The title of this diary comes, as many of us know, from a beautiful Bible verse. It also happens to be the title of President Gerald Ford’s memoir. Now out of print, the book tells the story of a mediocre Presidency marked for history by one salient act of forgiveness — the pardoning of Richard Nixon.
The circumstances surrounding Nixon’s resignation are in some ways similar to those we currently find at Booman Tribune. In 1974, America was full of hatred for a President who had turned on them when they needed him most. Similarly, our community here at Booman is up in arms about Markos, our former leader whom we believe unconscionally rejected the women of his site in favor of macho egotism.
Now, let me state at the outset that I’m a strong opponent of both the Pie Fight ad and Markos’s reprehensible comments. If you don’t believe me, see here, and here, and here, and here, and some of my comments at Kos which is being upgraded to a new server right now and can’t be reached. Convinced? Okay. Because now I’m going to attempt to do what Armando tried and failed to do — try to temper the hatred around here.
Markos fucked up, big time. He made an ass of himself toward the women and thinking men on the site. He didn’t apologize properly and never will, because he doesn’t get the plight of women in America and in the Democratic Party.
BUT…and this is a big BUT. Markos happens to be responsible, more than anyone except perhaps Joe Trippi and Aziz Poonawalla, for the explosion of the blogosphere as the enfranchised voice for American liberals. Markos gave us — ALL of us — a voice in a party which until recently only paid lip service to many of us. He and his site remain the first line of defense against the bureaucratic and power-hungry forces that currently run our country and our party. None of this has changed simply because he is unconscionably stupid about the single biggest issue of the Democratic Party.
This hatred expressed toward a member of our own side — it’s poison, poison. It reminds me of the environmentalists back home in Flagstaff who demanded the resignation of Interior Secretary Bruce Babbitt, the greatest environmental politician in American history, because he maintained a pumice mine on his property. Was Babbitt wrong to maintain the mine? Yes, of course. Did his idiocy on this issue negate all the good he’s done for America? Not at all.
I’m not asking anyone that has left to go back to Kos. That’s your choice. What I’m asking is that you recognize that Kos, like Babbitt, is human and flawed and at times horribly stupid, but still a great man and the last best hope of our movement. I’m asking that this site become not the Anti-Kos, but a sister site, with a different focus, a different style, but the same mission: to reform America and the Democratic Party. I’m asking not that we forget what Kos has done, but that we FORGIVE him.
When Gerald Ford pardoned Richard Nixon, it was an extremely unpopular move. Surely Nixon didn’t deserve it. But AMERICA deserved it. America NEEDED it, so we could move on with our lives. With one stroke, Ford drained all the poison from America and returned us to nationhood.
Anger, then as now, is a normal reaction. But it is time to remove the poison from our hearts by forgiving Markos for his actions. Our movement, our community, our selves are at stake. Now is not the time to kill. It is a time to heal.
And while we’re at it, let’s forgive Armando as well. His great offense was to defend his friend against what he felt were unreasonable attacks. I disagree with him on substance, but I applaud him for his loyalty.
I never say this, but if you think this is an important point, please recommend. I happen to think it’s very important.
Hurrah!
I don’t expect perfection from my leaders. I understand everyone is flawed, and that elementary school history and bible school history accounts of famous leaders create too many problems with their whitewashed views that polish off all the flaws of the people they celebrate.
That said, I don’t wish ill upon the other site, nor its leader.
But why exactly should it be incumbant upon us to kiss and make up?
A leader in a democracy is a representative.
Neither of those two gentleman represents me. They made it abundantly clear. The first with his broad-blanket dismissals and the second with his hostile personal attacks. Neither one necessarily singled me out, but its in my nature as a Democrat, a Liberal, and a human being to identify with those around me, especially those I’ve come to respect and highly regard, but also those who no one else notices.
Are they allies? Sure. Like pro-life Harry Reid is a great ally to pro-choice women.
But there is nothing more to it than that, an alliance.
I’ve seen what Markos has done in our name. While I agree with his positions, I expect more of my leaders than things like his recent treatment of us, or of this.
I wish him luck. I just cannot in good conscience be one of the nameless supporters he wields like a crude club “on my behalf”.
I’ll shop around for a more mature spokesman for my causes, one who both has the right opinions and knows how to use the weight of the community effectively, with our informed consent.
PS: I similarly refuse to applaud Armando for attacking various people here and elsewhere in the cause of blind loyalty. If I gave out kudo’s for being aggressive and offensive in the name of blind loyalty, I’d be high-fiving Condi, Bolton, Margaret Spelling, John Snow, and the whole administration and be too tired to do anything but wink by the time Colin Powell showed up.
Its not about agreement its about R-E-S-P-E-C-T. That’s a lesson that the party and some netroots activists could use.
But you see, I’m not suggesting you “kiss and make up”. I’m talking about an alliance. Do you sit around here and bash Harry Reid because he’s only an ally and not your leader? Of course not. You let him do his thing and support him, and you do your thing.
That’s all I’m asking for with Kos. To not split the movement over this, to stop attacking him and his site, to forgive but not forget, to move on in alliance for a new America. I don’t think we necessarily disagree.
You’re absolutely right. On that we don’t disagree.
We should be allies.
And I didn’t mean to imply otherwise (as you picked up).
There are too many flaws that are important to me in particular for me to “go back”, or even really “forgive” at this time. But I don’t think I need to go back or forgive to work together in an alliance.
There have been a lot of diaries and comments which (perhaps unintentionally) castigate folks for leaving. Their reasons were legitimate, whether they saw it as age, gender, respect, or anything else. Too many of these reconciliation drives sound to me like “forgive and come home”.
I personally don’t want to go home. I may visit, and I’ll gladly work together when a concrete opportunity arises if our goals align.
But your post read to me more like “speaking ill of dKos is wounding us. Make the discord go away, so the Righty’s can’t use it against us”.
Um. How about we all just drop the subject.
We’re not Hilary Clinton, having to stand by our cheating man to quiet the press. We moved on. Heck, Markos himself frontpaged a list of places we could go. We went!
Leave us alone
Its gonna take a while for discussion of dailykos and what went wrong to die down. I honestly think pleas such as yours just prolong this period.
The better time for patching up and forming alliances is perhaps after the wound has scabbed over?
(after the discussion settles back to shared topics, that is)
I think basically we just disagree about the time table for “scabbing over.” That’s okay. We can agree to disagree.
In the meantime, understand that I’m NOT telling anyone to go back there.
I think basically we just disagree about the time table for “scabbing over.”
That timetable is established by each individual.
And there are many. many problems at DKOs which haven’t been resolved. Your main concern seems to be Markos. That’s understandable. But as someone who worked very hard to encourage women to participate on DKos only to watch all my efforts disappear in about 2 days I would say that until the community and it’s various members can bring themselves to stop being abusive to folks I think it’s best not to try to heal the rift. It’s extremely ugly over there now and the problems haven’t been resolved. perhaps you could work on that. I’ll help with what time I have. You could start with PP and her husband and DH. If they would stop beating up on good, strong women whose husbands are over in Iraq and people like Jerome when he posts a diary about wage disparities it would be most helpful
PS I was angry with Kos for about 2 days and have never been angry with Armando. But your comments about Kos’s failings also apply to the community as a whole. I don’t believe there’s much will to heal right now on either side. And, no, we are not going to support Roemer or Casey. period.
