Do liberals want the United States to succeed in Iraq? A couple of weeks ago Tom Friedman suggested we didn’t. How does one even address this loaded question?
First I’ll say what I want for Iraq, then I’ll talk about what I want for America.
I want Iraq to use the next six-seven months to craft and ratify a constitution, and to hold elections that are as fair and representative as possible. I think Bush wants this too.
I want Iraq to develop the police and security forces to protect their own citizenry from attack. I fervently hope that Bush wants this too.
But after this base of agreement, my idea of success diverges from BushCo. First of all, I am deeply pessimistic about the prospects for Iraq to accomplish the above goals in the allotted time. But my disagreement goes much deeper.
:::flip:::
It starts with the real cause of 9/11. As the story goes, 19 Arab terrorists killed 3,000 American civilians because the terrorists ‘hated freedom’. Well, that’s a juvenile characterization of what causes violent hatred of America.
When the Iranians seized the American Embassy and held Americans hostage, they did it because we had fomented a coup in 1953, and then built a strong commercial and military relationship with the Shah. The Shah was overthrown for tyrannical behavior. He wasn’t overthrown because ordinary Iranians hated the freedom the Shah provided.
When the Libyans stormed and destroyed the American Embassy in Benghazi, on June 5, 1967, they didn’t do it because they hated freedom. They did because the Arab-Israeli War had begun, and they had been convinced by propaganda broadcasts that the United States was bombing Cairo.
The famous Afghan mujahideen didn’t fight the Soviets for freedom alone:
Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998
Question: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs [“From the Shadows”], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter. You therefore played a role in this affair. Is that correct?
Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.
Q: Despite this risk, you were an advocate of this covert action. But perhaps you yourself desired this Soviet entry into war and looked to provoke it?
B: It isn’t quite that. We didn’t push the Russians to intervene, but we knowingly increased the probability that they would.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn’t believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don’t regret anything today?
B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?
B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war?
Q: Some stirred-up Moslems? But it has been said and repeated Islamic fundamentalism represents a world menace today.
B: Nonsense! It is said that the West had a global policy in regard to Islam. That is stupid. There isn’t a global Islam. Look at Islam in a rational manner and without demagoguery or emotion. It is the leading religion of the world with 1.5 billion followers. But what is there in common among Saudi Arabian fundamentalism, moderate Morocco, Pakistan militarism, Egyptian pro-Western or Central Asian secularism? Nothing more than what unites the Christian countries.
Translated from the French by Bill Blum
Jimmy Carter signed off on turning Afghanistan from a poor country into the biggest hellhole on Earth. How could your average Afghan not resent that cruel and cynical decision? We didn’t bring the Afghans freedom from atheistic communism, we enticed the Soviets into invading and then abandoned the Afghans after they had served our purpose.
Not only that, but we intentionally radicalized the Muslim world in an effort to punish the Russians.
After the fall of the Shah and the taking of American hostages, we were understandably angry with the new Iranian government. So, we cynically encouraged Saddam Hussein to make war on them, and then we kept mum while he committed atrocities against Iran and the Kurds.
When that war had run its course, we turned Saddam into the world’s greatest monster and imposed permanent sanctions and no-fly zones over Iraq.
All the while, we were busy turning Saudi princes into some of the richest people on Earth, while taking their money to cover the cost of covert operations (in some cases illegal) that Congress was unwilling to appropriate money for.
Of course, we paid for them anyway when the Saving and Loans all collapsed and BCCI was exposed.
When Usama bin-Laden, in 1998, declared war on American civilians, he didn’t justify himself by arguing that he disliked freedom. He said that our foreign policy in the Middle East was to keep all Arab countries splintered and weak, and that to accomplish this we were willing to see thousands of Iraqis die as a direct result of sanctions. He also accused us of favoring Israel in their dispute with the Palestinians.
The first question we should have asked after 9/11, (after we calmed down a little), was whether there were any policies that we could change that would lesson the hatred of our country, and the resulting risk to our citizens.
Bush eventually realized that the jihadist movement was a reaction to our cynical and hypocritical policies. And he talked about bringing democracy to a region that we had traditionally paid handsomely to subjugate.
