Is there hope for the US and the world, that is a question I have been pondering a lot lately. Listening to the news, reading comments and diaries on this site and others, one would begin to think there is no hope. Is that true? Have we lost all hope?
My answer is that we have not, should not, must not and can not, ever lose hope. For ‘hope springs eternal in the human condition’ and ‘as long as there is life there is hope’ to use some old adages.
So if there is still hope, what can we do to build that hope, expand it and turn it into something positive?
Are we focusing too much on the negative and not enough on the positive?
Oh I know the positives are hard to find, but they are still there are they not?
Recent diaries such as http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/5/13/4306/00466
are asking the question what is positive about your nation but not too many comments. Well, what is positive about the US. Is there anything?
Personally I think that there is something positive going on right now in Congress. It is non partisan I feel and it is an effort to change the direction the megalomaniac group in power is taking this country. I think we need to focus and direct our positive energies in thoughts as well as deeds towards making sure that change come about.
We are now actively encouraging our senators and congress people to do the right thing, we are exerting our ‘power’ against the powers that be and that is a good thing..we are signing petitions,writing letters, making phone calls and many more activities of this nature.
We, the ordinary person, outnumber all of the powerful people on earth, many times over; surely we can manifest our will over them. If we cannot, it will be a sorry state for mankind and signal that we have been subjugated and bent into submission. We certainly could not want that.
I think another great sign of hope and change is the world wide participation in political processes in many countries around the world by it’s ‘ordinary’ citizens. People who never before would have been active are now becoming active by the thousands, or hundreds of thousands. That to me is a great sign of hope.
If all those people around the world joined together in the cause of world wide peace and freedom, we could not help but win what we the citizens so sorely desire.
So what do you think? Can we change the energies of the world from negative to positive?
What more can we do to bring about these changes?
What have you seen or heard lately that is of a positive nature (big or small) and gives you some hope for the future?
Above all ‘can we just be positive’???????? What do you think?
Sure there is hope, that is until we turn into a nuclear wasteland…
We do outnumber the powerful, but we don’t outgun them. Having soldiers has historically been the means to control the riff raff, the peasants, those who supply food, women and wine to those that live in luxury and call the shots. These days it is a bit better, at least here, since it would probably be considered bad form if we start gunning down our citizens – we have prisons instead.
No easy task, as the last several decades have been dedicated to inculcating the notion that the United States is the world, of which it is both author and master.
Although there are those in the west who are aware that the world existed, functioned, even produced art and science and thought and ideas long before the English began the process of driving their fellow European genocidists out of the Americas, it is not a line of thought that is encouraged.
This does not affect its stature as historical fact, however, nor should slaughter and pillage enthusiasts bemoan the other historical fact that the United States is not the first brutal empire, but cherish the vision of Genghis Khan himself green as mold with envy, wherever his wretched spirit finds not rest.
The band’s next set has already been typed up and distributed, and it consists largely of an extended dance mix of the 90s Afghanistan hit “Carpet of Gold or Carpet of Bombs.”
The new version will feature choruses in several languages, an updated take on embracing diversity.
Like the old dictum that all literature is composed of a handful of stories rewritten, “Carpet” is itself nothing more than a clumsy arrangement of the old Stone Age classic, “Kill or Be Killed.”
Despite the overwhelming body of evidence that the interests of the human species are better served by the hopeful, hesitant steps that have been taken over the millenia away from the primordial “Me big, you small. Me hit you in head, take food,” structure of caveman days, this is nevertheless the model that the Post Mortem America management are determined to impose as the sole product of every label.
What is remarkable about humans is that there are some, have always been some, who rejected that proto-Flintstone morality, probably mutants, and it is with those blessed mutants that the future of the planet, the future of continued life for the species, now rests.
As has been consistently demonstrated by the Late America herself, it is a far easier task to find ten men who will sell their daughters to a band of brigands for a handful of coins than to find one man who will not, even if all the gold of empire is laid at his feet. That man, if you can find him, is a Mutant. He has the Miep Gies gene, and in him is your hope. He is virtually guaranteed not to be a politician.
Though the White Man’s burden was and is at the end of the day, a storybook fantasy that all the cherishing and clinging of which deluded minds are capable cannot make real, the Mutant’s Burden is not a story at all, but an inescapable reality more real than blood, harder than diamonds, and more slippery than oil.
yes, it is ripped from an old blogrant but old people have an obligation to save their fingers whenever possible.
Is it Ok if I call you Duct? Thanks so much for responding to my begging (lack of emoticon) on Oui’s diary, you really are the sweetest.
But I am not sure if you think there is hope or not or is it too late?
BTW I am for saving fingers whenever possible, they may come in handy someday for chilli or other things equally wonderful. Prob. a stupid joke, but when you have no emoticons, what can you do????
Of course, there is always hope – the question is, for what?
One can hope that one wins the lottery, and one can hope that one’s rice will turn out perfect and fluffy, that wars will end, that children will be happy. Some of those hopes are more realistic than others, and hope is such a precious commodity, and such a basic mental health necessity, that even though nature has provided us with what appears to be sometimes an absurd abundance of it, it’s utility is enhanced by careful distribution.
The most sensible hopes are those over which we have even an illusion of control. We can cook the rice in the correct amount of water, take it off the fire at the right time, and refrain from peeking at it for half an hour. That improves our chances and the efficiency of our hope.
Likewise, we can love our children, teach them to love themselves and others, and give them nutritious food, clean beds and clothing, and make information available to them, all tools that increase their chances of having a happy life.
We can purchase lottery tickets, and we can decide that we will not hate or kill, but our hope is not best spent on things that depend so much on other people.
So if I am going to answer your question honestly, I will have to confess that I do not have a lot of hope for what I think you are hoping for, but the US is only one country on a planet with over 200 – the glass is more than half full!
I encourage people to abbreviate my name to whatever is easy for their fingers, just in case they are old, or planning to be.
Yes, definitely. Just as soon as we survive the collapse of the American Empire, life will get better. We will all be locally focused, growing our own food or being friends with someone who does. Cars and concrete cities and sprawling suburbs will rust away into a legend about the time humanity forgot their place on Mother Earth.
We’ll ride horses or bicycles with wooden wheels to our local markets and earn our living by doing useful trades like blacksmithing, furniture building, textile weaving, etc. Everything will move at a slower pace with much less daily stress. There will still be annual stress regarding the harvest and stockpiling enough wood for the winter but compared to today’s rat race it will feel like a vacation at a dude ranch.
And humans will live in extended families again instead of being isolated. Young mothers will have the benefit of having their mothers and aunts and cousins to share the burden of child-nurturing. And fathers will have sons and brothers to help in their trade or on their farm.
Altho, there may be communities who cling to “their own kind,” eventually all humans will be glowing shades of golden brown and young people will have trouble understanding what racism was. They’ll ask with wonder, “Were there really very white people and very black people?”
And by the year 3000, surely, even the last tattered remnants of fundies will accept that Jeezus is not going to come back and exalt them over others.
But — in the short term — I really have no hope except to escape and build toward self-sufficiency.
Sjct, you had me filled with longing for the days you espoused and a dash of hope until your last line. But perhaps building towards self sufficiency is hopeful in itself and those of us knowledgeable about the subject should get busy and get others educated so they are ready come hell or high water, both of which may occur.
When you’ve grown at least a portion of your own food, you can certainly identify more closely with Mother Earth and that can do nothing but help.
I have been trying to generate an interest in gardening on this site, but it appears to have few gardners. I wish we could have a national program similar to Victory Gardens in world War II. I think that would be a great thing for many of us citizens to get into.
Gardening for Democracy…save the planet a garden at a time..hey diane, cool idea.
And once again will apologize ahead of time to everyone if my posts today might not make complete sense…don’t like to keep mentioning this but am taking extra pain pills today which makes me a bit rummy to say the least.
I like your phrase Garden for Democracy, I may use it in future gardening diaries. Or maybe, Democracy Gardens, in place of Victory Gardens.
Hope you are not feeling too bad today, Choc, and your comments sound perfectly coherent. Have you been doing too much gardening?
It is hope to do what we are doing. I have this vain dream that our children will come and join us when they see their current lifestyles unraveling and how good our lives are down on the farm.
But, I also have nightmares of Mad Max warlord gangs raping and pillaging the goodly folk in the countryside when the shit hits the fan. The green communities I envision will have to be protected by a respected warrior class — that’s just the way humans are and getting rid of our dependance on fossil fuels won’t change that.
I’m sorry I haven’t been contributing to your gardening diaries. I’ve been in a funk about leaving my garden in Atlanta and living in an apt. here in Lynchburg until we can find the right property for us.
This past weekend, as I mentioned in another thread, we met a crazy farm couple and realized we know more about using their land than they do. The Bubba is still planting shallow rows in pale red soil and not even using the friggin’ manure from his wife’s 500 chickens to jump start his corn! When I suggested interplanting runner beans, he thought I was a genius.
Anyway, we volunteered to come back and help them out because we hate not putting our hands in the soil for even one summer. I can’t wait to show them what a deep bed built up with horse manure looks like — it will blow their minds, surely. So, I’ll be on the look-out for your diaries and contribute our experiences with their land until we have our own.
