This started as a comment, but it got so long I decided to post it as a diary. It probably won’t be too popular, but here goes.
I’m sorry this is a rant – I hope you all can forgive me. I am just getting a wee bit frustrated.
Look
I understand why many of you are upset.
But . . .
What is this place to you? Is Booman a blog where like minded people can get together and discuss issues in a more supportive environment . . . or a place to “complain about Kos” 24/7?
Booman has worked hard to make a place for a balance of the sexes, a respectful place to hang out and try to be politically active and thoughtful. He has offered a place where your voice matters. So use your voice – HERE. Can’t you hear him subtly begging for you all to use this place for its intended purpose? He is too kind and polite to come right out and say it – because he is caring. I feel, frankly, many of you are taking advantage of his kindness and walking all over him. I don’t like seeing friends treated this way.
If you don’t like it over at Kos – fine. Come over here. Enjoy it. Find the voice of Booman. I can’t hear it any more under the cacophony of complaints about Kos. This place used to be a second home for me as well. But now every time I come here there are multiple diaries about how horrible it is at “the other place”.
I feel like this is the friend that had a bad breakup . . . a long time ago . . . that you eventually have a hard time being around – because all they can talk about is how horrible their significant other was (even though the “other” is also a friend of yours). And you have to agree with everything they say, and claim your hatred of the other person . . . or you are viewed as uncaring and it amplifies the complaints even more as they attempt to garner your 100% support. Eventually, you don’t even want to answer your phone any more because they constantly call at odd hours of the night with some remembered grievance that popped into their head while they were dozing.
Some grieving over loss of what you thought was something close is necessary, but there comes a point where it is unhealthy to go over it again and again and again. You become unable to move forward and are unable to recognize what life has given you. So use this place for what it can be on its own – not a second rate blog to bitch about what is wrong with another one. It really is unbecoming.
And as many problems as there are with Kos, wouldn’t energy be better spent fighting the real enemy? The Conservative side thrives on finding where we fight amongst ourselves, because then all they do is sit back and let us do their dirty work. We will not all agree on all issues – ever. We are too diverse. I won’t pretend many horrible things were not said at Kos, because they were. But we are all going to be supporting the same group of Candidates – whether you like it or not, we will be working toward that same ’06 goal. You do see that, don’t you?
If Kos wants a place where rational thought supplied with evidence and support of your main position is important . . . and you don’t like it . . . don’t go there. It will be easier on everyone involved. If it frustrates you don’t.go.there. Then you can be here and be constructive instead of stuck complaining about someplace else.
I waited for awhile after the Pie fights because time was needed for everyone to settle into a new home. But I am starting to wonder if that is what many view this environment as. Move in, fluff the pillows, buy some fuzzy rugs in a color you like – but move in. Do you need to check every move Kos makes? Or is it time to move on with your life and make your unique contributions?
There is so much potential here . . . Please, please, please . . . can I have my Booman Tribune back now? Please.
Update [2005-7-13 18:11:42 by SeattleLiberal]:: Well, I was not expecting this response from a diary I posted at 3 in the morning.
My intention was not to insult any member here and I apologize if any took it that way. Any overgeneralizations are my own – and I did use some. This is one of the drawbacks of a format like this one. This is still how I was feeling early this morning. This has been a place I have frequented since April, and as you all know there have been many changes since then.
I appreciated the responses below. And many comments pointing out errors have been noted. I may not agree with everything disputing my little morning rant, but I see your point of view. I thank you for the dialog.
As I said, this probably won’t be too popular, the frustrated rantings of the sleep deprived. But I have missed what this place was.
I will respond to my hate mail later today. I have a project due and will be in and out all day.
before they can put it behind them and get on with their lives — it’s sort of like all the complaining about the election results, we had to get those out of the way before we could look ahead and see how we can deal with the status remaining quo.
If you’re upset about Kos diaries…don’t click on them.
Just my $0.02 — and probably not worth even that, since I’ve been awake all damn night… 🙁
FWIW, I agree with BOTH of you. People do need to vent AND MOVE ON.
I was really upset to see that one of our new members has a sig line referring to Kos in a negative way. Whether I like his personal politics or not, Kos’ site spawned many of my favorite blogs. For that, I am happy.
I was really upset to see that one of our new members has a sig line referring to Kos in a negative way.
Would that be my sig? Probably not, since i’m not referring to kos. I assumed I’ll change mine when/if I get reinstated…
I wish you would change it now. The space could be used to advance a positive thought, not to brandish a badge of intolerance by another site.
Agreed. A good quote is always appreciated. (When I find one I guess that I’ll take my own advice!)
Actually it was someone else…
If you do a Google search for quotes from someone you admire, you will find so many good ones to choose from that you might have to change your sig line on regular basis; plus, we all get to see some good quotes we might otherwise have missed!
Bah, I think your sig is great.
It immediately identifies what sort of person you are (one who questions), shows you have a good sense of humor, and lets us know something about you.
I really don’t see how publically stating you were one affected by a very public action taken by some blog is a negative reflection on that blog. I mean, sheesh. The guy who did the banning was the one who made a public spectacle of it.
I suppose “I was rear-ended by a drunken driver” on a bumpersticker would make friends of the drunken driver uncomfortable, but what exactly did you do wrong other than point out you were a victim? Perhaps the folks who feel uncomfortable with your sig should take a moment to figure out why it makes them uncomfortable? Because its unflattering to some other blog, pointing out one of its more foolish actions and stating how it affected you? I mean, really.
If you do decide to change it, that’s your call. But please don’t do it because you feel “Boo-tribbers” want you to. I’m one (ID #39), and I’m 100% fine with it. So don’t assume those others speak for the whole community, they’re just individuals like you and I are.
I know people need to vent.
And I am glad to see the increase in diaries about women’s issues and truly enjoyed the diary on NLP by Militarytracy.
But it isn’t just in certain diaries. This is all pervasive. It shows up in threads and as was mentioned here – in signatures.
People went to other blogs like Unbossed (featuring very intelligent, strong and wonderful women like em dash and mcjoan), MyDD, and many others without spending so much energy on Kos bashing. The entire tone has changed here, in my opinion.
Booman is only one of many blogs that was started by Kos members. Why should this one have become the “venting” blog?
As I said, I see so much potential here for issues and don’t like the fact I am not coming here as often as I would like to.
that people would try to turn the issue that is bugging them to a more productive and depersonalized purpose.
For example:
The role of free speech on a partisan blog, where a lot of free speech is already banned (GOP talking points, for example).
The nature of covert operations, and the difficulties of attributing acts to intelligence agencies.
The limits of acceptable political speech and expressions of belief (an atheist politician, for example).
The proper role for a moderator on a political blog.
etc.
There are ways to discuss Daily Kos, without slamming it, or making DKos the main subject.
I appreciate all you have put into this place. You seem like a wonderful person and I am glad for what you offer here.
I agree with you BooMan, just the other day I suggested a few things along these lines in a diary and the author was ameanable to change.
I just think that instead of “calling out” an entire group of people like this diary does, that commenting respectfully within the threads or on the diary is the best tactic.
I appreciate this site and the way that you approach your role as host/moderator, and I have tried my utmost to respect your wishes and make my presence at BMT a positive and constructive one.
You are fabulous and the frog diggity! (See comment down thread.)
Seriously, you’ve done great work here. I love the site, the community, and the frog.
Thanks for welcoming me.
I came over from Kos but not to rant or vent or anything else. I didn’t like what was happening so it’s a free country you go wherever you want. I still go to Kos but only for the C & J and snark. I don’t care what he does..it’s his blog.
ditto that for me too and welcome..
I recommended your diary because this needed to be said. I came here even before the pie wars and do agree that it is time to let it all go. I still visit Kos’ site for other great diarists work. Each to their own but we have really important issues to work on here. Let’s get focused.
<with surprise> You came here even before the pie wars???!!!</surprise> Hey, old timer…. 😉
Sometimes it’s easy to forget that this site is not quite four months old…
While I appreciate your point of view on this, you do seem to be painting with a fairly wide brush. I’ve been here for over a month and haven’t engaged in any of the things that you are talking about. By saying things like “I miss what it was”, you not so subtly imply that we who are new are wrecking the BMT experience for you.
Also, I have to take exception to this:
But we are all going to be supporting the same group of Candidates – whether you like it or not, we will be working toward that same ’06 goal. You do see that, don’t you?
No, I do NOT see that! Whether I like it or not? Please! This is the exact kind of thing that I am trying to get away from. I would like to have a place where I can talk freely about supporting whatever candidate I choose…
Maybe you didn’t mean any of this in the way I am interpreting it and I don’t mean to be confrontational, but I was beginning to feel at home here ….
I do go back and forth a lot — when I see stupid stuff going on and have something to say about, I say it THERE. Which is sort of my point in the post above. Say what you need to say within the context of what you are saying it about…makes for a lot less acrimony (or at least keeps the acrimony contained and incident specific).
You can support whoever you want. I voted for Nader in 2000 and feel third parties should be more viable. My point of the above sentence is that there are MANY members of dKos that will support whatever candidate you choose to support. Name your choice and someone there will be in agreement.
I’m not telling you who to choose, only that we will have the same pool to choose from. Unless you are a Libertarian or Green – both O.K. choices but that would be an exception.
I want you to feel at home here. This is a great place.
