Gender and Power
What I have learned about gender and power was not learned in a classroom, but over 64 years of living life in America as a woman born into a small town, male dominated fundamentalist 1940 culture. I finally escaped this world in my 40’s, to discover an entire new world of powerful women I honestly did not know even existed., who took me by the hand, dragged me back from the edge of death from end stage alcoholism, and patiently, over a period of years, helped me “de-program” myself, and discover who I was all along. On this long journey, I learned even more about power and gender.
I knew gender was about power as soon as I could walk and talk. I was a smart kid. I knew boys and men had all the power, and could do and be however they liked, and girls women had none, and could only do and be what males and their good women (our mothers) allowed.. I was completely pissed because I was born a girl. But there I was, like it or not, and as far as I knew, the whole world was like this, so what to do but go along, because eventually, I got tired of getting beaten for refusing to
So thus, I became Mrs Goodwife a.k.a. Supermom like I was supposed to. (I really wanted to be army officer.) I did my best to follow the rules and roles assigned to me by the powerful gender structure (read church) who taught me I was created to be of selfless service to husband, family, church, community, and God, always, of course with a gracious smile. I pulled it off too, by becoming a closet alcoholic. It all came to a screeching halt when I was 29, the husband died, and there I was with two kids and no education and my little brown jug.
My friends and family went searching for a new man for me. (No thanks, been there, done that, not a good fit for me. ) Men came out of the woodwork to offer “solace” to the poor widow. (Yeah, right, get lost, bucko!) I was too busy hammering out an education, becoming an RN so I could support my kids, and didn’t have to sell my soul to anyone to survive. I got the job done and will leave a solid legacy of two very powerful daughters and two powerful grand daughters to carry on wherever I leave off.
Along this way I learned a lot more about gender and power, most of it the hard way, of course. I was and am very aware of the strides made to more equally distribute gender power and was a part of that change. My oldest grand daughter (in law school now) never doubted she could be and so and say whatever she pleased. I hope to stick around long enough to be there for her when she discovers, as I have, that change can look a lot bigger on the surface, than it really is underneath.
The same gender based, hierarchal power structure that ruled my early life is really still there, only much more covert and manipulative now. Let me tell you how I discovered this, by sharing only one of many examples. (ok, so I am often a slow learner 🙂
I have many useful leadership skills. I communicate well, write well, and know how to motivate and empower others. I see the”bigger picture” and am very effective at organizing and getting new projects up and running . (I could tell you how many years it took for me to be able to write a clear and honest an appraisal of my own skills, without feeling the need to minimize or denigrate them, but I won’t!)
This has made me quite attractive to organizations looking for volunteers. Now that the kids are raised, and disability has curtailed my options, I am more than willing, even eager to find online opportunities to use my skills for causes I believe in. So I got involved with a new sobriety organization on line, and was welcomed with open arms by it’s founder, a very charismatic, seemingly enlightened and respectful man. Before I knew it, I was elected to the board, and given a free reign to set up an online meeting project, a task I embraced, and spent most of a year donating almost full time hours to. It was wonderfully satisfying work, with a successful outcome that is still helping many who need non AA recovery support. I do not regret doing this in any way.
Yet this all ended with me being tarred, feathered, and shown the door. How could that be, you ask?
Here’s how. I stepped outside the circle of the power “granted” to me by this particular “monarch.” I refused to obey a request to align myself with him in forcing a new direction I believed was harmful to the organization. I was not compliant. I did not bow or defer to his wishes. Not only that, I was asking way too many questions about the organizational structure itself. There were many people there who respected me. I became..in a word, a threat to the established power structure, and I had to be “invited” to leave. It was very ugly, because I did not leave easily. I did leave, once I came to see that his power extended over entire board, who sat silently by, and watched the character assassination and gender slams without a word. (and when my BP climbed to the freakin ceiling.) He was king, it was his kingdom, and he had succeeded once again, with me, to sucker in someone whose skills he need to further his own goals, with NO real intent to ever share one shred of “real” power or control. I hate to think of how many other times I’ve been sucked in like this. But this one finally did it for me. No more.
When I discovered Kos, once again my antennae perked up. For a while, I thought perhaps I’ve found another venue where my gender wouldn’t matter to how my opinions and contributions were valued. When all hell broke loose over there, I went numb awhile, it was rather hard to believe my own eyes at first: an awful case of deja vu that bordered on flashbacks bcause I didn’t see it coming. One MORE time I am hearing “There’s the door, don’t let it hit you in the ass on the way out!” from a another man I once respected who happens to own some powerful turf. Same shit, different day, so long.
So why am I over here now, on Boo Mans turf, once again contributing?
Because right now, men still own the most powerful turf, like it or not.
Because I am not ready to give up my search to find men with powerful turf who are courageous enough to go inward to root our any programmed sexism that may be exerting control over them without their awareness.
Because BooMan is saying all the right words and making all the right moves right now, in my opinion, and he just may be for real.
Because I do not usually function well in all female groups. You see, I’ve been down the separatist road, where my whole life was spent in all women’s groups. I don’t belong there either. I learned during my “reconstruction,” that ALL men weren’t assholes, and some women are! I’ve learned that there really are men who are not stuck in some macho, superior self concept, who could and do relate me as a true equal in all respects and I call many of them dear friends.
