Well, this is the first time this has happened to me on Booman–the thread to the first gender diary is so big, I can’t open it.
So, without further ado. More stuff:
I posted this on my personal blog at Stregoneria
P.S. Dead chuffed means being thrilled about something. It’s one of those English expressions (I was born in Manchester). I always sort of think of it as being so happy about something you think you’re going to get all choked up.
One of the most disheartening things for those of us who consider ourselves feminists is the sense that it has become a ghetto term; the Right was successful in labeling us as man-hating FemiNazis (or, as one recent Dkos poster referred to us: “menstruating she-devils”), when the irony is that feminism is the bedrock of progressive politics. Feminism links the private with the political, interrogates how restrictions on personal behaviour echoes out to national policy, and understands gender not as “sex,” but as power–who has it, who wants it, and how those in power get to portray those who do not.
The discussions of the personal, which could be categorized constitutionally as those things covered under the “right to privacy,” principally things such as abortion and gay civil rights, have come up repeatedly as the things that people are willing to throw overboard in order to save the Democratic party. But I would urge no surrender on any of this.
Maybe you think that abortion and gay marriage don’t matter. Maybe you think they’re things we’re distracting ourselves with. But my argument, nay, my plea, would be for us as progressives to consider the personal issues as political issues and realize that if we take away anyone’s right to privacy, eventually, we will lose our own.
We need to reclaim the body. If we claim the body, then we are able to say categorically that torture, capital punishment, sexual repression, gender inequality, are not part of the progressive agenda. If we claim the right to privacy, we are able to say that illegal search and seizure, religious indoctrination in schools, public prayer, refusal to sell Plan B, abstinence-only education–all of these things–are not acceptable. If we claim gender as power differential, we are able to see how the sexual humiliation of Iraqi prisoners is tied into notions of dominance–the same notions of dominance that will be used against all of us.
And it’s gender studies that have allowed us to see these things. Gender as defined by Joan Scott:
Scott’s definition of gender has two parts and several subsets; they are interrelated but analytically distinct. Her definition rests on two propositions:
1. gender is a constitutive element of social relationships based on perceived differences between the sexes;
2. gender is a primary way of signifying relationships of power.
Riane Eisler had this to say about the personal as political and our reluctance as progressives to discuss it:
Today, it’s regressive fundamentalists, not progressives, who are more comfortable talking about the personal as political. They, not progressives, dominate the debate over “private” life and “family values.”
Yet family relations directly influence what people consider normal and moral in all relations — public as well as private. We must challenge the reactionary, increasingly fundamentalist “traditional family values” agenda. We cannot build a healthy democracy on a foundation of authoritarianism and intolerance — in the home and outside it.” Continued below the fold
Family relations affect how people think and act. They affect how people vote and govern, and whether the policies they support are just and genuinely democratic or violent and oppressive.
Slogans like “traditional values” often mask a family “morality” suited to undemocratic, rigidly male-dominated, chronically violent cultures. They market a “traditional family” where women are subordinate and economically dependent, where fathers make the rules and severely punish disobedience — the kind of family that prepares people to defer to “strong” leaders who brook no dissent and use force to impose their will.
How can we expect people raised in authoritarian families — where men are ranked over women and children learn that any questioning of belief and authority will be punished — to vote for leaders whose policies promote justice, equality, democracy, mutual respect and nonviolence?
It’s not coincidental that for regressive fundamentalists — whether Christian, Hindu, Jewish or Muslim — the only moral family is one that models top-down rankings of domination ultimately backed up by fear and force. It’s not coincidental that the 9/11 terrorists came from families where women and children are terrorized into submission.
You do not have to be a woman to recognize that gender and feminism are inextricably tied to the progressive agenda. You do not have to be a woman to recognize that when progressive males start shitting on so-called women’s issues, they are missing the point. If you do not understand how power works, how it is rooted in the binary oppositions that we ascribe to the sexes, then you will continue to focus on saving one tree while the entire forest is being razed.
I guess I am not with the times. I always am happy to consider myself both liberal and feminist. What’s wrong with believing that women and men are equal and should be treated equally?
I don’t always agree with individual feminist stands, though usually I do. But I would never consider the term anything but positive–like justice, freedom, kindness, etc. Feminism is just plain good values.
Where I occasionally differ is on issues of sexuality. I will take an example actually from my mother’s life. My mother is and always has been feminist. She was co-ordinator of Women’s studies at Cal State Northridge. At one point a battle erupted over the issue of pornography. At first she followed her fellow feminists on campus in opposing porn in a blanket way…until she realized that the side she was choosing meant she was rubbing sholders with some people she couldn’t like, mainly far right wing religious fanatics who also were anti-choice. She backed off from the fight pretty fast and realized that deep down she saw the issue from a more civil libertarian viewpoint.
I managed to be blissfully unaware of most of the “Pie fight” on Daily Kos. Just happened to not be blogging as much. So I haven’t read the give and take on the issue. My initial reaction is that the ad isn’t so bad–so some men find the ad arousing. Sexuality ain’t a bad thing. But then I do think exploitation is a bad thing. That is where sexuality issues become fuzzy–when exploitation is occurring. It is had for me to know where to draw the line. Prostitution: is it an issue of how a women chooses to use her body or is it an issue of exploitation. Of course too often it is exploitation of a person who has lost all control of herself because of drugs. But not always. I knew a woman who was studying prostitution from a public health point of view (comparing legal and illegal prostitution). She found, for example, some pretty empowered women (and men!) running the prostitute’s union in Amsterdam.
It bothers me that a site like Daily Kos seems to have exploded over the grey areas of sexuality. Again, I missed most of it, so all I see is an inane ad that I find mildly offensive but no big deal and a site I came to respect exploding over it. I can see the issue from either side.
Anyway, perhaps this is the wrong place for some of these comments, but it has been bugging me tonight that Daily Kos seems to be hurt by reactions to an ad on the site. To me the fight needs to be breaking the glass ceiling, giving women around the world easy access to birth control and women’s health facilities, empowering women worldwide through education and business, etc. I wish the fight didn’t have to sometimes be a pie fight ad.
My favorite feminist organization: the Global Fund for Women.
I think what you’ve said is crucial. And I think that most of us would agree that it wasn’t the ad–it was Kos’s front page reaction, which loosed the hounds of misogyny, that led to the mass exodus. BUT, I think this is a POSITIVE thing. I think that new coalitions are great–and look at all the fabulous energy here.
Second. The pornography issue. Yes. I don’t want to start a war, but I was not a fan of MacKinnon/Dworkin’s take on that. I think I want to not step into that fight right now.
Again, I missed much of it. It is a pity if Kos came off misogynist. Maybe I picked the right week to take off from politics a bit!
Anyway, hopefully good things will come of it in the end. Thanks for the good diary.
but honestly, Markos’ response wasn’t a surprise to me. I did get a chuckle out of him accusing us of having knee-jerk reactions while he was in the middle of having one himself.
I think I posted “it’s not the content, it’s the context” 10 or 15 times in various threads before
I finally threw in the towel and posted my “confession” last night.
Why so few people outside the women (and a guys) who were trying to be reasonable, ever got that message, I have no idea. But I was ready to slap the next person who screamed “censorship!”.
