I purposely wrote that title to get you in here for some feedback. Please express if you thought it was failed!
SYFPH and Pie, II, were both a chance to learn for me. It will continue to be, especially if you address *any (or all!)* of my questions below.
- The definition of porn. The ad was offensive to some, no doubt. I’ve seen worse, not to justify the ad, but I also hear the voice of the offended. So “who” defines porn? What’s your definition?
- Different strokes? Nevada has legalized prostitution. Is that wrong? It’s regulated, doctors check the workers, a safe environment, etc. In my opinion, it’s the best solution. So do we go the way of Nevada or do we turn a blind eye even though prostitution will never go away?
- Individual rights-Do citizens and others have a right to stuff that’s way offensive to others? I’m a gun owner and believe in total legalization of drugs, leaning libertarian on many issues, but I’d like to hear your view. I promise I won’t scream FREEDOM!!!!! or use my founding father’s crutch, either.
- If the crowd that was so offended could raise the money that the Pie ad revenues brought in, do they deserve a “higher standard” of decency as I’d phrase it, or is it ultimately the owner’s call?
- Is this a litmus test of “you’re either with us or against us?” that many (including me) have likely failed?
- Madison Ave? Are they culpable in the sexism? What to do about women who support that?
- Women who behave in “wild” ways like spring break, Mardi Gras or many BMX or dirt biking events I’ve been to. Are they just “young and dumb” or are they part of a larger endemic problem? Describe.
I used to work as a rock climbing guide. I taught a very diverse group of people how to climb. One of my clients used to film very “edgy” porn- beating and such stuff IIRC. Your opinion…..should that have bothered me?
Don’t know what most of these are about … but here goes. First, with all respect (since I’m completely new here) – [As Crow T Robot, episode 1008, Warrior of the Lost World]
Who are you?
“Should it have bothered me?”
I don’t do “should”. I’ve seen stuff that’s apparently selling very well but that makes me a bit queasy. If it works for someone else, fine. I reserve the right to ask them why they like it, though.
Thanks for your comment.
The should thing is tricky. I’m curious I guess why it bothers people…
2) I wouldn’t say it’s wrong, as long as both males and females of any sexuality/gender are permitted, and the workers are allowed to exercise discretion about clients. Basically, as long as no coercion is involved. The instant that is – even if it’s because a prostitute has no other choice of career available to him/her – it becomes totally unacceptable.
3) That depends. In the privacy of their own homes, as long as all parties involved are thoroughly consensual and no harm is taking place? I don’t give a damn. But they don’t have a right to force me to look at it. And I have a right to express my disapproval. Loudly.
4) Ultimately the owner’s call. He made his, I made mine, he’s not getting pageviews from me anymore.
5) It depends. Are you against us? If you believe that equal rights for women and elimination of gender/sexuality discrimination are bad things, then you’re against us. If you believe that they’re positive or neutral, then you’re not.
7) I’d say part of a larger endemic problem, in this society, at this time. They’re part of a cultural reduction of women to their sexuality as controlled by men.
8) As far as I’ve seen, all the sniping’s been coming from the “other side”. I believe that consideration and discussion of women’s and gender/sexuality issues is focusing on ’06.
Thank you for dropping in!
I don’t know if I’m with you or against you. I guess that’s kind of your call. We all have our biases and lines that we don’t like to see infringed on. For me, it’s more of violence; for others it will be other things IMO.
Reproductive rights are a huge issue to me, I’m pro-life to the point of defining life as when your umbilical cord is cut.
I think differently about number 7 than you do, probably because I’m a man, but I think it’s an issue that should be addressed, posthaste! I appreciate your thought because I think it’s more of a personal behavior issue, but you bring up a point that I don’t think of much. What do you do about the women that are part of that ‘cultural reduction’?
Maybe I should flesh out Madison Avenue; I just think that the ad agencies are complicit in all this but it’s very subtle and hard to attack, I guess.
I’m also male, but not typically male by any stretch of the imagination. Not to the point of being trans-anything, but not typically male.
As for what I think of those women, I’m not sure it’s really a meaningful question. I’m not sure I’m qualified to have an opinion, seeing as I’m not female. I do believe that they may be confused or deceived by social pressure, but I also believe that that is the case for many people in many areas. (The pressure to go to college to “get a good job”, for example.) I agree that the ad agencies are complicit – or rather, I think they actively perpetuate the things you speak of, because it makes people easier to market to by reducing them to a uniform mass of uncertain sheep rather than individuals, or attempting to do so.
Corporate control of culture is a big bee in my bonnet, as it were.
