The Airport
Crumpled green uniform
Ribbons edged with dirt
Scuffed shoes, stubbled face
Eyes rimmed red with fatigue
I emerge from the bird’s womb
The returning warrior
The family pounces
Hugs, tears
Backslaps, handshakes
Pride overflows
Soldier-son, hero-brother
I stand tall in their eyes
They think me whole
Grateful I am unscraped by war’s steel
I wince at their sympathy
All wounds do not pierce the skin
Control! Control!
I must play my role
With precision
My pain will be theirs
Soon enough
I suppose starting a diary with a poem is not exactly the way to attract the policy wonks’ interest. In the seemingly interminable pie wars that have raged over the past several weeks, one of the central defenses offered has been “Well, it’s HIS site.” Agreed.
So. This is MY diary.
This is the result of several different strands of thought that have been stimulating me over the past week; not sure I can pull them all together here, but I’m going to give it a shot.
The first was the wonderful diary by Meteor Blades here talking about his experience in the civil rights movement in the sixties. The second was an article by Ron Kovic here. For those of you whippersnappers in the audience whose perception of reality does not predate the eighties, Ron is a paraplegic anti-war Vietnam veteran who wrote the book on which Oliver Stone’s movie starring Tom Cruise was based. This article by Kovic brought back a whole slew of memories of my life immediately after I returned from Vietnam. Then, there are the reports and diaries here and here detailing the latest screw-the-veterans moves of the the current administration.
A few reminiscences:
I joined the army in the Spring of 1968, shortly after the Tet offensive (young people, read your history books if you don’t know what I’m talking about). I joined in a spasm of working-class patriotism, coupled with a need/desire/determination to “prove” myself worthy of my ancestors. I mean, both my grandfathers served in WWI, my father and uncles served in WWII; hey, Vietnam was my war; it was a no-brainer.
I came home from Vietnam a changed man, disgusted and disillusioned. My patriotism had been spent like chump change in a penny arcade, wasted on a futile effort in a dirty war where survival was the only measure of success. I soon joined the organization Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW). VVAW was an extraordinary and, at the time, unique organization. Originally formed by six Viet vets who met one another at an anti-war demonstration in 1967, by 1971, it had grown significantly in numbers (the membership list was over twenty-five thousand, but the majority of those joined from a free ad posted in Playboy magazine, and never did anything but respond to the ad; the actual active membership was never greater than a few thousand) and in impact. It started off doing guerilla theatre with Operation RAW (Rapid American Withdrawal), a limited incursion into New Jersey. Vietnam veterans and friends marched through the surburban towns of that state, demonstrating through the theatre what it was like when an American infantry platoon marched through a town in Vietnam.
In 1970, VVAW held the Winter Soldier Investigation. This was in response to the government’s assertion that the atrocities of My Lai (check your history books, kids) were the result of the deviant actions of a small group of low-level soldiers (sound familiar?). Many of you might remember that this investigation surfaced during Kerry’s presidential campaign, bandied about by the Swiftie liars as proof that Kerry had branded American soldiers as war criminals and “baby killers”. Of course, as usual, this is the exact opposite of what really happened. It was the government that had branded individual soldiers as “baby killers”. The central purpose of the WSI was to show that the atrocities that had happened and continued to happen were not the result of the decisions of individual soldiers, but the result of the POLICY decisions made by the government.
In 1971, the year I returned from Vietnam, VVAW held perhaps its most famous anti-war action — Dewey Canyon III — when about one thousand Vietnam veterans came to Washington DC, camped out on the mall for three days, and climaxed their series of anti-war demonstrations by throwing back the medals they had won in Vietnam to protest the war.
My absolute favorite newspaper headline of all time happened during this time. The Nixon administration went into federal court to get an order to remove VVAW from camping on the mall. It went all the way to the Supreme Court, which ruled in Nixon’s favor. The members of VVAW — after debating among themselves through half the night — took a vote, which was extremely close, but the majority voted to stay on the mall. The Park Rangers refused to go in and remove VVAW. The Washington Star had this front page headline the next day: “Vets Overule Supreme Court.”
All this happened before I joined. I was in DC at the time of DCIII (April, 1971), but did not participate. I had been back from Vietnam only a month by then, and I was still decompressing. I joined in the fall of that year, at the college I started to attend. Our VVAW chapter (about thrity-two members) decided that our first action together would be to march in the Veterans Day parade as VVAW. We applied to the parade’s organizers and they rejected our application. We threatned to take them to court, and they seemed to agree to allow us to march. We showed up the night of the parade, and, after additional haggling, they informed us that we could not march in their parade, and if we marched anywhere that night as a group, we would be arrested. Fuck it. We marched; we got arrested. So, the first time in my life that I was ever arrested was for trying to march in my first Veterans day parade back from Vietnam. It was not to be my last.
After that incident, I threw myself into VVAW work. I was soon elected/selected (no one else really wanted the job) as the state coordinator for VVAW, then in the Spring of 1972, I was elected as one of six national coordinators. I dropped out of school, and headed to NYC where the national office for VVAW was located.
1972 was a presidential election year, and, by a quirk of fate I don’t really remember all the details of, both parties’ national political conventions were to be held in Miami Beach. The local VVAW chapters in Florida were doing the bulk of the on-the-ground organizing for the inevitable demonstrations to take place at the conventions, and I was chosen by my fellow national coordinators to head down to Florida to be the national office liason to the local chapters. I went to Gainesville Florida, where the Florida state coordinator, Scott Camil lived and went to school. There were a series of meetings concerning the planning of the demonstrations. Ninety-five percent of the meetings dealt with all the mundane things associated with having large numbers of people in the same place at the same time: what about port-o-sans; do we have parade permits; will the city allow us to sleep in the park; how are we coordinating with other groups planning demonstrations? Etc. After the meetings were over, and we were all starting to relax (let’s not talk about the “means” we used to relax; suffice to say, it was illegal). One of the vets in the room started talking about some of our worst fears, namely, that there would be some kind of a police riot, similar to or worse than what had happened in Chicago in 1968, and started spinning “what if” scenarios.
Now, one of the problems with VVAW was that many other organizations in the anti-war movement tended to see VVAW as the movement’s cops, security, or enforcers, and I’m afraid that we tended to see ourselves that way as well. So, when this roomful of altered-state, mellowed-out Vietnam veterans — most of us having returned from Vietnam within the past two years — are presented with the scenario “What if the cops block off all the causeways to Miami Beach, and then start shooting the demonstrators, what’re we gonna do?”, needless to say, as Vietnam veterans, we came up with an appropriate response to that scenario.