But really, I wasn’t surprised that it was Kos himself who did it. Markos is and always has been a partisan democrat, not really a liberal. (I think Meteor Blades said that first.) If you view him that way, what he posted really isn’t very surprising.
My problem is (and was when I first started visiting kos nearly three years ago) that when neither side is actually offerng me much of anything, deciding who to vote for becomes doubly hard. And the deomcrats wonder why a lot of women, Just. Don’t. Vote.
My wife, if she blogged, might lay into you for that! She is a strong partisan Democrat and a strong feminist and sees them as very strongly linked.
I personally am also a strong Dem. Even though I don’t always like the party, it is the best thing that has come along and no alternative has seemed even vaguely viable or desirable to me. So instead of throwing up my hands I am getting active WITHIN the party to try and push and pull it the way I want it to go. My contribution is small, but if we all did it then…well I guess we’d get something like DFA.
but it wouldn’t necessarily change my mind. I have voted in every single election since I turned 18. Local, state, national. But like a lot of people, I don’t fall into an easily categorized demographic. I have neither a husband nor a partner, no children and never wanted any. I believe in a strong public education system but I don’t always agree with the peripheral studies beyond the three R’s especially when my own nieces and nephews can’t write a decent sentence to save their lives, most days.
I’m not sure where you live, but I can tell you, locally in Georgia, sometimes the only difference between the Dems and the Repub’s down here is the letter beside their name on the ballot.
Over the last two elections I have canvassed, written letters, protested at the capitol, registered voters and donated more money to both progressive candidates and 527’s than I could really afford, and frequently in the name of issues that affect me not at all personally.
The one issue I cannot escape in all of this is my value as a human being and as a woman. And in the past few years, I’ve watched the republicans actively attack my rights and the democrats, as often as not, not defend them.
I have great admiration for Gov. Dean, and I love his 50 state plan, but between the infighting in my state dem party and the near total (but totally understandable) pass the dems are giving my state within and without, I’m feeling a little political fatigue. I could blame Zell Miller, but really, anyone who knew him as governor here, wasn’t surprised.
So, mostly, nationally, on the federal level I vote democratic, but locally, it’s about 45% democrat/35% republican/ and 20% libertarian.
My experiences are in California and New York, primarily. Now that may sound like I have only experienced progressive paradise, but I did live in San Diego, the county that, outside of the Deep South, has the largest KKK presence and spawned the guy who founded the skinhead movement. So I know what it is like to be outside progressive paradise.
I completely agree that in the past 4 years the Dems have forgotten how to fight. Dean, Gore and a handful of others are trying to bring back the fighting spirit to the left. Interestingly, I think some of the stronger advocates to standing up and fight are from the South (Gore, Byrd, Carter). Zell Miller might be a Georgia Dem, but so are Carter and…forget his name…the guy in the wheelchair. They rock!
But that is all beside the point. You are disappointed in the Dems. I understand that. I also am not seriously telling you who you should vote for, though it is definitely my impression that currently ANY vote for a Repub in essence encourages the anti-American, anti-minority, anti-women, anti-everything not rich and Republican Bush administration. I have a REpublican friend in NYC who ran for a judgeship. I think she would have been a good judge. Couldn’t vote for her because she shared the “R” with Bush. I cannot vote for anyone who shares that “R” with Bush.
My main thing right now is to encourage people like you to get MORE active WITHIN the Dem party. That is the only way I know to get the party more progressive and more distinct from the Dems. We have to get in the trenches and SHAPE the party. Locally I am heavily involved in politics and, living in Brooklyn, the biggest fights are making in roads into the only Repub district in NYC (Bay Ridge and Staten Island) and fighting the corrupt Dem machine that runs too much of Brooklyn without actually effectively reaching the voters.
Anyway, good luck in Georgia. I don’t think Georgia is a lost cause for progressives and populists. I think we need to get back to our progressive and populist roots and then we will win honorably.
I was there before Scoop and have UID in the 700s. I’ve been known to get rather heated myself, and that site has seen its fair share of wars (I’ve managed to avoid most of them), but I’ve never seen people I respect and enjoy so much be this affected by something there.
I don’t go to dailyKos for Markos. I go for the news and conversation I get from other people. My favorite folks are migrating, and I’m coming along.
My problem is (and was when I first started visiting kos nearly three years ago) that when neither side is actually offerng me much of anything, deciding who to vote for becomes doubly hard.
Common veil that is exactly it. If its just two bunches of guys – both of them ignoring women then where do we go?
Is a good place sto start, if you want to support women’s issues overall, but the reach is limited.
I have some hopes in my own state that Democratic SoS Cathy Cox’s run for governor will be a viable run, and at the same time, I’m at odds with her because she doesn’t believe in verified voting and paper trails.
It’s very frustrating.
Good grief. Why would anyone come out AGAINST an audit trail.
Got me. But please do recall that this is the same state whose Superintendent of Schools Kathy Cox (Kathy with a K)wanted to replace the word “evolution” with “Biological changes over time” in public school curriculum.
(You know until she was practically laughed off the planet) But seriously? No one asked for her to step down and they should have.
They just passed a required 24 hour waiting period for women before she cna have an abortion — like most women who have to make that choice went directly from their HPT’s to “Oh, I think I’ll take the afternoon off and get an abortion.”
It passed the house 139-35. It passed the Senate by a vote of 41-10.
Like I said, sometimes the only difference is the letter beside their name on the ballot.
is between a anti-abortion R who will oppose such things as wage equity and family leave, and an anti-abortion D who supports those projects?
Admittedly, the choice sucks- but sitting out on the sidelines just doesn’t work to drive policy.
We vote for real people who will operate in a real political system- not in some rarified realm of political theory. The proper question for any voter is:
If my vote just happens to be the deciding one (and some day it might be)- what can be achaived with that vote.
It isn’t just about the idealogy and character of the individual candidates- but also about the way those individuals and their political allies will influence policy decision by the government as a whole.
For example (and this point has been repeated ad nauseum)- electing an anti-abortion D to your state legislature, if that gives the Ds the majority (and if your state’s D leadership is pro-choice) no anti-abortion statutes will be brought to the floor. To me this means that (given the pro-choice platform of the D party) a vote for a D, whatever their individual position, is a vote for choice.
Like the Rolling Stones sing- “You can’t always get what you want… but if you try sometimes you might… just get what you need.”
I agree! And look how much pressure has been brought to bear on Republicans that don’t sing the tune…look what they did to Specter at the start of the year. Presumably the same pressure could bring no-choice Dems in line. Of course we never would.
And in your scenario I’d vote D but in this case the more likely scenario is between a anti-abortion R who will support such things as family leave but not wage equity and an anti-abortion D who will support wage equity and not family leave. Seriously. In Georgia there are virtually three parties: Republicans, Democrats and Progressives, except the progressives actually call themselves democrats and live (and represent) primarily the Atlanta Metro area. Almost anywhere else in the state? You’d be hard pressed to to tell the D’s And R’s apart.
