So I have been reading, commenting and posting at both dKos and Booman since the pie wars. That’s when I first found this place. Looked like dKos. Same great info. A little slower pace. But, much kinder I have found.
So in the last couple of days, I have been engaged in the Purge Wars. Mostly, I think the purge wars are more like the cold war, or perhaps the Nazi occupation of France. By this I mean that the hostilities seem to be slightly more suppressed than in a lovely little war like Iraq.
At first I kept my peace, thankful not to be banned, because I am so far over the rainbow in the last five years with all the shit that is going on, I bet I do act like a nutcase most of the time. I know both sides of my family set me aside at family gatherings only hoping that no one mentions anything political. Hoping I will be left quietly to nibble appetizers and smile at strangers. But, slowly, I got involved. A comment of support here. A recommendation there. A four rating for one of the conspiracy theorist insurgents sprinkled in. And I haven’t been banned.
But, I was engaged in the following conversation with one of dKos’ patrons. I reproduce it below, minus signature tags and rating boxes, because I am interested in comments from Booman users (by the way, what do we call ourselves here — Froggers?). Am I being too sensitive here? Should I expect to be called an idiot at a civilized blog? Or, perhaps I reacted wrongly? I thought about it, and decided on the course you see below. But, now I feel all slimy. I don’t know.
But, I am left with the idea — maybe Kos should spend less time purging “conspiracists” and more time pruning the wings of the terminally impolite.
I honestly don’t know. But, I’m feeling a little safer here in the pond for now. Please let me know where I erred. Here is the bit.
Chilled
I think the ban against you was complete crap. I kind of think that the free exchange of ideas is a pretty good thing. Even loony ideas. They get shot down in their own good time.
I thought dKos was a place that followed that principle (speak your mind). I’m sorry to learn it is not. I can tell you, I’m a little hesitant to post my thoughts right now. I feel kind of like a radical progressive living in an all-Republican country, or something. You know that feeling. Where you are a little worried if you speak what you feel in the gut, someone might hussle you off to Gitmo.
by BostonJoe on Fri Jul 8th, 2005 at 16:40:27 EST
Idiot
I feel kind of like a radical progressive living in an all-Republican country, or something. You know that feeling. Where you are a little worried if you speak what you feel in the gut, someone might hussle you off to Gitmo.
by Mike S on Fri Jul 8th, 2005 at 18:12:00 EST
Genius
Idiot
by BostonJoe on Fri Jul 8th, 2005 at 19:05:38 EST
Oh SNAP!!!!!
Your mother must be proud of the intelligent wittyness of your comments.
by Mike S on Fri Jul 8th, 2005 at 19:07:52 EST
Brilliant
And your mother, by your incisive intellect in arguing your well-thought out points.
by BostonJoe on Fri Jul 8th, 2005 at 20:27:52 EST
Double SNAP!
by Mike S on Fri Jul 8th, 2005 at 20:42:05 EST
So are you guys…
Gonna, like, “do it” now? I mean, it sounds like you’re gonna pull ’em out and measure ’em, see who can shoot first, stream the farthest, or make the other scream for mercy.
Is this what Jesus’ General would call “male bonding”?
by homogenius on Fri Jul 8th, 2005 at 22:28:49 EST
I don’t like it
I was just replying in kind. Guess I didn’t feel like sitting back and taking crap. But, I see your point.
by BostonJoe on Sat Jul 9th, 2005 at 14:57:05 EST
It sounds like a couple of drunken fools in a bar. I’m with homogenius. When you get this kind of communication, walk away. Turn off the computer, go wash the dishes, take a nap. It’s not a matter of submitting to crap. This is not a personal attack, nothing is compelling you to attempt to deal with your fellow humans online. There are lots of us out here, some smarter than you, some dumber. It’s just somebody you passed on the street.
That’s good advice. I considered it even. But decided against it. And it was as silly as this — the guy said “idiot.” That’s personal. If he’d have said “idiotic,” I am sure I would have turned the other cheek. Because I am frequently idiotic, but I dislike being labeled and idiot. But, in retrospect, I probably should have just left well enough alone.
It does get personal sometimes. On the blogs you know it’s personal when the same people attack your diary or comments more than once.
