Update [2005-6-8 11:59:4 by catnip]: I added a comment near the end of the diary about my health status. Hope to see you all again soon.
______________
I joined this site shortly after it began and, while happily ignoring my health problems staying busy by hanging out and posting over at Daily Kos (resulting in an emergency trip to the hospital last nite to finally get that serious back pain checked out and finding out it was a kidney stone – no wonder it hurt so bloody much), I didn’t take the time to check out Booman Tribune that much.
So, here I am – the evening after the horrendous nite before and I’m posting on a blog again? Why? Because enough is enough.
After I read Booman’s Defense of Markos diary over the now infamous “pie fight” ad, I e-mailed him privately and told him I couldn’t support this site either if that’s where he stood. Simply being too busy to take enough time to put some thought and consideration into front page posts didn’t wash with me. The situation at dKos is endemic. Boo e-mailed me back and let me know that he had recosidered his support because he hadn’t had all of the facts at hand, but I’m still not sure he’s really pulled his defense of kos. I haven’t read enough here in the past 2 days (because I’ve been too busy writhing in pain!) to know exactly where Boo stands. So, please fill me in.
Now – back to why I’m posting tonite. I don’t want to bring the pie fight ad war over here, but after checking in on dKos tonite and seeing the latest version of that ad – one that depicts “Maryanne” holding “Ginger” down while her carefully placed red piece of material suggests a penis she’s prepared to thrust into “Ginger”, I cannot, for the life of me, understand how anyone who believes in women’s rights and has been forgiving of kos can cosign that kind of depiction on a progressive, liberal site.
Is that what will bring in women voters? Is that just something else for the macho crowd and women in denial to snicker about to the detriment of women’s “delicate sensivities”? Am I now one of those sanctimonious women’s studies people, having never taken a women’s studies course in my life?
Oh, I have a lot to say about why I am a feminist and I’m sure I will write about that, but not tonite. All I ask is that those of you who continue to defend kos explain to me how this new version of the ad is even remotely acceptable, because I sure don’t understand it. And, don’t you dare attack me as being humourless, sexless, out of touch with my sexuality or prudish. You know absolutely nothing about me. So, tell me – rationally, what that depiction does to promote the values of liberals and the Democratic Party.
P.S.
Yes, I left Daily Kos. No, it wasn’t over the ad. Yes, Markos’s comments were the final straw. No, I wouldn’t post this at dKos because it’s glaringly obvious that a large segment of “progressives” over there simply don’t understand what the battle for women’s rights has entailed. I’m sorry to say that I truly see that issue as a lost cause in the current dKos climate. I see more hope here. I need your help. Please enlighten me.
No answers from me since I am still numb from some of the comments that were posted. The total disregard of women’s issues or equality issues by a large number of posters sent me into shock.
I know that there are reasonable people that don’t like what’s happening there but they are getting shouted down.
My coming here was gradual and was never intended to be a full break from DailyKos. After the last 2 days of attempting reason…I’ll go back but briefly and rarely.
Maybe lorraine or MSOC or one of the others can help…I’m in shock and clueless.
Hi Sally. I’m in shock too – in more ways than one. I’ll stick around here a little while longer tonite, but I really need to get back into bed. Thanks to everyone who’s trying to help me out.
I don’t know if chicken soup will help, but I’m sure rest will.
I tried to email you after your GBdK (Goodbye dKos) diary, but it bounced, so I’m glad to see you over here!
I haven’t clicked on any of the ads, figuring them for the waste of bandwidth they are, and now I’m glad I didn’t.
I’ve got so much to say, but it’s too jumbled in my mind…so I’ll try to get things sorted out and just say welcome, friend…
Hi Cali. My dKos e-mail addy had NOSPAM in it that had to be removed. Feel free to e-mail me anytime.
Hi catnip. First and foremost, I hope you are getting enough rest or meds or whatever there might be in the world to ease your pain.
Second, Booman’s most recent public position is this one:
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/6/7/142046/4429
There is a lot of thoughtful commentary here today from Lorraine and others. I respect Boo for being able to reconsider his position, which people over THERE don’t seem to be able to do. Briefly, I think he is generally pleading for folks to be understanding of diarists who take a risk when they post their opinions, but not defending Kos’ specific comments or his showing anyone the door.
Third, the current version of the ad was too much for even me and I live in NYC. If one of my clients allowed that picture to be posted in their office they’d be asking for a hostile work environment lawsuit and the plaintiff would be rightly counting the dollar signs in her head.
Kos’ silence is deafening. Earlier today Armando posted a pieces entitled something like Dems Support the Right to Choose and Kos posted three other pieces within 15 minutes that pushed the pro-choice diary way down the page. I don’t want to be a conspiracy theorist but today it is all too much.
I’m glad that you are here.
Thanks so much. I’ll catch up on my reading here. I really do appreciate Boo for taking the time to almost immediately respond to my concerns. That says a lot.
It’s nice to get all of these welcomes.
That that ambulance chasing advertiser on the right there —->
is besmirching my screen name.
Sue him. 🙂
my knees were still good enough to chase ambulances.
Try tirebiting
Tire bites man story-
Way back when I used to work in a filling station as a pump monkey. It was station policy that employees in my job description were to offer customers free assistance with air and water for their vehicles.
One day a guy pulls up to the air pump in his Mercedes and gets out of his car. I asked him if he would like assistance and he curtly refused (from his tone I got the impression he thought I was hunting for tips or something.)
So the guy starts filling his tire- and a long time goes by. I ask him if he needs some assistance and he again refuses. A few minuites later- BANG; the man stands up, dazed, the sidewalls of his tire wrapped around what was left of his arm. Apparently the guy thought you just added air until the pump stopped working.
Lesson- tires are dangerous and should be left in the hands of professionals.
joining the GIRLCOTT here, though I have posted here long before. kinda like the co-equal energies of Hu & Boo! And Rub’s witness gets more attention here!
and I think it’s not only the ad but a whole number of things at dkos that came to a boil. the “dismissiveness” toward women in comments rather than actualy content of diaries, I guess.
like you disagree with one of the alpha males there, and when you come back to the thread, find him saying “she probably thinks I ruined her life”
you know, shit like that.
I’ve been thinking about the Joni Mitchell diary you did the other night. It almost feels like it should be a preliminary roll-call of sorts over here. Is everyone accounted for? Are there any left behind in battle?
Miss D – you BH, you. 🙂 Good to see you here. Have a big hug.
…an alpha male at Daily Kos, or maybe not, but we aren’t all dismissive.
At any rate, what a drag to know that the place has lost you and so many other good commenters and Diarists.
I hate the thought of Catnip being hurt by this because she has contributed so much with her live diaries and her lively comments.
I left before the recent imbroglio and mostly go to DKos for the Saturday Gardening blog. (typical woman!)
Hope you post here often. I appreciate the great value there is in good writing like yours.
Thank, sybil. hugs
First off, more correct Yoda could not be.
Going on, though, I think it’s too early to tell what the end result of this episode will be. Yes, dKos is losing some quality posters, which is a loss for that site. This place is gaining some new folks, which could be seen quite easily as a gain. The two sites will remain linked to each other because there are also a number of people who’ll continue to cross-post, and both sites are within a network of lefty/Dem blogs. Many of the conversations will continue, but with more clicks in between.
You’re right. This is a drag. Chatting with folks on both sites about the sense of loss, about the sense of saying, a la Tigger, TTFN hasn’t been easy. This whole episode sucks, but it’s also provided an opportunity to bring some of these issues even more to the fore, where they’ve needed to be.
As my sister and her chaplaincy colleagues might say, this whole episode is AFOG (Another Fucking Opportunity for Growth).
In our house we say that “experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want”
I am so damned experienced I’m a pro at some things!
Great acronym fron your sister…
“Experience is what you get…” I’m stealing this for use at my house, thanks!
You’re right. I’ve actually been heartened by many of the responses and I’m so glad that you haven’t been alone.
As for me? I have a potty mouth like MSOC (and I mean that lovingly, I do!) and can verbally cut anyone down to size at will.
I’ve worked in politics long enough to know that when I go “home” I don’t want to fight. I’ve been dealing with BS all day and have no desire to read the rantings of a poor boy’s Drug Rush Limbaugh. Does that mean I don’t want my ideas challenged? No. But I know when I’m being disrespected and I don’t play that shit. And to have the host DELIBERATELY stoke such an atmosphere and generally behave like stupid, petulant brat is telling. I won’t support that.
And to think that I had considered supporting that site with my dollars! I wouldn’t cross the street to spit on him if he was on fire.
Mom’s life lessons, #2: Don’t beg anyone to take your money if you’re not respected and welcome. If I walk into a store and you follow me like I’m gonna steal something, don’t expect me to stay.
Same rules apply.
“I’ve worked in politics long enough to know that when I go “home” I don’t want to fight. I’ve been dealing with BS all day and have no desire to read the rantings of a poor boy’s Drug Rush Limbaugh.”
This is exactly my position. I work in a Red area of the state, in Manufacturing and all day I have to listen to IQ’s under 100 make little derogatory remarks. My idea of relaxation isn’t to visit Hooters.
Plus Booman has spellcheck
Heh, heh.
Like I said, storms are good. It clears the air and you learn what you can depend upon, and what you cannot.
So it’s cool…that storm blew in a great blog with spellcheck. I LOVE it! I just have to remember to use it…
And I like the color scheme too.
This is a great blog, but I continue to feel that Progressive women need a separate site. There is no reason that we can’t post on both.
TIME!! Yikes!
Seriously, though–I agree. I like the Women Kossacks idea–needs a name change, but other than that, I like it.
That’s what troubled me most. The Lord of the Flies atmosphere.
I can tell you that the Hooters mentality isn’t limited to manufacturing or red states. Sadly, my experience with IQs over 100 is just as appalling, maybe more so. I say if you wouldn’t want your daughter called “hysterical” because she objected to being the object of “healthy sexuality”, then no amount of justification for that mentality cuts it.
I just wanted to invite you over to the Welcome Wagon diary. Many of the new arrivals have been stopping in there to introduce themselves and say hi. The ‘getting to know you’ process seems to be a big part of what keeps this place civilized.
Welcome Wagon? Do we get baskets of free stuff??
there was champagne and hors d’oeuvres – I even heard mention of some fresh strawberries….
Love the sig I do! Hubby and I think it’s a scream b/c it’s so true.
I’ve also been over to visit The Next Hurrah…very well done.
Liberal Streetfighter. The Next Hurrah. Booman Tribune. Wow. I didn’t really have time to read that other blog, and now I’m gonna have to fit in three?
Get me somebody in scheduling…!
Hey–MB, I was referring to the alpha males who still need to mark their territory with “we-we”, and you aren’t one of them..I cannot recall when you have ever been dismissive. also suspect you have more experience in politics than perhaps years that Kos has been alive.
I’m not entirely lost to the place but I did observe that Markos latest post reminds the readers “This blog is about the Democratic party, Iraq and electoral politics. Period” Too bad it seems women’s issues can’t find a place in those categories, if that is what he is implying.
