Galiel made a point in the exchange with Lieutenant C that I wanted to use as a springboard for discussion. I decided to pull it into a separate diary because it is a kind of tangent but one I’d really like to explore; and since galiel has vowed to leave, it didn’t seem sensible to respond directly anyway.
Here’s what galiel wrote: “Gandhi’s will defeated the most powerful army on earth, Martin Luther King’s love defeated bully-clubs, vicious dogs and bayonets, Nelson Mandela’s struggle for freedom was won only when he renounced his violent methods of the past.”
These certainly appear to be strong examples of pacifists winning out over strong-arm oppressors. But are they, really? I’d like, in this diary, to look at these cases more closely and see if they don’t have a common thread, one nowhere to be found in many other human rights-oppressing totalitarian regimes around the world and throughout history.
Gandhi. This is one of those cases where a feel-good myth (George Washington chopping down the cherry tree, Mohandas Gandhi achieving independence via nonviolent resistance) just takes hold in the popular imagination, and is allowed to rest there unchallenged.
I would argue that the prime figure in terms of Indians themselves was Subhash Chandra Bose, and his Indian National Army. Not so much the military victories themselves (though there were some notable ones); but more the effect of the postwar INA trials in encouraging insurrection among the Indian armed forces. Once the British, already weakened by the war (and hardly the “most powerful army on earth”; only the US and USSR could have contended for that title at the time) saw they were losing the military, they figured they’d better just get out of the whole mess.
But even if you wish to impute more influence to Gandhi’s “Quit India” movement, the fact remains that it was Clement Atlee, the socialist prime minister whose Labour Party clobbered Churchill’s Tories at the ballot box, who actually gave India its independence.
So, in our first example it ultimately took a protracted struggle including both violent and nonviolent elements to persuade a British PM (whose views would fit right in here, btw) to allow India its freedom. Would a real iron-fisted dictator (Stalin, Saddam, etc.) have made the same choice as Atlee? Or would he have strung up Gandhi, Bose, et al. by the toenails from the get-go?
Martin Luther King, Jr. Boy, this one looks a lot like a homegrown version of the same thing. Didn’t it actually take the action of elected, liberal politicians to bring about the civil rights legislation of the ’60s? No disrespect to MLK Jr., who was an inspiring, unifying figure; but without a relatively liberal government that essentially felt shamed into action, the civil rights movement would have met the same fate it always had, at the hands of the Klan and the Southern police and courts.
Note also that, just as in Reconstruction times, it took federal troops to actually enforce civil rights for blacks in the South. Had the states in question been left to their own devices with no interference from the Feds, the bully clubs and vicious dogs would have likely been traded in for machine guns.
The GOP, starting in 1968 and especially after George Wallace’s career ended, has inherited the voters that stood against all those civil rights gains. And they’re still not too happy about it, but since they do have to stand for election outside the South, they need to at least pretend to be moderate to hold power. Thankfully for us–but still no proof whatsoever that nonviolent resistance would work against someone (a dictator) that had no need to worry about the secret ballot vote of the suburban bourgeoisie.
Nelson Mandela. Mandela’s freedom did not come from renouncing violence. He was imprisoned in 1962 (with help from the CIA). In a statement fully eighteen years later, he urged his people to take arms:
“We face the future with confidence. For the guns that serve apartheid cannot render it unconquerable. Those who live by the gun shall perish by the gun. UNITE! MOBILISE! FIGHT ON! Between the anvil of united mass action and the hammer of the armed struggle we shall crush apartheid and white minority racist rule.”
From the Wikipedia account:
“Refusing an offer of conditional release in return for renouncing armed struggle (February 1985), Mandela remained in prison until February 1990,”
So in fact, contrary to the revisionist history galiel expounded, Mandela explicitly refused to “renounce violence”, and is thus not even technically eligible to be considered in this evaluation of pacifist struggles for independence. Nevertheless, the end of the story is still instructive:
“when sustained ANC campaigning and international pressure led to his release on 11 February, on the orders of state president F.W. de Klerk and the ending of the ban on the ANC. He and de Klerk shared the Nobel Peace Prize in 1993.”
So once again, it was in fact the action of a man from and elected by the (guilty and shamed) dominant ethnic group, a man who later shared the Nobel, that freed Mandela and brought the franchise to his people. Sounds a little like Clement Atlee and LBJ, doesn’t it? Elected, relatively liberal white men, who could not escape the conclusion that injustice had prevailed for too long.
So how, I ask, are any of these examples remotely instructive when one is dealing with ruthless tyrants? Galiel also mentioned the eventual peaceful dissolution of Czechoslovakia. But what about the violent repression of the “Prague Spring” of 1968? Once again, the difference is that in 1989, Mikhail Gorbachev (an essentially benevolent man and again, a Nobel Peace Prize winner) was in charge of the USSR.
As long as we’re talking about 1989: how about Ceaucescu in Romania? He was a classic hard-line Stalinist dictator type, not dissimilar from Saddam in his absolute iron-fisted control of “free” expression, and his use of secret police. While other Eastern Bloc governments were more or less melting into oblivion in the wake of Gorbachev’s signal that he would not back them militarily, in Romania it took a violent overthrow (and subsequent execution of the dictator and his wife on live TV) to gain freedom.
So, bottom line: I have yet to see a pacifist (or, more specifically, an advocate of nonviolent resistance as the key to liberating the oppressed peoples of the world) show me a legitimate example where this strategy worked against anyone as ruthless as, say, Saddam Hussein. Absent that, and given that brutal dictators are not some rare occurrence but keep popping up like weeds again and again, I submit that for many of the world’s people, their only options are violence. Either the slow, steady, oppressive violence (or, almost worse, constant fear of violence) of a totalitarian regime; or the chaotic but hopefully shorter-lived violence of either a revolution from within or a liberation from without.