He made an ass of himself toward the women and thinking men on the site.
—————-
Now this is just a small thing, but I think it detracts just a little bit — in a tract speaking of forgiveness — with this little potshot at the neandertal men who did not leave kos.
By your definition, I didn’t leave Kos. And yeah, there’s some Neanderthal men over there that seem to have come out of the woodwork.
But I’m trying to make clear that I agree with all the objections levied against Kos here. I just think we ought to recognize what else the man and the site mean to our movement.
I just don’t know who is expressing the hatred you find so distressing, nor do I understand why you consider Kos the “last, best hope” of anything, nor why Kos must be forgiven.
Hmm…as for the hatred, here’s a thread that sort of exemplifies it. Random potshots at Kos, without even any relevance to the pie fight controversy (because Kos threatened one particular woman who had tried to destroy his site doesn’t have anything to do with the idea that he’s a misogynist). There are many other examples around here.
About Kos being the “last, best hope” of the Progressive movement — I’ve been involved in online politics for over two years now. At the beginning of that time, our best venue was a little Blogspot pro-Dean site by Aziz Poonawalla that no one read. Now Kos is read by Congressmen, Senators, and a DNC Vice-Chair. Kos tells those people to pay attention to the base, to get the career pols out of power and give power to the people. That’s something extremely important in my opinion, and something I’m proud of Kos for doing.
He’s not perfect, but neither is he evil. And we should forgive him.
He didn’t threaten — and by “threaten” keep in mind we’re talking about Kos refusing to help them get money, nothing physical — the woman!
The letter was to Matthew Zablud (in that thread I screwed up and put the name of the judge, oops) and merely referenced Carol Darr and “you guys.” Carol Darr was the one who wrote to the judge, not the one Markos wrote to. So that complaint was doubly wrong.
and all he said was – because of their comments to the FEC – comments that, if they were enacted, would effectively handcuff or even shut sites like dKos and Atrios down – he would do “everything in his power” to have no “netroots” participation in an annual conference the IPDI runs.
Just as I’m doing everything in my power to get rid of W. It’s not a threat – its a statement of intent.
He’s saying “you have lost my support.” “you have shown yourself to be on the wrong side of an issue that is important to me.”
(hmmm – seems like those are sentiments that some of the Kos critics could identify with – eh?)
do I wish Kos had written far more eloquently – YES. I’m sure he does to. My issue with him – and ESPECIALLY with Armando is that they shoot from the hip when angry and they should both know better. Count 10, think about it – and be persuasive instead of hostile…
but he was dropping an email to a person he knew – not issuing a press release….
that people are delighting in his embarrassment and finding evidence of misogyny in this event is, in my opinion, every bit counterproductive as Kos’ error of phrasing the note as he did.
http://69.9.161.200/storyonly/2005/6/10/114424/386
link above is Kos’s further comment on the letters and links to the whole history of the comments to the FEC he was reacting to.
Forgiveness is a wonderful form of humility. For most of my life I always equated humility with humilation. That has never been the case. I found that forgiving those who would try to harm me or take something from me was a wonderful way to take their power out of my life. I despise the repugs, I have little respect for most republicans who follow the repugs blindly. I pray for them, I work to forgive them for what I see is their daily transgressions into my personal freedoms, choices and rights. I will fight them honorably with all that I am and give to my last breath all my being to defeat them. I have watched wonderful human beings destroy themselves because they could not forgive someone who transgressed against them. I will do everything in my power to keep that disease out of Booman.
As will I.
Again, thank you. Armando didn’t think people like you existed over here. You have proved him wrong.
Armando didn’t think people like you existed over here
That says a lot. I have a feeling that the ‘hate’ I keep hearing about is a matter of perception. I am not going to presume to speak for anyone else, but my view is that I have moved away from an unhealthy atmosphere – not taken my ball and gone home, nor flounced off – simply exercised choice in how I am going to care for myself.
My beliefs and principles are mine and mine alone – I don’t compromise them for people I know: why on earth should I alter my focus to spite someone I don’t know? I could be wrong, and often am, but my perception at the moment is that the people continuing to instigate discussions of the upsets and anger are those coming here from there. I have seen a lot of posting from people who came here, like me, as a result of what happened – and it has been about all sorts of things: people are getting on with life, moving on.
BTW, I didn’t post to armando’s thread, but did read a lot of it: I don’t know armando, have never interacted with him; but I do know that I wouldn’t tolerate behaviour like his face to face and certainly don’t find anything defensible in it online. I endevour to treat everyone respectfully and am not prepared to accept less from others.
Armando didn’t think people like you existed over here
Then you are indeed one of those that Armando did not think existed here. I am sure there are many whom he thought were out to get Dkos, who really are not, they are upset, feel betrayed and need to get the negative out of thier systems. I fervently hope by the end of the weekend, the majority of our newcomers will have been able to feel some relief, start on a more positive track and move forward on what I know many of them see as important. Getting repugs out of office.
Thanks for being a part of Booman
There’s no reason for me to forgive Kos. He didn’t do anything to me. I kinda find the idea presumptuous, actually.
Can you explain what you’re talking about? I’m quite confused at the moment, honestly.
I don’t know what you think Kos has done that I should forgive him for. He wrote his opinion on something; I don’t agree with that opinion. That’s all. He didn’t do anything to me. What should I be forgiving him for?
Don’t know what else to say. I don’t understand why you wrote this diary, that’s all.
Oh, I see. The diary is about, and directed to, a bunch of recent immigrants over here who are really upset at Kos and feel he slandered them personally.
If that’s not you, then the diary wasn’t directed at you. Sorry about the confusion.
I merely entertained the post about forgiveness because you asked why he should be forgiven. I would never presume to know anything about anybody, if they did not tell me about themselves. I rarely step into the middle of anything without having some idea of what has transpired. There are many who have come over from Dkos, who are hurt, angry, frustrated, feel betrayed, alienated and basically felt abused by what transpired on that site recently. I was merely and hopefully bringing forth a point that humility, forgiveness, truthfulness, honesty, integrity and honor will win the day here at Booman. If you felt imposed upon in any way that was not my intention and I would ask that you accept this apology if you did feel that way. I live within a spiritual structure that makes it possible for me to live each day to its fullest, accept responsibility for my actions and respect each and everything that enters into my life. Thank you for being a part of Booman’s and I look forward to reading more of your commments and hopefully some diaries in the near future.
No offense taken nor imposition felt! I meant that it feels presumptuous for me that I should forgive Kos for expressing an opinion that was not directed at me personally and caused no harm to me.
Understood, I hope you also understood that my post was more directed at those who are harboring ill will, hardened feelings of betrayl and dismissal. I have been here for about 2 months now and I have enjoyed my time here. I will continue to enjoy my time as we move forward, my only agenda is to bring the progressive message forward, making sure that it is inclusive and that women, men, people of color, gays and others who have been disenfachised in the past and currently will have a voice. Having found my Native American heritage, I have seen first hand what being disenfranchised can do to a culture and its people.
Most of the Tribbers have stayed far out of the pie thing, mainly just offering support and welcoming people and so on, but still… I think possibly you are on a bit of a wrong track.
I know you probably mean well, but do take a look around at the diaries on the site, and the comments and writings of the people who have recently joined… what you are describing doesn’t exist, except maybe in very small measures. At least, I don’t see it.