Lord knows the Democratic party and electoral politcs are never about women.
</snark>
in Iraq. Or in the US military.
Oops, sorry — I echoed you above, not having gotten this far!
Exactly. . . .
…that are excluded if the site only sticks to those three areas of interest: environmentalism, for instance.
In fact, despite Markos’s disclaimers, everything from reproductive rights to race, the social safety net to federal judges, the economy to Bush’s destruction of scientific discourse have received ample discussion on the front page and in Diaries all the time. Hundreds of thousands of people read those posts, and tens of thousands read them. Daily Kos is so much more than what its founder and owner is saying it is, and the only way he can restrict it to those three categories he mentioned is to destroy it.
…thousands write comments on them. (Preview is your friend, preview is your …)
that could fit within Kos’ blinder vision, even so — such as the treatment of women in the military, in and beyond Iraq.
But I don’t expect to see much on that issue there.
I have an incredible amount of respect for you. You speak from reason and passion. Thanks for popping into my humble diary. (I’m off to bed again soon and back to the doc’s again later, but I wanted to get your perspective on something).
One thing that has confused me in the discussion about the big dKos picture is the argument that,”It’s kos’s blog and he can do whatever he wants”, quickly followed by “the community isn’t about kos, the community is in the diaries”. That seems to me to be a “have your cake and eat it too” argument.
When I get my dkos headlines via My Yahoo!, they’re the front page post headlines – not the diaries. I don’t have an RSS feed, but I imagine the scenario is the same. Following that, when CNN’s “Inside the Blogs” scans the latest blog stories, they look at what the front page posts entail – not what’s in the larger community of diaries. The public face of any blog is the front page, yet I see the justification of the defense of dKos, as I outline above, as being acceptable to many. It’s so and so’s blog, but it isn’t really.
I see that as an attempt to take away from the responsibility of the blog owner – just as kos’s “I’m not Atrios, but yeah – what he said” entry is a way of trying to appease by inferring that others in the community take up the mantle on various issues, so what he says doesn’t really matter.
I’m rambling. I know I haven’t been very clear. I understand the “larger community” issue. I just can’t resolve this duel stance that some seem to take.
…Diary, I tried to email – I DID email you – but the address you left at DKos didn’t work. I’m glad you haven’t given up blogging altogether, although, as I’ve said to several other posters here and elsewhere, I am sorry to see you abandon DKos, despite the profound provocation.
A “duel” may be one word for what has long been going on over exactly what is Daily Kos. No doubt that it IS Markos’s site, and he CAN do what he wants with it, including shutting it down altogether. On the other hand, unlike most other well-known blogs, it is FAR FAR FAR more than the proprietor’s site, his (and the other Front Pagers’) posts and his vision.
Certainly, he had no idea three years ago, two years ago, even a year ago that the site would be what it is today. Less than two years ago, when the Diaries were added, there were only 5,000 or so registered users. In the late summer of 2004, there were still fewer than 20,000. Now there are 55,000. Sometime around the election last year, Diaries hit 400 a day! More material from more sources than any daily newspaper in the country.
But, you’re right. The Front Page is the public face of any blog, and since most readers are hit and run and many readers don’t read bylines, what is said by Markos and other front pagers get more attention, just as in a newspaper. That’s true here, too, I’ll guess.
While I strongly disagree with Markos’s on “women’s issues,” and several other things, I also greatly respect what he has done in providing a place where thousands can meet and talk, organize, gather information and develop projects. All of it without no censorship and teensy numbers of banned trolls (all of them people you and I would have banned, too). Providing that forum without trying to control what is said may seem an obvious approach for a progressive, but it is no small matter.
Does it excuse the offensive pie ad and the far more offensive reply to the pie ad objectors? No way.
I was fortunate to be asked by Markos to post on the Front Page 20 months ago, and I enjoyed my year-long stint there. But, as with my relationship with the Democratic Party, radical and liberal political groups and publications I’ve been involved with, there’s been a love-hate dynamic at work. Some days, I want to puke. Others, I’m cheering. All I know is, I won’t be leaving until somebody kicks me out. Nor will I shut up about issues that concern me even if they aren’t Markos’s issues.
I’m sending good energy your way in hopes it may in some small way help improve your health.
Kos can and has shaped his audience, no more or less than any other media shapes its audience. His pieces are editorial and reflect the official position of the site.
That he has not shut out other voices is certainly to his credit, but those other voices are a large part of his audience share. Pissing away audience share and political clout seems terribly immature and immaturity IMO is the fuel for this fire.
that crap today because I don’t want to be misinformed or out of touch. All that garbage about ‘the Democratic party, Iraq and electoral politics, Period’ and women and sexism fits snuggly into every single one of those topics. I wasn’t really that ticked yesterday but today is a totally different shade of pissed. Markos is all about being arrogant, ignorant, and Fucker, Period! If he thinks he is on his way to political consulting on a serious level he has to be delusional after the shit he has written these past two days! Who is he going to consult for FOX?
a lot of news sources I read in the morning end of being sited at dKos. I think you could stay pretty well informed about stuff going on by following BBC, Juan Cole, Today in Iraq. Latimes, nytimes, war & piece, etc. (I know my choices reflect my predominant interest in Iraq but there’s a lot of other stuff out there on other issues, too)
the latest breaking news page at Democratic Underground and CLG.
I wouldn’t recommend posting at DU, since it is as infected with primary canidate hero worship (small handfuls of Clark and Kerry cultists). But it is a great place to get the lastest breaking news.
CLG is also a great sorce. Funny I can’t even remember what those initial stand for.
I never understood why Rub’s photos didn’t garner more attention/comments from the Kos community, daily stalkers etc. I wonder if it was indicative of the “progressives” on the site, the age group etc. I don’t know. And Catnip, I don’t have any answers yet, I’m new to the site. I couldn’t stand the Ad. I can’t understand why it’s still up and I don’t like Marcos’ attitude, limited thinking and obvious worldview on women. It’s disquieting don’t you think? Anyway, from reading Boo’s first statement in defense I suppose of Kos, I thought he was just being polite toward another blogger. We know Kos isn’t just a blogger (see Armando’s comments on Boo’s front page) and I hope his wife gives him a big wake-up call before he is further absorbed into party politics.
…but getting on the Recommended list requires Recommenders. Come join us.
I can’t offer any of the answers that you need right now to work through this, but I did want to hop in and say that I’m glad you’re here. Many, many of the recent refugees have asked about you, and just a little while ago, to yet another catnip question, I responded – “if she shows up, you’ll have to elbow your way through the crowd to give her hugs”.
Consider this my hug.
(wabegg in my previous existence)
Thank you so much. Be gentle with the hugs. 🙂
(ouch, ouch, ouch, ouch!)
I like your new name! Thanks for the welcome back. hugs
OK, Leo, my great Maine Coon, just did a gentle rub around my computer screen. She KNOWS there is catnip around! I’m very glad to see your words popping up here!
Awww! Ya, right. lol
But thanks! 🙂
CATNIP !
We’ve been looking for you. I’m so glad you’re here, too.
Are you drinking gallons of water ? I’ve done the kidney stone thing myself, once every 6-7 years. Natural childbrith is a vicarage tea party compared to passing a stone.
Just can’t relate the recent horrors over: 1) abortion as a Democratic bargaining chip to be traded away for moderate votes, 2)using women’s body parts to insult Republicans for not being masculine enough [!?!], 3)softcore porn ads on dkos, 4)Markos snide dismissal of us.
There are several diaries here that do a great job.
I’m happy to see you, Catnip.
Hi Susan. I’ve had kidney stones before – over a a decade ago. Last nite, when trying to measure my pain, the doctor asked me if I remembered childbirth. I said “No, I blocked THAT out!” 🙂 It was 27 years ago, anyway, and the labor lasted 38 hours. No need to remember that. That’s for damn sure.
As I said to some before I left dKos, it was a long time coming and I’m looking forward to spending more time with like-minded, inclusive, and supportive people. That’s what I need in my life and that’s what being liberal is all about.
Prejudice is always an expensive hobby. Just give it time.
That’s very true. I forgot to note that TBS (responsible for the ad) will be hearing from me as well.
Interestingly, even TBS doesn’t post this crazy-a$$ picture on its front page. You have to actually click on a pie-fight link to see such a thing.
Well of course not! How gross! 😀
People over there (heh, I have a feeling folks will see a lot of ‘over there’ over here) still don’t seem to get that Markos’ comments were the final straw. They either think you left entirely because of them, or they weren’t a factor. I read your statement early in the post and thought ‘damn, that’s the last we’ll see of the wonderful Catnip around these parts’.
I’m not sure what Booman thinks, but I have my theories and guesses. Having a large spike at this site has to make him pretty happy, but to speculate with further details is probably a little unfair.
How about this thought. Kos said what he said, and many people said ‘You da man, man!’. I don’t think you would see the same reaction here at all if our host said something similar. Perhaps the beliefs of the regulars of any given site should factor in your decision.
It’s ultimately your choice where you want to blog. I only have one request – please let us know where that will be. I for one will follow and read regularly.
Cheers!
Stranger
Thank you. I was appalled when I went back through kos’s thread and read many of the “get over it” comments. Like I inferred, I will share my personal experiences about why I am a feminist and then I dare anyone to tell me to “get over it.”
My health has to be my number one concern and I did post a further explanation in a comment in my farewell diary about why I was leaving. I really screwed up my priorities in life and I’m paying for it now. The comments by kos were just the push out the door that I needed to get on with things.
Catnip, I posted on your GBCW diary at Kos to beg you to stay, before you informed us that your health was at risk. Now I’m going to recommend (like the directive bastard that I am) that you keep doing exactly what you’re doing — taking care of your health at all costs. There are other people fighting this war for you now — you were the first, but Lorraine has taken up the mantle, and Maryscott, and McJoan (and my humble self). You can afford to take some days off and just rest — the issue will not die, I assure you.
I myself am off to Kos to refocus the debate on this newest and latest ad.
I need one too — I can’t decide what to do…
First off, I was one of the people who was waiting to see if you showed up and I am so glad you did!! I hope you are rsting well and will be on the mend and out of pain in short order!!
Second though, I have a concern here as well. Though everything is more civil and restrained, I have to ask you what you think of this. I have been waiting all day for soj to come back in and say something, but so far…nada.
I ask your opinion because I don’t know what to think (can’t think yet, still mad) — did I just jump out of the fire into the fying pan??
I know you posed the question to catnip, but I’ve got to say, everything I’ve ever read that Soj has posted before this has been so extraordinary, so smart, so literate that I have no way to explain this diary if hackery’s not involved. It is actually breathtakingly inexplicable. What is going on?
Catnip, boy howdy is it good to see you over here!
Listen. . .it is going to take some time, and we have a lot of room to rant and rave over here, or whatever it takes for us all to heal and move on to more productive things.
But, I am going to open up our theraputic hot tub and get her fired up so any and all looking for some quiet soothing time can just come on in and sit a spell.
We need all of your voices. . .everyone here. . .and we are just darn happy to have you however long you decide to be with us.
