It seems that the lives of Terri Schiavo and Pope John Paul II are approaching an end, albeit one much more quickly than the other.
Discuss: compare and contrast, using feeling words to describe your reactions, and speculating briefly on what will happen in the future.
This is not a graded exam. At least not in this lifetime.
I feel:
I feel very sad about Pope John Paul. I am a dirt-worshipin’ heathen (no joke). But there is so much I admire about the pope. PBS did a lovely bio of him a couple years ago … his early life, his poetry — his poetry!, his support of Polish causes. Lest we forget, he’s a brainy, scholarly guy!
And I’ve greatly admired his stands against war (thank god!), against the death penalty (YES!), and even — for him — his concurrent opposition to abortion. Because it all weaves together, rather unlike some other “Christians” and “Catholics” we know.
I feel an immeasurable sense of relief for Terri Schiavo, almost as if I were trapped in her body. She’ll have peace. And perhaps the ugliness will fade in time. I hope so.
Susan, what do you think will happen after these two shuffle off their mortal coil? I’m not typically prone to hysteria, but I wouldn’t rule out a riot in Pinellas Park after Terri goes. As for John Paul… well, no one ever got rich trying to predict what the cardinals will do.
Your thoughts?
I live in South Philly. It’s a Italian-catholic neighborhood. I get the strangest wacko Mary-cult flyers in my mail slot all the time.
The neighborhood is not very well integrated and there is a lot of Archie Bunkerism around.
If they elect an African pope, there may be a riot right outside my door.
I didn’t realize you were so close! We’ll have to organize a meetup sometime…
work in Harrisburg. Philly rocks! by the way.
PastorDan, that’s so hard to predict. I think the pope’s passing will be handled in the Vatican’s usual methodical, byzantine ways. (Btw, I see that the Vatican now has a Web site — didn’t realize they didn’t.)
Schiavo: The nutjobs will probably get arrested some more but, you know, I’m just cynical enough to think that — oh, give them a week or two — they’ll mostly forget about it and find something new to get angry about. (Because I truly believe their piousness is birthed from their anger and their angry lives, not from anything spiritual.)
Interesting subject. I have very torn feelings about Terri, I wish the whole situation could have been handled differently.
I think this country needs a dialogue now about the method of dying in cases like this. Dogs and murderers in my opinion are treated with more compassion regarding their deaths.
Should we consider other methods than starvation, once the decision has been made in the courts as in this case.
What about using lethal injections mercifully given in death sentences in many states.
This case has made me see that while I would not want to be kept alive perhaps, I would not want to die of starvation and dehydration.
When my father was dying from a stroke, after he had triple bypass, the veterans hospital where he was, said that they never remove feeding tube or water, but do remove resussitation and antibiotics. No matter how long it takes, feeding is continued. Thankfully I did not have to watch my father die of starvation, that would have been too cruel.
He was unable to communicate due to trac. tube he pulled out, the only thing we could do was to try to read the expressions on his face.
Also I think we should do some clarifying about whether this removing feeding, can be done on the orders of a judge and with hearsay evidence regarding her wishes. I very much think that if her close immediate birth family opposes her death and wishes to care for her themselves, they should be allowed to do so.
Not debating the case, just the methods used to bring about the solution.
I can’t really compare her case to the Pope, other than I don’t think in the Pope’s case he would be starved to death.
I was a bit weirded out back in 2003, when we had to put down our beloved cocker spaniel Patch. The vet was telling us about the process, and made the offhanded comment that we should be so lucky as to go the way Patch would.
It wasn’t that the doctor was being morbid: I just knew that he was telling the truth…
My vet told me something similar and I can’t help but agree.My vet has allowed me to hold my ailing animals to the end,while he gives the injection and I stay with them. It seems the best way to me, to die painlessly held by someone who loves me. I don’t understand why we won’t humanely send people on if it is their wish? I know it would be mine.
PD(iddy), check out my new diary. I don’t have any great thoughts in it … it’s about the great new New Yorker piece on Schiavo.
approach to death has been very consistent about his views on death. And I think that is a very wonderful thing to see. The Pope is concerned that our society makes life disposible, which is a valid concern considering other aspects of Western culture. While I disagree with the Church on the ability of civil society to sort out gray areas, I absolutely agree with its overall concern. Life should not become disposibile, especially at the hands of corporations or other large organizations.
I believe that individual, informed, loving choice is essential in matters of death. The Pope has made a choice to not only continue living, but also to continue serving in his capacity as the Holy See.
I’d prefer to not comment on Terry’s death – as I believe that her situtation is a family matter. She, after all, is not the Pope.
How do you know she’s not the pope? Have you ever seen them in the same room together?
of the Church makes it a bit easier to know.
