It pains me to do this. It almost makes me physically ill to wade into this battle that I’ve only observed from the sidelines.. it was too ugly, too raw, too quick to degenerate into name calling. But I feel so hurt by all of the anger and misunderstandings and the mass exodus on the site that I will add my voice.
I am going to leave all the he said/ she saids behind though and tell you a little bit about me & in the process what I feel about what has transpired on dkos these last couple of days (maybe, I can’t be tied down to a point… I’m warning you all up front).
When I was a little girl growing up I always wanted to be the Professor, not Mary Ann. Or Tarzan, not Jane… surprize, suprize, I know for all those who have encountered me on this site or in real life… but I digress.
[on the flip]
I was raised my a single mom who was brought up Ukrainian Catholic. She had shame instilled in her from the beginning. She married an abusive, alcoholic at age 20 & had me 9 months later. My father threatened to put me out on the street at age 13 so I could pay my own way. Luckily my mother was still strong enough to take me out of that situation at a young age.
But the pattern continued for her. She was/ is paranoid schizophrenic and could not hold down a job. She was forced to live off of disability, student grants and her boyfriends. Not all of her boyfriends were nice guys. I was never abused, but my mother was. The one constant though was her sense of self worth & she instilled that it me as well. Throughout all of the abuse I never thought once that she deserved it. I thought they were all complete fucking assholes and told her repeatedly. But the one thing she got trapped in was being forced to use her sexuality to get her out of tricky situations with domineering men. It didn’t always work, but sometimes she was able to calm them down. That left a mark on me. The mark of knowing what women must do sometimes to survive. It is not something to be taken lightly.
All that aside, I was raised to recognize that I am a complete equal to men. It never even occured to me that someone would think I was not. I didn’t give two shits about cheerleading, or cooking, or sewing, I wanted to read & climb trees and play hockey. But I also loved my Barbie collection & Sweet Valley High. The point of this is that while I wanted to be what I wanted to be, other girls wanted to be what they wanted to be. And that was cool. To each her own.
When I hit age 17 all of a sudden I was attractive. And attracted a lot of attention. I never dressed for it though, mini skirts just really aren’t very practical when you’re a tomboy. I was never ashamed of my looks, in fact, over time, I learned to embrace them and learned to live with increased attention from men when I was not looking for it. And that’s the operative point here… when I was not looking for it.
I am in the ad world and I frequently encounter clients who make non-PC remarks, but I have come to expect it from the nature of the business I am in and the age of my (mostly male clients). I counteract it when I can, or when it crosses a line, but for the most part I have come to accept that males are wired slightly differently and react to visual stimuli in a different way than women. Most men get aroused watching porn or looking at SI Swimsuit edition. Most women do not react the same way to seeing visual images that are not right in front of them.
Which brings me to the Pie fight ad. Did I find it offensive… me personally? Not really. I am subjected to that type of visual of women in my work on a daily basis (one of my former clients was a beer company… need I say more)… and I really think that sex is beautiful and women can be really hot. But what I was offended by was it’s placement on a site that is a community of diverse compatriots. Not all women feel as I do and when you are trying to foster a spirit of unity and intellectual debate, placing an ad of two scantily clad women smothering themselves in pie on the homepage is really not conducive to that.
My mother would have taken offense. And probably not come back to the site. Especially after the host dismissed her concerns and confusion… and frankly, potentially her entire life’s struggles and pain, because he personally did not find it offensive.
Why? Because it is a male fantasy we, as females, are forced to look at while we engage in “intellectual” debate with our supposedly equal male compadres. What would the men on the site feel if they were forced to look at two men rolling around in speedos while discussing politics? Probably about the same… except, you don’t see that every day of your lives like women do. It cuts even deeper when you finally realize there is no escape from it — even on a site like dkos. It’s sad.
