I don’t know quite how to begin, but here goes:
Well, the genie’s been out of the bottle for quite some time. And once the bottle’s been uncorked, look out. It’s really hard to put it back in.
I think, though, that the wide dissemination of porn really hit its stride during the 1980s to where now it is more pervasive and more accepted in American culture.
But is this a good thing or what?
In the thread, “Did age play a role in it?”, I asked near the end (with new additions in parentheses):
Nor am I a prude. I went through the Seventies…been there, done almost everything.
But…hell, there’s a limit. Maybe it’s because I am a writer (and use the printed word to create the vision in the mind of a place, time and people. All my characters have no access to TV; movies and radio are in their infancy or about to be created at this point. Bellocq’s ‘dirty’ photos of whores in New Orleans bordellos, for example, seem rather tame today. Attraction, fantasy and coupling were certainly different then. So were societal mores. I could see these kinds of pictures in someone’s trunk in a cigar box. (Their secret, buried treasure trove.)
There were also very few photographs going around of black women that were highly sexualized and exploitative. They were out there, but you’ll find them in European or European American homes or collections. And if a black man even kept a white woman’s picture, scantily-clad or wearing nothing, if he could afford the cards, lord help him (if he was found out). I’ve read of blacks in the service being forced to take down photos of white actresses or showgirls in their lockers before Jim Crow and after Vietnam for fear of being beat up or brought up on trumped up charges or infractions and punished.
But that was about the size of men’s titillation at that time. Things are sure different now, although I wouldn’t like to see the porn that Japan puts on its late night TV. Porn to me is just a side dish, a change in the menu, not meant to be overused. It’s not breakfast, lunch and dinner. That’s what scares me. <u>Is it supposed to be everywhere?</u>
And it still scares me. It ain’t–har, har–buried treasure any more.
I remember watching a 8 mm film of interracial sex with a white male “friend” (that’s what I’ll call him)–something that was supposed to help me get me in the mood.
It didn’t. I told him to turn it off after a few minutes and he only did it after I insisted on it several times. Because the woman was very obviously doing it for money, and she was no actress–that is, she wasn’t being coached. So she wsa simply moving very slowly and deliberately putting herself into positions. She did not look into the camera, she did not smile with ‘enjoyment.’ It was a film where she was responding to simple commands. It turned me off completely.
Yet the guy beside me thought it was a major cinematic find. I guess for the content, in the Seventies, it was. I couldn’t generate anything close to what propelled me to come over to his home for an afternoon together. I had to leave him, start all over again. Of course, he was ticked. But it was my mind and my body. I didn’t want to feel polluted.
And yet what really turns me on some days (one of my better fantasies) are my remembrances of one particular afternoon that we spent together, where he brought some mirrors into the mix. Narcissistic, yeah. But I saw myself giving and receiving. I saw him. It was a hellalot better than watching that film.
There was a point in my life where I thought that I would go see porn films since I was not in a relationship and the AIDS crisis had just begun. There was a women’s night where I found I could go for free without an escort in this little theatre in the Marina District of San Francisco. So I got to know who Ron Jeremy was. I liked some of the plots, and that helped my enjoyment. I got bored quick with the woman on woman action. Some of the interracial encounters were primo. The women looked as if they enjoyed things. There wasn’t any conspicuous consumption due to the low budget, although the music was thumping and the outfits were shiny. When I had enough, I left.
A couple of men realized that I was sitting there enjoying the programs along with all the other men and couples, and they tried to hit it off with me. I was horrified. This was before VCRs and I was not trawling for companionship. The guy at the stale popcorn stand who was the unofficial bouncer escorted me back and walked around the theatre and I wasn’t appraoched again that night. But I had to leave and get a cab for the second guy another night who was too insistent on horning in on my pleasure. Then, when it was possible, I got a VCR. But I didn’t get porn all that much and I still don’t.
Flash ahead to the era of the music video.
I don’t watch too many music videos. Again, it’s not just a generational thing, but more of a sexual thing. This is mostly eyecandy for guys ages 13-35. The bodies are perfect, probably too perfect. They’re not only selling records, they are also selling types of women to guys. They are seeing what they should be lookng for in a woman. Hence MTV and BET are promoting the commodification of women’s bodies in a way not seen in years. It all sells.
Add to this the ascendancy of the Repubs in the 1980s. They were going to reinforce sexual as well as racial culture <u>before</u> the so-called calamitous Sixties and Seventies. And it seemed that Americans yearned for this kind of reinforcement and less experimentation and critique. It as if it were all a bad dream, that era. Ripe for putdown and reevaluation.
I’m not going to say that mistakes weren’t made. They were. But that’s what happens when you decide (multiplied a few hundred thousand) to figure out what you want.
A couple of feminists I met in the 1980s even suggested the sexual revolution was more geared towards men rather than women, a premise that I have yet to agree with or prove for myself.
But mistakes have been made, for example, in making Sinatra and his Rat Pack another indicator of male sexuality, when we know where the flipside of that sexuality ultimately brought some of its promotors: alcoholism, excess and violence. I think that making certain aspects of hip-hop mores–hardness, hypermasculinity, one-sided sexual pleasure–accessible to the mainstream has made things worse as well. I think mistakes have been made allowing porn into advertising, where people–consumers–take it for granted.
I’ve also a member of a few black listserves. In one, a black man who described himself as a poet and educator talked about his affairs with former students until one of his children, a daughter (about the same age as the students) finally persuaded him to stop. Now, in the era of hip-hop and music videos, he’s angry because it appears he cannot partake in the phenomenon of older black males bringing young girls into bars to get them drunk and ultimately have sex with them. He blames the girls for being more knowledgeable and accessible, while he’s left with being a nice guy.
Sounds like Dole and his Viagra.
No, every man cannot be a playa, a superfly, or a cool cat. The question that I have is, what can a man be beyond all the smoke and pump-up?
I found old codger Robert Redford dancing with Kristin Scott Thomas in The Horse Whisperer and Sarah and Karl in Love Actually moving towards each other to Norah Jones’ “Turn Me On” more erotic than some of this trash consumed today. But maybe that is age, too.
One more thing. In the early 1980s, feminists sought to convene on issues of sex, porn and the erotic. They found it wasn’t going to be easy. The site where the conference was going to be held was taken away from the participants at the last moment. Death threats were phoned in. Feminists split into anti-porn and anti-anti-porn feminists. The 20th anniversary of the publication of Carole Vance’s landmark book, “Pleasure and Danger,” a collection of papers from the conference, passed last year. But a lot of people don’t hear about this information. Or that even a couple of black women contributed to the book, trying to make something rational out of a historyand culture that saw black women as mere objects and seuxal beings They just hear that feminists are trying to spoil their fun, not make them think.
Okay, I know that I am just throwing this out there. I know that some of it is barely connectable or makes sense. I’m sure I am going to be putdown. No, I am not. I’m different. I’m a grown-assed woman in my own way. I just think that Generation X, Y, Z and etc. resist critiquing phenomena that might be pleasurable in the short-run but dangerous in the long-run. They may be too fixated on machine-generated or artificial pleasure. To me, porn is no joke. It’s private, like the decision to have an abortion. It’s not for everyone to chew on, especially kids. We’ve had about 25 years of this, along with the technologial advances that make it more accessible.
What’s the limit? And where do we all go from here, even beyond the Pie Fight??
This is my first post on Booman. Please be constructive.
I’m wondering if we can start with a definition of pornography. I ask, because I’m a feminist who writes erotica, and I want to try to come to some definition of the terms. I agree that there’s a lot to be angry about, but I do think that visual and literary representations of sexuality can be healthy. This does not justify pedophilia, rape, or any of the non-consensual exploitation, but consenting adults having sex on a screen doesn’t bother me. (Doesn’t do anything for me either, but doesn’t bother me.)
Yeah, we definitely need a working definition. So much of the sexualized imagery out there is being disseminated for purposes other than arousal and titillation (like to make us feel inadequate so that we buy even more useless crap), but it… indoctrinates … is the best word I can find right now (although as I’ve been wasting my Sunday writing about carpets I am exceeding mind-numbed at the moment.).
Porn versus erotica
Pornography actually comes from the greek to write about prostitutes (porn graph)
Erotica comes from “eros,” which is love.
Even in the two definitions, there’s a distinction involved.
In our modern context, perhaps we can talk about context. Pornography seems to center on the sexual act itself; erotica involves the emotions associated with sex.
After that, it gets difficult for me because not all pornography is exploitive, but much of it is.
And, like a lot of modern advertising, it seems to promote (as has been said) an attitude of “inadequacy,” whether it’s the female body or the male appendage.
I also think the hip-hop aspect, which seems to simultaneously promote bling and sex is problematic. I’m a white woman, and I have the same problem with hip hop videos that I have with “lifestyles of the rich and famous.” The emphasis on material possession coupled with the idea that riches buys you all the women you could possibly possess, thus turning us into fetish objects.
Erotica comes from “eros,” which is love.
Lorraine- yes, this is the difference- the emotions of love- that makes erotica ok in my book. But porn seems to take out all the good emotions and encourages extremely primitive often sub-human ‘stuff’-
I feel that almost anything goes between two consenting adults, It is fun to explore, but in my experience- and I have LOTS of experience- the man always wants to take it another step-looking for a bigger thrill- How many women out there have been asked to have sex with another woman for the guys pleasure? It seems some men, or at least many that I have encountered are never satisfied, but I would also add that alcohol and/or drugs was usually involved with the wanting of yet a bigger thrill.
