I thought I’d provide the following graphs as food for thought in the current debates. I know that the money stuff is certainly not the immediate reason for the current debates, but it is certainly part of the background.
(Source: WOMEN’S ECONOMIC STATUS IN THE STATES: Wide Disparities by Race, Ethnicity, and Region (pdf) – Institute for Women’s Policy Research, 2004)
(Source: EARNINGS DIFFERENCES BETWEEN WOMEN AND MEN (pdf) – DoL, 1993)
(Sorry that some of the numbers are a bit old, I Haven’t been able to dind more recent ones for all graphs, but I doubt that things have changed so much)
(Source: Women working Left Business Observer, 1994)
(Source: WOMEN’S ECONOMIC STATUS IN THE STATES: Wide Disparities by Race, Ethnicity, and Region (pdf) – Institute for Women’s Policy Research, 2004)
And the last one is not directly linked to work and income, but it provides some additional insights:
(Source (ppt doc) – Canadian Association of Administrators of Labor Relations)
Wow. Thanks for putting this together. Some of the labor market segmentation numbers are staggering–in particular, I didn’t realize how unbalanced engineering still was, since two out of the three engineers in my extended family are women. Further proof that you can’t trust those small data sets.
Thanks again.
Engineering’s horrible, Computer Science is about as bad. I think Mathematics and Real Science these days is actually starting to be pretty close to balanced. But in Computer Science, you see a lot of subtle bias against women from otherwise very intelligent people. They simply cannot grasp the concept that women can be as good at their work as they can. Because of that, women tend to “concentrate” – you see a lot of all-women or mostly-women research groups at my university.
It is still perplexing why women are so underrepresented in engineering and science careers. Lawrence Summers would have us believe it’s because we’re inherently dumber than men…but my belief is that we’ve been told from an early age that we must hate and struggle academically with math beginning in Jr. High, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. I know I did my part by dropping from A’s to D’s in eighth grade pre-algebra.
My husband is a computer engineer and he works with an overwhelming majority of males. The women who are his counterparts are obviously brilliant and accomplished, and I cringe (and smack him down!) when I hear him talk about “Jane” was “whining” about something…but “Joe” is merely being a troubleshooter or bringing some vital situation to light. There is such a double standard.
I agree. The preponderance of males in these professions is because women are told “women can’t”. Drives me batty, as I know more than a few women who have the aptitude to be amazing in these fields, but persist in believing that they can’t. (And I don’t know any men like that)
The double standard is new to me, as I’m more of an academic computer science type. Though I’m sure I could find examples of it if I dug through, say, paper submission processes.
honestly, I don’t know what the heck my husband is. He’s got a master’s degree in computer science and has been working as a software engineer for 20 years. In his last company there were 45 employees and only two of them were women….admins of course.
I think we need to change the language with which we talk about women. Men are assertive…women are bitchy. Men are proactive…women are whiney or manipulative. GAA.
when I was in school (about 3 years I graduated) for Computer Science, tne ratio of men to women was about 9-1.
There are more women in college now then men… should we be concerned about that?
I like to say electrical engineering and mathematics
are stuck in the 1950’s. It really is. The subtle
and not so subtle undermining attitudes and it gets
worse in many corporations.
Everything like every woman engineer gets hit on
and nobody seems to realize that might be an issue
to being completely discounted in meetings, efforts
ignored, project leadership automatically being
given to men.
It really is horrific and even more, it’s just not
challenged.
Clearly it’s not the subject matter or “mathematical”
aspects because there are now almost 50% MD’s who
are women, chemical engineering is coming up to 50%..
then EE sits there, 5%.
It’s a cultural thing that just hasn’t been challenged
and now due to the destruction of the career by offshore outsourcing and horrific treatment of computer engineers by corporations, this is probably not going to get addressed anytime soon.
One of the things that my company does right is attempts at diversity. I say attempts, because coal mining, and mining in general, is not something that attracts either a lot of women or minorities.
For several years, my company has offered full ride scholarships to women interested in getting a degree in mining engineering. In a good portion of those years, the scholarships have been unclaimed.
If you know someone who is interested…
I’m glad to see you here. If you haven’t been over there yet, the Welcome Wagon is inviting people to introduce themselves and say hi. It’s a great opportunity to spend a minute with some of the original members of the site.
What’s the name of the company/scholarship and I can
pass this along. Is this undergrad or grad, MS or
PhD or ? Do they have to attend a specific university
or any with a mining engineering pgm?
this is imp. on who to pass this along to.
There are ALOT of women techies out there, is this
undergrad or grad who got slammed in the offshore
outsourcing, replace Americans with much cheaper
foreigners movement who would jump on a complete
free ride.
Robert,
Shoot me an email and I’ll be happy to collect the information.
I believe the scholarship is for a 5 year mining engineering program. There are only two that I know of School of Mines in Colorado and UM Rolla in Rolla, MO), however there could be more out there, especially since it’s been years since I looked.
The recipient also has to agree to consider a job offer from the company on completion — but I believe that’s worded in a very flexible way.
I suggest your company contact Mensa if they want to find women that might be interested. I’m sure they would really like to know about this scholarship, if they don’t already.
My bad, I now realize that maybe I should pass it along to Mensa. May I send an email to you to get the info?
as well. My younger sister has a BS in HydroGeology and I know she’d love to go on to her Masters. As for entertaining a job offer from the company, that probably wouldn’t be too hard on her.
She’s currently living in the DC area and working as an office admin. Can’t find a position in her field.
