This is the counter-thread which I promised to set up in order to counterbalance the very interesting and useful contributions and discussion on my other thread which asked about the “crimes, defects, etc.” of the various nations, beside the US, which are represented by thoughtful and insightful commentators here and at the New European Times.
What I hope to accomplish in this thread is very simply to open up a discussion on the positive and admirable political and social policies of OTHER countries besides the US. I wish in this context to hear only about the admirable acheivements of any and all nations on earth which have no causal relationship with US domestic or foriegn policy. This is not about promoting blind nationalism or boasting about the past or present acheivements of one’s countries. The goal is very simply to learn from each other about the various and infinite political and social advantages of other nations beside the US:
- As a learning experience for myself and others who have very limited access to accurate and reliable information about what’s going on in places like China, India, Australia, ad infinitum.
- To counterbalance the enormous anount of narcissistic chest-thumping and arrogant indifferences which often predominates in the US mainsteam media.
You all know how this works by now. If not, check out my other diary “What are the Crimes, Defects and Problems of Your Country?” So I won’t put a list of the positive aspects of Italy (my country of residence for the last five years) right away, as I’m extremely busy at the moment and am also rather strangley encountering some diffulty in think of something positive to say on the matter.
Hmmm….I suspect that it might just be naturally easier to criticize and attack than it is to see the more positive aspects of one’s society.
Aside from the bread and the beer (both of which commodities are available in a variety approaching that of cheese in France), two admirable things that spring to my mind first are:
The extent to which the Germans have faced up to the crimes of National Socialism
The students of the ’60s were the first group to start critically examining the crimes committed under Nazi rule. Since then, public scrutiny of these years has broadened and deepened to examine a broad range crimes: the holocaust, of course, but also the concentration camp system, atrocities against the populations of Eastern Europe, “euthanasia”, exploitation of forced labor, and more. Just a couple of years ago a well-publicized exhibition sponsored by cigarette heir Jan-Phillip Reetsma drew broad attention to the criminal role of the Wehrmacht – previously generally perceived as an oasis of decency in comparison with the SS – in the forcible subjugation of territories to the east.
Consequently, no German today – not even the utmost wingnuts – denies the reality of the crimes committed. The great majority of Germans acknowledges and condemns the massive injustices committed under National Socialism. And efforts to minimize the magnitude through historical relativism or revisionism are countered loudly and energetically – with ample exposure in the MSM.
I don’t mean to say that all is perfect, but expressing sympathy with or admiration for anything Nazi today is comparable to using the N-word in the US.
When compared with, say, Japan, Turkey, the former colonial powers or [your choice here], I believe this is a unique historical development.
Co-determination
What if your job enjoyed the protection of democratic checks and balances? What if you could freely elect fellow workers to a body that had the power to
and generally make sure that everyone gets a fair shake?
Co-determination delivers all that and more. (This is necessarily a very cursory description; I could do a diary in greater detail if anyone is interested.)
I would be intereted in reading your diary. I also know some other people who would be interested over at
New European Times . That’s exactly the kind of thing we’re looking for!!
Just registered! I’d like to get the feel of the site before I put up a post though.
Good for you!!
Seriously, Matt in NYC points out that the Japanese have not really come to terms with their past in a way similar to the Germans and that he admires the Germans for this.
Recently there has been mcuh discussion in Italy surrounding just the same issue. Berlucsoni and his allies have been engaging in massive and wideranging historcial revisionism trying to minimize the crimes and responsibilites of Mussolini’s young “Repubblichini” (i.e. those who fought on his side in the civil war after he was reinstalled by the Nazi’s in the north of Italy at Salò) and establish a sort of moral equiavlce bewteen these fascists fighting for Hitler’s noble cause and “la resistenza” which was fighting to librate the country. ) “But there were communists among the resistance who commited horrible acts of brutality”, they insist.
The fundamental question of course is which side was fighting for the right cause and which for something incredibly evil. And the answer if obvious. but this nonsens has gone so far that anti-resitance movies, documentaries and books have been published sustaining by Berlosconi-controlled media sustaning the thesis of moral equivalence betwwen the two sides. The right has even gobe so far as to propose to ban the national holidy celebrating the liberation from Nazism on April 25th.
So Italy too has mcuh to learn from Germany. Thanks for reminding me of that point.
Italy’s culture wars were that extreme. How much of this is due to Berlusconi’s grip on the media?
