If Karl Rove is proven to be the primary source that revealed the identity of Valerie Plame Wilson, should he be put to death?
Let’s consider what Mayor Giuliani had to say about John Walker Lindh:
Prosecutors, he said, should consider pursuing the death penalty against John Walker Lindh.
Lindh, 20, a native of the San Francisco, California, area, was discovered after he survived a prisoner uprising at Mazar-e Sharif last month. He and several hundred non-Afghan Taliban troops had surrendered to Northern Alliance forces days before they staged a deadly and unsuccessful prisoner revolt at a compound in northern Afghanistan.
“I don’t know all the facts of the case, but I certainly think that serious consideration should be given to the maximum penalty that the law allows,” Giuliani said.
“When you commit treason against the United States of America, particularly at a time when the U.S. is in peril of attack and further attack, I believe the death penalty is the appropriate remedy to consider.”
CNN
No one disputes that we were at war when Plame’s identity was leaked. As for our being in ‘peril of attack’, the FBI released a terror warning on March 6th, 2003, and the Defense Intelligence Agency issued a terror alert on June 21st, 2003. Ambassador Wilson wrote his column on July 6th and Novak exposed his wife on July 14th.
Obviously, we were most concerned about attacks using high explosives or weapons of mass destruction. Valerie Plame was employed by the Central Intelligence Agency to work on nuclear proliferation. Shortly before her cover was blown we had uncovered a massive proliferation network run by Pakistani scientist, A.Q. Khan. It’s quite possible that Valerie Plame had a hand in uncovering that network. But even if she wasn’t part of that investigation, the unique value of such agents should have been clear to Rove.
Did Rove commit treason? John Walker Lindh was accused of ‘levying war’ against the United States. Rove would presumably be convicted of giving our enemies ‘Aid and Comfort’.
So, I have to assume that Giuliani would fully support the execution of Karl Rove. That is, provided he has a fair trial and is convicted.
No?
had some interesting comments about the whole Rove/Plame situation on Countdown last night. I wish I’d DVRed it so I could transcribe the interview. 🙁
What’s interesting is that when it comes to involvement with a grand jury investigation is that there are three levels. The lowest is when you’re a “witness” — if that’s the case, you’re pretty much home free. The second is “object”, meaning that they’re looking at you but you’re not in trouble yet. If you’re a “subject”, you’re pretty much screwed.
The question is, what level is Rove at? Right now according to Dean, he’s probably at the “object” level, not a “subject” yet but could become one depending on testimony (which is why Time reporter Cooper may still be needed to testify even after his employer turned over the notes).
Dean also mentioned that while Rove probably wouldn’t be accused/convicted of strict treason under the act that protects intelligence agents’ identities, what might get him (and, he seemed to imply, others in the Bush Administration) was “conspiracy to defraud the US Government”, which is basically what brought down the Nixon Administration.
I do remember the one word that Dean used to describe the actions of the Bush Administration: “a travesty.”
Oh, and I wouldn’t put Rove to death…but that’s only because I’m opposed to the death penalty…
does post transcripts within 24 hours; they don’t have last night’s show up yet, but I’ll keep checking. If they have the Dean interview I’ll post a link and key excerpts…
the Olbermann interview. It’s target, subject and witness. Rove is a subject, and may soone be a target.
You may be against the death penalty, but Guiliani is not. I’m against the death penalty, except for treason. I’m not convinced the Plame leaker is really guilty of treason. They are guilty of being totally irresponsible, but probably not of giving aid and comfort to our enemies.
But who knows?
I’m getting grand juries confused with grammar, most likely. That’s what I get for posting at 5:55am PDT.
Hmmm, thinking of “target” — anyone up to Photoshopping a Target logo on Rove’s backside? (Paging Bood Abides…)
Another interesting comment Dean made (paraphrase) was about the fact that whoever blew VP’s cover is a criminal who has undermined the US government, and this person appears to be a government official who works in the White House and is being paid by US tax dollars to serve the American people.
Dean commented about how ironic it was that this coward would let two reporters go to prison to hide his crimes. He said this is the kind of thing they do in gangland, and in the Mafia, and it would be tragic to think that our government officials have sunk this low.
P.S. I don’t believe in capital punishment, either. How about extraordinary rendition to, say… Mars?
I too saw the Dean interview. That also struck me when he said, that whomever the source was is a coward for letting these two “journalists” go to jail. That is why I truly believe it is Rove. He believes he is invincable and has gotten away with his evil, lying manipulations that no one would dare touch him.