I want to work with men like this, and with powerful women who do not feel the need to defer to anyone else’s power, because I believe that if we can ever get past this goddam gender war, what we could actually accomplish together, by blending our attributes and strengths cannot even be imagined.
I was affected, but not devastated by what happened at Kos, I am too used to the charade of”shared gender power”. I no longer willingly offer blind trust or full commitment to any gender powered organization, male or female. (Men aren’t the only ones who get corrupted by power: women do too.)
I am no longer running around the world like a supplicant, with my contributions in outstretched arms, begging for someone in power to “Here Please let me offer you my skills!” just because my gender is female and the male gender has more power than mine does. I know my worth now. If others cannot see it, it’s their loss, not mine. (You don’t want to know how much soul wrenching hard work went into being able to write that paragraph.)
No, I am no longer willing to remain, much less contribute anywhere where I cannot lay down my sexism shield and protective “woman-armor” and just get on with the work. I stayed at Kos till it became very apparent that wasn’t one of them. “Stay and fight” , some say Well, men really, really do need to stop asking women to do all the hard work of fixing them, and become motivated enough to fix themselves.
When gender ever stops being all about power, if it ever does, we stand a chance or working well together. But as long as I am expected, as a female, to defer to the more powerful gender structure that exists, and allow it to dictate the parameters of my own power and how I express it, this is no level playing field, folks. Not by a long shot.
So I continue to go my own solitary way, with pit stops here and here, at welcoming way side rests like this one. BooMan, I think you and your crew are in a prime position right now, to be a leader in doing it all differently, and to reap the rewards for the hard work this will entail. I wish you the very best and will stick around awhile to support this however I can.
ONward!
What a marvelous story! I hope by your pen name that you write–it seems to me that your story needs to be told to the wider world.
I am also “in recovery.” It took a long, long time to realize my inherent worth. Doing so has changed my relationships with men and women for the better.
I, too, feel that there is good energy here, that we can all move forward to take on the tasks ahead of us. Thank you so much for sharing yourself here.
>”Stay and fight” , some say Well, men really, really do need to stop asking women to do all the hard work of fixing them, and become motivated enough to fix themselves.<
Exactly my point! Thank You for your story.
Agreed!
People (i.e. “Why does it bother you so much? What can we do to change?” men) already KNOW what we think they should be doing…they just want you to justify why they should have to do it.
If I wanted to handhold three-year-olds I’d go seek out some three-year-olds.
“If I wanted to handhold three-year-olds I’d go seek out some three-year-olds”
LOL sooo true
well stated and passionate! Not much more I could be looking for. I am mighty darn proud to be cavorting anywhere near the places you frequent!!!
Thanks for sharing this much of your story with us. I’m with Lorraine. . .I really think the greater commnity of the nation could find enormous value in your story. . .have you time for a book, I hope you will consider it.
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A unilateral force at that, in civilian clothes but powerful: including two daughters and two granddaughters. Hope you will find green turf here at BooMan’s Tribune (BMT) with a lot of support to move forward on our political goals.
I’m sure you will find more troops here who will volunteer and join in that mighty army of yours.
I can understand you are very proud of such a fine family. Thanks for sharing your inspiring bio. I salute you.
Oui aka @dKos as creve coeur and new creve coeur
WELCOME: Make Yourself Known @BooTrib aka lost treasure of dKos
As we say in my spiritual tradition: So mote it be.
That’s some mighty fine writing you have there. I found myself nodding in agreement several times.
‘Stay and fight’, some say. I say ‘I’ve been fighting this for decades. When do I get a chance to be away from the front? When does it get to be not my turn?”.
‘Tell us how to fix it’, some say. I say ‘Am I your mother? Is it my job to tell you how to treat others ethically? You never call, you never write, go pick up your room and stop pestering me.’
I am more than willing to work with others on the issues of gender and race, but I’m not going to do their heavy lifting for them.
The biggest challenge I’ve faced, in trying hard to help the fellas in my own life, who have asked for help in understanding sexism better is that so many of their beliefs are so deeply ingrained they don’t even know they’re there. Even with a sincere desire to understand, it takes a lot of introspection to unearth those deeply imbedded beliefs one learned from cradle on. I remember one sincere guy who got so frustrated, and said..”But I DON’T think I’m superior to women!!” And it was true, he didn’t, in his rational “today” mind! But in time, as we went along exploring the things he was taught about who he was, from early on, he began to see how they had affected his attitudes and interactions, without his awareness, and it was a real eye opener for him. Just as it was an eye opener for me, as I spent my own time looking hard at my own sexist attitudes toward men..and believe you me, I had a boatload of them, and am still working on changing myself. I learn more all the time: this stuff goes deep.
G.K. Chesterton got it, sort of:
It is that they can’t see the problem.
Don’t ask me for a more specific reference. It was on a tear-off page for the Little Zen Calendar several years ago, and I saved it for obvious reasons.
Some details vary, Scribe, but mi historia es su historia. I have finally learned to say No. No, I am not going to do it all, hold your hand, clean up your mess. I am going to do what I need to do in this world.
And you know what? There’s no more guilt, either. That’s a heavy trip they lay on us.
You’ve written a powerful and courageous statement. Thank you for illustrating that so much of what we’re really talking about with the shorthand “women’s issues” concerns the intersection of gender with power and hierarchy.