To be really clear, I never said I wouldn’t vote. I haven’t passed one up yet (not even run-offs) and I don’t intend to. But in the last election, there were quite a few offices that didn’t have anyone opposing the incumbent republican (including my congressional seat, I believe)
Sorry. I really, sincerely did not mean to drag this down to state politics.
I’m in a crummy frame of mind for this but I do truly appreciate your very constructive and supportive tone.
The constructive and supportive tone took a lot of work on my part and I’m glad it was appreciated (although the fact that it was an effort means I have more work to do…)
But don’t apologize for dragging things down to the state level- as the Tip O’Niel said- All politics is local.
Hey there. Just wanted to chime in w/ my $0.02.
I’m just disgusted with his behavior. And I repeatedly tried to argue that if he’s so damned concerned with his image–oh, the tin foil hat fraudsters!–why in the hell is he running this ad on a blog that’s supposed to be about serious political thought/information? All you need is a screen shot and a letter thundering, “Why is candidate X posting on a site promoting pornography???” and he can again watch is ads dry up.
Nose. Face. Spite.
Maybe because Democrats are so “wimpy” that some of the little boys are overcompensating.
Wouldn’t be the first time.
I’m a partisan Democrat–a VERY partisan Democrat. So I have to laugh when he says he’s a “reform” Democrat. He’s more of a “same stupid shit; different damned day” Democrat. I’ve been to this movie before, and I know how it ends.
As I wrote in Catnip’s GBCM diary:
I’ve put up with this in one form or another for the better part of 10 years. While folks were busy ignoring politics, I was in the midst of “Republican Revolution.” I’ve supported anti-choice candidates, for the “good of the party.” Had to fight like hell when certain DLC elements wanted to pitch affirmative action. Toed the line on trade when it was killing me to see people who for years made a decent living now reduced to Mcjobs that don’t pay a mortgage or a car note.
This Black woman is just plain friggin tired of being attacked from first one corner and then the next. I’m progressive now out of self-preservation–not because I believe most progressives truly are or truly care.
If this was about African-Americans solely than I believe I’d have read the same reactions. The Civil Rights Act of ’65 pre-clearance provisions have to be authorized in ’07 and I have NO confidence it will be taken seriously. Can’t be seen as taking orders from THEM, you know.
Oh, and the “I’m not sexist” BS is like someone calling me a n—– but saying they’re not racist.
I think what the whole porn thing comes down to is the attitude and the context (duh), not the content. The context of porn in modern culture – almost always – is the trivialization of both women and sexuality issues. I’m not going to say whether or not it’s always bad as, frankly, I think my brain’s too saturated with our own culture to objectively make that judgement. But I do think it’s very definitely something that we want to avoid – we don’t want to ban it, but we also don’t want to promote it.
I agree with you 100% about this “single issue”. The entire “progressive platform” is interlinked. Throw any part overboard and the entire thing collapses down a slippery slope. Throw away abortion rights? You’ve just ceded control over who lives and dies to the government – capital punishment, eugenics, and drafts, here we come! Throw away workplace equality? There goes the notion of “you get paid fairly for the work you do”. And once those two go, what else follows them?
I’m not sure which is more basic – this or the power differential – but you really can’t separate the two.
And compromising on these issues is not acceptable. Historically, such compromises have tended to wind up being permanent until someone’s willing to risk civil war to get things changed. We’ve seen this over and over again with slavery, with discrimination, with unions…
I always go back to C. Wright Mills on this: where do history and biography intersect? How are private troubles related to public issues?
Feminist consciousness raising provided a space for analyzing those issues in a gendered context. My hope for sites like this, where comments and conversation are particularly prominent, is that similar things can occur.
I think it also calls for a complexification. The history of feminist movement has exhibited divides along lines of race, class, ability, sexuality…How do diffferent systems of power relations intersect with each other? Those differential social locations among women (and other categories) make single-identity politics more difficult, as they call into question the universal category of “woman” (or man or gay or African American….)
I watched the feminist movement start to splinter over class/race/sexuality issues–remember very well the first time I heard the word “womanist.”
I agree that this is all terribly complex and the whole “binary” structure thing immediately breaks down; the next thing you know, you’re standing in an interstice! (okay, lame joke)
if it’s a bad joke. It’s a great word 🙂
One of the things that has struck me about this whole situation is the feelings I get as a male feminist. I always feel a little wary about making feminist claims with that y-chromosome sitting there, even though I also feel like I’ve got some pretty decent feminist cred.
One of my good academic friends did work on the Woman Suffrage movement. He sort of ended up getting driven out of doing feminist research because he was male. I don’t fear that kind of reaction any longer, but I also always feel suspect–a feeling that comes from working in feminist movement as a man. I don’t always know how to tease these things apart. Maybe I’ll try a diary on it in the next few days…it’ll give me something to think about while I’m sorting files at the temp job tomorrow.
but feminism for me is not about women; it’s about gender and, unless I’m mistaken, you’ve got gender, right? 🙂
yes. I think it would be an excellent diary. Sometimes I feel that way about advocating for gay rights or talking about masculinity. But I think we have to keep talking across our socially constructed boundaries if we have any chance of tearing them down.
I think feminism is about gender, about relations of power and constructed categories. That’s not a universal notion, though. A broader understanding of feminism is that it’s about women. And it is. It’s about how the category “woman” is constructed. I think the problem is this: Which feminism?
Oy, this isn’t the place to get into that….
Some of the issues I’ve been thinking about over the last couple days have brought me back to those days in feminist organizing. Thinking back to the women who were my mentors, as well as to some of the less positive experiences….some of which were gendered, some of which were just people acting like people, i.e., being assholes.
I think I need to let some things percolate before I sit down to write that diary.
The irony about woman’s suffrage is that to gain the vote, women had to convince men to give it to them.
I think that since the rise of “gender studies” it has become much more acceptable for men to engage in those kinds of studies. At least, that has been my experience in courses on gender and history…
it is becoming an easier field for men to get into….somewhat. I think one of the amazing things feminist theory did was open up masculine/feminine, male/female, etc. as constructed. While the start was by looking at how “femaleness” was constructed–in relation to “maleness”–it soon became possible to discuss the construction of masculinity. Hell, now we’re talking about heterosexuality as an equally constructed category.
All of these fields are marginalized like hell, though.
Highly technical theoretical work on the meta-workings of our perceived reality, like the social constructions of gender, will always be on the margins of the disciplines. While it’s fascinating, it is really only accessible to those with the academy.
However, feminist insights into epistemological and methodological issues, in particular, into issues of power between the researcher and research subject, have become important in a variety of disciplines. Anthropology has thoroughly embraced feminism, and any sort of ethnographic work grapples with the issues raised by feminists.
Capital-eff “Feminism” may be marginalized in academia, but small-eff “feminisms” are taking root in some well-established traditions – and in some instances are really invogarating the debate.
We’ll have come a long way, methinks, when there is no longer a need for a department of women’s and gender studies because the disciplines will as a matter of course acknowledge (I’m not going to hold my breath on solving) the issues that surround gender (or race; or sexual orientation; or class; etc.) that arise as part of the investigative process.
HHG,
I just got a chance to read what you wrote on DKos today. Damn. It was beautiful. I only read the permanlink, not the comments. But your sentiments and argument were beautiful. I’m so grateful to you for doing that. Your wife and daughters are very very lucky.
