This diary began as a post on MAJeff’s post.
You should read him anyways, but you should surely read it before you read anything below.
Jeff’s post is a good example of bringing what is otherwise academese to the mythical “educated non-specialist” that we all like to be, and even the specialists who checked in voiced their approval of Jeff’s precis of ideas that can and do consume careers.
I’d like to respond both to the theory and its application as presented, especially this:
Then it was mocked.
Well, that’s not the only conversation that was going on, there. So much more has been said, even on the explicit and rational level than has been heard. Instead, too many of us have been performing our expected roles.
And we’re supposed to be the ones who can think out of those boxes, right?
One of the difficulties in thinking clearly about how we recreate our gender(ed) identities from moment to moment is the profusion of different one around us, at least for those of us living in a cosmopolitan environment.
When the notion that gendered power might have negative implications for the gender in power finally found a popularizing work (long after the observation itself had passed the ‘no duh’ phase for those of us with even a passing involvement in gender), I was surprised (because I was still kinda young) at the hatred it elicited from the very popular audience that was supposed to receive it. This was before I learned that the problem with worrying about what people think is that most of them don’t (and don’t want to).
How could feminists be such hypocrites, these idiots ranted, to say that masculinity hurt the same men who supposedly dominated society? This, after trashing men for so long!
This was wrong on so many levels.
- feminists are popularly imagined to be men-haters because Limbaugh says so. No other reason. Sure, you can find some pretty reductionist, essentializing bullshit from women who apparently have problems with men, but so what? You can find people working out their personal problems down at Jiffy Lube. Who gives a fuck?
- the popular response also ignored that just across the highway, over on the other side of town, or among a different generation or cohort, gender could be being acted out in a very different way.
There are plural masculinities and femininities because we bring different ones here from all over the world and because some of us are trying to change them. That makes for a confusing world, which is why academics get paid the big bucks…
KOS’ initial comment was incredible loaded and imho totally stupid. And yet I knew what he was talking about in the same way that I know what people are talking about when they trash academics, for instance, even though these are only stereotypes. In fact, the set KOS was talking about is quite ironically NOT the women’s studies type, in my experience. People who actually study this stuff have a tendency to know something about it. As with much knowledge, however, a little is a dangerous thing, and too many are about as well informed as your average ditto-head.
My conservative friends (a number which shrinks every day) have a hard time believing that I only ever encountered their stereotypical PC in undergrads, and not among the serious ones. Not among grad students. Not among faculty. Nope. The only ‘apologize for being [insert non subaltern status here], since I can conceive of a rhetorical connection between your actions/words/silences and the suffering of [insert subaltern status here]’ idiots I ever ran into were dilettantes.
You know: poseurs. One of them grew up to be Wonkette…
At the time, I was a new grad student working under a lesbian feminist scholar who was quantifying liturgical elements of radical Catholics’ wills during the upheavals of the Wars of Religion as a way of writing a history of the body in a time of all-out ideological combat. After squinting at 16th century paleography puzzling through modern and premodern languages, entering data in a proprietary database, and having my boss (who doesn’t grasp that not everyone is as brilliant as she is) babble at me in her Tower of Babble codeswitch dialect of academese, the half-understood and soggy repackagings of Victorian sensibilities, or bizarre inversions of male chauvinism into a derivative female chauvinism were, as “feminism” or any other idea worthy of the suffix “-ism,” around which I had spent my adolescent life were now simply beneath contempt.
In fact, I couldn’t stop laughing. It was like learning about neural plasticity on Oprah or sovereign immunity on Limbaugh.
Absent referents? Whatever.
These people weren’t any better informed than the half-assed ranters writing letters to the editor about “feminazis,” they had just accessorized their identities with some other handful of words they clearly didn’t understand. These were ideologues, only they were leftists. They were no better informed and were just as aggressive. Which was I supposed to be? The bad guy or the good guy in their dimestore morality tale?