Those who cling to the belief that these people’s living nightmares can be ended through nonviolent means (“all you need is love”?) are in my view hopelessly naive. But more than that, they shirk their responsiblities as world citisens because they avoid dealing with uncomfortable truths and choices by staying in their safe fantasy world where they can mouth platitudes about “peace” that they know deep down will never have to be tested as any kind of applied policy. It’s easy (as Naderites surely know) to be “pure” and lob critiques from the outside when you never have to face the responsibility of governing, of putting ideals into action. That may sound harsh, but given how much heat I’ve taken from the camp I’m referring to, I think it’s fair to call my words mild by contrast.
for this thoughtful post. I hope it starts a lively debate.
One little quibble. I could be wrong, but I thought the ‘peaceful breakup of Czechoslovakia’ was a reference to the split-up into the Czech Republic and Slovakia as two seperate states, and not a reference to the break up of the Soviet Bloc.
Great diary.
Thanks, Booman! I hope it does attract more debate–I certainly poured my heart out here! But I thank you again for inviting me here, because this diary would never likely have come about on dKos.
I think you are right in your quibble, btw. Ah well, my main point still stands.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
is that it is not universally practiced. 🙂
Now I will shock you by saying you are right that Gandhiji did not liberate India.
The Brits were, quite simply, not making money any more. It had become too expensive. So, like an angry child they – but no, I will not get distracted or hijack your thread to make it be about Partition.
Occupations end when they become economically disadvantageous for the occupier.
Now wait, you say. If that is so why is Israel still occupying Palestine while 25% of Israeli children go to bed hungry?
Who is paying for that occupation?
It is not economically disadvantageous for the US. On the contrary, everyone who is intended to make money is making quite a lot of it.
There are pacifists and there are pacifists. Having one’s door kicked in, one’s kids dashed against the wall, one’s wife shamed and one’s brother hauled off to torture camp, excuse me, “interrogation facility” will not be an incident that leaves many pacifist survivors.
The most pacifist among us will do whatever we can with whatever we can lay hands on when some thug breaks down the door and seizes our children. Very few people will stand there and try to reason with the gunman, even if he shares a common language with him.
Those who might hesitate to discharge a firearm even to save their own lives will not think twice before shooting to save a loved one.
And now we come to one of the great injustices US policies do to the American people.
They are robbed of any claim to the moral high ground. If you are there in your house, and I force my way in and proceed to cause harm to life and property, there are few pacifists on earth who will judge you if you shoot me. On the contrary, there are quite a few who will question your sanity if you do not.
There are even fewer who will take my side, however.
Even if I explain that you had some really cool stuff that I think should belong to me, that I truly and sincerely believe DOES belong to me, because I am bigger and stronger than you, and have more money than you, and more guns, and besides, I don’t like you any more because we had a deal to steal some other people’s stuff and you started wanting more than I said you could have, plus I thought that you had some guns and I am the only one who gets to say who has guns, it will still be very difficult for me to find anyone who will agree that what I did was right.
This does not mean that Resistance, whether violent or non-violent is never a factor in ending occupations or toppling tyranny.
The marches led by Dr. King undeniably had an effect on public opinion that contributed to the economic infeasibility of continuing legal apartheid, and brought about some very visible cosmetic changes in American society that could one day blossom into something more substantial.
It would not have been economically feasible to deploy the numbers of gunmen and the array of weaponry that would have been necessary in order to prevent the March on Washington, for example, and once the people were there, exterminating them would have constituted grave risk to historical sites and federal employees, an eventuality which might, in light of the slowly shifting public opinion, have backfired on the politicians.
Television was relatively new, and the cameras were there, and coverage management was not the developed science it is today, so the images went out, and public opinion shifted a little more.
I realize that you, or someone, will wish to discuss the 911 events. They were, and continue to be, a very impressive exercise in coverage management, and a testament to Voltaire’s insightfulness:
Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities
Any arguments that the 911 events conferred upon Washington’s warlords any degree of moral high ground are credible as long as one accepts the “official explanation” of those events, events which the regime has decreed should not be looked into too closely, and under the circumstances, who can blame them?
Most Americans would really rather not look too closely, and while they may be unable to completely avoid questions that may cross their minds from time to time, the vast majority are wise enough to realize that questions whose answers one is neither ready nor able nor willing to accept are best left unasked.
To return to the topic at hand, I have mentioned before the unbridgeable gap.
Those who support US policies support them. They accept without question the premise that the US is the boss of earth, that self-defense is a privilege that can be bestowed or revoked only at the pleasure of Washington, stern father to a family of nation-children of varying degrees of naughtiness, who must be punished when they disobey, and allowed special privileges when they do as father bids them. Many people who believe this do not even realize it, so deeply is it ingrained, and many are quite sincere and well-intentioned about it. It would be funny and touching if it did not kill so many people.
There were certain points when reading your treatise that I wanted to rate your post “4” due to the myriad interesting tangents you hint at (and I’m going to get to some of those I’d enjoy elucidation on). But at other times, you really aggravated me by doing what so many lesser thinkers do: turn me and my position into a straw man. To wit:
–The paragraph that begins “Even if I explain…” is a nice caricature, and is probably fairly accurate as concerns many in the Bush administration, but does not deal in any way with my argument. But then, maybe you are falling into the trap of thinking that an essential identifying element of right and left, Republican and Democrat, is whether one supported the Iraq war. How, then, do you explain paleocons like Bob Novak on the one hand, and longtime leftists like Christopher Hitchens on the other? It’s not so cut and dried.
–You seem, in your discussion of 9/11, to be implying that I am like Fox News viewers in believing Saddam had something to do with the attack; or that he just generally deserved “payback” as a result of that attack. Let me assure you that I am someone who considers 9/11 to be one of the most overrated events in history (though I recognise the political reality that Democratic politicians must never appear to share this opinion), and I would be a happy man if I never had to hear the words “in a post-9/11 world” again.
–Your last paragraph is perhaps most insulting. I do not “accept without question” U.S. policies on anything. I was appalled, even as a teenager, by the Reagan administration’s backing of any number of Third World banana republic dictators and the right wing death squads that did their dirty work for them. (But how can it have been wrong for Reagan, Bush pere, and Rumsfeld to buddy up to Saddam then, but also wrong for them to oust him from power now?) Nor am I the type of person who flies “Old Glory” out front, or who tends toward browbeating jingoism. Fact is, I hated what Saddam was doing to Iraqis (Shiites and Kurds in particular), and it so happened that the U.S. had the power to get rid of him. That’s it. It doesn’t mean this government has carte blanche from me to carry out their foreign policy as they see fit by any means!