Well, thank you, but I think my point was that I thought it was understood that I don’t need anyone’s permission and I wasn’t talking about dKos, I was talking about here. My experience with “agreement and support” have been a bit different.
When I first came over here, BooMan asked about political identifiers and if you look back through my comment history here, I have been fairly consistent on this point. I am a self-described “little-i independent” who doesn’t like to be told to “toe the party line”. Yes, I understand that we all want to see BushCo. go, that is a shared goal, but there are many different ideas about how to reach it and what the alternatives are. That’s all I’m saying. And are you sure that Libertarians and Greens are the exception?
In the same way that I have no problem with anyone’s religion until they try to cram it down my throat, I have no problem with anyone’s partisianship until they try to cram it down my throat. Does that make more sense?
Also, the more important point in my post was that I think that it is MUCH more appropriate to post your concerns IN SITU, not in an abstract, general “calling out” diary.
Though I’ll admit that I would never use the signature line I use here over at dKos (and that does suggest a difference between these two places), I am nevertheless an out Green Kossack over there, and I did have a sig line throughout the fall suggesting that folks in safe states should vote for David Cobb for President. And I never lost my trusted user status over it or anything else.
I agree with you that I don’t want BooTrib to turn into some whiner zone but I disagree that it is that already. Less than a handful of diaries slamming Markos don’t add up to changing the whole tone of this place. Recently, I haven’t been as compulsive a reader as I have been in the past so maybe I’ve missed this trend.
But, this week I only read one diary that fits this decription. Only one. And there are only a couple of new members wearing their fresh battle scars in their sig lines. And, if you had been banned from a site for simply recommending a diary you’d want to scream about it someplace, too. They’ll get over it eventually and change their sigs. In the meantime, I respect their right to display their feelings.
The Pie War brought in a flood of refugees who sought comfort here and settled in to become productive members of our community. And now we’ve got a smaller wave of folks who were more directly purged and they’ll settle in, too. Everything will be fine until the NEXT TIME Markos does something stupid and offends another group of people.
Remember: No one would be complaining about dKos if there wasn’t something to complain about. If you don’t want more Kos-slamming diaries then, maybe, you need to ask Markos to stop censoring and purging people. Another way to say this is: Why are you blaming the victims?
Blaming the victims?
Not at all. I have been very critical about some of Kos’s maneuvers. They were not appropriate. I stated this above. My question is what do people see this site as – a place to voice their legitimate concerns about the state of the Nation, the problems with inequality, injustice, racial issues, and many others as they stand in our society as a whole by using their unique voices? Or a place to flee to when all’s not well somewhere else. This site is a voice of its own – not some addendum to Kos.
I welcome anyone here that leaves there for reasons I completely understand.
The incidents at Kos did illustrate that many of these problems are “hidden” in many people I thought were above it. So the legitimacy of using Kos as an illustration are valid. There are problems – but many of the attacks are aimed at a single website (or single individual) as opposed to our culture in general. This narrow attack will keep the audience narrowed as well. These are larger problems than Kos as you know.
My question is what do people see this site as – a place to voice their legitimate concerns about the state of the Nation, the problems with inequality, injustice, racial issues, and many others as they stand in our society as a whole by using their unique voices? Or a place to flee to when all’s not well somewhere else. This site is a voice of its own – not some addendum to Kos.
Who here believes this site is an addendum to dKos? Raise your hands. Okay – not having seen any hands I suggest that if you want to know what BT is all about read this diary by me and this one by Booman.
O.K. everyone raise their hand if they like vanilla ice cream . . . What, no one likes vanilla?
Sorry for the snark, but that is an interesting device to use in a digital world. 🙂
Look, obviously I touched something off in you and I apologize. My intention was not to insult members of this community. It was to express my hope that Booman becomes/remains the success it deserves to be. I’ve been steadily coming here since April, so I’m not just getting to the party.
Can we call a truce?
Remember: No one would be complaining about dKos if there wasn’t something to complain about. If you don’t want more Kos-slamming diaries then, maybe, you need to ask Markos to stop censoring and purging people. (emphasis mine)
No. That is not the role of the Booman Tribune. AT ALL.
Please don’t ask folks here to get drawn into that fight. That’s not why I visit and comment. I suspect other folks feel that way as well. Not only that, but it’s counterproductive. What we say here is not germane to what goes on there or anywhere else.
And I don’t say this because I’m fond of Markos. In fact, I’ve said some things a/b him here that I wish I hadn’t, and not because I believed it to be false or because I believed it shouldn’t be said.
Quite simply, I should not have said it here. It’s not fair to the community. The community gave me a lot of latitude. I won’t take more.
Are we going to make Booman Tribune even greater, or are we going to be bogged down by what’s happening someplace else? Vent if you have to, but don’t keep re-living it. (I vented, but then I knew I had to STFU about things the community had no hand in.) Thank God, the universe or the stormcloud’s silver lining for finding a great community under duress and move on.
It’s not the Booman Tribune’s responsibility to cast out or cure the sins of DailyKos, or any other site.
I don’t think I made a call for BooTrib to take some kind of official action against another site. Not at all. I asked the diarist to focus on the cause of the problem instead of faulting people for complaining about it. I don’t think I asked anyone to fight about anything. I want everyone to feel comfortable and free to say whatever they think and feel — within the limits of the Law and common decency, of course.
We have a tradition here of welcoming new members and asking them about themselves. If the reason they are here is because they were mistreated elsewhere, I don’t want them to feel constained from saying so. They should vent and be assured that BooTrib is an open forum where they are free to express themselves.
I may have taken these statements–Remember: No one would be complaining about dKos if there wasn’t something to complain about. If you don’t want more Kos-slamming diaries then, maybe, you need to ask Markos to stop censoring and purging people. Another way to say this is: Why are you blaming the victims?–a bit out of context. I do apologize for that.
I certainly don’t want anyone taking up blog arms against anyone, and I don’t want to imply that anyone here has done that.
But I do know what it feels to be mad as hell. I was one. Emphasis on was. I’ve had some time to get comfy on my lily pad, so to speak. I said a couple of things that may not have been helpful for the community. I was given the space for that, for which I will always be grateful. But as I said, I knew I had to STFU a/b how I felt sooner rather than later. I couldn’t go on and on.
I guess that’s what I’m clumsily typing here: I cherish the free speech here. I know from personal experience that folks want to vent…perhaps even NEED to vent. But if I, through my actions, turn this into a Kos-bash, an anti-Kos, etc. then I have to examine my motivations. In this case, the victims–to use your term–have responsibilities, too. At some point, we have to return to being all about the Booman Tribune. We have to return to our commitment to see the most corrupt administration in this country’s history being frog-marched out of the WH and into jail–like Bernie Ebbers earlier today (Woo Hoo! The crook. Take THAT).
Besides, I’d MUCH rather mock republican hypocrites like Tricky Ricky Santorum. That’s MUCH more fun.
Cheers! :<)
is almost finished for many of our new people, bless their hearts. It is nice getting into the Boogroove too but it can be a rough transition sometimes. I think we are almost back to Boodrive again.
I agree wholeheartedly, and I blew in under what I consider less than ideal circumstances. A “pie war” refugee, so to speak.
What I’ve tried to remember, however, is that we all have a responsibility to each other, no matter how bruised we may be feeling. You hop in from somewhere else, land on a lily pad, and then just rip it to shreds?
In other words, just because someone has sheltered you in a storm, you don’t have the right to just tear up the place. The Booman Tribune is its own entity and we have to treat it as such.
I can’t speak for all of us newbies, but I can’t wait to read Booman’s take on the issues. I think he’s fabulous, the frog diggity. (That’s a silly take on the slightly dated slang, “the bomb diggity.” Yes, it’s a compliment.) It takes a lot of work to run this site and churn out quality work. I love susanhu’s work. I love her fresh perspective. Actually, I’m jealous as hell (but in a good way, honest!) because I often say–wish I’d have thought of that!
And I love the frog! (May we see a lot more non-animated frog-marching in the days, weeks, and months to come, btw.)
If Markos’ or any other site angers you so, then don’t go back. It’s not worth the mental energy. And for me, I just don’t have the time. I want a place to receive information and engage in thoughtful give and take from a place where I can assume I’ll be respected. And I’ve found that place! So why worry about what others are doing? If you want to change the dynamics, then that work belongs on those other sites. Not here.
This is much longer than intended, but it’s because I can understand how a fellow newbie might feel. I hope it is accepted in that spirit.
But we’re not just newbies–we’re part of a distinct community that has welcomed us. We have responsibilities to THIS community, too.
Maybe it’s time for those of you who have been here longer to get to vent, too. God knows you’ve all given us that chance and you’ve had to put up with a lot in the process. I think. . .hope. . .that you’ve gotten some benefit from us, too, but that’s not for us to say. This venting may be a little trickier, simply because we were venting about people outside of this site, while this present venting is about us and we’re now in the family.
But you listened, and so should we, and I for one will try to listen as non-defensively as I possibly can.
It would probably be a good idea to think about how to handle these things in the future, assuming there will be other waves of disgruntled immigrants.
Speaking for myself, I have tried (honest!) to keep my snark down but now and then I know it has slipped out. I apologize for anything I have done to devalue this site in the eyes of anyone who loves it. I love it, too, and only want the best for it.
Now I’m going to shut up and listen, promise.