Great stuff!
I’m a practicing hydrogeologist with a bachelor’s in Geology and a master’s in hydrogeology. I’ve been working in the field for 22 years. I’ve hired quite a few hydrogeologists, but none with bachelors degrees only. I’d strongly second your thoughts on her getting an advanced degree. Hydrogeology is a pretty specialized field, and a BS doesn’t give you enough depth.
Having said that – I’d like to add some statistics about my work place. I work for a large consulting firm that is largely an engineering practice (although we scientists like to keep them honest). Our local office has 228 employees, with 86 women and 142 men, or 38 percent women and 62 percent men. If you subtract out the administrative roles and focus solely on the “consulting” positions, the numbers and percentages are:
59 women (32 percent)
128 men (68 percent)
187 total consulting staff
Of course “consulting” includes people like biologists, geologists, archaeologists, and planners in addition to civil, environmental, mechanical, and structural engineers. There is no doubt that there is a greater proportion of women scientists (especially biologists) than engineers. But we do have women representation in even quite quantitative engineering fields (such as one nuclear engineer I work with).
My time sheet is approved by my female supervisor, our office is managed by a woman, and our region — one of four in the United States, is managed by a woman. When we make new hires, it seems that about half are women. Maybe women find consulting engineering a more welcoming career path than in-plant engineering.
If you’re new here, something you may want to be aware of (and certainly something I want to take the liberty of making you aware of) is that quite a lot of ‘foreigners’ read boomantribune. One of its strengths, IMO, is that it is more self-consciously internationalist than some other places in the blogosphere. In short, it may be problematic to assume that in this space, you are writing for only a U.S. readership.
One of the things I really value about this site is that it is welcoming for ‘foreigners.’ That’s something that I very much hope will be preserved as it grows.
I’m really surprized to read these horror stories about women in software. Throughout my career, at least 25% of the software engineers have been women, and its more like 40% today. The glass ceiling also seems to be gone – I have worked for lots of women in management and VP roles. One of my former bosses in now a CEO. Of course most of my career was spent in California, maybe it’s different in other places.
I think that software is one of the better professions for women. Some others are astronomy, finance and most of the life sciences. Even teaching, that old standby, is getting better pay and respect in some states. The upcoming wave of teacher retirements should open up lots of opportunities in the next 5 years.
over at dKos, it’s here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2005/6/8/6591/10719
It has already generated some pretty ugly comments… “junk science”, nothing to do with the pie stuff”, etc… Maybe we can make it more visible over there. Just click the link and recommend, no need to go see the rest of the site!
Dear Jerome,
You are SO brave. I went over to see the comments. Sheesh. They are never, ever gonna get it.
But these statistics say a lot. Thank you, thank you, thank you. 🙂
Lorraine, I say all of the following with respect, can you please think up some word for the sort of people who are discarding women’s concerns at dKos instead of using the all-inclusive “they” or “them?” A lot, I’d say most, of us “get it.”
Many of us have stayed there and are trying to fight back, and we don’t want an ever-widening rift between dKos and the dKos spawned sites. It’s like a bad divorce, and those of us who’re staying at dKos and having visit here are like the kids of that divorce.
When people work at widening the rift — at either site — it’s really disrespectful of those people who’ve stayed at dKos and and trying hard to change it’s attitude. It negates and sabotages all their efforts. Certainly the lefty blogosphere would be better off if dKos’s readership was more respectful and open to women’s issues, right? So please don’t undermine all those efforts to rehabilitate the largest lefty blog on the net before they start by setting up an antagonistic and absolutist relationship.
Addison,
You are absolutely correct. I meant “They” in a specific context–the posters who were ridiculing Jerome’s statistics, but my use of the word “they” seemed to tar everyone with the same brush. So, I apologize. It was not intentional and I will watch my language.
Best,
Lorraine
I don’t have to go “over there.” Much nicer here. And this is the stuff I like to read about: reality based stuff, not people’s various hang-ups.
but do now. The whole thread devolved into snarling over something that was unrelated to Jerome’s informed comments. Sad.
A gentle reminder to my Brothers in Arms – just because you “don’t get it” doesn’t mean my POV is invalid. Your perception is colored by your position in the food chain.
Here is an excellent article to explain it further:
http://colours.mahost.org/org/maleprivilege.html
Excerpt:
In 1990, Wellesley College professor Peggy McIntosh wrote an essay called White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack. McIntosh observes that whites in the U.S. are “taught to see racism only in individual acts of meanness, not in invisible systems conferring dominance on my group.” To illustrate these invisible systems, McIntosh wrote a list of 26 invisible privileges whites benefit from.
As McIntosh points out, men also tend to be unaware of their own privileges as men. In the spirit of McIntosh’s essay, I thought I’d compile a list similar to McIntosh’s, focusing on the invisible privileges benefiting men.
(Here is the original document about white privilege: http://seamonkey.ed.asu.edu/~mcisaac/emc598ge/Unpacking.html)
Thanks for the list of subtle male privilege you link to. IMHO it’s worth it’s own diary.
Yeah – I agree.
Unfortunately, writing is not my strong suit.
I would certainly not be upset if anyone took that idea and ran with it!
They are never, ever gonna get it.
No kidding. Despite MB’s contributions and several other statistical cites the group opinion appears to be that there are no inequities. Nonewhatsoever and to mention them is divisive and, as one FP poster says, this pie diary business has gone too far. There is no feminization of poverty. Women aren’t doing any worse financially and have just as many opportunities as men.
extraordinary. No wonder single women aren’t voting.