The accepted organizational structure, for organizations big and small, profit and not-for-profit, private and public, is that freakin’ pyramid where some privileged soul gets to sit godlike at the top. Most of the time it’s a privileged soul with a penis, but not always.
Along with the pyramid structure goes the idea that the higher up on the pyramid you sit, the “better” and more deserving you are. More deserving of money, authority, heightened social status, big cars, McMansions, better health care, protection from crime . . . the list goes on ad nauseam.
And how do you climb that pyramid? From the examples I’ve observed in corporate life, your best chance is to be at least a borderline sociopath. The more you care about your fellow beings, the less likely you will be perceived as having the best interests of the organization at heart. If you are disinclined to practice deception and have a habit of saying what you think, you’ll most likely be treated as a threat to the almighty, unassailable organization.
And, of course, American society is one big organization. And there’s that damned pyramid again.
I guess you’d say my main political focus is taking care of the bottom layers of the pyramid, the folks without the power. All too often, those folks are women and children.
And let’s not forget the environment, which doesn’t even show up on the organizational chart.
It is about power. And, I submit that women and men see and use power differently (allowing for some wide variations).
I went to college with a woman who is the CEO of a Financial Times 100 company. There is only one so you can discover her name if you are interested. We had a discussion about power and its uses a couple of years ago. The gist was that men use power to control and force others to do things while women use power to facilitate change. It is slower, but a much more pleasant experience for all.
I can tell you stories about male admission officers for graduate school who asked about whether I would use a graduate degree or “just get married”. I have also had males work under me who were obviously irritated by my position, didn’t matter that I had more education and experience.
But, I have also had male bosses who were gems, and male assistants who were delights. And, I have had female bosses who were less than delightful.
I agree that it’s time to quit holding the hands of three year olds. They really do know what has to be done.
>>The gist was that men use power to control and force others to do things while women use power to facilitate change. <<
I think theres a lot of truth in that. On the other hand, in my profession, (nursing), it’s amazing how much it often mimics the typical power-over structure. They say nurses eat their own, and unfortunately, in my own experince, that was pretty true.
I think it takes considerable maturity and introspection to be in any power position, and stay balanced.
Good writing-thanks!
Two years ago I left the spiritual practice, Zen Buddhism, that I’d been completely involved in mostly because of the power thing and gender weirdness. Although I truly believe Buddhism to be liberation theology at its finest, most of the convert sects require some level of submission to a teacher/guru/roshi at the higher levels. While this can be a handy tool for learning how huge one’s ego can get there’s lots and lots of room for abuses of various kinds and there have been some egregious examples of this by mostly male but also female priests. Often there’s no oversight on these teachers unless their own teachers are still around, not that this always works (just look at the Catholic church).
The head priest at the temple I used to belong to liked to dabble in pop psychology and unfortunately did not recognize that some of his students needed a check-up from the neck up. They caused other members a lot of grief but those complaining were told to “practice with it”. Both of the priests at the temple also had some pretty rigid views of gender issues but they covered them up by saying these were archetypes to work with. I began feeling that archetypes=stereotypes. Because they were and always would be the authority, there was really no way to work these issues out.
I have found other schools of Buddhism that aren’t so teacher-focused and am a hell of a lot more comfortable in my faith now.
I hear you, Soup. Along my search of many different kinds of spiritual practice, I ran into a variety of “leaders and teachers” who intentionally or unintentionally caused harm to others. In fact, I’ve grown leery of anyone who sets themselves up as aany kind of spiritual “leader”, until I’ve watched them in operation for a long time. Way too many are not coming from a very clear or balanced center, if you ask me. Glad you found a more comfortable place to poractice.
Agreed, Soup, on almost all counts. And, like Scribe, I’ve seen too many gurus of various persuasions turn out to have clay feet. I’ve always instinctively avoided them, but some friends have been hurt.
I find Buddhism the most valuable spiritual form for me so far, and I make up my own version–some Zen, a touch of Tao, a smidgen of Tibetan. No roshi, no zen master, no teachers other than friends, books, my own practice, a sangha I sit with occasionally. Now that I’ve been practicing (one of these years, I’ll get it right <g>) for some years, I’m thinking of seeking out a teacher.
I wouldn’t trust a teacher (other than those whose books I read) until I’d established a path for myself. And I’ve been working on that (though I’ve only seriously been exploring Buddhism for the last four months or so).
It may be a bit off-topic, but I’m feeling like I’ve died and been reborn (the Buddhist version of “died and gone to heaven”?) to actually be able to read posts by Buddhists discussing their practice here! I can’t tell you how long I’d waited to see such a discussion on “that other blog”. I even wrote two diaries in an attempt to start such a discussion, to no avail.
I love your sig, by the way.
About 90 percent of your background story matches mine. Age 66, clued in early to the power structure, hated being a girl. I, too, ended up hospitalized with acute alcoholism. Recovery gave me eyes to see and started the path to recognizing who I am. I am forever grateful.
Steps along the way meant shelving a marriage, returning to the work I loved (newspapering), making my own way. Now, I choose to live independently, the fight was hard won. Now, I work at writing, my life’s desire. Now, my sons have given me two daughters-in-law, five granddaughters and one grandson to cherish.
I truly think we will never give them a more perfect world. Our gift to them is our strength, our models.
