I think it is kinda odd that Bill in Portland Maine’s award winning Cheers & Jeers series has been front-paged over at dKos.
I think it kind of permanently blows up the ratings system over there. But what do you think?
Why did Markos promote it?
Should we have recurring diaries?
Are YOU going to write them?
P.S. This is not naval gazing…we’re staring at someone else.
P.P.S. I guess you should all give each other mojo.
How does this move blow up the ratings system over there? Since C&J ALWAYS got onto the RecList, doesn’t this move open up a space for another diary to get that exposure? I’m sure Markos promoted it because it is award-winning and extremely popular.
I get the impression sometimes that Markos is barely aware of what is going on in the dKos diaries and that he had to read about C&J on another site before he even knew about it. I get this impression from the fact that he often writes his own post about a subject when he could very well promote a diary on the RecList with like, um, 200 comments already. I really like the way you promote from the diaries instead of re-inventing the wheel, you know.
I’ve never been a big fan of C&J mainly because by the time I notice it there are already like 300 comments. When the thread gets that long, for unknown reasons, I lose rating boxes and can’t participate.
But, yes, please, give me some mojo. I’ve been very depressed this week (hubby didn’t get the job at Quantico) and haven’t been participating here as much as I should. I can feel my TU status slipping away from lack of activity. Altho, it seems useless so far since the ONLY hidden comment is a test. Still, I’d like to be combat-ready if we’re ever invaded by trolls.
Having read the thread and some items – I’m going to pop this in at the top…then go give some mojo! 🙂
As one of the Irregulars on C&J I am watching some changes this week – some I like and some I don’t. But want to describe it here.
There have always been some that came just for the mojo. Among the irregulars I have watched a tightening of the 4’s this week. Fewer if any 4’s for some dumb comment that’s not snarky. The Irregulars tend to do this after the diary had slipped from the rec list.
I think there are about 30 of us that swipe at each other with snark – the Irregulars and it’s turned into a funny family group. We spend more time in the chat room now…
TU abuse and 4’s – we had our first troll this week on C&J. I posted an alert in the chat room (about 12 people there). Of those 12 – at least 8 had never supertrolled anyone! Most of them are thoroughly intimidated by posting comments in some of the other diaries. Not because they aren’t smart or capable, they really are intimidated by the ‘shark tank’ as we call it.
There has been a change of tenor a dKos – simply based on it’s size now. People are seeking a sense of community that has been lost with the growth of dKos. That sense of understanding the personality of the diarist. I know a lot of the names here from my early days a dKos, from First-Draft, and from Liberl Street Fight. I follow the diarist – and I remember reading a lot of Booman. 🙂
Recurring diaries – provide that sense of community.
Will I be writing that diary – nope. Never written a diary – maybe here or maybe not.
That’s a nice sum-up.
I am someone who used to be in the kiddie pool, but now swims with the sharks because my posts were always diary length.
I wish Bill would start his own blog, yet still cross-post at dKos on occasion, like Booman has with this wonderful site.
That way all the kiddies will be in one nice and friendly pool and the sharks will be far out to sea.
Do I have selfish reasons? Sure, my weekly diary, which I would post as a diary in a heartbeat if Bill put up a separate blog.
The great thing would be that the intimidation factor that exists at dKos wouldn’t be a factor at all. Anyone would feel free to put up a diary at Bill’s because it’s such a warm and inviting place.
Like Sarge, I fear what this move will do to the atmosphere in C&J, even though I rarely stop in nowadays.
In the diaries it was a safe haven, on the front page they just threw the kiddies in with the sharks. Makes no sense whatsoever to me.
It doesn’t help that the mojo issue has also been front-paged by kos recently. Also confused the hell out of me:
C&J is a mojo problem so I’m changing it so TU is harder to get.
I’m moving C&J to the front page.
WTF? HUH? To kill it? I just don’t get it.
Wait a minut…this isn’t dKos. <g>
BIPM’s diaries are always a hoot, but I find myself reading them only rarely (too much other stuff zooming by).