Because I have been in the tin-foil area awhile with my RFIDs and HAARP concerns I’ve gotten to the point that I’ll still submit a diary if I think I have found more ‘proof’ and just do not respond to the comments. My main objective is to get people to just think about it. I’ve developed a thick skin. And have found several ‘like-minded’ bloggers in the process which makes all of it worth the risk.
I get many personal emails from kos people who agree with me and like my stuff but won’t comment on my diaries for various reasons. I don’t scare easy, but others do.
And I have thought for some time that there is a group at Kos who are purposely undermining many diarists over there. Maybe just another conspiracy theory, but I still trust my intuition.
of Daily Kos’s success, is that the right reads everything, and uses controversial stuff to discredit Markos, the site, and the community.
Because of that, they have to worry about stuff that can be easily ridiculed. It’s totally valid. The purpose of the site is to get Democrats elected and to have some positive influence over policy and media coverage.
I have the same goals for this site. But it is tricky to manage, and they have a big bullseye on their back. If they are seen as a bunch of whackos, the whole community will suffer.
The same phenomenon prevents all media from engaging in speculation that they cannot prove, which gives bad guys a wide latitude to behave badly.
It’s not a simple problem.
I see that point. I wouldn’t want to run a website and worry about these things. I just want a comfortable place to talk about ideas that seem to be important.
I understand their is history here, between all the blogs, and bloggers that I can only begin to understand as someone who arrived to this whole world only a few months ago. So I have gleaned a bit of info that you have a relationship with Kos and Armando that I am not privy to.
That being said, I have to say, I think you are striking a far better balance than Kos. And, I can’t equate it to the solely to the size of the site, or the glare of the relative spotlight.
When I read your comments, as opposed to Kos’ and Armando’s, I hear something that I don’t hear there. Humility. An inherent understanding in what you write that says this is the way I see it, but I could be wrong, and I’m open to ideas. The opposite of hubris. Not that you write this in so many words. And, maybe I am reading too much into your narratives. But, that is the sense I get.
Just your post here. You are willing to talk to people, not at people. I think. I like what you’ve built here very much. Thanks for the comment.
He’s part of the post patrol, a small group of people who think they can tell everyone else what to say. I had another one tell me one time that “kossacks think this” and “Kossacks feel that”. It was rather creepy.
I get that feeling, that there is some control mechanism too. I feel really self-censored posting there now. But, I don’t know that guy personally. Good to know I’m not alone in feeling that way though. Thank you.
Hi BostonJoe(you’re the one who does the great satire, right?). I’m not sure there is a consensus of what we call ourselves here-Tribbers I think may be one of the most common.
As for being to sensitive, well no one likes to be called an idiot and especially not for what you had written. I would say you shouldn’t beat yourself up for your responses. We all do and say things at times we regret, the point is to learn from it. How to respond or not respond to another such stupid comment.
It is much nicer here and the point that has come up over and over again here is Respect. Respect others opinions, if you don’t agree say why and not make personal attacks or ignore them. So far this has been followed beautifully and has made for a very very comfortable place for everyone to discuss issues or even just have some fun.
Yes. That’s me with the satire. Although I would hesitate to use the adjective great myself.
From reading all the posts, I think I need 1) to grow thicker skin to post on dKos, and 2) hang out here more. I agree that this is a much friendlier place.
Thanks for taking the time to post.
Well great is in the eye of the reader so to speak and I think many here thought that several of your satiric diaries were great. And hope to see more of them here. Satire and photoshopping like bood abides and others here I think are what keep many of us sane instead of being to depressed at what bushco is doing to the country(and the world).
And in a nod to bood’s limerick diaries I’d just like to add-Welcome Boston Joe, satire is the way to go. To expose the evils of bushco. So keep on saterizing and we’ll keep on fratenizing while hoping to give bush the heaveho.
And that’s why my poor attempt needs someone much better like yourself to diary here.
Thanks
Joe, I guess the only rule here is you do not make a prick out of yourself. I welcome you here for it is a calm and reasonable place as to the other place you reference.
Might I suggest you pick yourself a lilly pad and sit right down and start to ribbit like the rest of us here in the pond. Welcome
ribbit.
frog talk…;o)…ribbit…ribbit
I think I’ll take one. But, I’m going to have to work for awhile on being able to say “ribbit” in conversation.
Thanks for the welcome.