I wouldn’t/couldn’t have accomplished what I did in my life if it hadn’t been for the image in my head of my mother’s strength. So, I wish to leave that for my granddaughters and my grandson.
My mother never finished high school. She went to work in the textile mills at age 13. She stood about 5′ tall and was afflicted with arthritis of the spine.
Two things she said stuck with me.
“It took me until my 40s to realize I can do anything.”
And the second was her reaction to power plays:
“Kiss my ass.”
>>And the second was her reaction to power plays:
“Kiss my ass.”
Your Mom is the kind of woman I truly admire. I am glad you had her.
for your kind comments and encouragement re: writing. Yes. I write: it is my first love. I began journaling in grade school, and never stopped writing since.It has been my solace, my strength and my joy.
and well told. I have left dKos for many reasons but the primary one is that I never got the “girls are icky” thing when I was a child and I still don’t. Of course I get it intellectually but I just don’t feel that way. I’m weird – so shoot me 🙂
I wrote this diary on gender issues a little while ago in order to see if I could ger some unheated discussion. It’s going well so far.
Glad to find you here!
Your contributions to MilitaryTracy’s diary on dKos last night were invaluable, and I have enjoyed your work in other dKos diaries over the past few months.
I look forward to reading your diary after I work through the comments on this one.
I am a man, but I have a good idea what you’re going through. In my last job, I was basketball manager for a college team and got really popular with both the other coaches and the players. My boss, who was a very controlling person, felt threatened and created a hostile environment by falsely accusing me of stuff and acting rude to me. I finally stood up to him and walked out. I don’t think I surprised anybody but him.
Some bosses adopt a hands-off policy and don’t understand that they can still be controlling people. They adopt that kind of approach as a way of lying to themselves that they’re NOT controlling when in fact, they are the most controlling people in the world.
Forgive me for injecting an unpleasantness into this great discussion, but what you said here
just rang a large bell: It is an excellent description of our current chief executive. And of a good portion of the power structure, I think.
Bush is addicted to war as a game, much like a teenager is addicted to war games and will spend hours playing it if you as a parent don’t stop it. Addicts are controlling because they do not want to be bothered with the facts; they would intrude on their addiction.
Even though Bush gave up alcohol, that does not mean he quit being an addictive person. Instead, and much more dangerously for our country, he became a war addict. And Cheney and a bunch of other people are enablers because they fueled his addiction by promising him glory. I think Cheney, Jeb, Perle, and some other PNAC types developed the plan to invade Iraq before the 2000 election and then sold Bush on the plan.
And Bush is lying to himself if he says that Jesus saved him from his addictions. He engages in the same kind of addictive behavior today that he did back in the 1970’s.
Bravo! Excellent diary. You are an admirable woman, you are.
Your post reminded me of a long-forgotten memory. I, too, hated being a girl. I’m sitting here dumbfounded how I could have tucked these memories away. I clearly remember running to my room screaming and crying how I hated myself and wanted to die because I was a girl and how I wanted to be a boy. I don’t recall the catalyst exactly. I remember my mom crying and trying to convince me how wonderful it was to be a girl. I remember my dad trying to “talk some sense into me.” I just remember I felt horrid.
I know this wasn’t a one time event but I’m not recalling how often this occurred or for what period of time. Over a few days? Months? Years? I just know it happened more than once.
I do, however, vividly recall the pain of maturing young. And my mother proudly taking me to get my first bra while I recoiled in disgust. Of course, the first period which came along in 4th grade was even worse. Crap….I HATED being a girl.
Somewhere along the line acceptance grew. I suppose it began during my early teens. I am definitely a girl. I’m attracted to boys…well, men nowadays. I enjoy being a mother. I’m married to a wonderful man that I adore.
However, I have never clicked with most women. I find myself more comfortable in the company of men. I don’t fit in in conversations with groups of women for the most part. I’m 47 and I can count on one hand my women friends. And even most of them make me weary if I see them too often.
I don’t know where this is going. Interesting memories coming forth that you triggered in me…I need to stop and consider this a bit. Thanks!
>>I remember my mom crying and trying to convince me how wonderful it was to be a girl. I remember my dad trying to “talk some sense into me.” I just remember I felt horrid.
From my own experience, this is an experience many of us have had, funkycamper. It led me to a period of seriously studying gender itself, to try to understand why I also could never relate or fit in very well in all womens settings. My reading left me aware that there is a full gender spectrum, not just the two poles of male and female. Most of my women friends in days of old were way over on the female end of the spectrum, and I wasn’t, thus couldn’t relate to them as they could relate with each other. It also explained why I too, was often more comfortable hanging out with the guys watching the footballs games, rather than with the women gathered in kitchen. 🙂 Yet, I’ve no desire to “become” a male either. I just want to be who I am.
room on the couch for me?
My parents were both very strong and independent. My Mom played sports in high school, and had a very successful interior decorating business. My father built, and turned up, power plants.
I have five brothers, the first nine years older (from my Mom’s first marriage) then me, then my four younger brothers. I was raised in a (small d) democratically run family. No job had a role attached to it. I mixed cement with Dad, while my brothers lemon oiled the furniture, did dishes, and folded laundry with Mom.
We kids all gave each other, and took from each other, verbal, and sometimes physically, punches numerous times a day.
Can you see the trains approaching on the same track? When in high school, in the early 60’s, I decided that I was going to be a fireman, drummer, or graphic design artist?
