This is Robert Raymond. He died in 1916, in the trenches of France. He was my great-grandfather. His daughter, Hilda, will be 89 this year. She was born after he died. My great-grandmother, Edith, Hilda’s mother, died at the age of 37, leaving my grandmother an orphan.
I have this photo of Robert, and I stare at it, trying to imagine what his life was like. I can’t ask my grandmother; she never met him. And I try to picture the day that Edith received the news that the man whose child she was carrying had died in the war.
World War I was a colossal waste of life. It was a war that had no purpose, no planning, no meaning. It was The Great War. It cost Europe a generation of young men.
As far as I know, Robert Raymond’s story has not been told. He has vanished; I’m not even sure where he is buried. Three generations later, all I have is this tiny photograph. I search his face for clues. What made him laugh? Cry? What were his dreams? What was his childhood like? When he was in the trenches, did he have a chance to reflect on what he was doing, why he was there; did he know he’d never get home to England again?
I wish that someone would sit down with George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney and make them look at the photographs of the 1700+ American dead in this war. I’d like them to have to talk to someone who loved each of those men and women, hear a story from his or her childhood, or what he or she liked to do, what he or she wanted to be, what made him or her laugh. I think the price for being Commander-in-Chief is to be haunted by the people you have sent to their deaths. I think the fact that you told lies in order to start this war should be the kind of black spot on your soul that all the invocation of God and country and Jesus cannot erase. I think you should have to wear a letter “M” for murderer, that in your wallet, when people ask to see photographs of your children, you should be forced to bring out a picture or two of soldiers you sent to their deaths. You should have to tell their stories.
“These are my children,” you should have to say. “These are my kids, and I am responsible for their deaths.”
Update [2005-6-27 9:53:15 by lorraine]: I am shaking. Musings85 sent me an e-mail, telling me that he had found Robert’s grave. Here’s the information:
Robert Raymond.
My grandmother has never known where her father was buried. Michael has now made it possible for her to know, and for me to take my children to lay flowers. I’m unbelievably touched by this act of kindness on his behalf.
And, the amazing part is to realize I’ve never known the whole story. You see, he died when my grandmother, born in November of 1916, was an infant. Not when her mother was pregnant. So now the question is, did he ever get to see his baby girl? I’m overcome with emotion right now.
you stated, Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld, they have no soul, they have no heart and they only care for the riches that this war will bring to their friends companies and through them to themselves. They will be rich beyond avarice, yet each will be poorer for having no soul. For feeling nothing in the destruction of so many lives, the loss of a parent, son, daughter, friend, loved one, they only care about themselves and those that can contribute something of value into their dirty little lives.
I knew a man like these men, he was my father, who hated his children and everyone who was not like himself. I visualize him in hell, now that he has died. Not that hell envisioned by the christians, this hell is having to live over in the same way he caused others to suffer. I visualize Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld in hell, when they leave this earth, to suffer over and over again, watching their families suffer in hunger, pain, the agony of learning that a son or daughter, mother or father has died in an illegal war.
That Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld are the Axis of evil, combined they create the Anti-Christ, bound to destroy the world that we live in, polluting the air we breath, the water we drink and the food we eat. I can only hope that as a culture, the American people will rise and send these criminals packing, hopefully to the nearest federal prison.
Thank you. I’m speechless.
On a similar theme, did you see my recent diary about my visit to a US WWI military cemetery in Eastern France last week?
Jerome,
Thank you. No, I had not seen this post. This is beautiful. I had a similar experience when I was in Lisieux, Normandy. There was a memorial garden with the list of WWI and WWII military dead. In a town of maybe 25,000, there were 760 names. I counted them. I live in a town of the same size, and I tried to imagine losing that many young men. It would make a hole.
If only WWI had been the war to end all wars.
What really scares me about this war is that I really, really doubt that Bush and his co-conspirators care about the lives they’ve snuffed out. Sit them down with photos of the 1700 war dead and no cameras or tape recorders in the room, and I’m willing to bet that, within an hour, they’d be laughing about how this chick’s nose looks funny or how ugly that guy is and having a grand old time.
I’m so glad that Canada’s last Prime Minister had the good sense to keep us out of this mess.
My grandfather also served in World War II, though far from the front lines. Even though he was just a farmer from Ontario, he managed to get assigned to technical work behind the lines by pure luck. He still doesn’t like to talk about the war, from what I can gather, because a lot of people he knew weren’t so lucky. I somehow wound up studying both wars a lot in school, though, which could explain a lot about why I’m very strongly opposed to unnecessary wars. (World War II, for example, was necessary at the time) Reading about the effects of mustard gas and of clueless officers ordering cavalry charges on machine gun nests tends to do that to one.