I know what it is like to be without a garden and I feel so blessed to have the tiny plot of land I have now. At one point in my life ex hus and I planted a garden at another persons big back lot, and shared produce with them in exchange. It was a bit of a hassle tho, to get there and tend and water the garden. So glad you will join me in future gardening diaries, maybe you can do one too and I will join in yours or we could alternate. Perhaps we could do ideas for gardening in the city, etc.
Your story about the farmer was so indicative of many farmers who do not even know about the benefits of companion planting or manure or seaweed which we have used here in Ca. living near the ocean.
A back to the land movement would be a very good thing for the country and the world. You don’t have to move to a farm to be a back to the lander, (this for the benefit of non gardeners) you can do it right in the middle of a city.
Hey I’ll be happy to make this a gardening diary right now, that will sure be hopeful in my mind.
BTW one of my daughters has already joined me in gardening in her tiny patio and she loves it. She has all the memories of the grand garden from when she was young and longs for one of that kind of her own. The days when I would send her to the garden to gather dinner and berries, those were wonderful days.
Countries and governments go through cycles, the poor nations get their act together and become rich – and the rich, well they won’t inherit the earth.
Another question to ask is:
How fast can we turn things around?
Followed by:
How to make sure it looks like something we want and is sustainable?
Believe it or not, it is called Sesame Street. Read my diary Culture Wars: How Sesame Street is Helping Save the World for details.
Aw, that’s easy: Vote Republican.
You see, there is a lot of disappointment with the leadership of the Republican Party right now, at least among the rank and filers that I know. We’re not happy with the way certain issues are going—particularly when “we” refers to younger generation Repbulicans.
The paleo-conservatives have been quick to adopt the mantle of “South Park conservative,” and claim that South Park shows conservative theory to be the best. In fact, SP makes fun of their kind just as much. So, while it does appeal to conservative belief ultimately, it rejects a lot of specific issues that abadon that belief. It’s a more libertarian conservatism, and it’s alive and well among the youth of the Republican Party.
So, we’ve been betrayed in some ways, and certainly have a lot of reasons to be disappointed, and maybe even to despair.
But if you look around the blogosphere, even the conservative blogs that are most critical of the Bush administration (think Andrew Sullivan), you see optimism that things will get better. It’s only on the left that you find this depression and pesimism.
So, the only thing left for me to conclude is that conservatism brings happiness and optimism, while liberalism (and I’m avoiding the classical terminology here, as in that context I consider myself to be a liberal) breeds depression, anxiety, sadness.
torturing people brings me sadness.
I don’t think we are… but if we are, it makes me sad too. That doesn’t mean there’s ever a reason to doubt the foundations of this nation, or the greatness that it will again achieve. Period.
are you in denial on TORTURE????????
WE ARE TORTURING PEOPLE.
Right now. At this moment.
This degree of denialism isn’t just irresponsible, it’s collaboration.
People like you, who don’t care enough about their country to face up to reality, are exactly why we are in the process of losing any “greatness” we once had.
Period.
it’s called patriotism.
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel
Let me hit (not violently, just meaning “get at”) BooMan, Matt, and Diane (who responded below—I’ll also address one of her specific concerns there) in this one response.
I think there are degrees of torture, so I should walk back some of my remarks. Sleep deprivation, water-boarding, other such types of primarily psychological torture, I can abide. Mistreatment of dead bodies, (severe) electric shock, physical beatings, and so forth I cannot abide. (I make the distinction of severe electric shock, because mild electrical currents can be used to do no damage but still induce a psychological response—psychiatrists use it to treat otherwise healthy people, without doing damage. Mild current to create conditioning of disincentive is ok in my opinion. When you’re causing burns, that’s crossing an unforgiveable line.)
Now, what went on at Abu Ghraib is unforgiveable. Unforgiveable.
But I also don’t think it was the intended policy of the upper echelons of our government. I think that what they did allow led to it ultimately, and for that they are responsible—but I also think that when they found out about how severe it had gotten they took the necessary steps to correct the problem.
As far as the Newsweek stuff this weekend—there are mixed sources on the issue. I don’t know how I feel about mistreating the Koran, except that I think it’s a dumb-ass thing to do if we’re trying to appeal to the non-Islamist Muslims of the world.
I also think that there are bound to be some extreme cases wherein we can save thousands, maybe millions by torturing one man. We need to build an apparatus that makes it almost impossible to take that action—but with enough review, keep our hands free to do what’s necessary. I know that’s an extreme position, but I have to be honest here. I’m sorry if that offends people, but I think it’s necessary—here me out on that.
I don’t think we’ve been in that situation yet. I could be wrong, I’m not privy to classified documents to know if we’ve averted another 9/11. But what if we’d had one of the pilots in custody before the event and needed to torture him to find out enough to prevent that horrific event? I have to say I’d endorse that. Again, I don’t think it’s happened since, so we have to sort out how to deal with such situations BEFORE it is authorized under ANY circumstances.
In short: psychological torture (which I know goes on) is fine, and probably shouldn’t be referred to as torture so that we don’t get it mixed up with the other; other, purer forms of torture are unforgiveable, and should not be allowed except where a significant number of lives hang in the balance. And I don’t think that kind of torture is occurring at the moment.
Oh my dear……We certainly have some fundamental differences here reg. torture.
You say that psychological torture is not torture then why did you call it torture. It’s right there in the name. Have you ever been tortured in a phychological way. If you read the testimony of men who have been so tortured I think you might feel differently.
As for the emergency torture, with all the exceptions and possible situations for usage I think you allow for the wanton usage of such as who will be the one to judge if this is that type of case. When we see the examples of usage of this method it is certainly indiscrimiately applied.
Well you have certainly landed here with a big bounce this time.
that torture is reasonably well defined in international treaties (signed by the US back in the days when it believed in laws) even if Bushco have trouble understanding them!
By the way according to nearly all military sources information “extracted” by torture is almost always “flawed”, and the whole idea of saving millions by torturing one at best belongs in the fiction of cheap thriller writers.
is never good enough for me. The long and short of this is, we need some new treaties and some new definitions. The technology has changed, the rules used by the opposition have changed. In response, we need to redefine some things.
Nearly all military sources, eh? Interesting that it’s still taught and used so often, then. Hmmmmmm. I wonder if maybe that’s because the people who will talk about it, the vocal minority even, announces with gusto how useless torture is. Meanwhile, the guys who are good at it, and know what they’re doing—they don’t want to a)admit to those methods or b)reveal their successes so they just keep quiet.
You see, we don’t ever hear about the averted terror attacks, or the times torture has worked. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t worked.
The bottom line is I don’t give a damn if torture works or not – if our civilization stoops so low it says a lot more about us.
How many people remember the Inquisition with fondness? No? Those that implement torture will be remembered as having ruled with terror. What a stain! No honor, truly pathetic and a lame high-jacking of what is civilized. I feel dirty!
Interesting point on the inquisition and torture. In Iraq a few things other than torture not remembered with fondness have been reintroduced by the “civilized” side: mercenaries and “justified” (or maybe just ignored) slaughter of civilians. Then of course there is the reintroduction and apparent acceptance of “if they do it, we can”, or “the rules have changed because of what the enemy do”. Those kind of sentiments are exactly the sentiments when those who see themselves to be “civilized” cease to be civilized.
It is an extreme example, no doubt. Caesar’s conquests are marred by torture as well (he however displayed some courage by leading his troops), though there are a few emperors who were sniveling cowards – and they were the worst of the lot, and are remembered as such. This is, I fear, the primary emotional state our leadership is in, and this era will be remembered for that.
On the flip side King George VI showed courage during the blitz when his palace was bombed and he refused to leave – this was great for morale. Though no direct incident involved our president, he went to hide in a bunker none-the-less. Having a coward in charge during a critical period, is a dangerous thing. A man of courage will face his enemies.
You are right, we do display many more uncivilized things than torture, however that will be the more defining event. We had an immense opportunity to show the world how a civilized nation conducts itself – unfortunately we ended up looking like barbarians.
All right, I’ll bite: let’s say you did have one of the 9/11 gang in custody and air control is telling you that four planes are headed toward New York and D.C. So you begin by stripping your suspect naked, maybe sodomizing him, definitely humiliating him as much as you can. Then, when that doesn’t work, you pull out your electric cables , attach them to his testicles, eyeballs, etc., etc. … and let the juice rip through him. All the time, he’s screaming, “I don’t know, I don’t know, please stop,” or much more likely, “They’re going to land in Central Park and demand that Israel release all its Palestinian prisoners,” i.e., anything to stop the torture.
A few minutes later, you look up at your TV and see that the planes have already hit the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. And you know what? The wretch you have spread-eagled naked on your torture table, bleeding from every orifice, is just as shocked as you. You see, he really didn’t know. It turns out, only one hijacker per one plane was trusted enough to be told the entire plan.
Now I don’t have any sympathy for you in this scenario. You’ve proven you don’t have any moral or ethical standards. But what about the 19-year-old GI you ordered to sodomize your suspect? Or the technician, just graduated college, whom you had attach the electrodes? Was it worth it for them?
