Let’s talk about what it means to be undercover, or a covert agent. Here is a breakdown of the different degrees of cover given to CIA employees:
Light cover. Many of the CIA’s analysts and scientists fall under this category. Their families and friends might know who they really work for, but publicly, they claim to be employed by some other innocuous government agency or group. One former intelligence officer described this as “the cover you use if your airplane gets hijacked”: It’s safe enough to use on a quick visit overseas, say to meet with intelligence counterparts in a friendly country, but insufficient cover for spies stationed abroad.
Official cover. Most CIA employees engaged in operations overseas are given official cover: a sham job in the U.S. embassy (or working for another government agency) that affords them diplomatic immunity. These spies work under varying degrees of secrecy—the CIA station chief in a major ally nation may be well-known on the diplomatic cocktail circuit, but his subordinates, who actually recruit new informants, may not be. Such spies probably confide in their immediate families, but otherwise are unlikely to reveal their true occupation. (Although some operatives working in allied nations are “declared” officers, which means the CIA informs the host government that they are spies.) The advantage of official cover is that if officers are caught, they enjoy the benefits of diplomatic protection; at worst, they’d be publicly outed and sent home in disgrace.
Nonofficial cover. NOCs (the word rhymes with “rocks”) are the most covert CIA operatives. They typically work abroad without diplomatic protection (often they pretend to work for some commercial enterprise). If these spies are caught, there’s no guarantee that the United States would admit their true identities. When using official cover could put a spy’s life and work at risk, NOC is the only alternative.
People are arguing over whether on not Valerie Plame was operating with non-official cover, as if that matters. It doesn’t. Let’s look at the relevent clause in the statute:
The United States is taking ‘affirmative actions’ to conceal the relationship of all it officers, whether they have official or non-official cover. They are all covert agents working undercover. The only possible exceptions to this are when we ‘declare’ an officer to a foreign government. Even then, though, we are still not broadcasting their identity to the whole world. We are still providing them with some cover.
So, it doesn’t matter whether Plame had official cover, or non-official cover. But, just in case you really care, the NY Times reported back on October 2, 2003:
That cover story, standard for American operatives who pretend to be diplomats or other federal employees, was not an option for Ms. Plame, people who knew her said on Wednesday. As a covert operative who specialized in nonconventional weapons and sometimes worked abroad, she passed herself off as a private energy expert, what the agency calls nonofficial cover.
I suppose that the leakers could argue that a CIA employee that was openly telling their friends that they worked at the agency was not undercover, or covert. But officers that are pretending to work at the state or treasury departments are being given ‘affirmative’ cover. This whole thing is a double red herring.
it’s all bs Booman:
Here’s her neighbors talking about her:
and here’s a site to Kevin Drum’s Washington Monthly post that gives names of all the former CIA who back her story that she was a NOC: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2003_10/002318.php
Larry Johnson, counterroism expert and former CIA colleague of hers, also chimed in about this big lie at TPM Cafe here.
but my point is that the statute says a covert agent. That language is unfortunate. An ‘agent’ is normally not even an regular employee of the CIA, but a contract employee.
Actual employees are called ‘officers’ or ‘operatives’.
But setting that ambiguity aside, the clear intent of the statute is to protect the secrecy of our whole intelligence community.
If we create a false cover for a CIA officer by, say, giving them the title of liasion officer at the US Embassy in Beirut, we are taking affirmative actions to hide the relationship to the CIA.
You can’t out such an officer just because they are not a NOC.
We need to get off this topic about whether she fits th staute or not. First, Fitzgerald will be the guy dealing with the legal niceties of whatever statute is involved. Certainly the CIA referred this to Justice assuming a crime had been committed. I’m more than willing to wait for indictments. Fitzgerald by all accounts is a bulldog as prosecutors go. Make that Pit Bull, lol.
In any event, the bar shouldn’t be whether Rove might slide by under some legal technicality, the bar should be if you disclose the identity of CIA agents for political purposes you shouldn’t be working for the President of the United States. Period.
could get by it, but we are in a spin machine, and the facts have to be presented forcefully, or their version of the truth will take over.
Yes, ultimately, Fitzgerald will determine what the truth is. In the meantime, their utter dishonesty needs to be exposed because it is most instructive.
the bar should be if you disclose the identity of CIA agents for political purposes you shouldn’t be working for the President of the United States. Period.
That’s kind of where it gets circular because you then have to know if Rove knew her status and thus caused damage.
I think he should be fired because he’s an ass, but that won’t get us very far…
Oh, let’s face it. Joe Wilson probably leaked the name of his wife to Judy Miller knowing she would leak it to Rove who would leak it to Novak so Joe could eventually write a book about it and make lots of money, try to get Rove fired, and spawn an even bigger swarm of hate mail to Robert Novak than he’s ever seen before.
Case Closed.
Love,
Karl Rove
Karl Rove is saying that he heard from Bob Novak that Valerie Plame was CIA operative. Doesn’t this mean that they can now just blame this whole thing on Judith Miller, who isn’t talking?