You might be comforted somewhat by considering what, according to the Buddhists, happens to the soul after death. As I understand it, according to them, each disincarnate soul undergoes a long “life review”– year by year, action by action, relationship by relationship– only, this time, they see the effects their words and deeds had on others. They see the pain, the grief, the joy, whatever. In this way, they begin to experience their karma.
So your father had to face after death everything he preferred not to know in life.
FWIW, my dear.
That my own spiritual path is very much like the buddhists, is apparent. The Native American spiritualism that I have practiced for the last 17 years has given me great peace of mind and relief from the insanity of growing up with a madman for a father. I strive to accept others as they are and give respect in all ways, yet I am just a human being and subject to all the frailities of that reality.
I despise what Bushco and his merry band of thieving thugs is doing to my country and to the world at large. I can only hope that when their time comes, they will know the depth of the destruction they have perpetuated upon mankind and be suitably punished for these many crimes upon humanity.
And the Buddha said
All that we are arises
With our thoughts.
With our thoughts,
We make our world.
So it works both ways. Evil men like BushCo make themselves more evil, but we have to be careful not to let ourselves be sucked into their filth by thinking and saying many negative things.
Although, it’s hard, hard work I tell you, not to sometimes!
Something I believe and live by to the best of my ability. You are indeed right, it is very very hard to live by this code, when mealy mouthed, lying, reichwing, theocratic, thieving, imperialist scalywags have taken over my government and want to destroy my rights as an American citizen. Yet I know that I can overcome this enflamement, given enough time and therapy. An that is my story and I am sticking to it.
A friend left me a phone message yesterday (have to check with her as to source), to the effect that she had read of a study that showed the power of labeling: Two jars of water, one labeled Hate and the other Love.
Both were photographed with some fancy-schmancy equipment, and the water in the Hate jar showed up as dark streaks, twisted lines, all manner of unpleasantries.
Well, that’s vastly oversimplified, but it sure did make me think, because I can get far too sucked into the But They Are Wrong! school of thought. And there’s precious little in our Amerkken culture to encourage gentle tolerance and understanding of conflicting others.
I know and I have to work to remember that Bushco and company, have some humanity, damn this is hard work. But I also remember that my ancestors were overwhelmed by greedy bushco types and lost all of their lands and their way of life, because they held to their beliefs. They were not only appalled, but totally taken by surprise that a white man’s word was worthless, but not until all their lands were taken and they were placed on the reservations.
I won’t allow myself to fall into that trap and I will call a crook a crook, a war criminal a war criminal and bushco and his merry band of lying thieves will wear that label for as long as this old indian/welshman is alive.
That is my story and I am sticking to it.
My grandfather died when my dad was 7 and his baby sister was two. The siser soon followed. They died of TB, but what they left behind was a widow and a son. Back then, it was extremely difficult for women to earn a living to care for their children. There were very few careers for them and the earnings were always very slim. My grandma made it by living with her aunt, a spindster/teacher. Together, they were able to eek out a living and care for the ederly in their families as well.
I guess my point is, war leaves behind widows and we cannot forget them. While it is better today, we still have a long way to go.
You said: World War I was a colossal waste of life. It was a war that had no purpose, no planning, no meaning.
I vehemently disagree with this statement. World War I had a profound meaning. It was a war fought to stymie one of the most arrogant militaristic nations in the world, Kaiser Wilhelm’s Germany, from establishing world dominance. More importantly, from the American perspective (at least that of Woodrow Wilson), it was a war fought to end all wars, to “make the world safe for democracy,” to establish a lasting world peace.
It has become the fashion in historical circles to bash Woodrow Wilson as an inferior President; even overtly unbiased books, such as James Chace’s otherwise excellent <u>1912</u> (which I’ve just finished reading), fall into this trap. In part, I think this is owing to an alarming sense of anti-intellectualism in the historical profession (something I’m considering getting into for a scholarly article somewhere) — but that’s another conversation altogether. In my view, Wilson was an idealist who, despite a debilitating series of strokes, pursued a goal — world peace and governance — that marked one of the very highest moments in American political discourse. The fact that his natural stubbornness and increasing illness prevented him from achieving his goal does not take away from the nobility of the goal itself.
There is a tendency in the liberal movement, I think (and Lorraine, I’m not talking about you here any more; in fact, I haven’t been for quite a while) to argue against Bush’s perceived rigid idealism as a bad quality in a President. In this mold, Wilson as well as Bush becomes a non sequitur in the world of ideal Presidents. My problem with Bush is that 1) I don’t think he really believes any of the stuff he says, and phony idealism is one of the greatest evils I know; and 2) I think the particular set of ideals he’s fighting for is wrongheaded and un-American. I DO think we need a strongly idealistic, ideological President, John Kerry being the perfect example of someone who does not fit that mold and thus is a political weakling.
