That would be me. That’s right I’m one of those women, those scary bra-burning feminists. I have no sense of humor. I’m a prude. I’m probably even shrill and hysterical and don’t know it.
You want me to stop? You want me to be a fun feminist? Someone you can take to parties and not have to keep one eye on to be sure I don’t set fire to an undergarment? It’s easy.
How To Change A Joyless Feminist Into A Joyful One
- Stop using anti-woman language. If the worst thing you can think of to call another human being is a slang word for female genitalia, I’ve got a problem. But it’s not as big as the one you have.
- Stop calling womens’ issues special interests. Reproductive rights and women’s issues only affect women and their children. One way or another they affect you, unless you are an alien from Alpha Centauri in disguise. No one is above this fray.
- Commit to equality now. Take it off the back burner.
- Speak up when you see or hear sexist stuff. Especially if you’re a man, because God knows they aren’t anywhere near as likely to listen to me.
- Stop buying into put downs of feminism based on style. Stop telling us you’ll listen if we’ll just be nice. Seriously, your turn. Step up.
- Make some room in that Big Tent of yours that’s not out on the fringes. Closer to the center would be nice. A spot on the dais would be really swell, come to think of it.
- Repeat after me, women are at least half the voting pool. They are real voters, and their opinions and needs matter. Well, only if you need them to win, I suppose.
- Resolve, now and forever after, not to treat women’s issues like the extra person in the troika, the one who gets tossed out if the slavering wolves get too close. Yes, we’ve noticed. And yes, we’re mad about it.
- Understand that the correct reply to ‘that was offensive’ is not ‘you have no sense of humor’. Feminists will start laughing at sexist crap when it starts being funny. Which is about when people of color will start laughing about racist stuff.
- Stop telling us there’s more important stuff and you’ll get to us. Really, pull the other one, it’s got bells on. This is important stuff.
- Don’t tell me I have it better than women in Somewhereelseistan, and expect me to be quiet. I know it could be worse. Don’t you see it could be better?
- Stop assuming I’m a man hating ball-busting bitch. I’m not. And I have references. I’m a sexist-despising political activist. There’s a difference.
- Don’t mistake passion and commitment with shrillness. My voice is deeper than some men’s, and having had a drill instructor father, it’s probably louder.
- Embrace and empower women. Seriously, double your ranks overnight. Isn’t that worth maybe getting girl cooties all over your agenda?
- Equal pay, equal representation, equal rights under the law. How hard is that?
Great Post, and so glad to see you jumping right in here. Really, very well stated. I like your style.
We sure are glad you came by to share with us.
Thanks. I had this boiling around in my head ever since the imfamous Pie Fight elsewhere and just had to write it down. And I’m, sadly, fairly certain it wouldn’t be heard over there.
saddly there is not much listening going on at our neighbors place. We are all ears here.
this is EAR-ily true.
Thanks, saoba. Your fifteen eloquent points all sound pretty reasonable to me – in fact I should think they would be pretty uncontroversial round these parts. A pity that they may not be acceptable at some other places…
I particularly like the contrasting images of your number 12, plus the reference to the drill instructor father.
The pie debate and particularly your 15 points remind me of what many women I knew were saying in the 70s and early 80s to male partners, to each other, and in the various progressive political groups where they were active. I thought (or perhaps I hoped) that these sorts of principles were not a major issue within the left any more: that they were common ground.
Looking back, I can see that I’ve made this false assumption before: I can recall being surprised at the number of ‘leftwing’ men within our Labor Party left caucus in the mid-80s arguing against police powers to deal with domestic violence on the grounds that men’s civil liberties would be infringed!
Women’s issues are people’s issues are left/liberal issues – or should be!
Oh, and welcome to you and others who have just splashed into the frog pond.
Well we are in this together since I’m within 6 months of 50 and just as fed up.
Thank you for so eloquently summarzing all the things I want to stand up and say.
I spent 15 minutes ‘over there’ this morning and left. They are still not listening and it’s still a joke to them, they got over it because they didn’t care. Oh well, they made the parting easier than I thought.
“They” said Ms. magazine was a waste of time…yeah right. “They” think that the other site is the be all and end all…yeah right. “They” think we have been silenced…yeah right.
“Living well is the best revenge” – so here’s a morning cheer with my coffee to Booman and living well.
I agree–I did my 15 minutes over there (but I came here first!), and far too many people still don’t get it. The responses to mcjoan’s “Why I’m staying” diary started out deferential (which felt condescending anyway), then quickly degenerated into more talk specifically about the ad and ridiculous tangents comparing it to Bud Light ads. I don’t think I’ll go there tomorrow at all.
The ad is tangential, it’s about respect. Lots of Daily Kossacks seem not to want to understand that, including Markos. I’m really disappointed that so little introspection has happened over there, but I feel as if I’ve shed some baggage now.
I’m a straight man, and I can never really understand what it’s like to live under bigotry except in some trivial ways. But I realize my fits and starts of volunteerism and activity over the last twenty years have actually had a theme overall: I want equal treatment for everyone, especially those two groups.
For me, it’s even more complicated. I simply can’t understand sexism, or how anyone can think “women’s issues” aren’t important. Women are, after all, over half the population. I’d say that alone makes “women’s issues” one of the most important issues possible, never mind how closely linked they are to pretty much every other issue!
Come to think of it, we saw the precursors of this over at DK back during that blow-up about the Harvard asshole who claimed that women were inherently unsuitable for academic positions…
Anyway, even though I don’t know what it’s like to live under bigotry (being straight white male and all), I also don’t get why anyone would be capable of bigotry. I have no problem with women in the workplace – heck, I wish there were more in my field (Computer Science), as the ones I know do good work, and it might help club some sense into some of the more Neanderthal-like males in it. But I also don’t think they’re inherently superior. To me, of course, they are “the other”, but that’s my point of view – I’m my own norm and reference point.
I like Ghostdancer’s tribal description ‘We are Human Beings’. That’s it.
I agree and would like to add that:
I’ll just have to speak for myself, 1 in 50,000 users over on dK that women’s issues are <extremely> important to me.
We’ve seen the sneak attack on abortions such as the Laci Peterson bill defining life and about the nefarious activities tied to CHIP and other welfare programs. I understand that the “debasing” of culture as a concern and maybe a part of that whole discussion that is merited. It usually is.