I think you probably should leave the comments alone. Still lots of folks who don’t get it over there…
Off to write a reply to your diary below!
Stranger
It was frustrating, but I also got the opportunity to explain why I’m shifting my emphasis to this space to someone I enjoy talking with over there.
This has been a strange couple days.
I’m not sure how to explain it. I have had a lot of fun over at kDos the past several months. I was a lurker for a long time before posting, so I’ve seen most of the infamous wars everyone talks about. In each case, I was confident the brouhaha would blow over, and it usually pretty much did. This time feels different to me, and I felt it from the minute I read Kos’ post. I’m not going to change much re: my surfing choices except to follow the talented Kossack Women to wherever they go and read what they have to say on a regular basis. Otherwise, I agree with the folks who suggested this wasn’t exactly Kos’ smartest move in the past few months. He had plenty of opportunity to see this one coming…
I consider that high praise coming from you.
Do yourself a big favor, avoid the comments. Of the 500+ there are a few very good and very well thought out posts, but they are difficult to find amongst the personal attacks and comments from people who just plain missed the point.
of this quotation from Robin Morgan since this whole thing started on DKos (I think it was Morgan who said this…):
“I have seen the enemy, and he is my friend.”
Like others, I have accepted the simplest definition of feminism as equality and tried to live my life accordingly. Over the years, I have worked with and for feminist organizations and am proud to have some leading feminists as friends. And ya know, in all the years I have known them, the word feminism has rarely passed between us.
I find the internalization of rightwing frames on feminism manifesting itself over at kos, disturbing. (Somebody send in George Lakoff to deprogram them!)
And the feminist-baiting going on is unacceptable in more ways than I care to get into right now. But like everyone else, I am not sure what to do about it yet either.
I was too young to participate in the movement in the 1960’s, but it has been running through my head the last 48 or so hours that this is very much like when the feminist movement established itself because women felt alienated from the left. Do we really have to go through this again?
Yeah. I feel like quoting Elvis (Costello): What’s so funny about peace, love, and understanding?
Oh yes. At the sit-in at the Ladies Home Journal & the 1st March ever down 5th Ave, at the CR groups & at the (first & last) Ogle-In on Wall Street, one fine morning during rush hour, when a troop of us set out to show the stockbrokers what whistles & catcalls felt like.
Oops, showing my age. Should I say, “I was in diapers” ??
Oh well. me and Mother Courage.
I was also connected by friendship to one of the saddest radical splits of that day– when Newsreel– a collective dedicated to obtaining or making & distributing what was then referred to as ‘alternative news’– fractured forever because women, feminists, rebelled. The thing got shattered for good. It died quickly. Something which I regretted a lot at the time but was willing to write off as ‘collateral damage’, or whatever we called it then.
I missed the whole thing at dK yesterday, however. Posted hasty, thoughtless kneejerk support for Kos (oi vey!) this morning before I’d read or understood anything about what happened. Mea culpa.
Lorraine, I support you ‘n everyone else here. I’m still reading (about to tap into the Pie Fight File) I’m not sure yet whether I’ll stay at dK or not. Thre’s been a significant shift of tone downwards, in the last few while, as the numbers rocketed up & the schoolboys came to stake their claims on the turf.
Maybe yesterday, dK jumped the shark. Maybe not. What I value most about that place are the people, the level & range of interaction and the heterogeneity. I’ll be sad if that tanks and furious at how amused/elated/gratified by it the Republican opposition will be.
I haven’t figured out my position yet. But I respect yours– and I will support you, every way I can. You just keep going, girlfriend!
I have another personal hero to chat with now!
I actually used parts of Karla Jay’s “The Lavender Menace” (including the LHJ sit-in) in class this semester. This is so fucking cool.
yup. Wanna know the moment I personally loved most? I don’t know if it’s become the stuff of legend or been forgotten, but it’s the one I cherish. It came relatively early on, at the beginning of negotiations with the (male)editor. They were trying to appease and/or humor us. We were making our case and beginning to set out our demands. The sublime T Grace Atkinson narrowing her eyes remarked, “every time he smiles, we’ve made a mistake.”
heh.
Goes on because it is, in some ways, too easy.
This is because cultural insensitivity to the legitimate beefs of women makes it a safe form of expressing hostility or anger.
But also because it drives a response like few other forms of baiting will- this encourages feminist baiting for a whole host of reasons, from mysogyny to immature attempts to get the attention of a woman (analogous to kindergardeners pulling pigtails- note that it is not appropriate for grown ups to act like kindergardeners.)
However, the very broad range of ideas termed feminism incorporates several schools of thought that can faily be called systematic political idealogies that adress specific situations with generalized responses. These subsets of the feminist movement are often unfairly used to represent the whole movement- but their existance can not be denied.
I for one take umbrage at any rigid idealogy- to use the cliche I’m reality based. When confronted with any rigid idealogue in conversation my first inclination is to torment them on the thorns of their own intellectual rigidity; many good people share the same inclination.
Personally, I try my best not to do that especially when it might cause discomfort to innocent bystanders. But I think that there should be some understanding of the fact that not all hostile reactions to some iota of feminism (even if clumsily adressed to feminism in general) are unfounded.
No one here, even the most leftist among us, would feel compelled to defend any of the truly obscene excesses comitted in the name of “leftist” ideaology. However, the signals of mutal support- right or wrong- that are found in many discussions of feminist issues can be disconcerting to the uninitiated.
Most, if not all, of the posters in these threads here have made quite clear their rejection of the intolerant subvariants of the feminist movement. But often in such kindly and subtle ways that a reader might miss it and think that those objectionable points of view are shared by more than a few “feminists”.
It is also fair to ask that a movement which rightly prides itself on rational well intended discourse for the betterment of all humans (feminism) extend the same tolerance and reengaging attitude toward the idealogical or political flaws of fellow travellers outside the movement (i.e. Kos, who is no Stokeley Carmichael.)
Anyway, it is great to see these issues discussed at length.
Yup, precisely. That is what hit me between the eyes when the discussion in the very first pie-fight diary got ugly. Change a few nouns (replace “feminists” with “liberals,” or “dKos” with “America”), and a lot of it reads like bona fide Freeperville.
And I so very badly want to chalk up that observation to the ways in which, at a cultural level, public discourse has grown increasingly toxic, intolerant, and absolutist under the neo-con/Dominionist influence.
But then I recall how the women’s movement was treated by the androcentric left in the 1960s, and I realize this shit truly is misogyny, and it’s a great deal older than the Bush administration.
Sigh.
I have simply run out of Oys!, today. I’m all Oy!’ed out. This is the all-time record.
Oy! over at dKos right now:
Oy!
Meanwhile Oy! over here at Booman:
According to the United States National Institutes of Health (NIH), just over half of American women are overweight or obese. The findings of a 1998 study are that 25.7% of American women over 20 years of age are overweight and an additional 25% are obese. Romanian women in contrast are rarely overweight. They seem more concerned with their appearance. Romanians do not have a lot of the high-fat convenience foods prevalent in western countries. They tend to eat more whole foods, whole grain breads and in general lower-fat diets. Most Romanians cannot afford cars and must walk most places they go. Very attractive women are very common in countries of the former East Bloc.
