South Florida Sun Sentinal has an interesting column.
VFW vets in a red state don’t give Bush the time of day! I remember a diary a few days ago by Cold Fusion who wrote about a Bushie friend that turned. Comments made there were enthusiastic about wing-nuts turning one-by-one (or two-by-two, heh). Now it’s your average vet.
more below:
“Does it have to be so loud”???? At a VFW while the President speaks? Dominos! Yes, key supporters of Bat-Shit Loopy are ignoring him! more:
Now, if you’re the president and vet’s are saying this about you…your shit is weak!
From Ted Anderson, 73, a Korean War veteran and former police chief in New Jersey: “We still have thousands of troops in the [demilitarized zone] in Korea 50 years after the fact. It’s going to be the same thing 50 years from now in Iraq.”
The greatest generation and the forgotten war guys see the folly of Iraq. These were guys (and gals) who were Dubya’s base for a strong national defense. They don’t sound so supportive now, but to me a more patriotic.
Howard Fay, a former prisoner of war in Vietnam, ladled meatballs in the kitchen.
“I don’t like this war at all,” he said. “Saddam wasn’t doing anything to us. The one we should have been going after with everything is Osama bin Laden.”
Bush invoked bin Laden and Sept. 11 in his speech, stressing the non-Iraqi “terrorists” who have congregated in Iraq to make the country “a central front in the war on terror.”
Said Anderson, who spent nine years in the Navy and Marines: “They just play up on the fear. It used to be the domino theory and stopping communism. There was a picture, The Russians Are Coming, The Russians are Coming. Now it’s `The Terrorists are Coming, The Terrorists are Coming.’ After 9-11, I think we overreacted a little bit. We’re not using our heads.”
These veterans know war is never simple or easy, and they say this president, who never saw combat, overlooked these things in his rush to invade Iraq and install democracy.
“I have no respect for this president,” said Bud Lynch of Hallandale, a Korean War veteran. “He’s just trying to finish Daddy’s job. That’s all this was about. There was no nuclear [expletive] or WMDs to begin with … If it were my son who was being sent over there, I wouldn’t let him go.”
Wow, when the guy spooning out meatballs in the VFW kitchen is pissed (take it from me, I know) you really need to think of resigning. Note red, white, and blue vets are saying that they wouldn’t let their kids go to Iraq.
Said Anderson: “Korea turned out to be B.S., Vietnam was B.S., and Iraq is B.S. It’s all political. All these people are dying in vain … I was in for nine years, so don’t go waving a flag in my face and say I’m not being patriotic.”
Bush heard applause as he finished at Fort Bragg, but there wasn’t a ripple at Post 2500.
“I go to a VA Hospital in Anchorage for my medicine and I’m seeing a lot of new people in there every time,” said Giblock. “We have an Army base and an Air Force base nearby, and they’re getting MedVac’ed back in [from Iraq] all the time.
“I’m seeing people in wheelchairs, people missing limbs, people with burns. That’s the part they don’t show on the news.”
This is it. The vets “get it”. “Don’t wave a flag in my face and tell me that I’m not patriotic”, wow! I am impressed because, as a vet myself, I know these types of folks. They’re really good people but what is common in the VFW is the amount of kool-aid served. It looks like the kool-aid is running out of surger! These are normal folks like Cold Fusion’s friend. I am posting this because I think this is an important indicator of Grand Poobah’s eroding support from some of the most diehard supporters.
AND THIS IS IN A RED STATE!
Tried to embed the link, didn’t work, so here it is:
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/columnists/sfl-mayocol29jun29,0,3018435.column?coll=sfla-news-col
the worm is turning- but still too slow for me.
But thanks for sharing. It is important to note this change in VETs (for truth) thinking.
I read that article this morning, and was thinking of putting up a diary about it, but decided to check on the claim by one of the vets to have been a POW in Vietnam. He doesn’t turn up on any of the lists that I checked.
This is not unusual, and has been going on for decades, and caused no small degree of embarassment at times. when I was involved in VVA, we instituted a rule that anyone in a position to speak for the organization had to bring in their original DD214, and we had several candidates drop out the moment the rule was put in place.
It’s too bad, really, because Mayo wrote a good article, but it will get lost in the criticism of that one questionable assertion. Sigh…
He doesn’t turn up? Well, at least he’s passing out the meatballs!
No really, I didn’t know that you were VVA. VVA just picked up my VA file to represent me to the VA. Thanks for your work there.
I was thinking of writing a ‘good for me’ diary. I finally made contact with my NG XO yesterday from overseas. I am currently in the ING but my one-year limit is up this month so I did not want to be AWOL as I am overseas. He said don’t worry about it, and in fact, the commander has started the MEB process and the XO said that they’re recommending me for a medical discharge as well as a medical retirement since I have over 17 “good” years in. I’m relieved!