Your reference, btw, to “public opinion” in terms of the civil rights movement just strengthens my case. Brutal dictators don’t care about public opinion–that was exactly my point, that NVR has worked only when it has been used against governments run by elected politicians who do have to be responsive to constituents’ wishes.
I’ll close by just mentioning some subjects you alluded to briefly but did not discuss in detail. Maybe they are too far afield, but you started it! 😉
(1) “The Brits were, quite simply, not making money any more. It had become too expensive. So, like an angry child they – but no, I will not get distracted or hijack your thread to make it be about Partition.”
I’d definitely be interested in hearing where you were going with this.
(2) “[The Israeli occupation of Palestine] is not economically disadvantageous for the US. On the contrary, everyone who is intended to make money is making quite a lot of it.”
Do you mean the military-industrial complex, I suppose? Because it certainly costs the U.S. taxpayers dearly. I’ve long thought it an amazing testament to AIPAC’s clout that they have both the Democrats and Republicans largely toeing their line, even as opinion polls consistently show a clear majority of Americans are on the other side.
(3)“Any arguments that the 911 events conferred upon Washington’s warlords any degree of moral high ground are credible as long as one accepts the “official explanation” of those events, events which the regime has decreed should not be looked into too closely, and under the circumstances, who can blame them?”
I’ve already said that I find the national angst over 9/11 to be incredibly overwrought. But you seem to be hinting at something more–do you believe it was not in fact al Qaeda that carried out the bombings? (I know at least one other poster has mentioned that belief.) I don’t believe in simply accepting without question the dominant paradigm or conventional narrative, as I think I demonstrated in my discussion of Gandhi. But I simply haven’t seen any evidence for another explanation of 9/11. If you have some, please share!
Alan
Maverick Leftist
I’m sorry if you perceived anything I said as a personal insult.
Not sure why you would take it so, I think your questioning of US policies in Latin America and elsewhere is commendable, and this humble “lesser thinker” would encourage you to keep up that questioning!
I believe that the subject of Partition deserves its own thread. It is quite a large topic. While I see little indication that the subject is of great interest to westerners, quite a large chunk of the population of earth views it much the same way as many in the west view the Holocaust.
I did not mean to suggest that US policies toward its oil in the Middle East are intended to benefit you in any way, although you, and by you I mean anyone who pays US taxes are expected to pay for it, and I will appreciate any evidence of tax revolt on the subject; if it has happened, it has escaped my notice.
Brutal dictators do indeed have to be concerned about public opinion, that is why the traditional US client state module is losing its effectiveness, because increasing sums (provided by you) are needed in order to provide dictators with the weapons and money necessary to keep public opinion in check and away from the Palace gates. And that is why it is necessary to carefully manage certain perceptions and coverage of events. As communications technology has advanced, management techniques have also advanced. “News” in the US is big business. It is also managed superbly. Most American mainstream news stories consist largely of rewrites of government press releases. CNN has a charming custom of closing every story with a brief summary of Washington’s position on the topic at hand. News reports that stray too far from the press release are considered “unreliable” or “propaganda.” It is not necessary for the regime to take action to prevent you from having access, for example, to the Iraqi Resistance Report.
As I indicated in my previous post, I think that the 911 events also deserve their own thread, whether you, or anyone else believes that they were carried out by Saddam Hussein or an aging CIA asset in a cave is irrelevant. By this time, it is my opinion that anyone whose “gentle questioning” includes those events is quite aware of the wealth of information available regarding questions that, I will repeat, the majority of Americans are not comfortable asking, or hearing asked.
that you were a “lesser thinker”, though I now see I was unclear. Actually, what I meant was, essentially, “you’re clearly a really smart guy, so why are you throwing the same old crap at me?”
Partition does deserve to rank up there with the Holocaust. We’re talking hundreds of thousands or even millions dead, no?
Alan
Maverick Leftist
excellent diary, but I think you’re missing what NVR is good for. not that pacifism is really the same thing as NVR, nor that NVR is (really) the same thing as satyagraha. however, NVR — what you’re calling pacifism — does work. dismissing Gandhi’s and MLK’s effectiveness (I agree Mandela doesn’t qualify, but note that history is written by winners) is a mistake. responding to violence with nonviolence is a mistake too — usually — but there are other forms of oppression besides violence, and NVR allows you to take action without resorting to violence in turn.
first of all, NVR really does give you the moral high ground, and the moral high ground is a tremendous source of power. not power over, but power to. righteous anger, tempered with forgiveness, has the power of water on stone. this isn’t about singing kumbaya. it’s about making you look strong and self-confident and your opponent look weak, which makes people want to be on your side. people like Atlee. you can’t go around saying that Atlee was a linchpin without addressing whether Atlee was influenced by Gandhian populism. ditto LBJ with MLK. and MLK was no fool either — he knew he needed Malcolm and Huey playing bad cop in order to get the job done. winning a battle is a matter of tactics, but winning a war is, ultimately, a matter of morale.
if you want to get all realpolitik and practical, then NVR is a good strategy when you have the force of numbers and strong leadership but lack force of arms. NVR seems slow, and it does rely on having an opponent who’s unwilling or unable to wipe you out altogether, but that’s not as rare as you might think. viz the examples you mention, and it would work in Iran, Israel and Iraq today if there were leaders with large enough followings to make it happen.
yeah, people have a right to to defend themselves, and to rise up against tyranny. (attempting to institutionalize that principle is the most precious legacy of the founding of the US and it’s been remarkably successful in most respects.) nobody with any sense disputes that there are situations where NVR doesn’t work, but there’s no point throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
I think in many ways my diary and your “dissent” are complementary, rather than antagonistic. You are right that in building my case, I probably gave these men short shrift (MLK in particular; I tend to think Gandhi is very overrated, and you and I agree that Mandela was not a practitioner of NVR).