Oy!
I’m running out of places I can read without having an Oy! overload. I have to stop reading for a while.
Pardon my French, people, but what the hell is going on? I feel like Rush Limbaugh must have taken complete control over the internets. It has to be a hoax. Doesn’t it?
Perhaps its a sign to hone the feminist ideology for something other than an echo chamber?
we are going to change the world just like before!
but political naivety comes knocking.
and this time we are not novices in the rules of engagement. We are now educated, informed, and articulate going in to this battle.
Naivete…yep – no doubt about it…somewhere we believed the left was finally listening and that we had an integral part of it…
Some things are different from the battles of the 1970’s and 1980’s and some haven’t changed.
Either way the veterans are here and will keep fighting the good fight.
and the former conservatives that are naive about this.
you cannot build a coalition this way.
And women’s issues are human rights issues, fundamental to all progress. All progress.
when the irony is that feminism is the bedrock of progressive politics.
Harsh words are about to be written by me. Sorry.
First, I am an ardent progressive and a committed feminist, and have been for many, many years.
Second, many of the objections to 1) the ad, 2) Kos’s response, and 3) the incredibly idiotic commentary elicited by both contain a lot of merit and expose some serious divisions that do need to be dealt with inside the Democratic, Progressive, Leftists, Humanist community…especially if we are really serious about uniting, fighting, and winning the cultural-political-economic war that has been raging for centuries…
But…third…that above quoted statement is simply, in my opinion, bassackwards.
Feminism, women’s issues, gender issues, and the problem of patriarchy are huge aspects of the progressive struggle…but they are not the bedrock of that struggle.
They are offshoots.
Like race, like religious persecution, like ethnic division and persecution, the subjugation of women arises out of a deeper, more fundamental root…
Class.
Class society gives rise to, perpetuates, and is perpetuated by the divisions that arise out of oppression based on any number of external physical characteristics that can be easily identified and used as tools to foment and extend internecine warfare between groups with otherwise natural affinities and natural alliances.
Read Engels.
When I read that same line, I interpreted it as feminism embodies the bedrock of progressive politics. Which is a level playing field, equality for all, and the point of your post (I think).
So while you’re disagreeing with that statement and how it is worded, it seems to me that you’re agreeing wholeheartedly with the broader point (which I realize you never said you weren’t doing).
Feminism is integral to progressive politics – no expression of radical, liberal or progressive politics can ever be complete or succeed without explicit recognition of feminism and its importance.
The same goes for all the other isms that I listed.
What is important is trying to put together a coherent framework within which to fit all those pieces, and to identify the keystone of the structure we fight against.
Feminism is an important, crucial component…but it is not the fundamental root.
I’m too exhausted to argue with you tonight (respectfully, of course) but I’m not a Marxist. I don’t think Marxism and feminism are inimical, I just think that while class is a huge component of all of this, gender comes first. It’s the binary that determines other categories, and if I wasn’t so tired, I’d say more. So maybe tomorrow, I can pick this up.
I am a Marxist.
Marxism and feminism are not at all inimical – they are natural allies of the closest kind.
Marxism and feminism, Marxism and anti-racism…and so on…are and should be inseparable.
gender comes first.
I strongly disagree. Humanity comes first.
It’s the binary that determines other categories
? What is that supposed to mean?
, and if I wasn’t so tired, I’d say more. So maybe tomorrow, I can pick this up.
Please do.
And while you’re thinking about this stuff, here’s some reading I would recommend.
Marx and Engels
Clara Zetkin
Eleanor Marx
Rosa Luxemburg
Alexandra Kollontai
Sylvia Pankhurst
Women and Marxism
not that gender is the most important issue, but rather that it’s the fundamental, primary division of the human species upon which all others are constructed (thus the binary–division into 2 classes). And therefore even if the organized women’s movement came later than other social movements, the issue of gender really isn’t secondary to any other.
And if I’ve got the meaning right, I think she’s correct in this, as a matter of history and anthropology. All human societies, however small, however simple, have gender roles (and usually the female gets to play a subordinate role dammit).
RedDan,
I have an academic back ground in intellectual history/cultural history. So I’ve read extensively. I’ve read a lot about Marxist feminism. I’ve read tons of post-structuralism/post-colonialism/post-modernism. I don’t think you and I are ideological enemies in any way, I just think that my way of looking at the world through the lenses I’ve chosen makes more sense to me, just as your lens makes the world clearer to you.
Gender (and by this I don’t mean women) is about perceived differences between the sexes and then how that power gets apportioned accordingly. More important for me, it’s not just about male/female. When you do a cultural analysis of how gender operates, you can see that the power relationships between groups in a culture (for example, in my area: Quattrocento Italy) you can see that Christianity coded Judaism as feminine, and the power dynamics played themselves out culturally that way. For example, Jews became associated with the body, were not considered spiritual, were assumed to be hypersexual, it was assumed Jewish men menstruated, Jews were accused of being baby-killers, being a threat to Christian women, were seen as conspiring to kill Christians and overthrow the government, were seen as not good citizens, and of course, were discriminated against economically.
I’m sure that you have a Marxist explanation for why Jews were excluded from Christian communities. I have my own set of working assumptions that help me explain the phenomenon.
I see similar things in modern culture. Even if we are not talking directly about men/women, I would argue that the confusion in this country over gender and privacy issues are huge–and that our invasion of Iraq, our treatment of its prisoners, etc, can be examined through the lens of gender.
Of course, there’s a Marxist explanation for what’s going on, too.
In our culture, I think gender, our notions of male and female, of the body, of privacy rights, of everything associated with how we consider ourselves to be human (and I ask the famous question: When you mark the box next to the “M” or “F,” do you mark it, or does it mark you?” is at the root of so much of what is going on. Certainly economics is a huge part of this. But for me, as a cultural historian, looking at the multi-faceted, fractured, webs of ideologies at work is also my attempt to find a space for resistance.
I should also tell you that I’ve written about Emma Goldman, and consider myself politically to be an anarchist. Her experience with Lenin has always been of interest to me.
Ugh. Not very cogent this morning.
when my head nearly explodes….your post reminded me of someone I work with and love here in Boston. One day in seminar, a colleague was presenting a paper on friendship networks in movements. This friend pipes in, “You need to check Lenin’s mistress’s memoir in _ section.” All of a sudden, the two of you connected in my mind….that would be a fun meeting in person 🙂
Clearly we have the basis of an excellent argument discussion here.
I would like to continue it very, very simply by asking a very basic question:
You wrote: you can see that Christianity coded Judaism as feminine, and the power dynamics played themselves out culturally that way. For example, Jews became associated with the body, were not considered spiritual, were assumed to be hypersexual, it was assumed Jewish men menstruated, Jews were accused of being baby-killers, being a threat to Christian women, were seen as conspiring to kill Christians and overthrow the government, were seen as not good citizens, and of course, were discriminated against economically.
All of which I accept as based on the historical record – and all of which I agree form the basis of a powerful set of observations.
Here’s my question: What was the impetus behind the use of femininity as the coding, and why was such “negative” (because at that time – indeed, as now – femininity was simultaneously weak and threatening, desirable and fearful, needed and rejected…) coding required?