As far as the article, I find that it is important that a majority of the vets, not just the “POW”, are feeling this way. That is why I considered it important.
Yeah, it is sad that this entire article will get trashed because of one off-the-wall comment. I would love to be a fly on the wall listening to the contortions that some of them will go through to explain their conversions.
I was in VVA from the beginning in 1979 through about 1986, first as a board member, and then as Secretary and General Counsel. Drifted away when it took a hard right turn after the 1985 convention. Still bounce off the VVA Foundation now and then.
You should be in good hands with their representation at the VA..heh, trained some of their older guys myself. Good luck.
Overseas? Me too: a tiny little rock in the Mediterranean called Gozo.
I hope it doesn’t get trashed, I think it is an important indicator and I am wondering how good those meatballs were!
My new service officer is Richard Baine, out of Philly, maybe you trained him. I hope I am in good hands, as AMVETS seemed a little incompetent to me, or rather too overwhelmed.
Wow, the med, yea…life is good, bro!
and he is in the states right now. I wouldn’t watch the speech so he figured he would get the run down at work the next day but when he got there he found out that nobody else had watched the speech either.
I have a high regard for all that are active – this means their bullshit indicator as well. Seems that, from what you say, active duty is just saying “yea, yea…whatever”. This is a good sign. Please continue to keep us informed about what’s happening in the active world, Tracy. It’s invaluable!.
Again, God bless you husband for returning physically healthy…now to get him to get those nightmares documented in his medical files! I’m serious, the documentation could mean a life-long pension!
When surrounded by so many lies a person can get a little crazed. The internal lie detector keeps going off but everybody keeps smiling and denying. So much confusion has a way of shutting people down I think. I will be here frequently until things in the world improve.
when guys like this are the enemy. And make no mistake, His Nibs will find some way to blame people like him, and me, and you, for the failure in this war.
But it’s not their fault, or mine, or yours. There’s plenty of blame to go around, but none of it belongs on this side of the table.
No military background, so asking to learn. Thanks!
It refers to someone self-important. I figure it’s better than calling the Preznit something like Dipwad, or worse.
It’s also a term in cribbage, but that’s not important right now. 🙂
Fifteen two fifteen four and a pair for eight.
But they’d better speak up louder — and vote differently. When those two things happen, then I’ll be impressed with this kind of conversion story.
Just like exit polls, people are willing to say whatever they think pleases the media in order to bend in the direction the current breeze is blowing. Wanna make a good impresion and be on the winning side.
How about going back to these disgruntled vets and asking them to organize a march on Washingtn? Being the silent majority when there’s a war on and you have an effective voice that can influence public opinion means you must be heard by the sideline silents.
Support our troops means more than magnets.
they don’t have to speak louder. Just one voice, just one vote, can make the differenece. Combined, it can be a tidal wave. I keep thinking about Arlo Guthrie’s “Alice’s Restaurant” where it grows from a madman to a movement. I believe this is happening.
call me optomistic!
the phrase “a day late and a dollar short” comes to mind.
Where were these guys last November when a deserter was running for President against one of their own?
The protypical patriot is the citizen, not the soldier. These guys do not impress me with their patriotism.
Better late than never? Let them form impeachment brigades, and then I’ll call it even.
I’m not sure I understand who your saying push off too. If it’s the VA guys you mean.. well.. are here now I wont push them away just because they were beguiled and naive before. Maybe now they will be a step closer to seeing the world as it is.
If an ex Bush supporter comes to me and tells me that they made a bad choice I for one will say “good for you.” Then start to talk about how to work together to make things right.
Yeah they should have known better, everynone should have, but we’re looking for allies against the extremists. The more the better.. and the VA guys are honest people.
I was simply saying that I’m not impressed when people get the message a tad bit late for it to make any difference. And since we’re talking people who’ve served, I do hold them to a higher standard, since it’s their institution, their shared sacrifice, etc. that’s been dishonored and abused.
Now that they seem to be waking up with the house on fire and halfway burnt to the ground, I think it’s only fair to wait and see if they pick up a bucket and start fighting the blaze before I rush to pin a medal on them.
Paul, I never took it like that. In fact, I understand your point exactly though I don’t agree with it. In one way you are right about vets waking up a little late. On the other hand, better late than never and we’re a force to be reckoned with; among the politicos, with credibility. I always respect people’s opinions who differ from mine, and yours did/does. Nevertheless, I welcome you opinion and I believe that it is important if we’re to get to the truth and make progress.
