Anyone who wants to opine on DavidByron’s positions, behavior, diary etc, please do so here. This invitation is extended to David as well.
I’m not going to participate.
I have warned David about some of his posts. I have suggested he consider leaving voluntarily.
Other than that, I’ll say no more. I’d rather see what the community has to say.
on this ‘delicate’ issue. But it is not delicate anymore – it is obvious. Pure distraction.
Here’s what I said a bit earlier in David’s diary; Re: Wow (none / 1)
Since then, it has deteriorated. Considerably.
David’s got to delete his user, or you have to do it.
I’ve said it all.
But what I saw of the argument centered on a poor comment rating he received, and I’m too lazy to read all of it.
If that’s the problem, then there is no problem, IMHO.
Ratings might be an efficient way to give a “word up” or “amen” to a posting, but their eventual descent into either groupthink conditioning, excess pride, or petty bickering makes the effort of posting a quick “That was aweseome” much more appealing.
I mean, as diane101 asked the other day, what’s the point of all the talk and hot air anyhow? To get comment ratings?
This would not be the first forum from which DavidByron was banned. I’ve watched him do this before, i.e., feel victimized. On the whole, he’s an intelligent, passionate fellow whose politics are farther to the left than mine but I tend to enjoy his rants even tho I wince at some of his anti-American invective. But, as I’ve witnessed before, that’s NOT the problem. Most of us are highly tolerant of divergent views and actually welcome them. David tends to see disagreement as a personal insult to his intellect.
David’s problem comes from ass-U-me-ing that he’s being treated unfairly when people disagree with his opinions or object when he veers into derogatory or insulting defensiveness. And, when that criticism comes from the owner of the site or an official moderator, well, that really sets off his persecution complex.
When I saw him show up here I had great hopes that he had matured since I last saw his username. (sigh)
Ah, well, the Booman Tribune is not a virgin anymore. We now have our first real Hidden Comment. So sad.
DavidByron posted on Liberal Street Fighter for a while. I’m pretty sure he was banned from that site. I didn’t read the “Israel” thread here, so I’m not sure of the issues you are discussing but his posts on LSF often included personal attacks on other posters. I think that’s what got him banned.
I was – I think anyway – one of the most persistant posters in the I/P thread with regard to doing back-and-forths with DB. I’ve since let him get the last word in cuz I agree with – I believe it was Diane who said this – that at some point we’ll just have to agree to disagree and that’s that.
Here’s the dynamcis of what’s going on right now, IMO:
Ratings are often-times a popularity contest. Sad but true. And I could at this juncture state, “well, I for one don’t care about how popular I am”, but that wouldn’t be correct. I’m human. So is David. So…we all care about what folks think about us on some level. I think – and David if you’re around please correct me if this is a wrong assumption to make – that when everyone else is getting 2 and 3 4’s per comment when taking the opposite stance of what David was taking, and when David’s the only one taking that stance…it can feel like folks are “ganging up”. Just my opinion of part of the stuff that was happening in the I/P thread.
Passionate people are easily pissed off. I know – I get passionate. When I’m passionate I AM thin-skinned. I could say that David was being demogaugic at times, but so what? I’M demogaugic at times. Before we all go off on David let’s look at ourselves and conversations we’ve had, not just here but at work and even with our families. We can all be a little thin-skinned and intolerant of divergent opinions at times. Which leads me to…
Folks need to know how to respond to passionate people. If someone’s being thin-skinned about something, do you really believe that telling them they’re thin-skinned will make them stop being so? Folks are generally thin-skinned when they feel attacked by the group…at least I know I do. I had a lot of compassion for David in that thread, and not because I agreed with hardly anything he was saying. I had compassion for him because he was the only one who was persistantly saying it.
If David pissed some of you off at some point, it’s probably better that you just stopped responding to him and let him get the last word in, IMO.
Where David crossed the line. I think it was in allowing one guy to get to him and then taking out his frustration on Booman. I agree with Booman that he can’t get into every. single. ratings. dispute. What I think David was trying to tell Booman is that if he wants an environment where folks can feel like they can say very controversial things, then he needs to cut down on the retribution factor from some folks who may try to “punish” them by troll ratings. But the expression of this idea I think turned very personal, and that’s not right.