Let me rephrase it, just to be clear: You state that Christianity (more clearly, Christian proselytizers and church leaders seeking to displace others and grow their church) used a tool to accomplish that end. I would add that the SAME tool was used against the pagan religions (hence the rise of “Witch” and all that ensued). But was the tool the impetus? Was the tool used the same as the reason it was used?
I submit that the tool used is certainly reflective of important underlying cultural and structural motivations and attitudes – hence my absolute agreement and support of feminism and the analysis of gender as a key part of the progressive movement and one of the key pillars of our struggle – BUT…I continue to be unconvinced of its role as prime mover.
When a baby is born (or more commonly now, when the ultrasound is done), the first question is : Is it a girl or a boy?
When a body washes up on a beach, the first question is: Was it a man or a woman?
I’m too tired to think of additional examples. However, there’s a good body of research that says the single piece of information that one person wants to know about another is what their respective genders are. And I’m not trying to differentiate here between sex and gender, which, for the record, I know are not identical. My point is to agree with Lorraine that questions of gender are extremely fundamental.
I have never said that gender or sex is not important to humans.
I do think that your examples are somewhat lacking, and would like to see a bit of backup.
I am trying to make the point that the problem of gender and the problem of class and the problem of race all relate back to fundamental societal stuctures that relate to hierarchy.
Hierarchical structures incorporate a wide variety of systems of which one is patriarchy.
Patriarchy is one of the more powerful and deeply rooted hierarchical structures, but it is not the only powerful one, nor is it, again in my opinion based on both my experience and my reading and research, the root.
Powerful women rising through patriarchical structures and leading them in ways that are essentially and fundamentally identical to powerful men would be one example.
Again, patriarchy is one powerful expression of hierarchy, but hierarchy takes many more forms than that alone, and there are hierarchies that do not arise from or exist within patriarchal structures – especially back in the historical record.
Nice use of Joan Scott. I can’t wait for the day when I’m teaching my own seminar and assign her to the undergrads, and watch them go from frustration at trying to make sense of it to the widening of the eyes as they finally do grasp the essence of her arguments.
Tonight my wife is out of town on a business trip. I have an 18 month old daughter, and she has brought an incredible amount of joy to our lives. (She is silly like me. A few hours ago, she was ROTFL as her dad did a terrible James Earl Jones impression of ‘Loook, I am your father…’.) While giving her a bath, I was thinking about what her life will be like in 20-30 years, and reminding myself of what my wife still has to put up with in today’s ‘enlightened age’ of so-called gender equality.
I won’t give all the details, as you all know the stories. Needless to say, the men at her place of employment talk the talk, but they don’t walk the walk. Promotions, key decisions, office politics – it all comes down to gender issues. While she knows she has it better than her mother did and better still than her grandmother, she also knows she will hit a ceiling of at least one or two levels lower than an equally talented male counterpart. And that’s just the start of what she deals with as a woman in today’s society.
My vow to my daughter is that she will have a better world to live in as she grows into the amazing adult I envision.
Bravo to you Lorraine for doing what you feel is right. To any and all of the women and men who are fighting for a better future for my daughter, bravo to you as well.
Cheers,
Stranger
Thank you. I knew that my anthropology and sociology degress would not get me any job per se, but when I went to college a liberal arts degree meant you could climb the ladder. When I went looking for jobs in the mid 80’s I found that as a woman I was locked out of the ladder climb. No matter what job I applied for, I was always relegated to secretary. Once I took a job as a secretary, I was always a secretary. Now I tell my daughter that she should never ever tell any perspective employer that she can type. I urge her to fields that do not require typing and never think that a BA will get her anything.
I’ve been too busy to post much on dKos lately (even lost my TU status), but I’ve been reading as much as possible. This last brouhaha was too much for me; it’s not the first time I’ve been dismayed by a lack of respect for women on the part of Kos and some other posters. Some of my very favorite posters – nyco and marisacat – left over previous incidents, and only rarely show up there now. I’m happy to see so many of my other favorite posters here.
I’m flabberghasted. Of all the “pie” diaries today the one that makes it to recommended is MCJoan’s diary on why she will stay. I just feel that we made no difference. Kos and the frat boys won. I was slammed pretty hard by women on that diary for gasp thinking that women should stick together.
I’m sorry…I haven’t even read the posts in this diary, but this is the first time I was really shook up. I even cried, which is way out of my normal reactions. I just couldn’t believe the justifications I was hearing for tolerating mysogyny. My favorite was “I didn’t take any women’s study classes, so he wasn’t talking about me”.
I am not a radical feminist, but I have have been rejected for several jobs because I was a woman and a mother. I have been dismissed because I “asked too many questions” and told I should not worry my pretty head about such matters.
back yet, not even to peek. So thanks for the heads up. I have the feeling that many of us, between bouts of rage, have shed a tear or two over this. It’s some sad shit…
In some ways it is such a shame that such a large community as KOS is no longer a safe environment for so many. It is also shocking that on a so called liberal site so many misogynists, sexists and just plain rude people have surfaced. There really is no excuse for this, and the site has mobilised its defenders (both men and yes sadly women) and to resist them, or expect even civil behaviour from them is just pure fantasy. Move on. This place seems a lot safer to express an opinion, and as has been brutally exposed over the last few days there is so much to be done.
Peace.
…others I respect and enjoy reading and learning from are abandoning Daily Kos.
Not that I think you didn’t have ample provocation. The discussions of matters unfortunately labeled “women’s issues” over the past few months have been filled with plenty of rancid behavior. I’ve made more than my share of comments about it.
Moreover, one of the best lessons I learned when feminists in 1969 started enlightening me is that women get tired of trying to explain what ought to be obvious to a thinking man. And that the leading role for men who are pro-feminist should be to persuade men who are not to change their minds (and their behavior).
So, the fact that many of you have left to establish yourselves in what you consider more friendly territory or set up a new blog of your own isn’t surprising to me. I wish you well. But I also wish you weren’t ONLY going to post your important material outside of Daily Kos. And I hope over time you will reconsider.
Having additional progressive blogs will certainly do the left no harm. I have tried since I discovered blogs nearly three years ago to read as many as possible, and I’ll certainly go where people I’ve come to respect have staked out their oratorical tents. But like everybody else I have to ration my time. So I have always gone first to Daily Kos because I can both read a vast amount of subject matter and reach more people with my own writing than anywhere else all at once. If I have more time, I cruise elsewhere. Hopefully, as I said, I’ll be able to find and engage in those elsewheres with some the posters who’ve departed, but that’s catch-as-catch-can even for me, and I read probably as widely as anyone. If you are posting elsewhere, but not cross-posting and not expressing yourself in others’ Daily Kos Diaries, thousands who might have been enlightened by what you have to say will miss it.
Again, I think I have a comprehensive understanding of what has driven you and so many others to depart Daily Kos. I’m pissed, too. But, while I am pissed by much of what is reported in the NYT, I’d be a fool not to write for them if they asked me.
Now, I’m just a lurker at dKos, not a poster, but I have to say I find your comparison to dKos and the NYTimes a little off.