And who were they? There was nothing progressive, or even self-conscious, about these people’s behavior. It’s easy, for instance, to put on a Che shirt and talk about injustice in Latin America, but what are you doing about it and how do you keep that kind of victimization from happening in your own life? For these particular ideologues, the rhetoric of a pseudo-feminism seemed to function as a sort of rationalization that relieved them of having to make the changes I would expect from a progressive person battling back against an unjust world. No. Same behavior, different rationalization. Women who had a penchant for picking out men who were utterly unfit for the relationships they had planned for them could simply invert medieval notions of gender roles and write off all men as sexually driven, irrational, and unreliable (see? Now you don’t need to watch Sex in the City, you know every plot and character!).
Repeat if necessary.
Or, more comfortingly, all sex (and the gender with which one associated it) could be reframed as a pathology. When in doubt, men could also be dismissed as too rational, rationality being mere “male hysteria,” which is an easy way to get out of having to frame rational arguments or remember facts and sources. Alternately, one could haunt oneself with the phantasms of women’s suffering, real or imagined, here or elsewhere, now or in the past, visiting vicariously what they could just as easily leave (unlike the actual, suffering women), but which also entitled them to challenge any not dreamily preoccupied with the non-present outrage about which they were materially doing nothing. A moth-eaten, diaphanous shroud of conjured miseries did double duty as veil and blunt instrument.
Now, I have seen every one of these pointless exercises repeated over vegetarianism, race, homophobia, and I’ve seen the same regurgitation of victim ploys be picked up by the right. Potboiler popular feminism is not a unique phenomenon. Plenty of people subscribe to an ideology they can’t be bothered to understand, dumbing it down to mere cargo cult status, just so long as it reinforces how they’ve accessorized their socioeconomic status and gives them fancy words to throw at their enemies.
So, when I saw what KOS said, I knew immediately what he meant. He was dreading the inevitable. He’d spoke of the devil, invoked his own testicle-clipping doom, if only in his own imagination, the product of years of having to deal with shrill poseurs. “Oh, shit. Not those people again. Real world trolls: you know exactly what they’re going to say because they’ve been screeching at you for fucking years!”
I also knew that he
- didn’t need to say anything in the first place
- had framed it backwards (women’s studies students aren’t his problem)
- was probably going to piss off a lot of people who were even the people he was talking about
- had just provided Powerwhine, etc., with a lot of content.
So, where are we now?
Ordinarily, I would say that people engaged in this kind of grudge match deserve each other, only the people around them don’t. But in this case, I think we’ve got two groups of people who aren’t even addressing each other, but rather who are attacking some imaginary other.
KOS refuses to perform the neo-masculinity demanded by pseudo-feminists: outrage has been pronounced; you may now grovel and beg forgiveness. If you cannot do this, you are the wrong kind of man. Others have done this. They are the right kind of man.
Or perhaps his upbringing in another culture makes him genuinely hostile to or dismissive of the concerns of the color and class of women who are likely to be online anyway. Theirs is a narrow band of possible femininities among many, most of which are submerged by cultural restrictions and/or economic limitations.
You are two fragments, flapping at each other in an indifferent sea of possibilities and identities. Get over yourselves. All of you. Any politically useful coalition on this or any other issue is going to cut across these cultures and their performances. A lack of respect and a politically naiive sense of misplaced priorities has sundered natural allies. The only beneficiary is the Right, for whom rigidity and submission, under the pretense of tradition and economics, are the norm.
Do you think you’ll get a better deal from them?
It’s not like I can stop you!
Grand Moff, we try to welcome everyone here, but since you’re new, you may be happy to know that we don’t falme and we don’t troll rate other than unescapably obvious trolls. I know it is a bit out of the norm, but generally the community takes care of these things by actually listening to what others have to say. Agree, disagree, whatever the discussion brings, but we do it civily and with respect. Feel free to express your views, and participate in mutual respect. Thank you.
I was being silly.
Who calls themselves a “troll,” anyway?