Peace
I’m sorry, JD, I didn’t realize you were one of the ones who’s still snoozing.
When you say “we’re a force to be reckoned with; among the politicos, with credibility,” obviously you haven’t had to make a VA appointment lately.
You guys are patsies. That’s it. Nothing more. Not until you make yourselves something more.
Actually Paul,
I think you misunderstood me, at least I hope you did by the tone of your comment. I was one who was actually vocal against the Iraq war to my chain of command, to the detriment of my career, when we started to prep for it in October 2001, before most of you even knew what was going on. I believe that I was awake on this subject before most of you as a good ass-chewing from my commander tells me for being vocal and asking questions. I was putting young College Republicans in their place in the fall of 2003 at their rallies on Campus about the coming draft (I believe) and for not signing up when we needed people and manpower for our deployments.
And yes, now that I have a 60% disability rating from the VA which may go up further, I have had to battle the VA with my claims still from 2002. I am still undergoing that process for a PTSD claim. So I have plenty of VA experience.
So although I am still interested in debate, especially from someone like youself on the other side of the arguement (rather than just preaching to the choir), I think we can keep it civil, rational, and logical without refrerring to each other as “fools” and “patsies”, at least I would hope so.
This is the first time I’ve ever been tempted to troll rate someone, but I hope it is only due to a misunderstanding, which occurs often over email.
I’m not trying to attack you personally. I’m just trying to set the bar honestly. And this means judging results, not romantic images–which, I must admit, are beginning to try my patience by now. The Vietnam War was ultimately ended by the troops turning against the war and making it unfightable. That’s what I mean by results. Yes, it’s setting the bar high. But that’s where it belongs.
I wrote about this back in January in a DKos diary, “Collapse of The Military–Vietnam’s Lesson of What’s To Come And Where It Came From”. It began:
In Iraq, a similar (though distinctly different) process seems to already be well under way, as open dissent is increasingly visible–though far more coherent than it was in Vietnam.
The state of collapse was so profound that it is difficult to comprehend today. But a devastating snapshot of it can be found in a 1971 article The Collapse of the Armed Forces by Col. Robert D. Heinl, Jr., which appeared in the Armed Forces Journal, 7 June, 1971.
The article itself begins:
By every conceivable indicator, our army that now remains in Vietnam is in a state approaching collapse, with individual units avoiding or having refused combat, murdering their officers and non commissioned officers, drug-ridden, and dispirited where not near mutinous.
Elsewhere than Vietnam, the situation is nearly as serious.
The picture painted goes on from there. It does not distinguish between breakdown of discipline and the creation of counter-discipline, but very clearly both were in progress. I’m just saying that the picture Heinl paints–basically a true picture of the armed forces in 1971–is a far cry from what you’re describing. One can hope it won’t take that to stop this current madness. But what you’ve described so far darn sure won’t get the job done. What’s got me riled is sentimental romanticization of the troops that only gets in the way.
(And, for the record, I was against the war on terror from the very beginning, say, 1964 when I first found out about our support for Middle East tyrants like the Shah of Iran. We had an Iranian foreign exchange student live with us, which is how I learned for certain at the age of 14 that Vietnam was not just an abberation. I was, naturally, both saddened and horrified by 9/11, but I was not the least bit puzzled or surprised by it, except for the sheer incompetence of domestic air defense.)
OK, that’s fair. I also must conceed to you some of your points, I concur. BTW, I was born two years after your epiphany, in ’66. When I graduated the Army’s Special Forces Qualification course, we had a guest speaker from the OSS. He actually had contact with Ho Chi Min, who requested US help for his nationalist liberation movement. Unfortunately, we were in bed with France and refused him. A determined man, Ho went to Uncle Joe for support, who was more than happy to give it. Mr. Min changed from a nationalist to a communist and the rest is history. Another major fuck-up to add to the list like Iran and Guatamala.
I used to romanticize the military, but with my experience I just can’t anymore. I don’t even watch war movies – as I said on another post, I’ve now have approriated a taste for “chick flicks” such as Three Wedding and a Funeral and Bridget Jones Diary. I’ve told friends, who look at me in disbelief, that I don’t think Saving Private Ryan or Schindler’s List are good movies. For the same point that you made, it sentimentalizes war and the Holocaust, respectfully. So I truly appreciate what you say about that and concur with you about the sentamentationalising of military culture and war. Believe me, I have constant nightmares about what I may have done but have no closure as to be sure…something I imagine I will live with for the rest of my life.
It is the romanticisation of war that gets people to enlist. I do not believe that we have the military that we did in VN, I do believe that it is better. Nevertheless it is being destroyed by the numbnuts in charge.