But that was, and is, mere rhetoric. It’s true that a democratic Iraq, and recent elections in Lebanon and Palestine, could be a catalyst to beneficial reforms. But they have done nothing to ease tensions in the occupied territories, and they have paid mere lip service to reforms in Egypt and Saudi Arabia. Moreover, our strategy for creating the first and most crucial piece of Wolfowitz’s wet dream has been inept, pathetic and counterproductive. Iraq is in shambles.
The logical conclusion from 9/11 should have been that we could no longer pursue a Cold War policy in the Middle East. We needed to back democratic reforms, and, in order to cope with the threat to energy supplies that an unpredictable period of social revolution might cause, we needed to work with a laser focus on alternative energy, and energy independence.
Next, if we felt that Saddam had to go, we should have explained why. We never should have lied about the intelligence and we never should have used the United Nations inspection process as a cynical ploy to entrap Saddam into giving us a casus belli for war. It was illegal and immoral and it was unfair to our allies and to the institution of the United Nations.
So, I want what is best for the Iraqi people. And we need to have some success in the upcoming months in order to prevent Iraq from becoming a failed state. I don’t want more bloodshed on either side.
But I also don’t want Bush to think that his policies are rational, moral, effective, or suitable to replication elsewhere.
America is at it’s best when it fights for other people’s civil rights and right to self-determination. We are at our worst when we sell-out the democrats and liberals so we can control valuable resources. Bush’s plan is not sincere. Everyone knows this. And it makes it very difficult to root for his unqualified success.
it will be on par with the “sucess” of a broken clock – which is “right” at least twice everyday. Oy.
The moment we dropped the first bomb, which began in the secret air war leading up to the war, was the moment we destroyed the notion of “success”, unless you believe in the very Machiavellian notion that the ends justifies the means.
Do our so-called principles and values justify the taking of innocent life? I have a hard time with that one.
Your statement: I want Iraq to use the next six-seven months to craft and ratify a constitution, and to hold elections that are as fair and representative as possible. I think Bush wants this too.
I’m not sure that I agree that this is what Bush actually wants. A truly democrat Iraq could be a foil to the west’s, specifically, the U.S.’s, economic exploitation of its resources.
The U.S. certainly has a long history of blundering in the Middle East. As much as I respect a lot of what Carter has done, his covert operations in Afghanistan are pretty horrible to contemplate.
I, too, wonder what would happen if Iraq really became an independent Democracy. It is not inconceivable they they would form alliances with “bad” countries, that they would demand reparations from the U.S., that they would refuse permanent U.S. military bases, that they would become a civil-rights-abusing theocracy.
Just think of the legacy Bush would have created — incalculable suffering but questionable results.
There is no way to predict what the will of the Iraqi people will be. I do wish them the best.
Since I believe that for the Bush regime, the success of their agenda, the true nature of their agenda in Iraq means the perpetuation and the spread of war and instability throughout the MidEast, my belief as a life-long liberal is that in order for the US to succeeed in Iraq, the Bush plan must fail.
I believe that the longer our military presence remains there the worse things will get for Iraqis and for the world at large. And so the closest definition I can describe for our “success” in Iraq is that we’ll be successful as soon as we stop making things worse for the Iraqis. and I don’t believe we can do that until we’re withdrawing.
I’m not a knee jerk pacifist. As a species I realized we’re not yet civilized enough to not need war sometimes to halt the brutal aggression of others. But in this war, we are the aggressors, and it is we, (the Bush regime), that needs to be stopped.
We’ve done incalculable damage in Iraq, and clearly the situation in Afghanistan is deteriorating as well. The callous irresponsibility of our own government in all this ensures we’ll be creating more problems, (and more enemies), the longer we’re militarily active in the Middle East.
And of course, more than any other administration in the history of the US, the Bush gang have disgraced our nation and shit upon the noble principles at the foundation of our existence.
Friedman’s comment is, to me, akin to saying something like, “Liberals don’t want oak trees to become maples,” or “Liberals don’t want birds to become cows.”
What he doesn’t get and has never admitted, because he so desperately wants his nice dreams to come true, is that many liberals understand and have understood from the beginning that oaks can’t be maples, birds can’t be cows, and Iraq most can’t become a democracy–at least not on Bush’s time table, not in these circumstances, given its own history and also given the nefarious characters of the people who are driving this war.
I can think a a couple of oak trees that are planted in places where maples would look better. I used to be married to a cattle rancher and I’m pretty sure he’d be happy if birds could turn into cows. But those things are not going to happen, not because liberals don’t want them to, but because they can’t.
