I’ve written 2 diaries already about my email conversation with Col. (USMC, retired) Pappas, one yesterday, and one earlier today.  Read those if you’d like more details about our email conversation.

As promised this diary contains my latest (and last response) to him after the fold:

What follows include excerpts from my May 26th email to Pappas which I’ve highlighted in italics, Pappas’ response from this morning (in “plain text”) and my most recent reply today which is in block quotes and bolded text.  Hope that won’t prove too confusing.

 * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

[From my May 26 email]
Dear Mr. Pappas:

Thanks for your response to my email.  You ask me if I considered whether the allegations contained in the recently released FBI reports were lies concocted by “the enemy”.  To answer you: yes, yes I have.

Is it possible that all these allegations are lies?  It’s possible (anything is possible) but consider the following:

1.  The Defense Department has released documents that evidence systemic abuse of the Koran, and also evidence a specific training program put in place at Guantanamo to avoid future abuse.  Obviously someone in the military believed the allegations or they wouldn’t have put in steps to stop the abuse from continuing.

[Pappas]
I disagree that it is obvious.  It is not obvious that someone believed the allegations, what is obvious is that the allegations prompted them to put rules in place without regard to their veracity to head off the possibility.

Well, apparently the International Red Cross disagrees with you.  They claim that they disclosed what they viewed as credible evidence of abuses of the Koran to the DoD in 2002, and that the policy I described was implemented in 2003 in response to their urging the government to take action.  You can read about it in this story in the Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/19/AR2005051901879.html

[From my May 26 email]
2.  These FBI reports were conducted in 2002, before prisoners were allowed to mix together.  If they are lies, it’s an amazing coincidence that so many of them independently came up with the same lies.

[Pappas]
I don’t regard it as an amazing coincidence. I understand the Arab Muslim mind, it is one of connivance and treachery. Nothing they concoct suprises me and I believe very little of what they allege. If one had pictures, I would believe it just as I believed the Abu Ghraib photos, although compared to beheadings for sport Abu Ghraib is a misquito.

I think you are unfairly tarring an entire people and culture with a broad brush. This is blatant prejudice on your part. What proof do you have that the Arab mind is conniving and treacherous? This is the type of mindset that led to the internment of Japanese Americans during WW2 even though there was no evidence that they were disloyal.

As for your comment about the pictures at Abu Gharaib, were you aware that most of them have not been released to the public? So if we can’t see the photographs the abuse never happened? People get prosecuted and put in jail everyday Mr. Pappas, in cases where there is no contemporaneous photographic evidence of any crime. If that is your standard, should we release all those who have been convicted where such photgraphs are not available?

[From my May 26 email]
3.  The FBI reports (collected at the ACLU website) specify whether upon further investigation the allegations made are considered to be unreliable.  The reports on the Koran abuse in question do not so indicate.

[Pappas]
Of course, the ACLU would never, repeat never show anything that would undermine their preconception of events without regard to truth. Why would a obviously thinking man as yourself accept the ACLU’s word, which has a clear agenda, over those who risk their lives to enable the ACLU to do so?

Mr. Pappas, it wasn’t the ACLU that issued those reports.  Let’s be clear, it was the FBI.  As for their contents, the reports speak for themselves.  Go read them.

Second, I agree that the ACLU has an agenda:  they believe in protecting the rights granted to all citizens under the Bill of Rights to our Constitution.  That is why the ACLU defended the Nazis when they wished to march in Skokie, Illinois, even though many of their members are Jewish.  That was why the ACLU supported Rush Limbaugh in his efforts to prevent disclosure of his private medical records to Florida authorities who were investigating Mr. Limbaugh for alleged criminal activity in obtaining narcotics through fraudulent means.  They didn’t agree with the American Nazi Party, or Mr. Limbaugh, for that matter, on many substantive issues, but in both cases they believed that the protection of the Nazis’ and Limbaugh’s civil rights from Government oppression was more important.  I think that is something all Americans should applaud.  Certainly the protection our hard won civil liberties is one of the fundamental values for which our Armed Forces have fought and died over the years.