I’ve rambled here — sorry.
My problem with Wilson is that he allowed someone like Mitchell Palmer, his AG, to run wild; that while Wilson was president, free speech in this country was curtailed; that people were stripped of their citizenship (eg Emma Goldman) and kicked out of the country.
Do I think his dream of a league of nations was a beautiful idea? Yes. Do I believe him to have been an idealist. Yes. Do I think his presidency is complicated because there were times when other people were running the show becuase of his illnesses? Yes.
I don’t want another president who bases his opinions on what the polls tell him to think. I want a man or woman of integrity and ideas. I think you and I agree here.
I’m curious as to what constitutes “anti-intellectualism” in historical circles. I’m not sure what you’re referring to, as I was not an American historian and have thus not followed its historiography carefully.
Thanks for engaging me here.
I wholeheartedly agree about Wilson. While his ideas on internationalism were wonderful, there were many abhorrent aspects to Wilson’s Presidency. While Wilson was preaching peace and harmony in Europe, he sent the U.S. military into Cuba, Mexico, Haiti, and Nicaragua to either occupy these nations or install dictatorial regimes that would oversee American interests. In addition to attacks on civil liberties you mention above, Wilson also has the distinction of being the only President to put his losing opponent in jail after winning the election. 1912 Socialist candidate Eugene Debs was stripped of his citizenship and sentenced to 10 years for making anti-war speeches. And the Socialists were no fringe party at that time. They had a couple of members of Congress, dozens of eleced state legislators and Debs got 6% of popular vote running against Wilson.
Wilson was the most avowed racist to sit in the White House in modern times. Many people are unaware that Wilson was the first post-Reconstruction President from the South. While he entered politics in New Jersey as a result of his academic stint at Princeton, Wilson was born in Virginia and raised in Georgia by parents who supported the Confederacy. The marginal advancements made by African-Americans in government starting in Teddy Roosevelt’s Administration were rolled back by Wilson.
In all, I think Wilson gets a pass by far too many because of his post-WW1 efforts at diplomacy. His Presidency is not something I would wish on America ever again.
I’m with you on Wilson’s failings. He wasn’t a perfect president by any means (and his view that God justified his cheating on his wife because he was so brilliant is acutely offensive). The people I have a problem with are those who criticize him for being disingenuous as an idealist.
As for the anti-intellectualism bit: many books, including Chace’s <u>1912</u>, seem to attack Wilson at the expense of Theodore Roosevelt. I’ve examined this, and the two presidents seem to have been guilty of much the same failings. Wilson is attacked for changing his view on progressivism, yet Roosevelt moved during his career from corporate hackery to virtual communism and back again. Wilson is attacked for racism, yet Roosevelt never lifted a finger to stop lynching or help Southern blacks despite professing allegiance to their cause, a form of double-talk that I find particularly offensive. Wilson curtailed free speech, yet Roosevelt supported in 1912 direct recall of Supreme Court Justices by popular vote, a provision more stifling of freedom than DeLay’s views today.
The only thing I can get from these historians is that Roosevelt’s offenses are somehow forgivable because he symbolized the American spirit, where Wilson did not. TR, despite being a very well-read and intellectual man, exuded a public persona based on physical strength and bravery, while Wilson was to people the intellectual, the academic. Wilson is the only President ever to have gotten a doctorate, and he was a Professor of History — and he exuded that nerdy ideological personality that is anathema to many in the popular culture.
Whether someone who views knowledge as the highest goal (Wilson) or someone who views brute strength as the highest goal (TR, at least in his public persona) is more “American” is, of course, a matter of debate, but I am shocked and saddened to see history professors siding with brute strength. It seems to me that members of any profession, historical or otherwise, have an obligation to view their job as important in and of itself, not marginalize it as they seem to be doing by going after Wilson while giving Roosevelt a free pass.
So there’s the gist of my argument. Did you really want to know all this? And what type of history DID you focus on, if not American?
to “make the world safe for democracy”
Exactly the problem and exactly the same marketing line. WWI did not begin to make the world safe for democracy, it made the world safe for American business exploitation. What on earth does “safe for democracy” mean? See Wilson and manifest destiny in Mexico, China, Nicaragua, Panama, Dominican Republic, Haiti, Cuba, Guatemala, Honduras, the Phillipines, Yugoslavia and even the U.S.S.R.
Listen to Wilson’s Major General Smedley Butler’s 1940 speech:
“I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism…. I could have given Al Capone a few hints….. I helped make Mexico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys…. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefits of Wall Street…. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers…. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China I helped see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.”