You make a good point, but….
Part of what is supposed to be so great about blogging is the absence of gatekeepers. Obviously, this isn’t actually true, but it’s still more true than in the “print” or broadcast media. Leaving dKos hardly means the same thing as turning down an opportunity to write for a major newspaper.
Besides, dKos is also supposed to be more than just a media outlet. It’s a community and an organizing tool. Leaving your chosen community because it treats you as less than human is simply usually the healthy thing to do. And an organizing tool that makes it difficult for you to participate isn’t very useful.
I got to listen to Gloria Steinem speak once, and the best advice she gave that day was that we need to work on not just creating our own spaces, networks, and agendas, but work to incorporate them into the world around us as well. So, I really do hear you and I think that both of you are quite right.
But I also think that to everything there is a season, and there is a time when you need to say that enough is enough. There are lines you don’t cross. Kevin Drum did a good job of staying to this side of that line during the “women in op-ed” debate. Not that I didn’t get annoyed with him as well, but Kos should take a few pointers from Drum’s posts and actions. Which really, says it all, when you think about it. That Kos could really use lessons in dealing with feminist critique from Kevin Drum.
…with Daily Kos relates to the reach of their “circulation.”
I can’t and won’t defend Markos for his attitudes about “women’s issues”; in fact, I have excoriated him for them. But whatever else can be said, Markos has opened up his site – without censorship – to all comers. The limited amount of censoring has come from the rating community. So, despite his personal views that we both find abhorrent, he has not been a gatekeeper.
I’ve spent a great deal of time as both journalist and activist – often combining the two. I’ve found that working both inside and outside “establishment” organizations – even those with wretched records on some issues – is not only the most satisfying but the most effective. That’s why I am still a Democrat, and still a radical.
Now, that’s not completely true now is it?
He just recently felt it was necessary to edit the title of a diary because it mentioned wet pussies.
I don’t know enough about his normal policies regarding such things to have an opinion on whether he should have or not, but….
One can’t help but notice the irony of censoring the explicit title of a dairy that is meant to be a snarky response to the explicitly derogatory responses many women were getting to their complaints of sexism.
And even if the site was censorship free, he still would be a gatekeeper. It’s his site. He makes the rules, or at least some of them. He’s the one with permanent front page privileges. Not saying he shouldn’t or doesn’t have the right, I’m only saying that just because he isn’t as much of a gatekeeper doesn’t mean that he still isn’t one at all.
is: do the folks who “get it” (that is, “get” why gender analysis is an integral part of political analysis) stay to spread the word?
Kossacks have a running joke about trying to engage in conversations on the winger blogs. I’m not in any way suggesting a parallel, but to discover that Markos and many, many of his posters have the knee-jerk evil femininazi stereotype embedded in their consciousness is depressing beyond words. That strident, man-hatin’, tobacco chewin’ sour puss “feminist” is a Media Creation, for heaven’s sake!!! If a progressive blog that spills thousands and thousands of words criticizing the ineptness of the media falls prey to this, can you blame a lot of folks for calling Time Out? As I mentioned in a comment on Lorraine’s first version of this thread, maybe this will precipitate a bit of soul searching. In my biz, we’d call it a teachable opportunity. Or maybe not.
NB: Meteor Blades, great to see you here. I Love, Love your stuff. You write professionally, yes?
hello,
I came over here from dailykos because you all showed me another major website I wasn’t aware of.
That said, I’m hoping some feminists here start their
own website like this for feminist issues. Feminism
has been hammered, badly and now we have the “Bush women” who are busy undermining everything that enabled themselves to even have a career.
I wasn’t involved in the pie fight, my focus is online
activism on economic issues affecting the middle class.
But, I went back and read this kos post and realized
he honestly is that clueless and what not shocked
people left.
My point is I am not aware of NOW or any organization
or any feminist grassroots organization really
having a major online interactive presence and this
adventure made me put in my 2 cents that it’s time to
have one and strongly suggest the techie feminists
make one.
BTW: I care because women techies are rare and
were the first cannon fodder when offshore outsourcing
came into vogue. Women overall wages have not
come up to men’s and are first in line when an economic downturn occurs to get the shaft.
I am saddened by the last few days.
I have always considered myself a feminist even though I am a male. You all have every right to feel angered by the comments made by many men during the heated exchange. They were sexist and belittling.
I hope there is a way to find healing.
And obviously issues women have fought hard for over the years are being ignored by a new generation. This can not stand. I will do everything I am able to do to “educate” these ignorant males.
I have taken my relationship with women for granted. You are my equals and I was in shock to see that this feeling isn’t Universal among men that call themselves progressive. I knew our society had a long way to go, but did not expect this blatant sexism where I saw it. It makes me angry and sad.
I have a daughter that loves math and science. I was hoping she would live in a world where she could pursue those interests without having to deal with bullshit the female Professors I had in College, and still maintain close friendships with, had to.
Time for me to get fighting.
don’t give up. There are more and more resources for girls and women in math and science…I was one of those smart scientific girls…and I now have a Ph.D. in epidemiology. If you want resources and/or some individual advice/talk whatever, please email me at the email listed by my username. There are lots of great areas of science that need to be studied and girls need to be encouraged at least as much as boys…
I would be happy to try to mentor long-distance, if I can. Does she have any particular areas of interest?
Thank you for the offer.
I’m actually in the sciences myself. She is still quite young – 9 so I’m hoping that she does not have the difficult time many young girls have.
She loves math, astronomy and biology and has completed algebra homework for her baby-sitter when they were having difficulty. I’ve taken her while collecting insects for a large survey in Montana. So the exposure is there. I just have seen so many girls discouraged from these areas. That makes me not very happy to say the least.
Thanks again for the encouragement.
I have two boys, but as a non-linear but scientific thinker have taken decades to find my niche. Epidemiology is one of the most eclectic and diverse fields there is…which is why I love it. At any rate, if you want or need (or in the future) an additional mentor, even by way of a brief email…the offer stands.
I do believe that too many kids get bogged down in the BORING math and memorization of high school biology, chemistry and physics (male or female) that they lose sight of the wonder of it all.
Take care.
Lorraine, I posted a little note on the other diary before I saw a new thread had been established. But it’s 3:30 am, and I don’t have the energy to re-type!! Perhaps you can get that thread open and read it.
So glad to see you’re posting here! I’ve always admired your writing.
And a word about the “humorless feminists” who apparently just need to get laid: You know, I could never quite get it straight (harsh words coming…) would that be “frigid whore” or “whorish prude.”
It’s an amazing hat trick to be both, isn’t it?
Grrr.
I have not been online for about two weeks so I missed most of this brou-ha-ha (brou-ha-ha?) at Kos. I have still been reading there, but came over here to see how many people have migrated over. I am not ready to quit kos but will definitely keep my eyes on this site as well. I have posted a bit at kos, but not regularly.
These fights remind me a bit of the 60s when the women’s movement and the Black Panthers were trying to join forces…the Black Panthers basically said “go away girls, we have serious business here”. Then things got so factionalized everything fell apart.
posted this on the other thread before I realized there was a new diary on this subject.