I see men and women who were angry and hurt a few days ago, taking that and moving forward, writing about things in their lives or stuff that is important to them, affirming each other, sharing memories and experiences of a time long before kos, and in general healing quite well. And positively.
BooTrib is not, nor has ever been the “Anti-kos” site, nor has it ever had any mission to be. The people who are angry (although more of them are mainly tremendously disappointed, from what I can tell) have a right to the anger, but they are not allowing it to poison either themselves or the rest of the site. They are an amazing group to watch, and I’m extremely impressed with the collective wisdom and grace they have exhibited, even in the most stressful times.
Anyway, I wanted to add my two cents, and invite you to look around a bit more, and maybe you’ll see too.
Nanette, I’ve actually been reading the diaries around here a lot in the past few days. I’m actually a BooTribber from way back, though I stopped reading a few months ago owing to time constraints.
We simply disagree on what we’ve seen. I’ve seen a LOT of anti-Kos poison (see the thread I referenced above) and a lot of hatred. Particularly when Armando came over yesterday, admittedly not with a lot of tact, and the whole community pounced on him. We’re all Progressives, we’re all on the same side, these things just shouldn’t happen — and wouldn’t, if people didn’t hate each other so much.
I respect your opinion, though.
Nonpartisian — I appreciate that you are trying to make peace, really I do. I do not like that people keep bringing this over here…
Here’s the thing. I am at peace. I do not HATE anyone. Especially not Markos, someone I have never met and likely never will.
I abhorr how people throw around this word, it takes away the atrocities commited by those who are consumed by hatred.
Do I think his site did some good things? Do I think Markos is working his ass off, likely so. But, as I posted there many a time, PLEASE get over the “Kos is the be all and end all, last best hope rhetoric”, please. Even he himself didn’t go there — I actually thought him quite sincere when he said, there are other places, some other deserving blogger could use your support (not verbatim).
No one GAVE me a voice, I aready had one. and while appreciate that you have been involved in “online politics for over two years”, PLEASE just give it a break.
I am not susceptible to cults of personality — not ont he right, not on the left, not in the middle. With all sincerity (and I’m talking to everyone here), please just let it be.
The thing is that we have gotten a bunch of new members here whose ONLY reason for coming is because they are angry with Kos. Old-timers like you are getting caught in the crossfire, and I’m sorry about that.
But there are people here who are more upset than you are, and dismissing the issue that brought them here in the first place doesn’t seem to me to be the way to go.
I have been here for three days. I came over from dKos because I was looking for a community and I heard they had one here.
I don’t like people to force me to choose sides (and that is EXACTLY what Armando did with his diary, that’s why I jumped on him — I cannot and WILL NOT speak for anyone else), when I am trying to be respectful and stay out of it.
I was in an abusive relationship (i am not calling anyone abusive, please), and the best thing I learned from that was if something is unhealthy for you, REMOVE YOURSELF FROM THE SITUATION. It was unhealthy for ME, I came here.
I refuse to buy in to the “us and them” binary either/or….
First of all if you think people’s ONLY reason for coming here is because they are angry with Kos, you are really in the dark. Sit down and read through 8 or 10 Diaries of 100+ comments of people telling us who they are and why they have decided to visit Booman for a while, or some who say they like it here and will stay. There are so many reasons that go far beyond the incedent at dkos that it makes your only statement just totally misleading from the outset.
No one here is dismissing the issues of those who have come here looking for some comradery and a place to express themselves and be treated with respect. You seem to be the dismissive one. If you are truly a participant here at the Trib as you claim, then you know how we treat people here and it is not by dismissing them and their concerns. I have looked at your history here at booman, and it would be difficult to say that you are any more than a very casual participant here. And hey that’s fine, whatever suits your needs. But please don’t pretend to be more than that.
There is no only one reason that most of the new people are here. We don’t require anything of them other than they play by the rules we wish to play by, and the number one rule here is RESPECT. And you should know that.
Shirlstars, I’m really glad you said this.
I descibed myself in one of the Welcome Wagon diaries as a pie war refugee, and I guess that fits. I came here early this week as a result of the conflagration at dKos. I wasn’t just angry; I was fed up — the pie fight itself was just the straw that broke this camel’s back.
But you know, that’s just the reason I came. The reason I’m staying is because I love the atmosphere here, and I already feel real affection for the wonderful people responsible for it.
I don’t hate Kos by any means — I don’t even know him. He’s certainly not my leader. I simply find this community far better suited to my temperament. In fact, from a purely selfish perspective I could almost be grateful for Kos’ outburst since it led me here.
And to those who continue to imply that most, or many, or a lot of us came here out of spite regarding Kos: I think our hosts here deserve better than that. Please try to understand that most of us, whether we’ve taken up residence here for good (like me) or plan to travel between the two sites, are here because we LIKE it here. That is due in large part to Booman, Diane101, Shirlstars and everyone else who has contributed so much to this place.
Please.
Poison?
Armando “admitted not with a lot of tact” ?
Armando came over here as a raving troll demanding folks sign “agree or disagree” pledges, vowing retribution on those ‘particular individuals’ he never named for acts he never described, and at the end came right out and said if the attitude he perceived was pervasive as he believed, he was going to work to have Booman Tribune de-linked from Kos’s blogroll.
Gawd. I can’t stand a whitewash job, even if its for someone “on our side”.
He was humored by many. Folks ignored his anger and hurt, and posted meaningful responses explaining their feelings. That’s what Booman Tribune folks do, I’ve noticed, talk intelligently about their feelings. He would have none of it, and demanded “agree or disagree”, and accused folks of being nonresponsive no matter with his patented one-liners, no matter how detailed their response was, if it didn’t say “agree” or “disagree”.
That’s not anti-dailykos poison. That’s harsh fact, okay?
Armando knows it was trollish behavior, he’s as much said so in his apology and by his action of deleting the whole diary.
And you downplay it as “not with a lot of tact”. Is that because your interpretation of his intentions were good, disregarding his actual behavior?
Yet, to those who responded in kind, or refused to play along with him, or have reiterated the facts (as they saw them, they certainly weren’t lies), you accuse them of being anti-kos and spreading poison.
Perhaps its you who isn’t ready to deal with this issue just yet.
I left dailykos. It was nice to get away from personal attacks and smears and misrepresentation. To get back to people having open dialogues and politely disagreeing.
Your attempts at “healing” aren’t improving the situation here. And that’s what I, and I presume folks here, are most interested in. The situation here.
Oh gracious! The day anyone, let alone “the whole community” is able to pounce on Armondo is the day I will be elected queen of the fairies!
When you are confrontational and attacking in your interaction with others, what is it you expect you will receive in return? When you Demand people listen to you, how many people are really going to want to listen to you?
I read the entire thread and I saw people very patiently trying to make there points and express their views, they were rebuffed one after another by continuous demands from Armando.
Please make your peace at dkos. If people here want to go to dkos and make peace with you, they will. No one here is trashing Markos or dkos. Please stop spreading such false acusations.
“Demanding” anything from feminists is a dangerous thang, indeed!
Wow.
I expect a 35 yr. old male to know better–regardless of their patriarchal (or not) upbringing.
I might cut a ten yr. old a bit of slack, but never an adult.
Not a snowball’s chance in hell.
The 2006 midterms are gonna be a barnburner–esp. the primaries.
This pie incident is only the tip of the iceberg–expect an ongoing brawl to continue within the Democratic party.