Some might be shocked at how much worse it is in some states. In mine, women on average make only about 62 cents for every men’s dollar. And mine is Wisconsin — the so-called Progressive state. (Believe me, researching local history here has taught me not to trust “progressive” movements just because they use that adjective.:-)
If you haven’t seen the stats, state by state, in the biennially updated reports from the D.C. Institute on Women’s Policy Research — and on much more than income; my state is ranked 48th in reproductive rights (an F from NARAL), do go to http://www.iwpr.org
The second graph explains a lot. Men’s incomes are going down!
Thanks for the data.
and men don’t get that it is going down because employers pay women less then them and will keep doing so until they no longer pay men more. I can only hope that progressives/liberals, open up their minds and hearts to the destructive path that the right has steadily marched us on and stand up and become a force to be reckoned with in the coming elections. I live in a very red state, yet I don’t feel like a voice in the wilderness. I have actually heard republicans voicing doubt about some of the president’s policies. mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm fractures in the party, I don’t know, but I would guess that more moderate voices are going to start clamoring soon to be heard and then the reichwing will pay for their arrogance.
I have a relative by marriage (really I am not distancing him) who blames “black women” for his inability to find employment. In fact he is forty and trained as a cartographer. He has an eye problem that limits his use of computers so he is effectively unemployable in his chosen area. But instead of blaming progress or change, he blames black women.
Yeah, all those black female GIS experts.
Good call. It is fear – of being “worth” as little as we are.
I love this blog. Already. Pls contact Kos ad people and undercut him on price. All but the one ;->
redwagon
…this to Draconis Rex’s bit about your using “junk science” to make your point:
Geez. You bitch about “junk science” and then you use anecdotal evidence (I have clients) to prove your case that male and female doctors are paid equally? Pathetic.
From The Journal for Pre-Health Afilliated Students:
Some may argue that the inequality of income results from the different specializations of male and female doctors. It is widely agreed that males are more inclined to work in high-risk specialties such as surgery. Women are more predisposed to people-oriented specialties, as indicated by The Journal of the American Medical Women’s Association (JAMWA) in 1997, which reports that “two-thirds of residents specializing in pediatrics and gynecology are females,” while only 1 in 5 of the residents in surgery are female [3].
This report also suggests that the reason for this phenomenon may be that many women want to have families, and more demanding specialties might hamper them from doing so [3]. Therefore, the income of males will be disproportionately higher, because specialists tend to earn more money than primary care physicians. However, it has been found that “women’s median income was 27% less than men’s in family practice, 29% less in internal medicine, and 34% less in pediatrics in 1991” [4]. This reveals that even within specialties that are considered to be female dominated, males tend to earn more.
But mostly, I just wanted to say THANKS to you and all the other wonderful MEN, wonderful MEN, who have listened and understood what us “silly girls” are upset about.
Thanks to all the guys, like ADDISON above, who have declared, against the tide, that they are men and yet they do understand.
I think that, as shocked as I was about Kos’s post and his non-apology update, I was more upset and saddened by all the men piling on … and on … and on.
But it was not all men, and I am thankful.
…woman who had a horribly difficult life, including being an incest victim as a child and being married to three abusers. In addition, I got my comeuppance from feminists in the late ’60s who said (rightly) that I didn’t get it. Thankfully, they were patient. Even when, early on, I rolled my eyes and dismissed some of their views. So, I learned what I know from strong women (most of whom, by the way, had wicked senses of humor).
That is why I have taken so strong a position in urging many women who have left Daily Kos to at least cross-post there. It took women to persuade me over time that I wasn’t seeing clearly. If I’m persuadable, so are other progressive men. But being persuaded takes persuaders.
Mil gracias for this post here and on Kos. There is a recent large-scale study of women’s progress in science by the AAUP. I can’t find it on-line but it is aptly titled “Inequities Persist for Women and Non-Tenure Track Faculty”. While I was hunting for a link, unsuccessfully, you posted this – making me very happy!
However, I’ll quote my husband “If you disagree with it, it’s junk science. If you like it, it’s gold”. That’s about what I think of DRex’s reaction. I’m not sure any statistics will suffice.
I resonate to your statement of needing time for people who are not sympathetic to feminism to understand and appreciate it. I think Markos has a goodly way to go (I hope he has a daughter, which should help him), and it is important to have people nudge him along the road.
I know women doctors who earn less than their male counterparts in medicine. And medicine is a tougher field for them, especially if they want to have families.
One of my friends is an emergency medicine doctor. She’s highly trained and well-experienced. Even while she was the Director of Emergency Medicine at one hospital, she found out that she was being paid less than some of her male counterparts. The rationale of the hospital administration was that they were the main providers for their families while her husband had his own career. Amazing, but true. Now who would have thought this still possible in 2005?
Also, another anecdote in management. I know a very strong and successful female manager who continually received higher performance marks than her peers but yet was paid less than 53% of their salary. Not only did she perform better, but she was also more highly educated. And she was a single mother. When she began to ask questions about why she was paid much less than her less successful male counterparts, she was reassigned to another location. Since she was a single mother, she couldn’t move. And they knew this. So there she was … out of a job. Her take on it .. she should have kept her mouth shut. And this was in in the late 1990’s.
I could give numerous other anecdotes. But suffice it to say, this is not an uncommon occurrence in industry or in the professional fields.