This reminds me of Coulter et al’s attempts to rehabilitate McCarthy as a Cold War “hero” and “patriot.” Both examples show how vitally important these culture wars are. If we lose them, we’re almost sure to lose the political battles that follow in their wake.
about the predominant importance of cultural over political battles, obviously.
Berlusconi himself is not particulary interested in these matters. But he needs to keep the truly neo-fascist members of his coalition contented, so he gave them comtrol of the ministry of comminications, of education and so on. Berlusoni’s media power is absoltely indispensable though. The fascists get their historical revisionist ideas out through his innumerable outlets and, in return, they remain partners in the coalition.
I make this point all the time. I’ve never understood why this isn’t more commonly recognized.
When I lived in Japan, I was once asked (by a young Japanese man), “Everyone always talks about the bombing of Pearl Harbor, but who bombed whom anyway?”
Another time a middle-aged filmmaker told me she’d recently seen a movie about something called the “Bataan Death March” and could I believe Americans had concocted such an outrageous concept!? She honestly didn’t know that Japan had ever occupied the Phillipines.
I have the greatest admiration for Germany and Germans for at least attempting to deal with their past.
Germany’s recycling is very advanced. I would like to know
more about Germany’s environmental legislation.
I guess I was looking for “special” features. Environmental legislation is not special in comparison to other countries, but it is certainly European-level standard.
The recycling system is known as the Green Dot system. Every package must carry the Green Dot to show that it can be recycled, and every company must pay a tiny per-package fee to the so-called Dual System, which is essentially a monopoly. Consumers separate their packaging waste of various types, and either take it to collection bins or put it in special bags for pickup (depending on the municipality). The Dual System is then responsible arranging collection and recycling. More about the Green Dot, in English, here (just remember – they’re a corporation!).
The motivation for this has as much to do with land use and municipal administration concerns as with environmentalism: given that the population density in Germany is eight times that of the USA, landfill sites are becoming rapidly scarcer and more difficult to push through.
Some of the material is recycled in surprising ways. For example, China has become a big customer of post-consumer polyethylene (soda and water bottles, etc.) as a raw material for fleece jackets. Also, the law permits what is euphemistically called “thermal recycling”, i.e. incineration for power gen and/or block heating. (The building of the incinerators was plagued by rampant corruption that is still being unraveled, but that’s a story in itself).
Otherwise,
That’s a quickie rundown. Hope you find this useful!
Thanks very useful and good to know.
Only an insider can give an idea of the complexity.
I just stumbled across this blog discussing the same thing. 🙂
http://andrewhammel.typepad.com/german_joys/2005/05/a_patriotic_ger.html
Being a German myself I like his “nominations”.
Woah, beware of overly broad generalizations:
Consequently, no German today – not even the utmost wingnuts – denies the reality of the crimes committed. The great majority of Germans acknowledges and condemns the massive injustices committed under National Socialism. And efforts to minimize the magnitude through historical relativism or revisionism are countered loudly and energetically – with ample exposure in the MSM.
There have been two larger Nazi demonstrations in the last two weeks in Germany, one in Dresden on Mayday and one on May 8 in Berlin. (This figure appears very large, however these two days are kind of special in German Nazi mythology so it’s not really representative of two weeks in Germany.)
These guys very much deny the crimes of Nazi Germany or engage in justifying them.
To our credit (I’m German as well), the Nazis in Berlin got nowhere as we simply occupied the entire city around them and they had nowhere to go. All this happened peacefully, which is quite a change from the large Nazi demonstration on Mayday last year which turned kind of ugly in the streets.
Anyway, although there is a lot of progress, the fight against Nazi ideology in Germany is far from over.
I’m a little puzzled why this thread didn’t do as well or generate as much interest as the other.
It can”t have anything to do with the quality of the diary or anything.
It’s funny. It honestly seems that more people are willing, or find it easier, to put down their country than to write somehting positive about it. INTERSTING::::
Well, here’s what I think is good about Italy:
7)The cost of medication used to be comletely covered by he governement,and is still covered partaily depeneding on the earnings of the indivual.
Not quite near the french but light years more enlighttened than US public’s attitutes.
10)Italy has a much more represnetive electoral system based on a mix bewteen proprotioanl representation and first-past-the-post voting than the US and UK, thouhg it is far from perfect.
Very good list! You took the time to be comprehensive. (And I definitely hear you on 1.)
and they have spread this over the globe. In my small
town, there is The Italian Bakery to the left of me
and La Colina Bakery to the right of me.
La Colina makes each cup of coffee individually like
an Americano. Beans are ground fresh for each individual cup. They use real lemon curd in their lemon bars. The breads: roasted garlic and asiago bread, the savouries: feta and spinach brioche.