Turns out, the vet posing these questions was an FBI informer (apparently, he had been busted on a drug charge, and they offered him informing as a way to avoid jail). Turns out, there were a number of other informers in the room at that time, the massive infiltration of VVAW by agents and informers having been Nixon’s present to us in return for Dewey Canyon III.
Three months later, during the middle of the Democratic Convention in July, I was indicted along with seven other members of VVAW by a federal grand jury for conspiracy to incite a riot at the Republican Convention, which was yet to happen in August (with conspiracy, you are not charged with actually committing the crime itself, you are charged with PLANNING to commit the crime. In most criminal cases, conspiracy is a secondary charge to the charge for the crime itself, but the Nixon administration found the “conspiracy” charge on its own — even if the “planned” crime had never been committed — to be a convenient tool to use against the anti-war movement).
Just to give some historical perspective, the meeting from which these charges stemmed occurred in April, 1972, the Watergate break-in happened June 17, 1972. The first response from the burglars concerning the motive for the Watergate break-in was that the Democratic Party was cooperating with radical organizations which were planning to disrupt the Republican convention with violence. The grand jury that indicted us was convened on July 1, and the indictments handed down on July 13. I will keep my tin-foil hat on the shelf, but you figure it out.
The case (called the Gainesville 8 case) went to trial in August of the following year. During the trial, a man I had considered one of my best friends surfaced as an FBI informer who proceeded to testify (and lie) against me. After a month-long trial, it took the jury four hours to find us not guilty (we understood from talking to the jurors later that it actually took about an hour, but one of the jurors — a black Vietnam vet — convinced everyone to stick around a little longer and have one more meal on the government).
Geez, this has gone on way longer than I figured. Beware of old farts telling stories. Ok, try to pull it all together.
I was struck by two statements that Kovic makes:
The paraplegics, amputees, burn victims, the blinded and maimed, shocked and stunned, brain damaged and psychologically stressed, now fill our veterans hospitals. Most of them were not even born when I came home wounded to the Bronx V.A. in 1968. The same lifesaving medical-evacuation procedures that kept me alive in Vietnam are bringing home a whole new generation of severely maimed from Iraq.
Post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which afflicted so many of us after Vietnam, is just now beginning to appear among soldiers recently returned from the current war. For some, the agony and suffering, the sleepless nights, anxiety attacks, and awful bouts of insomnia, loneliness, alienation, anger, and rage, will last for decades, if not their whole lives. They will be trapped in a permanent nightmare of that war, of killing another man, a child, watching a friend die … fighting against an enemy that can never be seen, while at any moment someone–a child, a woman, an old man, anyone–might kill you. These traumas return home with us and we carry them, sometimes hidden, for agonizing decades. They deeply impact our daily lives, and the lives of those closest to us.
To kill another human being, to take another life out of this world with one pull of a trigger, is something that never leaves you. It is as if a part of you dies with them. If you choose to keep on living, there may be a healing, and even hope and happiness again–but that scar and memory and sorrow will be with you forever.
Some of these veterans are showing up at homeless shelters around our country, while others have begun to courageously speak out against the senselessness and insanity of this war and the leaders who sent them there. During the 2004 Democratic Convention, returning soldiers formed a group called Iraq Veterans Against the War, just as we marched in Miami in August of 1972 as Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Still others have refused deployment to Iraq, gone to Canada, and begun resisting this immoral and illegal war.
In the diaries about the VA underfunding, I’ve seen a lot of outrage, blame of Republicans, and protestations of how WE support and respect the veterans. I appreciate that, but I’m sorry to say, respect is a whole lot more than a pat on the back, a yellow ribbon decal on the car, a “welcome home”, and a blog post. It’s what people DO that counts.
The sad reality of fighting in a war is that many, if not most of those who survive return home with substantial problems. For some, those problems are physical — traumatic, life-altering wounds that will never heal, that will require ongoing treatment for a lifetime. In Vietnam, the life-saving procedures of getting severely wounded men from the front line to the operating room were perfected, and have been reimplemented in Iraq. Lives are saved, but men (and now women) who would have died on the battlefield in previous wars, are given the “opportunity” to live armless, legless, sightless, brainless lives. Such lives are a blessing, I suppoose, considering the alternative, but they cost money. Who will pay? Sure, we’ll all raise our hands now, and demand proper treatment for the returning wounded, but what about ten or twenty years from now, when the war, hopefully, is a distant, painful memory, and the economy is in the tank (given the Bushco economic policies, that seems a reasonable conclusion), and there is real competition for where the federal dollars will be spent? What will happen then, to the invisible, powerless refuse from the long-forgotten war?
And then there’s the other “problems”: the PTSD, the lost jobs, failed marriages, broken lives. As`they say, all wounds do not pierce the skin. There was a point in the seventies and eighties when twenty percent of the prison population in the US were Vietnam veterans. Respect? It’s my experience that when a vet is percieved to have become a problem, people don’t give a flyin flock about his (or her) service. When Iraqi veterans start becoming a “burden” on the community, I’m afraid the “respect” of their neighbors will disappear, regardless of which political party they belong to.
Every benefit that Vietnam veterans got, we got because we fought for it, on our own, with little help. The men and women in today’s army, by and large, come from lower socio-economic groups. As a rule, in our political system that does the bidding of those with the bucks, such people will be cut out of the pie when the time comes. Are you willing to take the money out of your pocket, and put it in theirs for their service, because that’s what it’s gonna mean? If not, then don’t talk to me about respect.
But Kovic also said this:
I saw firsthand what our government’s terrible policy had wrought. I endured; I survived and understood. The one gift I was given in that war was an awakening. I became a messenger, a living symbol, an example, a man who learned that love and forgiveness are more powerful than hatred, who has learned to embrace all men and women as my brothers and sisters. No one will ever again be my enemy, no matter how hard they try to frighten and intimidate me. No government will ever teach me to hate another human being. I have been given the task of lighting a lantern, ringing a bell, shouting from the highest rooftops, warning the American people and citizens everywhere of the deep immorality and utter wrongness of this approach to solving our problems, pleading for an alternative to this chaos and madness, this insanity and brutality. We must change course.