Can you hear the train whistles and see the sparks from the wheels locking up on the tracks? I was told by more people than I care to count that- No, there were no female firemen, no female drummers, and if I thought I’d, as a girl, be going to art school alone in Los Angeles, I was crazy.
The horror, devastation, carnage, and twisted wreckage took 25 years to clear. It involved a bad thirteen year marriage, a beautiful son, several other bad relationships, total loss of self esteem, huge weight gain, some drug use to lose weight, counseling, and a period where my father and I did not speak.
Today, I work in a field where the female/male employee ratio is almost 50/50, same pay for same job, sexual harassment is grounds for immediate dismissal, and respect is mutual. I’m in a wonderful relationship with a man I say has an extra female gene. He is not the typical testosterone charged man, and I’m not a weepy woman. We are a perfect match for each other.
The greatest gift we can give our female children and grandchildren is the gift of independence. Being able to provide for themselves, to stand up for who they are are, and to believe they are capable of anything. Those gifts can never be taken away for them, unless they themselves give them up.
Funky Camper, this is so interesting to me! I, too, remember not wanting to be a girl. There were 8 of us, 7 girls and one boy and my mother constantly said how she would rather have all boys, and how it would be easier without the fighting, crying, bitching at each other etc. I thought if I was a boy she would like me more and pay attention to me. As it was, in such a big family, with an alcoholic father and constantly on the edge of poverty, there was little attention to go around. You shut up, and you took care of your own needs, and you didn’t ask for anything.
I never “got” the girl thing. I never got makeup, and Barbies, and dresses and heels. I never got cheerleading or dancing or fawning over boys. Throughout my childhood and through high school I had a couple of friends who were girls, but most of my friends were boys. They didn’t bicker, they didn’t make fun of the way someone dressed, or if they were fat or had bad skin. I sense a theme here. I hated all those things about girls that my mother said were hateful.
I still don’t get girls. I am straight. I am attracted to men and have been married twice, one longterm and extremely unhappy, and now I am pretty contentedly remarried. I don’t have friends, male or female.
I have been drawn to the strong and sensible voices of many of the women here. Shirlstars and Diane and Scribe….they’re all who I want to be when I grow up. Since I am 45, I’m wondering when that will possibly be!
It’s a hard lesson for a girl to learn that even though her family teaches her she can be and do anything she wants, the rest of the world isn’t so onboard.
I think it’s one of the more difficult experiences for girls who are encouraged by loved ones (especially males – fathers, grandfathers, brothers, etc. who inform your impression of what a man or male is) to go through. It’s almost like a slap in the face when you are suddenly confronted by someone who tells you (in either a direct or indirect fashion) that you can’t do something because of your gender, when up to that point in your life you’ve never been treated that way.
Myers-Briggs Type Inventory.
I think you can find an online knockoff if you google for the Kiersey Temperament Sorter.
Anyway. There are two ways people can Judge things (i.e., make personal decisions about better and worse choices)–Thinking and Feeling. When you break down preferences by sex, 60% of men prefer Thinking, and 60% of women prefer Feeling.
Our society strongly reinforces this natural difference in style–and from it you get stuff like that Mars-Venus candy that was so big in pop psychology a few years back.
I’m a female Thinker. Very strong T preference.
Interestingly, I married a guy with a Feeling preference.
I got the heavy-duty bandaid work–Daddy got to kiss and make it better!
If you happen to be born with the “wrong” preference, you get a TON of grief growing up. The guys get called “softies”. The girls are labeled “unfeeling”. Etc.
Of course, winning arguments for the two preferences are also different.
But once you hit adulthood, something surprising shows up. You are much better than most people you know at working with and understanding the other sex.
You always see gray, and almost never black/white.
As a result of that sandpaper childhood, you also have learned to respect and deal with members of your own sex who have the standard preference.
I’m willing to bet that MarkfromSF has a Feeling preference–and you sound like a strong T.
Now there are plenty of Thinking men and Feeling women who also Get It. But they haven’t desperately needed to Get It almost from their first day in kindergarten, so it comes to them later and more like a second language. And…sometimes they think they have Got It–and they don’t.
Not sure this is right, you understand. But it seems solid so far.
Hm. Interesting. I’ve always come up as “Feeling” on those tests (though my other letters tend to jump around pretty much randomly), and I’ve always had an easier time relating to women than most other guys I know. Especially dealing with them as friends.
This lead to some incidents in kindergarden that I’m just now remembering… And which take on a slightly different light after all this discussion of gender roles.
in one diary!
Thanks for sharing your personal story with us. I’m continually amazed at the bright and wise people who make up these communities we all join to participate in both political change and self-development.
I really like your discussion of ‘turfs’. Its a neat way to look at these virtual communities.
I know I was looking for a deep community where I could meet people from all walks of life and all backgrounds and have meaningful discussions on shared topics.
I thought I had found it before. And it looked good, at first. But even in my relatively short time spent there, it seemed to change focus and direction on me.
I had hoped for a place for civil discussion. If a Republican strolled by emphasizing the latest talking points, I’d engage him in a civil debate. As long as he showed me respect, I didn’t mind at all that his ideology and goals were 180 from mine. It was a chance to learn, to strategize, to dissect and refute his arguments (okay, so the only 2 I remember encountering were guys).