Unfortunately, the widening “wealth gap” is exacerbating the gender income disparity even more. Although I am a male, I find this to be a serious issue that must be adequately and immediately addressed. Not only is it an issue of fairness, it is also an issue of business competitiveness and social cohesion. A society that is torn asunder through the widening “wealth gap” and the ever-widening income disparities between groups will quickly become unstable … once the tipping point is reached. I don’t want to have to wait for the tipping point to be reached before we address these issues.
Are all the diaries contentious over there. I just skimmed a few and left after reading comments that looked like DKos is having a Freeper invasion.
I’ve been reading these thoughtful comments, and thought I’d head over to Daily Kos to see how Jerome’s diary is faring there.
Same old. One example: What does this have to do with the drama over a tongue-in-cheek ad for a Gilligan’s Island reality TV show?
<sigh /> doesn’t even begin to cover it.
thank you Jerome and Meteor Blades (to of my all time favotire people online!) —DRex is a dickhead (and I use that word with complete awareness and intention) — a bit of history with him on dk, don’t even engage him — he’s the kind of person who HATES to be ignored! 😉
Okay….hip boots on…going over to recommend and give you and MB some 4’s.
Thanks for walking with us Jerome…
That sounds just like what a right-winger would say about the theory of evolution. Disappointing and also scary.
I’m not sure I have the stomach to get involved over there right now. I’m guessing that a tremendous number of the anti-women posters over there are probably very young men who have been weaned on a steady diet of pie ads, etc, having come of age in a “post-feminist” era where the sort of conscious attempt to be gender inclusive had already fallen by the wayside.
They got the message that “women are equal” but they don’t really understand that, while that was the goal, it was never reached. So we can’t be treating it like a done deal.
So now there is this perception that women are asking for more than equality. “What are those women bitching still about” kind of attitude.
And there may also be a fair number of them who just adopt a sort of willful ignorance about the whole issue, because there is an unacknowledged awareness that confronting gender and power is a direct threat to their current status as top gender. It is really hard to give up power once you’ve got it.
Unfortunately, I am stimied as to how to speak to these particular subsets of human being in any productive, educational way.
Maybe we can make it more visible over there.
Thank you for this effort, Jerome. But the truth of the matter is that those commenting will deny there is a problem to the point of threatening physical violence (really. I’ve seen DD do this several times)
These are not folks who will ever grant that the US has inequities in regard to women and will oppose every attempt to make these things even a minor priority of the Democratic party. I’ve tried talking with them for years. They’re not just indifferent, they’re actively hostile
Thanks for another fine set of graphs, Jerome! I found Table 3 quite interesting. If the information is out there, I’d be immensely interested to see a comparative study of gender incomes as they relate to each of the separate vocations referenced in that table.
Throughout my career, I’ve worked for some truly despicable people – both men and women. For purposes of this discussion, I’d like to focus on a couple female “leaders” who were both narcissistic in nature and most specifically they thrived on the attention of men. Those “leaders” could not tolerate other women receiving any level of attention whatsoever, and they did everything in their power to hold women back to ensure their own position as the alpha female. Everyone knew the game at hand, but there was nothing the females could do to counteract the situation. In turn, the men got away with terminable offenses, but all they had to do was shower those women with attention and false praise to receive the large salary increases and promotions.
It’s quite sad indeed to witness that type of suppression. It feeds into the age-old perspective of women using their sexuality to get ahead and stay ahead (“The Apprentice”, anyone?) and it was downright embarrassing as well. In those environments, many women are simply unable to find good mentors.
do you think leads to women like that getting ahead? They say that nice guys finish last, but “nice” women finish even behind them. But you are right, I have encountered a lot of jerks in the workplace, women and men. And there are even a few nasty women’s studies professors. But not all male professors are universally adored, or adorable, either.
I love your sig line! LOL
We called these women “queen bees.” They clawed their way to the top and then did their best to hold other women down.
They seemed to think that the fact that they had “made it” in a hostile to women, male-dominated institution was proof of their own specialness and superiority. More women as successful as they were would dilute that.
Maybe I’m reading too much into your remarks. However, they remind me of all the times I’ve heard successful women stereotyped as bitches, cold-hearted, etc. just because they are using the same skills to achieve success as men use. I’m not convinced that you are accurately describing these work situations. I have a feeling that you’re projecting onto these successful women your own bias.
You don’t know me, and you know nothing of my experiences, but I’ll share a few things with you.
I specifically stated at the beginning of my comments that I’ve had despicable “leaders” of both genders. Two of the men were certifiably narcissistic and had their own degrees of sociopathic tendencies. But I stated in my comments that for purposes of my post I was only discussing two specific situations with females who chose to hold other women down. I also mentioned that it was embarrassing because it fed into the perspective of women in those negative roles.
All of the above situations took place at a Fortune 100 company. Within that company I knew several women who were mentors, but not that many – and certainly not as many as their male counterparts. And certainly not in the environment of which I spoke.
You should also know that I’m in my late 40s and very successful at what I do. I now operate my own business, choose my clients as I please, and I possess the ability to assess those negative tendencies in others, in advance of working with them. And when I observe those traits, I don’t accept contracts with the individuals who exhibit them. Outside the corporate environment, I’ve networked with many, many wonderful, dynamic women who are so very willing to share ideas and contacts. And I think that’s because corporate instills an environment of a zero sum gain (game?)