Kovic speaks for me on this. I am an anti-war warrior because I can’t NOT be.
Peace.
Several of my close friends at the time were passionately active in VVAW. One I’m still close friends with. During those years, among other things, he made sure that Hearts and Minds was showing somewhere in Austin almost every weekend.
When I saw it – by the end of the movie, a man sitting near the front of the theater was sobbing uncontrollably.
A few months ago, I was telling my friend about the incident of the soldier shooting the wounded man in the mosque in Fallujah (he hadn’t heard about it). I looked up to find tears streaming down his face.
The wounds of war – the ones that don’t pierce the skin – never completely heal.
John and Cathy Kniffen?
about this. I was one of Nicholas D’s roommates and John hung out at our house some in the time between y’alls indictment and trial. As a result I have had the lovely experience of finding FBI agents on my doorstep more than once.
I couldn’t believe I was running into another member of the great conspiracy here! Tell me, do fried marbles mean anything to you?
I didn’t know John well, and lost touch with him soon after. I’m sorry about that – he seemed like a very sweet person. For anyone reading this who doesn’t know who leftvet and I are going on about, here’s a link about John Kniffin.
Janet,
i just followed your link to John Kniffin and read it. I’m also in Texas, which is why I suppose I followed the link to begin with. The reason I’m commenting is because im a 4th year cancer survivor and I’ve bumped into 4 maybe 5 former vietnam vets in my unexpected journey who were agent orange disability. Same cancer as me, but totally different origin. My next door neighbor, a vet, is also out on agent orange disability but his cancer is prostate cancer. Yet he is 100% agent orange disability. How common is this?
As an aside, my brother-in-law was a medevac corpsman in vietnam and was active politically a little to the east of you all, in louisiana. He’s ok with it now, he’s fine. Leftvet? I hope you’re ok with it too. Reading your diary is like listening to him. I’m posting to janet’s diary because she posted the link, but I hope you get this too. Great diary.
That state that I was supposedly coordinating for VVAW was Louisiana. Wonder if I ran into your bro-in-law?
Thanks for stopping by.
Yes, indeed!
Our indictment alleged that we were planning to attack the Republican convention with pistols, rifles, machine guns, hand grenades, crossbows, fried marbles and slingshots.
The prosecution never quite got around to explaining — if we were in possession of hand grenades and machine guns — why the hell we were wasting our time with crossbows, fried marbles and slingshots.
For the uninitiated among you, a fried marble is just that. You fry the marbles in a frying pan, then dump them into cold water. Supposedly, the marbles crack all over, but remain intact. You then shoot them with a sling shot and when they hit the ground in front of someon, they shatter.
Funny thing was, the prosecution put an “expert” witness on the stand from the FBI, who was forced to admit that the FBI had done extensive tests, and fried marbles didn’t work.
Oops!
Is available from Netflix, Barnes and Noble and maybe at your video store.
It is one of the most powerful movies I’ve ever seen. Images from it are forever seared into my mind. There is a reason that my friend showed it over and over again. Please make an effort to see it if you haven’t already.
From the Netflix description:
And don’t forget Walter Rostow’s unforgettable appearance. Though what gives the movie its power are the pilot, the soldiers, the Vietnamese father . . . .
Sounds like a powerful movie. I’ve never seen it…and honestly, not sure if I want to.
Up to you guys of course, but I can see that it would be so hard, so hard for you to watch. And you don’t need to – you already know.
I do recommend it for all of us who are not vets, especially for the younger ones among us who didn’t have the experience of living through the Vietnam years. Yes, it is hard to watch, even for those of us who do not carry the memories that veterans – of any war – do. I learned something from that movie, learned it deep in my gut, not just in my head, about war. About those who fight it, those who create it (Westmoreland, Rostow, et al and their current moral pygmy clones), and those in whose home it is fought.
I know that if you are reading this, you are already anti-war, but the movie is still important. I had been anti-war for many years when I first saw it, and had listened to many vets tell their stories, late at night. But still, it changed me.
anti-war people. I think it was Wellington at Waterloo who said something like “the second worst thing to defeat is victory”. Hell, I even pass on hollywood war/propaganda flicks.
I’ve really become a fan of “chick-flicks” though, the Three Weddings and a Funeral genre. 😉
Not much to say but…. thank you. I’ll be reading my history books…
for taking the time to come by.
Funny, just yesterday I called my mom in N. Cal and ended up speaking with her partner for an hour as she wasn’t home. As you know, my experience was in Latin America but his was in Vietnam. We ranted together. He’s PTSD and in VA therapy. I was diagnosed with it in March and still waiting on the VA bureaucracy. Nevertheless, it’s funny how we relate to each other even in ways I suspect my mom can’t, seems to be a bond, not a father-son thing, but more of like two guys who just “get it” without even having to go far into depth about it. Even a generation apart, it’s the same shit. We’re both fucked-up (but not dysfunctional) but we understand each other’s fucked-upness. Sometimes, though I wish it otherwise, it feels good just to know that I am not alone.
I asked him about the news while stating that the war coverage seems to be a stressor for me – him too. We see the kids (I’m 39 but an old fart in terms of military age, just can’t hump a ruck like I used to), we see the kids in the news and we think, “Christ, more people scarred for life.” I look at you guys as the mentor generation, but maybe, and unfortunately, it’s time for me to step into that role as well. Not sure what I can do to help from Germany but I am sure something will occur to me.
Not sure why I’m writing a meaningless rant. I just wanted to say good diary but I kept writing.
peace.
It is exactly one of the main points I was trying to make.
Vets help other vets; it’s always been that way. And you and me and your mother’s partner need to be ready to help the Iraq guys (and gals). I think they’re goinna need it more than we did.
I just reread you poem again and went back to memories of my homecoming. It was a little different. My uniform was crumpled too, and stinky, hell, I stank from the crud and being the the mountains the prior week with no shower and wearing the same uniform conducting strat recon ops. My company redeployed at the same time. I remember waiting for my first wife to pick me up on the loading dock out back of the company area. Nobody showed and after refusing several offers for a rided home, waiting for her, I finally took a taxi. Got home to find the house a mess, the sheets smelled of sex and a note on the lamp saying “I want a divorce”. Talk about a shock, and only after one year of marriage. That was my first failed marriage.
You are unfortunately right, the kids are going to need help. Now female servicemembers. I think of how it will affect their lives, how mothers are going to have a hard time relating to their children. It’s bad enough for fathers, but now mothers.