Thanks to all. I am done blogging for the weekend. Need a rest. So thanks to those that follow this, too.
Getting some perspective from the Tribbers helps. I still feel like an idiot for being drawn into this crap. Rosie, I am one of those who is out there and likes what you say. Agree with a lot, and appreciate the info. At times have felt too scared to respond. Especially on dKos. But, your point about thick skin is a good one. I love the ideas here. Love communicating. Just don’t want to be in high school again, either.
So anyway, thanks again, all.
Just consider it as learning something valuable today, and let it go. No point in picking at scabs.
And if you feel a bit slimy, well, have you ever picked up a frog? Welcome to our pond! Don’t forget to check in at the welcome wagon, and the froggy bottom cafe (where the 4s are on the house).
;-D
Thank you.
hi BostonJoe,
your first response was indeed worthy of the genius that you know yourself to be. Elegant and good-naturedly oppositional. The minimal effort to communicate the maximum truth.
you would have done well to leave it there, letting the lame “your momma” reply (with misspelled “wittiness”!) dangle to speak for itself henceforth and forever more.
see wu wei for a good guiding principle….
I try not to argue with crazy people. I barely even talk to myself anymore!
You get a 4 for the wu wei suggestion, for channeling my thoughts. 🙂
Thanks fnord. I will have to check out some wu wei. I am so lax on my eastern philosphy that I’m not even sure wu wei is eastern philosophy.
I’m a regular reader and commenter at dKos and an infrequent diary poster. I think I’ve only been flamed once and I was pretty flabbergasted, so I know how it feels.
The vast majority of discourse at dKos, I think, is civil and collegial. Unfortunately, unwarranted “pounces” kind of take all the attention. One user gets pissed on behalf of another, a gang rushes in and troll rates the abusive user and it just kind of grows legs from there (shrug).
I just tune out the unproductive stuff. If I thought that the content of diaries and comments were becoming largely unproductive I’d tune out dKos. We’re not there yet, and I hope that in all the “purge wars” trusted users realize that, if they enjoy the site and posting and the discourse, they need to be judicious in their rating responsibility.
IMO, the problem will correct itself. And for the record, I didn’t see anything you said that warranted the pounce you received.
I really, really don’t want to talk about dKos, and in fact promised not to, on one of Booman’s diaries a couple of weeks ago, but the thought occurs to me that when a site gets to the size of dKos there may be different interpersonal dynamics at work because everyone cannot know everyone else to the degree we do here. At around 1,500, it’s still theoretically possible to get to know all the frequent posters here pretty well. And this affects the way people approach conversations and rating diaries. Is it that all the nice people hang out here? Or does the size and dynamics of a smaller pond help make people nice? Why do people speak fondly of small town life?
Maybe when a site gets beyond a certain size (membership) the rating system needs to change? I don’t know how, but it’s an interesting idea to consider.
Reminds me of a book I read ages ago (20 years?) called “Human Scale” by Kirkpatrick Sale. One of the points he made was that cities have an optimum size, say between 50,000 and 200,000. Below that, you lose cultural amenities like libraries, public radio stations, art museums. Above that, traffic, crime, pollution become a problem. Maybe there is an optimum size for blogs as well (for instance, greenstate could use more visitors, hint, hint). I suspect there is, and I suspect we’re in that range now. If we get to five or ten times our current size, we may start to run into dKos-like problems. I hope not, but I wouldn’t be surprised.
I think that’s a really good point. I hope that BMT stays optimum too.
For taking the time to write. I think I probably over reacted. Need thicker skin. But, your observations on dKos seem right to me.
For the record, there was no troll-rating in the little incident. At least not that I’m aware of (I’m a little slow with the whole rating thing and what it means, etc.)
Keep in mind which subjects cause contraversy and if you touch one of those expect it. If you are willing to deal with it and think its productive thats one thing, but if you don’t feel like getting involved in arguments then maybe those areas are ones to steer clear of.
I knew standing up and talking about the purging was going to be unpopular. I just had to at some point. What good is a blog if you don’t feel free to speak your mind.
But, thicker skin is definitely one of the lessons learned for me about this.
Thanks.
Absloute power corrupts absolutely. As a longtime lurker at Daily Kos I was dismayed that Kos would ban great numbers of members without any warning.