In the entire history of “intelligence,” there’s not a single example of torture yielding positive results. When it comes to torture, there’s only one policy that’s effective and ethical: Never. Ever. Under any circumstances. Anywhere.
Glad you bit. 😉
Seriously, though, that’s a very difficult scenario you’ve laid out. And it’s a question of risk and benefits—if you knew ahead of time that this guy couldn’t tell you anything, of course you’d never torture him. The question is: are you willing to take the risk that he DOES know something and just doesn’t want to tell you?
Let me give you an example: you don’t torture him. At 10:00 on 9/11, without anyone having told him what happened, he looks at the clock on the wall and laughs out “by now your World Trade Center must be burning wildly.”
He had the information. You might have gotten it from him. Was it worth the loss of life that you didn’t try to avoid?
We’re never going to convince each other, but for me, that’s the more important question.
As far as your claim that there isn’t a single example of torture yielding positive results, that’s just not true. Just because the CIA doesn’t report such results doesn’t mean they don’t exist. Yes, you get a lot of false positives—yes, men will say whatever they must to make the pain stop if it’s done inappropriately. But that doesn’t mean it can’t sometimes work.
I find your rationalization of torture despicable and lacking any human compassion. You are entitled to your belief and your right to espouse it freely. I for one, wonder if you have ever experienced anything even closely resembling torture. Or could you living comfortably, somewhere in the US ( I presume that because you keep referring to US policies) that to you could care less that someone is being systematically dehumanized in the name of the US Government and that means in my name. I will never support any use of torture in any form, no matter what the cost. I will never allow, without adamantly denouncing, any member of my government who actively promotes its use. I can only hope that you will never find yourself in a situation where you are faced with the dehumanizing effects of being tortured by someone. I have and it is not something that I would wish on anyone, including you. I lived in an environment that included physical, emotional and psychological torture that completely took away my humanity, not only for the person who was torturing me, but from myself. You can justify all you want, for what ever reasons you can find, but in my mind, there is never ever and I do mean never ever any reason to torture another human being. I am trying not to judge you and despise you as a person, only your thoughts on this despicable act against another human being. Again I hope that you never find yourself in a situation that has someone trying to take your humanity away from you.
Maybe I suspect him of having some knowledge.
Or maybe I suspect you, and torturing you just isn’t resulting in the answers I want to hear.
What kind of torture will it be acceptable to subject your son, or your daughter, to, in order to put a little pressure on you to tell me what you know?
If I had a son who was involved in such attrocities, I would say he was just as deserving. But that’s not really the point, is it? What parent wants to see his son locked in prison? There’s a reason parents aren’t in charge of law enforcement for their own chilidren, and it’s the same reason we don’t let parents decide the sentences for perpetrators of crimes against their children—they’re not qualified, objective jurists.
Furthermore, there’s a reason I’ve said that I don’t know the process we need to formulate, but that it needs to be restrictive, and that we need to not allow torture except under those strict circumstances. We need several levels of review to judge urgency, severity, and reality of a threat before authorizing torture—it should never be used as a general practice, and it should never be used until we have such an apparatus in place.
This needs to be a last resort, and used only once in a very great while. I’m just not willing to rule it out as a tool.
yourself, or have your own child chained to the wall to face the tongs, as long as all of your very interesting conditions are met, naturally, no one can accuse you of being a hypocrite.
I will have the kindness to urge you to consider surgical prevention of reproduction, however, if it is not too late already, in which case, I will keep your children in my prayers.
Do you ever ask why? Why are people fighting in the resistance, why did 911 happen and so on. Do you think people grow up wanting to be suicide bombers, that this is what they want to do with their life?
Do you think the government wanted Abu Ghraib in the news? Would it have been news without the photos – no, we the audience here don’t want to hear our side commits atrocities and we won’t accept they do unless we can see it. We hear about sending detainees to places like Syria and Uzbekistan for interrogation, but we don’t complain about it – why? We don’t demand answers in part because it’s not our troops that are doing this and in part because we don’t have the proof the American public requires (photos).
I’ll add to Ductape’s list and also ask you this: If your country were invaded and occupied by people of a different culture with a different language, enriching itself through the resources of your country, denying you work, electricity, clean water etc…; your neighbors are dead, your child is missing limbs – what would you do?
I would revolt. But I would never, under any circumstances, target innocent civilians. There is no honor in that, and terrorism has an absolutely failed track record. It doesn’t work, it just steels your enemy against you.
Think about the insurgency in Iraq right now. Who are they targetting? Their neighbors who are working to create a free democracy. They targetted election workers until the election happened. Now they target judges and political leaders again.
That would be like me blowing up my state senator, or my governor because some other country occupied us.
And I wouldn’t need my neighbor to be dead or my child to be missing—I would attack immediately (thank God for that second amendment thing), but I would attack the soldiers, not the aid workers.
Do NOT try to defend the acts of murderous vengeance perpetrated by terrrorists. There is a distinct difference between a guerilla war and a terrorist campaign.
AP Your quote here “Terroism doesn’t work”. Well wht the hell do you think torture is? It is just another form of terrorism.
We invaded and by the very nature of dropping bombs we targeted innocent civilians – is there honor in that?
We implemented their government – they are targeting puppets, because they hate collaborators. Would you work with a new government of collaborators?
They’re targeting the weak spots, because that is the only impact they can have. In case you don’t get it – they don’t want us there, and as a result there are a lot more people that hate us.
a pretty stretched definition of the word “target,” so let’s look it up.
According to dictionary.com:
We were not intending to hit civilians. That there was loss of civilian life is regrettable, but unintended. These terrorists are intentionally targetting innocent people for setting up an election, or voting in that election. That is inexcusable.
As far as their not wanting us there… we’re gone when we get them on their feet on their own. If they can’t see that, then again, that’s regrettable—but that doesn’t justify their actions. And, if I acted the same way in their position, my theoretical misdeeds are not a justification for theirs.
write a testimonial for my blog?
Just click the link in the sig, scroll down to bottom right, you may post it here, or there, according to your desire, Sahib.
Would it make you happier if I rephrased? The bigger the bomb, the more likely it is to hit civilians. Either our leadership is mentally challenged not to grasp such a concept (hmm…?) and has no business playing with toys (weaponry) it cannot understand, or else it quite willingly kills civilians.
In the playing field of civilization we behave as juvenile delinquents, we wantonly destroy life in a conquest for oil and monetary superiority and have no regard for life. Do you favor going to war with Algeria? I hear Al Qaeda is very big there. How’s about Sudan, or maybe Somalia? No? Iran then, I hear they are dumping the dollar.
I have an idea – we could target an enemy that is actually worthy of a fight, be a bit sporting for a change. There’s China – those Maoists, let’s see Russia no longer has any pretenses of being democratic (what a snub). Or do we just like to go after those we can beat up in the playground?
and just how long do you think we should keep “training” the Iraqis? We have been training them for three years now. The death toll keeps rising. Why haven’t our troops protected these innocent people? Has not one high ranking officer thought of another method of lining people up to enlist in the Iraqi service and police department other than a long line outside a recruiting station? My God, these people are sitting ducks. And that seems to be just dandy with our troops. This is just plain ignorant.
and their collaborators.
Collaborators are targetted by the Resistance, so I assume you are referring to attacks on people lined up to gain the privilege of murdering their neighbors on the command of their US masters, since technically, unitl they sign away their honor, they are civilians.
“Cui bono?” is a useful question to ask when analyzing events, and contrary to mainstream American opinion, (which you express so eloquently, my compliments to your bureau chief) Iraqis are not brainless idiots.
Washington’s warlords, on the other hand, apparently think that the rest of the world is as in the dark about what a sparkle is as their adoring public.
There is absolutely 100% no acceptable amount of torture. EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hi Another and glad to see you back on this site. I am sorry I got to this late after you had posted but I want to take up the issue re. torture as discussed downthread.
I am curious as to your reasoning or thinking torture has not and is not going on right now? Have you read any of the hundreds of pages of stories and testimony, such as can be found on sites like aljazeera, and other middle east site. Have you read the reports of the investigations into the subject or listened to the hearings. Or are you of the mind that torture was done by a wayward few, totally unsanctioned by our government? I really find it hard to believe you would come to that conclusion if you had researched it as I and others on these sites have done.
Now as to your remarks concerning optimism on Rep. sites, I can’t figure that one out, how they could be optimistic in view of the problems, but then again they are the party slated to be in power for how long….was it permanent, I think Rove said, so maybe they figure that they can vote someone better into office.
Here on this side of the aisle we tend to feel that Rove and his machine will never allow the kind of man we (majority of citizen) want, but rather another version of Mr. B.
However, you do have one point about optimism, I think that we need to find some, somewhere and that is really the point of this diary. We need to have hope and we need to build that hope into action that will fullfill our hopes. Seems right now we are only looking on the dark side of things, each day bringing another dose.
So the question is can we at least be hopeful,and let that be the seed of change? I for one am vowing to start to view the world in that manner henceforth insofar as I am able.
Optimism is a great motivator.
I am hoping others on this site will allow you to express your views no matter what they are because you can give valuable insite into the way the Reps. are thinking. Plus it is much more interesting to have a discussion with those that do not hold the same views and to see if you can persuade them to your side. Which as you know I am still working on with you, Another.