Sorry, I’ve been on 4 patrol for the past 3 days and I’m a little tired. . .must have accidentally turned of the humor button. Didn’t mean to rain on your silly-ness. . .we encourage silliness here.
Ack.
You give people the power to rate things as a way of building community and ordering the threads, and then you lose sleep worrying they’ll abuse it.
It’s like having a teenager (or at least what I think that will be like: ask me in about twelve years).
As far as I’m concerned: spot on, and stunningly well put.
I don’t want Kos to curl up and die. I’d just rather be here. DK was a cool place where I could go and find rationality in a freeper hate-filled world. Well, gee, I took a women’s studies class. I majored in engineering so it was a little weird. But I don’t want to get bashed. There is no purpose in going back there, giving my actual money to a group that has identified me as a target of contempt. I’m not kinky enough to pay for that gig.
Coordinate with them? Sure. Hang out with them? no longer. It is not enjoyable. Some people will hang out at both places and I will have the advantage of filters and a peaceful place.
Please identify promising candidates here and we can give them nice pink money. They can give their money there. We can work together to elect.
The wicked irony is the great brilliance of the DNC was to dump working class men. Now the great brilliance of the dems is to dump women. I mean, who is left to vote for them?
-redwagon
First off, your original comments about my ability to translate academese were incredibly heartening. I’ve been told I have a tendency to get lost in that language–I think I’m a decent translator, but damn is it nice to have that confirmed. (And I’m sure as hell hoping the “poseur” wasn’t directed at me.)
I realize I only dealt with one thread of the conversations. This isn’t the only conversation in which people are talking past each other. I’m used to that. The social systems analysis I most often use is foreign to a lot of people…I see people embedded in networks and structures, many folks see individuals freely acting; those two world views collide a lot.
As I’ve been saying in several comments at both sites, I’m not leaving dKos, I’m switching my emphasis. It has to do with my writing and the conversations more than anything. I always felt an odd “fit” at dKos; there were posters I loved conversing with, diarists I sought out, while ignoring most of it, and successfully avoiding most of the conflagrations. This one has been tough, though–I had a touching and difficult exchange with Michael (musing85) last night. I think that points to what, for me, has been the biggest issue in all this–relationships.
dkos has been, for me, a site where I’ve developed online relationships. There are folks who I’ve never met, but whom I look forwarded to talking to every night. The preponderance of those relationships is now on this site; thus, I am too.
Here’s something else I’ve been tossing out, the migration over here might end up an overall positive. It’s not as though the two sites won’t still be linked–with links and posters–to each other. They both remain part of a lefty/liberal/Dem network of blogs. It’s not as though there ain’t gonna be any interaction. The potential positive is an increase in the number of liberal points of power. A proliferation of power isn’t such a bad thing. It’s anybody’s guess how that might play out.
to the poseurs, as a matter of fact but (like my thesis, apparently) that could probably use some sharpening up.
I appreciate your copious use of big words, and your credentials in the area of women’s studies.
Funny bit is, I think you have the right bits, but you’re so hung-up on your “psuedo-feminist” angle, you’re not seeing the whole picture.
You admit Markos blundered on his handling of the issue. Lets start from there.
For the sake of argument, lets even assume this was really was started over a tempest in a teapot. Mind you, I strongly disagree, but I can make my point even if you’re right and I’m wrong on that one, so lets run with it.
By that, we have the following chronology:
But I stand by the fact that people are leaving not to “hurt dKos”, but simply to make themselves happier. Why happier? Because of what happened after Markos blew it.
The community went nuts.
Who fired the first shot is pretty irrelevant, in the grand scheme. Why they were fired is even less relevant. (I think your diary stresses too much on the why it happened.)
Fact: The community went nuts.
At this point, community leadership has to step in and set things right. There are many ways to do this. I think its a given that Markos’ approach was universally unhelpful.
He didn’t restore order. He didn’t seek compromise. He restated his convictions, and went after his critics.
Okay, bad form. But eh, he’s human.