So once a guy wants to bring something or someone from the outside into ‘us’ that’s when it’s ruined for me and I leave. I don’t know what that says about me, but I’ve had some doozies…
you must have been with my last husband at one point…lol. Same scenerio. I married him around the time I had ten years clean and sober. He introduced me to erotica, coke and then the wanting to bring another woman into our sexual experience. That is when I said enough is enough. I left him. Later I found out from a former girlfriend of his that he was bisexual, as was she so they had alot of orgy type experiences but she left him when she found him in bed with his teenage daughter. A real sicko!
I agree that what is portayed on the air waves these days is way over the top. I just change the channel. I like erotica in the word and film but in the privacy of my own home, when I choose to view it. Not when it is being forced on me. IMHO there is a huge difference between Porn and erotica as was pointed out by definition upthread.
I agree with your distinction between porn and erotica.
It seems to me though that we need a third category to for the use of sexual images to manipulate, if only because the context (modification fo consumer behavior) is different from both porn and erotica.
The problem, though, is that a lot of “porn”, strictly speaking, also falls into that category. While it may or may not be intentional, it has the effect of defining “sexy” body types and “normal” abilities and aptitudes. I remember reading about some serious problems with youth in some European country (Sweden?), because they were all comparing themselves to porn stars, and thus had serious self-esteem issues…
… Which, of course, were being used to sell them products galore. Beauty products, fashions, etc, etc.
That’s exactly what the conference in the 1980s sought to define.
I apologize for the misspellings in the opening text. It’s amazing when you spend an entire morning trying to form your thoughts, and you still get some things wrong.
I want porn to be available, up to a point.
When it turns into something expected, even when there is no need for it to be present everywhere, then that’s when I believe it becomes a mechanism–even a political one–to dismiss women’s feelings. It’s like someone saying, “Shut up bitch. Take it,” when the pain and the discount are immense.
Take your run of the mill porno video. It’s a series of couplings, pretty clinical. Woman’s grinding, guy’s groaning. They go round and round, the camera taking a gynecological/urological perspective. She sounds like she’s coming the whole time; he finally comes for the money shot, which means he comes all over her face.
This is a convention similar to the women in bodice busters always being virgins before sleeping with the guy they’ll eventually marry.
In porn videos, both actors are exploited; both are basically prostitutes being filmed.
The money shot, though, makes it clear that it’s a male fantasy (and thus a male jerk-off aid) and not a woman’s. Most women don’t fantasize about or masturbate to images of men coming in their faces.
Regular porn is designed to get men to part with their money so they can jerk off to a cliche they share with other men — a lie about sex intended to make money off men.
So men are exploited. But, on the other hand, common porn reinforces the image of women as loving humiliation. Women are humiliated so men can jerk off to them being humiliated.
Does that mean that porn exploits women? It uses the image of women to get men off. So, yes, porn exploits women as well.
But we live in a capitalist society, which glorifies exploiting other human beings to make money. It’s hard to separate “pure” gender exploitation from run-of-the-mill capitalist exploitation. Even when it comes to sex and love.
Too often, though, when people start to make the distinction between erotica and pornography (or “pron” as we call it at our house) it comes down to this:
If it turns me on, it’s erotica.
If it turns anyone else on, it’s porn.
If it turns anyone else on, it’s erotic as well.
If it doesn’t, it may be porn, or it may be just plain disinterest.
IMHO The bad parts about porn-
It can be addictive to some men
It gives men high expectations
It makes men objectify women
It’s exploitive in the worse sense-
And on a personal level- why do people like to live vicariously through others?? This is the same mentality that wannabees of sports stars, movie stars, singers etc., Live your own life and if you don’t like your life change it. Stop wasting time and money by “living’ their lives. How boring. This is the epitome of the dumbing down process-being happy sitting on your couch watching others ‘have and do it all’.
I’d rather be having the sex with my partner than watching others having it. I feel sorry for people who need that outside stimulation to get them going.
I take issue with the phrase “raises expectations” I would say it changes expectations.
I mean think about it, how naturual is it to like someone more because part of their body is now full of plastic. Imagine if women really needed penises to be “plastic enhanced.” Would you think of those women and having raised expectations or just altered ideas about what was hot.
was that a pun? LOL!!
I have known many men- from a man with a very tiny penis to one who was so well hung that he could barely use it as it could never get hard enough- too much blood needed or whatever and he told me of the ‘burden’ that was for him. Frankly I am glad it didn’t work cause I surely would have been impaled.
The little guy suffered the same misery at the other end- it was too little to pleasure anyone..
So what is hot? What often appears ‘hot’ is just an illusion- reality does suck sometimes but I kind of like Love the one you’re With…especially in a relationship scenario.
OK well. Think of this. Why do American Men stand out as breast obsessed? What’s hot is partly cultural (yes,yes, I know the hip to waiste ratio, semitry, la, la la).
But you can’t say cultural images don’t have some impact.There is a pavlovian element there. If each time you reach ogasm there is a picture of a dinosaur eating a fish, after a while does that become “hot.” Is that raising the bar?
What you look at changes you. I’m not an advocate of censorship, but I am a fan of zoning.
Put another way. If “younger” is raising the bar then is the “highest level” child molestation? See I don’t even think you should use the words “raising”. Its pejoritive.
A girl friend of mine in about 1970.
She was recovering from a long romance with a nice guy, who had called it off because he was gay.
She had lost weight from a size 18 to a size 14–about a size 10 today; at just over 5′ she was still a bit plump, but would be nearly average now.
Nonetheless, her body image sucked.
Then she started dating a nice guy. And she let him know how she felt; a bit intimidated by playboy images, etc. And bless the guy, that’s what he told her–that a real woman was a lot more interesting and cuddly than a piece of paper.
A couple of years later, she married him.
I can’t say the marriage ended well–she died of cancer when their son was still a teen. But it didn’t end badly in the usual sense.
My biggest issue with porn is that it is made almost exclusively for men, and that people in general have a tendency to act as if it this proves that women are much less likely to enjoy porn, rather than explore the idea that a lot of women don’t like the porn that exists because it is almost always made for men.
I used to think that I didn’t like porn, and pretty much accepted the assertion that it was because I was female, and so must automaticaly like written erotica more than images and that I always needed relationships even in my sexual fantasies.
I’ve learned over the past few years that this just isn’t so. It makes me wonder how many women are assuming the same things aboout themselves as I used to assume about myself.
In the end, the fact that almost all porn being made is being made for men means that women’s sexuality continues to be defined by men and not women. I find the assumption that the version of female sexuality that is often portrayed in porn is the only type that exists to be one of the most damaging aspects of porn being made only for men. It’s not just that out bodies are idealized according to male desires, but that our own sexuality is idealized according to male desires. It’s similar to how guys are often portrayed in Romance novels, except that the the romance novels have more variety, and people deride romance novels, but accept the definition of female sexuality that is found in porn for men as a fact.
What are the business barriers to such an enterprise? If there is such a hole in the market, then it would be very profitable to, well, exploit the absence of competition.
I like porn but I like erotica better. It’s mainly because there’s an actual plot line involving character development in erotica instead of in porn where it’s all about the sex, not the characters. I’ve found very few porn videos involving a plot line with characters that you could relate to. I have no issues with other people enjoying that kind of porn. I just don’t want them to enjoy it in the workplace or on website forums that are wholly unrelated to porn or soft-core porn (see pie ad+Dailykos for example).
Do you enjoy posting things on the internet? If you take 5 minutes to look into it, it is PORN and almost nothing but PORN that pays for your pleasure to do this. The revenue streams produced by almost every thing else on the internet are insignificant. PORN is why you can blog away for free. Nude photos (and eventually other forms of digital intellectual property) are the currency of the digital age.
Unfortunately, in an environment awash with such images, it is the extreme images that garner attention and then profits. The envelop will always be pushed (hard to think about porn in 10 years – ew!).
Corporations have entered and dominate the digital porn market in many ways, as they did with gaming and Las Vegas. It is a process as American as apple pie: Something is evil until it makes $$ and then it is eventually thought of as essential and even “good”. Except in the case of porn, where being “dirty” or “evil” is a necessary selling point. Porn is merely essential.
forced me to the conclusion that scores of men know nothing about female sexuality and aren’t keen to learn. There is very little authentic sexuality in the pouting and posing of most porn films and stills. There is some. My arbitrary line between pornography and erotica comes down to one simple word: context. Women are relational beings. We need a story line, not random images of sexual acts. When there is no context, we create one. We see beyond the edge of the frame and tell ourselves stories — those stories depend on our experience, and we react accordingly. So porn can make us scared and angry, because some image or dynamic throws us back into the time we were raped or the demeaning conversation we overheard about women kissing for male entertainment. It is rarely about just an image disconnected from every other moment in our lives. Men can look at a pair of jiggling boobs and care about nothing else — nothing.
A couple of feminists I met in the 1980s even suggested the sexual revolution was more geared towards men rather than women, a premise that I have yet to agree with or prove for myself.
I absolutely agree with this. I read an article years ago that was subtitled “The Sexual Revolution is Over: Women Lost.” It was replete with examples of exploited teenage girls. Not only are we still sexually objectified, we are no longer able to hide in the respectable refuge of virginity. We are expected to put out, because, you know, we are now sexually free. I still hear of women’s souls being ripped out from between their legs every day.
If there was one thing that the pie fight brought home for me, it was just that. That so many men have no desire to hear to what pushes a woman’s sexual buttons. It is the most sexual, not the most prudish of women, who have visceral, heart rending reactions to the visual molestation of some images. But, if we react, we are somehow anti-erotic. We don’t want sex on their terms, so we must be prudes.
it was like watching some strang religion “cult of the penis”
If there was one thing that the pie fight brought home for me, it was just that. That so many men have no desire to hear to what pushes a woman’s sexual buttons. It is the most sexual, not the most prudish of women, who have visceral, heart rending reactions to the visual molestation of some images. But, if we react, we are somehow anti-erotic. We don’t want sex on their terms, so we must be prudes.
and taking the poll.