I agree that it skews the rating system – though FP or on the reco list would not make much difference, I think. However, it is too easy an opportunity for potential trolls to gain mojo and ultimately TU-status.
– Kos made C&J a front-page feature because it always take up one slot on the reco list, effectively reducing that list to nine entries.
As to mojo, he has raised the TU treshold for everyone in order to offset the effect of C&J.
I have nothing against recurrent diary entries as such, but I must admit that C&J is not my cup of tea. Haven’t even taken part; I guess I am a bit alienated both by the absurdly over-inflated ratings and the somewhat – how to put this – forced gaiety. It comes across like a noisy room of cheerfully yelling people. But that’s just my personal (dis)taste.
Carnacki’s happy stories I like much better. Sadly they come at a time when I am often not online. Perhaps he might do a rerun here?
It would be nice to have a similar (but different) recurring diary here. Carnacki (and Ms. Carnacki, when she fills in) have such good stories, they always get me thinking about things I remember fondly.
As for C&J, I keep laughing at all the goings-on about mojo that we’ve seen there lately (it reminds me of high school). I enjoy C&J, but I ususally try to check it out before it gets too long.
Thank you for the kind words. I just posted one here, but it’d be nice if some one else picked up the ball and ran with something similar here. I think it helps build community. So many of our diaries and posts are depressing it’s good to remember the good things too.
Your wish, my command. Let me know what you think of the format and when is the best time to do it.
See post above. It would be nice if someone or a group of people rotated the happy diaries here. I’m gonna run out of happy stories to post about.
Carnacki, I’d give a Happy Story diary a try if you want.
Is anybody else interested?
Absolutely! I’d be very willing to be a Happy Story guest diarist. 😉
You got next week here and MindMouth the following week. Is that a plan?
Okay by me!
I’ve never even read one all the way through… I guess I just don’t get it. I never even knew it was a mojo orgy until I read it in another diary. I guess it’s OK on the front page, but it kind of ticks me off that Kos upped the TU status requirements, but I understand it. I agree that there is a lot of repetition at dkos… a whole lot. I don’t think we need regular features like that here. Booman, you are very contientious about getting good stuff on the front page… I do love it here. oooo I’m getting all warm and fuzzy… mojo for all!
I don’t post often, but I read every day and have dispensed much mojo. Am I guilty of breaking the system? Does that qualify me as part of the Vast Left-Wing Conspiracy? Woo-hoo!
I’m not sure front-paging makes much of a difference, as far as mojo dispensing, because plently of mojo was dispensed there before, and much mojo will continue to be dispensed.
I don’t see the problem with it being “an insane mojo rave”. By and large the people who post there are good community members, as is evidenced in their participation on other threads. Is there really a problem with many C&Jr’s becoming TU’s? Is there an upper limit to the number of TU’s Kos can have?
If you see TU status as a way of making sure there are enough people on troll patrol, rather than as an ego boost, I don’t see the problem.
And it frees up a spot on the rec list. THAT’s what I think needs to be changed. Recommmended diaries stay up for far too long in many cases.
.
Exactly. You pinpoint the recent difficulties at dKos, lack of a decent moderation; the site is losing it because of hate and visciousness. dKos membership increased by some 50% since the elections. On recent diary publications, you can get ruined by some jerk who just came on to join dKos and starts troll rating within his first 5 ratings. In such a large crowd you always have a number of fools who agree and jump on the jerk’s bandwagon, leaving no space for dissenting opinion or topics to be discussed. The death of Pope John Paul II as an example, how the dKos community behaves.
The moderation should be in the hands of Super TU with a long and active standing in the community. Even after six months I feel uneasy to troll rate anyone at dKos, due to great right and responsibility towards freedom of speech. TU should not be a mathemathical “privilege” given by chance.
I love what is small and beautiful. Where in a community people say hi, good morning and how are you feeling today. In discussions and debates let the sparks fly, but remain civil and decent, especially to those with a critical note or opposite view.