I think you have it just right that NVR gives one the “moral high ground”. Your analysis of the “good cop, bad cop” dynamic going on with MLK and the Nation of Islam and Black Panthers is spot on as well. I think it’s key to our meeting of minds that you recognise that NVR “does rely on having an opponent who’s unwilling or unable to wipe you out altogether”. And this was the main point of my diary, a point that I’m not convinced many on the left fully grasp.
Do you believe that NVR could have worked against Saddam? For that is, ultimately, the source of my rant here. I was for going to war to remove Saddam from power, because I didn’t see any other way the people of Iraq had a chance to get out from under his oppressive rule. And I still don’t.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
dammit, I had a feeling we were going to wind up agreeing 😉 I didn’t think you were really harshing on Gandhi and King, I just didn’t want the counterpoint to get lost.
rethinking the matter I guess NVR in Iraq wouldn’t make sense. I wasn’t thinking of NVR against Saddam — that would just be madness. I was thinking of the US playing the role Britain played in India, but I guess not. no tradition of noviolence to draw from, not enough stability, Sistani not strong enough or charismatic enough to pull it off… I didn’t think war was advisable though. revolution sure, or assassination. but invasion by another country?
dark times, all things considered, but not the first ones and not the last either…
Do you think if Bush and company were caught stealing the election with evidence everyone would have believed that he would have yielded power? Would NVR work against him and his administration and many of the voters who see him as the second coming?
but that’s a fascinating question. I think that, unfortunately, there is almost no evidence “everyone would believe”. For his base, there would be some kind of explanation a la “Rathergate” and the battle lines would be drawn. It would certainly be interesting to see what would happen if, say, 65% of the public believed the evidence. Since the military (the officer corps especially) would be likely to have a disproportionately high percentage of that remaining 35%, you could have a real tricky situation.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
Great diary and thread, btw. I meant to mention that. I threw it out for any and all to answer. Many generals were opposed to Bush and Rumsfeld and used the retired generals to lash out. Lower ranking officers probably supported Bush. Interesting ‘What if’ scenario, though.
Good point about the higher-ranking generals (obviously Shinseki comes to mind in particular). And yup, I tend to think the mid-grade officers tend to be the most hardcore Republican. And they have a lot of collective power, perhaps more than the generals.
But then there’s the enlisted men and women. A lot of them are conservative Southern folks. But there are a decent number of minorities too. Can you imagine if, in our imaginary situation, there was an order to fire upon a new “Million Man March” that was out to make Bush’s Jan. 2001 inaugural parade (replete with hurled eggs) look like a Sunday picnic?
I see that Shrub’s poll ratings have gone to an all-time low. It’s pretty difficult to stand the fact that we’ll probably have to deal with him as president for almost four more years–but if he is a discredited figure who is historically unpopular except among his rabid base, that could be tolerable. <g> (Though I still have not, since Election Day, heard him speak more than a couple words before I turned off the TV or radio, or clapped my hands over my ears and started humming…and I aim to keep it that way for the foreseeable future!)
Alan
Maverick Leftist
what Slacker said — a fascinating question, and I’ve already gone back and forth on it a couple of times just trying to figure out where I stand.
offhand, I think NVR would certainly work with the Bush fedayeen. those are by and large some weak-willed, malleable folks. the problem is that (IMHO) effective NVR requires strong leadership. if we had that… and even then it would be a hard row to hoe — mass media are too consolidated for a message like NVR to reach people in large numbers through TV or radio, so it would have to build up from the grass roots, and most moderns don’t seem to have enough attention span for charismatic populism a la King and Gandhi to get built up that way.
but by the same token I don’t worry about national martial law in the US. civil war I admit to worrying about, but a stable police state? ain’t gonna happen. there’s just too much of the place and it’s not homogenous enough. too much difference between north and south, between coasts and middle, between city and country. between blacks and whites. too many guns, too many ethnicities, too much communications technology, too many private armies…
You may be right about all-out martial law (though if a terrorist group ever nukes a U.S. city–and thanks to A.Q. Khan, that possibility is far from remote–I wouldn’t be so sanguine). But if we keep piling up Bush judges in the federal courts, we’ll get something nearly as bad: a “justice” system filled with the Rehnquist clones who essentially believe in the same philosophy expounded by Reagan’s AG Ed Meese: “if a person is innocent of crime, then he is not a suspect.”
Miranda warnings, the exclusionary rule, due process, and all the other “liberal technicalities” of our legal system could be gone before too long. Wouldn’t that be about as bad as martial law? If you ask me, leaving the law to the vagaries of unchecked prosecutors and cops might be almost worse, as you would never really know what to expect.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
It sounds like you are looking at the outcomes of NVR in history as a way of trying to decide if your support for the Iraq war was justified, “I was for going to war to remove Saddam from power, because I didn’t see any other way the people of Iraq had a chance to get out from under his oppressive rule. ” And while interesting, it seems to me that you have the question the wrong way around.
Instead of asking the unknowable “Could ‘action x’ (NVR) have resulted in ‘outcome y’ (Saddam’s removal)”, you could ask the more real and visible: Has the unleashing of war, the bombs and the guns, the death of so many soldiers and children, the destruction of so much of the past and a future littered with depleted uranium and on and on and on; has this war improved the terrible conditions of oppression under which the Iraqi’s were living? Is their future looking brighter?
Or was this not the ‘war’ you had in mind when you thought that war would be the necessary means for ending Saddam’s rule? I’m guessing you, like most Iraq war supporters had something a little tidier in mind, more in line with Rumsfeld’s flower throwing liberation. A tidy, contained little war that serves its purpose and goes gently off to the history shelves.
Be careful what you wish for. War is not some tame tool in your tool box, to be used and put away at will. It is easy to start, but oh so difficult to stop and the wages of death and destruction and suffering are terrible. “I was for going to war” makes a good epitaph, not a good foreign policy.