And trollishly, we’ve (well, maybe just me) seen other women who do such offensive things, perhaps worse (Mardi Gras?) in public venues, willingly and often, bubblingly to gain people’s attention. So who is to blame? Everyone? I hate to sound conservative but is there a measure of “personal responsibility”.
I mean, has Madison Ave. let us define ourselves by itself? Both sexes? I guess they do spend billions on R&D(&I), I=implementation. If so, what to do to change it?
I’m not defending what Kos did or say, I would hope I would try not to run the ad as I think that it’s not perhaps the best on a “progressive” blog. I think he could have been more gracious, but hey, I’m not under a certain microscope.
I also think part of the Summers thing was that some of us were trying to fight against that utter *** but that we didn’t feel very supported by our (better?) halves. So the voices you may have heard then were probably echoed loudly in the pie fight…
Anyways, my main point, mebbe should have diaried…
I hope that some people will at least X-post to dk. Some here are on my subscribe and keep me updated on things that I’d ordinarily miss.
I think part of it is Kos’ personal ethos.
He’s a young guy from two very patriarchal cultures: Greek and Latino. And furthermore, he’s not white.
He’s an acculturated white male. I mean, to take the all of this as a piece, he’s not willing to bend or break on these issues. He doesn’t want or care to understand, because it’s about him and his comfort zone.
I also wondered why I never got posted to the recommended list or why Armando (the Minister of Tact, said one woman at another blog) decided to pick on me one afternoon for absolutely no reason–except that he probably wanted to play Stanley Crouch for a few hot seconds. Or that I suddenly didn’t feel like contributing any more diaries after a while.
I’d also like to say too that I find it pretty distressing that a lot of young American males–no matter what color or culture–are propagandized negatively about feminism. There is a big difference between that and being educated and understanding what is at stake and walking the talk about what you understand.
This afternoon I was also thinking how I find it highly distressing about how certain black males act towards black women these days. I hate the fact that some black women still raise their daughters and spoil their sons. I mean, I like reading Joan Morgan’s critiques about hip-hop culture. Her work is more geared towards saving young black women from making fewer mistakes in this environment, but I wonder how many other black males are conscious of her and of other black cultural writers and want to change some shit.
Anyway, just where I am at tonight…
It’s easy for a lot of those MEN to say, “it’s not sexist … I don’t see that it’s sexist” and then tell us we just shouldn’t bother our pretty little heads about that, “DEARY”.
Yep, slaveowners rarely thought that owning slaves was wrong.
I won’t go back, so I haven’t seen any of the diaries since Kos’s spiteful response. Unless I hear of a real apology, I won’t ever go back.
Yeah, I remember when Kos was asking for new weekend posters. He made the comment that he wouldn’t try and get women on just to have women on. Then, as usual, it was all men. But he based it all on merit!
No, Kos’s site has become more and more sexist, and when Kos lets that keep going, it’s only going to get worse.
Kos has been exposed for the chauvinist he is.
Luckily, there are many other ways for us to support our causes without his site.
I got an apology from one Manix on Kos on this thread [search on emmeke]which is a pretty nasty one. Only this wasn’t the apology you’d expect. The general topic had gotten so heated (and he so twisted in his underpants nevermind his cranium) that he actually threatened to come over and punch me. Someone else called him on it while I was crafting my retort, so he was apologizing for that.
And yet he remained adamantly non-introspective, and completely insensitive.
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I am not sure whether to agree or disagree with all the points you mentioned in an abundant manner.
I would like to keep it short —
Men and women should be a perfect match, it doesn’t always work out that way, but with respect for each other, it should at least be fun trying to make it work.
Upbringing, parents and family, school, friends, church, army and employer all have a major influence to our behavior. The media, films, Hollywood, commercials, radio and TV have are an outside power on this matter and difficult to control. The road ahead will still be difficult, should not stop activism until utopic goal is reached. Should at least be near perfect, before settling down and enjoy culture, nature, hobby and just close friends.
What transpired at dKos is inexcusable, inexplicable and sad because of the tremendous effort by so many to make the kossack community the political power base it had become. Perhaps that is were in society, the shortcoming lies, as soon as an asset becomes interesting there follows a power grab. Soon those persons will find out they are holding an empty bag, the treasure has gone.
Welcome and I am looking forward to your contribution here at the BooTrib community, aka the best dKos had to offer.
Oui aka @dKos as creve coeur and new creve coeur
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
I want to second Oui’s point that you are in a different enviroment here. I also say go ahead and say what ever you want and feel you need to say. But Oui is absolutely right. The community is different herem, and I suspect much more like what you want in a culture than alot of the stuff that goes on on kos. I don’t entirely know why it is that way, but I assure you, it is. Go read the diary by Ghostdancer’s Way on the rec list and you’ll see what I mean.
The gender issues on kos are distressing, but there is a good diary and discussion of them by mcjoan at the top of the rec list on kos at the moment. I know things will be tense there for awhile, but there are some strong clear voices, and I have hope things will be better.
But those kinds of conversations have not been necessary here.
Thats just the way it is.
oh yeah… and welcome to you and to everyone who is new to BooMan Tribune!
I expected it to be a longer weaning period than it has been. I often stated on Kos that I didn’t understand where all the hate and anger comes from. I chose to assume it was all because we were in the midst of Bushland just by being there, that it all was brought to the fore simply by signing in. Today I experienced something quite different.
Spending time on Booman I’m so much calmer and more at peace. I feel invigorated in this atmsphere, the potential for growth and accomplishing things is at our fingertips. I feel settled. When I went to check in on Kos just now I got tense, I felt the rage and distrust creeping in. I realized I was always on edge there, always looking over my shoulder for the next attack against women, our rights because we were seen as spoilers.
I don’t think chiding those that have chosen to stay serves any purpose. I also think there are some remarkable people at Kos, people I respect and admire. I also don’t want to live one more moment in a toxic environment especially one of my own making. I feel cleansed somehow and full of a certain hope that had been stripped away.
I have been a proud feminists for 40 years. The movement has changed and grown, it has looked at the msitakes of the past and blossomed with new energy. It has stepped into the new millenium. I am so grateful to be here where women will thrive along with the men who do ‘get it’. It feels like home.