We have several, so just get yourself on in there and let us know what else we can do for you.
Shirl
First of all, I understand the issue of advertisements. I decided not to have google ads when I realized that I wouldn’t have veto power over what was displayed. Or, at least, that was my understanding.
I had someone complain about an ad depicting a beheaded Tom DeLay. They had been friends with Daniel Pearl, and it upset them. I contacted the sponsor, and he changed the ad.
I try to be responsive to the community and I will listen to anyone who is offended by an ad. I won’t tell you to go find another website if you don’t agree with my decision to keep an ad up.
Secondly, I am here most of the time, not there. I missed the NARAL wars entirely. I had no idea that there was already a war simmering. I wrote my defense not long after Markos posted his ‘apology’. I wrote it without understanding the history.
Third, my defense was of Markos, and Armando, and PP. I tried to make it clear that I was talking about a larger issue than just the one Pie posting.
I think Markos would be wise to write a diary about this whole incident, and to offer some repentence for the pain he has caused. I hope he does. He was blasted by Meteor Blades and A gilas girl, and Armando. That should be all the prodding he needs to do some reflection on whether he made a mistake.
I won’t join in the bashing beyond what I’ve said. I’ll be waiting to see what he does.
I appreciate your willingness to have discussions about the advertisements on the site. I realize the ads are what pay the bills, but I think that it’s role is an important discussion to be had. Kudos.
the ad has disappeared and he is sorry:
seems to be “I disagree with some people”. Well, I will. I will part ways with members of the community on any number of issues. And sometimes, I won’t be diplomatic about it because, frankly, I don’t walk on egg shells.
I won’t apologize for that, nor will I censor myself to become “vanilla offend-no-one Markos”. Quite frankly, I don’t care if I offend people. When I do so unintentionally, then it bothers me (like I did by painting to broad a condemnation). Otherwise, it doesn’t bother me. It doesn’t bother me if John Kerry supporters think I’m a big meanie anti-Kerry asshole, it doesn’t bother me if some people think running that TBS ad is “non-progressive”.
We can agree to disagree, or not. Am I a big asshole? I can be. Am I PC? Hell no. Am I perfect? No. Do I apologize for any of that? No. Kos
[my emphasis].
The diary was about his not being all things to all people.
It’s not disappeared…
I didn’t know when I adblocked it once, that it would stay
blocked. Talk about living in my own little world.
Maybe because of MSNBC’s coverage?
I may be way off base, but I found slogging through the ‘welcome PW refugees’ diaries really cathartic. I lost count somewhere around 250 migrants from dKos. Of course, now is not the time – you should be in bed recovering in body and spirit, but maybe later….
#1 , #2 , #3
And – culled from posts over the last couple of days…
“I hope Catnip finds her way here… “
“I hope to see catnip here as well! “
“Catnip
I think she may already be a member here but rarely posts. If she isn’t someone should send her an invitation. “
“I have catnip’s email and was thinking of sending her an invite, but thought I could wait a few days, as she may need some space right now. Of course, I don’t think she knows me from Adam (what does that mean anyway??) so if someone else who knows her better would do it, it might mean more… “
“I dig the play-by-play diaries on Senate activities [though I hear rumor that Catnip is here now? What about lesliet? My 2 favorite transcribers 🙂 ] “
“Good to see you here and yes I think Catnip is a member but rarely posts.”
Yes, of course, it’s blatant ass-kissing on my part, but I was hoping it would cheer you up a little. Gentle hugs this time.
Actually, I do not need an explanation.Enuff is ENUFF, Enuff said.
You don’t need an explanation, just affirmation that you are right.
whoops, reply to went to the wrong place!
teehee
Ouch, kidney stones! Take care – lots of liquid. Yea, I spent a night in the hospital for those. Not fun.
I need an explanation why TBS placed the ad at dKos in the first place. Not exactly your target demographic. Maybe a trial run?
Someone wrote that the ad was also on Agonist, BUT with the difference that the powers that be asked if the ad offended and should it be removed.
Why is TBS placing their ad on liberal web sites?
Glad to see your name show up here. I was getting worried about our Canadian Friend. Sorry to hear about your health. I know you haven’t been feeling well at all lately. I was so sad yesterday to see the shit that went on over at Kos. However, here you are and I am looking forward to you blogging some of the Judges and Bolton Nominations and of course your valuable diaries. I am not in shock..just surprised.
I loved Dkos since day one. I guess it was because I felt that everyone was welcomed and there was no discrimination…The last few days it has been feeling like the old boys club…reminding me of how early on Bush said he was a uniter not a divider…The last thing our party should be doing right now is dividing it’s members…. Just remember that site has over 50 thousand people and it is much bigger than Kos. His leadership has been very shaky lately…I am hoping he will find his way. Welcome back…and do take care of yourself.
Please take better care of your health! Get your meds and your rest…blogging isn’t worth running yourself down! (the blogger says, looking at the clock realizing it is 3 hours past their own bedtime…)
That said, I just wanted to say thanks, because I also thought the latest ad, the one you describe, was a whole new low in offensiveness. I wasn’t as put out as some by the original ad; but I sure understood why people were upset, especially with Markos’ responses.
Then I saw that ad today and I just thought it was a slap in the face. A total, “I don’t give a shit about you people” statement.
I’m saying thanks because I was wondering if I was the only one who reacted the way I did.
To answer your question though – I don’t think the ad does any of the things you suggest that it should, like “promote the values of liberals and the Democratic Party”. Then again, I don’t think that ads on the site necessarily have to do that. However, from what I understand, Markos did not convey that message in a respectful manner at all, and then the new ad, IMO, pretty much crosses the line on its own. Given the context, there is no way he should have let that ad run, if he cared about how his members felt.
.
I wished the circumstances were quite different …
but it was about time you participated here somewhat again!
WELCOME
Many early newbies @ BooTrib had a bit thinner skin and migrated a few weeks sooner. Tranquility here is soothing for the soul and spirit, while getting the job done of political activism. Love ye all.
Oui aka @dKos as creve coeur and new creve coeur
Oui – Liberté – Egalité – Fraternité
Catnip,
So glad to see you here. Some time back, you had threatened to leave Over There, and I (was one of the ones who) talked you into staying.
Our gain for many weeks, but then I was feeling twinges of guilt after your GBCW diary, which was the first of the pie discussions I had read. Oh, my. In some ways it feels as if we’ve all fallen down Alice’s rabbit hole into the early ’70s.
Rest. Take care of yourself. Feel better.
Honestly I understand why the ad is upsetting. Frankly, I didn’t notice the ad myself, since I have learned to ignore these things except on My Yahoo where they leap out at you if you mouse over them. Although I am a hetero guy, that particular ad isn’t my thing.
I posted The Nation’s advertising policy in this message. Their policy statement, unlike Kos’ partially retracted rant, is at least a relatively calm and sane defense of advertising that readers may find offensive, rather than an apparent policy statement that readers find horribly offensive, which is what Kos produced. You don’t respond to upset readers by daring people to leave. Generally speaking, if you are a proprietor who sells ads, you are selling your readers’ eyeballs, so there are good business reasons for calm reactions, as opposed to “feel free to leave!”
Accepting potentially offensive ads finances the continued existence of the site. Of course you are free to disagree with that kind of position! One could argue, for example, that The Nation accepted an ad from FOX News but has never had ads that featured women objectified, etc. (Katha Pollitt would probably tear them a new one if that happened…)
If Kos had stuck to something along those lines, I doubt he would generated nearly the reaction he did. The ad’s stupid (as is the show, imho), but Markos’ reply to the ad’s critics was downright moronic.
I appreciated so much your posting of a far more typical advertising policy.
Advertising standards do not equal censorship!
For Kos to state that also was appalling, in part because it so diminishes the many incredible cases of censorship that real media heroes have fought for us.
Explanation? The explanation is that feminism is all washed up. Increasingly seen as a farce pursued by women who demand attention for themselves. And incidentally you demonstrated that very well didn’t you (collectively)? I think that’s the first time I’ve seen a group “goodbye cruel world” session on ANY board, and who else but the princesses would do it? Blimey! You’re so full of yourselves.
You don’t have any real issues. That’s the bottom line here. You’re like a limpet on the side of the liberal movements. Sitting around demanding honours for imagined sleights and everyone has to pretend to give you deference or there’s hell to pay. Pretend to take you seriously when you endlessly whine on about some trivia du jour. What a waste of time – and that’s what people are thinking about this storm in a teapot too. “Typical feminists”
Apparently Kos is a bit sick of it. Dare I say resentful? And he isn’t hiding it is he? I’m seeing it more and more on the left I am glad to say, although it’s very rare you’ll see anyone (like me here) actually articulating it like this, and if you do most likely a woman – seeing as how they are immune to the ubiquitous feminists charges of “misogynist!” or the idea that people with a penis can’t have a valid opinion about sexism.
As for what you can do about it… well you can join a feminist ghetto of course. Plenty of those around. Or else try to train the proprietor of a new board — is that what this ultimatum to Booman is about? Pretty blatant threat there. Good grief.
Look all this feminism is sexist and manipulative. It’s time to cut it out. It’s not all about you. Be a man. Find some real issues to concentrate on, swallow your pride and go back to dKos if that’s where you like to post. An apology would also be in order.
I thought you left on your own accord.
Way to step back in to the pond with both guns blazing.
Are you sincere? Or are just dropping by to cause dissension and perhaps, insult a few people?
Ah, another one of his trademarks – the misplaced demand for apology. Face it David: You’re a one-man victim cult. Which is ironic in light of your charges against feminism in general.
A shame, for were you not so thin-skinned, I might have enjoyed your contrarianism in spite of all disagreement.
That post was malicious, at best. I gave out my first real zero only after recalling his previous diatribes from a couple of months ago and revisiting that “discussion”. It’s clear to me that he is unable to communicate his views in a way that will foster good debate and learning from all sides. He should be banned immediately if he can’t show some respect. That’s all we ask around here and in society.
Or I could just be in a crabby mood because I cut myself shaving…
Considering he left on his own accord so long ago, this is obviously an attempt to stir things up during the new members’ transition. Test the waters to see if we have their backs. We do. And we will continue to. So let’s just ignore DB’s little side show and allow the fine people from Over There to heal and join.
(Bummer about the shaving incident – and good day to you for the remainder of your waking hours!)
Imagined slights? No issues?
Women do not get the same pay for the same work. That alone is a legitimate issue that shows there is still a places for feminism.
Anyone who claims any civil rights movement is “washed up” is likely to be part of the problem that makes civil rights movements so important. I may not agree 100% with those who got so angry about the pie issue, but I am proud to consider myself a feminist and I find your attitude pretty damned dumb.
Hi there! 🙂
Hi Catnip.
I’m glad you are here and hope you are feeling better soon.
As for BooMan, he has been amazingly open, conscientious, and responsive. I have no doubt that will continue. I think he has sought to create a community atmosphere that is sensitive to people differences. Among other things, he has actively sought women as front page posters, and look around — he has created an internationalist community.