Yes, I did have in mind a different execution of the invasion. Not the one that Rumsfeld envisioned, though–quite the opposite. More like the “Powell doctrine” of overwhelming force. We should have been much more patient in building up forces, and State Dept. warnings about chaos in the war’s aftermath should have been taken into account and integrated into the invasion plan. And there should have been (and still should be) more effort taken to prevent incidents of so-called “collateral damage” (accidental killing of civilians). Though it was interesting to hear in the gifted middle school class I subbed at yesterday, that the kids were hearing back from their relatives serving in Iraq that there were too many restrictions, that soldiers can’t shoot someone, even if they are carrying a gun, unless that person shoots at them first. I’m sceptical of this, but it seems to be the meme that’s getting out there. Might be interesting to ask our resident officer, Lt. C, about that.
Still, I reply “yes” also to the question of whether the Iraqis’ future is “looking brighter”. I think most Iraqis, particularly the Shiites and Kurds, would also answer that in the affirmative–even those who have no love lost for the U.S.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
With all due respect I think that you shoulder a mighty moral burden in your confidant assertion that most Iraqis think their future is “looking brighter”. With their country under occupation by your soldiers, with the security situation making Iraq one of the most dangerous and deadly places on the planet to travel in, you still feel you have a good enough understanding of what is actually occurring there to know how most Iraqis feel about their future?
If you haven’t read her before, you may wish to check out Riverbend`s Baghdad Burning blog. She’s Iraqii and has been posting from Baghdad since the beginning of the war. I would particularly suggest her entry of February 12, 2005 touching on the `brighter’ future of Shiite women.
Regarding soldiers and restrictions, last weeks Guardian ran an incredible article, ‘One huge US jail‘, on Afghanistan, and the `meme’ that’s going on there, keeping in mind that things have generally been considered to be going `better’ in Afghanistan than in Iraq.
Sorry for the down-beat tone. I liked you diary. I just hate this stupid war.
I would agree that there are many aspects of the US occupation of both Afghanistan and Iraq that merit criticism. It would be a shock were that not the case, with Republicans in charge. But it’s really a stretch to try to claim that things were better under Saddam and the Taliban. As the Guardian article you linked stated, it is outside Kabul where things are still bad for women and others. That’s because the U.S. didn’t put enough troops there!
Alan
Maverick Leftist
I’m curious at what point you’d be willing to consider conditions might be `worse than under Saddam’. Take for example Plutonium Page’s diary today at DailyKos titled `Malnutrition has doubled in Iraqi children’.
“Almost twice as many Iraqi children are suffering from malnutrition since the U.S.-led invasion toppled Saddam Hussein, a U.N. monitor said Monday.”
Examples like this of real degradation of day to day life are very, very easy to find if you look for them. Do you have any factual examples of improvement in the daily lives of Iraqis in general (not feel-good individual anecdotes)? Vague notions of future `freedom’, or the fact that life under Saddam was hellish and therefore things must obviously be better with him gone, ignores the current reality of life as it is being experienced in the country at this time.
As for needing more US troops in Afghanistan, more troops would have been available if Iraq had not been invaded, but that didn’t seem to stop the people that thought that Iraq was a good idea.
As for life under the Taliban, I would agree with you here, that it is hard to imagine things could be worse now than back then in that it doesn’t get much worse than that. But in the same way that two wrongs don’t make a right, the removal of one horror does little if it is replaced with another. And keep in mind, the majority of people in Afghanistan live outside Kabul, where things are still `bad`.
This BBC poll is a year old, but I somehow find it hard to believe Iraqis, after their election of a government, are more likely now than then to wish they could go back to the “good old days”. There are more recent polls out there (all of which show a majority of Iraqis think things are better now than they were under Saddam), but none of the others appear to be from a source with the reputation of the BBC, and they might even be conducted by neocon fronts–so I didn’t bother to link them.
But honestly, it’s just appalling to me that you seem to argue that it would be better if we could go back to the old Saddam status quo. Why not say, “yes, it was a good idea to get rid of Saddam, but they should have done a much better job of taking care of poor children afterward”–in which case I’d agree wholeheartedly with you!
Alan
Maverick Leftist
First, on the BBC Poll: A year ago, it would still likely have been possible to find a decent amount of optimism for the future in Iraq, for exactly the reasons you keep stating: Compared to life under Saddam, how could things not be better? The reality of life in Iraq today however, has slid along way from a year ago. Also keep in mind the conditions reporters in Iraq are now working under. A year ago it was still possible, particularly in the British occupied area in the south, for some reporters to travel without military security. Today it is almost impossible. Almost all reporters leaving the Green Zone do so with a significant military escort. If you’re an Iraqi and a reporter comes to your school/ hospital/etc, with Hummers and machine guns, surrounded by a ring of fully armoured US soldiers, and you’re asked ‘Do you think your future is looking brighter’, are you going to say anything but ‘yes’? Regarding their `new government’, the UK Telegraph sums up the general mood pretty well in its coverage of this weeks second meeting of the national assembly: link “the proceedings degenerated into farce and chaos before they were eventually aborted altogether.”
You seem to assume that because I opposed an illegal war against Iraq that therefore I think it would be better to go back to the old status quo of life under Saddam. Nothing could be further than the truth. So to clarify what I do believe:
I believe that there is a reason that the most basic principal in medical practice is `Primum non nocere’, `First, do no harm`. The training and knowledge of a physician places them in society in positions of great power; the choices they make throughout the day can be literally that of life and death for others. `First do no harm’ is an ethical restraint on that power. You cannot amputate someone’s leg to fix a broken kneecap. You cannot give someone with a bad heart a heart transplant if you know they will not have long term access to anti-rejection drugs. Unless you have complete confidence that your treatment will improve things, or at the very least complete confidence that it cannot make things any worse, your ethical imperative is to not treat.
I believe in a foreign policy of `First do no harm’. The power of foreign governments has to have fundamental ethical constraints. I believe in and support the Geneva Convention, the UN Charter and the Nuremburg Principals. I believe that fighting a war is sometimes a necessary evil, for example fighting a war in self-defence. But I also believe that it needs to be a policy of last resort. I supported the decision for the US to go to war in Afghanistan because of the complicity of their government inenabling the attacks of 9/11. The Afghan war also offered the opportunity to remove the Taliban from power and therefore free the Afghan people from one of the most vicious regimes on the planet.