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I feel the buoyancy of a group of talented persons, which will give the BooManTrib [BMT] that extra boost of a turbo injection. It could just be the difference to encompass the community and provide sufficient growth to be self-supporting very soon.
Thanks for wandering over here, but no need to refer to oneself as refugee, see my new bottom line. It’s more comparing the bustle in a metropolis with American country life. For pleisure I prefer the latter.
Oui aka @dKos as creve coeur and new creve coeur
WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooTrib aka lost treasure of dKos
“Women are in so many ways superior, possess properties and possibilities men can only dream of”
I’m looking forward to contributing to the discussion here. I’ve had a creeping feeling for months now that issues of gender and sexuality were not properly addressed at dKos.
With that out of the way, I’d like to ask about the particular choice of wording for the statement quoted above. Where exactly are you coming from with that, and why do you feel it is effective to include such a statement?
In in the camp of people (men) who have been around very liberal and feminist thought for many years. I have — for the most part — mostly been a passive observer of the process.
But I have become very frustrated at the impoverished sense of “framing” (to use the word of the year… or are we already over that?) that just about everyone in involved in the issue seems to have. I hate to pick on this comment… but… well, I’d like to pick on it. I’d like to explore some of its connotations, and the conceptual framework beneath it. I hope this is the kind of place where we can indulge in those explorations.
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At my age, need to be specific about the blessings of a woman? Brings back memories of my teener years, searching for answers with an inquisitive mind. Exploration is most likely the best suggestion and advice I can give. LOL
Or perhaps you are interested why I personally made such a statement?
I have never been part of any major discussion on feminism or rights movement. That fight was settled in Western Europe decades ago. Although still not perfect, I do have a sense it’s moving forward and not backward.
Background of my remark, I would think my own personality. What else could I say, there is no particular book or person I could use as reference. Hope this satisfies your curiosity. My partner is always the better half. See also the diaries of ghostdancers way.
Oui aka @dKos as creve coeur and new creve coeur
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Hello, Oiu. Thanks for the “ghostdancers way” link. We have a very complex sociological phenomenon on our hands, don’t we?
Regarding my previous post: Oh, I’m definitely aware of (and thankful for) the many superiorities.
I’m interested in the particular rhetorical device used in that sentence, and the extent to which it fosters an unnecessarily confrontational gender-based identity.
Gender is a deep topic.
Oh, cripes, I can’t spell. (And if you think I mangle French vowels badly in type, you should hear how I pronounce them!)
“Women are in so many ways superior, possess properties and possibilities men can only dream of”
Oui, I am completely on board with everything you say, except for that one thing. I don’t think I am, nor do I want to be, superior; and as much as I think being a man doesn’t make you innately superior, neither do I think that being a woman makes you superior. Actually, having just written that word three times in one sentence is making me a little squeamish. Equal is plenty good enough for me!
Babaloo,
Appreciate your humbleness, but women are superior, if only in the fact of killing and war. Look at the wars, look at the leaders. Women have their preferred ways to get what they want. Thank GOD for their methods of persuasion. Female methods beat the hell out of beating the hell out of something, or killing it. Love for one sets the average female above the average male, especially here in America.
One only needs to go out in public, and observe, to see the superiority of the female gender. Their are exceptions, but at times I am embarrassed to be of the male gender. The male’s methods often immature, revengeful, even mean-spirited. Testosterone does have it’s faults. A hunting season on men, would straighten them up, to some degree.
The only thing worse is a WHITE male(look at history, especially in America). Frightening even worse; a religious white male(look at history, especially in America). EtJ
I think the only reason why women have not been as noted in war/killing as men is that women haven’t had the political power for the most part.
I was listening to an early morning talk show Sunday (5am), and the guest was a guy who’s written a book speculating what might have happened if Bobby Kennedy had lived and won the 1968 presidential election. According to the author (I wish I could remember his name; I need to keep a notepad by my bed for random scribblings like that), Anwar Sadat actually had a plan for peace between Egypt and Israel in 1968-69, but Golde Meir rejected it because it would have entailed Israel giving back 70% of the territory captured in the 1967 war, and Nixon & Co. backed Israel. So Egypt took the hard line, and we had to wait until the Camp David Accords to see a glimmer of peace in the Middle East.
I’d hate to imagine someone like Leona Helmsley as a head of state…
Easy: John Bolton twin/seperated at birth as head of state.
Indeed.
Boudicca anyone? Now to find a few thousand more female examples to balance the scales … đŸ™‚
Adam, in regards to: “Women are in so many ways superior, possess properties and possibilities men can only dream of” Without giving this much thought, as a whole women are quite superior, when it comes to love and responsibility. Without women, this World would not be worth living on. Without Women, this World would have probably been leveled many many centuries ago. Are you stirring the pot, or too busy beating your chest, to note the obvious.
“Are you stirring the pot, “
I suppose so. But hopefully in a constructive way. I think gender is an extremely important issue. The fact that Markos made such a ham-handed blunder should be a catalyst for numerous discussions.
I’m proposing that we need to stir the pot quite a bit in order to get at the source of his mistake, and to forge a new set of rhetoric and ideology that can move us forward.
“…or too busy beating your chest, to note the obvious.”
Speaking of underlying conceptual framework… You are an interesting specimen.
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you think of me as a bug under a Zeiss Ikon microscope!
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Becoming a bit puzzling. Just making an observation no one has denied, from my own experience at home and on the job. A woman has a better capacity in organizing multiple tasks, complexity and getting the job done on time. Men often prefer the serial handling of one task after another, often will not accept advice.
I felt it necessary under the present circumstances of a lot of hurt, to accentuate the positive advantages in doing certain jobs. Could be I have a bit more patience with a woman than a man, or a woman is more receptive in communicating an advice. It could be just personal, we are all created very different and yet equal. I get it now. Undoubtedly someone would have written a paper on this topic.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
If I may be so bold: please read the line with a German accent.
On “specimen”: some of the “mad scientist” connotations were intentional (in addition to a dash of snark). I’m a graduate student who has more than a passing interest in linguistics, cognition, anthropology, and scads of other fields that study the human mind.
My point to EtJ was that I think he(?) completely missed my point, and made that apparent by offering an extremely rich statement chock full of bias in reaction to a relatively small amount of stimulus from me.