And it works quite well.
Peace,
Fred
Hi Catnip!
I’m glad to see you hear because I enjoyed your postings at DKos and I hope to see them here. I can tell you that Booman is a very understanding and responsive person. As you have already noticed, he does respond to your emails unlike Markos. The people here are much more open and we can have great discussions without swearing at each other, trolling each other, etc. I haven’t posted many diaries but I was so pleased when I posted one on evolution and I rec’d responses from people all over the political spectrum. We were civil and open with each other and had fun while doing it.
Regarding the pie ad, I paid $40.00 for the Daily Kos subscription so that I wouldn’t have to see the ads and it would help with the Kos server costs. Markos has made some statements before the pie ad that I completely disagreed with. For example, he told all of the voter fraudsters to get the “blank” off his website. I just ignored him and went on making comments about the subject and read and recommeded all of the voter fraud diaries anyway. Markos is young and still needs to get his feet wet. He has made a lot of childish mistakes but I am hoping he will learn and grow along the way. He has a lot of talent and I love reading the diaries that other people have posted. As a matter of fact, I very rarely read the front page on DKos, I always go straight to my right hand side and read the guest diares.
there are a +lot+ of liberal blogs out there.
people’s time is limited. they choose to make contributions influenced by a variety of factors: sense of community, shared goals, etc.
i don’t think the arguement that the folks who were upset and who left are cutting off their noses to spite their faces is a very strong one. again, there are a lot of ways to work on progressive issues. kos’ site is not the be-all and end-all.
lurking for the most part, i was never quite enthusiastic to diary much, as i perceived a lot of signal to noise there (despite hordes of +excellent+ diaries).
when the “pussies, twats and bitches” diary was posted, i thought it was +long+ overdue (and i said so…i think i was one of the first to respond to that diary).
i find it ironic that what may be happening to the democratic party at a meta level with female voters (in general, individual takes on issues aside) appears to be happening at kos.
it’s disappointing when we cannot even agree to basic standards of civil discourse.
cheers —
He is really 34?! I had no idea. I thought he was just a young (well, 34 is still young) but really young kid that had some talent. Oh well, just goes to show how much I read his diaries or about him.
but I’m just too tired to talk about it. . . .
Although I’m just so happy to find you here, Catnip!
But down the roller-coaster again, I’m so sorry to hear what you’ve been going through. So that’s what the back pain was about. . . .
Hint from a sister sufferer, hit again by kidney stones recently after 40 years free (and after losing a kidney then!): ask your doc about the anti-oxidant diet. My nephrologist put me on it; he’s really up on this stuff as a specialist and on the national boards of such.
Also, it may be that calcium pills caused my return to the blinding pain that is beyond belief. I read the advice about midlife women taking calcium pills, so did so — not checking in with a nephrologist (not having needed one for years). It doesn’t seem to be good advice for the kidney problem-prone. . . .
I think Kos must be baiting us. I am disgusted that money again wins over good taste. But maybe Kos was a Gilligan’s Island addict… who knows..
I am against sexual exploitation however it rears it’s ugly head… but then having been raped I understand the ramifications of porn etc., But then who am I? just another woman-target…
I’m sorry to hear of your rape. I found myself thinking, over and over in those threads, about the reaction of women who have been raped — figuring that with at least 50,000 Kossacks, and with the recent survey that may mean about 20,000 women, and with the stats on the percentage of women who have been sexually assaulted (I use that term because it encompasses the terminology in all states as well as all degrees of attacks) . . . it must mean that many, many women on DKos had endured and survived rape, only to witness the virtual sexual assaults on women treated on a so-called “liberal” site.
And I nearly posted that — but did not do so because I feared the “frat boy” types would only pile on with comments that could make it even worse for you and others (including the many good men who have suffered with and helped women survivors of rape work through).
I am sorry for what happened to you before — and again on DKos. And I am sorry if I ought to have posted the thoughts above, after all, if it would have helped you and others.
raped and the whole thing inspired by some Humbert Humbert fanatasy. I had to live with my perpetrator until I left at 18. Words and images are powerful and they do change peoples behavior and thinking.
Me to…
it might be just a terrible coincidence. perhaps tbs can slide in a new image if it’s advertising the same content without any approval from kos.
but it’s decidedly ill-timed, and i’m disgusted it wasn’t pulled the moment it splashed on the page. just more petrol on the flames, and it did not lend kos any credibility.
right now, i can see +no+ ads at all (and i’m not a subscriber, and i don’t think my browser is blocking anything).
cheers —
Not that they belong together. My primary care doctor told me to avoid the oyster shell type of calcium pills because they can and have caused kidney stones.
Have you tried the ICY HOT patches for the pain? They might work for you, and they last a long time; they do have a medicinal smell, though.
Good to see you, Catnip. Feel better soon. I’m looking forward to reading your posts here.
Je suis content de te revoir ici…
Merci! 🙂
Hi, catnip! First, I’d like to say that it’s great to see you here, and I hope you feel better. I also thought from the beginning that Markos should have pulled the ad, just because I didn’t think it matched with the tenor of the site–maybe he’s shooting for more of a TBS crowd instead of a C-SPAN watching crowd.
I also think that the new ad is more explicit and overtly sexual than the original ad was, which probably won’t help the situation any. You could make an argument that keeping the ad shows a support for the freedom of (even unpopular) speech, but that’s a cop-out that you could make for any ad, and since Kos has declined ads in the past, that argument doesn’t apply. So I don’t think the ad itself does anything to promote liberal values. That is a high standard for an ad–maybe a better standard would be, does it do anything to erode liberal values.
However–I also think you might be reading too much into this new ad itself. Pardon me while I make a (likely meaningless) technical point.
I found this accusation to be bizarre–probably because I didn’t notice anything of the sort! But, upon closer inspection, sure enough, there’s a red blotch around the crotch area there. Good eyes, catnip! However… is that red blotch a piece of material? I had to go to the video tape for this one, and I don’t think it is. I think it’s probably one of the red flowers in the background. As to whether it was intentional on their part–I doubt it, but who knows? So feel free to blame Markos and TBS for many other things–but I feel that this accusation wouldn’t stick.
I haven’t seen this question answered, here or there, so maybe someone can help me:
Why did the ad change? Is it just set up to change the image every so often, or did someone have to change it?
I didn’t see anything in the first ad that I don’t see on TV or a billboard, so the ad itself never made me uncomfortable (my brain automatically screens out ads – I never would have SEEN it if not for the pie war).
This new one, though, is uncomfortably sexual for a political site.
Hi Catnip – Try Rhus Tox (homeopathy)!I remember reading and appreciating your writing at Kos. I wanted to keep reading both, Kos primarily for the news I can’t get on the SCLM. This morning however was the tipping point over there – Kos again defended his position by saying sites can’t be everthing to everyone. Agreed. But I’m not interested in reading a misogynisist’s blog and I’m starting to believe this is what he and many of his followers are.
Catnip, I’m glad you’re here. When I joined dkos I was tentative and shy after over 20 years of childrearing in a generally isolating atmosphere (much of it self-imposed I’ll admit) and, oddly, the people that initially kind of surrounded me with support were all “cats”…..catnip, catfish, Sally Cat. You made me feel more comfortable about venturing out, albeit via computer screen, and I feel I’ve grown because of it.
The thing about dkos now is that I wouldn’t feel comfortable enough anymore, in that climate, to post a diary that was the slightest bit emotional or women-centered….and that’s mostly what I used to do there because the community felt safe and accepting of stuff like that. I don’t think they know (or much care) that the ad, and the fifth-grade name calling that it spawned, has created an environment that is no longer welcoming for people like me.
BTW…I was formerly known as getmeoutofdixie. 🙂
Aha, that’s who you were in your previous cyberlife!
I liked your posts. Good to see you again.
I was reading Nonpartisan’s diary over at dKos this morning and half-way down the comments I saw the new, more explicit ad next to a comment by some guy rejoicing over “purging” whiners and hangin’ with the Kool Kids. The juxaposition of those too elements filled me with such revulsion I’m still gasping.
Someone is going to have to let me know when that ad is gone because I am not clicking on dKos until it is.
I boycotted TPM while he ran the Ann Coulter book ad and, you know, I hardly missed his input. Hey, whenever he did say something significant, Atrios usually quoted it. So, I figure if something really important happens at dKos then someone here will refer to it or cross-post. But, right now, I’d like Markos to see his click-count go down, down, down.
Catnip, I am very happy to see you here. I tried to send you an email after your diary, but it bounced.
I do not defend Kos. I will not post diaries or comments there…and sometimes that is difficult as I continue to follow the discussion. I do respect those who choose to stay and fight and wish them success. But, I am old and tired and have little patience with the younger set that truly doesn’t get it.
I wish I could explain how those ads were remotely appropriate for the site. Kos explains it in business terms; I would suggest that it is more an issue of power. Men and women do view power differently, though there is a wide range of variation in both sexes. Perhaps there is a diary in that.
“Kos explained it in a business sense.” My response to that is – “Are there no other paying ads he could have run?”
one that depicts “Maryanne” holding “Ginger” down while her carefully placed red piece of material suggests a penis she’s prepared to thrust into “Ginger”, I cannot, for the life of me, understand how anyone who believes in women’s rights and has been forgiving of kos can cosign that kind of depiction on a progressive, liberal site.
And if such an image appeared in “On Our Backs”?
I don’t see how you go from a spoof of catfights to a failure of progressive politics. Really, I don’t, so I guess I need an explanation, too.
You say you don’t want to bring the pie issue here, and then you do. You say your objection is to the treatment of the issue on KOS, and then you go back to the ad itself.
Let me explain what I mean by spoof. I saw the ad. It was over the top. It violated the laws of physics. I laughed, I cried, it was better than CATS. Not once did I take it seriously, and still can’t believe anyone else with frontal lobes would, either. You see, when you view a satire with half a brain, you’re going to get exactly the wrong message. I’ve seen this happen time and again, but it’s usually on the right where being dense, superstitious, and lockstep is considered a virtue.
This wasn’t for the macho crowd. It’s over their heads. But I guess it was over yours, too, even though I can’t see why. You don’t have to be sexless or prudish or anything else to object, so I’m not saying that. I lived through the 90s with a penis attached to me, so I’m familiar with those strawmen. No, all you have to do to miss the point is not pay attention, and then go back to performing your accustomed scripts.
KOS, in a truly crass way, indicated he was sick of that, and obviously so am I.
If you really are committed to marginalizing images that degrade women, I would think you could get behind something that makes a mockery of the whole “cat fight” phenomenon in American movies and TV. Mocking stereotypes isn’t the same thing as endorsing them, or should I assign “The Hollywood Shuffle” to some KKK conspiracy?
I thought it was obvious.
enough already, OK? This is not the time or the place for this.
A diary on this issue is not the time and place for this?
You have not expressed similar sentiments on this thread.
Your sig identifies you as a “proud member of the Pie War exodus.”
What is “this”? Where is the place? What is the time?
The time and the place for this was in the 4 days of mud-slinging at the other site.