Kansas,
thank you for that offer and know from this member, I pretty much have stated how I feel in my comment to auntiepeach.
I think most members here would agree that allowing the refugees from Dkos to vent their feelings was and is a good thing, so that they will know and understand that this community is not like other sites.
I appreciate what you have offered and thank you for it.
Talk away – please.
This is a place where you and I can talk, even on issues we disagree with.
Thank you AuntiePeach this hits the issue squarely on the head as far as I am concerned. I appreciate the fact that many walking wounded from the pie wars and purging, have found solace and refuge here at BMT. I rarely went to Dkos, so I don’t know many of you from there, but I do know many of you from here, where many of you have vented and indeed moved on to help create this wonderful place on the Internet.
I am sure there will be others who will move away from Dkos for whatever reason and they too will need to vent and hopefully move on and join the many wonderful writers who comprise BMT.
I appreciate SeattleLiberal’s point of view, though for me it hasn’t reached critical mass, as far as seeing BMT become an Anonymous 12 step program. And I do know 12 step recovery. lol
I hope that everyone who comes here will feel welcome, I know I was welcomed with open arms, by Diane101, in one of her early welcome wagon diaries and that was truly appreciated.
I find analysis of what is important to me, here at BMT. Critical understanding of the Reichwing and how it is slowly but methodically tearing down the very fabric of our Constitution and my country.
If someone comes here from another blog for whatever reason, I for one hope they will find the same welcome that I have received from the members and the founders of this blog. I hope that each of us, recognizes the worth and value that each individual brings to this blog and how it will help in our fight to regain our country and our Constitution.
You’re welcome. :<)
Please? Pretty please? Granted I don’t talk about dkos much, but I musta done something to tick people off… (it wouldn’t be a good day for me if I didn’t…)
I’ll wear it as a badge of honour… I promise 🙂
You’ll have to try harder…
Someone else got kicked off Bootrib a few months ago for reasons Booman explained at the time, and it isn’t worth going into who it was or what they did now. It wasn’t for ranting about Kos, though (this was well before Piegate).
So you won’t be the first. Heck, I’d be disappointed if you were even the most recent. 🙂
How could I possibly support your banishment when the only reason I visit this site is to shower you with “4s”? How could I, spiderleaf. . . how . . . could . . . I?
As long as the number one rule of etiquette is not violated, it can do some good to let our compatriots in the blogosphere come here for comfort after being purged from or deeply offended by another site. The resurgence of refugees from that one particular political blog is a result of the reality of what is happening over there. We should not suppress newbooie’s speech about their own hurt feelings. One of the things that makes this site attractive to me is that everyone seems to allow people to be people, not blog-o-trons that must show no hurt feelings. I was a refugee once, too, and I was greeted with some reality based understanding and readjustment suggestions. I think I speak for most Tribbers when I say “Open arms – but don’t be a prick.” That includes not abusing this site as a “gripe-tank,” or even a “gripe-about-griping-tank”. But I think that the answer is to do to others what was done to me when I first arrived here – I was gently admonished about the purpose of this site and about the particulars of my diary entry. I got the point and have tried to comply with the mores of this community, which I believe are quite reasonable and very welcoming.
I think this diary is slightly off the mark, because the seemingly repetitive griping may be a result of the accumulation of separate incidents that have accrued to the benefit of our community and to the detriment of other sites. I think we should treat each separate incidence of newbooie griping here as an opportunity to engage a new community member, not as a reason to gripe about griping. After all, the individual who has just arrived as a result of an incident at another blog needs some time to get over their individual hurts and some gentle guidance about how Booman Tribune is different. Individuals need differing amounts of time to “get over it”. Most who first come here, including me, have heard that “Booman is a better place”, but don’t know exactly why that is so. Let’s rally around them and give them a nudge or a push when necessary, not a general rant about their lack of understanding about this delicious blog.
In the Ancient Times of the BooTrib (better known as March), when I first got here, one thing that really irritated me was all the talk about kos.
Not Markos himself so much, but kos this, and kos that, and I didn’t like this about kos, and I loved this about kos and so on. Drove me batty, because – while I’d been a reader, very occasional commenter, and really rare diarist at kos, I was never a “part of the site”. So I didn’t have the same feelings of connection that many had. I was in favor of complete dekossification.
Thing is, for many people, dailykos was their introduction into the political blogosphere. Some were intensely involved, and formed friendships and connections and basically their online life and experiences, good and bad, were centered around the site.
After a short time, with Susan and BooMan posting excellent stories (and finding and honing their own voices and skills while doing so), and the other members of the site posting diaries on everything from politics to religion, human rights issues and how to breathe properly, people settled in and found their way to contribute to the building and growth of the site. While also keeping their connections to dailykos, and some of the very excellent diaries and people there.
BooMan was confident enough to pretty much just get out of the way and let the users build a community by planting their own gardens and painting their own landscapes, and making the site theirs.
Well, either that or he was just too busy to realize what everyone was doing ;).
Anyway, if I have a point (not always a guarantee) it’s that some people coming from other sites (right now, mostly kos) will for a time identify with those sites and relate everything to them, until they look around and realize… oh, this is someplace different.
All the kos stuff still drives me batty (and I feel sorry for BooMan because this is not the anti-kos site), but I know that it doesn’t last long… there is too much other interesting stuff going on around here, too many good diaries and front page stories, and coming elections and things that need to get done and all of that.
Soon, they too will be looking at the newer people coming in, shaking their heads in understanding, and then doing what they can to help them settle in to plant their own garden on the site.
Circle of blog community life ;).
(sorry about the length of this comment, but I didn’t think we needed another diary about all this 😉 )
It seems to this Piegate semi-refugee (I never left dKos, just started coming here, too) that, for whatever reason, among other things, BooTrib is a place to bitch about dKos. Nanette’s comment confirms that this aspect of the site well predates either of the two recent refugee influxes.
A couple thoughts on that aspect of BooTrib.
First, I have posted the occasional comment on a dKos related thread here. And I’ve found these threads useful, psychologically and, what’s more, politically.
Second, like the much-discussed “conspiracy” diaries at dKos, the dKos diaries/stories here simply are not that prominent. They are, in fact, more prominant than the dKos conspiracy diaries (side point: although I am very suspicious of conspiracy theories and tend to agree that the diaries in question were of little value, I think the reaction to these diaries by kos and others was truly hysterical). But kos-related diaries are still not so prominent here that this site threatens to become Kos Anonymous. That’s just one, small part of what this site is about.
Third point. One might, nonetheless, argue that any such diaries are too many such diaries. That enough is enough. That Kos Anonymous should have no place here. I guess I just disagree with that, for two reasons. First, dKos matters. It’s not just the first political blog many of us went to (in fact, it wasn’t the first political blog I read regularly…that would be Atrios). dKos is important because it is the largest, most visited, and most prominent progressive/Democratic (and what that slash means….there’s a dissertation there) blog in the U.S. Opinion makers and politicians now read it. And within the world of the progressive blogosphere, it’s an even bigger player. So even if one gets thoroughly sick of dKos, and decides not to hang out there any more (I haven’t gotten to that point yet, FWIW), it still matters what goes on there. (I guess I sometimes feel the same way about dKos that I, as a Green, do about the Democratic Party. I wish I didn’t have to worry about its inner workings, but like it or not, they are politically important.)
The second reason that the Kos Anonymous function of BooTrib is ok by me is that BooTrib has simply evolved this way. One of the wonders of the internet is the way communities — including successful blogs — take on a life of their own. As SeattleLiberal notes in the comment thread to this diary above, there’s no particular reason why this blog, of all the dKos spinoff blogs, should serve this function. But for reasons that I’ve already mentioned, I think this function is important, and, for whatever reason, this blog has happened to serve this function. Given this fact, there are a number of things one might do: accept that Kos Anonymous is one (small) part of BooTrib’s identity, and participate — or not — in that aspect of this site as one sees fit. Alternatively, one might rant against this aspect of the site in order to discourage such postings (or, further down this path, to encourage our host to ban such postings). Without naming names, we all know sites that have done the latter ;-).
I don’t think SeattleLiberal has has adopted this second strategy in this diary. Indeed, though I disagree with this diary, I applaud its tone, which represents what I like most about this site. Despite the growing number of (formal and informal) rules over at the other place, “don’t be a prick” has never been one of them.
But I do think that SeattleLiberal has fallen in the trap of writing a long diary about something the conclusion of which is that one ought not to post about the topic that this diary is about. Well, what’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander, IMO. If SeattleLiberal, or anyone else, is tired of Kos Anonymous, just avoid those diaries and stories. But if you want to comment on such things, don’t be surprised that others want to as well.
cacophony of complaints about Kos. This place used to be a second home for me as well. But now every time I come here there are multiple diaries about how horrible it is at “the other place”.
Great alliteration! But not very accurate, IMO. Sorry, I’m just not hearing the cacophony nor seeing the multiple diaries. Perhaps I’m missing all this, but I read here every day.
I think you hurt your case by exaggeration; I agree that this blog will never amount to much if it’s only an anti-Kos site, but that’s certainly not what I see here. I wouldn’t bother coming back if it were.
This blog is home to many of the gentler souls in the political blogosphere, which is a strength in many ways, but also a weakness. A feeling is not a fact, and the two should never be confused.
Dear, dear friends
This diary and the comments are both sad and amusing for me.