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Never met a more optimistic person than myself, no Repug could meet that standard, because their policy creates false hope, just like a lottery. Statistically you have a better chance to get run over jay walking, than winning the lottery. Profits for the happy few.
Don’t follow their false line Repugs represent hope, Democrats are gloomy. BS.
Even more likely the opposite is true. The liberal, progressive folks are the ones with ideals, youth and irresponsible economic policy on the environment and pollution.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Because you’re right: youth is idealistic. The circles I travel in are primarily Republican, and mostly conservative. So when I say the conservatives are optimistic, maybe I’m mistaking that for youth.
I can admit that.
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I may have just given you my first 4.
Sorry … for having waited so long, but I often rate on emotion and not on intelligence. The latter is impossible to rate anyway.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
I really do appreciate it. Maybe I’ll even be able to keep the TU status I’ve earned here, despite my abject failure to earn it on DKos…
See my response to your post below… I think we have a lot to learn from one another, and if a few fours get thrown back and forth from time to time, then maybe we’ll just have to learn to live with it… 😉
There’s his hook.
huh?
Like I said above, I think the actions at the top led to the torture that has occurred—I also don’t think that their intent was to explicitly or implicitly approve such radical measures. Maybe that’s absurdly ideal optimism, but that’s what I believe.
I wouldn’t claim to have read all of the reports—especially in the past few weeks, you know as much as everyone that I’ve been extremely busy. I will never believe a word off of Al Jazeera, so we can dismiss them right now. Beyond that, I think efforts are being made to avoid the catastrophic misdoings like those at Abu Ghraib.
As far as conservative optimism goes… I don’t think it’s about power, or even politics. I think it’s just a different regard for humanity, that we can and will get out of anything. Modern liberalism teaches that we must look to the government for the hope of humanity. Modern conservatism (minus the bastardization of the far right these days) teaches that government has to be involved in that process. It’s a hope in people, rather than in the need for some external entity to intervene.
When I say conservatism makes me optimistic, I don’t mean that I’m hopeful for the future of my party, I mean I’m hopeful for the future of humanity based on my beliefs about the world. I’m extremely political, but I don’t think all things need be political.
What makes you think the people “at the top” have no idea what’s going on in our global gulag of all-American cum “outsourced” torture chambers? Take Maher Arar, for example. Do you really think some low-level immigration officer at Kennedy Airport would take it upon himself or herself to send him off to be tortured for a year in Syria? You don’t think they at least put in a call to D.C. before ordering that charter flight?
On the other hand, let’s not excuse the low-level people who “just obey orders.” In a just world, Rumsfeld and Gonzales et al would be working the same rock pile as the flight attendants who laughed at Arar’s tearful, desperate pleas and told him to “shut up and enjoy the movie.”
Wake up: this is the America you’re a part of — and, I gather from your posts — an unquestioning supporter of. Accept responsibility and start doing something about it!
there are standing orders about deportation. I don’t know the details of Maher Arar, but it is entirely possible that a cog at Kennedy ordered the charter on protocol.
Furthermore, if he called DC first, that doesn’t mean he spoke to Rumsfeld, or to Gonzales. There is a chain of command that has a lot of gradations—the guys at Kennedy would have had to go through at least 10 levels before hitting one of those two, and there’s no evidence that they did. If you can prove it, ok, but suspicion is not sufficient to condemn them. You’ve got a lot that points in that general direction, but nothing that makes a link, and nothing that comes all that close.
to go through all the channels, which included consulting with Canadian authorities so it would not have happened at such a low level. Further, if this was simply a case of low-level “bad apples” making a bad call, why haven’t they been brought to justice?
Further still, if this is a “standing order,” who’s responsible for executing that order? And why aren’t they doing time?
I didn’t say it was low-level bad apples making a bad call. I said it was the policies that were in place… the protocol that had been approved.
I don’t know that the protocol is a bad one. You’d have to give me more specifics of the case.
I want to address part of your comment above in this post reg. alJazeera, and you line above that you would not listen to a word they say. Did you ever wonder why AlJazeera was suddenly tarred and feathered by this administration and declared an outcast very early on. I know it was supposed to have been over the photographs of our dead that were shown on al Jazeera in the first part of the war. A big fuss was made over that fact, but our press has and still does show pictures of Iraqi dead, including some very graphic footage of injured iraqi’s being killed, not to mention the pics of torture at Abu G. I don’t think the Arab world takes too kindly to the incessant showing of those pictures either.
I have read the site (AJ) for several years now and for the most part they have very similar coverage as we do here but they do cover things that we do not get here and therefore, I feel, it cannot be dismissed out of hand.
Most of the stories on aljazeera are also covered by mainstream press in all parts of the world, but many of them are not covered here in any depth if at all, owing to the fear of the Admin.. et al that we cannot be shown the whole truth of anything. That is why we have to go to sources outside this country to get the real truth.
There is much to be known about the whole torture issue and I think you need to get up to speed on this (as you said you have not had time) before you jump in on all these questions you have been asked by others.
There are many other sources beside Aljazeera that contain this information if you can’t abide AJ. I am sure someone like Oui would get together a (small diary)on this subject that would be able to bring you up to snuff.
One more word, I find it interesting that my diary on Hope is now a diary on Torture, well perhaps there is hope that we will never, never again allow torture to become a part of our strategy for winning anything.
I think the base reason against torture of any kind could be that “Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.” Once you start on that road of torture is OK here and here but not here, there are too many chances for this to be abused. And as others have written on this diary; evidence shows there is little knowledge to be gained by torture.
for disregarding Al Jazeera have nothing to do with the Administration’s policy towards them. They have everything to do with the fact that Al Jazeera has been regularly caught willfully dispensing lies.
Remember when our troops were rolling into Baghdad and Saddam’s Minister of Information was telling our reporters that it was a load of crock? Our news services covered him with hilarity—Al Jazeera covered him as the one telling the truth.
——-
The problem in all of these cases is an underlying cultural phenomenon of which Al Jazeera is a part. We can’t keep excusing that demon for fear of turning this into a war against Islam. Yes, there are a lot of Muslims in the world who are not our enemy—but there is also a disease in their culture that turns them that way in a hurry.
Imagine if Bibles were being flushed down the toilets in some other country. Do you really thing there’d be riots in the US? I think there’d be protests. I think there’d be a lot of angry people calling their congressmen. I don’t think there’d be a single fatality, and certainly not the destructive chaos we saw in Afghanistan this weekend.
Al Jazeera has allowed itself to be a tool of the dictators and despots who want to keep the Muslim nations of the world docile, by being able to control their emotional response to everything.
Well thank you for your comment Another; as to the AlJazeera, I am not going to try to change your mind as you appear to be firmly entrenched in that position, and frankly that is the least of the problems I see.
I might point out to you that our media does not always tell us the truth, so are they better or worse than AJ. Also they(us media) have quite willfully lied to us or perpetrated lies as in build up to war in Iraq shows us. What is biased to one side, is unbiased to the other side and same goes for AJ.
I must also say that this is your interpretation as to what AJ was portraying the minister of info. Clearly AJ was also running stories of the invasion itself, so I find it difficult to believe that anyone watching AJ would think the Minister was truthtelling. Who actually said that was the manner it was portrayed.
As you know I have a friend in Iraq and she/they did not think it was the truth. People around the world and even in Iraq are not so dumb, they are capable of discernment..
About the Bible vs. the Koran I think the reason they (Muslims) have taken this so to heart is their particular faith strictly prohibits such things. That is my understanding. I think too that this was the straw that broke the camels back, on top of all the other abuses and infractions imposed by the US. Someone else with more knowledge on that subject will have to fill in here.
Remember, most of us on this site have been emersed in the Iraq War in depth since it first saw the light of day, so I am hoping that others will chime in here and shed some light on this for you. Perhaps we need a diary on the War with timelines, etc.
Sure looking forward to your diary, btw.
on the part of crusade enthusiasts and Bush loyalists has not been so much with issues of fact, rather than which facts have been reported.
The single issue most commonly referenced in the crusade’s early days, by both US corporate media and the warlords themselves, was related to Al Jaz’s coverage of Iraqi civilians murdered and maimed by US gunmen.
They were displeased that the channel did not follow the example, for instance, of Fox News, and focus more on the gunmen’s families, and the sophistication of the bombs used, and the stellar quality of the corporations that made them, and exciting plans for future weapons in the pipeline.
They did not like it that Al Jaz interviewed witnesses to attacks, as opposed to the gunmen who launched the attacks, and generally failed to confine their reportage to rewrites of statements issued by the Pentagon and their representatives in Iraq.
The impression was that the US is so stupid that it thinks if people do not see their neighbor’s house blown up on TV that they will not notice the crater next door, that unless Al Jaz tells them that cousin Ahmed’s new baby’s head was torn off, no one in the family will be the wiser.
On a couple of occasions, the BBC daringly showed western audiences a glimpse or two of some liberation up close and personal, and were roundly condemned by the crusadenets. England of all places! With friends like that! It’s time to ask if they really support the war on terror.