Also Italian design in furniture and clothes is outstanding.
“Warm and friendly people” I experienced this living in an Italian ghetto for a few years.
Canada? in another comment.
Italian cuisine is No. 2 or No. 3 in popularity (after, usually, the national cuisine) pretty much everywhere in the world. This is true in New York, Tokyo, Mexico City, Rio de Janeiro, Capetown, etc., etc.
May seem like a minor point but if you’ve ever gone a month eating nothing but tortillas, tortillas and more tortillas in a place like Chiapas, you know how happy finding an Italian restaurant will make you.
Of course, I left out art, architecture, poetry and the like. But these are not things which pertain to politics and the political sphere.
Ah, but who pays for all the restauri?
Especially of Church property?
And paying (ticket says Beni Culturali) to visit churches in Bologna, Verona, Firenze? (Maybe others as well, personal experience only in these cities.)
Do these amounts go to upkeep, or are they thrown into the communal kitty?
Of course, that’s a excellent point which I overlooked. As if these things just take care of themselves. I think that a vast majority the funding for maintenance and restoration comes from local governenment with some private contribution from wealth families and endowments, much like anywhere else.
Thanks for the reply.
I’ve often wondered about Church property in Italy.
I expect that restoration and maintenance by the secular government is to protect historical patrimony, and the lucrative tourist business. Maybe even funds from the European Union such as promised for Siracusa.
oh no? Culture and politics are twins.
But that discussion is for another day.
Yes, politics is the child of culture, I would put it rather. It’s certainly very difficult to separate the two.
is basically friendly and comfortable and free. It all sort of works despite the anarchy. The food can be great, the countryside is bloody gorgeous and astonishingly diverse, the constitution is amongst the most liberal in the world despite the lack of a separation between church and state, there is universal health care, people are relaxed and the weather is fantastic!
Crime is low, family structure is still strong, life expectancy is very high (up there with Japan almost), the church is taking a beating (recent stories about corruption and philandering among the clergy crack me up) and little seems to be the matter with the world when you can see for miles and the sun is shining in a clear blue sky on a warm spring day and you are drinking wine around the remains of a fabulous meal.
One of the intangibles that always gets a lump in my throat is the sheer sense of history that emanates from virtually all places.
I would be happy to answer any questions.
Needless to say, Athenian, you’re more than welcomne to join us over at New European Times to discuss this stuff as well.
Your diaries over here are usually excellent and we could use a wider represention of European views in particular.
The same applies to the rest of you folks.
Well,, its abou time I shut down and went to bed.
I apperciate all and any commets and will try to respond tommorrow morning…
Cinema… that’s about it…
I hope you’re distinguishing between “cinema” and plain old “movies.”
And I’ll be the one who says just a few great (rather than grating) things about the U.S. – there has to be some reason to keep fighting the Bu’ushists.
And last, but certainly not least:
4. The good ol’ Grateful Dead.
49% Americans who voted against Bush.
Courageous people unafraid to speak out in dangerous times .
Great songs
Movies!
Books (my favorite authors are American)
NYC
LA
Friendly people, much more friendly than Canadians
Baseball
Jon Stewart
I was out the door when I noticed this – but I do have much good to say.
– very liberal socially
– young people get community service or treatment if they break the law
– the mountains
– skiing
– largest percentage of land use for bio (organic) farming
– meat purchased from Austrian farms have the label of which farm on it
– great classical music scene
– great art scene – commercial buildings have to allocate 5% of cost to art
– country that gave you Mozart, Mahler, Schubert, J.& J. Strauss, Klimt, Schiele, Kokoschka, Freud, Gödel, Wittgenstein…
– highways are constructed with sound barriers
– in December lots of open air markets, each with a hot Punsch stand – yum – walk around the city with your mug and get a refill at the next one
– desert (as in food)
– progressive animal rights laws, very environmentally conscious
Oh gosh let’s see!
I’ll end there so as I don’t get to 13 😉
Pax
EXCELLENT contribution, soj. I wish you would join us over at NET, as well……
Imagine places 500 years old. That’s what I miss
in Canada. In Quebec there were places 300-400
years old. In the west, a 20 year old building is
considered old and ripe for demolition unless it
is certified as “heritage.”
Hmmm I wish I could live in Romania…
Can we add Alice Munro and Margaret Atwood? Maybe a 9B subsection for writers?
Being from Los Angeles, Toronto was an eye-opener with its vibrant ethnic mix, and mixed-use development. And a transportation system.