It ain’t gonna be pretty.
“Big tent” is code for “sit down and shut the fuck up.”
What arrogant preposterous bullshit.
Reproductive issues in this country are 100% non-negotiable–what part of that is too difficult to grasp?
As someone here today noted, there are 47M+ Baby Boomers, and the women outnumber the men.
(Esp. in the so-called ‘progressive’ movement–the feminists and single/divorced/never-marrieds/widowed call the shots re: voter demographic turnout).
http://www.cawp.rutgers.edu/Facts5.html
The only positive thang I can detect about this week is that during the misogyny fest on Kos, I found this portal (it’s equally as toxic over @DFA 3.0’s blog).
Expect some incoming folks from there, too!
These stats don’t appear to be enticing re: “sticky factor.”
http://tinyurl.com/bpbba
30 seconds spent on anyone’s portal doesn’t consititute “community,” by any stretch of the imagination.
One more time: stop sending the “emissaries.”
We feminists are quite capable of finding our way around the web, thanks.
This phrase I have seen three times at BooTrib today.
Let’s all use it, often. It works, it helps, it heals.
I recognize that each person must heal in their own time and in their own way. I personally hope that by the end of the weekend, may of those who chose to come to Booman’s will have posted out their frustrations and will do whatever it is that they need to do to move forward. The repugs are having a ball right now, like any good disfunctional society, they are taking great delight in watching our family have a dispute and are desperately hoping that such a schism will completely knock us out of contention. What they don’t understand is that we are bigger than that, we have the desire to help all who can’t help themselves, we work to eliminate hatred, bias, demeaning attitudes and above all we care about other human beings. Something that repugs, and I mean repugs, not republicans in general, will never understand. I pray that the movement I have admired, respected and voted for all my life, will overcome this dispute, seek to forgive and move forward in taking back our lives, rights, choices and our government, for a disease that is so insidious that I feel despoiled whenever I use the words compassionate conservative. I for one hope that the criticism of Dkos, markos and armando will soon fade away, that we can work in conjunction with what that site feels is important and bring our own important issues to the table and know that we have chosen the path of truth, honor and dignity for this site and ourselves.
Rock on Ghostdancer! We need more of this. Thank you.
I don’t mean to minimize what you seem to be trying to do, but:
1) Markos isn’t my “former leader” ’cause he was never my leader, and I dunno what you mean by “we” when you say “… we believe …”, but that “we” doesn’t incude me. I have my hands full trying to second-guess my own thought processes, I’m not about to try it with someone I don’t know.
2) I don’t hate Markos, and I think few people do. I’m not even angry at him, though I can certainly understand why some folks are. (Being angry at somebody — even very angry — isn’t the same thing as hating them.)
3) While I certainly respect the things Markos has done, I don’t know him well enough to say whether or not he’s a “great man” and I really don’t think he’s anybody’s “last best hope”. If he is, we’re toast. (Which ain’t a slam on him. We’d be toast if any one person was our last best hope.)
[Shrug] At the risk of sounding dismissive, my advice, for whatever its worth, is to give yourself a time-out. Leave the blogs for the weekend, find some friends to hang out with, read a book, see a movie, go for a hike in the woods.
“We” equals reformist liberals. If that definition doesn’t fit you, then my bad — this diary wasn’t meant for you.
This diary was aimed more at the recent immigrants here from Kos, not at those people (like) you who have always been hre and not there. So again, this diary wasn’t meant for you.
The rest of what you’re saying is basically quibbles about word choice. Quibble if you must. There are some people here who are hurting, and I’m addressing them, not you.
I’m a reformist liberal. How dare you presume to speak for me.
I’m pretty much a recent immigrant here.
Yes, people are hurting.
You’re not addressing anything, you’re salving your own wounds at the expense of those who are honestly trying to put this behind them.
Please stop.
You have to deal with living in both sites. Please find a way to do so that doesn’t involve asking folks here to self-censor themselves and accept your version of what people here are doing and what people here are like.
I’d say the vast majority of the “refugees” like myself have settled in wonderfully. We’ve dealt with it. We’ll help you deal with it too, if you let us. But we can’t change us to make you feel more comfortable.
That’s just letting go of anger and not holding a grudge.
Unfortunately, many people confuse forgiveness with telling someone that what they did wrong was “all right”.
Real forgiveness says this:
I think you have confused pain and caution with anger and hatred.
Most of us do not hate kos. Some of us will still post there. But kos alone can decide that he wants the right thing more than he wants to be right.
I have some doubts about the correctness of Ford’s pardoning Nixon. There were good reasons to do it, but I think he left a few sponges inside the surgical wound when he sewed it up.
A rush to forgiveness is not too dissimilar from a rush to judgement. In both cases, failure to sift through uncertainty now will flaw the outcome later.
Chris, I’m in complete agreement with your post. My issue is that I actually think there are a lot of people here that DON’T share your viewpoint, who want to hold on to their grudge until hell freezes over. That’s what I’m addressing, not your legitimate issues (which I share with you).
Against my better judgement, I just have to say something here.
I cannot fathom where you are finding “a lot of people here don’t” share the views expressed. And by what possible means you have decided “they want to hold on to their grudge until hell freezes over.” And frankly, why would it be any of your business if they did.
I have literally spent 20 hours a day and night, every day and night, since Monday reading and dicoursing with those who say they have come here from dkos, and all of their reasons why that is. I have not heard one of the over 600 that I have talked with say that they hated Kos, that they wanted anything destructive or bad to happen to daily kos. As a matter of fact, the basic overlying emotion was a sense painful betrayal, or deep misunderstanding, and a bit of a shock that they were shown the door.
And most often the comment was that they would miss all the friends they have made there, so most likely would go back to visit with them after they had a little time to heal their hurts. That doesn’t sound like hatred to me.
I really think right now, this point of dkos friends coming over here with a purpose to continue “talking points” about this issue is just very poor timing, and a bit disrespectful of those who need a little space and time to sort out all that they are feeling.
One of the greatest misunderstandings that I have seen is that this can all be laid out at the feet of the ad and or Markos’ response.
It is more that you can pick up a glass of water and hold it in your hand with your arm straight out for 20 or 30 seconds with no problem. Five minutes, perhaps still not a problem, but 10 hours, that arm is going to be screaming in pain and you are going to regret you ever picked up that glass of water in the first place.
It is not one or two isolated incedences, it is cummulative. . .as the drop of water on the stone.
Here at Booman, we respect each other. We do not badger each other to listen to us if they say they need some space. We offer to help if we can be helpful, but we do not decide what the other person needs, we listen and they tell us what we need.
These are all just my personal opinions from my interactions with several hundred people here in the past 4 days, I am not speaking for anyone else. Unfortunately the tone of some of what you are saying feels very much like a demand that we listen to you and see the “wisdom” of what you have decided we think and what you have decided we need to do about it.
This is about individuals. Individuals make their own decisions in their own time and for their own personal reasons.
You are welcomed here, and you are free to express your opinions. But please listen to those who are telling you to PLEASE stop being an emissary between this site and dkos. We are not dkos, and though we wish kos and his site no ill, we really don’t appreciate this constantly being rehashed and stirred up by you and others who keep insisting upon it.
Heal yourselves first at your site of choice. Allow those here to heal if they need to, or to do whatever they need to do. Fix the problems at dkos, but fix them there, please. It is a great site and it has done great things and it will again if you tend to your own community.