After being bombed twice, and having a number of their staff variously murdered, maimed, burned and beaten, Al Jaz has been effectively declawed, and now largely confines itself to echoing wire service stories.
US media resembles that of North Korea a little more every day, so I suppose the lesson to take away from this story is that real progress is being made in achievement of US goals and objectives.
“I don’t think there’d be a single fatality, and certainly not the destructive chaos we saw in Afghanistan this weekend.”
This type of elitist attitude is what infuriates the rest of the world, and this American. Your comment that they have a “disease in their culture” is rude and ignorant.
These people are without hope because our imperialism gives them little reason to believe that their future will be better unless they take matters into their own hands. Their basic infrastures are crumbling, their sovereign lands are currently occupied by outsiders (us), and now with the Quran desecration they see a direct attack on their faith.
That is a recipe for riots.
Also, you are wrong to believe that it is far-fetched to happen here in the United States. Look at L.A., Ohio and Michigan for recent examples on the power of people who have had enough.
This administration is as guilty as Al Jazeera then, it has routinely and without fail lied to the American people to further its Imperialist goal controlling the Iraqi oil and its infrastucture. I watch Bushco’s mouth move and know whatever comes out of it is lie or at the least a distortion of the truth. I find most of what you say so despicable in its content that I can’t help but feel emotionally ill, that you would state that any torture in any form, for whatever reason has value, burns me to my very soul. As a Human being, not just an American, all life is valuable, your bible in your Christ’s teachings clearly states that all life has value, all human beings are to be nurtured and cultivated to love each other. I will not nor can I ever accept that torturing another human being to gain anything, is an acceptable practice. I further will state that anyone who does believe in torture as means to an end, will one day have to face their maker and when that day comes, I hope you can justify your actions to whatever God you believe in. I will end this, this way. My hope is that the Great Spirit bless you and guide you, show you the way of truth, honor and true joy in the blessed state of being a Human Being.
I admire you, Diane, for your willingness to engage rightwing extremists, and I envy you for still believing that engaging them will do any good.
Still, I have to think that this thread has answered your question in the most convincing way possible. As long as a majority of Americans look the other way when their leaders commit unspeakable crimes, there is not a shred of hope for us or the rest of the world.
Thanks Matt. Here’s how I feel. I think that if we cannot change the mind of one person who has found his way here fully disclosing his position and in my mind willing to listen and engage in this discussion and others, well then, that may lead me to the place of no hope. But probably not, I will just try with another.
Matt, I really have to say this, and I have said it before and did a diary on the subject, we have to change or convert at least a portion of the other side (reps)or we frankly in my mind have no hope of changing this administration or future admins. We cannot do that, cannot even attempt to do that if we do not engage them in discussions. We simply must talk, reach out and take the time to educate. Then it is up to them, of course.
Still I think that Another hardly is a right wing extremist, he has described himself as a moderate in many ways and in my many discussions with him off site he has shown that to be true. Others may not agree, that is their choice.
I say to all of you having problems with Another’s views or any portion of them, hone up your postions and present them with simplicity and clarity and then let it go. Others will see it or not as they choose. We can make our case perfectly well to the initiated, but they are not the ones we need to reach.
In the end it is all a matter of choice, yours, mine and all the others in the world.
Hugs to you all for just being, and being here to make this remarkable community happen.
I am more hopeful than ever today that changes can be made and the world will indeed become what we all in our hearts desire. I am hoping that many will join me in this. We shall see, shall we not.
I love you all.
I really do admire your spirit. On most issues, I’d also agree that we need to work on persuading people. If this were a thread on social security or drilling in the Arctic or tort reform, I’d have an easier time coming up with cool, reasoned arguments. But cool reason fails me when someone tries to justify our sending an innocent businessman and father off to be buried in an underground coffin for a year, taken out only to be sexually abused, whipped with steel cables and blasted with electric shocks. How can one possibly reason with someone eager to condone and excuse that kind of cruelty?
For all these reasons, I have to disagree: Another Perspective is absolutely a rightwing extremist. And I don’t believe there’s any hope of “reforming” someone with such a lack of basic humanity.
for a lot of liberals in this country. You consider someone like me to be a “right wing extremist,” when really I’m pretty close to the center on this issue. There are a LOT of people out there who think there are circumstances under which torture can be justified. Getting angry, and frustrated, and casting me out as an “extremist” really just paints you as one instead—which is a double shame because I don’t think either one of us truly is.
You want me to have more humanity, I’d like you to have more humility. Your way is not the only way—neither is mine. If you can’t reduce your discussion to “cool, reasoned arguments” and your emotions get the best of you, then what’s the point in having the discussion? You’re not going to convince me, you’re not going to feel any better for having chewed me out, and you’re chasing away people who might be tempted to join your side otherwise.
And that’s part of what I hope to accomplish by making myself available to people like you. I hope to stay calm, and listen to what you say, and then repeat it through the filter with which I view the world. We have very different basic assumptions about the things that go on around us, and I hope to show you that the problem isn’t a lack of compassion on my part, just a different focus for that compassion.
I think it’s a shame that an innocent man was tortured, and I think whatever system allowed that to happen needs to be reexamined—I don’t think that means we need to rule out torture all-together. I think it can serve a useful purpose, even if ultimately we cannot isolate all of the false positives.
Now, I don’t know where my cost-benefit lies. I don’t know if five tortured innocents is worth saving 10,000 lives—I think that kind of calculus is despicable, and impossible. But I think if we do our best to restrict the use of torture to only very specific, very limited cases, we can almost eliminate the accidental torture of innocent people, and probably save a whole mess of lives along the way.
Just thinking that there are people like you in the world has cast a shadow on what would otherwise be a nice day.
Trying to reason with you makes me feel exactly like that Iraqi [i]you[/i] “centrists” covered in shit in the Abu Ghraib corridor. I have no idea how old you are, but if you’re old enough to type you’ve had more than enough time to realize that, along with murder, torture is the most evil thing a human being can do to another human being.
With that, I’m withdrawing from this discussion. And I intend never to subject myself to reading your ignorant filth ever again.
ANYONE< ANYONE ANYONE that condones torure to any degree is not even in the least bit interested in coming to the other side. By the way Matt, he is in his early twenties I believe and gors to Yale? I say, if you so believe in what your admisistration is doing then get your ass down to the closest recruiters station and over to Iraq and stand up for your beliefs instead of hiding behind a keyboard spewing your crap!
Another, I have read all of your many comments here, and I have viewed your perspective as it differs from mine and many others here. It has brought up some curious thoughts to my mind.
You have previously inferred or stated that you are a Christian. . .Yet you seem to be suggesting that
It would be my sincere hope that those of you Christians that feel you are so in the right in these stances really read and study what the one you claim to follow laid out for your understanding. My bible seems to differ substatially from the one the rest of you are reading. Do yourself a favor and do more studying of what it really says.
Don’t EVER try to talk to me about what the Bible “really says.” Your interpretation is probably, in some ways, just as much of a crock as someone else’s. There is no clear interpretation of the book, and it contradicts itself constantly.
That being said:
1.I have not once said that torture should be used as a punishment. Jesus was not tortured for information, he was tortured out of cruelty. That’s different, and inexcusable.
2.I think that allowing the unnecessary death and suffering of possibly thousands is just as much of a sin as torturing… there’s no relativism, sin is sin. So, pick one. You pick allowing an evil act to occur, I pick trying to stop it. Which one of us is worse? Neither, we’re both wrong.
3.When thousands are killed for the sake of one, that diminshes us all, too.
4.Again, allowing the death of untold numbers is inhumane in my book too. You have a different ranking than I—what if I were to say I find your tolerance for acts of mass cruelty inhumane?
you say:
I have studied the bible and religions for 40 years, at both an academic and “religious” level. The majority of Christians, and Christian scholars do not normally interpret those words that are attributed to Jesus, you know, the ones in red print, in the bible as anything other than the straight forward statements they seem to be. Perhaps your particular church or belief does, but it is not the norm.
Really? Then all of the statements in the bible and the historical background I have learned is all wrong. It was politically expedient to “teach him a lesson” in order to keep his growing followers under control. The Roman government wanted no alegence to someone other than Ceaser. Do you really believe that one political expedient act is inexcusable, and another is very excusable?
I could not agree more. Never did I say I condone killing one person let alone thousands. You have some how assumed that. If my statement was not clear enough, then I apologize, but I do not accept killing ever in any of its so called justifiable ways and means and reasons. There is no reason. “Thou Shalt not kill.” seems pretty straight forward without any need to find some justification for it.
You totally lost me here. Where did I say that I want to allow an evil act to occur? That is exactly why I am against torture and killing.
Again I agree totally with you. I am not only pained and diminished by the 1600+ of our young men and young women who have died for no reason in this absolutely fabricated war, I am pained and diminished by the 200,000 Iraqi men, women and children who have died and the untold thousands (36,000 Us troops alone) that have been maimed and injured by this action.
I would say that you totally misunderstood what I said, and if it was due to me not making myself clear, then I apologize. I do not have tolerance for individual or mass cruelty, as they are both inhuman.