This was an insensitive act of impatient arrogance that does not resonate with free speech or democracy.
So what kind of free speech is Daily Kos advocating?
Five cents, please, he may punishing his own community in order to compensate for the political ground he lost with his own famous temper tantrum that justified the mutilation of contract workers in Iraq.
It was a knee-jerk reaction, and he has apologized for it. But he has not apologized for indulging in knee-jerk reactions.
Yeah. I agree about dKos. I think Rosie said it how I might have. Something like he is young and impulsive. Has a lot of world to see yet.
The purging pissed me off though. And, then Armando’s legalistic take on the the first amendment response. The guy always misses the point, IMHO. It wasn’t an argument where someone was going to go to court and plead a First Amendment violation. It was the fact that for a progressive website to limit speech is against a principle in the First Amendment that most of us hold dear, whether it applies legally, or just in principle.
Thanks for comments.
more time pruning the wings of the terminally impolite.
Amen! And after the pruning, they could apply the balm of common courtesy.
You are a treat, BostonJoe. The other guy’s the idiot.
Personally,I won’t play in pools where sharks swim. But that’s just me, heh.
Terminally impolite? I hear they punish that sort of thing by making you an arrogant frontpager in some places…
Anyhow, BostonJoe, don’t sweat it. In every online community there are the self-appointed cops who get a thrill out of being part of something bigger than themselves. Even if they weren’t invited to do so. Even here I’ve seen a comment or two from a community part-timer trying to play that role. But that’s over a three month period, so its not exactly common.
Kinda funny, considering the site owner himself says the only rule is “don’t be a prick”. Doesn’t give the rules-lawyers personalities much to go on. More authoritarian leaders tend to cultivate thuggish groupies. With Booman in charge, its just not a problem.
Thankfully this is a wonderful group of caring people here. I’m not so much sure the size of the site as it is attitude.
Amazing the difference in discourse when the motto is “play nice”.
I always thought if the purpose of a blog was to win elections, you’d have to deal with people. True, part of that is providing information to the true believers to make them more effective. But that’s not the whole game, that’s just a start.
It’d also need to show by example that the party isn’t the soft-hearted, soft-headed, anti-patrotic babykilling, terrorist-loving, tax and spend bugaboo the “mainstream media” has been telling everyone. It’d need to show that “liberals” care about the country, just maybe differently than others. It’d need to dispel and refute the widespread lies and talking points of the other side — not by childishly saying “I call bullshit”, or “Fuck you, freeper” or “THAT’S A LIE”, but you know, by actually making real adult points and by persuading the ‘lurker’ or even the misguided soul who posted said Republican talking points.
It’d need to welcome the fence sitters, the folks who voted for Bush but are starting to harbor doubts, and those who woke up and realized what a terrible mistake they’d made and are all angry at being used. It’d need to bring them into the fold and give them the tools to take back our country, not deride them nor blame them for causing this mess in the first place.
If a blog were truly about winning elections, it would be more than an echo-chamber for “right-thinking” individuals, it’d actively engage the online grassroots and leverage the power of people. Let folks like Dobson claim their opinons matter more because they have 100,000 folks on their mailing list. I’d rather have 10,000 folks who work together online and in turn each influence 10 folks offline, who in turn…
Its almost painful to recognize that ignorance, ill-manners, contempt for ones fellow human, and lust for power aren’t exclusively Republican traits. Nor does being a Democratic Party voter make one pure of heart. And online, all kinds of people from both parties can write pithy comments and make themselves feel relevant, or even important, on these weighty political issues.
I think a lot of people adopted dKos as their best hope to change the world by typing at a keyboard from the comfort of their homes. Certainly, its contributors did a great job of bringing news stories to our attention we didn’t see elsewhere, and wonderful firsthand accounts, and …
But, in the end, as its owner is so darned fond of pointing out, it’s his blog, not yours, not mine, not ours.
Which is kinda ironic, since it was never his posts, or his chosen disciples that attracted most folks there in the first place. It was the catnip’s with the live blogging of hearings, or SusanHu’s with wonderful investigative reporting that actually went far far beyond highlighting stories from the New York Times, or touching personal tales like MilitaryTracy’s first-hand account of being the spouse of a armed forces member in these days of neverending lowgrade war, or Meteor Blades insightful diaries that are literary treats to enjoy and deep stories that you find yourself pondering even days later, or … so many different people, really, for so many reasons.