Because as I read down the thread I found I agree with all of you. Confused? Me ? Maybe!
I can identify with those who’ve felt wronged at the-place-we-daren’t-mention. Although I never suffered at he-whose-name-must-not-be-spoken’s hands, I found the tone and culture of the-place-we-daren’t-mention was becoming hard to bear in the early months of this year.
And yes, although I’ve revelled in the swamp and sat upon the lily pads since Booman bravely started here, I’ve also crept back to look at that other place…albeit less and less.
When the Great Exodus occurred, I trembled slightly, for I saw the quiet swamp begin to seeth with new life, competitors perhaps, and the diaries started to roll over alarmingly fast. Was the swamp destined to go the way of the other place?
So far it has not, IMHO… I think the larger numbers have been accommodated well, and the respectful, intelligent culture hasn’t dumbed-down or been overwhelmed. In one sense, it has been enhanced for me, because ever since my teen years I have had a penchant for strong, articulate women.
But I also find myself occasionally identifying with SeattleLiberal, and saying to myself “hey, can’t you just forget the-place-we-daren’t-mention, can’t you just concentrate on getting on with things here…” And as I’ve thought about this, I realised that so long as I wasn’t motivated enough to say this out loud, I was tolerating other users’ need to vent their spleen.
Perhaps this is an aimless, unfocussed mumble from a tired man, sitting at the keyboard late at night in the deep, dark bottom corner of the world.
Perhaps it’s also a statement that collectively, we don’t (or shouldn’t) need to keep referring to the-place-we-daren’t-mention as a reference point or benchmark, but that we should respect the individuals who are still incensed / obsessed / outraged.
And finally, Booman, thanks for being such a tolerant host. No doubt you laugh and cry about the site on a daily basis.
What he said.
Man Eegee beat me to it.
What Cranberra boy said.
Man Eegee and venice beat me to it. What Cranberra boy said.
I checked this site out for a while when Booman started back in March. Then I found myself spending more time here (up to 75% or more) and less at DailyKos. After the pie wars I made this 100% my home with an occasional visit to Cheers & Jeers friends on the other site.
The venting is good in diaries and comments. We can read them or not.
My .02 – I am personally offended by the signature lines about DailyKos. We had a few during the pie war days (refugee comments) but they disappeared. My response to those signatures is to not rate the comment. No matter how good or insightful the comment, I can’t support the signature.
I thought we’d had Meta-Kos diaries earlier…now we should be focusing on Rove, SCOTUS, and Iraq, and heaven help us at least a hundred other things.
DailyKos is just another blog…read it, love it, hate it. I agree with SeattleLiberal that Booman Tribune is not the Anti_kos site.
But we are all going to be supporting the same group of Candidates – whether you like it or not, we will be working toward that same ’06 goal. You do see that, don’t you?
While I agree in general with your argument, this one point sticks in my craw.
Yes, we’ll most likely all be voting Dem in the general election. Speaking only for myself — though I suspect there are others who would agree — Kos and I will be supporting a very different mix of candidates in the primaries. Electability will be a significant consideration for me, but it will not be the only consideration. And that, in a nutshell, is the difference. I’ve been around long enough to see that the values put forward by a honorable losing candidate often come into vogue after the winning candidate screws the pooch. If we win the battle of popular opinion, the electoral victories will follow as a natural consequence.
‘Scuse me as a furriner here, but are US politicians required to have sexual relations with dogs if elected? Or perhaps you’re just referring to the inevitability that things will eventually go wrong for the winner…
An interesting turn of phrase I hadn’t heard before. Is it still in copyright?
Rick “Man on Dog” Santorum has some inside…er insight on this turn of phrase.
Rick Santorum is not only a self-righteous punk, but one with deep issues.
What is wrong with him? His stupid musings equating healthy sexuality with sexual abuse and doing doggies are indicative of a boy in arrested development who desperately needs to seek help. Really.
I don’t know what’s going on in his BR and I don’t want to–it’s people like that with the most demons to hide.
just might have been a victim of said sexual excesses when he was an altar boy and then a perpetrator as he carried it through as a young adult.
I am wondering if Rick fecal matter Santorum only has sexual relations with his wife in an act of procreation. I know that is harsh, yet I just could not resist. I forgive myself, I am after all just a human being.
That sounds about right. Either that, or he really enjoys it, really feels guilty, and wants to take it out on the world.
Self hate is often more destructive to other people. It’s the mental equivalent of killing people, and then yourself.
He’s also apparently an expert on the proper role of women (three paces behind) and blames Hillary (again?!) for the “Village” metaphor being some kind of communist plot. It’s just not healthy.
It’s also a damnable lie, as he well knows. The village metaphor is borrowed from an African proverb, “It takes a village to raise a child.” He’s also mad at “the feminists” for making women think they want a career outside of the house…not that women could have possibly come up with that on their own. Not only that, but folks are just being selfish and materialistic for not living on one salary.
Yes, Ricky, we know that you empathize. It’s tough making ends meet on a 6-figure salary supplemented by a medical malpractice award.
Sorry for the rant, but that jackass needs to be retired. Frog-march his @$$ to … somewhere … on general principle.
Heh. I think the origin of the phrase is midwestern US. A more polite phrase with the same meaning from pilot slang is “to buy the farm”. Both denote some kind of spectacular self-destruction.
Ahhh, but I was talking about the thousands of members and not an individual. I doubt I will choose a candidate for the same reason Kos does as well. I hated the “because they are electable” arguments during the last election.
I just would like to see a balance of power take place in the Congress. I don’t care what that looks like at this point – only that the R’s lose a few seats.
So you and I agree here.
The thing about it is, I think dKos is not just some other blog. With its enormous size, postings by House and Senate members, the Senate Democratic Communications Center, investigations into Gannon/Guckert, the DSM, etc., dKos has really come to be a representative of the left as a whole.
I know that doesn’t seem fair, and Markos never intended it to be so. In fact, during the whole pie wars he was stubbornly insisting dKos was still just a little personal blog. But his latest round of bannings was a resounding acknowledgement that what happens at dKos has an impact in the greater world of liberal politics and beyond.
Just as we might comment on the crazy stuff coming out of the DNC, the Kerry camp, the Clintons, or Joementum’s mouth, we may find it necessary to comment about dKos as a representative of our side of the political aisle. I agree that personal stuff should probably not be included in that mix, but just as I might point out a great point made by Atrios, or Billmon, or Kos, I will also continue to point out when I think any of them is off base.
What prompted this? You’re either very late to the party or I missed what’s been going on here the last few days because this, afaic, had already been sorted out.
If some people here are complaining about dKos, what’s the big deal? We complain about other lefty sites too. I don’t think that what goes on at dKos should be such a scared cow that we cannot talk about it here. Tribbers also responded to what happened at Steve Gilliard’s blog the other day re: a post saying Muslims haven’t decried the London bombings. We see stuff on other blogs and we talk about it. dKos cannot be immune to that.
What is this place to you? Is Booman a blog where like minded people can get together and discuss issues in a more supportive environment . . . or a place to “complain about Kos” 24/7?
Who’s complaining about Kos 24/7? And why write a diary about this unless it’s a majority of Tribbers? It seems to me, in the spirit of this place, that you ought to be confronting that person or persons directly or talking to Booman about it. Why drag the rest of us into it?
Do you need to check every move Kos makes? Or is it time to move on with your life and make your unique contributions?
Totally disingenuous and insulting to those of us who do make unique contributions.
So use this place for what it can be on its own – not a second rate blog to bitch about what is wrong with another one. It really is unbecoming.
What’s unbecoming is putting up a diary that condemns some unknown Tribber(s) and chastising the rest of us for the actions of a few.
Frankly, Seattle Liberal, you may have had a reason to write this or to complain, but the way you’ve gone about it is unfair to those of us who have moved on and who still reserve the right to take a look at any blog and comment about what’s going on there. How many posts have you seen denigrating other blogs like DU over at dKos? Have you ever called them out? What about those who railed on Steve Clemons or other bloggers here or elsewhere?
You’ve cast far too wide a net here and I’d suggest that you read the majority of diaries and comments here at BT on a regular basis to get a feel for what’s really going on here. It’s not about us not meeting up to your expectations. It’s about your having a very narrow perspective of what really goes on here day in and day out.
Other Tribbers have been nicer to you in trying to get their points across and that’s fine, but I think you seriously need to reconsider what you’ve written in this diary because it does not reflect the Bomman Tribune that most of us see here every day.
Please allow me to play devil’s advocate here if I may. It just may be this diary was written due to another diary that is now in the recent diary list that no one has recommended(that says alot). The title if anyone missed it is “Kossack Lynching Forthcoming”.
IMHO this type diary is unnecessary.It is my option to go to any blog I want to read and decide for myself if it is for me. That particular diary regurgitated the posters disdain for what offends him at Kos. Ok, he cannot post over there because he was banned but does that mean we have to read what is on Kos here?
I still read Kos not for Kos but other distinguished writers and commenters. I just don’t think that this is the place for slamming what is going on at kos. It doesn’t mean we cannot discuss other blogs but that things are getting pasted over here to what purpose?
From reading that diary and the comments, I see that two things happened: the diarist apologized and agreed that she will not post that type of commentary about dKos here again and 2) the BT community made it loud and clear that this type of commentary was unwelcome.