Then it got worse
The community went after itself. And he did…. nothing.
Now, that is reason enough to leave.
Me? In his shoes I would have called for civility, and set the example in a frontpage post. I would have called off Armando’s Inquisition. If I couldn’t restore civility by example, I might have just shut the site down for a day — kossacks go nuts when its down for 10 minutes, imagine it being gone for a day.
I don’t think I’d have said “This is my crib, you cats can skedaddle if you don’t like the decor.” No matter if I felt that way or not.
Having you and Armando and ‘Yeah Whatever’ and others here telling everyone what a horrible, awful, no-good mistake they’re making for leaving isn’t helping.
Ridiculous Conclusion: If you leave dKos, you let the Right Wing win.
I reject that conclusion. I think the liberal/progressive online movement benefitted from an large commons where many contrasting ideas were shared. But if Markos is going to let the commons go to the dogs, and retreat to defending only 3 main topics, well, the movement will survive.
Its a ridiculous conclusion that by dKos getting smaller (through out-migration), the movement is wounded. If that’s the case, then Markos shouldn’t be promoting his “offshoot” sites such as this on his own frontpage, he should be decrying their existence as diluting his (our?) power.
Silly, really.
The out-migration is a consequence of the environment over there, moreso than the ad, or Markos’ response to its criticism.
I’m not disregarding what you’ve written. But I’m discounting its relevance. I don’t see the out-migration as a consequence of false assumptions about feminism.
Its much simpler than that. Its how the site deals with internal conflict. And right now it conflates criticism with certain policies or decisions with criticisms of the site as a whole, passively allows (or tacitly encourages) out-of-bounds attacks on people with concerns, mischaracterizes and demonizes people sympathetic to the views of a few who expressed support for those being attacked, and views people who left as whiney traitors.
Traitors? To what?
Sheeesh. Whether folks who left dKos go back or not, dKos has a very large mess to clean up. I suggest dKos supporters’ time would be better spent cleaning out the sheep pens than hunting down lost sheep.
Some of us are just free spirits.
Thanks for your comment here…
Sheeesh. Whether folks who left dKos go back or not, dKos has a very large mess to clean up.
Too many of my early years were as a peacemaker, placator, and cleaning woman for other’s messes…
No longer a cleaning woman…free spirit sounds good to me!
and you argue with much that I didn’t say. And how many times do I have to beat up on KOS before I’ll have my credentials straight with you?
In fact, the point where you go wrong is when you say I’m hung up on the pseudo-feminist angle.
Hello? That’s the point.
As I wrote elsewhere, KOS was dreading the ‘Attack of the Dworkin People,’ probably from long experience, if his experience is anything like mine. In so doing, he brought a lot of that on himself (not that that’s all there was to the reaction he got, mind you).
Please, if you’re going to address anything, address my point. I know that I’m long winded and play too much with words, but you yourself have just wasted several inches of cyberspace to bark up the wrong tree (and we’ve had enough of that, lately).
I wrote this diary because not one, NOT ONE of KOS’ female and/or feminist critics bothered to figure out why he did what he did (unless I missed someone).
Instead, they went straight into their usual spiels about men, sexism, and the plight of women, all while attacking KOS. Not so much as an attempt to figure out why it had happened.
I’ve offered a few suggestions here, and have REAPEATEDLY talked about how each side talks past the other. I would be interested in anything you might have to say about what I actually wrote, since no one here really needs another rehash of what happened.
to see if you had posted this same diary over there. You have not. why not? why not everyone get over themselves and why just people here?
I would like you to post this at Dkos. that is the fair thing to do. and i will read the comments with great interest
because I have a problem with that kind of “look at me” approach. Oh, and I was in a hurry.
Besides, I used to blogwhore there, and that’s begun to work on my conscience some.
But, if you think there’s something fishy about my not doing so then, in the interest in Good Relations Between Our Two Great Peoples, I will do so, just to show you that I’m not up to anything evil.