The vast majority of porn I’ve seen forced me to the conclusion that scores of men know nothing about female sexuality and aren’t keen to learn.
Out of selfishness, fear of women, fear of failure, abject laziness. You choose. It doesn’t mean I give up on men. The only thing is, how do we wean some other men from this bankrupt state of affairs? Women aren’t always able to do this: sometimes women conspire in others’ unhappiness.
I see this a lot in how some black women cling to their sons even to the point of their dismissing the son’s wives and girlfriends or helping to sabotage their marriages. I’ve seen this destruction in my own family, and it isn’t pretty.
There has also got to be a difference in how white women view their sexuality and how black women view their own sexuality. A lot of it is cultural, but some things are shared. Let me tell you something: there are still black women laboring under the spectre of slavery. It’s always about the mechanics of sex. (That’s why the late Barry White and Marvin Gaye and Luther Vandross are still popular, even though they are old school, because they lingered on enjoyment of the female body and of female emotion.) Many black women don’t even know where their clitoris is, or think that it’s ‘nasty’ to think about these things. Many black women are pressured by the church to deny their sexuality, whether straight or lesbian. And many black women are frigid, regardless of class.
There is very little authentic sexuality in the pouting and posing of most porn films and stills. There is some. My arbitrary line between pornography and erotica comes down to one simple word: context.
Agreed.
I will say too that there were visits to the old Marina District theatre that grossed me out. There were also enjoyable, funny moments, but they were few and far between. It was a learning experience.
The last time I picked up a porn video was in 2000. I got bored and scandalized at turns and brought it back the next night. I hate to think what the videos are like now. Which makes me wonder why men–and the men of the Kos World as I think about it–support and extol this kind of thing.
I used to think of porn mags as a growing experience for younger guys and for older men who were married (an uncle was a Methodist bishop and had Playboy’s in his study “for the articles.”) Both grew out of it in the real world.
But a steady inundation of it makes me think that there is something juvenile about its proliferation. As if these kinds of men just refuse to grow up and relate to women as beings, like you said.
My experience is that porn is so easy to find and so over the top in content that many people have become desensitised at an early age. I knew a guy who had seen so much and done so much at 23 that sex itself was never enough. I found that very sad.
Remember when it was all new and because it was all new, even the touch of lips on yours was over the top sexual stimulation… the first time someone touched a “forbidden” body part? But you weren’t sure, everything was tentative and risky. Would he or wouldn’t he.. would you let him?
Remember the first time you were touched by someone you loved, who loved you back. Remember when talking dirty wasn’t necessary because “God I love you”, being ripped from your lover’s gut during orgasm was the sexiest thing you had ever heard? Remember trying to fall asleep but being all over each other again 15 minutes later because the brush of a hand or a thought or a deepening of the other person’s breath made you want to consume them all over again? Remember talking all night and having your lover/spouse/SO go get orange juice with ice because you were in serious danger of passing out from dehydration?
I don’t think kids have that anymore. At least not the ones who have seen done and said everything there is to see do and say before they are 20.
What is with all the clever positions? Don’t you remember when they weren’t necessary?
What is with that snear all the girls in those movies do? What is with the “take it bitch” dialogue? If that is what you are experiencing at 25, what are you going to do for stimulation at 45?
As for the pie add… please, two straight women acting like bimbos and pretending to be turned on…. I refuse to believe that men are that pathetic. I think they all defend the fake attraction of that nonsense just to egg each other on like juvenile school boys defending their right to say “shit” or “asshole” outside of their secret clubhouse.
What is with the “take it bitch” dialogue?
I’m going to keep saying it until someone gives me a satisfactory answer to my question.
Why are there no women in commercial pornography? There are only sluts, bitches, teens, girls, barely legals, wives, nurses… never women. What? Are women unsexy? Do I have to be defined by my age, my supporting role in male culture, my degraded status, to rate as sexual? I really think male dominated culture is terrified of authentic female sexuality.
Rk, that’s basically my problem with porn in a nutshell. It’s not a celebration of sexuality or anything like that. It’s a reduction of female sexuality – or sexuality in general – to things that fit into a “male-dominated” culture. I’m not willing to rule out the possibility of porn that doesn’t do that, but such a thing seems unlikely in our culture.
I don’t think the problem is actually pornography. I think the problem is the culture that gives it its shape. And, here, I’m not talking about the porn industry. I’m talking about sexist culture over-all. Porn is a place where we can point to and say, women are being degraded. Women are being degraded everywhere and have been throughout recorded history. We are degraded when we are paid less for the same work. We are degraded when our voices are shouted down. We are degraded when pregnancy is viewed medically, as an illness. I could go on, but you get the point.
The thing about pornography that makes it so charged is that it is a place where something primal, personal, and powerful in women is being degraded. Female sexuality is under attack, in our culture. It is suppressed, exploited, damaged, stolen, vilified. None of this is because of images of sex. It’s just that those images reflect that process, in so many cases.
Not all pornography degrades women. There is explicit sexual material that doesn’t. Women write erotica. Some women even produce pornographic films that don’t degrade women. But like every other bit of media, advertising, etc., the bulk of commercial porn is geared to men who either hate or don’t understand women. Lots of men who don’t hate women at all watch it, because all they see is the jiggling boobs. They tune out all the “slut, whore, bitch” crap. Just tune it out. For many women, myself included, it’s impossible to do that. I feel assaulted when I open my email every day and have to delete volumes of “teen slut takes hard cock,” “cum drinking bitches,” etc. I don’t like what it says about our culture and the way it views female sexuality.
Precisely. This is the case with many things. There’s no a priori problem with a masculine viewpoint. Rather, the problem comes from a culture that takes that viewpoint and accentuates the negative while diminishing the positive.
Or, even worse, become desensitized to it.
Or, for that matter, male sexuality.
I had forgotten about how awful online porn tends to be with all that “slut/bitch/whore” stuff (I don’t think porn videos are nearly as bad, but I confess I haven’t seen that many or that recently). I really believe (or hope, anyway) that this represents the mentality of the porn producers rather than a wide swath of consumers. I tend to think that a lot in general: that porn is much less responsive to consumer appetites than a lot of entertainment media. That is, as you say, a lot of guys will be like “hey, there’s hot naked chicks in here” so they go for it even if the way it’s presented isn’t what they’d ideally prefer. Especially since there isn’t much out there to compete and offer a more agreeable and less hostile format.
At least, again, I hope that’s the case. It doesn’t speak well for my gender if I’m wrong.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
My radar went up when I saw the comment about pregnancy. My wife and I intended to have a homebirth with our first. It didn’t work out, but a lot of our friends (and our kids’ playmates) were born at home, often under water (also what we were intending to do).
Alan
Maverick Leftist
Didn’t work out for us either. Medical complications. I ended up in the hospital. My midwife was awesome, though. She stayed with us throughout. Where did I mention pregnancy?
You mentioned it real quickly in the post I responded to.
We actually had an incredible doctor named Laurel Walter (she asked us to just call her “Laurel” who was trained in the midwifery model of care. When my wife’s water broke and two days went by without labour starting, she recommended induction, even though she much preferred homebirth (and had homebirthed her own kids). So we went to the hospital and had a marathon session of induced birth, including labour that stretched over parts of three days, and finally a six hour pushing stage! Laurel was there, able to be the attending doctor the whole time (she was teaching the nurses lots of new wrinkles along the way), and she managed to keep the hospital’s OBs from sniffing around too much or they would have freaked out at the idea of six hours of pushing. In the end, our nine pound son with 99th percentile head circumference managed to make it out vaginally, even with his little fist held right alongside his temple! (Ow.)
Diane, do you have a link to that diary? Sounds cool.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
Did you see my diary a couple days ago about Home birth vs. hospital birth. I am sure you would be interested in it.
Here’s a thought that I was going to save for a longer diary later, but I think fits into this discussion pretty well…
What the fuck is up with the t-shirts that young women are wearing these days? I live in LA and I see it all the time. I’m sure you’ve seen them:
“My boyfriend is out of town”
“Slut”
“I leave bite marks”
“Don’t Hate Me Because I’m Beautiful. Hate Me Because I’m a bitch!”
“Dump him” (or something to that effect)
They’ve been everywhere and it drives me crazy!
Seriously… 2004 was not the happiest of years for me. Especially when it came to relationships (I’m 30 and “dating”). I started to get a little nihilistic about the whole thing, and everywhere I turned I just had this same kind of shallowness reinforced.
Hmmmm…looks like these women should be hooking up with guys with the wrong teeshirts, too.
You know, you’ve seen them, too. Insensitive, borderline misogynist ones as well.
They may be the product of what we’re talking right here: the influence of too much porn and too little self-respect.
You certainly deserve better.
Thanks, blksista. It’s definitely more than just the t-shirts… I think you’re right to consider a porn/t-shirt connection. But I’d probably refine the causal model a bit and talk about both porn and the t-shirts as a symptom of something deeper. The lack of strong family ties, the lack of older mentors in our lives, the incredible mobility of the population, and the twisted messages thrown in our faces by the marketing machines.
I realize I may be sounding like a right-wing family values nut.
What do we think about that? I don’t think the wingers are completely insane when they look out the window and see problems. But where they get in trouble is that they lack a deep understanding of the phenomena, and they too often boil things down to good vs evil. Talking about sex at the level that’s happening on this thread seems much more constructive.