This was a safe haven for progressives & a valuable initiation point for disseminating the liberal message to the masses and our elected representatives. But we need to respect and cherish eachother. Yes, we all go too far in our rhetoric. Nature of the blogging beast. But it takes a big person to admit they were wrong. And I’m talking to everyone here, not just Markos. He was way wrong, as were all the other chauvanistic posts, but so were some of those from the other side who painted all men with one brush and wouldn’t give an inch. Everyone is human after all.
ps – I am not leaving since I really have no cause to… nobody pays attention to me anyway.. except for Armando every once in a while… 😉
for those who are left… 😉
Daily Kos
not because you are female — didn’t even know (or care) until recently!
I paid attention because you are articulate, thoughtful and intirguing…
Does anyboy there care that anyone “left”?
(left the typo ’cause it seemed appropriate)
thanks, I appreciate the kind words.
I honestly don’t think that many do care. A quick scroll of the diary list is full of juveniles making fun of women (or those men who share the opinion) for being upset/ alarmed/ concerned, whatever.
It’s pretty sad indeed. I wonder if Markos gave one thought to what he would bring out in the site if he chased all the liberal women away… me thinks if he doesn’t do something soon we will see the “left” equivalent of LGF.
Your posts were incredible. I think many do care, its the group dynamic, the pack mentality that seemed to dominate recently. I don’t know why, but that’s been spoiling for some time now.
We can hope that some will realize that they do care, and you certainly provided plenty of food for thought. Thank you.
What a funny — and beautifully apt — Freudian slip.
Thanks for a nice little laugh.
discussions that have been going on over there since this began are so offensive, childish, not even worthy of a Jr. High locker room. It is like looking at some people in a totally different light. I know it is individuals and not an entire group, but it really makes me wonder how long this has been going on and how long have I been blind to it. Some of the names I have looked up to, I now look down upon. It has been a really, really SAD last few days. People comparing it to Ohio Diaries…please…Some are acting like a bunch of asses now. I am a guy and am really embarrassed for some of the guys over there. This is NOT a laughing/joking matter. Lots of scrambling going on. Word is out that Booman is the place to be.
or some other -leaf that came to my d-fence agin Armando when I commented that he took Plutonium Page’s diary about–genital mutilation off the front page too quick?
I believe it ’twas me… was that the one where she didn’t even FP it first?
and I had, at the time, thought you were a male sticking up for me, and I thought-wow-breakthrough. (though, to be honest, there are a good number of honorary “kos-ovarians” there. they need to slap the others upside the head. a few seem to be doing it today.
it’s like watching the hyenas come out to feed…
and the men left who are sensible and reasonable are getting drowned out in the juvenile posturing. I hope tomorrow is a new day, but unless Markos actually addresses his bullshit statements the inmates will continue to run the asylum.
There is some genuine sadness about the apparent exodus of women from kos, and some sophomoric “don’t let the door hit you…” stuff as well.
I think everyone is stunned and wanting to step back from it but someone posts a fresh diary and it’s opened up again.
Know what troubles me most of all? Markos’s silence.
Yes, Markos’ silence is quite unfortunate – but just reinforces why I no longer want to be a part of that community.
I had always admired him, even when some of his other remarks made me wonder.
But now I see him in a whole new light. There’s no way around it. He has no concern about the women he has pissed off. No concern whatsoever, he’s said it in 2 different posts.
I was just watching the PBS station here, and Calrence Paige of the Chicago Tribune was doing a piece on bloggers–and at they end they showed several screens, and one was a diary by Spiderleaf!!!!!!!!!!
It went so fast I didn’t see the site.
OOOOOH ^5 for spiderleaf!!!
NO WAY! That is totally cool… which show was it (I’m on EST)?
the KQED station in San jose, Ca. but a lotta those PBS broadcasts have replays. I’ll do some research.
omigoddess your name in lights just after I typed to you!
‘It never even occured to me that someone would think I was not. I didn’t give two shits about cheerleading, or cooking, or sewing, I wanted to read & climb trees and play hockey’
Yippee! Me either.