So…I for one hope David doesn’t leave. I had a great experience talking with him about this very hard issue.
My $0.02.
(Not that my opinion means anything either, I just love throwing my 2 cents in when asked. And even when not, sometimes.)
He’s passionate, tenacious and certainly gets things going and makes people think. Mind you, I would have stopped conversation in the last diary long ago, as I thought the entire premise was silly (and said so). (I’d like to go on record, by the way, as being not only anti troll rating, but anti banning as well, as befits a good pinko commie pagan heathen).
On community… I got off to a slightly rocky start here myself, but I like the concept of this site. Thing is, concepts are only that.. concepts. It takes the work of all of us to bring things to fruition, so I decided that sticking around and working in my own small way to help build it into what it can be was the way to go.
[I love the international aspects, as well as the investigative, and that there is time to really delve into topics, should one have a desire to. I think it needs to be more dekossified, and to get its own identity, but that will come in time. I hope the little Frog for a Day thingy will be a start on that.]
Anyway, some people will make huge splashes in the pond, others tiny ripples. I think it’s all to the good, and things tend to blow over eventually.
…LOVE that term. dKos, to me, is wa-a-a-a-a-y off the deep end in terms of group think – which is OK for me, personally, cuz I guess I generally fit into the liberal left, keepin’ church n state separate thang. But it does make the site itself a little homogenic.
I’d love to see that dynamic NOT get as pronounced here. There’s too much “me too” at dKos for my taste sometimes, and what I love about DB is that he breaks that up.
Group think is okay in its place. I think it is okay at kos (to an extent) because of the type of site it is. It energizes people, and everyone can get all outraged about something and so on. I think there is a capacity for this to be much more than that. At the moment it is fairly small and there is room to think, and to discuss. Having ideas challenged is not always comfortable though, one has to admit.
I think DKos has blogswarms. If certain people hold a view or recommend a diary it influences a larger group.
It’s human nature.
I think certain interchanges should be reserved for email, off the board. Otherwise it trivializes the site and turns off newcomers.
I’m only speaking of the interchange which I scrolled through. I don’t know about what preceeded it.
There are so many important issues to cover and so little time.
Me, too…oops.
🙂
I’ve seen this inanity too many times to count.
One of the first lessons I’ve learned in this business is to give no quarter and expect none.
For over a year I moderated and sometimes administered an out of the way place in blogtopia (yes, skippy coined the phrase!).
In its original incarnation it was a magnet for opponents’ and right wingnut trolls – their intent was to disrupt to the point of making the resource useless. Our clueless and incompetent media enablers got in on the act, misrepresenting posts of supporters (“…they’ve expressed ‘doubts’…” or “…they’ve been critical…”). From the beginning that site was supposed to be a resource for education, exchange and action. Due to heavy troll action several of us were commissioned as “troll hunters”. To an extent, our hunting and dispatch of trolls worked – even with their screams about “free speech”.
At that previous site we finally learned to make it crystal clear:
Posting with intent to disrupt is not “free speech”. And, make no mistake, the owner of the site gets to set the rules and make those calls.
Disruption of a site is trolling – it keeps communities like this from doing what they need to do – which is ultimately, to turn words into action.
If you’re posting here for ratings or to get noticed you need to re-examine your own motivations – they’re incompatible with the reason for this particular site’s existence. The best way to deal with an “undeserved” bad rating? Ignore it. If it’s a fluke it won’t effect anything. If you’re a good thinker who expresses yourself well in writing you’ll make up for it in no time. If you have a string of troll ratings maybe it’s a sign that you aren’t fitting in well with the community and its goals.
Trolling is not about having a sharp tongue or a “snarky” wit. I find those are admirable qualities in an opponent. If someone has competing views and they can back them up, I’ll engage as I can.
On that past site we had a few pet right wingnuts. They couldn’t seem to keep away. They generally adhered to civil rules of discourse – and we (and I) pummeled them mercilessly for their lack of facts, logic, or sourcing. At times it was like clubbing baby harp seals. They served an educational purpose for the denizens of the site – everyone learned by example and practical exercise how to successfully engage the methods and thinking of the reactionary right.