As for my personal interaction with the t-shirted women… it’s not that I’m necessarily interacting with them directly. My concern is more for the subtle, but similar moods out there in the culture at large. (This sounds like a topic that I’m sure has been covered here in the last week.)
I totally agree with you that this is where we start talking like wingnuts. I am certainly distressed over the lack of community, especially where I am in Harlem. I will be leaving soon, but people have been really hard to get to know here because of the economics here. You’ve also got to belong to a church in order to make connections–and I am Buddhist. It’s very insular simply because Harlem is one of the last places where speculation in real estate is rife and there are many people who are barely hanging on. The wages here are shyt. Fifty percent of black men living here in Harlem do not have a job.
I do remember that while I was growing up in New Orleans and in California, guys my stepfather’s age were happy to have jobs and have families and to interact in a community.
You are also correct that wingnuts tend to look at what is happening now as a harbinger of the Last Days, rather than Repub (and unfortunate Dem) economic and political policies since Johnson. That also makes people want to give up and leave it to Jesus. I wish we could stop with the Jesus and depend on ourselves for once and envisage what we could accomplish with our own two hands and getting to know our neighbors. Because the country is going to hell for hoping that Jesus is going to be pleased with this result.
The lack of self-respect is also endemic among young women. I did not think that you were interacting with the teeshirt girls, but you do deserve better.
I think the problem with the wingers is simple. They want to treat the symptoms, not the disease. They want to wallpaper over the problems with legions of hymn singing, lockstep-marching clones. After all, then everyone fits in, right?
Of course, the problem with this theory is that we then have to find out what the real problem is…
You’re so right. (I was a born-again Christian, in my teens, and I figured out that the endless humming of a gospel tunes was really just a tool to suppress the cognitive dissonance.) But, I have the same problem with the feminist anti-porn crowd. The disturbing content in pornography is symptomatic of a much deeper cultural bias against women and against our independent sexuality. But, banning it would just be stuffing the problem under the carpet. It would do nothing to change those deeply held cultural biases. Does a lot of porn reinforce these beliefs? No doubt. But pornographers cannot be blamed for the sexism inherent in our culture. As MAJeff points out, gay male porn doesn’t degrade women. There are no women in it. There is a body of lesbian produced, lesbian porn that doesn’t degrade women either. So, the problem is not sexually explicit material. It’s the culture.
to be cool, to have boyfriends a girl must be sexually available and non discriminating. That is where the culture is going now. If you object you are frigid, inhibited and a prude.
Reminds me of I think it was a Berlin song where a woman goes through a list of all the roles she plays sexually, and to each one all her partner can say is, “I’m a man!”
I’m a goddess/I’m a man!
I’m a geisha/I’m a man!
I’m a drug/I’m a man!
Am I bi?/I’m a man!
etc.
There’s nothing wrong with playing pretend. It’s fun!
The problem is that commercial porn is geared to men, so generally speaking the women play pretend for the benefit of the viewer, and rarely the man. There IS commercial porn produced for women. I direct you to the work of Candida Royale, for starters, and some of us remember the magazine On Our Backs, which was lesbian-oriented but still hot as hell.
And guys, come up with a better answer than “I’m a man!” Let’s try:
I’m a cowboy/I’m a woman!
I’m a sheik/I’m a woman!
I’m a biker/I’m a woman!
I’m a slave/I’m a woman!
ANYthing!
I also found out that Susie Bright was probably frequenting the same porn palaces at the same time I was. Who knew?
Much more fun this way:
I’m a goddess/I’m a god
I’m a geisha/I’m a sheik
I’m a drug/I’m a biker
Am I bi?/I’m your slave
there ya go! dress-up and pretend are not just for little kids. Big kids can play too.
Well said! I hope this sentiment finds a larger audience . These are the kind of undercurrents that I’ve detected over in Kos for a while. And in the culture at large for many years… It’s a relief to see this being discussed here.
I hope so too.
Thank you Adam, You are right on there. As a 60 y/o and one of those who got her butt whipped last week, I can definately say, that my wish for these/you youngus to be my future, is simply failing me right now.
I have read with great intensity the whole diary of comments here and find it rather interesting in text. I think we have to take this very seriously in order to work out an agreement to who is who in the the nature of pecking order..or so they say in the mans world.
As some of us here would like to declare, I burned my bra a long time ago and wish not to go thru that one again. I have to admit, I have watched my own sort of porn, many years ago. I really had not one take on it, like take it or leave it, attitude. I thought how shallow on both the male and female. But one has to consider the time I grew up and what was being taught at the time from our mothers…sort of victorian in a sense. My mother shied away from teaching me about sex, for she, herself, did not know all that much about it herself. All she know is that we were there for mens enjoyment. To get pregnant and give birth. In other words give pleasure, even if you do not recieve pleasure. [that was her role to be played, which she was taught or concieved by her mother, and so forth] Once I ventured into the REAL world, I learned so much about human nature and how things were put together to make things run…sexuality..I played that game till I thought to myself, I am a person that desires more than being used…
I thought anyhow!….For you see,I happened to marry 2 men that was like what my mother envisioned in my marriage…They played with me till I was not needed any longer for their pleasure…they placed me upon that shelf of wifehood till I was needed again..NOw mind you I use the word needed, not wanted…I was place into objectivity…a play thing.In five years I was pregnant 3 times. so tell me I was not played with….:o) Even tho I was dead tired and in rage about something that was going on. What it was I just couldnt place my finger on right then….
THEN
When I made my move to being my own person, these men could not handle what I had become. I was of an independent mind on what “I” wanted in return…and that was pleasure as well..not just relief of a hard on but pleasure..sincere and loving pleasure…Upon discussing what I wanted in marriage, I was told hey that is cool…I see your point..but once the act of marriage occured, all that changed…call it snookered or what ever you want…I was fooled on meanings I suppose, bad communication or what ever…it doesnt matter anymore to me.
I know for a fact that both husbands were doing porn…They would look at the beauty of which they thought I was not, their fantancy so to speek..only in their own minds. All I was, was a name of which they declared “wife” attached to and for the most part, had not one iota of thought as to what that really meant or what I actually wanted for that matter. My first husband was 3 years younger than I, barely …My second husband was 16 years older than I,whew!!!from one extreme to another!..At I thought what if I was to play that game and fantisize too and then things would be all better…calling upon my own codependency for that move….Well, needless to say, that didnt work either. You see, now I identified the real problem with ME,,I did not want to play games with my emotions. I was asked not to be independent any longer. I was aksed to comform…I am not a comformer…no not me!!!! :o)
What can be said about either erotic or pron..well, as I matured, I happened to get wiser and see through the process of it all…I couldnt have done that many years ago, for that matter…but I can today..Not only I dont get lonely and I desire good sex…for I do…I am just plain and simple, PICKY with whom I do it with and for the reasons I do it with..now you are questioning in your minds {does she even have sex anymore?] Hell yes I do…and I enjoy it tremendously and I dont have to look at any movies or any more to get it done either. I have a s/o that is great! It is called communication between man and woman and what pleases them both..foreplay is very important and very explicit in my life. That makes it run longer…for age, one has to consider my age and all..ha ha..call it an all nighter if you want, which startes with suggestive looks and romantic dinners, holding hands, throwing a kiss to, etc….but it is very pleasureable for me and my partner. I shall never again put on a certificate of marriage that I belong to anyone else! I share myself with my S/O and he does me as well…a very rewarding relationship, to say the least. Now take me back to my victorian mother who tried to make me in her mold..she probably is turning over in her grave right now. But I am me and that is who I am…I do not like porn..but I do like love and sex combined into a realtionship for those two things go hand in hand. To me that is a rare thing that both men and women a can have with respect attached at the end. Maybe I am wrong, but it works for me..that is all I am saying..I do not need a film or a picture to make me feel sexy or to make love to the man of my choise. I happen to know that is the way he feels as well..
I know that a nice looking male or female is good to look at for I know they take good care of themselves, or so I think. I just know that too much pressure has been place on both sides of this to be better and more aluring than should be. Look at the ads nowadays from victoria’s secret to hanes underware…you name it..even levi jeans does it..They have turned sex into something that sells things..That is where things get a bit tangled, I think. The kids of today seem to think they have to be sexy to be that ad in and of itself. They, the kids and some adults have been lead astray..for yes outward beauty is good to see, but then what is going on inside that person, as well…are the beautiful in side? I would like to think yes, but many arent…and that there inlies the problem…They think they have to fix it to be that person on the outside…leading to much more distruction of the personality and soul, ie, bolemia, anorexia, peer pressure, you name it, even shootings in schools. The religous right have gotten a hold of this and made their move. so help me God, they will distroy a wet dream even for themselves, They do not get the picture at all…They talk a mighty big talk, but do not walk the walk, in my opinion. Leading to a lot of bad damage control for others to have to deal with. They are some sick puppies out there…
Sorry to have gone on for ever in my life’s
story here, to a degree, with lots left out, but I think you get the drift. I am not nieve nor am I a prude…I just happen to be a little older and have been there done that, so to speek…I am not going to refight that battle again…I can advise if wanted, but I will not refight it again…Like in many wars of which I was in one of them, to give up that hill to have to retake it again over and over is just not worth the fight. Either you stay with winning or you retreat and do not speak of it to me again. Sorry for having upset any apple carts here, I do agree with most of what has been said…I suppose to say, winning is not that important to ME any longer…sorry…
I think the pervasiveness and ready availability of porn does damage some relationships. Some men get quite addicted to it and spend more and more time looking at it. I don’t think that does much for relationships, especially if one partner hides it from the other. Using porn together is quite different.