So, I go back to my original observations about this diary: why call out an entire community in one fell swoop if this was about one diary? The place to voice dissent was in the comments section of the original diary. Instead, Seattle Liberal took it upon himself to blow this way out of proportion, imho, and to attempt to make it look like that type of commentary is widespread on this site – actually damaging this site as a whole. That’s not true.
And, if you want to take this further in the whole scheme of things, the posters on this site have done exactly what is respected and what was the antithesis of the banning kos did – they challenged that diarist not to post what she did and she agreed not to. This community trusts itself, as does Booman, to police itself. That was the crux of the problem at dkos regarding the bannings. So, if anyone wants to know the difference between the two sites: there you have it. This is not dKos. This is not an addendum to dKos. It’s a completely different site with a completely different manner of dealing with things. And – it works.
Why add to the noise over this issue by posting a seperate diary that goes way beyond the scope of what happned? That’s my beef and yes I’m cranky about it because I feel this is completely unnecessary. It drags out an issue that has already been dealt with. To what end?
Sorry Catnip, I respectfully disagree and I think at least 17 others do as well. And if you feel the venters about kos have a place to write a diary well then so do those who voice their opinion about those diaries. THAT is what i believe Booman is all about. An open forum as long as you are not a prick is the motto.
17 others? What is this now? Some kind of them against me thing?
And if you feel the venters about kos have a place to write a diary well then so do those who voice their opinion about those diaries.
I said I thought this diary was unnecessary. I didn’t call for it to be deleted. The matter has already been dealt with and now the issue has been expanded to include this so called “many” who are disrespecting Booman. Who are they? Is this anti-kos movement on BT as prevelant as Seattle Liberal makes it out to be? Do you agree with the broad brush he’s painted “many” people here with?
An open forum as long as you are not a prick is the motto.
Define not being a prick. Seriously.
Here’s where I border very closely on being a prick and, frankly, I just don’t care today:
Catnip it seems to me that you have been among those who came here and posted your thoughts and challenges about the community and the other community and wrote several diaries before you got the lay of the land here after the pie wars. And frankly you brought a good bit of contention yourself that was uncomfortable to some of us.
So was it much ado about nothing when you brought these issues up.
Seattle has just as much right as you do to speak of the site and his/her feelings and protecting the site or not.
Perhaps new members would want to wait a week or so to get the feel of the site before posting diaries. Or perhaps booman should put in the one week wait for diaries after signing up.
And apparently from your previous writings you did not know that the site takes care of itself, when you decided to come back to this site and post your diaries.
Do you feel the matter is settled, just because it seems settled for you…others don’t and had you been more attentive to this site you would see that we ‘allowed’ you to speak your mind, just as we will ‘allow’ Seattle to speak his mind and is perhaps voicing concerns of many in this community, including me. No we don’t have the solution, but the dialogue is where we can reach a consensus, or not….and that is how we do it here.
and wrote several diaries before you got the lay of the land here after the pie wars.
“Several”? I wrote one when I came over here about the pie wars. I wrote another asking what the site was about so I could figure out how to best contribute here.
As for the rest of your comments about me, I am this close to saying fuck this. If you can’t understand my oppostion to this diary, that’s your problem – not mine.
Actually, I think that’s exactly what I’ll say: fuck this. I don’t need tag team insults.
Have a nice day.
Oooops. . .
This is really none of my business, so you can tell me to butt out if you want. And It is really not my place to be a mind reader here, but it seemed to me like Diane was wondering if it wasn’t valid for Seattle to voice his/her concerns just as it was for you to voice yours. I think that is really all that was being said there.
No one wants you to FO or leave. I think there is some problem of communication here that can be resolved, if you want.
Just my opinion, but I don’t want anyone to leave even if we disagree about things or the why or how of things. Maybe we all should go over to the Cafe and cool off for a bit.
Give it a thought, everyone. . .your call as always but I would like to see us be a bit more supportive of each other if we can, or at least agree to disagree on some of these issues.
but I have a very large nose! What I think catnip was responding to in diane’s post was this:
And frankly you brought a good bit of contention yourself that was uncomfortable to some of us.
When I read that I cringed. Catnip has contributed a LOT to this site (just look through her diaries list) and she was making the same point that I was, that SL painted with too wide of a brush (I notice that I didn’t get jumped on for saying the same thing)….
Catnip has much mroe reason to be insulted by it than I do though because of the many, many “original contributions” she has made. If there is some sort of unconfrtableness or past history going on between diane and catnip, I for one, don’t really want to know about it….
That being said — see you in Cafe! You are much better at the peacemaker role that I ever was Shirl!
I am not disputing Catnip contribution to this site, nor could I respond to all of the commenters in the above long list, I am pointing out that Catnip brought these issues up in her diaries and why is it not fair for Seattle to do so. Because Catnip or whomever says it is settled and should be discussed no more?
And I have no past history with Catnip other than a minor misunderstanding that I know of and no wish to fight with her or anyone.
And yes ‘some’of her diaries as well as comments in the pie war era were uncomfortable for me in relation to the whole pie fiasco, which i as well as others were soon tired of hearing about. Of course I am not saying she was the only one, but she was among them. Has the time now expired for complaining.
Catnips contributions to this site while wonderful, only dates back a couple of weeks, while others of us here have been doing diaries and contributing to this site for months now and working on building this site. By her own words Catnip has said she did not pay attention to this site until the pie wars, and indeed she made very few comments and perhaps one diary prior to that.
So if my wording was offensive to you or Catnip or anyone I apologize for that, but my intentions first and foremost, earlier comments and now were to point out that Seattle has /every right to post this diary/in whatever format he chooses as well at Catnip does.
‘Painted with too wide a brush’ that another whole issue, and one that is very subjective and leads to even more censorship than has already been proposed.
but (and isn’t there alway one?), is it unreasonable for ME (not speaking for catnip, which I admit was stupid to do in the previous post) to suggest that making points like the one(s) that SL wanted to make in this diary within the context of what prompted it is the better way to go??
The diary started off with (paraphrasing) this was going to be a comment but it got to long….is it unreasonable to ask that no matter the length, the comment should go where what it is in response to is clear?
As we have seen from catnip’s response, it would have avoided a lot of misunderstanding and dispersed acrimony…
“is it unreasonable to ask that no matter the length, the comment should go where what it is in response to is clear?”
I am not sure that I understand the point you are making here, but if it is what I think, ‘who will decide the parameters of that’…Well I think you really need to define that a bit more for me…perhaps!
Not everyone can make a point succinctly or tie up random thoughts in a manner that is consise and clear, but who are we or anyone to tell ‘this person’ the lengths and breadths to go and indeed the author was able to flesh his meaning and intentions out in comments, which is usually the case in diaries of this type.
Ok, I was trying to be diplomatic — I ALWAYS get myself in trouble when I do that.
Here is what I meant:
catnip asked a very important question, i.e., “what prompted this?” what I am saying is NOT that anyone come in and be ‘diary police’ or set parameters on what anyone says or can’t say or what is diary-worthy, what I am saying is this:
If you have a problem with what someone is posting then take it up IN CONTEXT!! Whether that context is here or there or everywhere, if one feels the need to rant and rail, the best thing to do is to place it in CONTEXT, even if that context is one person’s reaction at least then the rest of us can avoid making assumptions about who the AUDIENCE for a specific rant is — does that make more sense? Is it at all clear?
Ok, dear Brinnaine, yes I will agree with you on the narrow issue of ‘context'(yes we should have it), but I thought he had done that (at least to my satisfaction)…
And so as not to belabor any points further I will let it rest here.
All the various points taken, some accepted, some not, all neatly filed away in their appropriate files in my old brain now. lol
And now I think I will finally take a minute to go off to the cafe for a rest and refreshments…..
…and I am on your tail! 😉
I am pointing out that Catnip brought these issues up in her diaries and why is it not fair for Seattle to do so. Because Catnip or whomever says it is settled and should be discussed no more?
That is a mischaracterization of my objections to the points made in this diary and, as you’ll see, SL has now admitted that his observations were exagerrated.
And yes ‘some’of her diaries as well as comments in the pie war era were uncomfortable for me in relation to the whole pie fiasco, which i as well as others were soon tired of hearing about. Of course I am not saying she was the only one, but she was among them.
If I made comments that made you uncomfortable, you should have either addressed them when I made them or e-mailed me. BTW, exactly how many anti-dKos comments have I even made on this site?
Catnips contributions to this site while wonderful, only dates back a couple of weeks, while others of us here have been doing diaries and contributing to this site for months now and working on building this site.
Way to diminish my contributions to this site, diane. BTW, I’ve been back here regularly since June 7th – more than “a couple of weeks” – but who’s counting? Does it even matter how long I’ve been back? Have I not contributed to this site? Are you unable to look at the content and quality of my contributions as a whole – choosing instead to measure them by how long you and others have been here? Is that fair? I sure don’t think so.
By her own words Catnip has said she did not pay attention to this site until the pie wars, and indeed she made very few comments and perhaps one diary prior to that.
And why don’t you give the audience a realistic description of the contributions I have made since I came back?
BTW, the bigger question is: why are you going after me instead of the substance of my criticisms of this diary which – and I point this out again – SL has now admitted were true?
Seattle has /every right to post this diary/in whatever format he chooses as well at Catnip does.