Remember, nothing is worse than dictatorship by democratic, majority rule; not mindful of protecting the rights of a minority. It is a blueprint for brown shirts and a new führer.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
I got myself into a silly extended exchange with a user who in my opinion has hijacked two threads over the last 24 hrs. I’m a bit slow on the uptake, but have now come to realize that he has no intent of reasonable discourse.
Will ignore from now on.
And that was in response to your comment below, Oui.
What I have been doing is looking for hidden comments and then go to the page and find out why they were troll rated and if I disagree with the troll rating (and after checking the posters comments and history out) I post a comment right below the troll rated Saying “I see the thought police have been here, and if you want to engage in some civil discourse come to Booman Tribune and post a link.
Inviting trouble from kos.. 😉
From my perspective, it is not an issue of ‘thought police’. It’s rather about courtesy to the diarist and other users.
the comments were ones that we could say here easily on this site and I really don’t care what Kossers think because I find it pretty much unusable for me at this time. They can even ban me, I do not care, but usually no one even sees my comment except for the poster in question, because the diaries are long dead by then.
My home is here now on Booman!
Some jerk at dKos gave grannyhelen a low rating, I usually want to screen the user ID, and I found in one of grannyhelen’s comments a mention of Booman. Result, love at first sight – again – and I was hooked.
I still post at dKos, but in a precautionary manner, not able to discuss all topics. Six months has made a great difference at dKos. Perhaps lacking the foe before an election, a lot of debates and discussions miss feeling of unity, working together to some common goal.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Just taking a little break from my client project, and I wanted to say hello, good evening, and how are you feeling today?
(For the record, that comment was completely devoid of snark, I’m just trying to participate in your small, beautiful world 🙂
.
and wish you success with client project!
Trust we’ll have a chance to meet at Boo’s during weekend.
Enjoy your day, it’s just past midnight in NL.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Another point of agitation are persons with strong opposing views, starting to repeat multi replies on the same thread in a diary. In particular, for a diary with few comments, such a person hijacks a discussion by repeatedly posting similar comments like a spoiled child not getting it’s way. It’s a terrible display and poor manner, in fact making a statement of one’s illiteracy to make a single, powerful argument or to suggest your readers are so ignorant they need a repeat performance.
I remedy such a situation by posting one single reply, with the clear intention it will not be a long chat on such a basis. Other than this, I usually decide to wear armor and ignore the multiple irate comments.
It does spoil the intent of a diary to give everyone a chance to take part in the discussion, usually moderate readers just shun away and leave.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
The effect on mojo in C&J is the same as when it was a diary. I will never understand why Kos raised the bar on TU status, it doesn’t have any effect on users that post in C&J. It only effects those that don’t, making them more likely to post in C&J to regain TU status.
I like having C&J on the front page.
I hate it when I do that.
First thing I do with a scoop site is wipe em.
but first, let me point out that I’m already doing a recurrent dairy series. Granted it’s being cross-posted from Kos where it’s been running for a few months now, but it is getting comparatively more attention here than it is there. It’s all a means to an end, which is getting the stories out there where people can read them and hopefully spread them around some more.
The first thing I want to say about C&J is that Bill is a great commentator. I doubt there would be a C&J community if he weren’t. I also think Kos elevated him to front page status because it would clear a spot in the recommended list, but I would also like to think it was because Bill’s commentary is worthy of being read by a wider audience than he used to collect in the kiddie pool
That extends to stories found by the C&J Irregulars too. In and among the fart jokes, margin races, pootie pictures and other silliness that happens at C&J, there are some solid stories that might otherwise go unnoticed because, while there might be diaries up about them, no one has time to read all the diaries on Daily Kos. And besides, a little frivolity and humor is a good thing. If I can’t dance I don’t want your revolution and all that.