The drive by trolls were easier. We created a “troll exhibit” where their offerings were archived and locked – this as an example of their stupidity, as a “heads up” for the community, and as a way to very effectively make their “free speech” squealing look like what it was.
“Ego” posters are the most difficult – those who can’t understand why everyone doesn’t agree with them, who believe that being at a site longer than others – rather than content – confers gravitas, who take everything personally, and who wonder why the powers that be haven’t discovered that they are the next great political strategist. Steve Gilliard has a lot to say about this.
People will arrive here and leave here as it suits them.
A hint for those with a penchant for dramatic exits – it only works if everyone else cares what you think. That only happens when you’ve demonstrated a history of clear thought and elegant writing in your posts.
The second lesson I learned in this business? You can’t please everyone.
Booman calls the shots. If you don’t like it you can leave.
I posted one comment on DB diary and decided not to engage in any more comments there. I was glad some posters did try get to the point of some of the issues though. At some point though you’re just chasing your tail.
There’s a big difference between discussion and arguing and some people seemed not to have learned that key difference yet. Passionate discussion of an issue=good but devolving in argumentative stances and/or commenting then on someone’s personal character=bad.
If you can’t tell the difference quit posting…and I am not directing this now at anyone in particular just to be clear on that..that’s my personal opinion on thought process in posting comments.
I wouldn’t want to end up with groupthink here yet also don’t want good discussions hi-jacked with argumentative stances going nowhere except to cause major disruptions and forget the issue completely.
.
Is your last phrase of the diary.
May work for a closely united community, but usually practise is quite different. Start with moderation on ME issue at all times. At dKos it is impossible to touch the topic, lots of misunderstanding, false concepts, poor knowledge of facts. Recent diaries were ruined within half an hour by new members giving their €0.01 worth [equivalent to $0.013] of abuse and off-topic rants.
To ban someone IMHO must be the ultimate step. In C&J diary I made some comments on moderation. On issue like ME, perhaps we should agree that each individual user should not post more than three comments. This prevents irrational repeat performance and gives someone a choice just to shut up a bit and engage in thinking before rambling on.
Take the irritation out of the debate, and give other users, over a bit longer period, the chance to enter the discussion. BT cannot function without opposing views, but everyone should remain civil and not get personal. An insulting remark can be painful and an apology should follow. I have witnessed an excuse occasionally at dKos and this performs miracles.
I did not enter the debate on ME diary because the flames hit my face when I opened the door. I barely made it to do some careful rating, because that can also blow oxygen into an ongoing fire.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
.
No you’re wrong on that
by vcmvo2
I’ve had time to think about it…
by Maryscott Oconnor
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
suggesting Rules and Bullshit..like “only 3 comments on a threat”…or “news items on the side”…Stop thinking so small..think BIG..like 50,000 users big..The less rules, the bigger this blog will become…This site is awesome, it is working. (Booman has done a great job.) (To many cooks spoil the broth) It has terrific front pagers, People coming here from all over the world, really smart people, and a WAY, and I mean WAY considerate owner.
I read several of the threads in question…The guy in question (I will use a word he used to describe another user) is an ASSHOLE…..I don’t even think Booman should be asking what the users want or think. Why he only got 3 troll ratings from people that participated I will never know. You should Ban his Ass and move on. Nothing will ever be perfect, no one here should be expected to agree on anything, and users coming onto this site will be far from perfect. Abusing the guy who put his hard earned money up, for us to have a place to gather and discuss politics and world issues. The guy is an Ass and TROLL. When this site grows and becomes an adult we won’t even be wasting our time having these discussions.
I was probably the first user to give someone a 2. It was given to Galile (or whatever his name was) he high jacked a potentially great diary and made a total mess of it, abused the owner and the site for a couple of days..Shit happens…Assholes will come..This site needs some balls..the ratings are there for a reason, if people stopped giving out 4’s of every comment or just to let someone know you read their answer, the rating system might start working…and if Booman feels the need to warn ANYONE or kick their ass out, with no questions asked…he should do it.