Booman, as I sit here reading your site this am before getting ready for work, I have had this very uneasy feeling in my soul for a few days now. It is something I just can not put my finger on. It probably is just the weather and me being tired; however, I feel there is more to my feeling than what I want to believe there is.
Yes, I think he should. I have always felt that bush should be considered treasonous
for his evading of his duty in the guard too. Look at what that got me…;o(
I want to fully believe that our country will uphold any and all laws in this case, but I feel deep down they will get by with it again and he and others will just slide by with not one damn thing on their crime.
I think basically time will tell and when we are coming upon the 06 elections, things will get very hot in the kitchen for many. If for some ugly reason when karl baby does not get his due, then I truly hope he gets enough bad publicity that he is muted and castrated to the point he is irreverent in his rhetoric . Of course, I would wish he get his due, ie, jail time, But if he is proven
the one (which I think he is) then they should throw the book at him like your stance in your piece. Sadly tho, they think their feces does not smell and they can do whatever, whenever. :o(
I’m kidding. It’s a rhetorical point. Rove should do hard time. But execution for the Plame leak is over the top.
It’s just that using Guiliani’s logic, Rove, if guilty, should be hanged.
I want to think that rove is going to get his time in prison; however, I think they will somehow find a way out of this mess, as always.
I am not kidding. I normally am not for death, but when they ahve done to our country and citizens, it not beyond my belief, there of a death sentence placed to hold for life in prison. It would make it much harder in the future for someone to do such a thing. I think this administratin has put our country in way big jepordy with what all they have been doing. I hope this all comes out in the wash and we get another watergate but only bigger and they take down the whole bush dyansty. Every last one of them!!!! And everyone attached to them in the slightest way! AM I BEING TOOOOOO REDICULIOUS THIS MORNING?
No, jailtime is an appropriate punishment for many members of BushCo. and very few, if any, of them are likely to do jailtime. Pardons will be their last line of defense.
So, you are no being ridiculous. But you might try seeing the humor in my post 🙂
don’t wingnuts argue that capital punishment is supposed to be an effective deterrent? I’ve never believed it was, but that’s because it’s seldom been applied to people like Rove, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzales [does this list ever end?!) In this case, I think future elected and non-elected officials alike might actually be deterred from committing treason and violating international laws if they had the image of several dozen Bush officials swinging from the gallows emblazened in their evil little minds.
All I can say is, if they do all swing, it better f*cking be televised!
If we are to sustain ourselves on the premice that we are striving to rid the world of WMD then we must take this very seriously. Of course this does not mean the bush administration….this is why the bolton man is I think involved in this one too. I think they talk a bit talk but do not walk the walk. They are the true hypoctits of all time.
Just think of the ramification that this single incident might have on the whole process of covert actions for our country. As a whole, it is very criminal and should be treated as such. Build a whole new prison for them all…It would take one to place them all in it!!! <snark> But there is going to be a lot of ppl involved in this one, IMO.
Death for treason? No, that only applies for non-Republicans. 😉
I also saw Olbermann and saw Dean speak about the viability of conspiracy to defraud charges. Proving knowledge of Plame’s status will likely be difficult.
or make him enlist. Make him experience some of his evil doings that he had a big hand in! Oh and make sure he takes his puppet George with him!
In my little mind, I understand that we must be at war to enact the death penalty for treason.
Despite the propaganda, Congress hasn’t declared war. War on terrorism: who is “terrorism” and how do we declare war on this person or nation?
Ergo, legally, we are not at war. Therefore it seems the death penalty is moot.
Any lawyers have any input on that? I know it is a simple argument. Anyone care to expound?
Death for Rove would be too kind. I want to see this whole criminal administration suffer the humility of being locked up in a Federal Prison system. Oh such sweet dreams.
My thoughts exactly! I think life without chance of parole in a maximum security prison for Rove and the whole damn lot of torture and death loving meglomaniacs would be just and fair.
But, as we all know, rich people rarely see the inside of a cell and particularly not rich white men, and surely not rich white politicians.
I believe it is our duty as citizens of the USA to ensure the laws of the land are enforced NOW!
the right of ad-hoc enforcement of laws, UN resolutions and economic theology to itself. It’d be pretty grumpy if any Fodder Units horned in on its privileges.
The relevant statute is 50 USC 421. Provides 3, 5, and 10-year sentences depending on the circumstances. OTOH, perjury also enters the mix.
“Unless, that is, the real concern of special counsel Patrick Fitzgerald isn’t just the leak but possible perjury by a senior Bush administration official.”
“But every good prosecutor hates perjury above all. And on its face, this case raises the possibility that one of the senior administration officials who talked with Cooper or Miller has denied doing so, under oath.”