C&J has always been an insane mojo rave as long as I’ve known about it, of course. That was fine when it was the kiddie pool, but now that it’s up in the shark tank I agree it’s a bit more of a concern. I also admit cheerfully that I have no idea what to do about it, if anything. Moderation is being used in ways that were never intended by the people who created Scoop, which was itself (if I remember right) written for Kuro5hin, which in turn was a reaction to Slashdot and some of its perceived problems. Slashdot has been around a lot longer than Daily Kos and has found ways to cope with its troll population, including hidden moderation (moderators are selected randomly according to criteria presumably related to activity) and meta-moderation (rating moderations as “fair” or “unfair” in an effort to counter moderation abuse). I’m not sure those options would work for Daily Kos, and as I’ve said before, suggesting to Kos that he implement them is a lot like telling someone else how he should spend his own money.
No system is perfect, and any system that can be created can be gamed for the benefit of those who want to take the time and effort to do so.
I realize that I’m rambling, so I’m going to cut this off. My bottom line, I guess, is that I’m OK with C&J on the front page. Like any living thing, it will grow and adapt, or it will die. Hopefully the former.
Went over to Kos yesterday and posted some comments in a few threads, but nothing major. I wasn’t aware of the changes to the TU system there.
I have no problem with C & J being front-paged there, if for nothing else but to free up a spot on the Rec’d list, as well as lightening the front page up a bit over there. It’s all so….serious. I’m a fan of serious, but I’m also a fan of a little fun and games to break up the monotony.
I am most appreciative of everything Booman is doing here for us – especially his consulting the community about what we would like to see. Good on ya, Booman. I am also a fan of Carnacki’s “Happy Story” diaries, although I’m usually not online when they’re posted – I read them later but usually don’t comment because I think too much time has passed. Recurring diaries here at the Boo would be fine with me. I’d even be willing to write one, on something the community is interested in. However, if we don’t have them, that’s okay too. I think we’re clicking along just fine. 😉
I had my first<u>Its Monday, Bloody Monday</u> diaries this week, said it was a series and none of you noticed.
Typical. I’d sulk but I have an excellent port in front of me to get over reading dismal diaries, so I won’t.
.
and we would have noticed series.
No just a jest to hide embarrassment for missing your diary
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
I’m sorry Welshman – I was working that day and only was able to come by once. I think I missed that one, but I’ll look for it. 🙂
I’ve been to C&J maybe twice – I really like BIPM’s commentary and links, but I don’t have time to click through even those and read them, much less the comments. One of the times I actually read comments (iirc) you posted a whine (is that what you guys call a whinge?) about how no one had read your beautiful diary that you worked so hard on.
So I went looking for your diary and loved it and subscribed to your diaries. This was pre-Shottle or around that time. One of the best things I ever did at dKos – (imagine a long flowery tribute to your writing and thoughtfulness here, and blush). But I can’t subscribe to diaries here.
Please, BooMan, please, please, please. Help us prevent appalling faux pas’s like missing a Welshman diary here at BooTrib.
I will try to add that feature.
In the meantime, you can do the following.
If you see a comment by Welshman, or any other diarist you like, you can click on their name, and go to their diaries page. You’ll see their most recent diary up top.
Or, use the search feature, and search for the user you want, then go to their diary page.
It’s a little tedious, but it works.
go to their diaries page and bookmark it in your browser. I have a “BooMan subscriptions” folder, that I just added Welshman to.
But then you have to go through each one, open their page, and see if they have anything new. A subscriptions list that shows the new diaries you haven’t read yet, works much better. So even though I’ve found a work-around for now, I’d still like to see the subscriptions feature here.
Thanks.
Mixed thoughts about C&J on the dKos front page. I can understand freeing up a recommended slot, and that more people will get to see it this way, but as a diary, it’s around all day so you can look at it when you have time. On the front page, it scrolls away quickly.
On the other hand, DSL is not available out here in the boonies and my poor little 56k modem puffs and pants trying to keep up with all the picture-posters.
Bottom line: I look at it, and sometimes comment, when I can get to it fairly early, before the thread gets too long.