There are those who find validation in being–in their eyes–victimized. What they do or write is, knowingly or not, designed to get them the victimization they desire.
It’s a lose-lose situation for those who deal with them. For them, it’s win-win. They win when tolerated; they win when they aren’t.
Listen to what the community has to say, BooMan. Then make your call.
I was just writing my Good-bye Cruel World diary for Kos
because my Iraqi Election diary was hardly noticed.
I had some pretty good whines ready, and some excellent
self-pities and you came along and ruined everything with your truth attack.
sob sob sob
sob sob
sob
[that’s ‘sob’ not an acronym, in case you are sensitive]
</sarcasm>
A good day to everyone, the world awaits, untold potential awaits!
I stayed out of the two diaries, but I have to tell you, I was appalled at some of the comments that DB was making.
His statement is telling:
“I can lay down smack with the best of them. It’s more or less what I do most of the time.”
He seems to get a kick out of throwing hand grenades in the middle of the room, and while he might gather some weird sense of enjoyment out of that, I don’t. Heated, passionate debate is one thing, and is something that I would think is the reason for places like this; hurling unwarranted insults and engaging in unprovoked personal attacks is quite another.
DB should go his own way, set up his own blog, and lay down all the smack he wants. My guess is that it will sound like one handed clapping.
I’ll weigh in here, I guess.
First, I never ever cover the Israeli/Palestinian situation on my blog or in any of my Diaries (here, Dkos or anywhere) simply because it causes nothing but trouble. It’s an important issue, an extremely one, but nobody can talk rationally about it.
I used to live in Israel and I can tell you my personal opinion is that 99% of the people who live there, of any ethnicity or religious faith, are stone-cold crazy nutjobs. I had a good time in Israel but my opinion is that the entire nation is a lunatic asylum and rational discussion there is not possible. Or at least I don’t have the Solomonic patience to do it.
As for DB personally, I am of two minds. First I agree with some of his positions but I think DB spends way too much time on the computer. What I mean by that is that he takes stuff too personal. I don’t really like to read all the anger/flame stuff. In fact I hate it, and whatever agreement or interest I had in what he’s got to say goes out the window when it gets to that point.
I’ve been on Dkos since Moby Dick was a minnow and you know what? I’ve written hundreds of Diaries with little or no comments posted. I’ve gotten ignored, poorly rated and harshly criticized. So what? It’s just a bunch of people on a computer. You write what you write because you believe in it, not because you want to make friends or convince anyone of anything. I’m not even sure if I’m a TU anymore and I don’t care because it’s not important.
What does it say in the Gospel of Thomas? Let those hear with ears to hear.
If DB or User X or User Z rates me a zero or calls me a bad name, so what! Jeez someone on Booman called me a “c**ksucker” the other day, I didn’t blow a tire over that!
Anyway, I guess I’ve seen enough real problems in this world to fail to understand how someone could get worked up about electronic words on a screen. I say DB either chills out and takes whatever lumps people throw his way or else adios and go cry into your pillow somewhere else.
Pax
“It’s an important issue . . . but nobody can talk rationally about it”
But we must. Unfortunately DB does as much disservice to that necessary discussion as anyone, by personalizing it, and distracting attention from the real issues. One can only hope that at some point he will realize that, and bring himself under control . . .
Because a sound political party cannot be built on a foundation of sand. There must be principle, and consistency:
What argument can one offer against the occupation of Iraq which does not speak also against the occupation of Palestine?
What argument can one offer against Abu Graib which does not speak also against Israeli torture (they who trained the Abu Graib “interrogators”)?
What argument can one offer against a fundamentalist theocracy which does not speak also against Zionist theocracy?
What argument can one offer against racism which does not speak also against a “Jewish State”?
What argument can one offer for justice, decency or morality, while supporting the unjust, the indecent, and the immoral?
In a comment in another thread Booman worries that this issue might fracture the Democratic Party. In reality it already has . . . and the band-aid of hypocrisy can at best only temporarily hide that fracture. The shift to the Republicans now evidenced by some Zionists (Lieberman, for example) only showcases the problem . . . the Zionists will go wherever they get the better deal for Israel. They do have a “first loyalty” . . . and it is not to the Democratic Party, or democratic ideals, or to America.