Starting in my early 20s, I vowed I would never become that individual. During my 26 years in a leadership capacity, I’ve had hundreds of different people reporting to me at various times. I left the corporation many years ago, but dozens of those individuals still call for my advice, and virtually everyone greets me with a warm hug when we meet. I’m very proud of the fact that I cultivated an environment of trust, support and productivity with each separate group. I put my heart into developing them to achieve the next level in a position of their choosing, and I created opportunities for learning each step of the way.
That wasn’t the case with the two women referenced above, and it shows through their past and current relationships. And if you haven’t been a party in such treatment, count your blessings. If you’d like, I can share the stories about the men in another post. But that’s a completely different story.
Thanks for clarifying.
I’ve had awful men and women bosses, too. Poor social skills can happen in either gender. I really appreciate hearing your story. I understand where you’re coming from now and I’m glad that your intent wasn’t the way I was reading it.
I think my back is up a bit because of the DKos fiasco. I feel a bit like the walking wounded right now.
Cheers!
I just wrote a nine paragraph expanded explanation of what I endured, but I chose to delete it because I just don’t have the energy to relive those upsetting experiences. (But I’ll let you know that one of the individuals happened to be my best friend of 28 years until I started contracting with her employer, and she engaged in Jeckyl/Hyde behavior. And after those 28 years I needed to end the friendship after being treated in such a hateful, demeaning manner in the workplace.)
You don’t know me, so you wouldn’t know that I’m an immensely thoughtful, sensitive individual – someone who cries over other people’s pain. (People from this site, who I don’t even know.) When the new members came over, I started censoring my posts, but I chose to discontinue doing so because I’ve been treated with respect by the other BT members – both old and new – no matter what my viewpoints may be. Based on what I witnessed in my discourse with other new members, I had no doubt that I would continue to be treated with respect. Never, under any circumstances – inside or outside of the Internet – have I been accused of being petty or jealous. That’s simply not in my makeup. And I found it completely stunning that a veteran member – who should know better – encouraged your post with a “4”.
I can’t begin to tell you the level of pain I’ve felt for the women who’ve come to this site. You wouldn’t know this, but I was a registered member at Kos when the membership numbers were in 4 digits. And I’ve suffered levels of abuse in the workplace resulting in suicidal tendencies and PTSD. (While not minimizing your experience, it was far beyond the betrayal one feels as a result of a blogsite proprietor’s callous behavior.)
Should you take issue with anything I post in the future, I respectfully request that you ask me to clarify my comments, rather than engaging in hurtful accusations such as those contained in your original post. While I understand what you’ve been through, I spent the last month moving my father to a nursing home (after his diagnosis of advanced Alzheimer’s), working 100+ hours a week to meet critical client deadlines, and serving as the primary support system for not only my 86 year-old mother, but my husband’s family while we deal with my father-in-law’s inoperable brain cancer. And I’m still recovering from the unexpected death of my brother – my lifelong soulmate. During these difficult times, I’ve come to this site for tranquility and support, and I’d like to continue to do so – without concern that someone might lob hurtful name calling in my direction.
Thank you.
peace
Anomalous, your last paragraph is stupefying. How you have borne up under so many painful burdens I don’t know. It really is too much all at once.
I sincerely hope that no smug idiot ever tells you that life or fate or some deity “never gives people more than they can handle.”
I haven’t encountered any smug idiots of any nature. I just didn’t want any site members engaging in name calling toward me (or others) when they don’t know where I’m coming from.
Thank you for your kind words, Susan. I’m hoping this posts, because my last two attempts to post on other threads kicked me off the site, and led me through a circuitous route back.
Good night!
Your story is fascinating and I wish you had posted the longer version. I’m sure it would have been an insightful and enlightening read.
I am, however, taken aback at how hurtful my original post was to you. That was not my intent and I believed that my qualifying statement “Maybe I’m reading too much into your post…” indicated that I was unsure of the accuracy of my initial impression. I’m sorry for any pain I caused you.
Good morning – you’re absolutely right. I probably shouldn’t have deleted the full blown explanations. For someone on the outside, it would have made for an interesting case study, but for me, seeing the issues spelled out in front of me was making me physically ill.
More importantly, if I was going to present an issue potentially charged in emotions, I should have provided an expanded version from the start – not only to avoid any misunderstandings but in sensitivity to the current climate. I will definitely keep full disclosure in mind with future posts. In my initial response to you, I was typing as fast as possible trying to get additional information out there before others may have viewed me as “projecting bias” or representing women in a negative light. The second response was driven by immense hurt mostly from reliving the horrible acts of betrayal. Believe it or not, I think before I post – but in this instance, the problem stemmed from thinking about everything too much. I had no intention of blindsiding you with my comments.
After experiencing the toxic environment created by the former friend, I was prompted to research the subject of workplace bullying. If the subject is of any interest to you, here’s a link to a page from one of the better sites: http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/bully.htm The site also addresses bullying in any environment (work, home, school, etc.) I could go on and on about the truly sick behaviors – all of which went far beyond a lack of social skills, and genuinely involved psychotic tendencies. I’ve worked for individuals who lack social skills (my 2-year stint in an actuarial department comes to mind :-), and they’re a ray of sunshine in comparison. (And again, I’ve worked for truly hateful men, but those experiences didn’t fit into the context of the issues I was presenting.)
With utmost sincerity, I wish you peace, and a wonderful day.
Well, I can certainly understand where you’re coming from. The Kos brouhaha certainly brought back tons of ugly memories for me that I had swept under the carpet years ago. I did a lot of emotional posting there…something that’s very uncommon for me. When wounds get re-opened, that is often the case.