At this point, a significant number of people here are trying to understand how we mis-read or ignored the signals from that site.
We really are only nominally irritated at the ad – I didn’t see it until yesterday. I don’t watch more than 4 hours of tv a week. It was the response to our objections that sent us packing.
No this is not the place…re-fighting the ad reasons is not what we are trying to do. We are trying to understand the betrayal from the self-proclaimed democrats on the other site.
In that case, I guess I would have to subscribe to that version of events in order to participate in this conversation, yes?
Or you could just . . . listen for a while first.
How many more days would make you happy?
You are hearing a lot of stuff, but your mind is putting up barriers to your understanding of the other side. You are immediately discrediting any point of view that you don’t agree with. I see it here and I’ve commented on it on Armando’s thread.
You are not really hearing or understanding because you don’t want to.
You are immediately discrediting any point of view that you don’t agree with.
And how, exactly, would you know that?
From your comment downthread, where you ask me to listen again, it’s clear you haven’t read what I said.
I don’t use the rating system to punish people I disagree with. So, I’m going to explain my 2 rating.
…can’t believe anyone else with frontal lobes would, either. You see, when you view a satire with half a brain, you’re going to get exactly the wrong message…It’s over their heads. But I guess it was over yours, too…
Calling people stupid because you can’t appreciate the point they’re making is cheap. I saw a lot of it during the pie wars, and so I left Daily Kos.
Images affect people. Words affect people. Sometimes that effect is emotional. That’s why there is such a science to it in advertising. A lot of people were upset by that ad. I wasn’t, but so what. I can respect it. If the ad, particularly the new image described in this diary, were posted on the wall in a place of business, a woman could sue for sexual harassment. It would be considered a “hostile workplace.” Context matters. If it were posted on CleanSheets, say, who would care? OK, so you don’t understand why people found it upsetting. Can’t you at least muster the respect to acknowledge their upset without insulting their intelligence?
it’s more than people usually do and I honestly appreciate it.
However, I think you’re way off base.
Calling people stupid because you can’t appreciate the point they’re making is cheap. I saw a lot of it during the pie wars, and so I left Daily Kos.
Indeed. Only that’s not what I did. I pointed out that the ad is a satire, and that satires misread don’t just lead to garbled interpretations, they lead to opposite interpretations. I do stupid things, you do stupid things, we do stupid things, koo koo ge-fucking choo.
I reserve the right, in any discourse, to point out that someone’s barking up the wrong tree. Making fun of images that are degrading to women is a great way to get people to think about images that are degrading to women.
Running away is not.
But I thought it wasn’t the ad that people found upsetting? Which is it?
No, KOS set it off up front with an asinine comment that refers to a genuine problem (below). In fact, the response he got showed him to be something of a prophet on the issue.
Let me give you another example. Years ago, a local guitar shop in my hometown put a TV add together, which was a big deal for such a small operation. The guys at the store, propeller-heads who worked with the electronic angle of things, were used to working with heavy metal types (oops, I guess I just dated this story), and everything that that comes with.
So, they decided to make fun of heavy metal videos. They hired a curvaceous young woman and had her cavort with phallic guitars and monolithic stacks of amplifiers in a way that, they were convinced, was so over the top that people would get the joke.
Guess who didn’t?
Guess who didn’t get it even after it was explained?
Guess who continued to perform their political scripts even after it had been pointed out to them that they were barking up the wrong tree?
Their phone rang off the hook with people who weren’t just angry and political. They were obtuse. Obtuseness, apparently, was necessary to maintain the basis for their outrage (and outrage, apparently, was the objective, since it persisted even in the actual absense of the putative outrage).
See, this is what I “get.” Ideologues can go psychotic on you. When they do so, they provide lots of juicy material for the opposition, usually by living down to the stereotypes the opposition has of them.
While y’all may be upset that this ad (supposedly) perpetuates stereotypes of women, the rest of us are upset that you’ve lived down to Limbaugh’s stereotype of liberals, not to mention chauvinistic stereotypes of women.
So, I guess we’re talking past each other. Just like a satire.
I pointed out that the ad is a satire, and that satires misread don’t just lead to garbled interpretations
Humor is a highly subjective thing. It would certainly not be the first time something meant satirically touched a nerve because it played into sensitive issues. Further, the image that appeared on the page, was too out of context to determine its meaning or intent readily.
Images are very powerful. They are evocative. That’s the point of using them in advertising. And as a “sender” one needs to know that the “receiver” will see them through the filter their own experiences, emotions, and beliefs. And visuals are non-linear making their processing even more complex.
Making fun of images that are degrading to women is a great way to get people to think about images that are degrading to women.
It’s also apparently a great way to provide titillating content. I read a lot of comments from men about how they had every right enjoy their chubby, looking at that ad. So, satire, was it?
But I thought it wasn’t the ad that people found upsetting? Which is it?
It’s both. Which lobe do you need to access to grok that? A number of people found the ad upsetting. Many, like myself, did not, but were upset by Kos’s (and others’) rude dismissal of their upset. See, we’re not talking about one person, or one monolithic feminist entity. We’re talking about a large number of people, of both genders, who had varied responses and reasons for their disgust. So, black and white thinking won’t work, in this context.
And we are definitely talking past each other, because the only things I read, that put me in mind of Limbaugh, came from men dismissing all us silly feminists.
Humor is a highly subjective thing. It would certainly not be the first time something meant satirically touched a nerve because it played into sensitive issues. Further, the image that appeared on the page, was too out of context to determine its meaning or intent readily.
How much more over the top did it have to be? Did we need someone to start a bar fight and then have a plane load of Hollywood fake Indians parachute into a rumbling herd of Elvis impersonators and …
OK, I admit it. I’m at a loss.
It’s also apparently a great way to provide titillating content. I read a lot of comments from men about how they had every right enjoy their chubby, looking at that ad. So, satire, was it?
That was not only stupid, RK, it was offensive. Still, you don’t see me fleeing from this site…
It’s both. Which lobe do you need to access to grok that?
The temporal one, if I may make a bad pun!
I meant that people were first upset at KOS’ comments. The ad was secondary. And then it seemed to become primary. I keep being told it’s not about the ad, even in a diary where the ad is mentioned.
So, if there’s a lobe that’ll explain that bit of contradiction, please tell me.
See, we’re not talking about one person, or one monolithic feminist entity.
No, we’re not. At least I never was.
And we are definitely talking past each other, because the only things I read, that put me in mind of Limbaugh, came from men dismissing all us silly feminists.
Or women living down to the stereotype of being petulant and running away at the first sign of trouble, which was my point.
That said, I work with feminists, by which I mean feminist scholars. I take them very seriously. People who throw around the word “feminist,” … not so much.
the viewer’s reaction does NOT determine the sender’s intent
No, but it does impact how the sender will express that intent. I’ve worked in both advertising and publicity, and I can tell you that it very much does. Advertising images are designed to elicit a response. If they do not get the desired response, advertisers go back to the drawing board. Kos even said that the conflict generated more click-throughs, so I think it’s safe to say that it got a “desirable” response. Yes, that’s right. A lot of these things are designed to generate conflict. They are designed to trigger emotions. That is true of any media. If the sender is not getting the desired response the message will be reworked until it does. That is the nature of communication. If a tree falls in the woods, etc.
you really need to come to grips with your disgust for male sexuality
Well, now, there’s an offensive assumption. I happen to be married to a highly sexual man, whose sexuality I quite enjoy, thank you very much. I have no problem with his vast pornography collection, and he has learned that accept that I have the one and only issue of Playgirl that showed an erect penis (Type O’Negative’s Pete Steele, if you’re interested) in a plastic sleeve for it’s protection. Not a lot of good, heterosexual cock shots produced for women, so I treasure the ones I have. So, if I had a website and I put up images of men touching themselves, because that is something I quite enjoy, but it was done in a “satirical” way, I should just ignore the discomfort that might cause whatever men are offended by it and tell them they aren’t using their brain capacity properly? How about some homo-erotic images of men. Damn, some of those are HOT. I’m sure all those healthy, heterosexual men would find that totally acceptable, and those who don’t, well they should just lighten up, right?
So, let me get this straight. It was satire, so whatever salacious content women read into it, which triggered their feelings of unsafety is ludicrous. But that whatever salacious intent men read into it, thereby experiencing arousal, is fine and dandy. Men’s emotional responses=good. Women’s emotional responses=bad. Nice.
I work with feminists, by which I mean feminist scholars. I take them very seriously. People who throw around the word “feminist,” … not so much.
I see. So, now YOU are the arbiter of what constitutes feminism, not the women who choose to define themselves that way. You get to label me. I don’t get to define myself.
Or women living down to the stereotype of being petulant and running away at the first sign of trouble, which was my point.
For the record, I did not leave at the first sign of trouble. I stayed through the slaps at NARAL and “single issues” and through many gender politics conflicts. I left when it became clear that I was talking to brick walls, and that I did not feel like providing the content or page-views for a non-progressive, Dem Party insider who thinks the things that matter to me are not “important.”
So every image so reliably elicits the desired response that said response can be used to determine intent? I’m unconvinced the world is so simple, but that’s my background talking (cultural and religious history), and the material I work with routinely shows that similar groups with similar signs get VERY different messages. For instance:
It was satire, so whatever salacious content women read into it, which triggered their feelings of unsafety is ludicrous. But that whatever salacious intent men read into it, thereby experiencing arousal, is fine and dandy. Men’s emotional responses=good. Women’s emotional responses=bad. Nice.
Yes, nicely done. A perfect example of infecting my words with your meaning so you can bitch about them. I know it well, having survived the early 90s as a penis-bearing entity. YOU cited the male sexual response as a sign that something wrong was happening, so deal with it. And here, you’ve repeated it, albeit with a victim-pose twist. Whatever.
Yes, men and women can respond very differently to the same image. Didn’t you learn that in advertising? It’s a satire. It also uses some pretty stimulating shots, but then that’s what it’s satirizing, now isn’t it? As to your scenario, any man objecting to such content has his own problems, which are not your problems unless you’re fucking them, so knock yourself out, I’d love to see the male equivalent.
[BTW: just what constitutes a “good, heterosexual cock shot”? Something unshaved?]
As for “feminist,” the term is abused. I reserve the right to use words properly, regardless. You are free to call yourself an amphibian until PATRIOT II passes.
I understand and respect your reasons for leaving KOS, but you’re something of a brick wall yourself, so there may have been more to that story.
The Texan (what is it about you Texans that I find so annoying?) wrote: “I understand and respect your reasons for leaving KOS, but you’re something of a brick wall yourself, so there may have been more to that story. “
Translation: I understand and respect you, even tho’ you’re so stupid that talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.
In other words, Recordkeeper’s stupid because she stuck by her guns and didn’t cave into your position. But you “understand” her point of view (no, you don’t) and “respect” her reasons (no, you don’t, you called her a brick wall, hardly a term of flattery).