There are some interesting books about the phenomenon, including one called Centerfold Syndrome that puts forth the theory that men who look at porn a lot develop an attitude that objectifies all women. It leads to judging and being unhappy with their own relationships, because real women aren’t the fantasy. The fantasy is the perfectly shaped woman (usually airbrushed) who is, of course, thrilled that the balding forty-year-old with the giant beer gut wants to have sex with her.
The internet has enabled men who wouldn’t dream of going to the dirty book store or the sleazy video store to view more and more extreme types of porn in their own homes. So, I think more and more (usually men) are viewing porn. The porn spam seems to have calmed down a bit, but my 85-year-old father wasn’t quite sure what to do with pictures of naked women arriving unsolicited in his email.
I’m glad to see more woman-centered, sex-positive porn being done, and I think it’s fine for people to view such in the privacy of their own homes. I’m distressed though, that much of the more popular porn is very anti-woman, violent, and very disturbing. I also don’t like it at all that soft porn is used to market everything.
I have two boys. Teaching them about what real women are like is not easy, and keeping them from running across porn is also difficult.
OK, that rambled. It’s an interesting and difficult topic, and I hope we’ll discuss it some more!
I came out as gay at age 20, and a few years later started watching a few gay porn flicks once in a while.
I still do, from time to time. But once out of curiosity I watched a couple of straight porn flicks and I did note how the women seemed to have little sexual or erotic power of their own.
Somehow there’s more a sense of free will and power and choice implicit in gay porn – I guess just because all participants are men. Even when some of the participants are being treated in a debasing or nasty way, there’s an understanding that this particular guy chooses to engage in such a scene. It felt different when I saw the straight porn… it felt more like the women are routinely treated that way simply because they are women, not because they want to be treated that way.
I don’t know what to do about Porn although as pointed out above that is very different from Erotica.
I can tell you what I think about it personally…they are pretty dam boring and stupid-hey if you’ve seen a 100 you’ve seen em all. And as far as I’m concerned porno is not only-almost always-demeaning to women but it makes men seem incredibly dumb to be able to be lead around so easily by thinking they are going to get to screw someone….so in a certain odd aspect the women have the upper hand so to speak.
Then you have porno’s that promote incredibly dangerous practices such as the infamous coke bottle scene in Deep Throat..every time I think of that I get ill. The gay porno’s are no different as they had someone demeaning or dominating the other.
One thing I found to be kinda depressing was the fact that men I knew tried to point out to how much the women were enjoying themselves and believing these women would actually be doing this without getting paid cause they were just having so much fun…now there’s some serious delusions going on there, but why?
I’m venturing a guess here that’s purely based on my own experience and has no scientific value whatsofuckenever…and that’s the more a guy watches porno’s(not erotica)the less and less he will learn about women and sex.
I first want to emphasise that I don’t believe porn is a positive influence on our society (and I’m going to write a separate post about that). But I do actually think that most of the women in porn (at least that which I’ve seen) actually do enjoy themselves. That doesn’t mean they would still do it without being paid, but I think they are not just “faking it” or whatever, by and large.
And I think that both genders get misapprehension about sex because of porn, and–life imitating art–neither gender, in the younger generation, even knows they’ve taken a wrong turn.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
I have no idea whether that could be true or not..but I was thinking back to women I know who worked in the cat houses(brothels) in Nevada and invariably they talked about how disgusting their jobs were. Yet several men I knew that went to the houses seemed to think these women really really liked them and they only had to pay them cause it was policy of the house. ….different situations I agree but that is what I was thinking when I wrote what I did…Those guys were delusional for sure.
But I do actually think that most of the women in porn (at least that which I’ve seen) actually do enjoy themselves. That doesn’t mean they would still do it without being paid, but I think they are not just “faking it” or whatever, by and large.
This made me laugh so hard, I nearly spit my tea all over the keypad. Bless your heart. Well, I don’t know. Perhaps, somehow, you magically honed in on some very unusual stuff.
is not demeaning to women…there are no women in it.
I think that’s something that needs to be brought into this…we talk about pornography too broadly. When I hear, “pornography exploits women” I know they’re not talking about the stuff I watch. It may seem a minor point, but I think it highlights the issue of painting too broadly.
I’ll be honest, some of the comments above bug me a little. It hasn’t destroyed my sex life or my imagination. Sometimes I toss in a porn because I’m single, with no prospects at the moment, and a little visual stimulation helps things out a bit (self-love is better than no love). Sometimes I watch it to make fun of it. Sometimes I watch it with a sexual partner–to make fun of it or for visual stimulation during “breaks in the action”…or it ends up getting ignored. Again, it’s about painting too broadly…before making sweeping statements about people who use it, we might want to start by asking how and why people use it.
I’m with you on this, MAJeff. I agree that it’s less the existence of porn than, for my money, that very little mainstream porn is out there trying to get women turned on, and a heavy stigma still attached to women who watch porn instead of read it. Considering the wide availability of written “erotica” (sorry to quotey-mark it, but every discussion I’ve had of erotica vs. porn for women has been convincing that women aren’t always into context) and the number of fangirls who not only write smut, but make smutty visual manips…I think simply saying that porn is exploitative or that women would rather read than watch their porn is missing the point.
Largely, I don’t have much use for visual porn. Why? Cuz the porn I’ve seen with women just focuses on things I don’t find erotic and awaken my, “oh, she needs a better waxer” meter. That’s largely why it doesn’t grab me. I’m not going to make a statement on “and that proves it’s exploitative” or vice versa. It’s that as an industry, commercial porn fails for me and I think a lot of women because it rarely does what I want my sexual aids to do. (My kingdom for lesbian porn that didn’t make me go, “Oh, honey, no. You’re pretty, and I appreciate that as a girl who likes ’em femmey, but I’d prefer you were less pretty and more into it. Kthanxbye.”)
And I do think it’s…problematic…to call that failure of porn solely a problem of exploitation and subjugation. It’s just as much a social and market failure — a failure of society, including many women, to believe that there can be porn that works for women or that there can be non-stigmatized porn [ie, a belief that the porn industry can be reformed to help prevent exploitation and corruption, because let’s face it. Lots of people of any gender believe that if you fuck for money, there’s some kind of exploitation involved], and a failure for the market who doesn’t look at all the smutty women-written stories all over the Internet and think, “hmm, we could hire these women to mastermind and staff Erotica for Babes, Inc, and make 50 bajillion dollars!”
I go back and forth on the porn question. On an intellectual level, I can understand and appreciate the objections some people have to porn. It can be, and often is, sexist and degrading. At the same time, I have to admit that as a heterosexual man, I like seeing nude women having sex. So it’s a fine line; at what point have I gone from exploring in a healthy manner my own sexuality to a kind of self-indulgent explotativeness? I honestly don’t know.
I think one of the problems with porn is, as others have pointed out, that it can reinforce our limited notions of each others’ sexuality. It’s pretty clear in the case of female sexuality, but if I may play advocatus diaboli, it also seems to do the same for male sexuality. It’s true I like seeing nude women, but that doesn’t mean that’s all I want to see. I also like porn/erotica that develops a scenario or a fantasy much better than that which just cuts to the sex. I suspect many men feel the same way.
But what we’re seeing hints of, even among more progressive women, a notion of male sexuality that is “simple”, and therefore by implication immature and less interesting. I’ve noticed this is almost always contrasted with a notion of female sexuality that is “complex”, and therefore by implication more interesting. The next conclusion that is drawn from that juxtaposition is that it’s men who need to learn more about women’s sexuality (something I don’t necessarily dispute, mind you), but that there’s not much to learn about men’s sexuality.
It should be freely available to adults who want to view it. Anybody who wants to make it and is of legal age should be able to. States and communities should not be able to make blanket exclusions, no matter how many people vote to make it so.
Children should not have access to it. Nobody should be forced to watch it or to make it, even by subtle pressure or repeated nagging. If it doesn’t float your boat, that’s fine by me. It floats mine at least some of the time, and it bothers me that people seem to think that should equate to a value judgment against me.
Because, like Jeff, the porn I watch doesn’t have women in it. At all. And the overwhelming majority of it that I’m buying and/or watching now is amateur stuff, mostly made by the people in it themselves and not by some professional company who’s only interested in cranking out Volume 874 in a never-ending series of cookie-cutter videos where the actors all look the same, the soundtrack is the same, and the sex follows the same formulaic pattern.
Yes the basic acts never change. But that’s not what I watch porn to see. I enjoy watching other people enjoying themselves, and I like to see how they do things that’s different from the way I do them (or would do them). I enjoy (and, frankly, envy at least a little) the refreshing lack of self-consciousness displayed by these young guys who are out and proud and don’t care in the slightest that hundreds or thousands of guys are watching them get nekkid and get it on. I only wish I’d had that security in my sexual orientation when I was their age.
Jeff is right. If we’re going to talk about pornography, we’re going to have to move away from treating it solely from a feminist perspective and solely from the perspective of heterosexual porn. Hetero stuff used to be most of what’s out there. Not so much, anymore. The gay market is doing quite well on its own, and the internet has exponentially increased the number of people producing and retailing it, to the point that studios have almost become irrelevant. Sure, nobody seems to be able to find hotties in eastern Europe the way Bel Ami does, but if you look hard enough, you can find amateur stuff with guys just as cute, and at half the price of a Bel Ami video. Same thing with Falcon (does anybody really care that a model is a “Falcon exclusive” anymore?). Same thing with any company.