I didn’t say SL didn’t have the right to post this diary. I said I felt it was unnecessary. And, considering that we now know the truth of the situation, I feel that my observations were right.
‘Painted with too wide a brush’ that another whole issue, and one that is very subjective and leads to even more censorship than has already been proposed.
What censorship, diane? Who proposed censorship of any kind? It certainly wasn’t me.
For the record, SL admits he did paint this with too wide a brush.
The next time you or anyone else want to discuss a comment of mine – let’s talk about the points I actually make – not me personally because, frankly, this has turned into a very ugly discussion. If you have a personal problem with me, e-mail me. If you don’t – stop trying to diminish my contributions here just because I’ve only become more active recently.
I came this close to leaving this site today. Ask Booman. I e-mailed him my goodbye. Here’s why: one of the reasons that built up my antagonism towards dKos for months was the lack of respect for the minority opinion – not just mine by far. I was tired of the echo chamber scenario and the marginalization of the minority. Having been a member of various minorities throughout my life, nothing pisses me off more in so-called liberal circles than to see that type of dismissiveness. I saw it in my life and I’ve seen it many other places – including lefty blogs. This site was supposed to offer a reprieve from that and it has for me. I don’t want to reach the point where I see that kind of insidious atmosphere here. Today, I did.
Isn’t it bad enough that the right-wing decides to shoot the messenger at every turn instead of arguing the message? Do we have to put up with that kind of behaviour from those who are supposed to be like minded as well? That’s all I ask: if you disagree with my opinion – fine. Let’s talk about it. If you want to talk about me, all bets are off because the point I’m trying to make transcends me and that is what I want to talk about.
Catnip. You have my full support. You have argued your case clearly.
I usually have no desire to take sides, except to support truth, honesty, passion and openness. And flippancy.
I am not a frequent contributor to ‘serious’ diaries. Selfishly, I prefer to tease the pompous and add a smile if I can. But I can apply myself diligently to any cause worth fighting.
As a banned member of another Kos-progeny site (maybe the ONLY banned member!), I experienced exactly what you are going through here. I sympathise.
There’s nothing I can do to help, except to say you are well worth supporting…
I wasn’t going to comment any further in this thread, but then you wrote the above comment to me and another one to Seattle that prompts me to write this now.
Catnip, when I referred to you in my comments it was because of all the accusations you sent Seattles way which I saw as unfair especially in view of the comments and diaries you have done.
I was never referring to your personal life, but rather you as a writer/member of this site. What is ‘good for the goose is good for the gander’ is my view.
I was asked questions as to where my views origniated and I responded…and now you have taken my words point by point and responded, some of them out of context.
If I had a previous problem I would have told you and dealt with it, when I did, which was yesterday, I did confront you directly, isn’t that what you asked. You responded to me in a very angry comment, which I did not do to you.
You appear to speak for the site in your comments, well Seattle and I can speak for the site also and we did.
Censorship…do you not think that you were censoring as well as chastising Seattle in your comments, well I do. You told her the lines and parameters she should have adhered to in your opinion. That is censoring.
Here is the definition of Censor from online dictionary:
3. an adverse critic; faultfinder.
I never tried to diminish your contributions, but was pointing out the inconsistencies in your attitude now and then and your record on this site is an open book for anyone to read, in no way was it personal as I have no personal knowledge of you other than a few emails we exchanged months ago and words you have written here. The problems with pie wars, etc. have been an ongoing problem for us members who have been ‘here for the duration’ and that is just a ‘fact’.
But the general consensus at that time and now is to be tolerant of people expressing their pain and anger over ‘the other site’.
Talk about shooting the messenger, did you not shoot Seattle as the messenger in the above diary with your comments.
I have no wish to fight with you Catnip, or anyone, but neither can I stand by and say nothing when you present your accusation at another long time member of this site in a very confrontational manner. What did she do wrong, she wrote a diary that you did not agree with.
You by your very words said “here’s where I border very closely on being a prick and, frankly, I just don’t care today.” Then went on to give a list of ‘faults’ with the diary. All well and good, I suppose for you to be a “prick” and then fall back on “F..this…I am leaving the site,” when I or anyone challenges your words.”
I don’t see much resolution in your comments either to me or to Seattle as you continue to assert your case, which appears to me to say, “It is ok for me to throw down the gauntlet, but no one dare challenge me.”
I am sorry but I do not buy that.
Is resolution possible catnip, you tell me.
Is resolution possible catnip, you tell me.
The only resolution if for us to ignore each other since you seem to want to continue to treat me as some unruly child while not taking my criticisms of the points raised in this diary seriously.
What is ‘good for the goose is good for the gander’ is my view.
That’s my view too. If someone posts a diary, they should be prepared to deal with criticism. I sure am when I post mine.
And, when someone chooses to go off on me personally because I made criticisms on the substance of a diary, they ought to know that I won’t put up with it.
But the general consensus at that time and now is to be tolerant of people expressing their pain and anger over ‘the other site’.
And I have done that. This diary, however, is not about dkos – it’s about BT, so don’t give me some holier than thou crap about my not being suportive of people around here. That’s what this is, diane. This is about you being condescending to me. Why? Because you don’t like my willingness to challenge someone on facts? Because when someone dishes it out to me in a personal way, I don’t sit back and take it?
Frankly, you and whoever is supporting you by rating your posts against me a 4 amount to a very small number of people here and don’t think I’ll leave just because you think I’m misbehaving. I won’t give you that victory, so just do me a favour and ignore my posts from now on. That’s all I have to say to you on this ridiculously long and drawn out matter.
And – know this – I don’t care who writes what diary around here – if there are factual inaccuracies, I will not hesitate to point them out. I make my points about diaries here based on principles – not personalities.
I know you said you are going to ignore me, but perhaps you will read this.
This is my second version, the first I abandoned as I felt on reflection that it would further this rift between you and I…
So I shall start again…
If I have said anything to you, unintentionally, that caused this anger to rise in you, well I do apologize for that, but as you know words once writ cannot be taken back.
I don’t agree with you assesment of the diary or the comment, that part is pretty clear. If I went too far out to make my point, I apologize for that as I said above, however, bottom line is I disagreed with what you said, told you so, you told me and so on.
Now we are sitting here in the angry arena, both of us, with the site watching to see if and how we will resolve this.
I am unwilling to retain this anger and therefore I am reaching out to you in a conciliatory way. Can we put this aside and start out fresh. We have both had our say, it is fruitless to delve further into this, imo.
I have no beef with you personally Catnip and I do not want you or anyone to leave this site, nor do I wish to leave it myself. So what do you say, can we agree to disagree on this and go on from there with no hard feelings, hopfully. I know I will hold none against you or anyone here for anything that was said in this diary or any other.
Is there a lesson here for us both, I think so. Mine is to be more careful with my wording and be more attentive to the feelings of others.
As to the 4’s rating, catnip, you have plenty of 4’s yourself for your comments, why can’t people rate mine 4.
So, is there any chance for a healing to take place…I am more than willing…
WHOA WHOA WHOA WHOA here, everybody.
This is my business because what I see here are some fairly harsh words between a few of the people I most respect and admire in all the internets. It just about brings me to tears to read this thread because all of you are such an important part of BMT (especially for my experience).
I really, really hope that this can all be forgiven and forgotten (frog-gotten?). Please? Pretty please? Let’s just all take a step back, and take a deep breath. Whew. Whew.
I usually don’t step in the middle of this type of thing, but it is really important to me in this case that this be resolved with no hard feelings because of who is involved.
And if you can’t stand those who choose to defend it then that’s your issue not ours. And if we disagree with you it is a “fuck this”? Real mature discourse.
Did I miss something in this diary, where did tag team insults come from, I don’t remember reading anything that even remotely appeared to resemble anything that could be construed as an insult.
I recognize that you have been and continue to have medical concerns and I am wondering if that is what might be creating some of the issue that you are concerned with at the moment.
I for one hope you don’t Fuck this and disappear, I enjoy your diaries and analysis and you would be deeply missed by this old Indian.
I hope that whatever is happening to you, passes soon and that you will return with the joy and happiness that you so richly deserve.
I respectfully note your objection.
Why did I write this diary?
I wrote this “diary” in part to respond to multiple requests from Boos here who 1) wanted to know what the nature of the purge related crimes were and/or 2) wanted to know why I got bounced.
Selfishly, it was also a cathartic exercise for me, and I do hope it was not an unbearable imposition on others here.
I will not impose in this manner any longer. I really appreciate all of the positive feedback I’ve received, including all of the knowing nods, cups of coffee and smokes at the café, the “right-ons”, the “me-toos” and the virtual hugs.
I can also appreciate the expressed sentiment, by Booman and others, to produce, not destroy. As member to this community, I intend to build, not raze.
I’m almost there, a l’il stuck in the past, but trying to kick it into Boodrive.
PS: Several posters have expressed a desire to not see DKos explicitly derided in sig. lines. I have honored that request.
Truly – this was not aimed at you in particular. The title did spark this – not the comment section or even the content of the diary.
I understand the need for catharsis – that is what this was. Again this is not aimed at you and if you felt that way – I apologize. I’m glad you are here.
We still take our shots at other sites and other opinions….we just do it differently here.
Your thoughtfulness in changing your signature line is appreciated…have a 4!
Catnip,
I have respect for your voice here and when you posted at Kos. I hope this comes across in the manner in which it was intended.