The overwhelming evidence that torture produces absolutely no useful information tells me that our government’s participation in it is for some other reason and it is highly doubtful that anything useful comes of it except a smug feeling of superiority and hatefulness directed at an individual that is the symbolic representation of “the enemy.”
You and I will no doubt continue to disagree. That is our right.
As Jesus said, “Love one another as I have loved you.”
That I believe is a goal we might all wish to take to heart.
That doesn’t contradict what I said. He was not tortured for information, He was tortured as a punishment, or to teach a lesson. I have not condoned that form of torture in any way.
Again, I did not talk about killing. I said that NOT torturing someone may be the same thing as ALLOWING for many thousands to be killed. I consider that action (standing idly by while they are killed when you could torture one person and maybe save those lives) to be just as much of a sin as torturing the person in question.
I know I lost you, because you didn’t understand any of this from the start, apparently.
Torturing is a sin. But not torturing someone when it may lead to information that could save lives (thereby allowing those lives to be lost) is also a sin. So, by refusing torture, you may be acquiescing to murder.
I’m telling you that I’d rather torture someone than let thousands die. Doesn’t mean I like torture—just means that when I have to choose between sins, I tend to pick the one that will lead to the smallest possible loss of life.
And I did not mean to say that you are ok with mass acts of indecency—but when you decide that torture is forbidden under every circumstance, then you are setting up a scenario in which you are choosing not to torture one guilty man, and instead to allow thousands (maybe some day millions) to die instead. That is the same thing as condoning the acts that he helped plan.
I just had this thought with regards to your position on this subject.
How would you square this with our non negotiation with terrorists policies, when they are holding one or more citizens or just in any case whatsoever. In that case the sacrifice of some money(or other concessions) may bring about the release of hostages, but we say no, can’t negotiate with terrorists. So we can’t negotiate with them but we can torture them if need be. Even if it means the death of one or more people, we cannot negotiate. There is some sort of irony there, methinks.
Seems to me we might be better off trying to negotiate period, than to try to extract info, via these means.
I know, I know, everyone says, that would be giving in to them, but heck, someone needs to explain to me how it is better to torture on the one hand but bad to negotiate on the other.
Sets up a system where they have no choice but to fight, rather like in the Senate at this time.
This is just a what if: but what if Bush administration were to actually try to negotiate with the insurgency, sit down and talk with the leaders and see what can be done to solve this problem, make some concessions and get it over with.
By refusing to talk what are we doing, dooming ourselves to generations of terrorism.
WE sure can’t count on the admin. or Karen Hughes’ team to propagandize them out of existence.
Seems like we have the same problem in Korea and Iran, “oh no can’t talk to them, but maybe bomb them someday, but definitely no talk.”
Maybe we don’t want to talk and just to bomb, maybe we don’t want to negotiate just torture, maybe we don’t want peace on Earth, but just war. Says a lot about us as a people and a nation.
these people don’t want concessions—they want the destruction of our way of life. They are aiming for the downfall of western society, and if we give them what they want when they have hostages once, they’ll take more hostages and ask for the next piece of their puzzle. Where does that process end?
I highly recommend the children’s book “If You Give a Mouse a Cookie.”
The problem is that is what we are told, ‘they don’t want concession, total destruction of our way of life’ but is that true.
That is a concept that has been skewed just like this whole war thing into a truth, but really I think it is not the truth. They have spoken (look it up Osamma incl.) and made specific desires they want, never the total destruction of our way of life.
This total distruction myth is part of the construct, used to sway people, such as yourself into thinking that there is the danger. In my opinion there is far more danger from the US to the World, than there is from the terrorists to the US. That is unless the Admin. can blunder around some more and make some more enemies and false moves and really stir up the whole Arab world. Then they may truely want the end of the US and Western Society.
Look another, you have been brain washed to some extent to believe just want they want you to.
I know you often attribute my beliefs to naivete… but I have to say that’s one of the most naive outlooks I’ve ever seen. Do you really think the world is going to be better if all American troops pull out of the mideast?
They want all of our culture out, too… strange that the number one television show in Iran (number one) is Baywatch…
If we give in to the demands of Osama, he’s going to up his demands. In the meantime, his desires are not the desires of a majority of Islamic people–so we should allow him to depress their existence to his will? I don’t think so.
Well I said it was all a what if, didn’t I and no I don’t think that pulling out of ME will work at this point, certainly not. Now we have created a scenario that makes this impossible at this time. Doesn’t negate the fact that something else could have been done with situation Iraq, et. al. like not going to war, and if so, handle it better. Further, we need to get our collective heads out of the sand and realize we cannot kill every single terrorists and would be terrorist or just everyone that seems to be one.
In Baghad they watch Oprah and Friends, and according to my friend they love the shows from here. Also American Idol is played there. That is when they have electricity, which has gotten even worse in the last month.
Still in all, negotiation seems to me the best method to use in many of these situations, unless of course we want wars so as to use the mighty military complex we are building ever larger and to line the pockets of Bush’s buddies.
What are you so angry about lately. Your posts seem on the edge of anger and that is not like you in my recollection. These are all just words, they are not actions or deeds, lighten up, we all have things to learn. Republicans or Democrats are not always right, we are all trying to figure things out and make our voices heard..
Your comment about Osamma, upping the ante, well no one,no group has upped the ante more than the good old USA. Really depends on your perspective doesn’t it.
It would not be profitable for the people who are making money, and nobody can guarantee that after the last 80 years, that it would be anything but too little too late in terms of saving a future for the US itself, but it would save a lot of lives in many places, and it would save some American lives.
The US is just one country. Removing the US may not make things better for Halliburton and Dyncorp and Raytheon, but it would give millions of boys and girls around the world a chance to grow up, and grow up with two arms and two legs and two eyes, and for the folks for whom every day is 911, courtesy of the USA, that means a lot.
“You know I am a busy guy”? but not too busy to spend hours at dkos and now here? Yeah, right! Far right!
Another thought: there is still plenty with which to be discouraged. I’ve effectively been chased off DailyKos tonight, and I’m rather discouraged by it. (My username there is RFTR, by the way). I hope I’ll find more welcome as I come over here more and more often, and less groupthink. In the meantime, I am anything but optimistic…
DailyKos tonight. That is what I consider hopeful! You see, we’re opposites.
Original diary title —
A Ratzinger Inside dKOS? ¶ Ex-Communication ¶ My Dear KOS Community …
by Oui Fri May 13th, 2005
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
They don’t want to hear anyone who doesn’t agree with their vision of the world.
You and I have had our fair share of disputes here, but we keep coming back for more. Why? Well, I can’t speak for you, but I come back because I want to understand your position. Even if it doesn’t change my mind, I hope it can mature my perspective and create a fuller opinion.
I respect you, and more importantly perhaps, I respect your opinions and your right to hold them. Kossacks (by in large) seem to hope for my silent acquiescence too their world view. You want to persuade me, and to give me the opportunity to persuade me in return. I’ll always choose the latter path.
give me the oppportunity to persuade *YOU in return.
It’s mutual.
Do I heard the same arguments Diane101 has been using, to convince me of the same – to just communicate – with one another?
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Diane found me on DKos, and she’s the reason I first came over here to Booman. She’s a friend, and I daresay a close friend (she can correct me if I’m exagerrating, I suppose). While we disagree on a lot (see this thread for the perfect example) we agree that the only way to improve the world is to understand one another.
I hope you endorse that as well. I’m preparing a diary (my first) right now about why bipartisanship is a crock, but why inter-party communication is of the highest importance. Check back tomorrow (probably mid-to-late afternoon for that. I hope you like what you see.
At how you and Oui have worked things out so amicably. Cheers to you both.
Yes another and I certainly are close friends now after I did an intervention with him after seeing him get trounced on DK. In that case I happened to agree with what he said, but it was not the common thinking on Dk and of course was therefore trolled out of existence.
I can’t wait to see your diary. I am really so glad to see you back on this site. DK’s loss is our gain. At least to me.
This asshat was NOT banned(although he should have been a long time ago) at Dkos. Don’t hook into his Poor me crap. Go look at his comment over a dkos. He says just the right amount of ok things so he hasn’t been trolled into oblivion. HE IS a TROLL!!!PERIOD!!!
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Terrible – telling me to go over to dKos right now, with mask over my eyes, duct tape covering my mouth and hands tied behind my back.
Did you lose the Hawaiian Lies I sent you by my comment?
Maybe not sleep well last night? LOL
Pax
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Oh Oui…I am so sorry. In the heat of my anger over this slime bucket trying to pull the wools over others eyes here…I completely forgot about your altercation over there. Please, please forgive me. Have you heard anything back from Kos yet?
4th email got quick response from Armando, fair and hopeful.
One night and 12 hours later another exchange of emails, looks like issue could be resolved, final decision needed. That’s thirty hours ago – silence since.
%*D¤ó£ Damn, that 1 hr shop to switch off was fast service!
The ON function is probably outsourced to India. <snark>
Please do not respond here - better in diary. Do not want to upset dKos folks.Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Thanks for the update. Will not ask anymore.
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Twist with Another Perspective
Did you see this exchange on recent diary —
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
oh yeah…guy is a real ass in my opinion. Smooth…kind of sociopath type…no what I mean?