Let them go. Sure, it will hurt to lose the money, and “power” that goes with them, but in the long run justice, decency and principle are stronger allies and will build a stronger party. The Democratic Party was right to renounce Jim Crow, despite the “cost”, and it would be just as right to renounce Zionism. The party should be defined by what it stands for, not by who it sells out to.
I missed most of the flames being over extended on many things the past few days…and I’d rather miss the posts.
That said, I miss galiel and the heat he or she sometimes put off and I’d hate to see DavidByron leave or be booted or anyone else. Sometimes you need the passionate debate to practice for the world outside the blogosphere.
Just to let you know, I am doing an email interview with Galiel(he agreed) and am waiting for his response. I am going to post it on my blog when it is done and I will post a link here at that time.
He is currently very busy but I expect maybe later this week I may have it.
I asked him a list of questions, if you have one you would like to add, email me and I will include.
I don’t have any questions, but I look forward to reading it and look forward to the link.
No expulsions, No ratings abuse.
DB should stay or leave only if he wants to.
I completely disagree with his attitude (having read his diary) and he should reconsider his reaction towards Booman and the community as a whole.
David: Learn how to take YES for an answer. You have much to offer and nobody is letting you down, rather, you are lettting yourself down by getting stuck with matters of little importance.
I was curious, did some research, and feel that perhaps this situation may warrant a second look. Disclaimer: I don’t know David Byron at all. What follows is just my opinion and is NOT an attack on anyone here at BT.
I looked up David Byron’s comment record: 157 comments in nine days, beginning 3/31/05.
Positives: the majority of his comments on a wide variety of diary topics made prior to the Middle East diaries were well-written, opinionated, informative, thoughtful, and funny. Good examples:
A matter of taste: Comments espousing controversial or unusual opinions were fun to read (IMO), such as:
Confronting other posters was done often, but usually quite respectfully, with posts for clarification and apologies for overreaching. I saw no confrontational comments on PD’s religious thread nor on diane101’s Iraqi friend “guest thread,” behavior which we seem to have agreed on as our BT standard last time.
Approximately 71% of his comments were in this positive and/or controversial mode.
Negatives: his only diary was inflammatory and his comments on that thread largely inappropriate. The front paged Israel thread seemed to be a hot zone–I counted 31 of DB’s posts, some contributory and some…not. Seemed to have a small problem in a Sudan thread as well. Approximately 29% of his comments seem to be in this negative mode.
I know this is really not my business. But my worry is about the community turning on one person when tempers are hot. Perhaps we can start a diary about community standards regarding comments, confrontation, and how to help each other to back off on hot issues. Also, maybe a BooTrib meta-diary or open thread once a week might be useful. We could offer praise, suggestions, and complaints as needed. This is a great place, and we shouldn’t let growing pains get us down!
I hope that both Booman and David Byron take this post in the respectful spirit with which is was intended.
I just want to let you know that we did not turn on him, he felt that we had not done enough to help him deal with getting a 1 rating, and many of us here myself included, tried to tell him we were not judging him or rating him as one person had done and I even commented to the original rater of the 1 that perhaps he should consider DB was not a troll.
Some commenters later on said negative things, perhaps, but overall we were on the side of just agree to disagree and get on with other things.
Problem was DB got a little testy on his own diary (when we were all trying to help) in regards to Booman and sent some of us over the edge with his by now rude comments, but I don’t think anyone even gave him a bad rating on his diary or his comments other than the one commenter.
Keep in mind that comments were being made upthread and downthread at the same time and so the order you read them is not the sequence they happened in. There was some misunderstanding because commenters were writing at the same time and then posting so things got lost in the winds of that, hard to explain all of it, but hope I have a little.
I personally do not want him to leave this site and still say ‘if you see this David, I mean it, come back.’
But I do think a diary on community standards would be a good idea and maybe you should do one, I think we still have things to talk over in this regard.
You always make it so kindly. I do read comments nested, so time does get mixed up and makes it harder to follow. I really wish I had written the last part better–didn’t mean to accuse anyone of “turning on” DB. I said that badly, and I’m sorry.