Well, Booman Tribune has all of them. And it has the welcoming committee, the bar regulars, the kind souls who are always around with words of encouragement, the folks who humor those acting a bit trollish and work to reform them with kindness, not cursing. I’d name names, but I honestly don’t want to imply any sort of importance by order nor risk offending these wonderful people should I accidentally leave a name off the list.
Passionate Civility? This is a nice place for that.
for the very thoughtful post.
I agree with everything you said, about a 100%. Good to be here.
One thing I thought of after reading your post. A memory from my younger days. I was 18. Getting ready to join the service for college money. I was progressive then (but didn’t know the label for it). I remember my step-dad, an anti-war Vietnam vet, and a helluva nice guy. Very laid back. He was at my graduation and got into it a little bit with my gung-ho infantrymen recruiter. About war.
It was the only time I’ve ever really seen my stepdad get upset about anything. And, it got me to thinking, over the course of the next few years really — are liberal people just to laid back to wield power? A part of being liberal, to me, is to respect individuality. To live and let live, within the confines of rules we need to protect our common interests. Not quick to shout down opposing views. Willing to listen. Work constructively on problems. And, I started to think that we were doomed to be ruled by short sighted people who are more concerned with power. Who want to rule the world. I still think that explains Republican success in a lot of ways. Maybe I’m wrong though.
Anyway. Thanks for your comments.
Power is only gained by those who are willing to exercise power. You have to be willing to cut people off at the knees, people from your own party, in order to rise to the top.
Most politicians, in both parties, are accomplished sons of bitches.
But there has never been any other way. If you want power, you have to fight for it.
You want to control the biggest military arsenal in world history? You better not think you can gain control of it by preaching huge cuts in defense spending.
The powerful protect themselves, and the GOP, as the party of the powerful, will always have a home-field advantage.
Thank you.
You bring up an interesting point. I think to be successful a liberal leader has to really want to fight to protect and spread his beliefs. Perhaps that’s a bit “paternalistic”, but it is politics.
To be a good leader, he’ll have to listen to his base as much as the other side’s guy listens to theirs. That doesn’t mean following 100%, as we’ve seen. But it means not betraying any fundamentals, and pressing every advantage to promote the base’s agenda. Of course, there will be compromise and disappointment at times. But he is a leader to push change, not seek status quo. Most of all, he may very well be a she.
Its funny to me — the Republicans are openly offensive in many of their agendas. Others blatantly favor a few at the expense of the many. The Republicans never really hide from them, tho they often coat them with excessive sugar (propaganda). And it works for them.
Democrats seek to co-opt some Republican support by “positioning” themselves as the “same as republicans” in many ways during campaigns. But the Republicans never do that. They’ll take a Democratic idea and put a red bow on it and claim its theirs. But they always have a very definite sense of who they are.
I think we can have a strong Democratic leader. But Shrum and the other Beltway insiders need to step down and step away. They don’t understand their ‘centrist’ strategy is all part of the larger plan of their corporate donors. It’s a hedge, a bet to limit the downside should their main plan – Republican control, experiences weakness, or runs into trouble with the rest of its ‘base’. I think the Democratic consultants mean well, but they’ve been disconnected from non-beltway reality.
Thanks Kansas. I am not quite ready to write my GBCW diary at dkos. But, I was close. It does feel like a shark tank.
A few weeks ago here, I read a diary entry here about parenting, and chuckled a little about how people were oh so careful about not offending anyone else with their comments. Most comments that could possibly be taken in a negative way were qualified five times over, just to make sure the other person wouldn’t be offended. It seemed almost quaint – like Deadwood, when they’re in flowery Victorian language mode, not c-s-er mode. I was busy this week, so the purge went way under my radar. After reading this diary, and investigating a little bit further, I have a renewed appreciation for having a place where people go out of their way to avoid being pricks, rather than taking pride in acting like one.
That is a really excellent point you make about size. I guess I knew it instinctually from what I wrote about Booman in my own post. I was born in a small town, so I’m comfortable in small places. dKos is like NYC. This place is like Mayberry, with smart people. I opt for Mayberry. Or even Deadwood.
Thanks.