I wish I had more time to explain myself more fully… but due to circumstances, I’ll probably have to hold off on writing my treatise for at least a few days.
I have so many anecdotes I’d like to provide for your interpretation.
I’d really like to get at what Markos meant by the “sanctimonious women’s studies set”. How important is that task? Nowhere near as important at continuing to fight for equality, fairness, and respect. But nevertheless, I still think it’s worth looking at — particularly in light of the recent tension.
Regarding the pie ad: It would be my preference not to affiliate dKos with an ad like that. (And luckily due to the fact that I donated a little money to Kos a couple of years ago to help with his first hardware upgrade, I was granted the ability to turn off ads.) I agree that it is at odds with his and our general message.
The resulting chaos was fascinating to watch… Entertaining almost. Watching scores of people push each others’ hot buttons. But when the dust settles, we need to figure out which buttons are worth keeping, which buttons are worth pressing, and which perceived buttons should melt away after we refactor our respective, collective conceptual frameworks.
The ideals of feminism are important. But I have plenty of personal experience with “feminism” operating more like a brand or a sports team than an ideology. In the context of the pie debacle, I can understand that emotions run hot and we may need some simple feel-good, intentionally over-simplistic rallying around the word. I’m anxious for what must follow.
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Most likely my thought as I was writing down these points, the beauty of a woman is carrying new life.
Basically …
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under 2. is about talents
under 4. is about rights.
Pax. It’s easier to write than explain afterwards.
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
I am a woman, and I have to take exception to that remark. I find it as distressing as the male presumption of superiority. That there are core differences between men and women and to the way they express in the world, I will agree. But, this notion of gender superiority gets us nowhere. Simply put the shoe on the other foot, and think of how it makes you feel when men say they are “superior.” For whatever reason we exist as two sexes on this planet, and we are interdependant for a host of reasons beyond reproduction. Without men, we’d be extinct. We’d also be missing the contributions of people like DaVinci, Einstein, Hawking… I could go on. I can embrace of the wonder of my womanhood, without diminishing that of men.
Thank you!
I will now branch off in a random direction …
Every time you say “Men are superior,” you loose a number of potentially interested women, who could have contributed. (A silly example: imagine how much more fun RPG/wargames cons could be if publishers would ease up the “Chainmail Bikinis” on book covers.)
Every time you say “Women are superior,” you loose a number of men, mostly the “shy and sensitive” ones.
I’m sure that Oui meant well, but what tweaks me about statements like this is that they often feel like a cop-out. All the things that woman are supposedly better at than men — empathy, nuturing, community, etc — are things that men almost certainly could be just as good at if we made the effort and if society (women and fellow men) supported us in those things.
I can’t do anything that directly involves certain specific physical attributes generally limited to women. Beyond those things, there’s nothing a woman can do that I can’t.
well, me too. I am gong to be anothr year older next month and I am concerned about my healthcare when I retire..or am I going to have to work part-time to just have it. Is my Soc. Security still going to be enough to live on.. is my 401K going to go bust. I have many issues like many others [both genders] that need to be discussed.
Women are in so many ways superior, possess properties and possibilities men can only dream of
I respectfully disagree.
I’m going to invoke, in a clumsy and unsophisticated way, Judith Butler: ‘Women,’ as such, don’t exist, any more than men do. I’m not saying they don’t physically exist, but in the sense that people actually understand their coming in contact with each other, women and men are social constructs. There’s a degree of freedom in being able to construct your own gender, but generally speaking, most people are forced into terrible lives because of these constructs.
It’s bad for men; it’s worse for women.
This just brought to mind a quote from Simone De Beauvoir, I have not thought of her in years!
“One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman”
“Woman.” What does it bring to mind? Marilyn Monrone, Pie Ad girls, fashion models, 36-24-36, cat whistle, using hands to outline an hourglass shape.
There ain’t nothing like a dame!
There is nothin’ you can name
That is anythin’ like a dame!
There are no books like a dame,
And nothin’ looks like a dame.
There are no drinks like a dame,
And nothin’ thinks like a dame,
Nothin’ acts like a dame,
Or attracts like a dame.
There ain’t a thing that’s wrong with any man here
That can’t be cured by pullin’ him near
A girly, womanly, female, feminine dame!
–lyrics from the musical “South Pacific”
Not so idiotic Karl, I think. But I believe almost everything is a construct anyway. When Matrix came out, the construct conceit the story was based on never seems like fiction to me – simply The Way it is. I would love to think of humans in terms of character traits for which they had responsibility and freedom of choice and not gender. However, if I were forced to choose the suprior gender, it would be the female:)
I appreciate the Matrix reference đŸ™‚ Sometimes I feel a little guilty making pop culture references for fear that I’m falling into some marketer’s carefully constructed trap. But there’s no denying that that movie had an element of brilliance. (Too bad they blew it with the second two.)
I had the chance to travel to Asia in January for a few weeks… there’s nothing like travel to give you an appreciation for the magnitude of the constructs that govern your life “back home”. I think I’m still reeling from that most recent trip… I was in particular paying attention to gender issues while I was there.
It wasn’t the differences that struck me, but the similarities. I got to wondering whether they were similarities because of the instantaneity of modern cultural transmission… or whether it was because there are some aspects of the human experience that are extremely stable.
I’ve been self-studying Eastern philosophy for the last year or so. I started with Zen, since that is most familiar – the west seems to have appropriated it. But it was Taoism that really resonated with me. Actually my interest started way back in college with the Casteneda books.
PS – Bush’s solipsistic worldview infuriates me!
# Women are in so many ways superior, possess properties and possibilities men can only dream of
# Equality is self-evident and needs no highlighting
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Superior or equal… which is it, I’m confused?
I absolutely agree with you. I went and read and left to come here. I saw so much butt biting there and I really am afraid I am not staying with them to help in their fight to win back congress and the WH. I was there cuz I felt an avenue at last that allowed me to rant and give my own little bit of knowledge ont things so someone might see things in a different light. I sure did learn on many topics I thought I had all figured out…
I am going to be 60 next month. I have learned a lot in my lifetime. I would love to share my experiences with anyone who will let me give to them…for I have grown into a mature woman that has many views on many things.
I saw so many ppl at the kos with very high education/intelect and some that with that qualification that lacked common sense to accompany any of that book learning. Such a waste of intellengence.