BUT , I DID become a cheerleader.Stupidest thing I ever put up with. I believe I was the first one at my school to walk out of that nonsense.They were shocked! shocked!
(snicker)
I do not put up with nonsense from anybody,whether it is online or off.
exactly how it should be. everyone is human and equal.
🙂
It will be interesting to see what different responses might arise:
Wonderful diary. Thank you for sharing a personal story.
Sadly, had the atmosphere here been more receptive to listening a couple of days ago, more women might have shared their stories and the reasons behind their concerns. Perhaps more of the folks here would have truly heard what others were trying to say, and processed the whole debate differently and in a more civilized manner.
I’ll take a risk and share a personal story too. My best friend’s daughter, 15, last year was going through a tough time – nightmares, not sleeping. It happened that I was there the day that she finally talked about what was bothering her. She had recently become aware of how men – not just boys her age – were looking at her. Staring. Occasionally making comments. She was truly frightened. Smart mom decided that she would have karate lessons – not just self defense lessons, but karate to build her self confidence that she could handle herself if attacked.
My son is almost 15, having his own physical image problems. He has not yet had his growth spurt, and is a bit on the chubby side. He gets teased about both those things. But he will have the growth spurt, and the weight issue will be up to him to control if necessary after he grows into his adult body. In the meantime, he is doing wrestling and weight-training to build the best body he can in the hopes that it will be noticed and admired.
The difference is starkly clear. The young woman who has come of age faces 20-30 years of unwanted attention from strangers. The young man will be looking for it – because he does not have to fear it.
I was far too old to want to be either the Professor or MaryAnn – but I sure did covet the chemistry set that my brother had when we were kids in the fifties. Never got my own because my parents didn’t think that it was appropriate for a girl.
So these days I help my mom get in and out of my F350 pickup truck 😉
When I read about that chemistry set. I also always coveted a race car track. You know, push a button and the little cars go ’round and ’round.
Never got it, was told it wasn’t “for girls.”.
I can remember so many things … when I was in 6th grade, I wan’t to be on the safety patrol. No big deal, you stand at the corner and put down the cool, orange flag that stopped cars.
So I asked to do that.
Nope. Only boys. I asked why and they hemmed and hawed and came up with some garbage about boys always doing it.
Silly, really, but I’ll never forget.
I noticed you, enough to feel happy when I saw your name here.
But I know what you mean. I could say, with probably even greater accuracy that nobody noticed me. There was no reason they should since I didn’t diary or get involved in arguments. But when you say that is why you have no reason to leave, I’d say there’s another reason to leave, which is to withdraw our tacit support for women. . .and sympathetic men. . .being treated like that.
Not trying to convince you, just telling you my reason.
I loved this wise and gentle diary.
Wired differently? No… I’d say that men are trained to react differently. There’s a lot of peer and social pressure that seems geared towards selling porn as attractive that’s thrown at them in early adolescence.
Either that, or I’m simply wired differently. I’m not particularly into porn. And I’d rather be friends with (or date) “Professor” type women than empty-headed Mary-Ann type women. A lot of my friends, both in high school and university, are the same way. (Of course, there’s also a lot of the drooling Neanderthal stereotype, but I generally find them unpleasant enough for other reasons to not consider them friends)
Though I will admit that I would love to see the reaction to that hypothetical speedo ad…
One of the most central comments you made was
“It cuts even deeper when you finally realize there is no escape from it — even on a site like dkos.”
That’s why all of the analogies we laid at their feet fell flat. They don’t live this every moment of every day.
Beautiful, insightful work.
And I always wanted to be Pope.
“It cuts even deeper when you finally realize there is no escape from it — even on a site like dkos.”
Yeah. Sigh.
to be a great writer, the female Hemingway. But instead I AM a professor. And women are slighted in academics, too. There seems to be an unconscious divide: Women write about “soft” stuff (which includes feminism for most men) and men tackle the real issues.