I’m sure others have asked this question. Someone please set me straight.
You are just a little off.
Rove claims that he heard that Wilson’s wife was a CIA operative from an unnamed and forgotten reporter.
According to Rove, Novak asked him to confirm whether Wilson’ wife worked at the CIA, but Rove merely said that he had heard that rumor. Novak’s story is different.
But none of this matters.
Imagine that you are a high ranking member of the Kerry administration. A reporter calls you and asks you whether Joe Smith works for the CIA.
You can’t confirm that information. If you think it is true, you still need to check on their status within the CIA to learn whether they are undercover. There is no defense for failing to do so.
It’s handy how he came up with that “I forgot” defense, huh?
I agree that there is no excuse. But we don’t know if that narrative will play.
My point is that because Miller isn’t talking, the press can infer (and they will, if given half a chance) that there is a third person who is the real leaker, and that this is the person Miller is protecting.
Isn’t this TANG all over again?
there is a third leaker.
Rove broke the law. That’s all I’m saying. Even if he heard the news from a reporter, and even if he never confirmed it to Novak, he still broke the law when he leaked to Cooper.
Are we sure that there is a third leaker? How can we prove there is if Miller never talks? There may not be a third leaker, only the inference of one, which would give Rove all the political cover he needs to worm out of this.
We’ll have to see how it all plays out, but a smell a huge fucking rat on this one.
I hope I’m just being overly cynical.
I don’t fully understand your theory.
Let’s take Cooper:
We know that he had two sources, and we are fairly positive that they were Karl Rove and Scooter Libby.
We know that Walter Pincus talked to Scooter Libby.
We know that Novak talked to Rove and one other administration official.
So, Libby is a leaker, and Rove is a leaker. We now suspect that a reporter may have been a original leaker as well. Perhaps it was Miller, perhaps there is no reporter, perhaps it was a different reporter.
My point is that they can spin this anyway they want, and Rove still committed a crime when he told Cooper that Wilson’s wife was a CIA officer.
There is a much bigger story here, including potential perjury, obstruction of justice, and possibly even an impeachable offense for Cheney and/or Bush.
But what we know for sure is that Rove cannot use the excuses he is attempting to use to avoid criminal charges.
Even if Plame was only operating with official cover, and even if Rove thought she had no cover, and even if Rove didn’t originate the leak, and even if he never confirmed it to Novak, he still broke the law when he talked to Cooper. And it doesn’t matter at all whether he used her name.
You’re much more well-versed then I when it comes to the intricacies of this story, Boo, so some of what you’re mentioning is lost on me, and I do not dispute it.
My point is this, and this alone: if one person accuses another person of something, and the second person refuses to say anything in his or her own defense, then the usual result is to credit the former and discredit the latter.
Could Miller be running interference for the administration, or do I need a tin-foil hat?
Miller could be protecting herself, or protecting a source other than Rove or Libby.
But it doesn’t matter.
Rove is doomed to be indicted for his leak to Cooper alone.
They may think they can wiggle out of it, but his excuses are not adequate legal excuses.
Rove cannot plausibly assert that he didn’t know she was a covert agent. All CIA officers are covert, with only a couple of exceptions. Obviously, Novak is not going to ask if Rove can confirm that Plame is a CIA officer if she is not undercover.
I certainly hope you’re right, but please forgive me If I don’t hold my breath on this one.
Miller is in place to be the perfect scapegoat because she refuses to say anything.
Oh, and Fitzgerald could end up becoming the next Archibald Cox, before this is over.
I’d like to think we have them by the short hairs, I’m just not sure that we do. They’re so slippery.
I’m keeping my fingers crossed.
Oh, and I just watched Washington Week, where Doyle McManus said that it was Novak who told Rove about Plame, my whole reason for this discussion.
I should have been clearer about that.
Oh, and I just watched Washington Week, where Doyle McManus said that it was Novak who told Rove about Plame, my whole reason for this discussion.
Interesting. Find the link to the Crooks and Liars Lou Dobbs video in this thread and you’ll see that Lou Dobbs also pins it on Novak. I don’t know if that was a mistake, but…
Can we send Novak to jail now? Please?
I’m probably wrong about all of this (I usually am) but it seems to me that there is a narrative emerging: Novak told Rove about Plame. But who told Novak? Miller? Would Miller go on the record and say, “no,” or would she continue to keep her mouth shut? If the latter, then how can we ever pin this thing on Rove? It would give him a potential “out,” in other words.
Let’s hope Fitzgerald doesn’t run into this dead end.
Rove cannot plausibly assert that he didn’t know she was a covert agent. All CIA officers are covert, with only a couple of exceptions.
Hold the phone. They’re all covert? That doesn’t male sense – or is “officers” the operative word there?
Cooper is going to be on Howie’s Reliable Sources on Sunday and is apparently writing up something for Time too, so I guess we’ll see what else he has to say.
And, while we’re discussing the intracies, the meme out there seems to be to follow the lie that spawned all this: Bush lied to get the US into the Iraq War and thousands have died. That’s the bottom line.