I feel terrible for Terri’s family, especially those who did not want this dragged out into the world for all to see and hear. Family matters should remain just that. We can debate the merits of death with dignity outside of the context of a single family’s ordeal.
I’m absolutely in agreement on that one. I think it’s entirely inappropriate to focus any (in my opinion absolutely necessary) debate on “right to die” issues on the specifics of one case.
However, her family waived their right to privacy by bringing in the likes of Randall Terry. I think it’s bad for the country, but not out of any respect for privacy.
and others have a right to privacy. What her parents have done does not open the flood gates, in my view.
I read a book yesterday called “My Descent Into Death: A Second Chance at Life” by UCC pastor Howard Storm. Pastor Storm’s description of his experiences following his brief death and return to life are as detailed as any I’ve read. It’s worth a read, to get something of a first hand look at what will happen to the Pope and Ms. Schiavo after they shed their mortal coils.
Thanks for the resource. Here’s a site with some excerpts from the book:
http://www.near-death.com/storm.html
I haven’t read the excerpts yet, but have read a variety of sources on the subject over the years. I understand the argument that such are caused by biology, but biology has yet to explain to me how those having an NDE are able to describe precisely what is going on in other places (e.g., who’s wearing what, conversations in another room or even another part of town).
Terri Schiavo the person passed away in 1990. Terri Schiavo the biological organism is now following suit, as was the wish of Terri the person. And the latter does not suffer as the body dies, since she no longer dwells within it.
Where then is Terri the person? For me, absent contrary evidence, the answer is ‘nowhere.’ Where does the flame go when the candle is put out, or the waves when the wind goes quiet and the ocean falls to rest? They go nowhere, they simply cease, and the energy takes other forms. As Vladimir Nabokov put it in Speak, Memory: “The cradle rocks above an abyss, and common sense tells us that our existence is but a brief crack of light between two eternities of darkness.” Or as my compatriot, the great existential philosopher Peter Wessel Zapffe (1899-1990) wrote on his deathbead of his ‘view from the final cairn:’ “The human race comes from Nothing and departs to Nothing. Beyond this, is Nothing.”
As to the Pope, I cannot sincerely say I hold him in high esteem. That is specifically due to his stance against contraception, which I find insane and, when touted as divine will in poor, AIDS-ridden countries, almost pathological. (Though I wouldn’t go as far as the aforementioned Zapffe, who advocated the abolition of the human species by a global agreement to reproduce below replacement rates – for the sake of both humanity and the Earth.) I don’t personally know any members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, yet I am fairly confident that the Pope was never seriously considered for the Peace Prize due to this, his many virtues notwithstanding.
As to the future, I predict that the sun also rises tomorrow, and the day after that. But I could be wrong.
I admire the Pope for continuing to live as long as he’s alive. Great example for all of us in our graying world.
The silver lining in what has been done to Terri’s family, I think, is the wake-up call for all of us to make a decision about our medical care while we are able.
Since there is no proof one way or the other about what happens when our bodies give out, my choice is to believe their spirits will live on. Will it be different for a pope and a “regular” person? Based on the Beatitudes, I doubt it, but I don’t count myself as one who knows the details.
Maybe that’s not the future you’re taking about, but thanks for the great question!
how long would they keep the feeding tube in? I hope he has a living will…
Forever and a little while longer.
Looks like there’s a chance we might find out… interesting.
Because we all desperately need some comic relief after this week past, here’s Mrs. Betty Bowers, America’s best Christian (sorry, Pastor Dan, she says she outranks you), on the Schiavo show.
The only word I have to describe my feelings about Terri Shiavo being allowed to pass on freely is relief, I can’t truly feel sorrow for her at this point, the sorrow would have come many years earlier had I known her. I feel deeply for her husband.
As to the Pope,I don’t wish him harm or pain and I hope he passes quietly without either. I can’t say I’ll mourn deeply, I have gay friends and relatives and I am a pro choice, “womanist” type so we never would have hit it off,sadly. Anyone who characterizes gay marriage as “an ideology of evil” isn’t someone I can say I’ll miss.I did think his stand against the war was good and brave though. Credit where it’s due and all.
The future? Well, in my dearest dreams the next Pope, now known as Sister Helen Prejean, has a more welcoming heart.
And the public, disgusted and saddened by the blatant political games being played out and around the Shiavo case turn against the politicians involved. In my fondest wishes many religious people also recoil from the fringe of the right who want to dismantle the constitution and destroy the judicial branch of our government. This swells the ranks of the more progressive churches and there is much rejoicing!
I can dream, right?
but I’d prefer that you hope…
Now I’m all teary, but in a good way! Can we draft you for Pope? I say it’s time for a change there anyway….
Regarding the pope: I highly recommend Peggy Noonan’s thoughts on the subject, as well as this amusing bit, and some more serious thoughts that I expressed to Andrew Sullivan, available here.