Reflect on the history in its context, not as it is cast in American history text books. Consider the gilded age and that political backdrop. Some things never change.
World War I was also about maintaining the power of existing imperial nations against upstarts, about maintaining the privilege of the rich, and so on. In fact, I would go so far as to say that World War I was nothing more or less than a colossal mistake – a war no-one wanted, but which everyone felt obligated to fight in due to mutual defence treaties and matters of honour. It, and the exploitation of Germany by the occupying forces after the war, lead directly to the rise of Hitler, the atrocities of the Nazis, and World War II.
It always seems to be about maintaining the privilege of the rich, or the power of the powerful. The question I always wonder about is why do ordinary folks play along?
Mounting a popular resistance today has become more difficult than ever, what with the advanced weaponry possesed by the government and the propoganda being spewed by the government-controlled media.
But back in the days before all this, what kept people in line?
There is a book called “Natural History of the Rich” that touched a bit on why we willingly worship the rich and powerful, and our tendency to form hierarchies. Until we can break the hierarchy habit, I don’t see how we will ever break this cycle. Of course I know I’m preaching to the choir here, Boo people are unlikely to play along with those schemes, but unfortunately so many people in this country and even the world are willing to. And there are just enough bastards at the top to continue to take advantage of it.
It is depressing to think of how difficult it is to break the cycle, but the internet give me hope. It’s a sprawling, non hierarchical thing, though there is still the problem of access. You still need money to get online.
For pretty much the same reason they do now, unfortunately. Much of the propaganda methods used by Rove and friends were developed or perfected during this period. It was also marked by the (intentional) development of intense nationalism. Popular songs from the period tended to be about how great and powerful their nation of origin was. For example, the song that inspired the title of Terry Pratchett’s Jingo. It was from about thirty years earlier, but I think it’s still a good example.
In short, the war was spun as being about national pride, and people rushed to defend their nation’s image.
why do ordinary folks play along?
We’re still animals. As much as we like to distance ourselves, we’re still our biology, survival of the fittest and all. In our consumer culture, we’ve defined “fittest” as $$$. The result is a chain reaction of perceived lack, having to accumulate more stuff to compete.
We all buy in. Think about how success is measured, not in quality of life but in earning power. We educate our children not to improve their quality of life, but for competitive earning power. Manifest destiny is embedded in our white Christian culture, this brand of Christianity aligns with the might, screw the meek. God wants us to have more, we’re more deserving.
That’s a little different than the interpretations I learned in college, which was that everyone was spoiling for war, for economic as well as political reasons.
The collossal waste were the millions upon millions of dead, the “lost generation,” used as fodder to fight a 19th-century war with 20th-century weapons. When you hear about things like English and German soldiers waging peace over Christmas, in spite of officers’ outrage, for example, I cannot but believe all the more how WW1 was waged by politicians, with little care for how the people felt.
Wilson’s folly afterwards with the League of Nations was in not making it a global organization. It created a skewed dialog, and was doomed to failure. That’s why the UN is all-inclusive — to avoid Wilson’s mistake.
We also learned from allied mistakes when it came to dealing with the vanquished. It’s no small thing to note that post WWI Germany became a totalitarian nationalist state with big gripes with the world, and post WW2 Germany (and Japan, for that matter) became a productive ally and economic power.
What are we doing in Iraq? Profiteering, it seems.
It’s been [censored] years since I studied with Professor Gerald Feldman, and my history books are in storage-unit prison. Yet history seems to repeat itself. I think I’m going to dig up those books; hopefully in re-reading them I won’t be learning about our future.
Thanks Lorraine for another great diary. I’m so happy to see someone succinctly state what is also my opinion of ‘the Great War.’ I find it quite odd when I hear some people speak about how the U.S. was ‘late’ coming to war in both world wars. Would it not be more apt to say that the initial combatants were too quick to start hostilities, particularly in 1914 ?
Another amazing diary Lorraine. Thank you. If we were able to ask the president these questions I do believe his answer would be the same as it has been repeatedly siad by him, “History shall be the judge. I only care what the historians will say about me 50 years from now”. Once again proving that his does not give a flying “f” about what is happeneing to our children or the long term consequences his actions will bring for future generations. He only cares about his legacy. I only hope that we can rewrite the history he has planned for himself. This man has failed at all he has taken on and he is a miserable failure as a president. Are you all ready to stand up and put into action what we all having been screaming for? Then mark Sept 24th on your calendar, start printing those pictures of our dead children and meet me at the gates of the White House. For more information please go to http://www.impeachbush.org/. We can make this happen if we unite as “ONE”!
… before the political world fell apart my main hobby was genealogy. Though purely amateur, I love doing genealogical research.