Maybe I did miss a lot of this. Until about a couple of weeks ago I read every diary- every day but recently, have needed to back away. But I have checked in frequently and it seems like when I do there is some negative Kos diary, usually on the Recommended list. So perhaps by the luck of the draw there was a diary with no other intention but to complain about another site featured whenever I stopped by. I have spent time here and this is my opinion, but that is how it looked to me.
Did I exaggerate, yep. Have you ever done anything like that when writing comments or diaries? . . . This is a rhetorical question. And why be insulted if you are contributing, – this wasn’t aimed at you . . . was it? Answer: no. Just a desire to see this site live up to its full potential.
In no way is this a call to not read other blogs or comment about them. Every other blog I read frequently uses posts or comments from other sites to illustrate a point. This is great. Many vehemently disagree with certain posts from other bloggers and use their posts to illustrate the point. No complaints so far. But there are certain types of diaries and comments I see here that are nothing more than personal attacks that are, as you seem to not like so much, cast with a wide net.
As I said above, I understand the in pouring of people here. I am not asking anyone to not talk about Kos or any other blog. That is how this game works. I feel you have missed many of my points and from the tone you have decided to take here, I don’t think any extensive conversation will help. If you have read comments I have made throughout the thread you may understand my intention a little more.
And the great thing about a blog such as this one is that you and I can disagree.
So perhaps by the luck of the draw there was a diary with no other intention but to complain about another site featured whenever I stopped by. I have spent time here and this is my opinion, but that is how it looked to me.
You just told the writer of the most current anti-kos diary (which was not on the reco list, btw) this:
“Truly – this was not aimed at you in particular. The title did spark this – not the comment section or even the content of the diary.”
The “title” sparked this? And your observation that it seems every time you pop by here there seems to be some anti-kos diary on the reco list? How often do you pop by because I can tell you and have told you that is a very infrequent occurence.
Did I exaggerate, yep. Have you ever done anything like that when writing comments or diaries?
If I jumped off a bridge, would you too? I think you need to be very careful if you are justifying your exaggerations as some measure of mine. I am very cautious with my use of words and when it comes to talking about dKos, I have not exaggerated here. I’ll exaggerate about the right-wing, the Republicans, and the WH – only in jest – not about serious, factual issues. And, when it is in jest – people know it is exactly that.
It’s your exaggerations that got me in hot water here with those you backed your diary 100%. I objected and instead of people arguing with the substance of my objections, some turned against me. I know you have no control over others actions, but when you chose to exaggerate and others went along with what you said as the truth, I and others who held the minority opinion – which we see now was actually true – were quickly thrown into the pile of dissenters. You set up that paradigm by your words.
And why be insulted if you are contributing, – this wasn’t aimed at you . . . was it? Answer: no. Just a desire to see this site live up to its full potential.
Was this aimed at me? No. That doesn’t mean I won’t stand up for the integrity of this site any less than you will – and I have.
But there are certain types of diaries and comments I see here that are nothing more than personal attacks that are, as you seem to not like so much, cast with a wide net.
I agree and the particular example you pointed out was dealt with in the diary itself. Then you decided to write this one based on your exaggerations and look what happened.
I feel you have missed many of my points and from the tone you have decided to take here, I don’t think any extensive conversation will help.
What points did I miss that Booman and so many other Tribbers have not made here time and time again – without exaggerating. Booman has been very clear about how he wants this site to operate.
Don’t like my tone? Well, maybe you shouldn’t have exaggerated to make your point. I call out BS in all circles, SL. You should know that by now. I don’t put up with it in politics from any or either side and I don’t put up with it personally. If you had made your points in more realistic terms, I probably would have agreed with you and moved on. You didn’t. So yes, my tone was to challenge what you wrote. And, unfortunately, you posted your update and this comment to me late enough in the game that it’s already caused damage. I don’t appreciate that because when I speak the minority opinion, I think I’m owed some consideration. Instead, some here chose to stand up for what you wrote and rail against me personally in the process. That was an avoidable occurence and I hope you’ll temper your exaggerations in the future based on what’s happened. That’s all I asked for in the first place.
Above, you call my opinion BS. It is an opinion based on my observations, and I still believe there was a valid point to it.
Is it 24/7, no . . . does it happen more than I am comfortable with . . . yes. You can not completely dismiss the points I was trying to make here with this diary because you point out there were some exaggerations. That is called a “straw man” which, ironically, uses an exaggeration to knock down an argument – “SL exaggerated, therefore my complete dismissal of this diary is valid”. I also reserve the right to call BS when I see it.
I didn’t make any of my feelings up, and my opinion of the tone I observed remains unchanged. You may not agree with me, and that is your prerogative, but there was nothing I consider a lie here. I think there is a difference.
By your own admission, you did not start to get serious here until Kos made his hideous statements. “I didn’t take the time to check out Booman Tribune that much. – catnip.” I was here before the wars happened, and think I am well able to spot a change in the community tone. This is not meant as any competition because, certainly, you are a valuable and active voice here currently. My point is that you told me I should get the feel for the tone before posting. I ask with all due respect – how can you tell me what it was like here before you arrived?
Everything I said is from personal observations I made while here. It was aimed at the community here. What good would it do to post it elsewhere?
If you want me to name names, I can, but I actually considered that to be more rude than making a general observation. And the only person that “lumped” you into the word “many” . . . was you. I’d like to point out that this, also, is an exaggeration.
I didn’t use this to justify my errors. It was written after I observed you use the same technique you criticize me for. And yours are O.K. because you understand the context of them? Or is there another justification? And the “bridge” statement sounds suspiciously close to a “do as I say” kind of statement.
No, the sky is not falling and nothing I said implied it. Would this be an exaggeration? Just asking.
Am I to understand I am supposed to think about how my posts will effect you before I make them? I really don’t think this is what you mean – is it? I did try not to swear or single any individual out as a target. I made an observation that this was a site separate from Kos and hoped it would remain so.
And I believe that if you reread the responses you say are aimed at your “minority opinion”, I think you will find that the comments do not agree with my opinion – only my right to express it.
And sorry catnip, I do have a right to an opinion about this site, just as you do. And a right to defend myself. Sorry you felt personally “damaged” here, not my intentions. But since you made multiple posts in this thread dismissing my opinion, and attacking me personally, my tone in this response is not happy. I hope you can understand the reasons, and that you and I can move on from this little altercation.
OT – ghostdancer mentioned above you are still not feeling well. I sincerely hope that you are on the road to recovery. I know it has been a difficult year for you and I do wish you well.
Good Night.
What was the point of making your mea culpa about the exaggerations? All I see is your backing away from that now. I’m not going to give you a point by point response here because that is a waste of time. I already did that and now I’m getting chewed out – yet again.
The only good thing that has come out of your posting this diary, from where I sit, is that some hidden animosity from some towards me has come out in the open. Now I know who’s uncomfortable having me around here. Good. Now I know who to ignore while they pretend to actually care about my presence here.
And, SL, I did not call your OPINION BS. I called you on what you stated to be facts. You admitted your exaggerated those facts. That’s what I rebutted. Seriously, I think you need to step back and take a look at that angle because that’s exactly where I was coming from.
I think you both got piled on in this diary somewhat unfairly. I hope you make up and form a support group for the rest of us.
Is there a support group for insomniacs?
I need one. Although, I slept and woke up in the middle of the night, which is different from my usual problem of not being able to fall asleep in the first place.
I took a nap after work today after the outrage overload due to the torture stuff at Gitmo. I found myself dreaming about this blog and horrified to find that you had decided to copy-cat the new CSS format at Kos. I think my inner-voice shook me awake so I could check to make sure the pond was still in order. Hehehe, this is Exhibit A that I need to be a part of the support group…
One for each of you
For all the obvious reasons
He has offered a place where your voice matters. So use your voice – HERE. Can’t you hear him subtly begging for you all to use this place for its intended purpose? He is too kind and polite to come right out and say it – because he is caring. I feel, frankly, many of you are taking advantage of his kindness and walking all over him. I don’t like seeing friends treated this way.
Do you agree with those statements, Booman?
the posters who appear to be pretty angry and negative about Kos may not enjoy themselves here, unless they modify their attitudes. If they don’t find what they need here, they will move on and the situation will resolve itself. Rants are acceptable here, but unrelenting negative and sarcastic MO’s, my guess is, (I’m relatively new), are not. A totally hackneyed cliche but – when in Rome…
I interpreted “Kossack lynching forthcoming” as humor, and a way to poke fun at the “purgings” at Dailykos. The diary doesn’t appear offensive at all. Sometimes, issues need to be worn out, before people can move on.
Sorry, Dailykos is a news item, simply because of its success, visibility, and membership, numbering in the thousands. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the frying pan, which is what many did and moved here.
What I hope doesn’t get transplanted from Dailykos is the undying need to control the thoughts, feelings and impulses of participating members. It seems that members here do a good job of policing themselves.
You Got It. I’d like to buy you a drink. Shall we head to the FBC Café for happy hour?
I could use one. Meet ya there. Been working on a paper on school prayer. What a political minefield.
I pray that you’ll turn your paper into a diary entry.
…Over the misuse of the terms ‘upthread’ and ‘downthread’.
Comments are temporally linear, but not necessarily hierarchically displayed. Comments to comments are hierarchical, but not necessarily temporally displayed.