 [From my May 26 email]
<>4.  These reports were also specifically excluded from the initial disclosure pursuant to the ACLU’s FOIA request, and the ACLU was required to obtain a  court order compelling the Federal Government to turn over copies of these FBI reports to the ACLU.  Clearly someone in the Federal Government was concerned enough about the validity of the allegations that they actively sought to keep them secret.

[Pappas]
Simply because the ACLU sought a court order does not mean that the absence of the information implied wrongdoing. It is a routine practice in all administrations, in all departments, to exclude information that could be potentially harmful to the security of the United States.  If the information proved to be true, it would harm US security, despite the fact that it would have been an improper action, so it follows that it would have been excluded on that premise alone. Is that a good policy? If it protects the lives of Americans on the battlefield and at home, the answer is and unequovical, “yes.”

Then you must disagree with President Bush and then Secretary Powell who said after the Abu Gharaib photos came out that we would proceed in an open and transparent manner to deal with these abuses and to punish those deserve punishment in the interests of justice.  Secretary Powell specifically said watch what we do, watch how democracies deal with these matters.  I believe that is a good policy.  

If America stands for anything in the world it stands for justice and the protection of all persons from governmental abuses and wrongdoing.  What better way to show the Arab world that democracy is a better system than to demonstrate how our Justice system deals with those who commit wrongful and illegal acts of torture an abuse in our name.  What better way to earn the respect of the Arab world for our soldiers than to show that we will protect the human rights of all peoples, even those who we hold as prisoners.  Would that not gain us more protection for our soldiers and weaken the resolve of our enemies?  Would that not lessen the support for our enemies if we demonstrate clearly to the Arab world that we stand by the principles of justice and democracy we proclaim so proudly and so often, instead of adopting the same tactics employed by the numerous repressive regimes in that region?

[From my May 26 email]
5.  Whistle blowers in the military have come forward with reports which authenticate other allegations made by the Guantanamo detainees (for example, allegations of beatings and of humiliation regarding religious practices such as that where women interrogators attempted to sexually arouse detainees, touched their genitals, and threw what they claimed to be menstrual blood on them, all things anathema to observant Muslims).  These practices of attempted religious desecration which have been confirmed support the allegations of Koran abuse evidenced in the FBI reports.

[Pappas]
Assuming the humiliating tactics are true, which I doubt, (I’ve read no reports of “whistle blowers” reporting sexual and menstrual activities), I would have been first in line to condemn such a practice, it is a mental leap to conclude that the allegation of flushing is true. Be careful not to conclude that allegations of abuse by internees in an FBI report is the same as evidence. It isn’t.

Perhaps you missed the 60 minutes program (link: http://mathaba.net/x.htm?http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=203092 )a few weeks back in which one of the soldiers who had been stationed at Gitmo specifically described these abuses which I have related to you.  In fact, he said their were additional abuses he could have talked about, but was prevented from doing so under orders from the Pentagon.  I find it odd that they permitted him to describe beatings and sexual humiliation, but not describe other abuses of which he claimed to have knowledge.  Nonetheless, this testimony came not from the detainees or their lawyers, or from the ACLU, but from one of the soldiers stationed there.  I think that alone should justify an independent investigation of the practices at Gitmo and other facilities.  In fact, Congressman John Conyers has done just that by sending a letter to Representative Sensenbrunner, Chairman of the House Judiciary Committee, requesting just such an investigation.

[From my May 26 email]
I’ve yet to hear any evidence that demonstrates these allegations are not credible.  Instead we keep seeing more and more details come out about the systematic abuse, both physical and psychological, that is being inflicted on the detainees held at Guantanamo and elsewhere.

[Pappas]
So, one can lie, claim it is true and since no one steps forward to debunk the lie, you assume it to be credible. Unfortunately, that does not follow logically. I would expect the internees at Guantanamo to be subjected to physical and psychological harassment to extract as much information from them as possible, which is not abuse when the nation is at war, and it is in a war for its survival despite misguided arguments to the contrary.  These are not criminals under the jurisdiction of the liberal US court system well molded by the influence of the ACLU to protect the guilty through a web of trickery rather than determine whether or not a perpetrator is in fact guilty. OJ Simpson is a prime and well known example.  They are enemy combatants who were captured in the course of combat. There are no civil liberties available or should there be any accorded to them. In fact in many cases the Geneva Convention does not apply because they were not uniformed combatants.