I wanna be you when I grow up. Thank you so much for writing this… I have been so frustrated because I’ve not had the words to say this very thing.
We’ve been pretty patient (I think) with the “emissaries” and such, but enough is enough. It’s like sticking a hot poker on a healing would, and it’s amazingly arrogant and tone-deaf, even if they do have good intentions.
Nanette, that’s funny, I was just thinking the same thing about you this morning when I was reading something wonderful you said. Only thing is, I just don’t ever plan on growing up. . .you probably don’t either. Hoorah for our side.
Thanks for the lovely complement. Just keep doing what your doing and things will be fabulous around here.
And thank you 🙂
I won’t have time to grow up! When I’m done being you (this is only after I get to be ductape, by the way), I want to be Yaright and brinnaine and ghostdancers way and…and and.
What a marvelous group of people we have here, old and new. I do hope brains and articulateness are catching.
Oh wow, isn’t that the truth….Lorraine, and Daiane, and Man Eegee and. . . .
Too late. . .you have already contracted the dread booman strain of brains and articulateness.. . .
Thanks for a great chuckle!
LOL That was supposed to be a quote of those you wanted to be. . .and this stupid thing pops up. . . .
That’s about how much sense I am making lately any way.
The laughs on me, and a freebie at that!
LOL I was wondering about that, but the other fits too 😉
Booman kindly gave me the privilege for one more post.
And I promise you all it will be so don’t worry.
I wish Booman and Susan and the rest of you all the success you can imagine. Booman in particular I consider a good friend and Susan is someone who I hope will see it in her heart to forgive our trepasses and post again at dailykos. Yes we’ve noticed.
I can’t promise you anything will change but I can promise you that we will try hard to change for the better.
I speak for me of course, but there are many people who you respect who are joining the effort.
As for my post previous, my attempt, obviously clumsy, failing and ill timed, was to try to avoid the sniping. Of course, as many things I do, I made matters worse. And I apologize for that.
I don’t apologize for defending markos, someone I have come to know pretty well, and in whose good heart and character I am very very confident. HE is worthy of my defense.
What he wrote was offensive and inappropriate. I said so at the time. But that does not make false attacks on his character acceptable to me. And I will protest them when I see them at dailykos.
In any event, I wish you all success and promise you that the booman tribune will not suffer my wrath again, here or at dailykos.
Armando — thank you for this. I personally feel you ought to stick around here and let this community — the part that DIDN’T jump on you yesterday — welcome you as it has welcomed me and others. Just like I don’t have to leave Kos just because I vehemently disagree with the ad and his response.
I think this diary is the beginning of a new chapter at Booman — where we can transcend the disputes of the past and become allies once again.
But as always, do what you think best. Thank you for this very sincere post.
Thank you for your courage and committment to bring forth an effort of healing. I for one hope that this is not the last time we see you here. I hope and pray that this rending and gnashing of teeth will end soon. I know that many here have deep seated feelings both negative and positive toward Dkos. As I have stated before, I have one agenda and one only, that is the complete elimination of fascism from my government, the return of civil society to my nation and the return of social programs that eliminate poverty, disease and despair, not only in my country but around the world.
Several days ago in your diary here I asked you to post on our welcome wagon diary, perhaps Booman would let you do that, I feel that when you get to know someone in a personal way it is much easier to get along and that has worked so well for us on this site.
I am not involved in the other issue at all, as I rarely go to Kos, so I will not comment on that. I do think Kos needs to split into smaller groups, spin off sites in order to function better. Right now it’s almost impossible to load some of the diaries.
Thank you for your comment here.
if you were sincere about apologizing for your behavior, saying it was out of line, etc…
and if you are willing to keep defending Markos, even as you disagree with his statements and his sentiment…
if you’re really, truly being honest here,
you should consider dropping your vendettas against people for their actions in the past few days.
Please, hear me out.
Your diary here, and comments you’ve made over there say you plan on not forgetting certain names, and imply retaliation. I’m calling that a vendetta, and I’m asking you to reconsider.
You’ve admitted you’ve said some things you wish you could take back. Markos has said some things you assure us he didn’t mean the way he phrased them, yet he has not seen fit to publish further retractions, nor even to say in his own words what you express to us that he really means. You’ve both said you’re just calling it as you see it, and if it hurts someone’s feelings, that wasn’t the intent.
Please, compare that to the people who’ve said unkind things about dailykos, Markos, and yourself.
Some have issued retractions, like yourself. You may question their true motives, but then, some people may question yours as well.
Some have not issued retractions, but rather have gone silent, as Markos has. Perhaps their words were as misunderstood as you claim his were.
Some (and I’ll lump myself in here) have given their accounts of what went wrong, and it hasn’t necessarily been flattering.
Some are still writing their views on things. Everyone heals at different rates.
I suggest you zero out your enemies list, and don’t start reconstructing it for a month or so. Let passions flare. You’re a pretty passionate guy, I hear. But you’re not the most passionate person around, are you? Others will take even longer to reflect upon their words and actions.
Some people are never going back to dailykos. Some will claim their new homes are superior to dailykos. So what? You’re unapologetic in your defense of dailykos, even as you admittedly overlook its recent shortcomings and those of its founder. Why not accept that others will do the same to their newfound homes, without taking that as a threat to your own?
dailykos will be an important player in the netroots political game as long as it has a constituency. It has never been and will never be the only one game in town.
In the future, all the liberal/progressive/democratic blogs should work together. Dailykos can choose to be a large part of that, or not. It has size enough to choose. I hope we can all work together.
But I fear if you see comments made in the heat of the moment, or even of new competitive rivals for readership as some sort of threat to dailykos it will only hurt us all.
Please Armando, truly forgive, and move on.
The Right Wing is dangerous because it knows how to effectively mobilize many different factions. Dobson is powerful, but he doesn’t do the Chamber of Commerce.
Perhaps Markos is right, in an odd way. Perhaps its time to acknowledge dailykos can only handle a segment of the netroots. Not along gender-rights issues, or his chosen three areas of interest. But of self-identified communities.
You’re a good fit for dailykos Armando. Booman Tribune has a different style. Other places have still other styles. Rather than change you, or even change dailykos, perhaps its best to acknowledge these differences and concentrate on each community’s strengths.
I’ve written a post like this to you before over there. I believe you took it to heart, and found parts of it useful. I hope you see this one in the same spirit.
We don’t to like each other’s styles to be allies.
Thank you Armando. I was the first poster on that diary.
My feeling then and now is not anger, it is sadness. dkos has done a remarkable job, and I hope it continues to have major influence. I just need a rest from the level of discussion. I will continue to lurk because it is a major source of information, and I hope that I can return to comment in the future.
I have to add that I never saw the ad and didn’t much care whether it was there, though it doesn’t seem very appropriate for the site given the descriptions I read. It really was the dismissal that saddened me, and the fact that I could no longer recommend it to others.
An apology is seldom easy, and I appreciate your making this one. I missed your comments here at Booman Tribune, which is probably just as well 😀
I was appalled by many comments at dKos, and am puzzled about some of them. I expect I am not the only one who is learning something from this situation.
Folks, I have to go to work. I’ll be back in a few hours and check up on this thread — see what’s happened. DON’T kill anyone while I’m gone, and remember that healing and forgiveness are beautiful things. See you all soon.