But to have gone to war simply as a humanitarian `intervention’ is a much more complex issue. Again, on wars of `intervention’ of believe in the the United Nations Charter, which the US itself wrote in large part, and signed and ratified as a treaty in 1945. It provides that–except in response to an armed attack–nations may neither threaten nor engage in warfare without the authorization of the UN Security Council. I believe in the UN Charter not on idealistic reasons but for practical ones; I think the UN/Security Council veto system to be grossly unfair on many levels, but as Winston Churchill said of democracy, I think it “is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.”
I would like a world where all people and nations would work together, where military intervention in places like Afghanistan and Iraq would be genuinely multinational and where the outcomes would be positive for all. But I think that positive outcomes are much more likely using the tools of diplomacy and trade.
Again, the axiom needs to be `First, do no harm’. Because when you’re talking about waging a war, you can’t so easily say `they should do a better job of taking care of children afterwards.’ Warfare and military power are great for some things: killing people and seizing and defending territory. To try to then layer humanitarian intervention into the mix is extremely difficult, which is part of the reason that the United Nations Charter so strictly limits non-defensive war. Under the very best of circumstances, with strong international support, and donations of personnel and funds, with full public transparency and accountability, I believe that good interventional wars could be fought. I think had Al Gore been president on 9/11, the people of Afghanistan would have had a shot at a decent future.
Because to fight a just war is an incredibly difficult task, and you would need an incredibly just leader to do it. George W Bush is no more capable of fighting a just war than he is of understanding the contradiction between his ideals of a `culture of life’ and his support of the death penalty. He is the very reason for the existence of the `First do no harm’ rule. Because good intentions, throughout history, have spilled as much blood as bad intentions. Living conditions have dramatically improved for so many people around the world over the last fifty years, and there is no reason that could not, cannot continue. But to look to impose peace and prosperity with guns and bombs, to lob dynamite into the powder keg of the middle east, doesn’t seem likely to me to be anything close to `First don no harm.’
(Apparently, I also believe in extremely long comment replies, and my apologies for that.)
No apologies needed on the long comment. I appreciate your taking the time to discuss these things in depth, rather than just sloganeering as some have done in the past.
In terms of polls and the Iraqi Assembly, it seems to me that you are insistent on tearing holes in any suggestion of good news there. While I can’t prove you’re wrong, I do feel that you are not really willing to assess the situation in an unbiased way that admits the possibility of a positive outcome.
I would say that your “first do no harm” analogy is actually pretty interesting. It would seem to suggest that a heart surgeon should not get out a saw and crack open someone’s rib cage to get at the heart!
On that we most definitely agree. But since you share my feeling that the UNSC veto system is unfair, maybe you can understand why it strikes me as unlikely that you can very often get anything done that way (though having a president who seemed to go out of his way to antagonise our allies from the get-go certainly didn’t help). And I just can’t go with the UN being a “democracy” as long as undemocratic, oppressive regimes make up the majority of the “voters”.
I don’t buy that. When you control territory, you can distribute all the food you want. Look at the Marshall Plan after WWII. What’s perhaps ironic is that here you seem to be providing an excuse for the Bush admin, while I refuse to accept it. They should simply have made humanitarian relief a higher priority, and put more money and effort behind it. No excuses!
I agree with this. One of the things that’s always been hard for me to explain about my position on Iraq was that I wasn’t really supporting “Bush’s war” but rather making a parallel, progressive argument for war–I couldn’t really support Bush, but I also couldn’t support the “No war in Iraq!” position. It’s a distinction whose nuance got lost in the sound and fury long ago, though perhaps it was partly my fault in not conveying it well enough (or maybe you don’t buy that as a distinction at all, I don’t know).
But I have to ask about this statement of yours (and sorry for taking this line out of order from the others, but I felt I needed to put it here, after the above explanation):
As I hope I’ve established, I never had much faith in Bush to do this right. But since my “parallel policy” of a humanitarian intervention with a progressive in charge was not an option, I had to decide whether a clumsy, Republican-style invasion and ouster of Saddam (with the moderately progressive Tony Blair involved as well, along with the Netherlands, the nation I admire most of all) would be better than no invasion at all. And I decided that it would be, and I still believe that.
But I can’t quite figure where you stand on that question. After all, life is often a “multiple choice” rather than “fill in the blank” situation. For those of us who are left of the Democratic Party on many issues (as I am with trade, living wage, corporate power, etc.), but still vote Democratic instead of Green or Socialist, we are familiar with this concept. Sometimes you have to take the best deal you can get (what is often called “the lesser of two evils”).
So, let me ask you very directly: if you were presented today with the choice (by some magical, mischievous godlike entity), would you push
the button marked “Reset”, which would undo the invasion and put Saddam back in power? Or would you leave things as they are?
Alan
Maverick Leftist
I’ve found this to be a very illuminating and fruitful discussion, so I made a diary with the intent of continuing it there. Is that cool with you?
Alan
Maverick Leftist
Happy to continue there, I’ve been enjoying the discussion and it will be interesting to see what others have to add. Unfortunately, I’ll have to wait ’til tonight before I’ll have a chance to do much commenting.
Cheers,
Maggie
Force is the loser, not NVR. You point to MLK as one advocating NVR whose adherence to the principle was not effective. I submit that the legislation was passed, troops were sent, laws were changed, and some small measure of faith in the constitution restored because of the actions of those “pacifists” in the civil rights movement at that time.
But for those pacifists, – each in their time, and each acting as they did – those countries would have likely suffered through civil wars. The three examples are valid.
except in instances where there is a similarly liberal national government in power that can be swayed by appeals to do what is right. In other cases (Tienanmen Square 1989, Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968, Iraq 1991…etc.), where the powers that be are not concerned with doing the “right” thing but only with maintaining power, the examples are utterly invalid.