Thank you for booman…I may have just found my next…I search the internet for many things…and that has enlightened me to many things out in the world about many things including ppl.
I don’t have much to add to this excellent list. But maybe:
And I’ve been wanting to post these for the past few days:
“Feminism is the radical notion that women are people.” — Cheris Kramarae and Paula Treichler
And my very favorite blonde joke:
Q. Why are blonde jokes so short?
A. So men can understand them.
I prefer viola jokes, they’re not gender specific.
Q. How do you teach a violist up bow staccato?
A. Write a whole note for their part and then write “Solo” over it.
I prefer viola jokes, they’re not gender specific.
::double take::
How could you tell that I’m a violist? Can’t we tell some first violinist jokes instead for a change? Or maybe some jokes about cellists?
Your point is well taken, but the blonde joke makes its point so lightly.
Next thing you know you’re saying the woodwinds should have their own schools! đŸ™‚
“Never look at the trombones, it only encourages them.” – Richard Strauss
A little known codicil to the USA Patriot Act…
Why do some people take an instant aversion to banjo players? It saves time in the long run.
How can you tell the difference between all the banjo songs? By their names…
What’s the difference between a fiddle & a violin?
Who cares?!? Neither of them is a banjo!
What do you call one-hundred banjos at the bottom of the ocean? A good start
—- from the canonical list of banjo player jokes.
Now, don’t get me started on accordions ….
I am so guilty.
I love banjos, accordions and bagpipes–and the women who play them.
Good additions to the list, Madrone. And I’ll borrow the blonde joke, if I may.
Everybody I like just up and left me over at Dkos after the whole pie-fight ad thing blew up. I came over here to find this…what’s that I smell? Fresh air! Ahhhhh….I can breath again! Thanks for making my first day at Booman such a great experience! I’ll look forward to more diaries from you.
The air is pretty sweet over here – I felt exactly the same way on arrival. Welcome. If you haven’t yet, please pop into one of the Welcome Diaries and introduce yourself. Tonight’s is here – but they’ve been filing up pretty quickly with all of the activity around here lately, there may be a new one by the time you read this.
Here’s hoping we can put all of this ugliness behind us…
I’d like to add one big reminder to this discussion, just in case there are any “fence-sitting” guys reading this:
Men who get these ideas, really GET these ideas, get laid well and often.
these ideas, get laid well and often.”
This is MY personal issue in my home. I am 53, was never a political feminist in public, but I must be one in private.
I’ve experienced most of the bad sex stuff- rape, abuse, harassment in many workplaces etc., – and the common thread to me is men are never ‘happy’ with the woman they have. They think, IMHO, because of all the exploitation, “sex-sells” crap that each man is entitled ‘To a big boobed beauty’ and lust at any woman who fits that sex-image regardless of age, marital status, real or imagined. The rest of us ‘have no chance’ in the continual competition.
This wears women down. Some turn a blind eye, some will get those boobies at all costs and health risks, and some will call to the carpet the piggie man whenever one is encountered.- That’s where I’m at at this age.
My husband would tell you that “I am the Jealous Type” for him that’s the answer- to me it is all about the exploitation of women as just sex toys.
Anyone who has a daughter will understand this change about and especially if one has suffered at the hands of a sick man. Or sees an old man lust after one’s daughter.
I totally blame the money people behind the exploitations of women in so many forms.
I’m sure most of this has been discussed over and over again to no avail. But because I do know a few ‘good men’ (my dad) I know not all men have been hypnotised or cultivated by the media to see women as just sex-things.
I am good in bed, love sex, but am tired of having to ‘prove’ myself a worthy woman to a man with a wandering eye. So maybe it’s time for a change for me?
From what you’ve written, you certainly deserve better! I used to be in a similar situation to yours, in fact in every relationship I had until my current husband. I felt demeaned and diminished, but had when I had enough and ended each relationship, my next wasn’t much better.
I am incredibly fortunate to have found my soul mate, who has always been appalled by infidelity, not to mention would never dream of doing anything at all that would cause me pain. He really does get it and did so before we ever met.
I hope that you eventually know the happiness of a relationship with a man who respects you in every way.
Men who get these ideas, really GET these ideas, get laid well and often.
–By the same women!
It really doesn’t seem to matter who we’re dealing with. When we stop correcting people’s reports of what they think and experience, all kinds of interesting possibilities open up.
I turn 50 this August, and Kos’s site (dick) isn’t the only one on this planet.
In addition, I have self-identified as an ardent feminist, ( I also swear like a pirate, so prepare for incoming mortar)!
I won’t even give Kos a hit re: his current attempt at blame-shifting–i.e., refusing to please everyone, or to walk on eggshells.
Fuck off, Kos.
“Sanctimonious women’s studies minor” that I am.
Sounds like he’s also threatened by intelligent women, too (no huge surprises there, either)!
I have witnessed this new netroots “I’m a Libertarian, so I can be a sexist asshole to my heart’s content…while alienating the base of the progressive movement…and never be held accountable for my attitudes or misogynistic behavior.”
Bullshit, I say.
That fucking disgusting pie ad screams volumes re: Kos’s blatant disrespect for every woman on this planet–the longer he denies and trivializes it–the more enraged I become.
Ugh.
http://www.genderads.com/
His so-called “apologies” are nothing but a more egregious insult.
It may indeed drive hits to his portal, but at what cost (both short and long term)?
I have divorced two men, so ask them how much/for how long I tolerate misogyny (esp. off my back…off my keystrokes…off my broadband).
Nada.
…nor will I “fix” or “teach” the idiots over there who expect feminists to explain, repress, shut up, minimize, or trivialize the inexcusable toxic atmosphere at that goddamned dump.
True that above: heterosexual men who indeed “get it” do get laid and sucked off on a regular basis.
Duh.
The rest get dumped, starved (I’ve been known to go on strike re: cooking/cleaning), shut off, and essentially ignored.
I perceive that those of us who’ve fought like hell in the feminist movement since the 60s-present have reached what I call the Fannie Lou Hamer “set point”:
“[We’re] sick and tired of being sick and tired.”
Damned straight.
I am similar to Kos in that I do not care one iota if I offend anyone with my feminism.
Enough of the backlash, already–go hire a Mommy to fix those boo-boos.