Here is today’s graph showing Booman Tribune’s traffic. Can you figure out when Daily Kos went down for server maintenance?
This is just to bolster one point: there are a lot of people who visit both Daily Kos and Booman Tribune. Nonpartisan wasn’t hallucinating the nasty comments and borderline agitprop, they’re there, and they make us go-betweeners uncomfortable no matter where we find them. Really uncomfortable.
So look at that graph and tell me it’s a good idea to keep on keeping on when it comes to the backbiting and grudge-holding. You can not like Markos and still refrain from invoking his name in anger as a ritual of inclusion. You can dislike him and not speak ill of Daily Kos.
You can even not like him and still work with him when it suits you and you’re interests! I don’t think anyone is asking for anything more or less than that.
Do it for the “children” of this “divorce” who want to go between worlds. Is that the sappiest possible analogy? Yes, but it’ll do.
[if the image breaks the margins just troll rate it away.]
I’m sorry for you folks who go between both blogs and in your own words “feel like the children of divorce”. I’ve been there. And the solution is never for one parent to lie for the sake of making the children feel better.
Quit expecting people to put on the happy face for the sake of the kids. The analogy doesn’t hold. You’re at least college-aged in this scenario. You can live with whoever you want. Both, one, or neither.
But quit extolling the virtues of dad when your around mom, okay? She knows a hell of a lot more about what her relationship with dad was really like than you ever could.
Its one think to ask her to not speak ill of him. I think she’s ready for that, too, if you’d quit bringing him up. Its another for you to do what you’re doing now.
This place is a community where the members help each other through their problems. Lots of health and military-family problems here are being addressed cooperatively by the community.
A lot of people were emotionally invested in the other site. Keeping with your analogy, ‘divorce’ is traumatic. Its the kind of thing people turn to their friends for help with.
So please stop asking them to quit seeking support in their own time of crisis, because it puts you in an awkward spot.
You’re a grown up. As long as they’re keeping the conversation to appropriate places and carrying it out with the appropriate tone to those places, its not up to you or me to suggest talking about it is wrong.
I don’t mean this to chastize you. I feel you’re coming to this issue with good intentions. I just mention it to get you to consider there are more hurt feelings at stake than those of the “children”.
Lete everyone heal in their own way, right?
I said it was sappy, and I said it was just an analogy.
I stopped reading your rebuttal about halfway through, because it wasn’t really addressing the points, but was addressing the analogy, which isn’t the point of an analogy, I don’t think. The point of an analogy being to get a single point across and then be discarded and not really included in the progression of the debate. That sounds snippy, I don’t mean it to be. Just, I don’t know how to respond to your reply.
Obviously I should have just let the graph speak for itself, since the point is pretty clear even unassisted.
You used an analogy to make a point. I recycled your analogy to make a point, and to share with you another point of view you may not have considered, that may make you reconsider what you’re asking.
To read that you shut me down simply because I wasn’t speaking to the topic you wished me to address is a bit, well, rude. Its certainly your right to read what you will, but you actually took time to tell me you weren’t reading my stuff.
Why?
Because I wasn’t supporting the point you wanted supported?
I’m sorry, that’s not the purpose of discussion. That’s the purpose of indoctrination.
Answering your combined graph and post:
You want this place to be as friendly as possible to folks who visit here from dKos
Thats fine, and that’s fair. The truth is, this community exists for itself, first and foremost.
I’m sorry dKos went down. I’m glad folks came here. This is a great group of people, worth getting to know.
But our purpose isn’t to make our guests from dKos feel good. Its to be us.
We hope to be gracious. But frankly, its simply bad manners to ask your hostess to change her routine for the convenience of the guests.
If you see something you object to, speak up when it happens. We can deal with your discomfort when we’ve got a real scenario that can be addressed.
The analogy wasn’t the point. You got the two confused, and started treating the analogy as if it was the point underlying the analogy.
I was letting you know what about half of your visitors felt about the Daily Kos bashing. 50% of your new members are recent arrivals. You DOUBLED in traffic when DKos was down. I figured some people might want to know how their behavior was making others feel, regardless of whose turf it was. That exact issue has recently been the cause of some strife and tension. Next time I’ll just keep my mouth shut.
I didn’t “shut you down” because you weren’t support my point, I stopped reading because you weren’t answering my point, you were debating the analogy. And the patronization — you acting like I don’t know about “mom” and “dad’s” bad “relationship” and noting multiple times that I am an adult — was absolutely unbearable. Just, yeah, unbearable. I was there for the whole thing. THE WHOLE THING. I know. And since I was neutral throughout I may understand and know what happened better than people who were highly emotionally charged at the time! I am the family dog watching “mom” and “dad” fight.
This is a good time to stop, and point out that this is why I object to your use of the analogy as the basis for your reply instead of any point I was making. You creation of the mom and dad relationship thing only served to condescend to me and had nothing to do with actual reality. Again, I WAS THERE. That’s why you discard the analogy once the point is gotten across.
Then you lecture me about how it’s not BooManTribunes job to change. Ok, sure, but I was speaking to other BT users, NOT the site. Even with that in mind the site’s avowed goal — as stated by Booman — is, I think, exactly what I advocated. A cessation of backbiting and grudge holding, and working with Daily Kos when it suits people. So what am I — apparently a guest despite being a registered and trusted user — asking the hostess to change?
I was asking people to THINK about the effects of their actions. Again, this idea has been an important point of contention recently.
And you accuse me of attempting to indoctrinate as well!? Where does that even come from? Because I don’t like being talked down to? Because I’m not going to read a tangent that takes one tiny line out of my post, blows it up, and seeks to make me feel stupid?
I don’t understand, I don’t know where you’re coming from, but I figure it’s probably not as condescending a place as it seemed to me. I’m sure you had good intentions. But that’s all I have to say about it.
I’m not saying you weren’t there.
You were. You saw the whole thing.
And as you yourself just said, _ “neutral throughout I may understand and know what happened better than people who were highly emotionally charged at the time!”
That’s my point.
You don’t understand how the people involved felt. You were neutral. They most assuredly were not. So its not your place to tell them how to feel about it now, nor how to handle their process of working through it because you don’t know.
You can offer suggestions, and insights. As a “neutral” observer, you must have a viewpoint that may prove helpful.
But for heavens sake, don’t assume because you were “neutral” you have the right to tell people the best way to deal with it is to give the appearance of patching things up quick and quit talking about it.
_You
were the one who brought up the fact that we had dkos visitors, and expressed our discussing the dkos thing and how it affected us might make them uncomfortable.
I’m glad it didn’t affect you at the time. It affected some of us. Do we have a right to work through it here, with other people who experienced the same thing, not neutrally, but as participants? Or is there someplace else you think we should go to do that? Or should they just suck it up and deal with it. After all, it didn’t bother you.
But interestingly enough, its bothering you now. That is, all this discussion about it is bothering you. And since it is, you feel plenty free to post to threads asking/telling folks to take actions to help you deal with it.
Hey, that’s your right. And your viewpoint is welcome. But you gotta admit its a bit bizarre on one hand to tell folks to quit discussing something (to work out their issues), by starting discussions to work out your own issues about them working out theirs.
There. No analogies. A straightforward analysis of the situation, as someone who’s posted at least as much not about dailykos today here as about it. And all but one of those posts about it has been in response to folks like yourself telling folks to get over it, and quickly, because its being so disruptive.