The more sad (but increasingly common) occurrences were when another “progressive” would disagree. Often not with me, but rather with a comment or a diary that I found myself identifying with. It was venomous. And these people weren’t being chastised or herded out. They were being applauded, often by the same folks who were considered community leaders. Heck, too often it was these community leaders bringing down the level of discourse.
Its all such a waste. There is a real demand out there for a commons for civil discourse on the left. Some folks (including me) thought it was at that orange site. But rather than focus on community building, I guess their priorities are elsewhere. I was able to deny what all the evidence had been telling all along, up until this last blowout, when I was smacked right between the eyes with it (and unapologetically to boot).
So I too packed up the wagon and came down the road. I’d been by here before, but now its time to call it home.
I hope we all find that community we’re looking for here. I suppose I can move again if need be, but I’m ready to settle down for a good long while.
(I’d been by here before, but now its time to call it home.I hope we all find that community we’re looking for here.)
It’s wonderful to find a place where we feel we “belong”. The shift I have made in my own thinking had to do with understanding that no “home ground” especially online, stays the same forever because it’s full of other people, and people change all the time. And so do I. So I’m more of a “nomad” than a settler. I like meeting new people, seeing new places, so when for whatever reason, I am realy to leave one “online home” it ok, because there are so many others, and so many new people to meet. Transitioning is painful sometimes, but less so for me now that I don’t put all my eggs in one basket anymore.
I’m a middling boomer but I married an older woman of your age. I see a lot that she’s told me in your story. I’ve seen more watching other women over the years.
Frankly it’s fascinating.
When gender ever stops being all about power, if it ever does, we stand a chance o[f] working well together
I’d never argue that this viewpoint is false. But I would suggest that many of our issues that seem so intractable when we continually hit them head-on, turn out to be so easy to circumvent if we can find a path to walk around them.
30 years ago as a sailing instructor I demonstrated a method that produced self-reliant female skippers at the same rate as males. Today, 30 years later, there is a minor industry of segrated female-only sail training. The market still doesn’t think women can learn anything with men around. I disagree with the market.
The method didn’t involve telling anyone that there was a gender issue involved, or saying anything about any kind of philosophy. It was one single stupid trick triggered by one personal preference of each student.
When gender ever stops being all about power
My experience says it’s not “all” about power. There’s a boatload of instinct, perception and habit to it that’s unconnected to any kind of formal policy.
We can beat this. We can beat them. We are The People.
“You hold the key to love and fear
All in your trembling hand
Just one key unlocks them both
It’s there at you command”
You’re right, gender isn’t “all” about power. It does intersect with it, however, in how this society is structured, I believe, and the male gender definitely has a lot more of it. I really don’t come from the “men are bad, women are wonderful” camp at all. I come from wishing we could move toward accepting and celebrating the differences and learn how to better blend our strenghts and power.
I think the power-over, competative nature of our society would benefit greatly by granting more power to the more collaborative energies of women. But this would mean those “in power” buying into this. Fact: people who HAVE power, like it, and are seldom eager to share it, because it has served so well. And in our society, males just happen to have most of it. 🙂
30 years ago as a sailing instructor I demonstrated a method that produced self-reliant female skippers at the same rate as males. Today, 30 years later, there is a minor industry of segrated female-only sail training. The market still doesn’t think women can learn anything with men around. I disagree with the market.
About 10 years ago, I took a women-only sailing course, with a woman instructor, and the experience was so different from sailing with men! We spent a week day-sailing a boat that’s about 35 feet, that carries a lot of sail–and wet canvas, as you know, is very heavy.
So there was lots of cooperation, ready hands to halyards, discussions about whether to reef or not (I spent some time on a bowsprit, reefing sail in a 30-knot wind). And we giggled a lot.
All of us had sailed in mixed crews, several owned their own boats, and all agreed that this was the most fun we’d had.
I think women can learn with men around, it’s just that cultural conditioning tells us to shut up, to defer. And if we don’t we may get shouted down anyway, as happened earlier this week.
So…. What was it?
As I’ve commented before, I was a child in the 60’s, wathcing the women’s lib movement unfold before my eyes. It all just made sense to me, being a strong, smart girl. What I was naive about was that I thought it was all resolved back then, that everybody had seen the light.
What a joke! How many rude awakenings have I had since then!
To hear that now, in the new century, many men want to use Christianity to claim that their wives should be SUBMISSIVE! But what irks me even more, to my core, is the women who agree! I just don’t understand these women, except, I guess, I really do in my brain. It’s just easier for them to say that the men can make all the decisions. But I still want to shake them.
And then they have baby girls and tell them that they are not as smart as boys.
And then you have episodes like Kos. What a slap in the face that was to me. Not only Kos, but all those men who agreed. Maybe, deep down, even they just wish some women would just shut up about “crap” like that. What a shock to hear so much spewing from supposedly progressive men!
Sometimes I really wonder, have we made any progress?
We do seem to have to teach/learn the same lessons over and over and over and over and over.
I keep thinking of this:
When the student is ready, the teacher appears.
Some of the dKos “students” we’re trying to reach are not ready for us, and there are things we need to learn from them. I’m not sure I have the stomach or the patience for that right now.
You’ve made an excellent point. I’m going to have to remember that, not only with men, but my kids and husband … and maybe myself too.
Thanks.