[Ignatius, WaPo, 5/13/05].
That we were at war.
The War on Terror isn’t a war, it’s propaganda. It’s window dressing for massive assaults on human decency and committing crimes against humanity.
it’s true that ‘major combat operations’ had just been declared as over. But I doubt the aircraft carrier speech can be used as an affirmative defense.
We were at war in Iraq, and still are. The lack of a formal Declaration of War is also probably not a defense.
His defense is that he was not working as an agent of ‘our enemies’, but merely aided them inadvertently.
On the other hand, if anyone got killed as a result of the leak, and Fitzgerald can provide evidence of that, we have a whole other ballgame.
against one’s self? Because all “treason” means is being against the proto-fascists. By the working definition, Rove cannot be a traitor.
for moving his lover into the Governor’s mansion while he was still married. That’s why we never hear about him any more in the media.
Some day he may Repent and be Saved; at that point, sure, there’s no doubt he’d be a leading advocate of the death penalty for any Bush Administration figure caught committing treason.
Then I woke up.
But now it seems that Judith Miller may be more guilty, except I can’t figure out how reporters are in position to out CIA operatives to government officials.
I can’t figure out how reporters are in position to out CIA operatives to government officials.
But Judy isn’t just a “reporter” — she’s the Queen of All Iraq!
Plus, if she thought nothing of helping her chubby pal Chalabi sell intelligence to Iranian officials, I doubt her conscience would be much troubled by passing classified information onto Americans.
I don’t believe in the death penalty for sentient beings.
However, I am not sure that Karl Rove falls into that category, so there may be an acceptable exception.
I do think he should get very hard jail time and/or be drafted and sent to a place like Fallujah without adequate body armor. And stop-lossed from getting out.
Assuming for a moment that Our Karl is guilty not only of the Plame leak, but of all the dirty tricks he’s been accused of over the years…
… the man’s already dead. He has no soul to kill. All we would achieve is the creation of a martyr for the Right.
I would instead sentence him to continue being Karl Rove. And place his flesh behind bars for as long as it lives.
(Yes, I did see that you were only making rhetorical points. So am I.)
Although I am opposed to the death penalty, I am glad to see this question being asked.
Ever since the Plame Outing Story broke, I’ve been saying that if anything remotely like it had happened during the Clinton administration, there would be incessant howls of “Treason!” and demands that this one and that one be hanged — quite literally.
Instead, this case plods along as though it were insurance fraud or something. The media care that two of their own might go to jail, but never seem to have grasped the importance of what actually happened. Even Novak seems to be getting a free pass, whatever his secret deal with the prosecutors.
While calls for hanging might be extreme, I don’t think we should be afraid to call this treason.
I, for one, think that the death penalty would be letting any of these crooks off too easy (and am philosophically opposed to capital punishment in general). As someone mentioned upthread, putting those of Rove’s ilk (stature) whithin the Republican party to death would make second-rate martyrs out of them. On the other hand, I don’t think we should stick them in some “Club-Fed” type prison to serve out a sentence in relative comfort. I think they should be put into the general population(s) of the meanest, nastiest prison systems in the land. Think about how well Rove would fair in the High-Security wing of Sing-Sing or Chino…this, imho, is the fate that should befall him and anyone else complicit in the crimes of this criminal administration…either that, or he should be sent to Tikrit, Ramadi, or Fallujah with nothing but a sign on his back telling people (in Arabic of course) who, exactly he is and how he was responsible for the illegal war of aggression but then we’re back to talking of him being put to death again because I bet he wouldn’t last 20 minutes under those circumstances.
I’m not a big supporter of the death penalty, although I think it has its place (and this is neither the time nor the place to debate it). However, there’s one likely outcome of all this that no one has discussed yet. I debated putting it into a diary, but I thought it would be too . . . much, somehow.
I was on vacation at the hotel when I saw the story that Rove may well have been the one who outed Plame, and the thought that immediately flashed into my mind was: The man will never do jail time. If this gets close enough to him that the US Marshals are sent over to escort him out in handcuffs, he will get a phone call with a simple message: “They’re on their way over.” He will then reach for his keys, use them to unlock the top left hand drawer of his desk, and pull out a revolver with one bullet in it.
The Marshals will be able to help escort out whatever is left when they get there.
Somehow it just strikes me that Rove is the kind of man who will not be sent to prison. If it looks like they’re getting close, he’ll take his own life, thereby keeping himself out of jail and preserving his secrets. I could be wrong about this, and if I’m right I’ll take no particular pleasure in it.