Ironic, eh?
If you look back at my original post I was just trying to help. You have been patronizing and condescending from the start.
And you just go off on these tangents cause they’re fertile fields for you to talk down to me. I said I was neutral so now you decide this is about how I didn’t feel. Well I felt too, but I stayed neutral and so didn’t get sucked into one of the emotional black holes of the two highly emotionally charged camps. I had my opinion on the whole thing, but opinions weren’t helping that debate so I kept the full extent of them to myself. To my eternal benefit, I think. I have various opinions right now that are going wholly unexpressed. That doesn’t mean I don’t feel a certain way.
But you chose to take my comment that I was neutral and not highly emotionally charged as a statement that I hadn’t “felt,” and wove this parallel universe of a tapestry dripping with condescension out of it. Why? Again, I was /trying to help initially, so why is it you keep taking this tone? Do you not understand how patronizing you’re being? Do you not understand how it feels to be belittled and talked to like a 5 year old? How it feels to keep having your words completely mangled so that the author can clumsily fake his way into your head? Do you not care?
But. Anyway. I learned my lesson. When you’re around I’ll keep my mouth shut next time and not voice my concerns or feelings, lest I accidentally trample on some emotionally fragile user’s ability to unknowingly alienate 50% of the visitors here by speaking in ways they’ll later regret that constitute a direct abrogation of the blogrunner’s wish to not be vitriolic.
I see.
Darnit Addison, I like you. I just get frustrated you only see this from your own point of view. I’m not asking you to change your point of view. Please don’t take it that way. Just for you to acknowledge there are points of view on this topic that are equally valid to yours.
Every response to me has been about how I don’t get what your point is, and my replies are about ways you can see it from someone elses perspective. I don’t mean to talk down to you. I’m not sure how to talk to you and ask you to reconsider your opinions from another point of view without you feeling that way.
Can you see that other people need to handle this pie thing and its fallout different than you? That some folks will need to talk about it?
That’s all I’m asking of you. You’re pointing out they should be aware that talking about it makes visitors (your word) here feel uncomfortable. I acknowledge that. But I’ve asked you what the alternative is for the folks trying to work through this for themselves, and you call that off-topic.
We both agree, unnecessary hostility isn’t productive, and should be avoided.
But its pretty odd to hear that folks here should avoid certain topics to avoid offending folks from there, when the trigger for this ruckus was the folks over there attacking some of the folks who came here, because they wanted Markos to take down an ad that offended them, and were told “It’s not offensive, and if you feel that way you can leave”.
Ok, I haven’t even read your comment. I avoided reading it purposefully, cause God knows I’d find something to respond to and this would all start again.
I’m sorry for going off on you. I really, truly apologize. I just went out on a drive and while driving thought: “Man, that was all pretty unnecessary, and there was a much better way to handle that.” This was before shirlstars intervened. It’s too bad she did, because now this seems contrived and post facto! Though I didn’t really read her comment either, just got the gist.
I do understand where you’re coming from, but I just didn’t feel like you were acknowledging my good faith, and my genuine attempt to help. And that any notice you made of that good faith was buried under your tone. I know everyone has to heal their own way, I get that, but I was really really just trying to be helpful, and really trying to show how unhelpful certain behaviors were. I re-emphasize “in good faith.” Even if I was wrong I was NOT acting in bad faith. And then I felt like you weren’t acknowledging how your condescending manner was affecting me, though I understand a portion of condescension may’ve been in my head. That upset me and instead of taking a step back and writing what I just wrote I instead got defensive.
I apologize for both that immediately defensive and bristling posture and whatever I said to you. My comments to you were over the top and uncalled for, you didn’t deserve them, and I’m sorry about it. I realize it’s not in the spirit of this site to have things escalate like that. And it won’t happen again.
Ok, now I can read your comment.
I have to say, this thread of conversation is the most tense thing I’ve participated in over here, and I’m very pleased at its resolution.
I see that we were talking past each other, and that’s where it heated up — even tho neither of us intended to. Instead of explaining the same thing in different ways (which I can understand as being seen as condescending, tho I swear that was not my intent), I could have stopped and tried to re-establish common ground with you. I could have taken more care to make it clear what we agreed upon before exploring where we disagreed. I’ll try harder to remember that, and apply it in other situations in the future.
I understand you were trying to help the situation in your own way. I never meant to imply you were acting in bad faith. Even if you didn’t acknowledge that not talking about it could be hurtful to folks who still need to talk it out amongst friends, it wouldn’t mean you were acting in bad faith. I got so focused on the point of view I was trying to explain, that I discounted the importance of the points of view you addressed.
By the way, I do think that’s a pretty amazing graph you posted, and its very nice to see such a strong bond between the two sites.
I hope BT is allowed to be its own thing, and isn’t sucked up like some suburb to the larger city. Its nice having the big city nearby, I just enjoy the slower friendlier pace of being in an outlying town.
Peace
To you and to addison. I have been following this discussion and was thinking of stepping in and then Shirl did. But I think you might have come to a resolution in any case.
This is exactly how we like to work things out here and you guys did a good job. kudos.
Thanks.
I have to confess, I was following this thread from my comment page, so missed shirlstars post until after this matter was resolved. While this has been going on I’ve been busy in multiple non-other-place threads, and was just checking in that way to keep up.
Its nice to know you both were ready to step in (and did) and keep things from getting out of hand. I think that is very important.
Thank you very much for the way you handled this. I am not wanting to make anyone feel that they cannot talk openly about their concerns.
I Have very strong feelings about people from the other site “following” people over here to continue to argue something that they apparently don’t understand.
It is a bit of an edge to walk, because we want everyone to feel welcome here. But if you move because of the neighborhood, you don’t really need to have the problem from the old neighborhood following you wherever you go.
Thank you both for understanding our views, or at least my views. . .I really shouldn’t speak for anyone else.
And frankly its comforting to know others feel that way, too.
If you don’t mind, I’m going to take another lesson from this experience. I think in the future I’ll post on this kind of topic to be helpful and share other views, but I’ll leave the being being vigilant part to you and diane101 and the others.
If that makes you feel comfortable, then we do have a pretty good bunch of folks here that are usually around to help out. Not that anyone can’t if they feel so inclined.
but it sure is not a problem to send Diane or me an email to get our attention. Or if you have yahoo Instant Message you can get either one of us on that
shirlstars@yahoo.com
Really I appreciate your passion and the way you handled yourself. I have been in pretty deep over my head a few times at the place across the street, and I have appreciated those who stopped by to cool the situation down a bit.
Not that either of you were out of control, but it just seems best to try to avoid the out of control part before it happens. If you email me privately, I will explain a little more.
Okay I call a time out!
Here is my perspective as a member of dkos for over a year and a member here early enough to be #73.
Please, PLEASE, take your battles about dkos and pies and being condesending over to dkos and fight them out. This battle has a great deal of hard feelings for many people. Many of those people are new members here.
PLEASE DO NOT COME HERE TO TELL PEOPLE HOW AND WHAT THEY SHOULD DO TO RESOLVE THE PROBLEMS AT DKOS!
People who are new members here and want a rest from that, deserve a rest from that. Those of you who wish to continue it, continue it at DKos. It is not what we do here.
This is MY house too, and I don’t want to see this type of bickering in my house over something that needs to be resolved at daily kos.