Interesting how both of you guys were in Russia. I studied there for a year (attended UMich in Russian and Eastern European Studies and studied there 3 semesters). My best friend (and 2nd ex after 8 years) was my host sister at the time. She said that they had no idea of the casualties from Afganistan. Only when word of mouth rumors spread from families losing their kids to “training accidents” did the mothers get together and for a peace group. Sounds eerily familiar to this administration not showing caskets on TV. She also said that she never expected to hear Khandahar on the news again either, kinda freaked her out.
Somethings send me into a rage, like the picture of the little girl in Iraq covered with her parents blood, which may just well become the iconic photo of this war as the one from yours was of the little girl running down the road after the napalm strike. Others make me want to cry, like the one of the soldier cradeling the body of the child that came out recently. But I can’t cry, sometimes it wells up but then it is suppressed…I guess I’m good at that. Like when I wake up in the middle of the night and see the two faces of the 10-year olds with machetes that I almost blew away because I was scared and only God stayed my trigger finger at that moment. That’s when I battle the bottle, an on-going fight with myself. I wasn’t able to become intimate with my 2nd ex until after the divorce. Times like that I feel as if I should give up my academic career and become a national service officer for a vet group.
Don’t know, but rambling like this seems almost therapeutic. Please keep up the diaries, they’re important.
The picture of the little girl just ripped me to shreds too, and of her brother as well. Even though the soldiers were tending his wounds he looked so terrified.
I have been crying a lot the past 3 days, tears of frustration mostly, but also of pain, shame, and horror. Please, JD, (not that you need my permission or anything), feel free to ramble whenever and whereever you need to — I for one, will always be listening.
The bond crosses time…and culture and geography as well.
In 1989, I was one of a group of eight veterans – four American veterans from Vietnam and four Soviet veterans of Afghanistan – who did a speaking tour in Canadian colleges and high schools. The theme was simple – what it was really like to be in combat in a war – and was a response to the whole Rambo mentality that was everywhere.
We were in our 40s, and they were in their early 20s. The similarities between the experiences, both in a military machine stuck in a quagmire, and afterwards as veterans in societies which only wanted to forget, were stunning. Two of the Soviet guys had been active in Afghan Veterans for Peace, and had suffered enormously for speaking out against their war.
We would sit around at night with the obligatory vodka and cognac (Christ, could those guys put it away) and the sessions were pretty powerful. One of them told me as we were saying goodbye at the airport that it was as if we were reading their minds. Sigh…
where I later lived for ten years, was in 1987 as part of a delegation of Vietnam Vets who went there to meet with Soviet Afghanistan vets.
I remember vividly at the airport when we first arrived in Moscow, and were met by the Afghantsi, and we were all kind of milling around. not quite sure of what to do. Then one Afghantsi — with the fire in his eyes that I understood so well — pulled up his shirt ahd said “See that wound? That was made by a round from an American M-16 in Afghanistan.” One of the Vietnam vets with me pulled up his shirt and said, “See that wound? That was made by a round from a Soviet AK-47 in Vietnam.” The two men looked at one another, then fell into each other’s arms and hugged.
Extraordinary..what a great way to set the tone.
In my trips back to Vietnam in 84, I met several former NVA who had been in “my” area during the war. One was pretty uncomfortable with our presence in his province until I gave a toast at a dinner to the fact that our respective poor marksmanship was the sole reason that we were able to sit down and have a meal with each other. Things went fine after that.
I’ll bet we know a lot of the same folks, both in the US and in Moscow…heh..
Bless you for posting this. I hope you will continue your work with veterans groups because there are going to be so many shattered people in need of contact with a peace-minded vet. Even if only through your writing, you are doing a lot of good.
I try.
As I read your poem this morning I found myself standing once again at the main gate at Oakland Army Base in 1975.
Having arrived in early 1974, so naive. I didn’t believe in my government – I hated Nixon and all he stood for but did believe in serving my country. As an MP I served with guys that had done 1 and 2 tours in Vietnam. After 6 months of working the midnight shift on patrols, my eyes had been opened to the horrors we sent our troops into.
Working the main gate, a lot of the West Coast soldiers coming home and mustering out came through Oakland. As a young woman of 18/19 I looked into the eyes of young men only slightly older. I saw their pain and something that couldn’t be described.
Something inside was as crumpled as the uniforms they wore.
Bless you for this diary and the work for the Vets.
I came through Oakland, though a bit before you were there.
I was unbelievable. It was less than seventy-two hours between the time I was in the rice paddies of Vietnam wondering if my next step would be my last, and when I was discharged, and a civilian on the streets of the US of A. Talk about freakin culture shock…
A small portion of the Oakland and San Francisco area were so unfriendly to soldiers even as late as 1975.
Are we doing better with our current vets?
I think so – but they are kept out of the public view. We don’t know who the vets are – unless you talk to them some place or know them personally.
As a public are we making extra efforts to let them know we support them even as we oppose the war?
My heart says no.
Are we doing better with our current vets?
No.
I would have to disagree with the no. We don’t blame the soldiers anymore – than is 180 degrees from 30 years ago.
Still living in the SF Bay Area – and the vets are welcomed so much differently now when we know who they are.
30 years ago soldiers didn’t wear our uniforms off base, no one admitted to being vets, and hostility in conversations about the soldiers was rampant. Now the hostility is towards the war – not the soldiers. I’ve been in bars and restaurants when a soldier came in – the restaurants bought them dinner and people came up to welcome them home. The most vocal of the anti-war people I know have bumper stickers, saying “support the troops – bring them home”.
So I think we’ve changed…the government hasn’t but we as citizens have.
the government hasn’t but we as citizens have.
Yes, it’s different now in that the public generally supports the troops – separates them from the policy-makers that sent them to war. But I wonder how welcomed home GIs feel when they stand in the middle watching both sides scream at each other.
Anti-war: “We honor you as a warrior, but the war is a cluster-f*ck of immense proportions, and all your partners died for oil.”
Pro-war: “Thank you for your service to our country. Didja kill any of those terrorist-insurgent-fundamentalist bastards? Damn, I wish I coulda been there.”
The last time GIs were truly welcomed home in this country was after WWII.
[35 years ago: Yeah, we only wore the uniform in public ’cause we had to – to get military standby on commercial flights; and lost the uniforms when we got discharged].
in the Bay area. You say, “Now the hostility is towards the war – not the soldiers.”