I was called “stupid” at DKos, too, for refusing to submit to the alpha chimps and let them play with their bananas and ogle all the coconuts they wanted. Granted, you are a bit more locquacious and artful in your choice of words than some of the knuckle-draggers I dealt with on the “Pie Fight” diary, but your true attitudes are still quite clear.
Translation: I understand and respect you, even tho’ you’re so stupid that talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.
…by infecting my words with your meaning so you can bitch about them.
In fact, that seems to be what’s at the bottom of this whole phenomenon, isn’t it?
Read the post again.
Or not.
Step Two: After insulting Recordkeeper as too obtuse to understand reality, the Texan (again, what is it about you Texans?) proceeds to state that I, Shadowthief, haven’t the reading ability nor mental capacity to understand what he really said.
Oh, I understood it 100%, loud and clear.
For your information: I’m 42 years old, but I read at a 43 year old level. And I’m through responding to your posts; I can see that there is absolutely no point in engaging in an argument with you.
YOU cited the male sexual response as a sign that something wrong was happening, so deal with it.
Wrong. I cited it as an example that it was producing emotional responses and that those reactions were, very much, in the eye of the beholder. You disparaged the threat response experienced by many women as wrong, because the ad was satirical. I am simply pointing out that the fact that it is satire does not diminish the visceral nature of sexual images. Those images affect people differently. It is you who is putting value judgments on those responses, not me.
So every image so reliably elicits the desired response that said response can be used to determine intent? I’m unconvinced the world is so simple, but that’s my background talking (cultural and religious history), and the material I work with routinely shows that similar groups with similar signs get VERY different messages.
Of course those responses are varied, but an advertiser will look to the aggregate response. Quite simply, does it sell?
BTW: just what constitutes a “good, heterosexual cock shot”? Something unshaved?
Something other than obviously gay men with soft-ons in completely de-sexualized visual contexts — in other words Playgirl. (yawn)
Brick wall? I think not. I just don’t agree with you, but I have managed to converse with you without ad hominem attacks and insults. I wish the same could be said of you, and of the many abusive voices I encountered and observed on DK.
it’s because I took offense. You can’t throw out a few petulant straw men and not expect the temperature to climb, so please: high horse, dis-MOUNT!
Thank you.
Is it only other people who can be brick walls? You introduced that metaphor, and I suggested you look in the mirror. Having said that, I’ll leave you to it. You either will or you won’t.
If people agreed with me, I’d be bored. But when people repeatedly miss the point, I have to wonder what’s going on in there.
But when people repeatedly miss the point, I have to wonder what’s going on in there.
Physician heal thyself.
Not really sure what I’m missing, there.
says it all.
if that’s all there was you could have saved us some time!
Rather than tendentiously arguing that men’s sexual responses to the stupid ad somehow proved its sinister intent (which you used to avoid the whole spoof issue and dumb the conversation down to some vacuous whining about insulting people’s alleged intelligence), or drawing strained comparisons between KOS’ front page and some hypothetical workplace, or confusing the clickthrough on the controversy with the titillation derived from the thing itself (see above), or re-stuffing the strawman about women’s and men’s emotional responses (while the internet’s tiniest virtual violin screeches on), or claiming that I have set myself up as the arbiter of anything simply because I won’t join you in your abuse of the English language, or complaining about how everyone is a brick wall except you, you could have saved the internets the whole ill argued pile of nonsense and just told me it was all about feelings.
‘Cause that says it “all.”
Who knew there was so little to it “all.”
Dude, the window to your psyche is wide open, and I wish to God you’d shut the blinds. It is an interesting style of argument: anything you disagree with is stupid, whiny, vacuous, petulant, nonsense, and just too emotional. I have created no strawmen. We could talk about yours, if you like. Like your assertion that my mention of male erections is an attack on male sexuality. (Profiting on the images of women in sexual contexts, however, is inert, in your world.) That you cannot see the glaring contradictions in your own argument — that some women took offense at the sexual content of an ad, is silly, because it was satirical, even though the content was sexually charged enough that many men found it arousing — is a sad commentary. I can see that it does not matter how patiently I address your ill-formed arguments. To you everything I say is a lot shrill hysteria signifying nothing. So, I will waste no further energy. I’m sure you will want to get the last word, so by all means, knock yourself out.
“So, if I had a website and I put up images of men touching themselves, because that is something I quite enjoy, but it was done in a ‘satirical’ way, I should just ignore the discomfort that might cause whatever men are offended by it and tell them they aren’t using their brain capacity properly?”
Let’s see an ad for “Bend Over Boyfriend”, and see if the men are so open-minded.
I’m not running away. I’m actually taking a more active interest in gender issues than before.
I’m simply not doing so on DailyKos. Because this is the final straw, and I don’t want kos profiting from my pageviews anymore. I don’t care how small the effect of my choice is is, I simply don’t want to be part of it. I have chosen to stand up and say “Gender Issues Matter”. How is that running away?
Let me repeat this again, in case you didn’t hear: It’s not the ad. The ad, while offensive, is the kind of offensive women have to deal with every day, for better or for worse. The issue is kos’ refusal to do anything about the ad and, in fact, to belittle and demean the people who saw fit to complain about its (thoroughly inappropriate, IMNSHO) placement on a political site. The issue is this in the context of kos’ general hostility towards “women’s issues”, which he seems determined to shove off the Democratic party platform. The issue is the unrestrained feminist-bashing that resulted from his post, and others, which he either supports or doesn’t care about.
In short, I’ll practice progressive politics somewhere else, where I won’t be expected to toe the Party Line, whatever that is, and ridiculed when I don’t. I hope Booman Tribune can be that place – and so far, the atmosphere here is much more pleasant than the atmosphere at kos ever was – and I had a UID in the low thousands there.
And if standing for something makes me an ideologue… So be it.
Okay, it didn’t bother you. It didn’t bother me,either. So there, we have something in common. But, as you may have read about a thousand times on this site and on Kos, it’s not about the ad, it’s not about the ad, it’s not about the ad. What is it about the phrase “it’s not about the ad” that makes you think it’s about the ad? And please don’t ask me or anybody else to explain to you what it is about–those explanations are all over the web right now. Do your own reading.
But back to the ad, which this issue is not all about. It did bother some people, some of them men, some of them women. Is it not okay for people to be offended by things that don’t bother you? Must everybody react to everything as you do? Does the fact that they were offended make them “dense,” give them “half a brain,” remove their frontal lobes, or make them superstitious? I don’t know. I kinda I doubt it. The people who actually objected to the ad seem like pretty smart people to me in other contexts and on other subjects, smart enough to make me wonder if they saw something that you and I didn’t.
In fact, I now think they did see something we didn’t. What I’ve learned. . .because I listened to them instead of hating them because they had the audacity to be offended by something that didn’t bother me (the nerve!). . .is that they recognized that dKos is an open space for both men and women who come together to talk and act on things of importance to us and that if it was a literal room where all of us hung out as actual physical human beings, we probably wouldn’t hang a poster with that picture on the wall. The men, even though they might really like the photograph, would realize it wasn’t a thoughtful to do.
I understood that point of view better when the second ad came up and a bare butt was in my face. I realized I wouldn’t want to work in an office where I had to walk past that all the time.
You may disagree with that, but that’s okay, because it wasn’t about the ad, it wasn’t about the ad, it wasn’t about the ad.
I don’t know why you’re so mad at people just because something offends them. That’s their business, isn’t it? They have a right to say so. You have a right to say that you’re offended by the fact and/or way they took offense. Okay, you’ve said it. Kos was pissed. He said it. We’ve all heard each other loud and clear, although I don’t see any sign in your comment that you listened.
You say they/we should go back to their “script,” but it seems like it’s your script you want everybody to follow. No thanks–I don’t like your dialogue.
the diarist brings up the add again?
Is that what will bring in women voters?
…
Otherwise, I would never (believe me) never have brought it up on catnip’s diary.
Is it not okay for people to be offended by things that don’t bother you?
I never set myself up as the arbiter of feelings. But I can tell excrement from shoe polish. Freaking out about what something isn’t is a waste of time.
In fact, I now think they did see something we didn’t.
This would be one of those places where we agree again, though I explain this phenomenon differently.
they recognized that dKos is an open space for both men and women who come together to talk and act on things of importance to us and that if it was a literal room where all of us hung out as actual physical human beings, we probably wouldn’t hang a poster with that picture on the wall
The internet is also a place we say things we wouldn’t say in person, so I’m not sure how useful this comparison is.
I do know, however, that there have been many heated discussion on KOS. This is the only one that’s led to a mass exodus to a new site (a new site, moreover, that is now under pressure to conform to the perceptions of the arriving refugees).
That is sad.
don’t know why you’re so mad at people just because something offends them. That’s their business, isn’t it?
Mad? Who said I’m mad? What does it matter? I’m not the one claiming that my emotional responses constitute an entitlement. Just for the record: I’m merely disappointed.
And you clearly missed what I meant by “script.” I’m not holding anyone to a narrative, just to an epistemological standard. If that dialogue’s not for you, well at least you’re honest.
I can see why you brought up the ad.
Of course you’re the expert on your own feelings, but man, it’s hard to believe you’re not angry. If you’re truly not, do you see how angry you come across? Where I come from, which isn’t so far away from Texas, throwing insults usually means somebody’s angry. You ask why it matters? It only matters if we’re sincerely trying to talk to each other and then feelings and perceptions do matter. If we’re not, then you’re right, your emotional state, or mine, and how it is perceived doesn’t matter.
The fact that the internet is a place where people say things they wouldn’t say in person is true. . .but not for everybody. I try not to say things I wouldn’t say unless I was looking you in the eye.
Is it sad? Some people are feeling that way, for sure. You’re one of them. I sympathize. But me? Not so much. Change happens. dKos will get to be more of what it seems to want to be, with less resistance, and those of us who aren’t enjoying that will get to participate in blogs that are more along the lines what we’re looking for.
I did just get angry a second ago, but that was with another poster.
No, I know I come across as angry. I also know that reading tone on the internet is a lost cause, so I don’t care.
I am sincere on KOS in the sense that I am honest. My feelings aren’t central. That said, I’ve flamed people there who I thought were being dishonest or who were simply trolls.
I guess I just don’t make decisions with my feelings (outside of my personal life). KOS is a political tool. If some members of the KOS community need a lounge or whatever, that’s great. But that’s not how this started, is it? KOS said he was going to get into trouble with a certain element (and he said it like an asshole), and then PRESTO! He was right.
So, I return to my first comment on this kerfuffle: this whole thing is comically stupid. The more I look for substance on this issue, the less I find.
we’re probably all going to laugh about this. Over beer, preferably.
I do get it that this whole thing seems substanceless to you. And I’m pretty sure you get it that it does have substance to some of the rest of us.
I don’t know about you, but I think that you and I did pretty well talking here even if we’re still almost at the same points we were when we started. At least we didn’t throw anything at each other. Of such small conversations are strong Democratic coalitions built, perhaps.
The reason we’re still holding hands and strolling through the fragrant gardens of polite discourse, my dear Kansas, is that I’ve always felt that aggressiveness is a mirror you hold up to your interlocutor (and apparently you feel the same).