It’s not a question of wanting Bush to succeed — he cannot. The Bush Administation have already shown they do not have the competence to “succeed.”
That said, what I want for Iraq is for them to get us out of their country. Go to other nations, ask for help. Get other countries to help stabilize the mess we’ve made.
What I want for America is to see voters in 2006 and 2008 put Democrats in office, to get this country back on track. The Republicans had their chance. They’ve failed miserably.
must come from within.
that is true of countries and people. We cannot go into another country and perform an Extreme Makeover and then expect them not to tear it apart when we’re done. They didn’t ask for it and they didn’t pay for it and we are remodling their country to our culture, not theirs. ‘Nuff said.
but thanks for bringing it to our attention. Nice analysis.
How do we define success? If success means that Iraq becomes a stable nation, then of course liberals want the mission to succeed.
But this whole war thing has never been about the Iraqi people; it’s about Bush having a hard-on for Saddam:
— President George W. Bush, in March 2002
Why the hard-on? Freud would have a lot to say about this. The symbolic slaying of the father-figure is the primary reason for this war. Revenge is also factor. Saddam did try to kill his father. Jesus! I know I’d want to kill any son-of-a-bitch that went after my dad; it’s a perfectly natural response.
But The United States of America and its armed forces do not exist so that they can be used as the personal plaything of a man who still has the emotional maturity of a high-schooler. Presidents are supposed to rise above any personal gripes he or she might have and instead do what’s best for the nation as a whole.
Which brings me to this point: Bush believes he is doing the right thing for the nation. The only problem is that he thinks he is the nation. Bush seems to believe that the president leads and the nation follows, that whatever the president wants the nation should want too, when in reality it’s exactly the opposite: the people lead and the president follows. I realize I’m over-simplifying things a bit, but you get my drift. It’s too bad Bush has this ass-backwards.
It’s also extremely dangerous.
So, for the record: I’m a liberal who wants Bush to fall flat on his face — as he deserves — mendacious little fuck that he is. I also want the mission in Iraq to succeed, and desperately so. A US failure in Iraq would be an unmitigated disaster.
Wanting Bush to fail and wanting Iraq to succeed are two different things, though it’s difficult to separate the two at this point in time.
A robust UN presence in Iraq which incorporates the armies of the various Arabic-speaking nations could provide stability to the region and allow the US and Britain to pullout quietly.
The Bolton nomination is proof that this idea would never see the light of day even if it were guaranteed to be successful.
A person who consistently does the wrong thing in spite of evidence to the contrary needs an intervention.
Is there a Betty Ford-style clinic where we can send those who are drunk with power?
and written Booman. And to the posters, you all make me proud. The words and thoughts and analysis here should be published in newspapers across the country. The spin on our own words and when the right tries to portray us as traitors, is Unpatriotic. Any dissent or difference of opinion takes away the rights of all Americans regarding Freedom of Speech. Each day we are subjected to the same old rehtoric and propaganda from this administration. Just go here http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/04/AR2005070400925.html?referrer=email&
amp;referrer=email to read the same old talking points and the new titla for this illegal occupation, “The War for Independence”.
difficult to root for his unqualified success.
This administration does not govern, it rules. It not only doesn’t accept suggestions, it refuses to allow anyone who might differ to enter the same room with the President.
Root or boo, it has no effect on the outcome–our only role is spectating.
How does one even address this loaded question?
By asking the right one, the one you ask near the end: What is best for the Iraqi people?
Friedman, among many, many, others asks the irrelevant question. Frustrating at best to be constantly bombarded with America-centric “news” which treats the Iraqi people as an afterthought.
How to reach to the goal of a sovereign, independent Iraq? Top of the list of things to get done is a full audit of all expenditures. Over 8 billion CPA dollars unaccounted for? Translate that using the NPP “Cost of War” calculator, then heavily publicize the trade-offs. Following the money would be a good start, and is a politically unassailable action.
Expose the graft and corruption as part of the overall effort to help Iraq rebuild. Where is the outrage over CPA insistence on contracts giving away Iraqi’s resources? Why hasn’t Dean publicly asked for all contracts to be re-opened to the wider global business community? To simply say: show me.
Rather than generate a long list, let’s just agree that absent a loyal, questioning opposition, the task becomes near-impossible. Doubly so when that opposition seems to be lacking any sort of cohesive policy towards Iraq.