I hope DB stays too, and we all figure out together how to disagree without getting personal. Difficult line sometimes. I guess I could write a community standards diary, but perhaps Booman would prefer that a front pager kick off that conversation. I’ll try to find where he is on BT and ask. Thanks again for being so nice.
I appreciate your comments and suggestions. (And I thank you so much for your analysis and statistical summaries. My brain simply doesn’t function like that, and you made me smile.) I choose not to engage in banning or troll-rating. I’ll leave that up to the site proprietor or others who feel they have a personal stake in any given matter.
My only concern with DB relates to that specific diary – which seemed to be a purposeful attempt to bait the site proprietor and the community at large into negative discourse. (Aside from that, I sincerely enjoy passionate issue debate). His diary came across as creating drama for the sole purpose of creating drama. It seemed that DB tried to instigate a situation where people second guessed the intentions of others, and questioned the worth of the community as a whole. While he may have had a legitimate concern about the troll rating he received, the site proprietor attempted to resolve the matter, and exhibited a great deal of patience while under attack. After that, DB just wouldn’t let up – and seemed to desperately seek attention – whether good or bad.
I know nothing of DB or the person who troll-rated him -nor did I read the diary in which it took place -so I can’t comment on that. From my observations, however, it seems that people have typically stepped up to the plate and defended others when necessary. Perhaps because DB is so outspoken and able to defend himself, others didn’t feel the need to jump in. I don’t know.
My inner geek comes out. Statistics tend to be helpful in getting a holistic picture of a situation, but quantifying interpersonal communications is an inexact science. I agree about the failure diary being inappropriate. I think meta-discussions are important, but prefer that they are phrased positively whenever possible. I also agree that Booman needs to make mod decisions as he sees fit, as it’s his name over the door. Just thought we might find a way to keep an interesting viewpoint in this nice little pond.
That’s exactly what I loved about your post, Eleanora. The fact that you cared enough to spend that much time quantifying the subjective. Nice work (and I’m still smiling).
Good night!
Great job, even if had been only pointing out the “Iraqis shooting up Powerpuff girls” post… I had to go read that one. Once I stop laughing, I’ll be able to address this in a serious manner. Really! (I think I need sleep).
I think a meta-diary would be a good idea. I had little problem with David (except for the last, very silly, diary), but I believe taking off from this incident to futher build the community and standards and all that would be a good outcome.
Wow
OK I’m a silly twit here but please indulge me. Troll as in fairies and goblins? Stupid? I disagree? What…? And what’s with the megatroll – is that like Shrek? The only other definition I found was in regards to fishing.
In the end I just hope people don’t take the opinions of others personally. It’s good to have a place where opinions can be voiced but not silenced, to me that’s freedom of speech. I’ll miss David’s voice, since it seems he has allowed it to get too personal for him.
…but read the diaries regarding the situation this morning.
Since I missed it, I’ll not comment, except to say one thing:
I absolutely refuse to get in discussions about ratings, or ratings abuse. I think it’s a non-issue, doesn’t really matter, and isn’t worth talking about. I give ratings out when I want to, based on my own personal system, and think everyone else does the same. That is something that has never really mattered much to me. Maybe someone’s having a bad day, thinks you sounded like complete idiot troll in a comment, and shoots you a 2…but then three days later, gives you a 4 for making a stellar comment on another thread. Who cares?!
And loaded with your erudite comments, ha ha.
YOu always put things so succintly, love it.
Make sure you check out my new diary, I just talked to Iraqi friend, etc. and she has posted a new article everyone needs to read.
Anyway, good morning,how are you today, well I hope.
Thank you! LOL!
I’m doing good this morning, for a Monday – how are you this morning? {{{hugs}}}
I am pretty happy now I’ve talked to my Iraq friend, and I am happy you are finally back online.
This place always brightens up when you come on board.
You gotta take some time to post over the weekend, so I don’t have to wait so long to see your words. K
Aw, thank you! I’ve gotta remember to take my password home with me over the weekends – I stopped by here on Saturday but couldn’t log in because I couldn’t remember my password! LOL!
you can email me, and I can change your password to something you know.
M.
Cool! Thanks, B-man!