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I abhor when someone fills a thread by repeating replies …
as if someone is inarticulate.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Absolutely and never answeres the question but instead poses that you prove his view isn’t wrong instead of him giving proof of his point of view. I will not troll this person unless it gets overt. There is too much that we need to be doing other than bantering with a person that doesn’t listen. That is not a real exchange of ideas. So condescending to me.
Never said I was banned.
Just said I’d been chased off—as I feel I have.
I’ll also ask that you attempt to refrain from profanities directed in my direction. I know you and I don’t get along very well, but that doesn’t mean you have to use dirty language to express your opinions or even emotions—and if you feel you must, I’d appreciate if you could avoid using them to refer to me.
I extend you at least that courtesy, and I’d appreciate the same in return.
If you choose not to abide by this request, that’s fine, and totally within your rights. But when your posts devolve into cursing in the future, don’t expect me to engage you (which may, of course, be all you’re looking for).
And you are a liar. No one chased you off you said you were leaving. As soon as I saw that I knew you would come crawling back over here where you have made one or two email buddy friends. That’s fine but I highly resent you being here.
The first thing out of your mouth here is in response to having hope is to “vote Repuglican”. Give me a break. Then you proceed to “inform” us that we are all a bunch of negative and”depressed” people. I would say BS.
Tribe members…if not familiar with this idiot go look up hidden comments at dkos. He’s an instigator and troll. Oh he uses big words and has the ability to stay calm under fire but don’t let him fool you.He never answers a question directly either. Go back to threads he was on here awhile back. He disappeared after some posters call him out and pinned him down. I mean honestly, this was suppose to be a diary on Keeping Hope alive and this winger comes here and hijacks and makes it into a discussion on torture and why we poor liberals are losers, depressives and should vote republican. Go to Freeperland!!!
You and I have been down this road before, so I will not go into all of that with you. He did not start the torture discussion, Booman did, and he just answered Booman and then others jumped in, so Booman was the one who hijacked my diary, blame him. But to me its fine.
You can have your opinion aloha, but let others have theirs also.
This is so reminiscent of my Debate with a Neocon which you objected to also.
My suggestion, don’t read his comments.
Remember this is an open site, not limited to Dems.
Ease up Aloha, this is not the end of the world.
Okay Diane maybe you missed my post that he is a liar. He was not shunned from Dkos he left on his own accord. Go to hidden comments there and read the thread where he says he gives up. He was never banned.
I will never condone torture or someone that says the way to change things is vote Republican. I came to your diary looking for hope and then I come across this idiot. It has nothing to do with you or your great diary or our previous “issues”. And your right about this being an open forum and so in the light I also have a right as a “trusted user” on this site and at dkos to express my opinion. I have a right to call anyone out no matter what party they belong to for being a liar. Don’t take my word for it Diane go and read his comments at dkos, mind you, under hidden comments. They are hidden for a reason. I don’t feel I should even have to defend myself for my comments but feel it is important.
Unfortunately I am no longer a TU on DK so I cannot see hidden comments. I have followed his comments a good deal on that site and I understand your feelings. No one is asking you to condone him or his views. Just to let us have this dialogue with him if we choose.
You know he is a trusted user on this site as well, which he became such on just that one Debate diary.
I am not going to defend Another as far as his comment as they are his, just as your are yours, and mine are mine.
I choose to take the side of trying to change those view I do not like, not silence them..
Of course he says to vote Rep. he is a Rep after all, and I think it was said tongue in cheek FWIW.
Aloha I will defend your right to speak as well and I do.
We are all capable of discernment are we not?
I have enjoyed many wonderful comments from you in the past and I am sure I will do so in the future.
Please don’t let (issue)this take away from the hopefullness in this diary and others, in fact I think it can add to that.
I am sure Another will chime in here soon and answer some of your charges, I cannot.
So Aloha, speak on and often, I look forward to hearing more of your comments, maybe not so much on this issue but on others surely. I always read your comments whether they are on my diaries or others as I find your comments very worthwhile.
PS. I don’t think he said he was banned…….read his comment over again.
Hugs to you Aloha, if that’s ok. Emoticons needed badly here.
Okay, Diane. . .
You deserve a 12 on that one. . .so just multiply by 3.
Everytime I think I will comment on these concerns of Aloha, you do it so well. . .and if you would quit stealing my words, I could say them myself! LOL
You go girl. . .both you and Aloha, you are both participating in exactly what this site was intended for.
Brava!
Thanks Shilstar…from someone here I highly respect.
The best hope for the USA is to abandon the twin aims of military power and dominion over the world’s resources. Much is made of the likelihood that today’s teenagers are likely to have a “lower standard of living” than their parents. By that of course those economists mean they will have less money and less material possessions.
While they may not necessarily all be living off “three acres and a cow” there are compromises like the “slow city” movement that can improve the quality of life while avoiding the excesses of the present.
My fear for the USA is that the politician may not be able to adapt to a new position in the world easily. A change in the political mind set – dare I say arrogance or chavanism – is too often only brought about by a great national trauma. The USA has only really experienced something like it during the Civil War. Europe had the two world wars to bring us together. Those wars and Vietnam were to a large extent easy on the USA in comparison. The casualites, though large in absolute terms, were nothing like the generational slaughter of the WW1 trenches or the civilian death toll in WW2. I suppose the question is whether the lessons of defeat in Vietnam and Iraq will be learnt or whether after a period of introspection, the military will again become ambitious.
The world outside of Europe and North America may be in the process of what may prove to be their sea change. The AIDS epidenic may well end up decimating the third world’s population. Infection rates in some countries exceed 25% of the adult population. When the Black Death swept over Europe in the middle ages, it had the surprising effect of increasing the wealth of those who survived. Their labour became more valuable. It may just be possible that the long term outcome for the third world will be similar. Outside of the USA the developed countries are coming to a consensus that it is morally and in the long term essential that the poorest states get justice in the form of debt relief and fair trade. The real danger for the USA is if this produces a form of solidarity from which they are excluded.
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World Class Soccer Star, one of the greats with Pele, Beckenbauer, di Stafano, Puzkas, Luigi Riva.
Johan Cruyff was a small straatschoffie from Amsterdam, has excellent theoretical insight into the game of soccer. The positioning of individual players, always looking for better chances to gain advantage. As player nearly 100% based on natural skill, ball control and game instinct.
“Elk Nadeel Heeft Zijn Voordeel”
When you are in a disadvantaged position, it provides unique opportunities to gain advantage.
When you are outnumbered, because many players are concentrated on you, that defines the space elsewhere, where teamplayers will have an advantage in field play.
It’s a simple statement, but has plenty of insight, also for daily life.
It is also an expression of HOPE – where you need to pursue every opportunity in life.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
I am ready for the flaming remarks of those who will suggest that I am ignoring reality. But since we all have a right to our opinions, and opinions run the spectrum from diligently researched and fact filled to “this is just the way I feel”, I will throw in my 2 cents worth.
Those of us who care very deeply about our world and our circumstances have become overwhelmingly serious. As we look around us and see what is happening in our own country and the many inhumane and devastatingly cruel policies that inhabit so many places in the world, it touches a place of pain and outrage deep within us. People in general feel some part of this. Some of us not only cannot but will not pass silently into that good night without attempting all we know to do to change it.
These things can and do weigh heavily on our hearts, our souls and even our physical bodies. It hurts. And many, many of us have become so serious as to not find any moments of joy in our lives at all these days.
Let me make a strong statement about my philosophy: Perspective is everything. How we choose to look at circumstances and the possible outcomes and ramifications of various situations is how we experience our lives.
When we change our perspectives, we change our lives. And that includes any perspective. If we view all or most things negatively, that’s what we experience, that is what we get: negativity. Conversely if we view things as hopeful or look for the positive ways that we can choose to interact with our circumstances we get positive results.
Begin by getting over yourself. Yeah, you, all of you all of us. We are all important and worthwhile and valuable in this world, And in the greater scheme of things none are more important or more valuable than any other. Yes, even those in positions of power and those in positions of ultimate, seemingly powerlessness. That is what our founding fathers were talking about when they said all men are created equal.
Stop taking yourself so seriously. Learn to laugh at yourself and you will be amazed at how much better your life will become. Laughter is the most healing energy we know. Most of you are aware of the studies that show the huge benefits to personal health that laughter brings. Someday maybe I will write a proper diary about that and link to the studies.
Laughter is healing. And it is more important that we laugh regularly than it is that we point our great intellectual knowledge towards solving a myriad of problems.
Please, find a reason to laugh. Find a reason to want to make others laugh. Then find the greater picture of all that is happening in the world today and from that view and from the restored energy and relief that laughter brings, know that you and others WILL find the answers and the strength in numbers and the force of concentrated effort to change the situations that seem so often hopeless.
Laughter is hope. From the refreshed place of physical and emotional and psychological health there is the strength and the inner conviction to see HOPE and to know that we can individually and collectively make a difference.
As long as just one of us can see there is HOPE, there will be hope.
And I want to deeply thank my dear friend here who brought me 4 hours of laughter last night. My heart and my soul are restored and renewed, which allows my vision of HOPE to expand and points me clearly in directions to actively make a difference.