The rise in power today of extremist Christians has me literally sick to my stomach, because I spent the first third of my life living under that kind of “rule”, and it nearly killed me. I have a new grandbaby, a little girl, and the other day I was holding her, and ended up in tears, wondering what lies ahead for her now, should they be successful in their attempts to infiltrate all levels of our government. I couldn’t believe I was sitting here, in 2005, having to even THINK about that ever happening to my own grand daughters. I fight dispair and a sense of being powerlessnes to protect her, epecially when I see so many women also embracing the fundamentalist convervative structure that we fought so goddamnd hard to escape from. And this, for me, is why watching what has happened recently down the hall,has been so terribe to see.
If EVER we needed our brothers to hear us, believe us, to stand beside us , it’s right now.
I grew up in the ’50s and ’60s in a fundamentalist family in which the women were, at least of the surface, subservient to men. What I learned from my mother was this: that men were just big lovable lugs who thought that they were in control; but indeed, the real power was with women. The trick was to manipulate men in myriad ways so that they thought the next great idea was theirs, when it was actually a whisper campaign that you had been running for weeks. If you wanted something and the man didn’t, well, that’s what home-cooking and flirting and the bedroom were for. And those poor, pathetic men who thought they were in charge — oh, he-he.
As a teenager in my first relationship I was headed in the same direction, when something snapped, and I thought to myself, “This is disgusting! How could I ever spend the rest of my life with someone stupid enough to fall for this crap?”
Sometimes I wonder if, in my desperate repudiation of those tactics, I haven’t perhaps gone too far in the direction of unvarnished truth-telling, but I guess life is too often a matter of swinging from one extreme to the other, with the balance in the middle proving so elusive.
Wow! Just wow! What powerful and moving diary, which just made me remember something from my childhood.
I was 9 years old when I first encountered gender and power. I was quite the tomboy growing up, no particular reason, just loved hanging out with the guys. I did the BB Gun thing, the blowing things up, climbing trees, the list goes on. My neighbor was 2 years older than me and he invited me to go fishing with him and his father. Well, once the father found out, the invitation was rescinded. “Girls shouldn’t fish, they should stay home with their mommies and play barbie dolls.” Needless to say I was crushed.
Went home and told my mother about it, who then made me a pan of browines and said that I could do anything that I wanted to if I put my mind to it.
After a talk with said father, (who also happened to be trying to get into my mothers pants) I went on every fishing trip thereafter, and caught more fish than both father and son combined.
I love my mother and her brownies. Not only do they have the power to heal and comfort, but they taste good too! (the browines that is)
You have succinctly and without finger pointing brought to the forefront an amazing realization that many men are not intentionally gender bias, that it is in fact culturally ingrained with us. It is our responsibility to view this and correct it in a way that opens us to the powers that women possess. It is not your responsibility to fix us.
I have been blessed in this life with many opportunities to grow in my attitudes toward women. I am married to an amazing and very intelligent woman who can and does confront me when I start moving in a direction that demonstrates gender bias. She has never sugar coated it, does not fix me, she shows me how what I am saying or doing will impact our children, in how they will view themselves relevant to gender. We have two, one of each gender and I want them to know that they are valued not for their gender, but for the fact they are here and are human beings.
When I was brought to the light of recovery, I had many wonderful teachers, who quite simply explained to me that everything I once believed would need to be thrown out and I would have to be habilitated. There was nothing in my beliefs that could be rehabilitated, as everything I held to be truth was in fact a lie. I was granted an education that encompassed a revolution of my soul. I was blessed with many wonderful women teachers that, through patience and perseverence showed me how demeaning and powerful simple language could be to throttle the growth of other human beings. I have stood up to courts that exhibited gender bias, to probation officers, law enforcement officers and my own employers when I see or hear bias or demeaning comments based on gender.
I have worked diligently to open myself to the powers of the Goddess, as my wife likes to describe it. I have a wonderful life, a spiritual path that allows me to be open and willing to learn. I applaud your willingness to give this community the opportunity to demonstrate that we are indeed worthy of your committment and efforts and we will continue to provide an openness for discussion when issues arise that are biased. Thank you for opening my mind once again to the detrimental effects that gender bias and a discounting of powerful women has and is having on our society.
An inspiring read all around.
Sometimes I post as a woman, sometimes as a man, and I notice that I get totally different reactions. I’m sure the content is not all that different, because I often sign the post by flipping a coin.
But I’m also sure that my listening for the quality of the responses varies depending on whom I’m being.
Very interesting! I deliberately chose a gender neutral screen name for that very reason. Some along my way have been a little surprised to learn I am a female, on occasion. Gotta wonder what that’s about, huh? 🙂
These are issues I’ve always cared about, but they were never a main priority for me until the Pie Fight. I am indeed guilty of having expected women to do the the hard work on them — seeing everything blow up like that made me realize how much work there really was to do.
I can understand and support your not wanting to expend any more energy in an environment like the current one at DK. But I wonder if you’d still be willing to cross-post diaries like this one over there? Just post and walk away — let others do the debating. Because that place still needs your voice, if not your energy.
If not, I can understand.