The way I remember the Vietnam years is that we who were opposed to the war felt exactly the same. One reason that we were so passionately against the war was because it was not only immoral and evil for what it was doing to the Vietnamese, but it was killing and maiming our brothers, lovers, friends, husbands.
Of course, at the time, there were those on the left who condemned the soldiers who fought, who believed that the only moral choice was to refuse to go.
But see The Spitting Image. And see leftvet’s comment here.
Lembke’s central thesis is that most (though of course not all) of those against the war were in fact the ones who were most supportive of the returning vets. We were the ones who marched and yelled and protested – because we wanted no other young man to be forced (draft) to go through what they had. We fed them, slept with them, listened to them late at night when their defenses were down and the tears came.
It was the war supporters who abandoned them. When it became clear how wrong their flag-waving, blind support of the war had been, they couldn’t admit to themselves that they had been part of the evil that was that war. They just didn’t want to think about it. Veterans were an unpleasant reminder – better out of sight and out of mind.
And I the usual way of the right-wing, up became down, black became white. Kerry was a coward and Bush was a heroic fighter pilot. The right supported and respected the returning vets, the left spit on them. Bullshit to all of that.
Is it now a matter of the left having learned our lesson about supporting returning veterans and we’ll do better this time? I fear greatly that this is not the case. As I said, there were those, 30 years ago, who condemned all who served for participating, although my experience (yours evidently was different) was that they were in the minority among the left.
After having seen the ranting by some over at dKos when “support our troops” diaries were posted about how Iraq veterans deserve no sympathy because they were not drafted, they chose to serve, I worry that those on the left who condemn veterans will be a larger group, not a smaller one.
I most sincerely hope that I am wrong about this.
I remember setting at a party once and the topic of Vietnam had surfaced, and someone there mentioned that I was a vet. A young lady at the party being sympathetic said to me, “your home, you survived”
My reply was: “sorry, but I’m not yet, I hope someday I will be, when I can forgive, then I’ll be a survivor”
For I know in my mind, heart, and soul, I will never forget, but the forgiving, I’m still working on.
Agent Orange is taken it’s toll on me, for I am the only one left from my group, of 17.
I have buried the rest of the bodies, but their soul still lives, within me.
I attended a welcome home parade a week or so ago for a NG unit returning from Iraq, and it was a time machine that placed me back, only difference was, there was no parade then. But I still remember the looks of hope, hapiness, and releif in those young people’s eyes.
As I stood in the middle of the highway and saluted those people, I knew that their time of healing, and hopefully surviving, had just begun.
Thank you leftvet for your diary, service, and most of all your caring. I salute you, and all the vets on this diary, on this earth, and in the heavens.
the toughest one to forgive…
is yourself.
Hang in there, bro. To the extent that I can be through the internets, I’m with you.
I have forgiven myself, a long time ago, and the ones I fought against, for they were the same as I.
What I have not forgiven, is the powers of the world, the greed, corruption, and the willingness of governments to slaughter, and I cannot write it off to ignorance, just hoping for evolution to catch up, to what we so readily call, civilization ; )
I have spent much time over the years counseling vets, and trying to help them understand, sometimes it helps, sometimes to no avail. The only thing we can really offer is Hope.
Again, many thanks, and we have a long road ahead of us, with the ones now “coming home”
Thank you very much. And the discussions they raise (there was an especially moving diary discussion in the middle of the night several days ago) are incredible.
You inspire an open conversation that overwhelms me.
And opening with a poem a great idea.
I don’t have too many poems in me. Haven’t written one in years.
If I got one and it fits, I’ll toss it in.
Odd places…my aunt and uncle’s 50th wedding anniversary. Large room, glass all around, too many people..gotta smoke. Outside is this kid – maybe he’s cracked 24 – we bs a bit. He’d been in Gulf 1. Army MP, got sent over early to set up the base, and was 400 feet from the blown barracks (the only SCUD that hit something). He got to help pull his partners from the rubble.
So I asked: did you get some time to come down, man? Nah, two weeks TDY in Egypt, shipped home and discharged. No debriefing, counseling, nothing? No. Still trying to get back, but it’s hard. How’s the job? Alright. “Security” for this complex means working nights – it’s quiet. Doesn’t pay for shit, but it’ll do for now.
Don’t know if he’s back yet.
Thank you for this diary. Thank you for all of your diaries, your comments and your presence (and Wayward Wind and infidelpig and JD and all the other vets as well).
I was two years old when you enlisted and this kind of history means so much to me — I have read history books, read everything I can (I remember reading the book “Sideshow” (don’t remember the author) about Cambodia when I was 17 and just being flabbergasted. But the most powerful history lessons comes from those who lived it and I cannot tell you how much it means to me to have you share these parts of your life with us.
My knowledge of and shame about how we treat our vets prompted me to sign up as a volunteer for the local VA in March of ’03 — I couldn’t believe we were going to make a whole new group of vets and I knew I had to do something. Unfortunately, the only place they could have me work was 35 minutes away and I stopped going after a while — I need to get back in touch and see if there’s more that I can do.
I see so many homeless vets on the roadsides here in Austin…and others. In more solvent days, I would always give some money and talk with them, acknowledge them, tell them thank you and I’m sorry…it’s not enough I know. From $$ I went to always having food of some kind int he car and bottles of water….These days, I have nothing to give but the acknowledgement. I have been yelled at, beeped at by other drivers for talking to folks on the side of the road, but dammit, it’s the least I can do, to say I SEE you, and I care….
This has gone on too long — I don’t mean to take up so much space here. The stories about the bonds between soldiers, across generations, and culture are just so powerful, and they bring to mind a song that even after 22 years makes me cry every time I hear it. “Brothers in Arms” by Dire Straits…I will go listen to it now and think of you.
You don’t take up space, you add to it
..so inadequate, so little, but it’s all I have.
When I look at my sons, 2 and 6, I see you, I see all soldiers, and civilians, all people, who are suffering from wars, conflicts and I know the stories I will tell them and the histories that I will not let them forget will not come from books.
I am honoured to share space, even if it is cyberspace, with you.
rather see future artists, actors, writers, scientists, doctors, activists…someone who can contribute to humanity.
I phrased that wrong, I think. What I see in them is the (not-so?) common humanity we all share. The people who walk among us wearing the battle scars, physical and otherwise, were once and are always as innocent, as filled with wonder and as beautiful as the two of them…that’s what I meant. I want them to grow up being a part of that humanity, not aprat from it. Did that make more sense?