It won’t be off my back!
I unenrolled as a Democrat the day Harry Reid took over for spineless Tom Daschle–enough is enough–I could see where that was going.
I am perfectly content in my unenrolled status, and have no intention of donating monies, freebie labor, or any attribute of my essence of being to a political candidate with a “d” on their bio.
Women’s reproductive choices are nothing to be trivialized, minimized, placed on the back burner (same is true of “expanding the big tent” mantra–nice codeword for institutionalized sexism)–or relegated as “single issue.”
Democrats up and down the ticket in all fifty states will never be elected w/o the votes of single divorced women such as those us who are responding on Booman.
We were Kerry’s base, and not enough bothered to slam down those pesky exurban white married women voters.
…and frankly–I don’t give a damn if Democrats lose like hell in 2006 & 2008.
This so-called party of inclusion (which is a crock of shit) cannot survive w/o our votes.
I have every intention of withholding/remaining on strike until I detect a significant issues-based pattern of roll call votes, which might sway me to drag my flat ass to the polls.
Kos’s misogynistic attitude (as well as that of fellow Kossacks) is symptomatic of local, state, and D.C. Beltway twerps, who perceive that the base has nowhere else to go.
Pardon me, but all I have to do is NOTHING.
Park my ass behind the keyboard until hell freezes over.
I am (and shall always be) first, and foremost an ardent feminist.
…nor will I walk on eggshells for anyone, behave in a complicit manner, “fix” anyone (get a therapist), or “cool off” for a few days or weeks.
Ever.
Thank you, Booman, for providing a healthy safe place for progressives to inhabit.
Much appreciated
I usually fight in the trenches at dKos, meaning way down in the threads. Sometimes I get noticed, sometimes not. I feel more comfortable explaining my position to one or a few people, trying to find and fill the spaces between us with understanding.
Some people didn’t like that I called it what it was a dKos — Misogyny. Denying women a full existence, calling them a special interest, is not simple sexism, It’s hate.
More on this later, my two little boys are fighting!
I’m fully on the feminist side of the the great pie exodus. I believe the world needs to shift back from an overly patriarchal society to one more balanced with matriarchy. The one little nit I have to pick is the worrying over the term you put in your first point about using the term “pussy” as an epithet (I’m assuming that’s the word you meant and not the cruder term that women seem to universally disdain). Is this term in and of itself misogynistic?
Maybe it’s that I’m around a lot of comedians and they (men and women) use such language (including cock, dick, asshole, etc), but it doesn’t seem sexist to me. I’m open to the possibility that I’m wrong and, if so, I’d be interested in knowing why people find it so offensive.
I’m with you on the epithets. I suppose it’s a product of who I spend time with (crazed Glaswegians who call each other “cunt” as a term of endearment, for example).
And yeah, I’m a woman. It doesn’t bother me. Cunt is a great word. Very visceral. I believe that Inga Muscio’s book of the same name has just gone into a second edition…
I’ve always found that to be very powerful word. (Of course English is not my first language, so YMMV.)
I think I’d enjoy seeing it use in the same way as “balls” or “guts”. To the phrasebook:
CEO [to her head of sales]
-So who should get the Penske contract?
Head of Sales
-Donna. Although Louise is good, that is a difficult customer. You need a lot of cunt lest they waltz all over you.
Mother
-Did both you and your cousin bungee-jump?
Daughter
-No, only I. She did not have the cunt to follow through.
(Yes, I deliberately used only females in the example.)
Even if it catches on, I think that as a man I’ll be very cautious about using it. And no, I’m not being entirely flippant.
Reminds me of “tits”. Another slang anatomy term, but an ostensibly complimentary one (ie, “That’s the tits!”) I think alot of it does come down to local flavor because many things are acceptable in smaller communities where new uses of words come about (like my improv community). Perhaps it is all context, which can of course be lost on the internet.
it’s all about alliteration
I have a new policy of answering any question once.
It is offensive because it first reduces women to a slang term for a body part and then uses that as an insult.
My vagina has done nothing so wrong as to deserve to be compared to George Bush or someone you don’t like.
Fine, but when people use this term they are not using it to refer to the female anatomy. Not in any realistic sense. When I call someone a dick, I am not saying that they have the physical attributes of a penis. I’m really not trying to be difficult, but I do want to understand why it is worse than other curse words that use anatomy like those I listed.
When someone says some one is a pussy they are saying they are weak. If you want to call someone weak you compare them to a woman, but not just a woman, but her vagina. Deny it all you want, but that is the truth.
I don’t use words like Dick because of the same reasoning.
I remember when my kids started using the term “that sucks” and I explained to them where the term comes from. They were shocked (they didn’t stop using it) and since it is really not gender specific I have gotten used to the idea that people don’t understand they are talking about felatio. I use the term now too.
But the gender based insults, I will not conceed to. If calling someone a pussy is not a gender based insult then use the word wuss and don’t tell me it is less powerful.
(that’s “not equal” for those not up on their mathematical equations)
Anyone who has ever had a healthy sexual experience with a woman should know that the vagina, and indeed the whole female reproductive system, is possibly the strongest structure known to humankind. How many men would be able to carry and push out a mass the weight of an average bowling ball?
[And in the TMI department: the spouse has commented many times on my strong pussy muscles, so calling Bush or any of his ilk “pussies” is definitely inappropriate IMNSHO…]
I think it’s a matter of context. If a close friend or family member uses that sort of language, I’m not likely to be offended because I know them, and understand where they’re coming from. In those instances, words are just words.
I think the language becomes a problem when it’s used to exert power over another person. To use a rather extreme example, calling a woman a c**t because she’s being uppity (or whatever), is a handy way of reducing her to nothing more than …. well, a vagina. It’s beyond sexist or misoynistic — it’s language that negates another person’s basic humanity. That’s when I get offended.
THAT makes sense to me. Calling someone these names IS offensive if you really mean it (be it male or female genitalia or otherwise). I am more familiar with them being used in a comedic sense on a nearly daily basis so that probably distorts my perception of them.
I have no problem with a word like pussy.
“Honey, I love your pussy”, sounds pretty good to me.
My objection was to statements like:
“Rumsfeld is a pussy.”
It’s using my body part to insult a man.