One word of caution on the update you have received. Dates on headstones can often be incorrect. As can family memories and stories. Each piece of information that comes along from a reliable source can and should be taken as such but not taken as completely accurate until original source records can be found to verify it.
It is very simple for someone going down a list of names and dates to write 17 when they should have written 16. Happens all the time. There should be other information available about his unit and the battles they engaged in. It might be possible to pinpoint exactly when and where he died. It should at least be possible to verify if the date above is reasonably accurate and if a date of 1916 is likely or not.
I am glad to hear that someone has been able to find this information for you. Hopefully this will open up doors that will allow you to reconstruct at least a little bit of his and his families life.
Peace,
Andrew
Thanks for the caution. All the other information is correct; names of spouse and former address, etc. I called my mom. She said that her mother was alive when her father was killed, so there must have been some earlier version of the story told at one time. But now that I have this basic information, I can perhaps find out the details of his death: where he was fighting, perhaps even how he died. It’s not so much morbid curiosity as it is a wish to flesh out a person whose blood runs through my veins but who I know nothing about.
Thanks Andrew.
Names, dates, and places are the basics of genealogy but the real pleasure comes from learning a little something about our ancestors lives… getting a taste of who they really were, what was important to them, and how they spent their lives.
My family has been blessed with a series of letters between husband and wife that were saved, copied, and passed down through the generations. My great-great-great-grand-father Dr. William White was a surgeon in the War of 1812 in service on the Niagara frontier. He wrote his wife, Mary Russell White, regularly and we have letters from he battlefront as well as others during peacetime. While only glimpses, they give a real feel for who these people were and what their lives were like… as well as first hand accounts of a small slice of history.
Over years of research with these little bits of information to go on we have been able to recontruct a great deal of their lives. But it is still the personal letters between them that let us know who they really were and where our family has come from.
I suggest following the military angle. From there you should be able to find records of his unit, rosters, dates and places. Often there are memoirs written by other members or commanders. Regimental histories. You may get lucky and one of these will be available and will have been written by someone that knew him or commanded his unit. I have met cousins by researching my civil war ancestors and finding they were ahead of me in researching that particular ancestor.
Good Luck!
Peace,
Andrew
Andrew,
The novelist in me is so jealous that you have those letters. Thank you for all the tips. I would like to be able to tell my daughters where they came from. I have some of the history, but only bits and pieces.
lb
I have thought about writing the story. One of these days I may well sit down with my brother (who I do research with) and do just that.
If you need any help or hints where to find information please don’t hesitate to ask. I am not very familiar with English resources since my most recent immigrant ancestor came over during the civil war and virtually every other line in my family were amongst the first wave of immigrants in the early to mid 1600’s. However, I’d be happy to help out where I can.
Based on the cemetary information saying he was a member of the Lancashire Fusiliers and the designation of the unit as 1/7 bn… I found this site…
http://www.1914-1918.net/lancsfus.htm
which designates 1/7th battalion and lists the following information:
1/7th Battalion
August 1914 : in Salford. Part of Lancashire Fusiliers Brigade, East Lancs Division. 25 September 1914 : landed in Egypt. 5 May 1915 : landed on Gallipoli. 26 May 1915 : formation became 125th Brigade, 42nd Division. 28 December 1915 : landed on Mudros, and proceeded to Egypt. 27 February 1917 : landed Marseilles and proceeded to the Western Front
Clicking the link embedded for the 42nd Division brings you to this page:
http://www.1914-1918.net/42div.htm
which provides a great deal of regimental history and shows, if his entire service was in this unit, that he was right in the thick of things in an ugly, ugly war (like there are wars that aren’t).
The War Department in Great Britain can probably come up with his service dates or payroll records. This will show units he was assigned to, potentially commanders, etc. Combined with the regimental history and some WWI history you should be able to recreate his part in the war.
From what little I read on the web site listed above it appears that the “territorial” battalions were an equivalent of our national guard and therefore it would appear that he was probably from East Lancashire. If you can get his service records you can probably nail that down. I don’t know if you have info on his parents and family going backwards but this should help narrow down where to look for them if you don’t. Birth records in that area for him would be the next step. These should show parents. Baptismal records are another source though often less accurate.
My parents emigrated from England in 1965 (I was a 2-year old). My mother was born in Besses O’ The Barn, the town whose story was immortalized by Alfred Noyes in the poem “The Highwayman.” My father was born in Manchester. I was born in Bury, and Prestwich, where my grandmother was born, is close to there. Probably the largest city closest to where she lives now is Bolton.
But this other information I couldn’t find. Which is amazing because I found that site and didn’t know what I was doing. So A HUGE THANK YOU for doing this. Now I’m going to go read it.