While I’m on the subject, exactly what is it with G. Dumbya and porn stars? I’d have thought Clinton would be the more likely president to attract ’em, but so far W has had dinner with one (a female hetero porn star) and gotten a lame-ass painting from another (a male former gay porn star, several of whose videos I own).
Tell me more about these “Dumbya” (love that!) connections. How did they come about?
Alan
Maverick Leftist
But you can read the Jeff Griggs/Tony Sinatra story here (originally in The Advocate, May 27, 2003–though I think I saw it online before it hit print). Former California gubernatorial candidate and porn star (is she still working? Hellifino!) Mary Carey was expected to be at the annual President’s Dinner, a GOoPer fundraising shindig this month. She’s probably more in it for the politics.
There is little diversity shown (at least in what I’ve seen) in the way sexual acts proceed. Some nasty talk, quick disrobing, exchange of fellatio and cunnilingus, intercourse in various positions, and finally the “money shot”.
This certainly isn’t the way I like to have sex. If porn were shot with higher production values, showed more passion (kissing, etc.) and–especially–didn’t include that “money shot” nonsense, I’d be much more content with it and in fact would probably buy some. Though there’d be some other stuff I’d want out of there:
–Fake boobs (blech)
–Ratty, “fried” bleached hair
–Shaved pubic regions on women (or sometimes they preserve that stupid little tuft)
–An excess of tattoos and piercings
–Ridiculously large penises
–Circumcised penises (okay, that’s a personal thing I guess: I can’t relate with it, and it makes me cringe to see–but don’t any Europeans agree with me, at least?)
I read a really interesting article in the NY Times a year or two ago about how young people–male and female–have learned about sexuality through porn, so the sex in pornos isn’t as “unrealistic” as it used to be, thanks to the whole life-imitates-art thing. That is probably the most profoundly sad thing to me, that–as one expert put it–the most sexually depraved 0.01% of the population is taken as a model of “how to act” by millions of teens and twentysomethings. And once this reaches a “critical mass”, it becomes self-fulfilling: it is how to act, even if you’ve never seen a porno, if you don’t want to seem sexually “weird” to your partners.
I don’t believe there should be any kind of legislative action a la McKinnon and Dworkin, but I absolutely will denounce its effects on youth, and I’m sorry if anyone takes it personally.
Alan
Maverick Leftist
ANTISEMITE!!!
(just kidding )
I think what you say may well be true of mainstream major marketer porn, whether hetero or homo in orientation. But if you’re looking for variety, try some amateur stuff. You’ll see real people having real sex (including the unexpected, like coming too quickly–or not at all). At least in the gay world, the amount of foreplay you get to see seems to vary from producer to producer. Some like to show the entire encounter, from first meeting to post-coital cuddling. Others like to cut out the “extraneous” stuff and start right with the nasty, ending as soon as everybody’s gotten off.
And I’d have to disagree with you about shaving (though I could care less what women do with theirs, since I’m not in the least bit interested in looking). I think guys with shaved crotches look hot. Tats and piercings I agree are becoming too prevalent–but that’s not just in porn, that’s in real life. Though there again, it depends. Some tats look good on some guys, and ditto for piercings. Doesn’t mean I want to look at somebody with no skin of his own still showing, or with enough metal sticking out of his body to start his own mining concern.
Since I happen to like uncut guys, I’ll happily second your motion to see more of ’em. Somehow, though, I doubt we’re going to find ourselves being listened to.
A lot of discussion about porn is based on two misconceptions.
(1)Porn bad, erotica either less so or good
(2)Porn-what men watch; erotica-what women read
Neither is true. There is bad erotica and badly written. But well-written erotica, whether read by men or women, is very good. Although there much fewer examples, there is some good porn, appreciated by both men and women. Porn suffers from a crappy aesthetic. But there are also crappy books and movies–and not just a result of a small budget.
The aesthetic of porn and erotica exists within a culture that has more serious problems. Bowdlerized science books in public schools set off reproduction and sexuality as that “special” stuff that you can’t know anything about until you are….when? When you and another person discover it all over again in middle school or high school or college. And in between curiosity and discovery, there is commercial America – nudge, nudge, wink, wink. And almost everyone feels insignificant because the role models are made up (even the men), carefully lit and posed, and heavily Photoshopped. Even the supermodels don’t look like that. It is not fantasy. It is illusion, specially crafted illusion to sell, sell, sell.
So what to do? Focus on the broader culture, teach people how to deconstruct advertising. Provide a cultural matrix of honesty about bodies, art, history, and science that reintegrates sex into normal life. Without censorship, take the unconscious emotional hook out of the way people look at advertising.
Insist on labor standards and health standards in the sex industry, including the porn industry.
So what about the children? Isn’t this the issue for most all parents, whether they like porn and erotica or not? What happens when little Johnny pops that hardcore DVD into player when Mom and Dad are away? How do they prevent it or how do they respond to it? Is this a parental decision that only makes sense in the particular context? Or are there some general insights based on experience? Surely there are some after the 40 years of the so-called “sexual revolution”.
And what is the limit? What is socially intolerable? Non-consensual sex is not yet socially intolerable enough but ought to be. So what else and on what basis? Traditional morality? Religious belief? Rationally arrived at principles? Scientific evidence? Personal philosophy?
The best we can do for future generations is to provide a culture in which these questions can be honestly raised. And the best way to do that is to continue this conversation.
A lot of the hostility to porn on this thread seems to rest on a personal ‘yuck’ factor. That’s just not a legitimate reason to oppose porn, anymore than it is a reason to oppose gay sex. And some of the supposed evil effects of porn seem like the same sort of post hoc justifications that that you get from the opponents of homosexuality.
Another disturbing trope that I sometimes see, including in this thread, is the implication that any sort of pressure by one partner on the other to engage in a different sexual practice is illegitimate. Now, I may be misunderstanding what is meant by ‘pressure’ but if that includes simply saying ‘you know I’d really love to… whatever’ then avoiding such ‘pressure’ seems like a recipe for an unhappy relationship. It would seem to me that everybody, man or woman, gay or straight, wants to make the person they love happy and expects the reverse. For that to happen both sides need to feel free to express their desires and fantasies without fear of their partner getting angry. One of the things that makes sex within a relationship so much fun is that in addition to ones own pleasure there’s the equal satisfaction pleasing the person you love. As a result you frequently end up enjoying things you otherwise wouldn’t. Or you’re not really into something but you’ll do it occasionally to make your partner happy. And sometimes it’ll be something that you absolutely can’t stand the idea of so you just politely say sorry, but I won’t do that. To give an example – I don’t think I’d be willing to have sex with another man no matter how much a girlfriend wanted me to. But I certainly wouldn’t get mad at her for fantasizing about or suggesting the idea.
If you’re really unlucky it’ll turn out that you and your partner aren’t sexually compatible. That something which is essential to one partner’s happiness is absolutely unacceptable to the other. But even then it’s better to know sooner than later. And it doesn’t mean that you or your partner are bad people, just that you have very different desires.
A lot of the hostility to porn on this thread seems to rest on a personal ‘yuck’ factor.
A ‘yuck’ factor?
I wish that it were only that.
I am concerned, as others are, about how the proliferation of porn in our society seems to contribute to the general dismissal of women and their issues and values at this time.
Few people on this thread wish to legislate porn away. You misunderstand. Unfortunately, the religious wingnuttery do, and women’s rights to privacy, abortion and livelihood as well. And yet, from what I hear, these people thrive on buying and using electric dildos and getting private abortions for their daughters, too.
One other thing you mentioned. No one should be forced to do a sexual act against their inclination or will, whether male or female. Suggesting that “if you love me, you’ll do this” is the most effective love killer imaginable, in my view. If you are sexually compatible except for one thing that s/he won’t do, or do regularly, or is uncomfortable with, then to me, if you force her, then that is a form of rape. If that tends to bug you, then that’s like Rappacini’s daughter: trying to remove a ‘disfigurement’ that will make her more beautiful, only to kill her in the process.
Just my two cents.
If you’re saying verbally pressuring someone into doing something they don’t want then that old statement about most men being rapists or at least attempted rapists is true. Only problem is that by those criteria women on man rape is a seriously underestimated problem – most straight men I know, including myself, have been pressured into sex against their will by women. Not a pleasant memory. In my opinion, however, acting like an asshole is not quite the same thing as rape.
As for the rest, I made it quite clear in my original post that nobody should be emotionally blackmailed into doing something they absolutely don’t want – and that includes the ‘if you love me’ (been the target of it myself – it does screw up a relationship) But rather I simply said that people should be open with each other about their desires and that the wishes of your partner should be an important consideration.
If that one thing is something not essential to your happiness then you’re ok. But if it is, the relationship is doomed to failure. I am pretty sure I could never date a serious dom or sub. And I know from unpleasant experience that I can’t date someone who needs to be in an open relationship.
As for the negative effects of porn on society – I don’t see them. Women’s concerns were dismissed to a far greater extent in the past when porn wasn’t as widely available. As for sexual hypocrisy – always been around.
Apparently you didn’t read me correctly.
I said no one should force women or men into performing a sexual act against their will or inclination. Didn’t you read that?
And while I think that it is possible for women to force men to have sex with them, I don’t think that such incidents occur with as much frequency as man on woman rape.
I also know that certain men get a bee in their bonnets about their women not coming up to their standard of perfection if they don’t do thus and so. They refuse to let it alone. It usually gives these men the reason to cheat when there is absolutely nothing else wrong. Therapy may not help either. That’s when the relationship is doomed to failure.
to be fair, blksista, I think you’ve mis-read MarekNYC’s comments (some of them anyhow). I believe he’s advocating for the Dan Savage-penned Good, Giving, and Game theory of sexual relationships, where no one is forced to do anything against their will, but will entertain the idea of doing something against their inclination if their partner would be into it.