Perhaps “substance” was too metaphorical. No, it clearly was. You see, I can see people getting het up about the pie thing, I just can’t see
So, I guess what I mean by “substance” is what exactly has KOS done that hurt any of the concerns people are claiming to care about here? It seems that our community has been thrown out with the bathwater.
Then again, I cut my teeth at Eschaton, so I guess I expect a lot of rough and tumble. But the regulars there always seem to patch it up again, somehow.
Why has this thing, whatever it is, led to such a strong reaction that has the potential to damage what people were claiming they valued? When did us progressives get so powerful that we could start carving ourselves up?
I do indeed agree about that mirror and I’ve been pondering that in regard to the whole kerfluffle, as I think you called it. (One of my favorite words, kerfluffle, right up there with brouhaha. And “het up”! I haven’t heard that since the last time I was in. . .Texas.) I’ve been thinking, who’s projecting what onto whom? Goes both ways, I’m sure. But that’s a whole other conversation.
Anyway. . you had a point and I’m strolling up to it, I swear.
I hope you won’t ask me to document this and will just believe me when I say that. . .right or wrong. . .a lot of us women (and always, some men), had been seeing what we believed to be a pattern on dKos of dismissing what are usually called women’s issues. (Part of the prob is that we don’t see them that way, we see them as human, world-wide incredibly important issues that affect everybody, so even using the term “women’s issues” becomes a form of dismissal. And yes, I know we’re inconsistent about the use, ourselves. Language is not easy.) Then came Kos’s apology which was was read as insulting and dismissive and became a last straw phenomenon for many.
There’s no accounting for perceptions, right?
So. . .let’s say you are on a website that you like a lot, but for some reason you keep getting the feeling that a lot of the people on that site don’t have your best interests in mind. They may think they do. (I think this is important to say.) They may have priorities that they believe include you and will help you. You give them credit for sincerity. You give them credit for intelligence. You know they have a right to their own way of setting priorities for action. But. . .you still feel like you don’t really belong. You feel as if a fair number of them wish you would go away, because you bring up things that bore them to death.
So, what do you do? Well, maybe you stick around, nothing wrong with that. But maybe, something happens that pisses you off just enough to force you out into the blogworld and you discover–hot damn!–another blog, or even several blogs, that do all of the good things that first one did, but more. . .they also share your priorities in life.
That’s a version of what happened to me. And since we’re having this conversation, I’ll tell you something. You know how I thought you were angry? And how you said you really weren’t? A lot of what I read on Kos comes across as anger to me and I justget really tired of it. It may be that a lot of posters are, by nature, just more aggressive than I am, and what I read as fury they would only say was bluntness. For instance, I would never get in a real argument with Armando. I literally don’t know how to talk to somebody with that conversational style. I would be constantly stepping into cowpies I hadn’t seen ahead of me. No fun. Or at least, not for me.
Different strokes, in other words. Over here I get to talk about the same things I did over there, but there’s a feeling of peace and courtesy that I just didn’t feel over there. I understand that’s not important to a lot of people, but it is to me.
So what does it boil down to? A lot of us were increasingly unhappy and restless over there. . .a tempest blew up that brought all those feelings to a head. . .and we got lucky and found places to go where we fit in better.
I know I didn’t explain this in any kind of political or philosophical way. I just did the best I could to tell you about it from my point of view.
Jeez, you’d never know it but I have a job I need to work at. Damn, this internet thing is too much fun.
I hope you won’t ask me to document this and will just believe me when I say that. . .right or wrong. . .a lot of us women (and always, some men), had been seeing what we believed to be a pattern on dKos of dismissing what are usually called women’s issues.
Well, this is going to sound nasty and personal, but when the whole thing broke out my second thought (my first one being “dude! uncool!”) was to wonder about KOS’ background. What attitudes toward women did he experience growing up?
Part of the prob is that we don’t see them that way, we see them as human, world-wide incredibly important issues that affect everybody
Maybe that’s because they do?
Then came Kos’s apology which was was read as insulting and dismissive and became a last straw phenomenon for many.
Yeah. Having dreaded that response, he got that response. I’m not surprised he didn’t capitulate, as much as I think he brought this on himself.
So. . .let’s say you are on a website … You feel as if a fair number of them wish you would go away, because you bring up things that bore them to death.
Ever wonder why?
But maybe, something happens that pisses you off just enough to force you out into the blogworld and you discover–hot damn!–another blog, or even several blogs, that do all of the good things that first one did, but more. . .they also share your priorities in life.
Yay, us! Or … you! Nevermind. Yeah, I know what you mean.
A lot of what I read on Kos comes across as anger to me and I justget really tired of it. It may be that a lot of posters are, by nature, just more aggressive than I am, and what I read as fury they would only say was bluntness.
Yeah. It’s an angry site. These are scary times.
For instance, I would never get in a real argument with Armando. I literally don’t know how to talk to somebody with that conversational style.
What? You mean half Zen-master, half strung-out drag queen? Yeah.
I would be constantly stepping into cowpies I hadn’t seen ahead of me. No fun. Or at least, not for me.
Precisely my experience dealing with the ExoKOS crowd.
So what does it boil down to? A lot of us were increasingly unhappy and restless over there. . .a tempest blew up that brought all those feelings to a head. . .and we got lucky and found places to go where we fit in better.
I know I didn’t explain this in any kind of political or philosophical way. I just did the best I could to tell you about it from my point of view.
Thanks for taking the time to explain your experience of this to me, you’ve really changed my big picture. I’ve discovered new sites and people as a result of this, although much of the contact has been unpleasant.
Precisely my experience dealing with the ExoKOS crowd.
Yeah, I’ll bet. Wow, we need cowpie trail guides.
Thanks to you, too, GMT. I really hope some of your next experiences on these other sites will be more enjoyable, or at least less unpleasant. I’ve really enjoyed talking to you.
Your comment is perfect!
Is it not okay for people to be offended by things that don’t bother you? Must everybody react to everything as you do?
I am so sick of people saying they weren’t bothered by it, why should you be?
Thank you!
Please listen to that, GMT.
I’m joining with the troll-rating. 3 or 4 posts like you have done wouldn’t have aggravated me. But you just couldn’t let it go.
I’m just taking a bit of time to read through the comments here and I will definitely try to respond to yours today.
But I wanted to welcome you here, and say how truly glad I am to hear your virtual voice again.
Many others have expressed their feelings more eloquently than I possibly can, so I’ll keep this post to a simple ‘Welcome, and feel better!’.
I am so sorry about your illness! I send warm healing thoughts and prayers your way. Even my husband says that the loss of your voice over there is a profound loss, and that there are more than a few people over there who are obviously giant stupid asses (this is my husband’s view). My explanation is that Kos and a bunch of guys over there are high on success. Sometimes success sucks……the work suffers. We all have a tendency to be self absorbed and selfish, that is human. What is disfunctional is when someone points it out and they get told to “F” off. It is particularly disfunctional when so many more than just one voice express the same need and they are jointly told to “F” off. For so many to need it, it must be out there on the spectrum of human needs as something leggit. My highly professional opinion is that they are bunch of assholes high on their own reflection.
Catnip, take care of yourself. Your health is more important than any blog.
I don’t have any answers for you either. I wasn’t offended by the first ad, although the second ad was too much. I was offended by Kos’ dismissive attitude and lack of understanding why some people (not just women) would be offended and his essentially validating the frat boys on the site.
I had been becoming disillusioned with dKos for sometime (quality of content had severely gone downhill) and this episode was the last straw. Now I lurk at dKos and watch with more skeptical eyes and each day I’m liking less what I see. Except for Saturday Morning Garden Blogging. 🙂 But maybe we can start something like that here.
Some people think that the women who left dKos are like kids picking up their toys and running away, but I don’t see it as that. We are leaving because dKos is no longer a safe playground. Too many thugs and bullies who want to steal our lunch money and beat us up. What kind of place is that for us? Don’t know about you, but I’m too old for that kind of shit and have enough self-esteem to not have to put up with it.
I tried to stay relaxed about this, and I haven’t “left” Dkos altogether, but i have stopped listening to Markos. It’s a shame when someone had the potential for rising to greatness and instead chose to be petty and whiney. Yeah, you’ve got free speach – it’s your blog, say what you want, sell ads to who you want, but don’t expect not to be judged on the content (or lack therof) of what you post.
I agree with one of the posts I saw further down. I deal with enough shit “out there” in the real world. When I come home, I don’t want to have shit thrown at me.
Dkos was a kind of home. In a true community, when a good portion of the folks say “I have a problem with X, let’s discuss”, you don’t say “Love it or leave it!” and slam the door. That’s exactly the knee-jerk mentality I though we were fighting against.
The last straw for me was the reposting of Atrios’ list of “This Blog is…” . Y’know, I visit Eschaton. But it’s not a community. Those rules are great over there – it really is a one-man band, guest bloggers aside. But I though Markos was trying to create something different. I though he was trying to create an intential community, not just a “blog about the Democratic Party, electoral politics and Iraq. Period”. If that’s all he wants his blog to be? Fine.
But he just lost major points. He payed lip service to creating community, but when the shit hit the fan, he acted less like a leader and more like the new-style macho asshole that bloggers always get accused of being. Way to reinforce the stereotype.
It’s not the ad
It’s not the ad
It’s not the ad… infinitum
For me it’s the dismissal of us “uppity PC prude hags”. The “you don’t like it? then shut the fuck up” attitude I am seeing more and more over there.
No room for discussion or debate for a community of communicators… just a (we care about the important shitm the manly shit none of this girly girl stuff) followed by copious amounts of sexism.
BUT… there are alot of other people there that are just as upset. Men and Women. Which gives me hope.
In no way can anyone close to me call me a prude or an easily offended person… but what offends me is the lack of discussion or concern for a large part of the community and instead a complete Shut the Fuck Up Girls.
Also I don’t care for the label of “femminist” because I happen to think people should discuss matters instead of “big daddy has spoken” crap.
I’m a Humanist, first and foremost.
They can’t put up an “equally insulting” ad regarding men because… well that type of shit isn’t tolerated by society. I was trying to think of an ad that men would be insulted by and… I couldn’t. Women have always had to put up with the insults.
I could live with or without the ad itself. Personally it wasn’t appropriate for a site that is dealing with progressive issues and is empowered by the same women that are FIGHTING for a better world. I will not live with the attitude shared there that I should just shut the fuck up.
Very sad day again.
Catnip – I am one of the many heartbroken at you leaving DK – and I really thought it would be a long time before the opportunity to hear from you and read your words would happen again. Glad you are here! Sorry to hear about the latest health woes – please take good care.
I won’t repost what I posted there, but throughout your whole ordeal – online and offline – please know in your heart how much good and fun and love you have contributed to so many lives. Looking forward to more!
When you feel a media outlet is running something offensive, you have the right to protest. If the proprietor is unresponsive or tells you to “stick it”, then you stop patronizing that outlet. That is the way the marketplace works, and you followed that model. Good for you.