To be honest, when I stop and think about it, the two worst bosses I had were women. Bummer. I guess when I look back at those experiences, I think of their actions and not so much their gender. I don’t know if their gender had anything to do with their behaviors or not. Maybe they felt more under pressure to prove themselves? Who knows. I believe one was mentally ill and the other was simply very unqualified for her position.
Anyway…I will check out the bullying in the workplace website you pointed me to. It should teach me a bit of where you’re coming from. Take care and, no worries, no hard feelings. 🙂
That’s called Queen Bee Syndrome in women’s studies, Anomalous (no picnic, and it does exist among so-called ‘progressives’).
Horizontal hostility (factionalization) is an equally divisive dichotomy–very toxic stuff.
Although, it tends to be covert/sneaky–equally as damaging.
See Gerda Lerner’s books re: patriarchy (i.e., whoring out to it, why, its history, and concrete tips re: how to conquer it to the best of one’s ability, as it’s structural in nature).
http://psychology.about.com/cs/lernergerda/
I’m glad you understand. It truly aligns with narcissist disorders, and they thrive on drama and power. And when you observe the difference between men and women, it’s stunning. Because, as you said, the women are underhanded in doing so, but the men are overtly aggressive and typically don’t hide their motives.
I’d like to add again, I’m friends with many women in the upper levels of their fields – who are tremendously giving of their time and ideas. And I’ve helped women to achieve positions more successful than mine. My original example was cited to make a point regarding one contributing factor toward wage disparity.
I’m hardly a petty individual motivated by bias. But if the poster above chooses not to believe that, I’m certainly not going to enter a pointless battle.
What you’re describing is the Bush women…
amazingly assisting an administration to roll back
the very things that enabled them to succeed.
It’s certainly clear from the judges who were confirmed
recently that one can be racist and sexist, against
one’s own sex and race.
I feel Karl Rove has the “Clarence Thomas” strategy
where they must scour the country looking for the type
of people you are describing.
I’m big in the upaid work category since I was a visual artist while I was a single parent. (One day I will have the stats on the number of men painters in group exhbitions vs women painters, throughout recent art history. hahahaha).
More Canadian stats, most people in the working poor/poverty category are women. Guess we just do not know how to save. Save? I couldn’t even put aside change for the coin operated washing machines – it kept disappearing. It was a joke among my single-mother-friends, that our kids could not keep their hands off the laundry change.
But I survived; the kids survived and excelled beyond my expectations so right now I am a happy ex-warrior, proud of my service.
There aren’t any pie charts.
</snark>
I walked out of my office building to do an errand earlier and the first thing that caught my eye was a cab that had an ad for Air America Radio and it was a picture of Al Franken holding a cherry pie!! I couldn’t help but laugh out loud at the irony!
Aren’t Jungian synchronicities fun?
wow — impressive vocabulary!!
anyway, now that i think about it, it was probably an apple pie, not cherry, since the background was the american flag.
Merci, Jerome, for putting together this information.
That 30-or-so percent differential will buy a lot of gateaux.
So discouraging, though, that there’s been so little overall improvement in the last 20 years.
This is the real issue.
Women leave science and engineering careers twice
as much as men.
I cannot find the reference, but somewhere I read that
for women electrical engineers the drop out rate for the
career, after 1 year on the job is 70%.
.
Break in trend -1974- real earnings for full time male workers, coincidence with Nixon’s Impeachment?
Oui aka @dKos as creve coeur and new creve coeur
WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooTrib aka lost treasure of dKos
This stuff happened in Switzerland in the eighties and nineties. My mom is a computer specialist (trained as a physicist) and has pretty much always worked.
Soon after moving to Geneva, find out that the laundry room is only open from 8-6 M-F and 8-11 Sat. She complains to the building management that there’s no way we can do laundry in those hours (the Sat slot was already filled up). Response – well why aren’t you staying home like a proper mother and wife should. Of course until about ten years ago a wife needed her husband’s permission to work in Switzerland – the old Napoleonic Code status laws.
Working in an intl. org – long hard struggle to be taken seriously.
Then in an American multinational. Asks for a raise. Boss tells her: Why should I give you a raise, you’re a woman, you should feel lucky you have a job.
Moves to a Swiss multinational for almost double the pay. First professional woman to work there. Constantly harassed by men resentful that she’s taking one of ‘their’ jobs.
I should also add that sexism was not a universal response among the men she has worked with. She first went into IT in the seventies in the US. The salary was extremely low, not because she was a woman but because she had no experience in the field . Her managers gave her a succession of large raises as she demonstrated her value.
At the US multinational in Switzerland many of her (male) coworkers were outraged at her treatment (both the boss and the co-workers were non-American, mostly Swiss and French). She was working on a contract for the local govt. and when they heard what happened they decided not to renew the contract.
At the Swiss multinational her boss and her boss’s boss were the exception to the sexist rule. And the coworkers were virulently racist as well as sexist – constantly making very ugly comments about their bosses (one was Vietnamese, the other Jewish).
Happened to my mom, a journalist in the Midwest but often sent to Washington. Every time she had a baby (many), my father — working for the same company — got the raise.
It so got to one of my brothers, bless him, that he gave up a good law firm and now is a litigator for the EEOC (for as long as it survives under the current Bush administration budget-cutting onslaught).
A lot of this is exacerbated by the wealth gap, which hurts everyone. I’m not really sure what my point is since I’m just out the door, but I do think that in the battle to raise average income levels, we’d see more upside for everyone by focusing on the wealth gap. In conjunction with new or continuing policies to shrink the gender gap, you’d see income levels for women rise even faster.