And I don’t know what changes were made in the TU stuff over there. Can someone enlighten me?
Here, I like the idea of recurring diaries. I like that substantive work is visible longer. I like that things like Susan’s diaries on torture, so painful to read, stay in front of us long enough for multiple readings. I like the softer tone, less shouting, less confrontational, the sense that new voices will more readily get a chance to be front-paged.
Oh, and I like the colors better.
But I don’t seem to have TU status here. Guess I’ll have to comment some more, yes, Booman? Did I say enough good things? You said the check would be in the mail . . .
.
Ratings changes? by kos Sat Apr 2nd, 2005
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
You can speed your reading experience up by turning pictures off. In fact, for C&J on a modem this is probably a very good idea.
In Internet Explorer 6, go into Tools, then Internet Options, then click the Advanced tab, then scroll down to the Multimedia section and uncheck the box that says “Show pictures.” Come to think of it you might want to uncheck some of those other boxes too, especially the ones about videos and sounds.
In Firefox (I highly recommend Firefox for a variety of reasons), go to Tools, then click “Options,” then click the “Web Features” button, and then uncheck the “Load Images” button.
Other browsers will have similar features, but you’ll have to look for them or ask around.
That let you turn off the off offensive Gannon Pic, thanks for that bit of info.
I actually use a different method — the adblock feature on Firefox — but this will work on all browsers. The unfortunate side effect is that if there’s a picture you really do want to see you have to jump through hoops to see it, but if you’re stuck on a modem it’s better than waiting two days for a page the size of the average C&J to lead.
I also occasionally use text-only browsers like “links” but I don’t know if there’s a Windows equivalent to links. Besides you have to be kinda geeky to want to do that sort of thing. 🙂
Thanks, OMiR,
I think I have IE 5, but I unchecked pictures, also sound and video, since I don’t have speakers on this machine and have never downloaded the animation thingie.
But what is “image dithering,” which I can opt to start?
It makes me think of an Elmer Fudd-like character, running around inside the computer, saying, “Oh me, oh my, what has that dwatted wabbit done?”
I don’t entirely understand dithering myself. It’s a way to make your pictures look better, but I think it eats some processor power. The best I can do is to say uncheck it and see if it makes a difference.
Of course if you’ve turned images off, they probably won’t get in a dither over whether they’re being dithered or not.
That remark was so funny, I like your humor, cause it’s like mine.
I think you should post your comment above about how to get rid of pics, on world thread and faqs.
I am on cable and use Opera web browser primarily but I am just so happy with getting rid of all these pics and your suggestion works on Opera as well.
Hey, OMiR,
See the other comments here. Does turning off the pix turn off the ads, or just the images? I don’t want to throw a boulder into Booman’s delicate revenue stream.
Sorry, the other comments I asked about are over on the Open Thread. Can’t walk and chew gum at the same time.
It doesn’t turn off the ads, just the pictures. I decided I wasn’t going to tell how to turn off the ads, even though I know how, just in case an Armando clone came along and yelled at me. <grin>
.
Wrote an excellent diary, worthy to reflect —
META-DIARY ALERT: Troll Ratings and the Abuse Thereof
by Maryscott OConnor Fri Apr 1st, 2005
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Mmmmm…why would any of us here care what is happening at dkos? Yes, I think the ratings thing is way out of control. Never quite understood C&J love fest and people giving out 4’s by the bucketful to posters that just say Fuck or shit or that way funny? Nope, don’t quite get it. That being said I love Dkos and will continue to go there. It’s what brought me here. Is it getting absurdly insane? Naw…just too many people. that’ll change. It’s kind of like(in my younger days) a really great new bar or club would open up and you’d have to stand in line forever to get in. A year or two latter the doors are closed and the windows all boarded up because it lost its novelty.
Things get clicky at times and I am tired of Kos throwing up a link to a news release four hours after someone else had written a great diary about same subject. Just promote that diary. I am not saying anything here that I have not said over there. There’s my 2 cents worth. I’m working on my first diary but probably will never post it. Then again ya just never know.