Mr. Pappas, you are assuming that these detainees are guilty, and that everything they say is a lie.  The truth of the matter is that neither you nor I can judge whether these allegations are lies, or honest accounts of abuse.

I’ve always believed that people are innocent until proven guilty.  Even the Nuremberg tribunals and other war crimes tribunals after WW2 have always started from the proposition that even the worst villains are entitled to the presumption of innocence and a fair trial in which the burden of proof is on the prosecution.  This principle was applied to the Japanese officers who plotted Pearl Harbor and led the Battaan Death March and committed other atrocities against our troops.  If it applied to them, a far more dangerous enemy who killed and slaughtered far more people, soldiers and civilians alike, than any Islamic terrorists to date, why should it not apply to the detainees we hold in Gitmo and around the world.  Why now should America abandon these principles of justice and fairness for all individuals that have served us so well over the course of our great nation’s existence?  Are they somehow a worse enemy than the Nazis or the Japanese militarists were?

I also believe that the best way to ascertain the truth is to make the fact finding process transparent and open, and independent of those who are under investigation.  The truth will eventually come out Mr. Pappas.  I suggest it would be better if that is done pursuant to a process that is fair to all involved, both detainees and soldiers alike.  Let the world judge us by how we respond to these allegations.  If they are false, they will be proven to be false.  But let us not prejudge the outcome merely because we dislike and despise those who are making the accusations.

Regarding the rights of the detainees not being covered by the Geneva Convention, that is a canard.  America is a signatory to the CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (here’s the link:  http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cat.html)  which specifically applies to all persons regardless of their status.  It prohibits both physical and mental abuse of detainees, and also prohibits the rendition of detainees to other countries for the purpose of having them subjected to torture as part of their interrogations (something we know that the Bush administration has permitted).

[From my May 26 email]
I’d also like to point out that Newsweek’s story was sent to the Pentagon for vetting before it was published (an unprecedented move in itself) and the officials there did not object to the story regarding Koran abuse.  Indeed, the later objection to the story by the Administration never denied that the abuse took place, but only that it did not appear in the specific report where Newsweek’s source had claimed he had seen it.

If your research on the subject found the same information that I have found, the Pentagon didn’t approve or disapprove because the investigation was ongoing. If you were to send something to me for vetting and I was not ready to comment, would the fact that I am not ready clear  anyone to run a fallacious story whose clear intent was to besmirch ones own country in particular in the eyes of an already prejudiced Arab world? I think not.

The Pentagon did tell Newsweek to remove some items from its proposed story.  I think it was fair for Newsweek to assume that if the Pentagon felt the allegations of Koran abuse were false they would have objected to them, in light of the fact that they had objected to other parts of the story which Newsweek then removed.  It is also curious that no one in the Pentagon came out against the veracity of the Newsweek story until after the rioting in Afghanistan had occurred.  This is not to excuse Newsweek from all fault.  Clearly they should have tried to find another source for the story.  But to claim that Newsweek knew this was a lie and that they deliberately ran the story anyway in order to run down the military is not supported by any facts.

 [From my May 26 email]
As for the claim that Newsweek intentionally planted this story in order to discredit our armed forces, and is thus responsible for the deaths of rioters and soldiers, I notice that you didn’t address the remarks made by President Karzai and General Myers, that the Koran desecration story was not responsible for the riots in Afghanistan.  Now perhaps both Karzai and Myers are lying, but I suggest that there is a strong likelihood that they were telling the truth.  At the very least, their comments should give any reasonable person pause before jumping on the “Newsweek killed” bandwagon.

[Pappas]
It is possible that they are lying to quell the outrage against Newsweek, but they would probably characterize it differently. If memory serves me correctly,  I wrote my piece before the  Meyers /Karzai statements reported today. And while we are on the subject of information reported today, please note the following article.  http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/26/politics/26cnd-koran.html?ei=5065&en=acc4abbd5d55e35f&ex=1

117771200&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print

I am surprised you would make this claim.  General Myers and President Karzai may have lied to protect Newsweek?  That seems a big leap to take.  General Myers has sworn an oath to his country.  What possible reason would he have to lie in order to protect a news magazine?  As for President Karzai, I also wonder what could possibly motivate him to suggest that it wasn’t Newsweek’s story that set off these demonstrations, but opponents of his regime who had long planned do take these actions.  That makes him look weak, doesn’t it?  Far better to say it’s all Newsweeks’s fault for stirring up a spontaneous demonstration than to admit that he his regime faces well supported and well organized opposition.