My point was that the die-hard supporters are starting to change and that I believe that is finally a good thing. You point, as I understand it, is that they should’ve been against this in the beginning and that you are not impressed with such a late turn-around. You are right, but being the optimist that I am, I still think better late than never and maybe now we can get the hell out.
Thank you for explaining your response.
Peace
I agree “better late than never,” provided that the late-comers do something to make up for missing the boat. At this point in time, working 24/7 for impeachment would fill the bill.
Unsurprisingly, your OSS guy lied about Ho, even when seemingly coming clean.
Ho Chi Minh turned to the Communists back in the 1920s, after Woodrow Wilson turned him down. Wilson talked “self determination for all nations,” but, Southern racist that he was, obviously didn’t have Vietnam in mind. A disappointed Ho–whom Wilson would not even meet–then spent a couple of years looking for other international allies. He ended up with the Communists because they were the only ones interested in supporting his cause.
Fast forward to WWII. The French had surrendered to the Japanese in Vietnam, and were collaborating with them, Vichy-style. Ho Chi Minh was still fighting for self-determination. The OSS took him on as an agent–Agent 19. After the war, field OSS officers recommended that we support him. They were vetoed.
We also allied with the Japanese collaborators in Korea. But that’s a whole ‘nother story.
that is very interesting. Is there a book that I can read about that? It seems that our OSS guy was telling history but was a few years short from what you are saying. I really would like to get to the bottom of it.
The Vietnam Wars: 1945-1990. Despite the subtitle, it has an excellent, if short, discussion of Ho’s political evolution up through the end of WWII. I’ve read dozens of books on Vietnam, but this one remains the best single historical overview, IMHO. There are, of course, many other excellent books that are superior in other ways. And some important information has come to light since it was written. But the basic historical framework is better presented by Young than anyone else I’m familiar with.
Thanks, I will definately pick it up.
I hope this is the begining of a wave of change, maybe it just needs some wind behind it to make it larger, and with more force.
As for some of the people not showing up on the list of vets, you must keep one thing in mind. Some of us did not exist then, or now, on paper. Just one more of the government cover ups that has been around for a long, long time. I personally know quite a few that did not, nor ever will show up on the paper work.
Why did these people support Bush last year? Maybe they did, and maybe they did’nt. We all KNOW the election was a fraud, both of them. The spin from the SwiftBoat Vets, c’mon, most of them were proved to be liars, what else would you expect from this administration, the truth?? LMAO
This is true, what you said. A very good friend of mine and former O&I intel sergeant on my team is a good example. I never knew it until the Smadge announced it at a formation: SGM read in the back of a hoo-ah book, which listed awardees from the book, that my friend had the DSC. Fucked-up thing? My friend never knew he had it either! (but his name is inscibed on a wall at Camp MacKall, NC).
Friend (avoiding the use of his name because I don’t have his permission) was MACVSOG, leading his platoon of Montagneyards <sp>, and unkowingly inserted into the middle of an NVA regimental perimeter (major fuck-up!). This was the Rolling Thunder days. Well, he finally showed me his scars on his legs all ate up from Katyusha rocket shrapnel while he and his guys were hiding in the water of a swamp or something for days, trying to E&E (but they were surrounded within this perimeter). He finally said fuck it once they got commo back and called in the B52s. He said that there is nothing on this earth like it!
Well, come to find out that he was originally put in for the CMH but it was downgraded by an admiral (and he was Army!). Supposedly they are re-evaluating it at the Pentagon but he has to be awarded the DSC first. Typical pentagon shit, it’s stuck in the bureaucracy. But friend doesn’t care, he has his farm in WV and is satified with life.
He’s still in the Guard, the old fuck, and now out of the country. I hear though the rumor mill he has his own A-Team now. He always wanted me to be his team leader if I ever went to the 18A course, which I considered a great honor (ok man, but YOU run the team! I’ll just sign the paperwork and go masturbate in the corner!)
I hope he gets his CMH eventually, he deserves it (and the DSC for that matter). Plus all of the backpay for the income taxes he’s paid since the effective date – wow!
I also hope he’s okay where ever he is, haven’t heard from him in a while.
I hope he fares well, and comes home in ONE peice ; )
I agree that there are folks whose names and/or activities don’t appear on the records – have met and ultimately was able to verify several of them – but they are not the ones who would later disclose information to a reporter in a VFW hall. I think it likely that this guy was talking out of his ass.
I think that you are right that most of these guys did support Bush and now are in a buyer’s remorse stage with all the bad press about the Republicans opposing adequate veteran benefits. What a difference it would have made if they had just wised up earlier…
Very valid points, and I agree. I think not only the vets, but hopefully enough republicans are starting to rethink the parties “ideals” ; )