Maybe its not so much “Madison Avenue” as “general hype”. In this case anyway.
I’m a woman, and I’m just really wondering about the true appeal of some of these things. Do men really enjoy, for example, female mud wrestling? How many men who claim to enjoy it have actually seen it? Of all men that have actually seen female mud wrestling, how many actually enjoyed it? If they didn’t enjoy it, did they fake it so the other guys wouldn’t think they were weird? Or maybe instead of faking it, they just complained about it being a rip-off, because its not weird for a macho man to be upset about being parted from his hard-earned money.
How many people who say ‘It’s just good clean fun” are mentally adding “for all those other people”?
Do lots of guys genuinely like this stuff? Or do they like it because everybody says they do?
I’ve been told by a lot of guys that they don’t really enjoy strip clubs. When my husband says it, I believe him. I recognize that it would possibly be a tiny lie if it came from, say, some guy I work with. Or in years past, some guy I was on a date with.
I’m using the mud wrestling example because its been around for at least thirty years and seems to be the same type of thing as the pie ad. It seems, to me, from all the hype, to be almost the holy grail of live adult entertainment for men. (Thought – maybe its a sacred cow?)
Is it all hype? Or is there genuine widespread appeal?
#7: Where does your explanation leave the free will and intelligence of women? You give women consciousness and choice in your answer to #2, but then take it away from #7, when their behavior becomes not a choice but the result of unconscious socialisation.
If it’s just a socialisation thing then it stands to reason the same is true for men’s behavior, and I doubt most would let men off the hook that easily. I think you really discount the idea that some women, like some men, are simply stupid and/or want sexualized attention more than they want self-respect. Again, that’s women AND men. I just think your explanation is a generally inaccurate, male-constructed, over-correction of an explanation.
#8: That’s not true, there’s been a LOT of sniping. See the “Kos and the FEC” diary for an example from here. Obviously the examples at dKos of sniping are plentiful, though I don’t think there are any recent ones. The point is it’s harmful no matter where it springs up. And it’s not even 06. There are elections in VA and elsewhere in ’05!
No I don’t. Read my answer carefully – I qualify it with this society and this time, both in the sense of “this society now” and “my knowledge now”. I also don’t claim that there’s no choice involved. What a strange thing to say. What I do claim is that the choice is being biased by social pressure and conditioning towards “woman as sex object”/exploitation of female sexuality. Women in that kind of situation are expected to be loose and lacking in inhibitions, not so they have fun, but so the men in attendance or watching do.
Not all coercion is physical, after all…
I still don’t understand where the choice comes in with your theory. If the pressure is so great that they have no choice, there is no choice. If the pressure is not so great that they don’t have a choice, and they still make that choice, then it isn’t all about the socialisation or pressure. So is the pressure too great or not great enough; is there no choice or a choice? And if there is a choice — because the pressure hasn’t obviated the choice — why do women make it?
Prostitutes and porn stars don’t have fun, right? They are merely ensuring that their clients — mostly male — have fun. That they get paid money is, in my mind, irrelevant. Whether it’s cash or applause you’re still not having “fun” and you’re doing it so that you can obtain something from somebody else.
I know plenty of women who are quite feminist, quite unimpressed by male standards, and quite learned about those standards, who do not ascribe their libertine and promiscuous behavior to social pressure and conditioning. They have fun being sexual.
I don’t know exactly what I think, I do know I don’t know. I just think your answers were contradictory when applied in depth, and represent a masculine over-simplification of the problem and over-correction in its solution.
Thanks for your comments, I would like to see the larger picture of corpotation and culture.
Others will give you your answers to your 8 questions and tackle the issue of gender and such. I will answer your #8, then present the situation in a different light, if that’s okay.
#8. I assume we will. The trolling on dk is frankly their problem, it pre-existed pie, and will continue to exist as long as that site refuses to recognize that trolls aren’t just people who fundamentally disagree with your positions, they are also people who agree 150% with many of your positions, but are hostile to anyone who doesn’t.
No one owes dailykos or its founder anything. He could have been more, but he’s made it clear he’s a service provider.
I don’t swear a loyalty pledge to my phone company no matter how much I liked their ads in the past, nor how many great acts of charity they do, nor how much they support causes I’m active in. If doing business with them becomes difficult, if their customer service reps are rude and dismissive of my concerns, even if ultimately the problem was in my house’s wiring and not their problem, I leave. I’d be a fool not to.
(The presenting my view on the situation in a different light (not related to sexism/gender) got a little ‘long’. So I posted it as its own diary: The Neighborhood: A Parable on Recent Events)
I have no opinion on what should or should not bother you. That’s your domain.