I was tempted to title this Kos is Dean, because that’s my point: both Markos and Howard are passionate, partisan Democrats who sometimes engage their mouths (or their fingers) before their brains are fully in gear.
Not that I view this as a completely negative thing. It’s that rough-edged, essentially unfiltered view that makes listening to either compelling. I can honestly say that I wouldn’t have been lined up at the first Dean house party if it wasn’t for the visceral — even red-faced — approach he took in his early speeches. And I wouldn’t have signed onto kos in the very early days if I didn’t see it as a place where people never hesitated to speak their minds.
The rawness is part of what makes them both attractive to Democrats and, I suspect, part of what makes Markos so enthusiastic about the doctor.
This doesn’t mean that what kos said in his post (either the original or the update) was a good thing. Hell, if I’m going to talk about being honest, here’s what I honestly think of what he said. I think it was stupid. I think it was childish. I think it was uncalled for, sophomoric and rude. That’s what I think. And I think that he really meant to apologize, he could have done so in a way that looked to contain at least a modicum of sincerity without even changing that many words. What if kos, in his update, had said:
I apologize for what I wrote earlier. It was late, I was tired, and I said something very foolish. It doesn’t really represent how I feel about women in general, and especially about the large number of women across the Democratic spectrum who have contributed so much to this site.
It’s my belief that a statement like that, given at the time, would have snapped off this debate in an instant. But instead kos clammed up. True or not, he gave the impression that he was digging his heels.
Dr. Dean has sometimes done the same. There have been some occasions when he (or at least, the PR machine around his campaign) was no better in forming their response. You can go from the recent flap over lazy Republicans back to the rebel flag fiasco. In each case, Dean was saying something essentially correct, but he did so in a way that gave more ammunition to critics than friends. Those of us who pull for the guy have supported him through these conflicts and rightly pointed out both the good intent of the statements and their unimportance in the scheme of things. That doesn’t mean Dean has escaped without some bruises.
Similarly, Kos’s “screw them” statement was his raw expression of personal feelings. A year later, the site is bigger than ever — but the community (and kos’s reputation) would be better off if those words had never been spoken. Now we have the “women’s studies” comment, which took a small dispute and elevated it to a community crisis. Markos will live. DailyKos will live. I’ll bet you if you check in there in summer 2006, you’ll find even more folks than today. That doesn’t make this any less of a black eye.
I’ll continue to support both Dean and kos, because we need them both. Both men have been singularly effective in their abilities to raise interest, issues, and almighty dollars (hey grammarians, can two people be singularly effective? ) They’re both smart guys, and vigorous defenders of the Democratic Party. We’d be in worse shape without either of them around.
Part of what draws us to them is the occasional thin spot in the filters between their minds and their tongues. Now, the trick will really be to see if they, Dean and kos, can learn to strike the right balance between honesty and thoughtfulness. Personally, I believe Dean has already made great strides along this route. He’s gone from being a smart doctor with good ideas and a great interest in politics to a good politician. He’s not yet a great politician, but he’s working on it.
Kos… eh, not so much. My impression is that, well kos doesn’t care what my impression is. He would tell you that he’s not running for office. Fair enough. But he does need to realize that when you’ve fired the first shot in the ol’ Democratic circular firing squad (or at the very least, raised the caliber) the best thing a good partisan Democrat can do is to try and stop the fight. When you really care about the team, every now and then you need to take one for the team.
Couldn’t agree more.
I can’t imagine the kind of sexist crap that goes on at dkos being tolerated in any organization Dean was in charge of. He certainly wouldn’t have characterized woman as extremists just because they told the truth about a POS sexist add. Nor would he tolerate the kind of SYFPH frat boy atmosphere that has broken out at dkos.
I have to say that part of why I rarely post at kos these days is that I get… weird reponses. Either I missed some inside jokes (entirely possible), or there a lot of people these days that think “FU” is a valid response to almost any argument.
Eh, give me half a chance and I’ll start my rocking chair and talk about the “old days” before the other 50,000 people showed up.
I can’t figure out how that place went from such intelligent discourse to such clutter. The signal:noise ratio has dropped too far IMO.
First, to make that comparison you have to buy into the echo chamber snippet of what Dean has said. I don’t, and neither should you.
Second, Dean’s words have always attracted me, but Kos’s have always (and my user ID there is under 2000) repelled me to varying extents. Put Dean’s remarks in context and they always sound better. Kos’s context just digs the hole deeper. These guys are almost total opposites, IMO.
Third, some perspective in comparing the two. One guy has raised a family, governed a state, electrified a segment of the population, and has an extremely important position which might be able to change the course of this country. The other guy has started a family and a blog, which I’d bet 99% of the population has never heard of.
To paraphrase Dr. Lawrence J. Peter:
Billmon’s take on Dean is quite interesting:
http://billmon.org/archives/001885.html
Nice to read a grown-up’s perspective after suffering the Deaniacs at dKos.
Is this new?
It’s a sincere question. If this “verbal gaffe” label is a new thing, I’m inclined to say it’s more the hyena effect of the media than it is Dean, and we shouldn’t be so eager to see a relief pitcher. If he’s done this stuff before, then I’m more inclined to agree with Billmon’s post.
I do think it’s important to keep in mind the crazy double standards the media has. For example, Dick Cheney can lie about Iraq, on tape, and then come back on an interview show and deny he ever said the lie, and that doesn’t get played over and over and over again like “the scream” was.
“it’s been pretty well confirmed that he [Atta] did go to Prague and he did meet with a senior official of the Iraqi intelligence service in Czechoslovakia last April, several months before the attack.”
June 2004 Cheney:
“Borger: Well, let’s get to Mohamed Atta for a minute because you mentioned him as well. You have said in the past that it was, quote, “pretty well confirmed.”
Cheney: No, I never said that.
Borger: OK.
Cheney: I never said that.”
(Full disclosure: I was a Kucitizen who later donated to Dr Dean’s campaign before settling for donating to Kerry’s)
Devilstower,
I am glad to see you posting. I missed your diaries.
IMHO- Deans first “Repubs don’t work” comment was a tit-for-tat response to the “Dems on welfare” comment made last week. Todays “white christian party” comment I took as a sharp jab at the Big Tent stance the Republicans like to cozy up to every election cycle, then pull the tent flap shut at minute the polls close.
Dean was swiping at Republicans
Kos swipped at those playing on the same Democratic team, and made disparaging comments to half the site.
That is what I see as the difference between the Kos and Dean remarks.
Abso-frigging-lutely. Dean has, so far, done nothing he needs to apologize for. Taken in context, his remarks are a perfectly sensible part of an attempt to destroy the Republican Party’s attempts to portray itself as the party of the common man. Taken in context, kos’s outburst becomes even more rude and offensive.
Dean’s shelling the enemy. kos just dropped some bombs on a friendly unit. And now I’m being told they’re identical? Please! Pull the other one, for it has bells on!
kos cannot hold deans jock strap as is apparent in his front page articles on dkos that are horrible analysis’s of articles of news that all of news junkies have already read.