I will invite my parents to read this thread. They’ll be stunned by how kind you all are being.
I saw but didn’t read an extensive set of instructions and links under the link “research a soldier.” I recommend following their suggestions and seeing what info it can bring you. You’d be surprised how even the smallest amount of data can provide a hint of other places to look. If you find yourself at a stymied don’t hesitate to share what you have and ask for suggestions. There are several of us that enjoy genealogy and can provide help or suggestions. The internet is full of resources and data.
Another word of caution!
Genealogy is addicting! And time consuming. LOL
You can sit down with a spare 15 minutes to “take a quick look” and 15 hours later come up for air.
I’m already hooked. I’ve been looking at this stuff all day. What’s funny is I haven’t been back to England for four years. Now I’m looking at all this stuff and getting incredibly homesick. I’ll have to go back soon. By the way, by doing some research, I found this information on Besses, which has always been my favourite name for a town (Okay. Maybe Ramsbottom comes close.)
Just to the north of Prestwich lies Besses O’ Th’ Barn. This oddly named area, known locally simply as “Besses”, is actually an old industrial town whose name has potentially colourful origins. One improbable explanation of the placename involves the highwayman Dick Turpin’s famous horse, Black Bess. But, in all probability the name derives from one its most infamous pub landladies. Besses is probably best known for its celebrated brass band, multiple prize and championship winners, one of the oldest surviving brass band ensembles in the world.
Dr. William White that I mentioned above helped to settle the “wilds” of Western New York. Local history books contain a few mentions of him and other relatives as building the 1st grist mill or being the first doctor or… similar stuff. A couple years ago I attended a weekend conference in Buffalo and instead of coming home via the interstate I traveled local roads, in particular the “Ridge Road” which was surveyed by Otis Turner, a cousin and husband of his William’s sister Salome. It travels through all sorts of towns I’ve read about in my research that they lived in or helped build. I hope to make many similar trips in the future.
Ancestry.com shows this entry:
Personal Information
Name: Raymond, Robert
Record Type: Births
Quarter: September
Year: 1891
District: Prestwich
County: Lancashire
Volume: 8d
Page: 438 (click to see others on page)
… which would make him service age during WWI.
Do you know Edith’s maiden name? The records there don’t seem to go much past 1900. There were a couple Edith Hilda Raymond’s but they were born to early to be Hilda and too late to be Edith (besides Raymond not likely being her maiden name).
Both Ancestry.com and the LDS site contain whatever people have submitted to them. In other words incredibly inaccurate information. However, both contain some original documents such as census and birth records and even the inaccurate stuff can provide hints and leads that eventually get you to the reliable stuff. They also can send you on wild goose chases.
If Robert Raymond was born in September 1891, he should have been recorded as being 26 years old at the time of his death on 18/10/1917, whereas the info from the cemetery says 25 as if it happened in 1916. So there it is again this discrepancy – was it 1916 or 1917 when he was killed in action?
Sorry to butt in like that on a very personal matter. I am just trying to point out something that might be added to the list of things to check out or consider.
Correct. And the entry I listed above may or may not be him. It simply was the right name in the right area and the right time frame. Could be a cousin or another family altogether. My brother and I spent a long time sorting out Samuel White’s. There was ours, his first cousin, his uncle, and distant cousin, and one or two from another family of White’s all within a generation of each other and in neighboring towns… even back in the early days when there simply weren’t that many people around! We finally figured out which was which by sorting/matching details and process of elimination.
It wouldn’t be half as fun if there weren’t mysteries to solve and personal connections to make.
There is a great article in Harper’s this month on genealogy, the first Americans, and tracing one’s roots. It’s the July issue, which may not yet be on newsstands, but the article is fantastic.
Andrew’s right.
Not just dates, but names are frequently garbled, in census reports, court records, even gravestones. I have a several times great-grandfather who was at the battle of Shiloh and is buried under a stone with a completely screwed-up name. It took years to find him.
But such good news for you, Lorraine. As I read your original post, I was thinking the information was probably out there somewhere on a genealogical site, and wonderfully surprised that someone was so fast in finding it!
Egads! Shaking indeed, normal reaction to this on your part.
Another incredible Internet moment. I followed thru to the cemetary info. Saw a picture of the place where he lies. Possibly before your grandmother has a chance to — how ironic.
Occurs to me I could “travel” in the same way to see some other data about my family, OR, that we could record it digitally for future generations.
The Internet is truly such a remarkable tool to knit humanity together, to create more good for humanity. Thanks to those who created this site so this could happen here.