Any of those three men, or men at all like them, would have been summarily executed (or perhaps after being tortured awhile) in Saddam’s Iraq, as would their followers or anyone suspected of following them. I know that’s difficult for people like you to accept, as it means that your philosophy is inherently a weak one, dependent on the goodwill of the oppressor class. But that’s what the historical record shows us, I’m afraid.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
I’ll agree that most dictatorial governments may not be moved to change by non-violence. But I will also agree with radish’s comment above, that the baby need not be thrown out with the bathwater.
People in non-violent movements rarely quote the Beatles, are fully aware the battle is not with “blue meanies”, and are generally far from naive. I don’t think the people of the Ukraine or Syria would agree with your characterization. Those who have lived, and are living, through your “nightmares” are the least likely to take up arms to create even more destruction.
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My comments were directed towards the first part of your diary, specifically the three individuals you claim had no effect. I disagreed. I don’t like labels very much, and broad bush strokes even less, so I have absolutely no idea what you mean by “people like you”.
Neither the South African, nor British colonial governments meet my definition of “liberal” during the periods in question. Nor, in my opinion, was the U.S. that liberal from the mid-fifties to mid-sixties. Quibble. The fact is the three non-violent movements effected change. Valid in their countries in their times.
I don’t think we have any way to factually debate the points you made in the first part of your post, so I’ll leave that as an ongoing disagreement about which we’ve both made our respective cases.
But I find your last paragraph curious. Let me take South Africa first, the instance where your argument is probably strongest. I did say the government was “relatively” liberal, and I did feel all along that de Klerk could be the weakest example. Nevertheless, as nobelprize.org notes in their brief biography: “In his first speech after assuming the party leadership he called for a nonracist South Africa”.
And then, of course, he went on to free Mandela, end apartheid, and (by granting the franchise to all South Africans) give up his personal power and that of his party and peers. I’d call that “relatively liberal” for the position he occupied at the time. It can be argued that he went out far more on a limb than LBJ or Atlee, since neither of them actually handed over the reins of power to the people their respective governments had been oppressing.
Still, Atlee and LBJ are easier marks. From Wikipedia:
“The landslide Khaki Election returned Labour to power in 1945, Attlee becoming prime minister. The party had clear aims. Several controversal policies were enacted, including the nationalisation of utilities and the long-distance transport system and the creation of the modern Welfare State. India became independent, and Britain’s role in Palestine ended. Attlee’s first Health Secretary, Aneurin Bevan, fought against general medical disapproval, to create the British National Health Service…”
On to LBJ (also Wikipedia):
“The Great Society program became Johnson’s agenda for Congress in January 1965: aid to education, attack on disease, Medicare, urban renewal, beautification, conservation, development of depressed regions, a wide-scale fight against poverty, control and prevention of crime and delinquency, removal of obstacles to the right to vote.”
So…those two are not “liberal” by what definition, exactly?!?
Alan
Maverick Leftist
LBJ: The country then, as now, was polarized into camps – the same two sides of a counterfeit coin – in which opposite poles competed for the middle. “Moderate” is the more accurate label. And I wouldn’t call Vietnam an exercise in liberal governance. Johnson’s administration will likely be judged on balance as slightly more liberal than Nixon’s, but not by much. Once you strip away the bullshit rhetoric, and look to the substance of the programs, I’ll stick to my characterization: moderate.
You and I agree generally on SA, and I agree with you on Atlee.
In an excellent diary, you set up an important debate.
It is, however, based on a wrong proposition. This is that “pacifism” will stop the ruthless dictator. No such claim is made and, if this is what the debate is about, then it is not arguable.
To Quakers, their witness to their peace testimony is a positive response to world conflict. They seek to set up the conditions of peace. They work assiduously on overseas aid, international education and active mediation in areas of conflict. They believe that it is through their personal lives that they set the foundation for a wider peace in the world.
This is what Ghandi did. He did not “force” a peaceful resolution on the British. He created the conditions in which a peaceful resolution could be achieved.
How and why pacifism works is a vastly complex subject. It cannot be answered in any one single post because it is one of the most difficult and complex philosophies that in action has many failures as well as successes.
William Penn wore a sword. He felt that this was essential in the America of those days but it troubled his conscience as it contradicted the peace testimony of his religion. “Should I abandon it?” he asked George Fox. “Put it aside when you feel able” was his reply.
In other words, pacifism is not about saying I abandon myself to dictators or to the aggression of others. It is about a passion for peace and about creating the conditions that enable people to feel that they can put aside the sword.
Don’t reach a conclusion on a single diary or on simplistic dialogue that examines a single proposition that argues that those who reject violence can end wars and remove dictators simply by making that declaration.
If you believe that there are better ways to resolve conflict than bringing opposing nations into a means of resolution involving death and destruction, then you are a pacifist. What sort of pacifist and how your beliefs can be made effective in different situations is where the hard study and work begins. It is no harder than learning how to wage war and infinitely more satisfying. A good place to start is here.
so Welshman, art thee a Friend since you know about Penn and his sword?
Of course,Penn did eventually remove his sword, a point you omitted.
And the point of our testimonies of Peace and Non-Violence are not pacifism in isolation. You could note that Penn’s colon, Pennsylvania, had peaceful relations with the previous residents of the land, becaus they treated them with respect.
Or one could note that Quakers were challenged into abandoning the owning of other human beings (slaves) because John Woolman pointed out how that was a contradiction with their basic beliefs — he did so non-violently, in a way that challenged but also allowed room for response.
There are many in the wider community of Friends who can accept reluctantly the use of force in certain situations. As a teacher I will be a mother bear when it comes to protecting those students in my charge. Before one consider this statement an exaggeration, I note that I teach in the district in which the DC SNIPERS shot a middle school student at a school frm which we do get about 10% of our 9th graders – this is a real issue to me.
While I knew Quakers who were conscientious objectors during WW II, I also have read the words of a Russian Orthodox Monk who spent WW II largely living by himself in a cave on Mount Athos in Greece. Father Sophrony said that he knew little details of the war, but often praed that the less-evil side would win. This prayer was a recognition that while war might in some case be unavoidable, it is always an admission of failure, a point that I have heard made more than once by professional soldiers.