Depending on your user settings, their physical display on the page may follow a number of hierarchical scenarios based on the time stamp.
Now as I understand it, the conventions of up and down are the same as those applied to streams of any kind. From any particular standpoint on the timeline, up means towards the source – down means away from the source – with the flow of the stream being always gravitational.
Thus ‘downthread’ would mean a posted comment later in the timeline than the comment in which the phrase is used. In the temporal sense this would mean ‘in the future’
Now you are going to have to pay exceptional attention to what follows, in order not to suffer neuronal shock: a stand-alone comment could not reference a downthread comment because the downthread comment would be in the future i.e. not in existence at the time of the aforementioned comment. Unless of course the poster of the comment had foreknowledge of what future as-yet unwritten comments might contain.
A comment to a comment however, can reference a downthread comment where the comment to a comment is placed under a comment with a timestamp preceding the referred to comment.
BTW None of this type of Existential Blog Positioning was possible before the General Theory of Relativity in 1916. Before this date, Blogging was limited to gravitional notions of fixed time. As we all now know, it is not time that is fixed, but the speed of light.
Any of you who are still reading this must be totally nuts. Stop reading now. Move along. I said stop! Look this is just going to keep on meandering through a complex sequence of non sequiturs Stop reading!
Thank you. At last. I simply feel there are more important things to discuss than Whining and Dining over lost website affiliations. Stop now.
so that is why I get a headache when I try to read the downthreads, before the upthreads, that really never were in a thread in the first place.
Don’t know about you ghost, but I have some weird user settings that rearrange everything with every refresh. And of course, I then go and rate someone before I’ve read everything new – which erases any mark of which comments are new. So then I have to go read them all again.
You can fix that in the protected settings, you know…
:^)
Black Hawk isn’t the only one then? OK Ms Clever Clogs, tell me how 😉
Okay…go to your user page tab, click on “settings”. When you get to the settings page, scroll down to where it says “protected settings” in red. You need to enter your password to get into these.
I believe the default setting is for “highest rated comments first”, which is why you are having the somewhat psychedelic experience of everything changing everytime you hit refresh! Change the setting to chronological and you should be good to go!
xoxo,
Ms. Clever Clogs
;^)
I’m going to try that, and if it doesn’t work you’ll get a good spanking.
See that’s what you get for being helpful 😉
Actually the only thing I’m really missing is ‘seeing red’.
I would like a (technically impossible) button on all diaries that flushes all ‘new’ markers when you decide and not before.
Thanks!
It would make it MUCH easier for me to stop reading if the diary were not on the recommended list — would you be willing to unrecommend?
But it’s still on MY hotlist 😉
You’re da best, Sven!!
All diaries deserve an upperdown thread! It’s in the constitution. Or the FAQ. or something… if not, I just made it up! (It works for some people).
That is a new concept – ‘Filiblogging’. The art of writing endless reams of words in a single comment that prevent an up or down thread.
The only way round it is a ‘recess post’
😉
Dearest Sven, I think you have a thread loose.
Or possibly you are one thread short of a spool?
No, I’m merely slightly unravelled.
It is a golden rule of weaving – check from whence the thread comes before you pull on it.
But on the other hand, all good fiction depends on the dénouementfor structural completion. And what does that mean, I hear you ask? ‘The Unravelling’
Ah, then we hope we are watching the denouement of the Bush administration.
‘Better dead, than thread’
I think you have made some good points.
I signed up before the pie fights, because I enjoyed some of booman’s contributions at kos. I had no doubts which side I was on during the pie fights. Actually, this was the first time I fully understood, not just at a intellectual level but also at a emotional level, what the women’s movement in the seventies was all about. I don’t agree with Kos’s agenda, but I like the dynamics of his site, and I would love to see some of that here.
I do believe that there is a too much identifying of what BT is not, instead of what it is.
I also believe that conflict = friction = energy.
I think Kos is a little to much yang but I fear there is too much yin here. True harmony requires a balance.
but I like the dynamics of his site, and I would love to see some of that here.
What dynamics, specifically? Just curious…
I guess emotions running high.
I noticed that I am more involved when there are some major disagreements going.
I read the diaries at Booman’s, and I find many of them real high quality. I just don’t stay around for the discussions. Once everybody agrees or respectfully disagrees, what is there to talk about.
At kos I can rant at some jerk who thinks a woman’s right to an abortion is negotiable. During the pie fight I learned a lot about myself. It helped me to articulate the discomfort I sometimes feel with how I am treated as a woman. It also made me more appreciative of the feminist’s fight in the seventies.
I am just observing my actions and feelings. I am not saying the portrait I paint is accurate.
I see your point. There’s definitely an intensity there that you don’t find here (present diary excepted). That can create a rather boring atmosphere but both dynamics have downsides, as we’ve seen from some of the out of control discussions at dKos. I guess the key is balance.
I wouldn’t call it a boring atmosphere. I do feel that the ‘we are not Dkos’ permeates the site even when Dkos is not mentioned, every time somebody remarks how nice and civil this place is(as compared to the other site).
And that is where I agree with the diarist. Trying not to be like dkos is just as confining as trying to emulate them, and I think will suppress some of the potential of Booman trib to grow and change or in other words be a dynamic site.
Okay. I get that now. It’s true. My first reaction was that it is that way because it’s s spin off, but there are other spin off sites that have not turned out that way – although many more kossacks here are refugees as opposed to just members who started other blogs, so that probably contributes. The sticky part is crafting a solution.
I agree that some of the dynamics of dkos are fun… that’s why the more controversial topics get high ratings, and hundreds of comments, with people ranting at each other right and left, and throwing comment ratings and insults around and basically having grand old time. When the pie war refugees came, I fully expected any number of them not to stay around for long… this was sort of resting place, a temporary refuge, if you will. But, as you mention, we do not in general have the same dynamics as dkos.
Where I believe you may be mistaken, however, is in that we, as a community, are trying not to be the dkos site. It’s only natural that that would be your assumption, especially as there was so much emphasis on how we were different, right after the pie wars… but that was basically to let people know that even tho we looked like kos… the BooTrib isn’t dkos.
What most of the community has been doing from the beginning, though, is not building a ‘not kos’ site, but working to build a BooTrib community. I, personally, don’t relate all my actions to “is this like kos or not like kos”. Or, “if we do this, we’ll be kos, but if we don’t do this, would people think we are trying not to be like kos?” Or anything else… speaking only for myself, I don’t much care about kos or how we relate to it.
For whatever reason, the members have chosen almost from the beginning to interact with each other respectfully, even in disagreement… and to allow room for discussions on various topics, and explorations of spirituality, or difficult personal issues, or abortion and rape and so on. In fact, Lorraine had a diary up about rape the other day… I can’t for the life of me figure out how that could have been enhanced by having someone in there ranting that all women were sex objects anyway, or whatever, so that people could rant back.
Anyway, it’s early and I’m still only on my second cup of coffee… I think I wanted to say that… for people who need the dynamics of fiery disagreement and ranting, there are plenty of places to get that. This may well be one of them, sometime in the future, although I hope not. But things do change. If they do, I hope they change in a BooTrib manner, because at the end of the day, that is what this community is.
Group Hug. Anyone?
:O)
:O) :O)
:O) :O)
:O) :O)
:O) :O)
:O)
lol!
Um… Do you understand how condescending that is? I’ve seen other explanations of what is happening over at that site, and they matched what I saw myself back when I frequented it. Your ‘take’ on the matter couldn’t be farther from the truth. I do like how everyone that disagrees with that site owner’s version of “reality” is automatically against rational thought. Good job with the broad-brushed attack.
Why so thin-skinned about criticism of a blog? Do you get this worked up over criticisms of Democratic politicians, labor unions, Newsweek, …
I get your main point: “This is hard on me, it makes me feel awkward.” I believe the rule at the “other site” is “If it bothers you, don’t read it.” Luckily, Bootrib is a kinder place. Perhaps if you’d tried a kinder approach that didn’t paint everyone who disagreed with you as irrational idiots with an axe to grind…
Myself, I like frank open discussions. As long as none of the participants in the discussion are being personally disrepected, its all good.
Its too bad you chose to write a diary who’s primary purpose was to attack a large group of Boo-tribbers. I see you say it wasn’t your intention, but it was certainly your effect.
Funny, it seems to the be self-styled ‘defenders of dKos’ who stir up the most dirt and contention around here…
*sweeps out the dirt and goes back to real issues of the day*
and focus on the issues. This is not about DailyKos. It’s about America.
Personally I use both. I cant say I’m too impressed with Daily KOS these days but I still feel it is worth posting comments that diverge from their narrow line to create debate. However, I do like this site. It is different and it has a lot friendlier membership and a lot more mutual understanding. I hope we dont destroy this.
Oh there is one thing I think would improve this site which is not seeing all those “cross posted at…” remarks. Dont know why but they really piss me off.
Anyway it Boomans baby and he seems to be doing a fine job. Hopefully Booman Trib will continue to move in its own unique direction and not lurch into mirroring any other site.
I for one don’t see much of a problem here. Looking at the list of diaries, I see relatively little about Kos or his front-pagers. There has been some venting regarding how Markos has handled things over at his site. That has tended to die down, as near as I can figure. Maybe that’s the thing: these things have a way of dying down on their own, usually in a relatively short period of time. No big whoop.
Onwards.