Yes, as members it is your house, but the rules of this house require us to be respectful of all the people in the house.
We have a pretty nice place here, we don’t like to see it turned into carbon copies of other blogs. If you disagree with someone, after several back and forths it should be evident that you must consider agreeing to disagree. Do so and go on to something more productive.
If two or more of you have a need to continue, then email each other, but don’t bring everyone else into what is something between the two main participants.
PLEASE, again, I ask you with great respect, take fights, and disagreements about daily kos, over to daily kos. There is no solution here for you. The problem is there.
Exercise your free speech rights on this topic somewhere else. People here need to heal and rest and want to be involved in something more productive.
Thank you
Well, this was a disagreement about Booman Tribune that was related to Daily Kos. In any case I apologized.
Thank you, I appreciate it.
And I do understand the point you and Nonpartisan are attempting to make, even though I don’t at all agree with the conclusions you and he/she have come to… but what you both are not hearing, for some reason is:
Just let it be. People are here, people are there, and I imagine the vast majority of them are where they want to be right now, for whatever reason. From what I’ve observed, all of them are thinking, breathing adults, who seem capable of making their own decision. Some few people may be talking about kos, but most are not. They are looking inward to themselves, or reaching outward to others for support, affirmation, laughter and whatever they need at the time.
What most do not seem to want or need is… well… this. What this entire diary is about. It is most likely well meaning, as I mentioned earlier, but it was also rude and intrusive enough to bring even non-involved Bootrib people in to comment (including me). It’s time to just let it be, and let people adjust and take whatever time they need to make whatever decisions they wish.
As far as the people who are talking about kos, or the kos site, good or bad, that will fade in time. We’ve gone through this before, I can’t remember why, but I do remember thinking (nicely, of course) “Jeebus, will they never stop talking about the kos site?”. But that was when people were still defining themselves by their experiences there, and before we had our own identity here and people were able to gather themselves into that.
We’re in a slightly different position now, but the same thing still holds. In time those who you apparently see talking about kos all the time (I seem to miss them, for some reason) will move on to something else, and others will heal enough to go back, some will just visit and others will never go back. That’s just the way things go.
Anyway, for now I think it would be most beneficial all around if emissaries would listen, and hear and leave things alone for now.
I think/hope it’s taken care of now.
I’m sure things will resolve themselves in some fashion, but it will take time.
Thanks for understanding.
I think/hope it’s taken care of now.
Not even close
Wait, what are you referencing?
Very new around these parts. I’m familiar with Booman, himself. I think he made me laugh a lot last election season, and I’m familiar with a few others here.
I’m not a refugee from Dailykos, I haven’t left there and I have no plan to at the moment. This is a nice respite place though. I respect the choice that people have made over this incident. I’ve been very vocal about it at Dkos. And please don’t take offense at “refugee”. I’m just a little tired and groping through my vocabulary, I mean this about me and no one else.
It may be too soon to ask for the kind of healing that Nonpartisan is asking for. That’s the feeling I’m getting as I read comments. My instinct is to jump in where I see dismay has turned people so completely off that being receptive to forgiving is not even considerable. But, I know how angering this was, so I step away.
Probably what needs to happen is grant that people will come and go, blog to blog, doing what they are comfortable with. But, the damning of Kos is not something I will engage in. I believe we do have something to be grateful for what he has contributed to as an innovator and made available to all of us who care about political action. Nothing that has happened over “pie” is going to weaken the influence of Dailykos. This I believe strongly. That is part of my reason for staying there. Coming here for me was
admittedly a hope that when I don’t feel comfortable with the tone there, there may be a better one elsewhere.
So, what’s my point? I repeat that from reading this, people are not ready to forgive and forget and for good reason. But, cynical maligning should be something that we avoid.
Well, I guess I should thank Kos. The dust up over there led some posters to mention people were funneling over here. Out of curiosity, I came over and lurked a bit last night. Today I joined. And I’m very happy I did.
PS: Kid Oakland’s diaries got me into Kos in the first place. And he’s here!!! Ah, heaven!
I have nothing against Kos and I don’t care if he made mistakes, I have made many mistakes myself. I do care if he isn’t person enough to own up to mistakes or correct errors as they come up and he recognizes them as errors. By God last night I had totally had enough of being called “weak” and “running away” because that wasn’t me at all. I left because abuse was taking place and it so disgusted me to witness it. I was a complete psycho bitch by midnight last night, I mean really if people want to say the strong stay and fight – well then let’s fucking fight. He could have thrown my butt off of there last night, and I may have deserved it a few times because I was so tired and so sick of the sexual abuse I stopped making any kind of sense that I could rely on at around 9:00 p.m. He allowed me to post my Uncle’s eulogy today. I didn’t see the pie ad from hell, and I guess I’m strong because I didn’t completely leave (whatever that means). I can live and let live though. He has done more things right than wrong, and that’s about as much as I can expect from myself and everybody else I know.
I don’t believe leaving or staying on Kos makes you either weak or strong. You should go there only if you want to go there.
I was on that thread last night and you were terrific! You handled yourself magnificently, particularly considering the mentality you were up against. I couldn’t believe some of the responses I read to your dairy. I was starting to feel like I was reading “Little Green Footballs” and not the Daily Kos.
PS: I was very sorry to hear about your recent loss.
The underquoted first half of the inscription at Delphi, “Know Thyself”, teaches me that sometimes moderation is found in abstinance.
The at the very core of the pie fight, IMHO, is the tension between two axioms of good manners-
One of the earlies pie diaries left me with the following impression- that’s an ineffective and rude way to make a valid point. My id immediately proposed a response not all too different from Kos’ (or any other person who bleives that the Democratic Party is the best means to acheive social justice in these times and who remembers the factionalism that caused the Democratic Party to disintigrate in the 1970s and early 80s) – however that little thing Plato calls virtue (and I call my earlobe’s irrational fear of Grandmotherly twisting) stopped me from doing any such nasty thing. (My attempt to be thoughtful, here.)
My response to seeing Kos’ post was quite simply, “oh shit”. I bet that was his response the first time he saw it after a good night’s sleep. Probably like waking up to discover that you really did strangle your father-in-law.
Kos’ apology did suck, but it was an apology. Which gets me to my last point, graciously accepting apologies is a polite thing to do. I’m not suggesting that anyone do anything overt- like go back to Kos’ site, or apologize for heated words (some accurate and well deserved)- rather it is a good thing to simply go on about what you would like to do without the burden of feeling an unresolved wrong.
Hey Armando…You are a good man. I hope you have come back to read some of the thoughtful comments. “It is the difficulties that women/men are made of”. We all need to stick together now, more than ever before. The whole country needs a lot of healing and will need a lot more after the next 3 years of this horrific administration, it’s illegal wars and it’s con job on the American People. If we all cannot stick together as a party during these trying times..we are doomed.
…my bad–that was for women, noted above.
Again: we outnumber and outlive the men.
State population projections 2006-2010:
http://tinyurl.com/968zr
I have posted three diaries since I joined this blog, and none of them have anything to do with the pie fight over on dKos. I appreciate and respect our hosts here and want to make a positive contribution to this site.
One of the most effective ways to recover from a flame war is to start posting things on other subjects. I’d be happy to have folks read my diaries on the environment, energy, and child miners around the world. I’d be delighted to read more diaries about other issues of interest to progressives.