As for the story about the recanting detainee, I’m glad to hear it.  However, I would prefer to have the detainee himself come forward publicly in the presence of his counsel and repeat that he made the whole thing up back in 2002.  Forgive me if I want something more than just the Pentagon’s bare statement that he has recanted.  I also find it strange that the DoD took three years to investigate his charge and only now received this revision of his testimony.  Why couldn’t they have done this back in 2002 or 2003?  Would have saved everyone a lot of grief, yes?

 [From my May 26 email]
I don’t think it does our country our soldiers any favors to cover-up the torture and abuse of detainees in this “War on Terror” nor to lay the blame at the feet of a few “rogue elements”  as you claim in your article.  I would hope that you would support a full and independent investigation of these allegations to either clear the reputations of our Armed Forces or discover the truth and place the blame on those to whom it rightly belongs.  This would be the American way to respond to these claims, not with increased secrecy, cover-ups and the smearing of the reputations of those (whether whistleblowers or in the Media ) who have reported about these charges.

[Pappas]
Nor do I believe it does our national security any good for us to air our dirty linen to the world. If there was abuse that violated rules or law, then appropriate action should be taken, including severe discipline, but to air it to the Muslim world that would not know truth if it hit them in the face does little to insure the safety of our military and civilians at home or abroad.

Put closer to home, if you were caught with your pants down in a compromising position, would you want it aired to your enemies who would cut your head off for sport because of it? I think not.

Mr. Pappas, I must strongly disagree with you.  Our national security does not depend in this instance on keeping secret evidence (and yes testimony is evidence, even from detainees) of torture and abuse.  The whole world now believes that we torture and demean Muslims whom we hold in captivity.  Further secrecy and cover-ups will not change that fact.  What we should be doing is showing the world how a true democracy founded on principles of human rights, responds when allegations of torture are made against our Government.  Not by hiding this “dirty linen” as you call it, but exposing it ourselves, and dealing with in a fair and open process to get to the truth of the matter and to punish those who deserve punishment for any such torture in accordance with our laws.  

Mr. Pappas, if our goal is to spread Democracy, and convince the Arab world that our system of government is one they should adopt, how can we possibly accomplish that goal if we adopt the same tactics of torture and lies and secrecy that are employed by the many repressive regimes in the Middle East?  How can we win hearts and minds by adopting the tactics of our enemies.?  Only by demonstrating that our system of laws provides justice to all, no matter what their ethnicity, citizenship, race or beliefs, can we hope to win the hearts and minds of Muslims around the world.  

Indeed, our security depends upon acting the way Americans should act.  Not with secrecy but with disclosure.  Not with protecting the guilty but with defending those who are at their mercy.  This was the reason our forefathers fought a revolution: to escape the tyranny and oppression of a tyrant king.  To found a government based on principles of human rights: rights of a free press, free speech and assembly, the right to worship as we choose, the right to a speedy and fair trial after arrest, the right to bear arms if we choose, and the right to be protected in are homes from unwarranted government searches.  These rights, Mr. Pappas are the rights we wish to spread around the globe.  How can denying them to anyone further that goal?

It isn’t head chopping terrorists we need to fear the most, but the denigration and loss of our sacred rights.  For when we deny rights to one person, it gets easier next time to deny those rights to others.  Let us not go down the path that tyrants favor.  Let us remain Americans.  More importantly, let us act like Americans.  Torture is un-American.  Let us not sanction it.  Let us do our utmost to eradicate it.  That is the path to true  national security.

[From my May 26 email]
Here is the link to the ACLU webpage which contains further links to the FBI and Defense Department documents that have been released so far in response to the FOIA requests: http://action.aclu.org/site/PageServer?pagename=torturefoia

I hope you will avail yourself of the opportunity to review those documents yourself before reaching any definitive conclusion about who is lying about these claims of abuse and torture.

[Pappas]
I stand by my earlier essay.
Semper Fidelis,
Bob P

I think that is a shame Mr. Pappas.  A damn shame.
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