Cross post this at Kos? I never thought about that, and thinking about it now has raised some strong and confusing reactions. Among them, (I HATE to admit, but will anyway,) is fear. No. More like dread. I know I can handle the arrows. It’s more like the feeling you’d get when you know you have to go get a third root canal. (grin) But I’ll give it some more thought. Maybe with some rewrite..dunno. I’ll chew on this awhile
That the whole thing helped you learn something useful for you to know, that will make your interactions and relationship even better, is just one good outcome of this. I suspect there are many good outcomes here that we’ll never hear about, because not everyone can own it like you have. Thank you.
Scribe, I can say we both walked in those shoes…different day perhaps, different ways to walk in them, but the same shoes non-the-less. I had to lay that bottle down and never pick it up again. I do take life seriously…maybe too seriously for my own good, for it could have been my demise. I am who I am and I do know after looking deep in my soul, I was way to codependent for those men you mentioned. I had to break that habit or loose my idenity as to who I really was. I seemed to marry the same kind of man. I had two marriages before I realized what I was doing. I tried to be everything to everyone in everything I did..as a nurse, as a mother as a veteran, at everything to everybody..I finally found myself at the end of my string and I dropped off. Tried to take my own life one night. God did not think it was time for me yet and I lived though that and with the help of the friends and family and my peers, all of whom I just about forgot about during this time in my life, I got though it very well and stronger for it.
I can identify with you from the time you were born to today. Just doesnt seem right to say been there, done that. I just want to say, I do understand.
I too was like you at the kos. I found they had found my breaking point there. NO matter how gently I tried to give my opinion on this pie fighting thing, one day this all came out early of the morning while drinking my coffee and reading and listening to c-span. It just hit me and it came pouring out. I said some things I wish I had not said, but I was not willing to take them back and apologize for them to them either. I really meant what I had said. so to end all of this, I remembered being here and lurching and reading and found it to be a place of refuge for other members and a place of fun too..I said to myself, I need to be at boomans place. I think I need some peace in my life and this is the place for it. I will still fight the good fight in politics if and when I wish. but on my own terms and when I choose to do it. You see, I had to come to terms with myself in my real life all about choise. I could go on and let othres both men and women do things to me and crush me to bits or I could not let them do this to me..I grew…into something I never thought I could be..independent..this has helped me to sleep at night and life a pracious and fulfilling now for about 20 years. I am still growing…gaining new friends, and learning from others. Thank you for your diary…..
I respect all that you’ve gone through (my mom is coincidentally also 64, and an ardent feminist; I think your age group is the youngest to have come of age when men were still completely ruling the roost and being real pigs about it). But I wonder if the situation you went through as a volunteer was about sexism, or just about your being a whistleblower? (Though I read that women are more likely to be whistleblowers, which is a credit to their gender for sure.)
Alan
Maverick Leftist
All I know is much of the personal attack involved gender related slurs, and there was a history of other women leaving under similar circumstances, before me.
I think you’re right about my age group. I know that for many younger folks it’s difficult to believe how awful it was back then, especially in small, ultra religious midwest towns.
True tale: Six months after I was widowed, I went to get a library card. I gave my first and last name. Unacceptable. it had to be Miss, or Mrs. Not only that, I couldn’t use my own first name, I had to list myself as Mrs (his first name,) (his last name.
“But.. he’s DEAD!” I blurted in surprise. At that, her mouth became a prune, her eyebrows shot up into her hairline, and she sternly informed me that “That is library policy.”
Bad timing on her part. I’ve often wondered if she actually followed my very clear instructions as to just where she could “file” that damned library card.
A couple of years back, my husband and I started taking our taxes in to an tax service place (CPAs, etc.) becuase the whole damn thing just started making me crazy (the was the year I started doing consulting, of course those years we could afford to pay someone else…but I digress).
In any case, we filed a joint return, something we had not done before for various reasons (also not relevant to the discussion at hand) , and I was shocked to be told that, even though I was the one with the business and had made twice as much money as he did that year, it was IRS policy that the man always be listed as the primary taxpayer, and his SS# used to subsume all earnings in the “household”. My husband wouldn’t have cared one way or the other — I do ALL of the $$ stuff in our house, I don’t think he’s even written a check in the past 4 years, but if I wanted to put my name first, then why the hell not??
These things are ingrained deep.
Good on you scribe! Your persistance does you honor, I think.
America in general enjoys exaggerated gender stereotypes. That’s why homosexualism and transexualism is comdemned and why intersexuals, if they are obvious enough at birth, used to be “converted” to one sex or the other.. and why any individual that dares question the hierarchy must be dealt with.
OH! PS . There was one above that used to do Zen Buddhism but left because of faulty teachers. I agree with your reasons for leaving but i didn’t leave.. i just don’t use teachers. IMHO i think the idea that you HAVE to have a teacher is just more control… but i don’t want to miss out on the god stuff.. so i read Alan Watts, Phillip Kapleau, et al, and make my practise eclectic enough not to have to label it. In other words keep up the zen you were doing, if you like, just make it personal and follow your own way.. like scribe is doing. (if you meet the Buddha on the road kill her and all that)
Insightful and productive life experience.
I too, believe that sentient vitality cannot be expressed in a dominant, one-gendered energy. In my opinion, it is the equal “togetherness” of us in respect and harmony that must prevail. By “us”, I include the full spectrum of gender and presentation.
It is to the benefit of all, that snide discrimination is ferreted out of banal humor and unmasked for what it is.
Thank you for your perspective.
Whisel*