I agree. The widening “wealth gap” is exacerbating all the income disparities among groups.
Thanks, Jerome.
I know there are many men who stand with us in the fight against sexism.
While I’m more than capable of speaking up for myself, forty years of this has taught me that a significant proportion of men will dismiss anything I say about discrimination against women because I AM ONE. The belief that I’m an inferior, a sex object or their Mom
invalidates everything I say.
Because they take male superiority for granted, they don’t care what I think.
BUT THEY CARE WHAT OTHER MEN THINK.
Yes, they do, because being safe is all about being accepted in the group. Only when enough men reject sexism will the followers get on board.
I don’t have to tell YOU the courage required for a man of conscience to take an unpopular stand. While I don’t know your story, I’ve seen my male comrades suffer much worse as “sexual traitors” than I did as an uppity female; the fear generated by having one of their own break rank was disproportionate and terrible.
When you say “I don’t agree”, “I don’t like that”, or “I think you’re wrong” to sexism, it speaks to that percentage of men who can not, will not hear women. But it also speaks to the many, many men who are uncomfortable with discrimination, but hesitant to buck the tide. You show them that there is more than one way to be a man.
Were it not for the example of men like you, I for one would have written off half the human race a long time ago.
how much of wage discrepencies boil down to the type of work? I’m guessing firemen, policemen, and construction workers on average make a lot more money than secretaries (just because the nature of the work, not the sex of the person doing it).
I say that, because that big blanket number that women make X less then men can be very misleading, and manipulated easily by how you define your data set.
Also, those high income professional jobs which are 70% male would really, really mess up the data curve. I mean, 70 male lawyers making $10,000,000 compared to 30 female lawyers making the same is really going to screw up the whole equation when comparing all workers.
Looking at their “methodology” on some of these studies…
There’s a wealth of links, analysis, and discussion on this issue over at Alas in Ampersand’s Wage Gap Series.
thanks for the link, will look it over. I just want to see how the data is used, hopefully this will help.
One thing you might note, pacified, (and you probably already realize this, but just in case . . .) since the average salaries Jerome references above are medians, you don’t need to worry much about the outlier salaries you cite skewing things. It’s the overall effects of occupational segregation that matter.
Thanks from me, too, IndyLib, for the link–I found it fascinating.
I’ve read that a lot of it is owing to the lack of collective bargaining — unions — in “women’s fields.” Often, by law.
In my state, K-12 teachers were denied collective bargaining for years, but won it. Now I’m in the only work group still denied it by law, state university teachers . . . but we don’t get support from the K-12 teachers (many of whom now make more than many of us) to get the law changed.
So sometimes, we have to start thinking and working more collectively and seeing the larger picture, too.
University professors cannot unionize in Wisconsin! My university has a union, and I have been involved with it a bit. I wish I could say that it is a powerful and effective voice for the faculty. It is sometimes, but the the bullshit I have seen go on . . .
The privilege / discrimination component of sexism is largely unconscious even among people who disapprove. It takes concerted effort to overcome ingrained belief systems. Without a commitment to examine what we do and why we do it, evaluated in a social and historical context, we’ll live out our lives on auto-pilot.
Education helps.
In 1983, in an article in the journal, Sex Roles, vol.9, Paludi and Bauer conducted a study in which 360 college students (half male, half female), were asked to evaluate an article (abridged to 1500 words) in the field of politics, or psychology of women, or education, that was written (supposedly) by Joan T. McKay, John T. McKay, or J. T. McKay. The study found that the evaluations depended quite significantly on whether the name on the student’s paper was female or male or inconclusive (J. T.), with, not surprisingly, higher ratings going to the male author, whether or not the student was male or female.
Men used to be radically overrepresented in national orchestras because the men in charge believed women had less wind power and were biologically incapable of superior musical performance on all but a few instruments. Blind auditions show that it was almost entirely discrimination which had kept women out.
Studies like this have been replicated time and time again using paintings, architectural drawings, battle plans, literature, etc. It is not surprising that the more “traditionally masculine” the field, the more John’s authorship is valued over Joan’s.
Men have a vested interest in the status quo because sexism gives them the clear competitive advantage, and a culture predominated by male values reinforces the stereotypes which perpetuate the system. I hardly need mention that the less power women have, the more sexual access to them is enjoyed by men who, in an egalitarian world, would never get laid.
This, in a nutshell, is the problem with media that depict women in demeaning ways.
Did you like this post ?
I can even make it just a little bit better by signing it “stevenw”.
I remember reading years ago about a study (and my memory will probably cause me to get some of it wrong) that was done in public school classrooms. Grad students simply observed and wrote down things like who the teacher made eye contact with, which students they called on, their response to student answers, etc. Male and female teachers.
All claimed that they treated the boys and the girls equally. But the boys got much more eye contact, were called on more frequently, and most tellingly to my teacher’s sensibilities, when students answered questions, the percentage of times there was no comment made after a student answered a question was very much higher for the girls. While the teacher usually said something – “That’s right!” or “Well, no, actually the answer is . . .” – after a boy answered.
How does one fight this? A girl will hardly protest that the teacher rarely makes eye contact with her, or rarely responds verbally to a question she answers in class. But it sends a message that students pick up on subconsciously about whose contribution is more valued.
And iirc, all of the teachers denied that they did these things until they were shown the data.
I think we keep talking about it.