Thus, although I would not be inclined to dress up like chef and spank my girlfriend with a spatula, I would do it if she asked me, and would enjoy it insofar as she had a good time.
However, if I found that for whatever reason I could not fulfill this fantasy (let’s say I have a cooking phobia), and she cannot be happy without a partner willing to perform such an act, than the relationship is doomed.
I would also note that the “GGG” theory has nothing explicitly connecting it to pornography. They should be two different conversations.
I haven’t seen any on this thread. What I have seen is a lot of openess about real experience that you have chosen to “dismiss” as invalid.
To get one thing out of the way:
the porn I am referring to is nearly all ‘straight porn’, not gay male porn.
I have problems with porn within the context of western society, and even greater ones in the broader global context. I’m going to use one recent specific example to illustrate a lot of what I’m talking about.
Taking on western societies first, as someone wrote above porn, in the acts it depicts, the way it is produced and sold, reinforces and normalises all the dominant patriarchal messages this society delivers to men and women about how they should relate and behave towards one another. Out of this, while there is no doubt that men lose too (tip o’ the hat to Linnaes’ comment about “simple” male sexuality), women lose far more.
There are major problems with the industry – anyone recall the story of 18yo Roxanne,new to California and fresh signed up to the porn industry, who despite speaking up and saying she didn’t want to perform anal sex, was infected with HIV from being coerced into performing a “double anal”? The bit I’d like to highlight is not the actually very rare occurrence of HIV infection as far as we know, but the fact that she was “presuaded” at 18 years old, to perform not even ‘normal’ anal sex, but to receive 2 penises at once. I’d also like to highlight how acts like “double anal” are like fashion trends in the porn industry – gotta keep looking for something to keep the punters buying. I have no objection to anyone finding out they enjoy double anal penetration, but I do question whether the relentless fetishising of such acts as a perpetual quest for more revenue by the porn industry is the only way one could find this out, and certainly question whether it’s the best.
Another thing revealed by Roxanne’s case was that unprotected sex remains the absolute in the porn industry, as safe sex simply doesn’t “sell”, and the one intrepid porn producer who tried to make it was actively undermined by his colleagues, and forced to return to the good ol’ days.
Porn as an industry uses increasingly younger women, and as the case of Roxanne shows, a contract and a highly regulated industry like the Californian one is no protection from either coercion or in the worst instance, life-threatening disease.
On to pornographic imagery
When Roxanne got HIV, it sparked some media interest, and how she’d got infected sparked several excellent articles from women heavily involved in (and proud proponents of) the porn industry. They noted such things as an increase in violence against women being depicted in porn – some of the ‘everyday’ examples they highlighted was the language used (bitch, whore etc.), women being slapped, hit, dragged by the hair, thrown, pushed around and ‘passed’ between two men.
I wish now I’d saved those articles, but coming from prominent pro-porn women, some who still act in porn, it was more than a little shocking. I don’t really care if there is good porn out there, and I know there is – it really doesn’t help much with the 90% sea of scum that it floats around in, in which denigrating and objectifying women is the norm. I’m afraid I would glady sacrifice the good 10% to be rid of the utterly dominant 90%, which is what then leaches down into advertising, tv shows etc. It is most certainly not the good 10% which informs the commercial exploitation of sex, and hence the commercial exploitation of women.
On a personal note, as a lesbian I am so utterly, totally sick of seeing my love, my sexuality used as the shallowest possible titillation for heterosexuals. Until lesbians have equal rights and are totally accepted as normal by society, my visceral reaction is “get your own fucking fantasies”.
As someone who has lived in Europe and been able to flick over the late-night tv and watch porn, or seen the countless freely available porn magazines on sale at stalls, the blatant porn theatres – I’ve got to say this is one area they have it just as wrong as anywhere else.
The evidence for how wrong we are all getting it is the persistent, consistent levels of domestic and other violence against women, the rapes every few minutes, the sexual harrassment etc etc. Europe’s figures are better than the USA and Australia, but they hardly make a case for porn, as a vehicle for reinforcing & normalising denigration and violence against women, being ok.
Finally, I’d like to throw this conversation global, again with a specific example. When word started to filter out that American soldiers may have raped Iraqi women, of Abu Ghraib, in fact with the very launching of the war, Eastern European porn houses, mostly completely unregulated, went into overdrive, producing videos and images of “rape fantasises”, ie showing ‘soldiers’ raping ‘Iraqi women’.
Can we even being to imagine what it would feel like to be an Iraqi woman who somehow saw those images? Who saw her terror and fear turned into not only a subject for titillation and enjoyment, but portrated as ok?
Simultaneously, other porn houses overseas started taking real images from the war and combining them with fictional sequences to create snuff movies.
On that basis alone, I question whether western people have a right to sit in their bubbles, seriously discussing how porn helps them further explore and support their sexual needs, when their legitimising of the industry then forms the basis for promulgating such filth. (Yes, I know, a loaded word when talking about porn, but tell me what else to call the things I’ve described above in relation to the Iraq war).
Snuff movies and highly violent porn, paedophilia, are significant but largely undiscussed elements of the porn industry, and all-too frequently people don’t want to talk about the connections between “ordinary” porn and the underbelly of the industry. Yet the connections are there in the baldest sense, ie it is the existence and acceptablility of selling ‘normal’ porn which makes the underbelly possible.
The equipment, studios, distribution channels and infrastructure used to make & sell ‘normal’ commercial porn is exactly the same as that used to make and sell ‘other’ porn, except that it may well feature women and children who have been kidnapped and enslaved, who are then used to make porn, in addition to act as prostitutes. Several thousand women a year are sold into the USA alone as sex slaves; the global industry counts for millions.
Or heck,it might just feature desparately impoverished young women and children who are either sold or sell themselves into the industry because comparatively, the money is so good.
So I’ll end by asking is there really that much difference between them and Roxanne? Is the whole industry and your and my sexual needs worth Iraqi women seeing “rape fantasies” that detail their worst horror?
For me, the answer is no.
I won’t try to amswer them all. But I did want to say that one of the objections I have to the pie add is that it is one of those that portray fake lesbian sex for the titilation of men.
I am not sure how to express why this is distasteful, but it bothers me.
The other thing I think of is how stupid it seems to me. As a heterosexual woman, if I were ever to act on sexual attraction to another woman, it would not be because she was dressed like Ginger or MaryAnne and playing pie fight.
ObThoughtfulRemark:
America is no melting pot. Notions of acceptable public sexual behavior and practice are light-years different, as I posted in another diary, from the clamped-arms Riverdancing Irish to the Blacks who gave us the rhythm and moves of rock & roll to various English/Celtic puritan types to Latinos and their Mardis Gras.
I think the only sane idea is to let the Christian fundamentalists decide this issue.
I haven’t seen the rough and crude stuff, however.
Here’s my question: If women could produce their own erotica and pornography, what would it look like?
I like the idea of animation, myself. The stuff that’s out there is less than stimulating. Maybe women could do better. A couple of scenarios come to mind….
It would look like “An Officer and a Gentleman” or some other romantic movie, that simply showed a lot more than they did. It would have a plot, and character development, and tenderness, and respect. It would not have the man continually ejaculating on the woman’s face. Must every scene end that way?
Oh, my, no!! That’s the opposite of what I envision.
Men do seem to like that part though. <!!!>
Hi, Dixie!
Interestingly enough, I’ve noticed that men enjoy watching that particular scene, and that women enjoy watching whatever passes for a woman’s pleasure–but not exclusively, and not in the circumscribed ways protrayed in porn.
I’m also interested in the ways that women fixate on breasts: their own or someone else’s. Younger women dress in a way that highlights their breasts. In addition, fiction that features heaving breasts on the cover sells well. I’m not well read on the topic. I’m just doing a stream of consciousness thing here.
Do the men you know really like that “money shot” stuff? I hate it, and I had thought (hoped) that it was some mass delusion on the porn makers’ part that kept it in there, like “we’ve got to prove he really came” or whatever.
Anyway, I don’t know: maybe I’m in a minority, but it’s definitely not all men that like that shot!
Alan
Maverick Leftist
But, that’s the only part I like. In all seriousness, I have wondered about this. It’s the same undercurrent of homoeroticism so brilliantly satirized in “Repo Man.” In discussing John Wayne’s coming to the door in a dress, the following freudian slip from hell: “That don’t mean he was a fag.” “Yeah, we all like to watch our buddies fuck.” I think it’s more of the “cult of the penis” referred to upthread.
Here are two links to get you started.
http://www.cleansheets.com
http://www.goodvibes.com — mostly a store, but also has great articles and links, and is geared to a female audience.
No, I have nothing to do with either of these sites. I just read them.
But this is what really caught my eye:
I think that making certain aspects of hip-hop mores–hardness, hypermasculinity, one-sided sexual pleasure–accessible to the mainstream has made things worse as well.
And the first person I thought of? Nelly’s “Tip Drill” video–the one where he runs a credit card b/w a woman’s behind as she wriggles w/ apparent delight.
Never in my life have I wanted to the beat the shit out of somebody as I did Nelly when I caught a glance of that video. I think he’s a cultural cancer–what with his so-called “Pimp” juice and scholarship.
Of course, he’ll make sure he has time to deliver vegetarian meals for the fair Ashanti. No Madonna/Whore complex here.
The words we speak…lives we lead…but I guess disgusting, 21st century minstrel acting, stereotypical and yes misogynist crap is fine–he’s just cashing in. And hey…he’s only treating b—— that way, not real sistas.
Lord help all of us.
for your remarks: yep, yep, yep.