The underlying assumption is:
More Masculinity = GOOD, STRONG, POWERFUL
Less Masculinity = Femininity = BAD, WEAK, POWERLESS
This is a gender specific insult.
I could say, “Barbara Boxer is the biggest swinging dick in the Senate.” It would be crude and a bit silly, but it wouldn’t be the insult that “Rumsfeld is a pussy” is. No, the nuanced reading of describing BB that way is mild disapproval at a swashbuckling use of power, and grudging admiration. There is no positive way one man can call another man a pussy.
The inferiority of women is inherent in this usage, and I can’t imagine why Democrats would fight for the right to say it when “Bush is a coward, Bush is weak,” etc., work just as well and don’t alienate Democratic woman who VOTE. But then, I’m just a member of he sanctimonious women’s studies set.
I suppose it is all about context really. Who is saying it, under what conditions. It can be a term of exhuberance and confidence when used by a woman, it can be a put down-when used by men.
In England they use “twat.” and I don’t know why, but that one in particular seems offensive to me. Maybe because I’ve only ever seen it used in the context of really mean put-downs.
Maybe the thing to do always when words come up that are meant to insult, is for the targets to immediately claim the word as their own.
Menstruating shed devils? Yes! Actually, that one was very easy to claim as a powerful image. We are she-devils, worse than the devil himself, harridans, viragos, women warriors and Buffy the Vampire Slayer too! I hear the Valkyries approach …. Mama is coming and boy is she pissed
Verbal Toxic Waste.
Nice, suitable for wall hanging in the office of your congressional representative of choice. Kay Bailey Hutchison need not apply.
KB sold her soul to the devil a long time ago. She’s tried so hard to be one of the “good ole boys” for so long that she doesn’t have a clue as to what women are going through.
and I’m not even a lesbian.
I think your list is perfect and I can’t even imagine why anyone wouldn’t accept it whole heartedly.
AS America suffers under the biggest dick attitude of the bush administration, WHERE IS SHE NOW ??? Heck with Deep Throat, where is Laurana Bobbit, when you need her. Send her with escort to the WH, then the Pentagon, then over to Fox News. THIS would get some results. Enpower Laurana Bobbit, this administration does not understand the law that we are held to.
Somewhat off subject, ooops, sorry. Got a good laugh with my gardening buddy. GRINS !!
As a male-type person I’m seeking varying perspectives on slangy potty-mouthed references to the female genital area.
Is the C word particularly bad because of the contemptuous connotations? It certainly sounds nastier than “twat”, “pussy”, or “snatch”, but is there something more to it than that? My wife tells me that it just sounds so goddam mean(rest assured that if I ever used the C word to her the next word would begin with a big D).
I associate cunt and pussy with male-oriented pornography that reduces women to receptacles for penises. That is the context I’ve seen those words the most often. Yes they reek of contempt.
Language certainly can reflect certain “values”, can’t it?
“Vagina” was originally Latin for a sheath or scabbard, i.e. a place to put one’s sword.
Jeepers…
I could be wrong, of course, but it seems to me that the use of any of those words in reference to female “naughty bits” is an entirely different thing from their use in reference to the person.
That said, Ann Coulter really is a c***.
Ann Coulter is a lot of things but the word cunt is one of the most offensive no matter who you are talking about. I really don’t get the purpose of you insisting on your right to use terms that are sexist and insulting.
You know, it really doesn’t matter if you get it or not or if you agree. How about just not using the word out of common courtesy?
I had an African American SO for several years. He had issues and experiences I couldn’t quite understand. But I defered to him because it would have been assinine to insist on pressing the issue.
I love your alliteration. Thanks for the manifesto.
Feminism is so often disavowed by young people who would otherwise embrace it, because of the repressive right-wing manipulation of language and history. Progressives should wave the Feminist banner proudly.
FFF2
yet over there, it should be. Bravo, excellent, keep up the well-written indignation!
Killer list. You can be fed up, but don’t give up.
Over 60 and still fighting. Just came from thread with Armando, the anti-DailyKossack diary, whew!
So I was reminded, full in the face, of a poem I wrote this morning — just for fun. Hope you get some joy out of it.
Summoning Portia
prick – a pointed instrument or weapon
The quality of prickdom
falleth like a hailstorm
from the place above,
where the god of
righteousness
controlleth all
not liketh himself.
He pity-eth himself,
and seeking power
from without,
determines needs
for all who listen.
Thus armed with
prick and force,
he visor-eth
his eyes and
cannot see, he
covereth his ears
and cannot hear
the human claims
of others.
And all those in
blended prickdom
faileth, not knowing
what bonds exist
unseen between
those pricked,
and bleeding,
and their insighted
defenders, who
make not claims
but tap a power
universal in
glowing lava and
aged stars,
and joining
moon shed
quiet, soft
light —
the lightening
of the Earth.
Thank you for the excellent poem.
Thank you!
I’m so glad to find you over here. I read your farewell posting over at the frat boy blog and was so hoping you’d come over here.
With health issues like yours, you really need to keep stress at a minimum and Dk had become a toxic environment.
Anyhow I’m looking forward to reading your comments in this more relaxed and refined setting.
And there were several gloating people talking pie in a nasty way. One was wondering if people who had left were coming back with new screen names. The next replied about how funny that would be, lol. You know, I’ve really come to hate “lol”. More comments ensued that denigrated the people involved.
The open thread was no longer any kind of home. It’s really sad. It’s pathetic. It’s juvenile. I wasn’t there for the pie fight, and I didn’t read the most viscious stuff, but what’s lingering is really really toxic.
People who post on these sites (and many others) are not always who the purport to be. A handful of individuals at any open progressive site can (and believe me, they do) act as agents provocateurs for the opposition. Do we really need to damn an entire community based on the lingering bad behavior of a few individuals?
Then again, apparently, we never get out of junior high school.
No wonder we lose elections.
Such a popular site is bound to attract a lot of dumb-asses. Still, it’s bothersome that they aren’t being put in their place by those who can.
They are being put in their place, but we can’t be everywhere. And many of the most ardent policers of that sort of talk, you know, sort of left.
Gee, combined with your post below, it really sounds like you almost resent that folks left.