[Usual plug]. Also changing humanity’s view of our continuing goodness: http://www.HeroicStories.com
<quote>
All such abstract, anecdotal and grand theories [about the origins of the war] merely obscure the real reason for war: the recklessness and lack of judgment of a few politicians. Rathenau [political figure during the Weimar Republic, assassinated shortly before Hitler’s rise to power]famously claimed that two hundred elderly men who knew one another controlled the fate of Europe and the world.
<end quote>
Quote comes from “The Pity of It All, A history of jews in Germany, 1743-1933” by Amos Elon.
Thanks, Lorraine, for this moving diary. The photo is really mysterious, very alive, touching.
I read a lot of history. Always have. And a lot of raw source material– love letters, for instance. And until recently, until Bush, I was more or less persudaded by the notions of historiography of writers like Richard Cobb, Schama, Braudel, Mona Ozouf, & others, during the 60’s & 70’s (post-Marxist hermeneutics, I guess)who saw history more or less as a series of movements, currents, ideas, circumstances, innovations, weather (etc) and not as the work of kings or heroes or the few actors who wielded power.
George Bush & the cabal of Busheviks (neo-s & theo-s) have almost succeeded in changing my mind. They are so few, really. Though they try to pass themselves off as many. Am also impressed by the role of the old guard (the old grey hairs like Geo. Schulz, who selected & anointed Smirky McWhacko, quite like the bankers & industrialist chose to back Adolf H in 1929).
So that passage I quote above really speaks to me right now. Just a small number of politicians sprinkled around Europe launched a war that massacred millions and millions and millions of people, your grandfather among them.
The severe reparations imposed by the allies on Germany, then, btw—which are usually credited for the conditions that allowed Adolf H to come to power– were really payback for the same sort of thing imposed by Bismark on France in 1870.
The impulse to take revenge for our fathers’ losses– Jeezus.
Again, thanks for this diary.
Thank you for sharing it with us.
I am so delighted for you. The past slips away so quickly. That was a different world then. Imagine the thoughts of your great-grandfather, having a new family just starting while fighting a world war.
We can get gloomy about our own times, but sometimes it helps to put it all into perspective.
To regain such a connection, that’s rare indeed. Happy smiles here.
Here’s something a posted a while back at ET
This last Spring I was workshopping for a few days with some top Dutch cops, at an off-season De Panne on the Belgian coast just north of Dunkirke.
My grandfather died near Ypres in 1917, so when I wasn’t needed for a day at the hotel in De Panne, I took off for a drive around the area.
It is fairly flat countryside with thick copses of trees in amongst the fields. It is rural – bucolic – the road dotted with small villages and a couple of small towns. There was nothing to remind me of the terrible carnage of nearly 90 years ago. Just piles of root crops and winding tree-lined country roads, and a few cows. Until Ypres – packed with cemeteries.
There is something so moving to walk along the rows of crosses reading the names and the regiments. To realise that it was a such an enormous waste of human life – to be repeated just 21 years later. And yet here we are 60 years after that second European conflict, arguing only about budgets and constitutions.
The people of Europe are at peace. Still proudly nationalistic, still wary of the political elite, but essentially, at the people level, friends. I can visit any one of the 25 countries and find ordinary people that I like and respect. People who are interested in others, people who care, people who get on with their lives, people who look after strangers and want to know what they think.
Those cemeteries at Ypres are tragic. The families who visit those cemeteries still mourn those soldiers, like myself. But their sacrifice was not in vain.
We went there in 1989; it was the first time he had been there since 1944, when he landed two days after D-Day. We went to the American cemetery on the cliffs above the beaches there and it was deeply moving. I had never seen my dad cry before. I can only imagine what horrors and sadness it brought back for him. He used to talk about the war all the time, but never about the killing; he just told stories about his buddies and the little scrapes they got into.
BTW, he was a lifelong Republican, but told me that he didn’t think we had any business going into Iraq, and he thought France was perfectly right to refuse to get involved. I figured since he had saved France’s bacon in 1944, he had a right to an opinion as to whether they were cheese-eating surrender monkeys or not. He thought not.
Exactly. To know war gives you special privileges.
Isn’t it amaziing that most of the currrent administration philosophers have never experienced it first hand ie combat?
I hope you don’t mind my sharing. This is my grandmother and grandfather’s 1917 engagement picture. They met in England during the war, married after the war and returned to his home in Canada. She visited her family back in England only once. He died when I was a baby. She never talked about her life in England, the war, her wedding ever. She was a tough, lovely, bawdy woman.
What a totally cool beautiful photo!!!
Yeah… she looks like trouble! 🙂
What a good lookin’ couple!
I found lots of information about my mothers family and was able to trace several ancestors back to england. I also found that several of the families on my mother’s side had done a lot of research so when I tied into them I found amazingly well fleshed out stories.