See I think that gangsta hip-hop fits in square with what the culturemongers wanted to produce. Remember that in the beginning, hip-hop rap talkeda about politics as well as partying. And while I agree with Joan Morgan that hip-hop is a way for black males to step up as MEN, there are certainly a few (metaphorically and then really) ‘dead’ bodies of black girls and women that are on that path towards supposed manhood.
Of course, blues and jazz had their beginnings in mud puddles and abattoirs, too. But they didn’t have live and in color music videos and they never EVER went that far. The dark side of this life was always hinted at and auggested; it never was way out there like it is today.
Don’t mention it. :<D Big fan of your comments and opinions, BTW.<p>
Hip Hop has completely sold out. And too many people are just TOO ignorant about the span and reach of hip hop. If I was from another planet…or hell, from another country…and I saw BET, I’d believe all the racist shit about us too.
I was never a hip hop head, but once upon a time, it was really about something. It was political, it was urgent, it was relevant. And OMG…the short-lived merge of jazz/bebop and hip hop–or just stuff that was bawdy and fun. I’m really channeling Diggable Planets and Digital Underground (I love “Do Watcha Like” — “…just grab him in the biscuits!”) and mourn their departure from the scene. Sure, there was bravado. Sure there was sex. But sometime after 1993 it was all about 40s and blunts…and it quickly degenerated from there.
Even the few women who “represent” did us no good–we went from Salt n Pepa, Queen Latifah and MC Lyte to L’il Kim, Foxxy Brown and Trina–women who undoubtedly had skills (OK, except for Trina), but believed they were using their sexuality for their own empowerment, when it was still just for men’s pleasure. L’il Kim, after all, was reportedly battered by the Notorious B.I.G., who was still married to Faith Evans, though estranged.
Of course the only one who escaped that and made money and achieved fame was Missy Elliot, but b/w the rumors of her being a lesbian and the fact that she was curvier than the rest may have had something to do with it.
And speaking of Missy, isn’t it odd that her protege, Tweet, got lots of talk for her first big hit (I forget the song) with the VERY strong masturbation implication. Apparently, some brothas thought she was nasty (I heard a radio co-host here in the DC area say just that) though they liked the beat.
Oh really? It was quickly pointed out that no one was taking on Ja Rule and his “I keep ’em drugged up off that ecstasy.” The whole damn song is foul, of course.
Funny that.
Right. My kids (boys) are 11 and 15. They think Nelly is cool because they don’t listen to the version “with the dirty words.” I’m the stepparent, and MTV doesn’t go on in this house. I suppose they see it at their Mom’s and friends though.
I really don’t like the glorification of “pimp” culture. It makes me angry, and it makes me angrier when young women try to be cool by thinking of themselves as “hos.” I really don’t have much of a sense of humor about it.
I can’t believe the glorification of so-called pimp culture. It makes me want to puke. My parents did not protest for this shit. Nelly and the whole lot of them are just selling kids cultural crack.
We don’t have our own (just cats for now) but we do have nieces ages 10 & 8 (I absolutly love these girls. They really are amazing) that we are alternately excited about and worried about. Watching them grow has been an amazing experience, but in a few short years, they’ll be viewed very differently. And when the hormones kick in, the pressure to worry about boys instead of learning and community and the larger world around them only grows.
What really chafes my backside is that these fools try to act like Hattie McDaniel and claim they don’t have a choice, that “positive” stuff won’t sell. Bullshit. They are too damn lazy, and like any good corporate shill, will say or do anything for a dollar.
and obviously you are not comfortable with your sexuality. {/sarcasm}
But Love Actually?
Swoon. I cry every time. The trailer for the new Pride & Prejudice, playing in theatres — uses the Love Actually theme music — and it just reduces me to TEARS. Happy tears. Girly, chick-flicky tears.
Porn? Nope. Don’t care for it. Don’t care ABOUT it, either.
Give me a romantic comedy and I’m primed. My husband, genius that he is, picked up on that on our first date: Shakespeare In Love. Needless to say, he doesn’t argue when I suggest a romantic comedy.
“I’m getting LAID tonight!” (a la Inigo Montoya)
For some reason, this issue has been in the back of my mind recently and you capture so many similar issues which have arisen in my own life experiences. Excellent diary and exploration.
Not fond of porn myself, though I do think Euro porn is much more interesting (from a woman’s perspective) than the American junk. Seems to actually have a plot.
The issue over at Kos perhaps made this come to the forefront. Seems so many men are quick to rise and quick to shoot off without taking the time to listen. I have run across so many recent studies on females and their sexuality. Studies by anthropologists and biologists ask if perhaps that the females “were the ones who hedged their bets and slept with more than one male?” And, the study of the female orgasm and difference in time variations there for the sexes. It seems orgasm may be a tool for mate selection for biological advantage. Something I have always known -the man with the slow hand is my favorite lover.
“If a man is considered powerful enough, strong enough, or thoughtful enough in bed or in the cave, then he’s likely to hang around as a long-term partner and be a better bet for bringing up children.”
First of all, I don’t see any difference between porn and erotica–it’s all just shades of grey.
Second, I think if there is one area in which the feminist movement has really stumbled it is the sex industry. There’s a lot of philosophical discussions about the pros and cons of “porn,” which ignore the fact that sex = work and a paycheck for many many women.
What I see when I look at porn (which I don’t own, but have enjoyed) beyond all the naked bodies are working people. Those women in the pie ad? Working women. And bless their hearts cause there’s nothing that makes me happier than seeing a woman earn some cash.
And while all these lofty debates rage on, there are real work-related issues that feminist could take on to actually make a positive difference in the lives of women who work in the industry.
For instance, did you know that men who make porn films almost never wear condoms? Brittany Andrews, who works in the industry, is the leading propoent of government-mandated, condom regulation in the industry, because, in her words, “these women can’t make good decisions.”
Me personally, I have stated repeatedly that we should work to raise the minimum age of participation in the industry to 21 (I really think 25, but hey, I understand the reality).
Sadly, because it involves the sex lives and sex choices of women, for most Americans, it becomes an all or nothing proposal with extra frothing free of charge (not coincidentally, the porn debates often remind me of the abortion debates). Nobody is interested in nuance, much less treating the members of the industry like they are actual human beings who have made adult choices.
I always drag this one out when guys are telling me how great it is for women to be involved in porn:
If your girlfriend works in the sex film industry, do you bring her home for Thanksgiving dinner and tell the family how proud you are of her? If your daughter decided to become a stripper, would you tell all your friends and invite them to see her show? Would you point your friends to your Mom’s porn site?
I’d like to see a day when sex workers are respected and safe.
So I don’t that anytime soon we’ll see a day when people can proudly declare that they work in the sex industry. But that’s okay, it doesn’t need to be a prestigous job for us to care about working conditions and rights.
Considering the addictive nature of pornography I think it does need to be removed from “public” spaces, but what I deem pornography is not what everybody deems as pornography. What offends me doesn’t offend others and what offends others doesn’t offend me. In my own home and in my own privacy with consenting adults I think, feel, and know that it is my right to view and read and do sexually what I decide is right for Tracy. My husband and I don’t care for pornography since his father has slipped down some slippery slope of porn addiction and just about lost his damn mind and can’t talk about anything but porn in some context even around our children. We have a family saying now, “Sex isn’t a spectator sport!” We are teaching our children that sex is part of intimacy and involves heart, mind, soul, touch, smell, spirit, knowing, loving, cherishing. These are our “family values” and I will move forward in that direction. I don’t have the right though to force my sexuality, beliefs, images, or words on anybody. I have sexual boundaries and by God everybody else around me had better have them too or I am most definately going to be saying something to them about it.
It sounds like your father-in-law is a sexual compulsive. Porn may be his drug of choice, but it’s really a sex addiction. That kind of indiscretion is a serious problem. It can be very scarring to children to have that kind of sexual assertiveness around them. Depending on the severity, it can even be a form of “emotional incest,” at least according to John Bradshaw. I don’t know how old your kids are, but particularly with very young children, because they are in a constant alpha brain-wave, it can be experienced almost like physical abuse. I have adult friends who are very scarred because of that kind of hyper-sexual behavior in fathers, grandfather, uncles, etc.
I’m with you on the age factor with pornography. We’re never going to keep it out of the hands of teenagers, and I’m not sure that’s such a bad thing. But, young children should have the opportunity to be children without that kind of assault on their senses.
How does Europe deal with it? My SO grew up in germany and remembers seeing a billboard (around age 6) of a topless woman with milk fountaining out her breasts to spell out the words of some product or another.
I don’t know about morals or values but I think for the President to meet with a porn performer at a Republican fund raiser, as will be happening tomorrow night, is an awful example to women and girls in this nation. The President of the United States should not be within 5 city blocks of officially entertaining pornographers and their performers. This lends them a disturbing legitimacy, putting aside the obvious question of Republican hypocrisy.
Porn may have arrived, but the industry hardly needs the POTUS to pimp for them as well, wittingly or no.
I’ve posted about this elsewhere, but this diary is getting more, ahem, action…
After the 2004 election, the DNC had a researcher in to do some polling and figure out why people didn’t vote for Kerry. One of the things that came out is that married women are voting Republican. In further exploration, it was apparent that many married women are frustrated with trying to raise their kids in our current culture. While they may not be into censorship for adults, they feel bombarded by porn culture and pimp culture, and unable to keep it away from their kids. They saw Republicans as being against the coarseness of popular culture.
I don’t think Democrats should get into censorship, but I agree that the culture is coarse and it’s difficult to raise kids in this environment. What sort of political initiatives would be appropriate?