Just read your comment and you are so right about everything you said.
I noticed in the last section of your comment you talked about writing a diary and may never post, I want to offer you what Mindmouth offered to me a few weeks ago,when the subject came up, She said, why not, just be brave and go ahead and post a diary. I said maybe I will and then a few hours later I did, it was hard but it turned out well in the end, and now I feel free to post diaries.
So I am urging you, please go ahead and do it, we want to hear what you have to say and on this site you don’t have to worry about being flamed.
C&J is a good thing. Or at least it was. See, C&J has the effect of fostering a sense of community amongst people. It allows people to open up and reveal little bits about themselves, which I think adds to the dKos user experience. Then, when I leave C&J and go into the diaries and see something by the venerable Maryscott O’Connor (hail Mary…scott. ) I know who she is and what she’s all about. I’m much more likely to take someone’s political rantings seriously if I know who they are and why they matter. It means a lot to me that I know (for instance…and I don’t want to keep putting her on the spot, mostly because I know she’s probably out of commission right now, which proves the point I’m about to make) that Maryscott is an aspiring actress from California who has a husband and kids, etc. That makes her a real person, and not just a name on a screen. To me, this supports the Democratic ideal of people as PEOPLE and not just commodities or numbers. Is it a bit childish to post 500 cat pictures a day and throw around fours just for showing up? No. But is the C&J Daily Mojo and Fart Joke Festival generally a good thing for dKos? Sure.
That being said, the quality of dKos seems to be suffering greatly. The stuff on the front page is just not interesting, for the most part. Maybe it’s just because Markos and I don’t see eye to eye on much, and maybe because there’s a certain front page poster who I absolutely despise, but it’s suffering. Generally, I have a list of about 15 people whose diaries I read regularly, and ignore the rest.
What does any of this have to do with BooTrib? Well, I think BooTrib could use some of the community-building that dKos has going on. dKos (at least for a while) was a place where a bunch of politically-minded buddies got together to talk shop, a big virtual bar where the rum and cokes and ideas were flowing. At this point, BooTrib is a community in its infancy, but at this point just seems a lot more sterile than dKos.
A week or so ago, someone (Grannyhelen? If not, I apologize to the poster) posted a ‘Tell me about yourself’ thread that was fascinating. It disappeared before I got around to posting, but it was a good start for a community that needs some humanization.
Sorry…I’ll shut up now, as I know I stopped making sense several paragraphs ago.
Yeah, um, this is me casting a vote for an Edit Comment button.
“Is it childish to post 500 cat pictures and throw around 4s just for showing up?” I meant YES, not no.
Stupid, stupid, stupid.
.
[Bold face emphasis is mine]
I understand, but my intention is to engage with a larger portion of a community than just 15 authors.
I agree with your observations, realize great diversity easily leads to divisiveness, anger and abuse. It’s the scale of a community that in the end determines whether to build-up or by inner conflicts brings down a community. Everyone in a sense, wants to participate in political debate, but arguing all day with a wing-nut will get really frustrating because of lack of common ground.
See also every single debate here and at dKos on the ME issue. At dKos I received my first ever blog death threat, I don’t think that is the way to go. Some moderation is required, some community guidelines and restraint by all persons participating.
Perhaps an agreement to limit in a certain debate the number of comments permitted to three by each debater, to avoid tirades of anger, abuse and repeats of offensive language. This would give other readers an opening to add their opinions and broaden the discussion, instead of splitting the small community in two camps.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Never on the front page. It is an in-diary, more personal than newsie.
I am thinking of first time clickers onto Kos looking for more serious news and analysis. This folksy diary might put them off. Bill does cover some serious issues, it’s the commentary that is more light hearted.
It’s a good place for personal opinions and stories that don’t fit into Open Thread or Diaries.
If Booman Tribune were to have a similar diary, it would look likr a clone of Daily Kos.
I like Carnaki’s Happy Story diaries.