I want there to be success in Iraq in that I want Peace there and a good government in place. I don’t want it to be Bush’s success. I don’t want Bush or any of his people to be able to say they had one bit of impact on any success in Iraq. Does that mean that liberals don’t want success in Iraq? I want all kinds of success for Iraq. I want the United States to help them in any way we can. I just can’t bare having that obnoxious, killer Bush take any kind of credit for it. How could he possibly after all the damage we have done. Maybe he could take credit for repairing some of the damage he has done, but of course that would be seen by the American people as winning the war and being a success rather than just bringing the country back to prewar shape.
Success in Afghanistan
Afghanistan pipeline
Success in Iraq
It depends on the definition of “success.” In both countries, securing the oil and establishing military bases are the goals. Let’s stop buying the propaganda that the Bush administration cares about democracy in the Middle East.
This is my thoughts on the matter also.
I think, as far as the administration is concerned, Iraq has been a grand success. This was never about establishing a democratic catalyst in the middle east (if that were the case, we would have started with our buddies the Saudi royals). Remember how often our administration’s rhetoric about our reasons for going to war in Iraq changed? Sadaam has weapons of mass de…er, no…Sadaam aided al Qae…er, no freedom and liberty for Iraqis. Remember how often we heard, “We’re turning the corner in Iraq.” Well, as my tagline over at kos says, “If you turn enough corners, all you’re doing is walking in circles.” I believe this war was about several things I shall expound upon below:
At any rate, I would submit that one has to look at what the administration’s ideas of success are to really answer this loaded question. I would have to say that, from their standpoint, it has been a smashing success. And, well, if a few thousand of our troops and a few hundred thousand innocent Iraqis get killed in the process…oh well, you want to make an omelet, you have to break a few eggs. It’s pragmatic indifference at its finest and I, for one, am sickened by it. I never thought I would ever be ashamed of my country. I served it with honor and distinction and, until recently, was proud to do so. My heart has grown heavy though as many of my friends have come home in flag-draped coffins or permanently disfigured (all for lies and greeed) and I watch the country that I love condone acts of such barbarity that it turns my stomach. I couldn’t help but ruminate about this at length on our nation’s birthday yesterday and it cast a pall over the whole day.
other than the phoney ones put out by the Bush admin.
I would only add that Saddam was trading oil for Euros and that was more important than “he tried to kill my daddy.” Big deal, didn’t daddy try to kill Saddam 100 times over?
Then there was the important image problem for the inept Bush. He had to become a ‘war president’ and ‘a commander-in-chief.’ What irony, a pampered AWOL during the Vietnam war and a president who neglected counter-terrorism and security warnings in the summer preceeding the 9/11 attacks.
The fall of the house of Bush has begun and you will have your country back in three short years. Democrats have to be in damage control against the Bush admin for that time.
You’re absolutely correct in listing Sadaam’s transfer of the Iraqi oil industry to the Euro…that was a major factor also. I hope you are correct regarding us getting our country back but, I despair to think how much more damage these criminals will do to the institutions of the country I love in that time period. Here’s hoping that we can get something (DSM, Plame affair, etc) to stick in the coming months and it, effectively, handcuffs them into the sphere of true lame-duckery. Alas, I’m not going to hold my breath…they’ve proven to be made of teflon so far.
from Bush’s opposition. It’s an untenable and urgent
situation and obviously the Bush admin has no solutions.
My simple-minded solution is:
Troops retreat to the US military bases in Iraq.
Send money to Iraq.
Since $8 billion, $8 billion, I say, has been stolen, lost, squandered in Iraq, the money should be carefully distributed and accounted for.
In 2006, Democrats can start taking back some power from the Republicans, then a landslide in 2008.
How can you succeed when you don’t even have a plan for success? If it was a success in George Bush’s mind, I tend to think WW IV would be started in earnest.
hmmm … how does that saying go
If at first you don’t suceed … redefine your definition of success
If at first you don’t suceed … then skydiving is not for you
If at first you don’t suceed … blame the liberals
my favorite: “If at first you don’t suceed,
keep on suckin’ till ya do suck seed!” – Curly Howard
Right.
And we privatized and sold off Iraq’s economy during the occupation, which is a war crime under the Geneva Conventions.
Iraq is Latin America on crack.
I don’t support Bush’s vision of ‘success.’