Yet, you make the case why they chose to leave right there in that little quote. If the departure of a small group of folks (very important folks, to us both it seems) means there aren’t enough folks over their to “police” boorish behavior, well…
a) it sounds like that place has an uncivil behavior problem.
b) that problem alone is probably a large enough problem to invite folks to leave.
c) community standards (as established by the majority of posters) over there don’t adequately discourage such behavior
d) no one in authority is stepping in to clean the mess up.
But they’ve got a site admin and a cadre of frontpagers who run that site. Its really their role to do that policing. They set the tone. If other folks want to volunteer to do it, more power to them. But don’t blame the volunteers when the job isn’t getting done, especially the former ones who’ve decided to volunteer elsewhere.
I don’t want this to become the rebel base for the anti-dailykos forces. But truthfully, I just don’t see that happening. I haven’t seen sign #1 that anyone here wants to take dKos down, nor take it over. Some folks want to stay in both. Some just want the hell out.
So does everyone here need to be reverent to mother dailykos? I sure hope not. Its got problems. Its in its own best interest to deal with them.
If someone can insult the DLC, the DNC, the former presidential candidate for the Democratic Party, the Democratic Party chair, 44 Democratic Senators, and everyone who has a professional job handling the politics we’re all so passionate about, I just don’t get why someone shouldn’t feel free to print their opinion about a silly ‘Democratic’ blog! (these last comments are more related to your post below).
I look forward to the day folks who choose to remain at dKos drop the not-so-subtle jabs at the folks who decided it was too much and moved on.
Its not about some manipulative plot to harm dKos. Its about folks acting on their own personal experiences there — how they were treated, or how people they respect were treated. Treated by the site admin, treated by community members, and how that treatment has been handled or corrected (or not, as the case may be).
Sorry if that bugs some dKos loyalists. I’m glad a few of you see a segment of that site moving on as a bad thing for that site. It is. It means they (and possibly/probably potential recruits to the cause) don’t feel comfortable being there anymore. But why on earth blame the folks that left for the departure? That site should do some serious introspection, not simply invite everyone back to hope something will magically change and make it better in the (near) future.
We all already have that seeming lost-cause we have to fight to put right. Its called the Democratic Party.
Not some 3 yr old blog.
What’s the ‘reality based’ observation? Fight the real enemy, fight the real battles? And share the current pain in your life, because after all, this is a caring community.
I think some folks are busy doing just that.
Now can we all get back to it in peace?
I just said that there IS still a fight going on over there, that a lot of the fighters for one side left, and (below) that I didn’t feel comfortable with the distortions and anti-dKos propaganda.
I think you’re being a little overly defensive if you draw all of the above out of a couple pretty specific and pretty unextraordinary little posts.
Last time I was over there it looked like some newly registered posters were fanning the flames. Is it possible that people are registering just to keep the war going?
I sure think so. It’s ugly and will continue to be.
But, as ugly as Dean’s comments about Republicans?
I’ve asked upthread and will ask here as well…
I’d really appreciate some of my favorite migrating posters crossposting at dK. Some of you fill news niches that I miss.
Well, you’re implying that the debate-wreckers have a motive. Some of them might. But most of the truly abhorrent comments seemed to be eminating from the 35,000-45,000 range, which is about the time that Armando theorized an influx of Democratic Underground users. So, it may not be so much that Daily Kos as a problem (though, of course, it could be better), as that the DU disease spread. Who knows.
There’s no doubt that some people have no interest in a cessation of the conflict, and are actively trying to get their adrenaline fix by being as obnoxious and rude as they can. And that these people are new arrivals.
I can guarantee you and everyone else who might be wondering that I will not go back to dKos with a new screen name or with this name, as far as that goes.
54 & male & this is just fine by me.
Stop telling us
The 3 most important and most ignored words. Fix this problem and, in my experience, much of the rest cancels out of the equation.
All of your points are great. I agree with all of them.
However, I’m disappointed and angry at the rhetoric in this thread. I still like Daily Kos — and many of the women and men who post there and will continue to post there — and just to let you all know, wholesale damnation and this sort of Orwellian shifting hatred is scary and sickening to anyone not caught in the whirlwind of echoing and cumulative demonization.
People know that they were marginalized, yes, and Kos did the wrong thing, sure but they also should know that dKos and Kos himself aren’t suddenly some evil forces that you need to bring up and insult to prove you belong here.
You may make someone feel welcome with those smear tactics and slurs; but no one with nuance, and no one with intelligence. I certainly feel ill at reading them, knowing how it’s just selective and inflammatory propaganda your being fed about the majority of what’s going on at dKos.
If BooManTribune is just going to be like a divorced spouse insulting their ex in front of their kid, let me know so I can count myself out of this thing now.
I think a certain amount of venting is not unexpected.
I think what we’re seeing is people, in both places, sorting out how they feel by talking to their friends. I would hope that as the first sting of the recent events fades that the language in both places will become more moderate.
I know it’s probably awkward for people who patronize both sites. The refugees here are angry, and some of the folks over there are angry too. It’s a tightrope for people with a foot in both camps.
Family fights are often the most ugly, because the level of attachment and the potential for hurt is so high. I don’t envy anyone in this mess.
Hi Addison, thanks for posting. I hope you’ll check out my diary on the perspective of someone who has been here at BooMan since it first went online.
The Frog Pond is not here to serve as an anti-Daily Kos site, in fact I will do my best to make sure that it doesn’t happen. You’re hearing a lot of raw emotion over here from people who didn’t feel comfortable enough to vent over there. Does it make me unforcomfortable? sure. Have a learned alot over the past couple of days about civility? More than you can imagine. So I hope you’ll stick around, and if you haven’t had a chance yet, check out our Welcome Wagon Diaries where anyone is free to introduce themselves to the community. Peace.
P.S. I am a fan of your commentary at DKos and hope to see some of it here.
Already been to the welcome wagon. Have bunches of 4’s from various comments. Thanks.
It means a lot to know that someone’s making sure this won’t become an anti-Daily Kos, even if the viewpoints of the two sites are occasionally opposed. Both are valuable, and the mutual bashing is pointless. Thanks again.
You say it best, I think: “Both [sites] are valuable, and the mutual bashing is pointless” See you around.
The mistake that women make IMO. We spend too much time and effort trying to make other people understand our point of view. We are too conciliatory. We assume that if we have told someone the same thing five times that the don’t understand because we have not explained ourselves well enough.