Howdy. There were plenty of women supporting the Panthers who tired of the BS. I call it the “Why I Had My Baby for the Revolution” moment–though I can’t claim to have come up w/ that.
Same thing about the broader Civil Rights movement–lots of great women, but constantly having to fight: doing the work of the movement but then having to fetch coffee for the leaders. And they wondered why we were pissed.
I marvel at Dr. Dorothy Height, knowing just how much crap she had to put up w/ to have and maintain a seat at the table when she was fighting just as hard as the others.
…I wasn’t there but I’ve read/met/talked to women who were. It seemed to be an exciting but exhausting time, and by no means easy.
Anyway, there are doubled burdens to be a woman of color and feminist and you often feel like you’re forced to pick sides–crazy when life just doesn’t afford you that opportunity, even if you could.
here, here! I wasn’t there except by proxy…I was young in the 60s, but growing up in Ann Arbor and being in a politically aware family, it was hard to miss.
But, it is clear that while there is a huge amount of overlap in the issues, women’s issues often got put on the back burner during the Civil Rights Era.
I missed most of the pie fight stuff because I am up to my eyeballs in several different kinds of work that all needs to be done yesterday.
I have often found myself wondering: if kos got everything he is working for, what would the political world look like? And I have concluded that for the things I feel are important, most of the big work would still need to be done.
Democrats winning is a long way from sustainable, just, peaceful culture.
I don’t have time right now to respond to all the wonderful stuff in this thread. I just want to say, good work everyone, and I’ll be seeing you more in a few days when I get a little more time.
Here was the interchange:
Thank you, kos (none / 1)
The points that you made are very helpful in judging you favorably. They reflect my view that your snapping was no different than what you usually do, only it came across as being at a broad swath of readers.
OTOH, electoral politics is bound up with standing for something. The most important thing that Democrats can stand for is human liberty and dignity in these times. This certainly includes the liberty and dignity of women and all minorities. If Democrats took issues that have been ghettoized as identity politics and special interests and framed them as issues of fairness and community, we would get many more of the traditional Democratic women and minority voters. If we ran strong civil liberties candidates, we could say “Whoever is for America, to me!” and appeal to the common interest.
“If I am not for myself, who will be for me? If I am only for myself, who am I? And if not now, when?” (Hillel was a liberal)
by 4jkb4ia on Wed Jun 8th, 2005 at 00:38:18 PDT
[ Reply to This ]
* [new] Well (4.00 / 6)
only it came across as being at a broad swath of readers
It didn’t just “come across” that way, it WAS unintentionally directed at a broad swath of readers. That was my fuckup, and I apologized for that. I caught hell for that and I deserved it. I’m cool with that.
But I won’t back down because a vocal segment of the community demands action on any particular issue I disagree with. Whether that means John Kerry, Ohio fraud, or the Pie ad. We’ve had these fights before, and we will in the future.
I’m confident we’ll survive this just like the previous incidents because this site, quite frankly, is larger than me, any bloc of posters, or that stupid pie ad.
by kos on Wed Jun 8th, 2005 at 01:04:09 PDT
[ Parent | Reply to This |
kos has never responded to any of my comments before. I think the username may have something to do with it 🙂
kos said in his post that he cannot be everything to everybody; he will continue posting on “electoral politics, netroots, and Iraq” and anyone interested in anything else can post their own diary. This is evidently typical kos behavior. This incident has pushed me farther away from thinking that Kos is the “center of left Blogistan”, because kos does not want it to be. TPMCafe may start taking over the role.
You finally did it. You brought me over here. I really, really will get a yahoo email so SusanHu can email me torture stuff. I feel that even if I decried Markos to the seventh circle of hell, it would not mean anything for solidarity with women in my everyday life, which, frankly, sucks. It would mean solidarity with three women in particular.
Kos has a rude awakening in store for him: his portal will not survive without progressive women, as we comprise the base.
Duh.
He’s equally as misogynistic as was SNCC’s Carmichael in 1964:
“In 1967 and 1968, unaware of and unknown to NOW or the state commissions, younger women began forming their own movement. Here too, the groundwork had been laid some years before. The different social action projects of recent years had attracted many women, who were quickly shunted into traditional roles and faced with the self-evident contradiction of working in a “freedom movement but not being very free. Nor did their male colleagues brook any dissent: They followed the example of Stokeley Carmichael, who cut off all discussion of the issue at a 1964 SNCC conference by saying, “The only position for women in SNCC is prone.”
http://www.jofreeman.com/feminism/happening.htm
Bullshit.
In the latest poll, kos’s site was about 2/3rds male. The progressive base may be largely female, but the partisan Democrat base is not so much so, and kos is one of them and appeals to them. Some partisan Democrats may be attracted to kos because they are sick of the Republicans calling them “feminine”.
Kos does not control the real world where women who are inspired by something composed by a poster on his site can get as deeply involved in politics as they want. I know that kos would be far more encouraged by my writing better diaries and comments, which actually involve work and thought, than my husband who does not want me to do anything partisan because of his security clearance.
Lorraine,
What a marvelous analysis of what is and continues to be the right wing movement toward a more male dominated totalitarian state. I grew up in such an environment, with a man who fought in WWII against the Japanese, but who believed Hitler was the savior of the white race. When he found out my mother was part native american, our lives became hell on earth. As the oldest I was subjected to horrendous abuses of sexual, physical, emotional and psychological torture that I found could be treated with alcohol and drugs. I relied on what I learned in that family structure to formulate relationships in which I held all the power. It was not until I was hit with a stroke at the age of 33, that Great Spirit awoke within me the ability to see that how I lived my life was not only destructive to myself, but destructive in all my relationships with other people, especially women. I practice a spiritual path that is matriarchial in nature, my wife is a witch, for there is no other practical word to describe her spirituality. The Goddess and the Great Spirit are the Combined energies of all that is good and worthwhile in our lives. I have no experience in women studies, gender relations, or feminism as a political way of life. What I have is the respect that I have developed for the wonder of womanhood, the life bringers of our world. The sensibilty that women bring to the world, the nurturing and patience that they provide in a very intolerant and demanding world. My wife has shown me that strength does not equate to dominance of the other. Strength comes from knowing who you are, where you are going and why you are going there. I have no doubt that the gender wars over at Dkos will culiminate in the weaking of Dkos as a voice of reason in an otherwise unreasonable world. My culture holds these four beliefs.
I recognize that there is a long hard struggle to overcome the reversal of more than 30 yrs of forward progress, yet they “the reichwing” have not defiled every movement forward in those 30 yrs. I see a long and difficult road ahead, but there is hope and there are people such as yourself and others who will never give up for a society that values all of its members. I see people like Bush, Cheney, Brownback (KS), Frist, Dobson, Falwell, Robertson, Perkins and their ilk as Fascists who want only to control the minds and bodies of all human beings for their own personal gain. These people are the save the fetus, throw away the child, mental midgets who will be stopped and when it is proved that they are culpable in facilitating crimes against humanity, they will be punished, even if it is not in a court of law on this plane of existence. Thank you for your outstanding discourse on gender and its basis of power inequality. You bring a ray of hope and enlightenment to my own hope that soon, very soon, the reichwing will become as obsolete as the outhouse from which they sprang to life.