I think your larger concern is how this reflects on liberals in general given the status dKos has acheived with its enormous readership and postings by congressmen and women. I think Kos failed, and continues to fail, to recognize that his site really has become far more than the little site it started as. His latest post actually says:
Notice that he says “I cannot be everything to everyone;” he really seems unable to seperate the blog from himself. He doesn’t get it that dKos has already become “the EVERYTHING site” for the left whether he likes it or not. His site has evolved way passed any kind of niche status and I suspect he does get overwhelmed sometimes. But I also think he loves the status his site has acheived, and should recognize that he can’t have it both ways. He does have a responsibility to the left as a whole and he should be responsive to his “community.” I wish he understood that.
It really is too bad that something like this had to happen. It could have been avoided in the first place. At least you found a new home. Welcome.
Kos says his only issues are:
(1) The Netroots (i.e., building up his own blogging business);
(2) Iraq (in other words, put the Democrats in charge so they can better manage the Iraq occupation);
(3) Electoral issues (mechanisms, which are important, but are worthless if divorced from issues that speak to people).
Sorry for the cynical interpretation, but that’s how I see it.
What Kos is not interested in (or what he specifically didn’t mention):
(1)Civil rights and civil liberties;
(2)Feminism;
(3)Environmentalism;
(4)International issues (except Iraq);
(5)Working class economic issues;
(6)Everything else.
In other words–not much of a substantive agenda. He’s not interested in promoting any of these? How the hell does he expect to be an advocate for the Democratic Party taking back power without advocating at least #5 (economic issues)? I don’t get it.
Thomas Frank made it quite clear in his book “What’s the Matter with Kansas?” that the GOP have triumphed because of “faux populism” that gets the working class to vote against their own economic interests by appealing to them on “social issues”. This is possible, Frank makes clear, because Democrats don’t speak the language of class warfare and don’t advocate heavily on economic issues–what the Democrats need to counterbalance Republican “faux populism” is real, old-fashioned economic populism.
It doesn’t take a genius to see this; even I see it, ad I’m no genius. The very limited agenda of Kos means that is blog is supposed to be an “insider” website concerned with wonky stuff like exit polls in Ohio and keeping Congress from regulating blogs.
It sounds awfully boring, to tell you the truth–suffocating in the self-limitation Kos has placed on his site. True, the diaries can always explore any issue, but for Kos to say that none of the substantive areas I listed will ever get front-page diary status says everything I need to know about that site!
I’m not sure he says those issues will never get front page status, just that he will not be the one writing it. Plus, I have seen him post on subjects far outside the narrow scope he cited, so I think he is “disassembling” a bit. I often enjoy the other front pagers far more than I do Kos, anyway.
My point was that the sheer size and the fact that Senators and Reps are now posting there gives dKos a status, importance, and a scope far beyond what Markos pretends. That means he has a responsibility he is not willing to live up to. I think the site has outgrown him. It’s too bad, because it really could be a very powerful tool.
I think the site has outgrown him. It’s too bad…
Could not have put it better! You said a mouthful.
We call that an unserviced niche…..and this is a rather large unserviced niche. Providing service to this niche can have many payoffs.
I’m not a marketeer, nor a profiteer, nor even one of the Three Musketeers.
However–you are dead on centre with your remark, because if Kos doesn’t want to put these very crucial issues front and centre, other blogs will.
And I predict those other blogs will attract far more attention than DKos in the long run–and even if they’re not as popular, popularity isn’t EVERYTHING.
Seriousness of purpose counts as well. What has a larger circulation, the Christian Science Monitor or the National Enquirer? The National Enquirer. 71,000 for CSM v. 2,760,000 for the National Enquirer.
Which newspaper is taken seriously, quoted by other sources, and has substantive impact on public discourse? The Christian Science Monitor.
The Monitor (or “CSM” as it is known in the intelligence community) is widely read by CIA and other intelligence agency analysts because of the newspaper’s attention to accuracy and global perspective. Project Censored noted that the Monitor often publishes factual articles discussing topics under-represented or absent from the mainstream mass media.
Source: http://www.answers.com/topic/christian-science-monitor
The Christian Science Monitor, with a mere circulation of 71,000, is linked to by more blogs than any other newspaper.
With more blog links per reader than any other paper, the CSM is the nation’s bloggiest paper by far. As for the rest of the bloggiest papers, there are few surprises (numbers correspond to their “links per circulation” ratio):
1. 134.9 Christian Science Monitor
2. 101.5 The Guardian
3. 62.89 The New York Times
4. 40.32 The Washington Post
5. 29.59 San Francisco Chronicle
6. 34.42 The Scotsman
7. 29.59 Boston Globe
8. 20.14 The Independent
9. 18.40 The Washington Times
10. 12.89 The Seattle Post-Intelligencer
Source: http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/2005/05/003685.html
I wanted to let all of you know that I’ve read through your comments and I will respond to many of them when I’m able. I’m still experiencing a lot of pain, which I shouldn’t be if everything is supposed to be all right with my kidneys now. I have lupus that affects my kidneys and, apparently, the passing of a stone didn’t resolve the situation, so I’m off to the doctor’s again this afternoon.
I won’t ignore those who have challenged my opinions and statements. I just can’t sit much longer and need to get back to bed.
I have lived by the philosophy that everything happens for a reason throughout most of my life and I sincerely try to look at situations as challenges instead of problems. We’ve been presented a great challenge here and I agree with those who have said that what has happened will make us stronger. We have yet to see how that will happen on a grand scale. I already know how it has affected me personally.
Thanks to all who have commented. I’ll be back when I can.
Hey Catnip- lupus is a sister disease to scleroderma. If you need some support or medical info on the latests drugs and treatments check out International Scleroderma Network. I have volunteered and worked on this site and some scleroderma books since 2000. Great community there for anyone with an auto-immune disease. I feel your pain!
Take care.
And you have affected many of us personally, if anonymously. Do take care of yourself for yourself, first . . . but also for us who look forward to time with you here.
I don’t exactly pray — but when I have my daily contemplation time in my garden (when nearby church bells provide a wonderful free concert for me), I will be thinking of you and sending good thoughts north.
(And they won’t have to far to get to you, since in Wisconsin, I’m just across our mutual border.:-)
I’m new here at BT after lurking at DKos for about 6 months and then registering there back in January. I posted occasionally, and although I read the diaries voraciously I never composed one of my own. Still, as a commenter and reader there, I quickly gleaned that it was a mostly-male chorus singing mostly-male tunes–which I have no problem with and enjoy participating in, until things turn borderline misogynistic. I loved the many diaries about gender and women’s issues that I read there (as well as diaries on myriad other political subjects) but I couldn’t stand the tone that many of the regulars–and especially Kos himself–took in their writings.
I’ll probably continue to visit DKos and scan the diaries for news pieces, but I’d like to do my actual participating here….where it seems so many of my favorite folks to read and ponder have migrated to. ‘Nuff said?
What a pleasure to find you here — with so many others I have enjoyed reading at dKos. I wish I could cure what ails you physically, but of course I can’t.
All I can do is send you loving, supportive thoughts and become a part of this community as we all work for the changes we so desperately need.
I’ve been here at Boo only since slightly before ‘pie’, when I volunteered to read some ACLU docs. I first discovered dKos, and then other liberal blogs in March, so I’m a newbie to all of this.(My discovery was due to a link from Buzzflash.)
When I first got hooked on dKos I often read every comment. I was so impressed with the intellects and the enlightened conversations, and the ability to consider many angles of an issue, and to be able to disagree and still be civil and the obvious enjoyment and confraternity of the participants. Living in a red area, it was such a wonderful gift of spring, in the face of the cruel winter we are living in.
But recently I had noticed that often the first thread degenerated into adolescent scatology, as if it were a contest to see who could make the crudest pun about the ‘Rethugs’. At first I kept reading; then scrolling to the next ‘parent’ or 4-rated comment, hoping for that thoughtful, enlightening discourse of old. But it soon was not worth my time to look. By the time of ‘pie’ dKos was for me a source for newslinks. I had stopped reading comments. I think this began when Stirling left.
I attended the Harpers Ferry meetup. Someone there told me that something like 20,000 people have registered at dKos (including me) in the last four months. So I began checking UIDs to see if the crudity was solely a product of the new influx of participants. I didn’t have the persistence or the stomach for it though.
I didn’t read the pie diary comments past the first dozen. So I missed the offensive stuff. But I did read Kos’ front-paged remarks, and couldn’t believe how crass, cold and disrespectful he sounded.
I’m glad to be here at Boo. This feels more like a real community of thoughful, caring, supportive people keeping the Jeffersonian spirit alive.
And I wish you no more kidney stones Catnip. Check out ‘Prescription for Nutritional Healing.’ My husband passed a small stone and has cured the problem via diet.
ps: TrueRot is an anagram I chose as a descriptor of the current occupiers of our government.
Did Thomas Jefferson say “All men are created equal?” Did that include his wife, or the black men that he owned? I suppose he was considered quite the progressive for his time.
Anybody hear about the African-Americans who have quit their jobs at the ‘historic plantation recreations?’ They were expected to act really happy, but found that offensive.
I’m looking forward to the time when we can stop trying to make a buck off of making our daughters look and act like prostitutes. And when the girls find it too offensive to participate.
and I also hope you come back or at least cross post if you diary.
My apologies, from dK I’m just one in a bunch of people over there, but if it’s any enlightenment, I’m not really pleased with my tone during the pie fight. Currently there are users in the 50ks fanning the flames. It’s a growing pain I guess.
I wish, in my perfect liberal little fantasy world, 2 things on this issue. One, progressive groups had the ad money and inclination to displace an ad like that. Two that much of the energy from both communities is turned on the Republicans for ’06.
I personally am a third party fan, but let’s be real….if we don’t hang together, surely we’ll hang seperately. </Franklin>
I’m of a split decision whether it belongs on a progressive blogs. I see both sides as a good liberal.
I guess I’m disappointed that the money in PR and ad campaigns is so utterly wasteful IMO. I mean when PR and ad execs get paid many more times what a teacher or state worker make I guess it’s just lucrative.
I think that there’s a component that’s being missed here and dK; what do we say of women who work in the industry. And before we start pulling out the Kilnsey reports to show the incidence of abuse, let’s just say that there’s yes, theresure can be an element of that, but I don’t think we can say that about everyone in the industry. My further question would be of young women at spring break or other public venues that flash men. I’d like to discuss this as a cultural, larger issue. Maybe it can be wagon wheeled…
The two ads on dK right now are the pie ad and kidnapping of women for the sex trade. Catnip, what do you think strikes me as more of a women’s issue? I hope that doesn’t sound bad to you, as if I’m saying, “you should just appreciate being American.” That’s not it at all.
In fact, you’ll find me on other boards, fighting with words over abortion and freedom. Some unmentionables places, even….
Summing up, I think that Kos could have handled it better but don’t know if I personally would have either. I can hope, but only in theoreticals. I don’t like some of the acrimony about it but hey, that’s your right as a poster and I’d do nothing to quash that. Only how I feel.