One of my X times great grandfather founded the first Baptist Church in CT. Back then they were persecuted for being radicals, by the puritans. They were also abolitionists.
I found one line of people from Ireland. Other than that they were almost all english and scottish.
But my fathers family I can’t get anywhere with. I found all of them on a 1933 (or was it 1930)census. But I can not get past my fathers grandfather.
Just because I am enjoying all these old pictures, here are a couple of my grandparents and my mother.
My Grandparent’s Wedding announcement:
My mother at 17 with my grandparents:
Are there any surviving relatives of those generations you can interview? Do you know if the family were immigrants during that time? If not of English decent, did they possibly change names or change spelling of the last name? One of the other difficulties I find is when folks move from state to state to state within a generation. It becomes incredibly difficult to tie together birth, wedding, childbirth, and death records without some other source to tie them together for you. If you’ve got him in 1930 though I would think there is data out there to take them back to 1920 and beyond… unless they were immigrants then it gets tougher.
Does anyone… cousins, aunts, uncles, etc… perhaps have old family letters or photgraphs that might provide clues? Even small hints of a name or place or a postmark or return address on an old envelope can provide an invaluable clue.
My father was raised in Sedalia MO. But his mother was from Indiana. My Grandfather, I think, traveled as a child from NYS or Pa to MO. But there was a vague story about Oklahoma and native american ancestors I remember hearing.
Unfortunately my father’s family was very poor during the 1930s and he grew up on a farm, lots of alcoholism etc…which caused him to disconnect to some extent from his only surviving brother (they are all gone now, but one brother commited suicide during the depression), moving east and getting a masters in music, becoming urbane and liberal. In the process he failed to keep us connected with his family, which means I don’t even have any way of finding any cousins that might be living.
I just think they were very poor, probably recent immigrants with my great grandfather, or great great GF, coming from Germany during the 1800s. I don’t think they owned property, held public office, ended up on war memorials or any of those things my mothers family did that made them so easily traced.
Sounds like my wife’s paternal grandmother’s family. I’ve managed to fairly accurately piece together the Ridenhour side by the maternal grandmother was a Sponhour (multiple spellings of that) and while I can find some Sponhours in the right places and times I simply cannot tie what little we know of hers into any of the ones that show up in records. They are currently my most frustrating dead-end. I think it is the moving around that really does it though. Usually where I end up with real problems is when someone is born in Massachusetts, marries in New York or Pa, has kids in Ohio and Illinois and ends up in Iowa. Very hard to tie them altogether conclusively.
My grandfather and grandmother (pictured on this page) met and married in central NY. I knew my grandfathers family (the part with the family name anyway) was from CT and traced back to the 1600s. What I didn’t know was they they had spent several generations in PA with in a 50 mile radius of where I live now. I even discovered that many of them are on the Battle of Wyoming Monument near Wilkes Barre. They were among the first small band of europeans who settled the Wyoming valley. In fact my great grandfather was born about half an hours drive from my home, in Susquehanna county.
At that time this area was part of CT, which I did not know.
I was so surprised to find this out as I had felt like my history was all tied up with NY, CT and MA.
I spent months researching my family, pa, Germany area, and was able to go back to 1250…in Europe..Germans have very good records of a lot of this..Ancestory.com was my best site but I used many, many others to put it all together… Now I have stacks of papers and copies of census with family members back to 1790 + a CD full with the ancestory program which is great for putting the info in order. I spent hours pouring over census forms and they can be very informative…I have thought to write a book(s) as I have so much info, but that’s a daunting task..
Maybe I will try starting in Germany and see what happens.
My mother and grandparents;
My Grandparents wedding announcement:
…we will all be just forgotten photos. With our descendents wondering what the frick we did with our lives.
There is no afterlife (IMHO) except in the memories of people that knew you.
So make your life count for something, OK? Make an inspiring memory.
A couple of people have posted little things about an afterlife or the lack of one. I think that everyone can determine their afterlife. Obviously I wouldn’t know this for sure. But it is interesting to speculate.
I think that when a persons body passes from this earth their soul encounters all of the people that they might have had contact with or had some impact on. If a person was like some of our officials that run our country, regardless of their wealth and status, when they die, they will be subject to all of the souls that they impacted. The last two sentences were horrible grammatical examples, please forgive me!
So, with the idea in mind that we will have contact with all of the souls that we had an impact on, think about what a Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc. might be encountering right now.
I have a hard time with the concept of heaven and hell as told by the christian faith in which I was raised. I think most of these concepts were told in order to control people. I mean no disrespect to anyone who may read this post, so please don’t be offended. This is just my 2 cents worth about what I think happens when someones body passes from earth.