“Sideshow” was written by William Shawcross…he also wrote a follow-up “Quality of Mercy”, which focused on the follies in the humanitarian assistance response in Cambodia..very similar to what you read in the news today about the tsunami assistance efforts.
Although it has been years since I read it, I believe that in “Sideshow” there is a passage about Henry Kissinger who, while on a date in DC, took his date to the WH situation room and ordered up a bombing raid in Cambodia, in order to impress the woman. After action reports showed that somewhere in the area of 300 Cambodians died in the raid – just so Henry could get laid. He is one of the most evil bastards that has ever walked this planet. He deserved a war crimes trial, not a Nobel peace prize.
The best book that I have ever read about the Vietnam veteran anti-war movement is “Home to War”, by Gerald Nicosia, and I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to learn about what it took to build that movement, including a long section on leftvet’s experiences.
Wanna be my pr guy?
Heh..do you have any idea how hard it is to not link to the famous photo?? 😉 Who is that raffish young man with the hat?
Seriously, we all have an obligation that will never end to speak out at every opportunity…you, because of the experiences, perhaps more than others and I am ecstatic that you choose to do so…the day we stop putting it out there is the day we have lost…
these days, pal….
Yeah, ain’t it the truth….gravity is a bitch..;-)
You might enjoy the following:
http://tinyurl.com/8n32g
sitting around spinning scenarios. The guy I considered a friend — named Charles Henry (Karl) Becker — was a guy I had befriended in New Orleans when I was going to school down there. Last I heard, he was working as an undercover guy in a department store. Obviously, he got off on that type of work.
I had been with you the day Nixon resigned, just to see the satisfaction on your face.
such a day in the near future.
lawsuit from Nancy Miller, whom I saw at the thirtieth reunion of the G’ville 8 a couple of years ago. Only four of the 8 showed up: two have died of cancer, one had better things to do, and one built himself a boat, and sailed off into the sunset.
Geez, what a slime-bag Lemmer is/was. After what he did to us, to bring a libel lawsuit against someone who wrote about it?
To everyone for the stories, for the history lessons, for the poetry, for the humanity.
Wasn’t old enough to have friends die in Vietnam, but was old enough to see people dying on TV. Now, I’m too old to know those who are dying, but damn it all to hell if I’m not watching the same shit on TV all over again…and I’m not…I’m watching it on places that actually tell the truth…places like this.
I never seem to get through one of your diaries and comments without crying. I think they are tears of grief about the past and my despair that we are, indeed, repeating history.
I was in junior high and early high school during the time the experiences in your diary took place. I was living in a family and community that is right wing in both its religious and political affiliation. Sadly for me, I did not “escape” that mindset until I was in college. Now I look back on those Vietnam days with a heavy saddness because I know I lived with the tension and grief without an awareness of where it came from.
So this is my long way of saying thank-you for your courage in speaking this truth. We have no hope of ever learning from history unless the truth is told to every generation!
What an amazing life you have led! What a gift and testament to living life fully and well and fearlessly upholding the truth! If I do half as well with the strange circumstances of my life I will pass away one day with a contented smile on my old face. I have good days and bad days since losing my Uncle. My father had suffered a severe head injury when I was five and wasn’t much of a father for most of my life, my Uncle was my stable father figure. I remember my first post about how much I hated my house because I had saved all of our tax free pay and extra pays when my husband was in Iraq and then when he came home we bought this great house……and daily I witness the broken and maimed and sit in this house. I have recovered a lot from that guilt and shame but I remember how uncomfortable some people were with me expressing my guilt and shame and they wanted me to be quickly and quietly fixed because what I was going through really disturbed them. I am coming to find out that it is supposed to disturb them, as human beings we are all supposed to live in reality and we can try to run and try to hide but it will eventually find us because we will continue to make stupid decisions that we must face until we embrace complete reality. Now I have a husband with PTSD from Iraq and an Uncle newly dead from PTSD due to Vietnam. My life will always be many things and about many things, but one of those things will forever be the ugliness and long suffering of war. People can spout shit and crap with their agendas of Empire but if I were to stand next to them I would completely drain their aura and the majority of people would notice that truth prevails. Think that war is a good solution to anything…..come and look into my eyes, don’t fear, I am very calm and gentle so you can get very close to me. Look deep into my eyes and see my personal truth about war…..it is right there…..see it? See how it connects to that little wrinkle at the corner of my eye that oddly turns down..funny little crows foot of sadness…one has to be sad to make a little crows foot like that. My Uncle had them too, and now I see them coming to me also. My husband still has outbursts of irrational anger when family things aren’t “going right” even on the antidepressants. I am coming to understand that things had to go right in Iraq and one wrong thing could have meant someones life. One of the things I loved most about my husband when we were dating was how much he cared about the general safety and welfare of everybody. In the face of participating in a war this incredible gift in someones personality can bloom into a malignancy. I was proud that he did a great deal of the mission planning for the last half of the year that he was in Iraq. I knew that he was good at it, he was always the last helicopter in the air at the National Training Center when they would go play war games. He was originally trained by ex Vietnam helicopter pilots flying Cobras. The tricks up his sleeve are many and thankfully he doesn’t have to sit on his helmet to protect the family jewels anymore either. At home though war doesn’t go away. He startles awake all the time and now has to take sleep medication to even get a full night’s rest. The anger outbursts don’t become any fewer, they just shift subject when we have calmed and rationalized one subject, but I have come to understand that these outbursts aren’t about me or the kids or our current conditions and surroundings…..they are about survival and he may stay in survival in some respect for the rest of his life to a degree that I can’t compare. I am working on loving him through these because thankfully my soldier isn’t transported to a shit storm under fire when he is triggered. I can touch mine and hug mine and soothe mine. I don’t think that the sadness of war is ever meant to heal, but I believe that we are supposed to graduate onto other things in our lives though and find new happiness and old joys again. The sadness though is never supposed to leave! It is supposed to stay right there in the depth of my eye and live in that little crow’s foot, and I surrender those small embodiments. For the next generation who thinks that war is the answer, come over here you whipper snappers! Come over here and look this vibrant vivacious old girl in eye and tell me what you see there.