I wanted to be a poet (in the Beat era tradition), but poets are a dime a dozen at least when it comes to making a living. Lo and behold, I too am a professor. It’s a cool day job. 🙂
And you’re right on – women in academe are still getting the short end. I remain hopeful that will change, though that change occurs so frustratingly slowly.
Out of all the things I wanted to be, I never thought I would end up being an attorney. This is also a difficult profession for a woman. Many times, over the phone, people assume that I am a secretary, etc. and want to speak to a “real lawyer.”
Well, I am a real lawyer. I was also a cheerleader in high school 😉
and welcome. I just wanted to invite you to pop over to the Welcome Wagon Diary to say hello. It seems to be a tradition around here for newbies to introduce themselves, and a couple of the senior members of this site have been working hard to personally welcome everyone. Me? Well, I’m just out trying to nudge people over there. (yep- exactly like herding cats)
You have a distinct advantage since many people have a negative stereotype of “real lawyers”. White, middle-aged, male assholes. With so much dumped on the legal profession, finally a perk for women!
Hi spiderleaf — great diary!
I’m smiling because I identified with the Professor too! Now I am one. Best of all, I get to work with other women who are intelligent, curious about stuff, and good at solving problems. Also men with those same qualities, but I really like having a critical mass of women ‘professors’ around me.
I felt as you did about the ad — on the Web, it’s nothing to look twice at. But on Daily Kos, it seemed out of place.
Kos’s response was unfortunate. I know what it’s like to feel defensive about making a decision that ended up bothering some people. It feels awful! But it really pays to listen to what other people are saying, even if you don’t agree — and not blow it by insulting them.
We live in a culture where a woman can object quite reasonably to something, in an even-tempered way, and will be called ‘hysterical’ or ‘unreasonable’ or ‘shrill’ or any other of the terms we all know so well. It’s not fair. But it’s out there. It’s part of the playing field we’re on. And we can see it a lot better than men can.
In fact, it’s a lot like how the Right wing reacts to Progressives. We say something reasonable, we don’t lose our cool — but it’s played up in the echo chamber as shrill and hysterical. Funny, that.
I understand his defensiveness after he clarified his position.
Kos is out to make a name for himself. I don’t begrudge him this, because the name of the game in politics is relevance as you have to be damn good at marketing yourself to stay relevant (something I wish more of our political planners seemed to grasp).
It’s his site and he only wants to talk about the subset of issues that interest him. He’s made that clear now and I can understand how other posters wanting to natter on about annoying sideline issues were such a hassle.
*and, not as
Grrr…
Did anyone else ever want to be Mrs. Peel from The Avengers? If you are old enough to remember the original Gilligan’s Island, then you may have watched The Avengers too. I was about ten then, and Mrs. Peel totally inspired and empowered me. Such a radical female character for the times! She was beautiful and had great clothes, which I admired, but she was brilliant (always doing scientific experiments and writing scholarly articles), and she could kick the $%&^&** out of the bad guys on a regular basis. And her male crimefighting partner, Steed, simply admired and respected her, as well he should. I <SO> wanted to be like her when I was ten. Hell, I still want to be like her.
By the way, I am from Kos too, mainly a lurker. No, I didn’t like the ad, but I didn’t pay too much attention to it. Yes, I agree it was the response that was the main problem.
I was a bigger fan of the Avengers than I ever was Gilligan’s Island. Emma Peel…yum! (And I say that as a straight but not narrow human of the female persuasion.) And the respect that John Steed showed her, always calling her “Mrs. Peel” when they’d been working together for so long that he could easily have gotten away with an “Emmy, dear” now and then.
BBC America was carrying the show…wonder if they still have it…
I think it’s still on Friday nights. And of course is available on DVD. Anyone who has never seen it, please check it out for a look at a wonderful nontraditional female role model, way ahead of her time back in the swinging sixties. No pie for Mrs. Peel!
A site I write for sometimes, The American Street, did post an ad for a gay dating service for tall guys. It showed two tall guys kissing.