Hope is a growing movement in which we are the fuel that propels it.
As the dear friend referenced above; let me also thank you for our hours of laughter last night, which did restore my soul in many ways.
Next time we will have to schedule such time earlier in the day as our conversation ended at about 1:00 and I could not sleep until 3 and then up at 7. Bit tired and rung out today but my spirit is soaring.
I could not have said better what you have outlined above and I wholeheartedly agree with you. As I said on another thread (sjct’s Daily Pain diary) we need those bits of humor thown into comments by Ductape and others, they do help us to relieve the stress. They really do….
3 cheers to you Shirl
I appreciate your kind words. I stand by my feelings about this guy. And I appreciate the non political diaries you have done, such as this one was meant to be IMHO and others likeTell us about You.
This is just my perspective so take it or leave it. The Republicans as a whole have done nothing but divide this country since Bush and company stole the 2000 election. I believe that there is no other reason for someone such as AP to come to a site like this or Kos other than to divide. And he has already started doing that by 1.)befriending you, now he has a friend here and 2.) Pitting us one against another.
Again, this has nothing to do with you but believe me, he is lurking around watching us debate and he is getting off on it. Again, that is just my opinion. So in the future if I respond to anything he says maybe we can just agree to disagree when it comes to AP and not engage in this back and forth about him instead of the topic of the diary.. Deal?
I perfectly agree with what you have said. Please feel free too Ahoha to add a comment about hopefulness if you are of a mind to.
It seems not much on this site remains non political as it always winds up that way. Even on the Tell us about You diaries.
I am in much pain today, so this typing is killing me and will try to take a break now and rest my arm.
Thanks for your reply! (smiling emoticon here)
Take it easy and take care of yourself. So sorry to hear you are in pain today. Bummer, no fun. Back to what I get paid for. Work…somebody has got to do it!
Another interesting diary, diane.
I think there is hope in the world… if you’d asked me that even a few months ago, I might have answered differently. I also think there is hope in the US, not only politically, but socially, much as it may not seem like it now. What signs do I see?
Well, I see Gospel-based Christians, of all political beliefs, pushing back verbally, in print, and in the media against Republican politics hate-based “Christians”. A little late, and only breaking through the right wing noise with difficulty… but they are there.
I see people standing up more and more against the hate and bigotry being directed by the Republicans and the Republican party based religions against gays and lesbians, and saying… ‘no more’.
I see ordinary people finding areas within themselves and within talents they didnt even realize they had, taking up positions to fight for liberal/progressive principles, for the poor and the elderly, for people in other countries where our policies cause tremendous misery.
I see people who formerly supported invasions and endless war to spread US imperialism, realizing that the blackening of the name of the US throughout the world, the deaths, the torture policies, the monetary costs and the costs to our national psyches are just not worth it.
Other things as well, little steps, some of which are huge for some people, and many of which will have little effect for probably a long while… but still, people are realizing there is no rest, there is no giving up, there is no backing down.
Speaking of torture, I also see the people in this diary not backing down one inch in the face of the morally bankrupt arguments in favor of torturing people, whether they are innocent victims (as some have been), or not.
So, yep… lots of hope 🙂
Diane, there is always hope.
As long as I stand up for the dignity of a person, especially when they are incarcerated in my prison, there is hope.
As long as I react with revolt to someone who says torture can be justifiable in some instance, there is hope.
As long as I am humble enough to admit that I, or my country, is capable of making mistakes, there is hope.
As long as I am willing to fight for justice, and fight against the imperialism of the Bush Doctrine, there is hope.
I refuse to give up. There are some things I refuse to yield, one of them is hope. If this makes me an extremist, then so be it.
I appreciate all of your comments and all, I really do, I know how you all feel and I feel the same. I do not condone it either. I think we need a diary on this subject, Torture ‘is it ever justified’ and go from there if others want to talk about this.
Personally I think we all better get busy and inform our government of this desire because I recall listening to many a congressional hearing where they did exactly say that torture was permitted in special circumstance. that I believe is still on the books or somewhere in some memo or whereever they keep these things. I have also heard a lot of congress persons state their belief in the need for torture in extreme cases such as (if you knew a suicide bombing was coming etc..) and they weren’t all Reps. Correct me if I am wrong, please….
In general, I think there still needs to be more of an outcry over this, as congress is dragging their as…s in this regard and prosectution of higher ups is absent.
We also have big problems with detainees in general, no rights, no trials, no representation so that they are all lumped into this one big mess and making things worse for the US by the minute, day and hour.
Torture or mistreatment in the prison system is a subject that needs attention also, in a big way. Prison reform in general is sorely needed, here and then around the world. The unhumanity to man is just simply deplorable. Homeless people also need some help.
Oh well that will be my last word on the subject of torture on this dairy of hope, ending with the words I am extremely hopeful we can remove all vestiges of torture from this world, let us begin…..
PS thanks for all the “hopeful comments made by so many of you, I do appreciate and love to hear them.
Shirlstars you are one incredible debater. Points well made, clearly stated and well mannered. I wish I had your capacity to stay balanced when engaging with someone as this person.
I am posting this comment downthread due to the width of the diary.
First of all I want to correct my statment to Another above thread, I thought was talking about my what if statement as being naive, when I went back and read my previous comment, I realized he must have been referring to my “construct” comment.
So I will answer that, my idea of the contruct around “the terrorists want to wipe us off the face ofthe earth,” comes not just from me but form many learned commentators and statesmen. It could be now that they do want us gone, after all that we have done and all of our actions, but the story that was sold to the American people was just such, they want to wipe us…..and that was done, IMHO to make people believe that there was no other choice but to kill and eliminate them (terrorists). It worked too, because everyone, mostly bought it. However it appears to me, that our reaction to 9/11 was to untimately kill at this point in Afganistan and Iraq, well over 100,000 people, probably much more than that number. 9/11 had slightly over 3000 deaths, juxtapose that over the 100,000 dead.
Bit of an over reaction, what? Further, out of that 3000 number of WTC, only about 900 were Americans, not sure of the exact number.
So, what it appears to me that terrorists or AlQuaeda, want is for us to get out of holy sites, get out of middle east, stop war mongering, etc.
I am not going to look up all the links and post them to support my argument, because I have been through all of that and its not worth it to me to do it now for you. If you are really interested in searching for the truth, you can do it.
I guess the bottom line in all of this, with you and these discussions, is that you have bought the whole package of the Bushco, admin. What would it take to pry those entrenched beliefs out of you.
It wasn’t hard for me to find the truth, I searched for it on my own and did not take the word of anyone. Did not want to believe that anyone would so cruelly use the people and the power of this country for what ends, that remains to be seen, and it was with that in my mind I did my search.
BTW are you keeping up with the disclosures that Bush started to plan this war with Iraq, soon after taking office and Frontline did a very good piece on “Rumsfeld’s war” (that was the title and can be found on frontlines page), months ago saying that very thing.
You know a lot of info, real hard info can be had watching Congressional hearings. Most of what is said does not get into mainstream Media.
Within that orthodoxy, terrorism is any opposition or resistance to US policies regarding its resources and properties around the world.
While the US has, over the years, utilized any number of people and entities for the purposes of implementing its policies, veteran CIA assets like Agent bin Laden (sabbatical) and what’s left of the expendables rounded up in the 1980s to fight the proxy war with Russia are not what threatens the safety and security of ordinary Americans.
People who believe that their lands, their resources, their sons and daughters, belong to them, and not to the US are indeed considered terrorists, and they do indeed wish the US to cease aggression and disarm, cease installing puppet dictators, cease colonialism, by whatever name they call it, whatever clothes they wish to dress it in.
It is those policies that constitute the gravest, most real and yes, immediate threat to the people of the US.
Colonialism has never been popular with the populations in the target nations, and while technological advances have upped the stakes for the colonialists, the popularity of the practice has not increased.
Yes, there are by now billions of people who want to kill Americans. Not out of hatred of freedom, or even hatred of Americans, or even revenge, but just plain old self-defense.
It is not realistic to suppose that that number will diminish if only the US can slaughter a few more thousand people, seize a few more countries, open a few more torture camps, pay a few more Hosnis and Saudi Princes and Hashemite dollahos to do whatever it takes to keep any democracy from springing up.
A culture that prefers spending a dollar to kill someone else’s child over spending a dime to care for their own is not compatible with human life on earth, much less a future of its own.
Ductape, we are doing a diary within a diary, aren’t we. I kept trying to get someone to post a diary about this, but no one bit, so I guess maybe tomorrow I will do a diary on this subject for the edification of Conservatives.
There is some really good writing and cases made on this thread, buried in this thread I should say.
Thanks for assisting me here in this defense or is it offense, I can’t tell anymore.
Yes this “culture of life” we are supposed to have doesn’t seem so to me. I guess it is only for the rich and the soon to be rich. What I can’t figure out is where they are planning to live. Is that why we are building a space station, to house some rich people after the US is destroyed. Probably is a giant contruction up there and we don’t know it, top secret..
We are just gonna have to take back this country and change these policies…
Oh I long for the good old days with Clinton…Wouldn’t it be great if the only thing we had to worry about now was a white house sex scandal.