I don’t know. I really don’t. But I think you got a handle on the rage of your husband. It’s not you, it’s exactly as you said “things aren’t going right and that can cost a life”. I get the rage myself as I said upthread. I am glad, though, that you have the understanding, though it’s difficult, to realize that the loss of intimacy (if that’s a factor) and the rage outbursts have nothing to do with you or your son (hope he’s doing well, BTW). I also understand that it is possible to get through it with treatment and time. That’s why Ron’s article that leftvet referred to gave me some inspiration. I remember you diary about the house on dKos and it touched me. I hope that your family will finally find peace, but it will take love, work, and dedication. Good luck to you.
now and my life lessons. I guess a spouse has choices to make too and if I were a younger woman I might have decided to not have war be woven into the my life fabric. My husband was my best friend though before he became husband, it’s tough leaving your best friend. Losing my Uncle to Vietnam so soon after my husband came home? I now embrace that whatever powers that be and have brought war HOME for me must be trusted. We all carry important truths that we are meant to pass on to the next generation and without a doubt this is one of mine. I saw the “rage” only once in my Uncle and it scared the crap out of me. He had it under wraps pretty well, but my great grandmother had passed away in Nebraska and we were all traveling back in a caravan and I owned a Jeep Wrangler that didn’t go much over 65 mph in the Nebraska wind. My cousin had been giving my Aunt and Uncle the fits as a teenager and my Uncle Mike wanted to get home by nightfall because God only knows what Ben was going to hatch up if they didn’t. I remember that we stopped for gas and he just started yelling about how slow my vehicle was, and I remember the worried look on my Aunts face….she had obviously done a lot to help keep him under control but there had been a lot of stress around the funeral. I was really shocked though because I had never seen that ever before in my Uncle. I will do all that I can for my husband, all that I can possibly do.
I tried to find your personal email. Since it’s not listed, I’ll just confess to more than I have already. Good thing this is anonymous.
I am very sorry about your uncle. I remember your diary on that but couldn’t think of anything constructive to say, so I said nothing at all.
Yes, I believe suicide is a danger. In addition to my experience that I’ve spoken about, and my first wife leaving, my father died on Christmasday of that year from lung cancer. So, there’s 3 things I’m trying to deal with. I’ve found that I am pretty numb to the holidays, just another day to me. This last year, I was alone on Christmas eve, in a foreign country, and succumbed to the bottle once again. I decided (in my philosophical speech) that I wanted to self-abnegate, just go back into the abyss and dissolve (since I’m secular in my beliefs, other than the instance I described in the above thread). No note, no nothing, I took my sleep meds, Trazadone, in a great quantity along with a lot of beer and laid down to go to sleep. I was surprised to wake up in the morning.
Only after seeing a shrink did I realize that I had PTSD and not just depression. I also found out that shrinks are smart and most sleep meds, like mine, are practically useless for such purposes.
But in January my mom and younger brother came to visit me. I confessed to my mom and when we were in Berlin, with my romantic interest with us, she said to me privately “see what you would’ve missed?”
I guess what I am trying to say is that sometimes the feelings get so intense that you just want relief. I am sorry you lost your father figure and uncle to this. But take it from me, if there is someone in your life that has this and if there is ever a situation like this, it just takes someone to be there to help them get over the moment.
Now, it’s spring, and I am loving life more than ever. I can’t believe that I even thought of that. Maybe I’m talking out of my ass, but in someway I just want to try and share some comfort from someone who has been there, in the depths of despair, and hopefully help in some way.
God! Now I’ve really spilt my guts all over the internets!
the house. My husband also is taking Trazadone for sleep, but it hasn’t been helping much lately so they are talking about switching him but he thinks that he would rather stick with the Trazadone and we bought a light and sound machine that helps people get out of their frontal lobes. I have tried it and I think the damn thing is swell. He tried it once a couple of days ago and I think it disturbed him a little bit, but today I see that he recharging the batteries for it so he must me thinking about using it tonight. From my Uncles letter it has been the sleeplessness that was the most distressing thing for him, and it makes sense to me since sleep is when the brain resets and heals and nourishes itself. I suppose the nightmares are its attempt to heal but in reexperiencing things then people awaken and become hypervigilant and healing never gets to take place as they need it to. What a Catch 22! I am part of the frog_pond@yahoogroups.com if you ever want to email me. I just joined a few days back but haven’t participated a great deal as of yet. God I’m so glad that you weren’t successful when you just wanted to dissolve!!! The world really needs the voices of all of us who have experienced what war really breeds, we have a place in this world and it is a precious place! I noticed that my husband is totally secular in his beliefs since he has come back from Iraq. It’s kind of funny cuz I have always been very secular, but he used to worry about whether or not he was listening to the right God or not. I couldn’t offer him help, I told him to follow his heart and I would tell him why I believed the way that I did. Now that he has returned home he told me that he is Buddhist and he understands what I was talking about. I’m glad that he understood what I was talking about because damned if I know what I’m talking about where God is concerned most of the time.
If you haven’t tried, may I suggest you do? It is something that you and your husband (and your son too to a degree) can do together and it is the most mind-cleansing thing I have ever been a part of — I earned my gold sash a couple of weeks ago and it has taught me so much already…and given me an outlet that is very productive in terms of my physical, emtal and spritual harmony. Just a suggestion.
Big hugs to you, as always.
Look out! I have never done Ta’i Chi but I have seen it done I think. The summer I spent in Korea, it was very hot and humid as it is here in Alabama. I was still losing my baby weight from having my son so I had been running. The only time I could run though in Korea was when the sun was coming up, otherwise it was just too hot to run. So every morning I was out there running my chubby little fanny off and all the Koreans were doing something that looked like Ta’i Chi, and they did it all over the place. The shop owner would be out in front of his shop doing it and the next door neighbor lady would be out in the garden. They were on the sidewalks…..all over the place every morning just where ever they happened to be doing what looked like Ta’i Chi to me. I always had this weird feeling running by that they were quietly thinking to themselves, “look at the funny, chubby, gasping, sweating, American lady!”
No need to look out — it’s only one rank above white sash (like a white belt in other martial arts). Early morning before eating is the very best time, so I have no doubt that what you were seeing was some form (there are many) and that what you ascribe to their thoughts was not far off the mark! 😉
I was an illegal (shhhhh) worker in Korea for some months…were you in Seoul?