The reaction was interesting. Nobody got too bent out of shape about it, but several people said it made them uncomfortable. It seems that it was mostly men who felt that way.
When I was in college in the 70s (and taking womens’ studies!), I once posted a Playgirl centerfold in my living room. I lived in a mixed-sex house and there was plenty of traffic of both types. The men were really bugged by having to look at a naked man and would invariably ask me to take it down. I thought it was an interesting experiment and a worthwhile way to explain to the men I loved how objectification feels.
I realize this is kind of a generational thing, but obviously objectfying ads as well as porn bug me. I don’t particularly care about what people do on their own time, but I don’t like it popping up in my face where I don’t expect to see it. It’s just creepy.
Amazing! Thanks for sharing this.
Me … I posted a diary here today and at dKos: it’s Part 1 on my reflections about the pie wars and the diaries.
Part 2 I thought would complete the picture … it’s already planned.
But reading this, made be think about my own mother … a pre-feminist, post-suffragette woman with a masters degree from Columbia University that she received in 1930. She met a man, and married him when she was 31, who at that time was an “emotional find”, relatively speaking for that time.
But having been an orphan and settling into a role that she had no training for, she became a bitter wife and a vicious mother.
I’ve come to terms with her jealousy of her daughters, as have two of my three sisters. The three of them have idolized their father as “the perfect man”. I have a more realistic view. But he was the better parent. I was the “menopause baby” so it took me longer to come to terms with her. Her dislike for my sudden arrival was a wound that took years to heal.
Frankly, I think kos was very wise for not censoring the ad. It brought up a lot of soul searching and creativity among both the men and women of kos. And some of the diaries have been breathtaking.
True, it brought up a lot of noise as well. But his decision was an object lesson in why censorship is deceptively destructive to a community and “openness” is deceptively healing. “Echo chambers” produce complacency; being offended is the way to grow personally.
I’ve been pretty distant from this whole mess – sort of knowing what was going on, and sort of not. I don’t see ads, and I haven’t spent much time at the site lately except to post and make a rare comment.
But I’ve also seen the related comments here and back at dKos, and have started to get a sense of the anger and hurt and resolve as they’re being expressed by so many people that I’ve come to respect – women and men.
Your diary has turned on the “I think I get it” light for me.
Thanks.
I saw your diary at dKos today. I was so disheartened by the first commet and the general concensus that seems to be forming about goodbye to bad rubbish. Maybe a bit of an overstatement but I’m now beginning to think that this is how echo chambers begin to form.
Good to see you here. I’m new as well. Have not yet given up on dKos but I like the more laid-back atmosphere here so far.
I’ve never gotten so many comments, and while there were some that reeked of freeperville, there was plenty more of intelligent and respectful discussion as well.
Several diaries on the topic here and at dKos, most notably Spiderleaf’s, prompted me to go on record. I needed to stand up for something, and I finally figured out what that was.
I, too, was one of the “professor types”. Still am. 99% of the time I am a super “tomboy”, even now that I’m married, working with students most of the time, etc.
How did I get that way? I think a lot of it was my dad. Although we didn’t (and don’t) always get along, my parents taught me that I could be pretty and strong – to be proud of my body for the “boyish” things I could do better than most boys – like climbing trees, hanging upside down and not getting sick, running, playing kickball – “boy stuff”.
That’s the catch, though. I say “boy stuff” now, but it was never “boy stuff” then. I was just a girl who could play with the boys and not be intimidated. Only since I’ve “grown up” have I come to see my usual past times as a child through a gendered lens. It is something I regret most sorely.
Case in point – my dad used to take me down to a boxing gym on the coast. I loved every minute of it. At first boys stared because there was a girl in a sports bra and shorts. Then, boys stared because I was fast. Their responses quickly crossed from visceral to intelligent.
I think for the most part, the response to the ad is going through the same process. The visceral part still lingers but the tone of the discussion has started to come down a bit – with reasoned responses like this one and a couple of others I saw last night perhaps we can start to look at this rationally without so much anger.