Am I, as a Quaker, a pacifist? Not completely. LIke Penn, I still have my sword, albeit a metaphorical one. Insofar as I am willing to countenance violence of any kind, even verbal violence, I am still wearing a sword. It is an aspect of myself with which I struggle. Yes, I must speak truth to power, an expression which the Quaker Bayard Rustin probably derived from Islam. I can only do so when I forswear the use of power myself. I can and must confront wrong action when I see it, but I must remember the New Testament warning that even as I condemn the sin I must love the sinner.
I refrained from posting on this thread, because I thought much of the framing misses what those of us whom you would label pacifists believe. Let me offer a thought which is at least referenced in the diary I just reposted (it was on dailykos yesterday). Jesus orders Peter to put up his sword, noting that he could get legions of angels from his Father if that was what he wanted. Jesus chose obedience to truth — not resisiting the evil which confronted him, overcoming evil by death.
His action was that of a pacifist, which is why there are numerous Christian denominations which to this day forwsear violence. In the canons of the Orthodox Church a man who has spilled blood is considered ineligible for the Priesthood — and there were those in the early Church who lay down their arms rather than spill blood. Those on this thread might argue that Christianity did not become dominant in Europe until it was adopted by authority with power, starting with Constantine. And yet it is not the emperors that are honored, but rather one who is called The Prince of Peace. The Beatitudes do not glorify violence and force, but rather those who seek peace, who are meek and not arrogant.
War may be a continual part of the human condition. That does not make it right. When we must resort to force, whether as a nation state, a police force, in disciplining children, should we not be humbel enough to recognize that our need to resort to such action is an open admission of our failure to act fully in love and respect?
I do not insist that other believe as do I. I know that, as a Quaker, I accept Fox’s charge to walk gladly across the earth, answering that of God in each eprson I encounter. That charge presumes there is “that of God” in each person, that it can and does speak to me, even if that person refuses to acknowledge it. It is my charge to respond to that, not to any distortion or wrong act. That is, I may reject the bad act, even condemn it, but that does not give me license to reject that person, no matter how bad the act I reject.
We are chastised in the NT about being so concerned about the speck in our neighbor’s eye that we ignore the log in our own. On a different level, I accept that I — like most people about whom I have known — have a tendency to want to justify that I have done, to find my own words and actions acceptable. But some of my actions and words are wrong, and I need to so acknowledge.
Pargt of the task to seeking peace and pursuing it begins in oneself. One cannot truly be a pacifist if one is violent within oneself. Thus since I still contain violent strands in my personality — most evident when someone cuts me off on the highway and I think vile thoughts about him — I am not yet a pacifist. I am rather, one who values peace and abhors the use of violence, even as in sorrow I recognize that times it is still unavoidable.
I wecome those who put themselves at risk fo death and injury to witness to Truth. Some on this thread hae talked about how in some societies the kinds of witness of a King or a Gandhi would merely get them summarily executed. Perhpas. But some of these also bear witness in a powerful way, as did Mother Maria of Paris when she stepped forward in the pace of another in a Concentration camp. Modern examples might include the imprisoned rightful leader of Burma, who has foresworn violence, and whose continued presence is a thorn in the side of the military dictatorship. Once such are visible, it becomes risky for authoritarian governments to kill them — her presence, even under house aarrest, is far safer for the generals than were they to kill here, becaue then she would not be a force against an eruption of violence. And those who are killed, like Archbishop Romero, often serve a s focal point for a non-violent resistance that can transform a government.
Seek Peace and Pursue It. Answer that of God in each person. Walk Gladly on the Earth.
And recognize that no matter how smart each of us, how much insight we believe we each have, none of us has all knwoedlge, all of us make mistakes, and a little humility in our public discourse might be a good thing.
Teacherken
You write powerfully to the Quaker religious faith behind the Peace Testimony. I have some personal difficulties with this Christian based orthodoxy, but that is true for many of us in the Quaker world.
I think that a number reading your comments will have difficulty in getting through this overlay of your religious basis to the arguments that you present. This would be a pity because you make some important points. It is not necessary to accept the faith from which a person’s belief in the peace process arises. A pacifist view of world affairs is not owned by any one religion nor indeed by religion at all.
This is not to say that I am not grateful for nor do not value your personal description of the source of your inspiration.
With a tempering of some of its religiosity, I find much in your post with which I am in full agreement. I particularly agree with your last paragraph.
Thanks.
I sometimes think that those who argue against pacifism fail to realize how much those willing to live by generally pacificistic tenets have brought to their lives , that is, the lives of those who argue against.
I just finished posting on dailykos in a thread in which question of jury nullification came up. Most who are not Quakers do not realize that the principle of jury nullification first arose in the trial of the Williams, Penn and Mead, in 1670 for their refusal to give hat honor. The judge ordered a guilty verdict, the jury refused, the judge threatened, tried locking up the jury, all to no avail.
That those who do not believe in swearing oaths have the constitutional right to affirm is in part due to the presence of Quakers in the US< and not just in Penna —
that many have the right to do either alternative service or non-comatant service even in war time is due to those who were prepared to go to jail rather than bear arms.
that much of the important relief and reconciliation work in the world is traceable to the historic peace churches, including not only Quakers, but also Brethren, Moravians, Mennonites and Hutterites.
A nose is not supposed to function as an ear. Not all may feel called to be pacificist, but they should learn to be grateful for those who feel that calling. As those whose personal beliefs will never mallow them to bear arms (and I am NOT in this catetory as I noted) need a certain amount of appreciation for those who may do so reluctantly in order to protect others.
And now I must get back to my task for the day, of completing and packaging my portfolio for National Board Certification as a teacher — cannot explain now to those who do not know what that means, but trust me, it is a lot of work.
“If you believe that there are better ways to resolve conflict than bringing opposing nations into a means of resolution involving death and destruction, then you are a pacifist.”
Better ways in an ideal world? Or better ways that will consistently work to liberate humanity from tyranny? Because that’s the key distinction I see.
Alan
Maverick Leftist