That’s why people want to live in cities.
We need to import some of those elements into LA.
But of course, a Canadian would politely reply.
I have a postcard from Margaret Atwood in her
own writing “you write beautifully.” she said.
Coincidentally, I first saw Margaret Atwood in LA
when she gave a talk at UCLA and I wrote to her
giving my reaction.
I absolutely loved LA. We stayed in Venice.
LA and NYC are the advance cities that tell us
where civilization is going if we continue on
our present paths. They are gross exaggerations,
having the best of everything and the worst of
everything. I read Mike Davis, everything he writes.
If you enjoyed Toronto you will love Montreal.
Montreal metros (subways) have artwork, sculpture and
stained glass windows.
We did enjoy our one stay in Montreal – a great contrast to our English-only movement in California.
We missed the metros because it was glorious Indian summer and a joy to wander around the pedestrian-friendly streets.
Both Canada and the US come from English/French colonial background. I wish I knew more about why they took such different paths.
Congratulations – praise from Margaret Atwood!
And, of course, you do write beautifully.
That would be an interesting diary, the differences between early Canadians and early Americans. Apparently now we are very much alike. “Hold similar views on many core issues, survey finds.” Globe & Mail
would look forward with interest to reading a diary along those lines.
I’m a history fanatic. Actually, I’m just a fanatic of knowledge in its infinite variety. This is my blessing and my curse.
Just one remark on the differences in the treatment of native peoples.
Early Canadians killed their aboriginals with bureaucracy
and the Early Americans used violence. Canadians restrained by British law while the Americans were in the
process of creating their own law.
Yes, the hungry insatiable mind is a blessing/curse.
Please expand on that comment little. I have a lot of experince of suffering and exasperation caused by bureacracy but I don’t undrstand how bureacracy, in itslef, could kill whole tribes/nations of people.
Nice and succintly expressed. You managed to pack a lot of information in just 10 little phrases!!
11. Real, not PC, respect for diversity. Canadian urban centers are at least a century ahead of the rest of the world in this regard.
Personally, I’d take issue with numbers 6 and 7 of your list.
I think – as a whole – we are pretty nationalistic, but in a relatively non-offensive way. It’s not a “we’re superior” type of nationalism, but a “we’re proud of who we are” type. I’m proud that my country has (almost) legalized same-sex marriages. I’m proud that we’ve cultivated a decent reputation in the world. I’m proud that we have universal health-care and a decently-functioning public education system. When I travel, I still have a Canadian flag on my bag, and feel safe holding my navy-blue passport. For my money, that’s nationalism. Oops! I just looked up the M-W definition of “nationalism” and realized that the meaning you were referring to was probably the one centered around the belief that the well-being of one’s own nation is paramount. If that’s the case, I agree with what you’ve said.
With regards to our treatment of Native peoples, while I think it’s been pretty good (compared to some other places), we could – and should – do so much better. What we have is a start, but we still don’t have adequate participation of Native persons in government, badly fund schools on Reserves, and generally don’t do enough to full make them a part of the rest of society.
As for why my country’s so great? I’d like to add a few thigns to your list:
Liberals that can spot bullshit a mile away!
Hawaiian Islands, especially Kauai, the Garden Isle where the mountains are shades of green that you have never witnessed before, aqua marine blue tropical waaters, oarange and majenta sunsets that melt into the ocean, white sand beaches and lots of aloha.
Chicago a magnificent city.
Rock and roll.
Sweet Georgia onions and Mom’s apple pie.
The prettiest waterfront city…San Diego.
Pristine mountains and clean clear air high up in the Rockies.
Blogs to bitch on.
and realized that I left out one of the mots important and intriguing aspects of the Italian political sytem (in the strictest sense).
Italy is, believe it or not, more of a direct democracy than a representative system with repect to the approval of all legislation excluding tax laws, pubic debt and deficit, amnesty and prison sentencing reduction, and international treaties.
According to Atrcile 75, in fact:
I don’t know how this works in other parts of Europe. But I can tell you that, in practical terms, their a more referedums and popular legislative initiatives here than anywhere in the US, with the possible exception of California.
The divorce laws, abortion, and now the question of the liberalization of artificial insemination an stem cell reearch laws, have all ben determined by thr popular will and not by either the legilative or judiciary branches.
The nation of my wife and daughter and where this British-American Ex-pat lives.
Tolerance.
Consideration of others.
Great food.
No violent crime to speak of.
No loudmouths.
Probably lots of other good things but wood for trees etc.
Great place to live.