Glad you reminded me of the classroom studies. I’d not thought of those in years. There as another one where teachers were given the names of children in their class who were expected to display huge intellectual growth spurts during the school year. The teachers were instructed to watch those youngsters and take notes, but to treat them no differently that their classmates. The selected children did, in fact make tremendous advances, as predicted. Only at the experiment’s close were the teachers told that the children had been picked at random.
Gives me the shivers to realize how much power we wield unconsciously.
As you say, it’s the automatic nature of these responses that are at odds with what we believe about ourselves that make the problem so daunting.
My favourite was the shared dorm room study that paired a white male subject with a black male tester.
The black men did all the household tasks: cooking, cleaning, shopping, etc. Within a day, the white men were busting their butts to get things done before their roommates could do them. In the post-experiment interviews, the subjects related a very high level of discomfort that a black man was acting like a servant. They reported feeling guilt and anxiety.
In phase two, the paired students were men and women. As in phase one, the women did all the domestic work. Their roommates didn’t even notice. Even in the ending interview, when asked how they felt about having a roommate, most of the subjects said it was fine. The testers had to explain to then that they had been test subjects. Even then, some had to read the phase one study before they got it. Woman as servant is the NORM, therefore invisible.
I find these studies fascinating, significant and important. Did you see them on the front page of your local paper? Neither did I. We’re fighting a body of traditions and attitudes so pervasive and so advantageous to those in power that forty years into the fight, ANY small insight, any little victory, any chink of light in the darkness, merits celebration.
Let’s party, Janet, them go fight some more.
A lot of what’s been going around lately has reminded me that people don’t change their way of looking at the world easily or quickly. I thought a lot about Lakoff and framing starting last Fall when it was the hot topic. I still think about it although many seem to be sick of the subject and have now dismissed it. A mistake, I think, due to our short attention spans. I’m always surprised at how many good ideas are discarded because, really, deep down, people are just bored and want to move on to something new. So they start picking at the concept’s flaws and limitations (and of course there are flaws and limitations to the “framing” concept, but that doesn’t mean that there’s not also some good ideas to take and work with), but really, they’re just bored.
When it comes to political views, I think too many just want to explain political reality to anyone who votes R or considers themselves “conservative,” and if that person doesn’t immediately switch over to being a liberal, then they are dismissed as stupid, and not worth talking to any further.
LIkewise, on these kinds of gender issues, the message is “oh please, give it a rest” this is boring now.
But it takes time to shift one’s viewpoint, and work. One “explanation” or even two or three, don’t do it. The shift comes from a bit here, a piece there, that gradually weaves itself into a new viewpoint.
The thing is, one has to care enough about others to want to be willing to stick with the process, to keep trying to see things from their point of view. A white person can’t simply declare, racism is ridiculous, I’m not a racist, and think they see the world as someone who is not white does.
So yes, we have to keep plugging away to provide those small insights. However, the work is only worthwhile if we are sending them in the direction of someone who is open and cares enough to do their own work of changing their view point. Beating one’s head against a brick wall is a waste of energy that could be more productively directed elsewhere.
Here’s one tidbit that teachers can use. A study showed that girls tended to wait longer to put up their hands to answer questions or speak out in the classroom. Why? Because they were more concerned that their answer be correct, and they pause a few seconds to do an internal check – am I sure this is the right answer? I think this is because they pay a higher price for being wrong – they are more likely to receive an embarrassing put-down of some kind if they are. Boys’ incorrect answers are more likely to be met with, “Nice try,” or “That’s not exactly it,” or “Why don’t you think about it a minute and try again,” etc. All said with a smile.
What can a teacher do with this small insight? Simply wait a few seconds before calling on a student. I teach at the college level and I don’t “call on” students – they just speak up. But when I taught science once a week at my daughter’s school when she was elementary age, it was amazing how that little pause let me watch first the boys hands shoot up almost before I’d finished the question and then one by one, the girls hands go up. By pausing, rather than just calling on the first student to get a hand up, I could much more easily call on girls as often as boys. But the “first one with a hand up gets called on” left me calling on boys almost every time.
All these little things add up. And that’s the fundamental point. All the little things add up. It’s really hard to fight a million snowflakes swirling around you. It’s so easy to be ridiculed for trying to fight something as small and insubstantial as a snowflake. But you can be buried in the snow if you don’t.
I am willing to bet that the on-the-ground work you do with young people affects more real change than all the blistering polemics I may churn out in a year. Modeling egalitarianism and redressing past inequalities sound great on paper, but you’re DOING it.
I am uplifted this morning reading your post. When I feel discouraged, I’ll think of Our Lady Janet of the Trenches, quietly working small miracles every day. All of my dearest friends are teachers, and their stories of daily chipping away at unfairness and shoring up civil behavior (often in spite of backward, self-serving administrators) make me laugh with pleasure. Better yet, some of them are becoming the administrators.
Maybe REAL revolutions only come in baby steps. I don’t mean the traditional revolution where societal structure stays virtually the same while some of the players swap places, but positive change to most just and equitable institutions.
I HAVE to get to work, or my favourite causes will lose one of their funding sources. ME.
Thank you for talking to me Janet. You’ve given me so much to think about and a reason to feel happy.
(Oh hell…you’re a teacher, too. I’d better run spellcheck…….damn, and my punctuation tends to randomness……and sometimes I find Henry James wandering, lost amid my rambling, digressive sentence structure…)
DO YOU KNOW THAT “spellcheck” GLOWS RED AS A SPELLING ERROR ???? I’m laughing too hard type !!!!!!