Wow what a Cosmopolitan city. I would meet the most amazing people on the streets from Australia, every place imaginable. We lived at Camp Humphrey’s though. I can’t remember the name of the small village outside of the post that we lived in but it was near Pyongtaek. We used to go to Osan a lot and shop. My husband would fly around and spot restaurants and then we would try to find them driving. We ate at a giant cement mushroom once and a large ship sailing inland, it was a lot of fun. The people loved our children, our kids were very safe and cherished there.
Timezone difference so my reply may be a little late. For me, Trazadone is just horrible and I avoid taking it unless I have to. Mainly because my problem is waking up around two or three and not being able to get back to sleep. When I take a traz, it leaves me so friggin groggy the next morning and afternoon. I had much better success on Sonoma. Very short half life that will put you to sleep but gone by morning. Unfortunately, with batshit loopy asshat’s VA cuts, cutting edge medicine is not on the VA formulary, they have the obsolete stuff. So that is what I am stuck with. Since I started AA, even though I had a massive fallback, I’ve been trying not to use the booze as a substitute.
My mom studys with a Buddist monk in Northern Cali. Not the new age crap, but the real thing. She sent me a book by the Dalai Lama called “The Art of Happiness” which I find to be very productive and helpful. If your husband has started to explore Buddism, that book may make a wonderful gift if he doesn’t already have it (for yourself as well.).
I am happy that I didn’t self-abnegate as well. I remember mom saying that the Buddists believe that doing so really sets you back and call it going 4. Meaning, going to four legs as the penalty when one is reincarnated. So I could concievably be writing to you as a newt if I was successful. Seriously, it adds a whole new dimension to that monk (the famous photo) who incinerated himself in protest of Vietnam – knowing the penalty that he would pay for trying to stop the killing.
Hang in there kiddo, I can already see from your diaries that you’re becoming stronger. It takes time, but things will get better once you pass the spiritual tests. I’m glad your husband is back safe and sound. Does he fly Apaches? I have a foundness for the pilots who flew us around from TF 160. I’m more familiar with the Blackhawk guys though.
I think Brin’s suggestion of Tai Chi is a good one as I have been considering Yoga for myself.
BTW, give me more info on that machine, if you will. I think I may be interested in it.
soldiers any better than they were last year. They claimed to be screening then so asked my husband when everything started happening to us about his supposed return screening. The returning soldiers were debriefed in large groups and at one point during the debriefing they were told that if any of them were having “problems” due to the war please raise your hand so that we can get you help. My husband laughs his ass off at this. #1. Everybody has just left a war and you are a bunch of warriors all packed together…….how would a person know if they were having “problems”? Being a light sleeper is a war necessity. Being quick to retaliate is a war necessity. Being always alert and ready for any kind of attack is a war necessity. Every single soldier in this bunch probably is operating in all of those modes at the time they are asked this question in a large warrior group……..Who would know they were fried? #2. If they did know they were fried who is going to raise their fucking hand in this group? Not ME!!! I’m going to sit there and shut the fuck up and get the hell out of there and find my gear and my shit and throw it in the car and hope that the hugs and the kisses from my family bring my heart back to life and love!
a Star Trek episode about a group of people who had trained warriors and then, when the fighting was over, had shipped all of them off to another planet because they couldn’t integrate back into society? I am not a big “trekky” but saw this episode once and it really stuck with me. I don’t even remember whether it was in the original series or one of the later ones.
Thanks for drawing the parallel between the govt-blames-the-grunts approach then and now — and the hypocrisy of the govt then accusing the other side of being the one who abuses the vets.
You ask whether we nonvets would be willing down the road to give up some of the govt’s money in favor of the vets. In spirit yes, but the choice is never presented in that way to us. Personally, I’d rather have one less bomber plane and hand the money to the people who deserve it. There’d be much more to go around.
but, as you are aware, it is virtually never framed as bomber vs veterans benefits. The frame is always, “It’s YOUR entitlement benefits, or THEIR entitlement benefits. Make your choice.”
In that frame, vets lose
that the govt doesn’t frame it as “your benefits against theirs”. Instead, they give obscene amounts of money behind the scenes (to the military-industrial complex, dictators, etc.) and then when it’s time to give money to the vets, they claim the piggy bank is empty.
Leftyvet,
Hello once more from the land down under, and congrats again for a darn good post.
However, setting aside the reminicing, and the enlighting moments we read on here, the fact is, that once more, the U.S.’s best youth, (and Australian) is being sent of to the meat grinder for questionable purposes.
Before this illegal invasion even occured, I spent months explaining to Americans and Australians, what would happen if the invasion went ahead and the consequences of WAR, should the genie be let out from the bottle.
Sad to say, my voice was nothing but a faint whisper ijn the wind, and no one even took any notice of it at all.
Worse, many people called me names and accused me of being sympathetic to Saddam, a commie, a left, and even worse.
I gain no satisfaction whatever, to find that my words of warning have been vindicated, and proven accurate in every way.
I just wonder how much longer this will be allowed to go on, by the citizens of the U.S. and how many more lives must be ruined for nothing but a bunch of lies once more.
That’s why I say, the time for rekindling old memories is long past, Vets are very well aware of what’s in the offing, what must be done is to utilise that knowledge and ensure the younger people become a part of it and privy to it, so’s they become informed and can make informed judgements on these issues, and the only way that is going to be done, is with movies like the one mentioned above, but better still, why not hold information nights in public halls, have Vets as guest speakers, allow them to give their experiences, aquaint the people of the knowledge gathered in our time, surely this would begin to have an effect ?????????????????????????????????????
I got that “lefty, commie” thing once. Happened on campus with a confrontation with a Young Republican member. My reply was: “Hey you little prick (he was bigger than me, since I’m only 5’6), until you wear 120lbs of parachute and equipment and jump into the blackness out of a C130 in the middle of the night, don’t even try to talk to me about love of country!” That shut him up real good!
All I can say is thank you for writing this story. It’s pretty obvious to anyone who has read my posts here and at dKos that I often view what is going on today through 35 year old lenses and with a great sense of alarm, so when I saw your earlier comments, I just knew that you had experiences that would be incredibly valuable to the other folks here and at Kos.
A lot of the history of Vietnam was lost in America’s rush to forget, and it only exists in the minds and memories of those who went through those terrible times – if we don’t put it out there, it will die with us, and that would be a terrible shame.
But even I never expected the intensity of your gifted writing, and the river of emotions that your words have brought forth from others.
You did well, lv, you did very well, and I thank you.