So…where is Libby’s name in all of this ballyhooed media coverage?
Libby equals Cheney, right?
Google news as of 11:30 AM, 7/16.
<Libby + Plame> 549 hits
<Rove + Plame> 5,130 hits
AND…Libby is mentioned only in passing in most of those 549 hits. Rove is the target.
Plus…where the hell IS Cheney?
Whenever the shit hits the fan, his proven effective tactic is to just…POOF!!!…disappear until it all blows over.
I mean…we all know he’s the real power here, don’t we?
Semi-President Butch and Big Brother Dick?
Big Dick Brother?
Connect LIBBY to this thing, and pinning Cheney is only one step further.
We are all SOOOOO grateful that an anti-BushCo story is finally being covered by the coporate media that we are missing the REAL story.
Red Herring Karl.
Ask yourselves…why ARE the media covering this when they emphatically did NOT cover:
The 2000 election theft.
The patently false runup to the invasion of Iraq.
The 2004 election theft.
The real powers behind the Abu Ghraib shame.
The ASTOUNDING amount of graft going on amongst the Hallibuton-type “contractors” of the war in Iraq.
The real casualty counts of that war. On BOTH sides.
The Gannon/Guckert thing.
The DSM info.
Galloway’s testimony in Congress.
And literally dozens of OTHER potentially damaging anti-BushCo stories.
The same people are running the media system, right? They owe the same allegiances to the same powers.
And yet now, suddenly…it’s “Rove Rove Rove Rove Rove Rove Rove!!!“
This stinks to high heaven, as far as I am concerned.
Rove is just a talented gofer. If this was a gang scene, he’d be one they send out to the corner to pick up a whore when they are bored or score for some blow.
And that guy ALWAYS takes the fall.
For the Teflon Don.
Always.
Go after Cheney, and you tear the heart out of this administration.
Cheney.
Go after Rove, and the very BEST thing that can happen is that Butch will be forced to resign.
Leaving Cheney to crawl out from underneath whatever rock or hospital bed he has been hiding and assume his proper title.
President Cheney.
Plus…then HE could run in ’08. If he is healthy enough to do so. Or they can pin the whole thing on their blame muffin Butch and start fresh. I would not in the least bit be surprised if this whole THING is being run as an operation to discredit an already failed President so that they can get a head start on ’08.
That’s what I would try to do, if I was a Rat.
Bet on it.
Never change horses in misdtream?
Well…maybe.
But FRONTMEN?
In a NY minute.
Get Cheney now, while the getting’s good.
FORGET about Rove—>Butch.
Libby—>CHENEY.
THAT’S where the action is!!!
Later…
Doesn’t this mean that they can now just blame this whole thing on Judith Miller, who isn’t talking?
Actually, I think this will have broader effects than that. Imagine, if you will, the new hit movies “Look Who’s Not Talking Now” and “Six Degrees of Treasonous Separation”. Oh – and a new version of “Armageddon” with Karl Rove as the hero who triumphs over evil press people everywhere (with Scotty in tights as his sidekick). Watch for the video games and action figures too. This could be good for the economy, so everybody wins. How cool is that?
….and, like I have to sign a paper that says I can not divulge/release anything about a patient except to the person that the pt.s says I can release information to; the government has that thing too. Once you sign on that dotted line you are cupabale of keeping your agreement,. Anyone involved with security clearences, and I was once upon a time, you have to sign on that line to that effect. case closed. They broke their agreement, no matter what the case. They must face the music, so to speak.
Obviously, I’ve so completely lost my mind over all of this Friday Rovefest news dump crap that I’m currently unable to discuss these matters with anything nearing rationality anymore.
Does anyone have cheesecake?
I may be an only child, but my parents always taught me to share:
Buen provecho!
So now the story is that Rove only heard it from Novak. If this is true then why did Rove’s lawyer release the statement that Rove didn’t “knowingly” release her name? Which is it? Just hear it, or release it?
Okay first I need a piece of that GD cheesecake seeing the cafe was closed when I got there at o’dark thirty last night. I have been f’ing stewing all day over the way the GD media is spinning this for Rove. I REALLY can’t stand it anymore. Novak told the President of the f’ing United States’ closest advisor who has security clearance who Plame was and that she worked at the CIA. Give me a f’ing break. If and this is a huge if this is the truth ROVE still went to other journalists with that information. I am not kidding when I say I am literally flipping out. We have to have our own talking points and they must be consistant from our side. The rep spin machine don’t even bother keeping their “talking poiints memos” secret for Jeepers sake. Where are our consist mems this is about outing a covert cia agent in order to cover up the lies that led us to the GD ILLEGAL war. GOD when will we get that message across.
We should have someone like Boxer on every news station like they have Mehlman spewing his crap. Cnn gives that lying sack of crap all the air time he wants. WTF?
Sorry, about this rant but I am soooooooooooooo angry I like Catnip cannot even think straight anymore. Please forgive the profanity but I just cannot help myself right now.
Oh boy. Hang in there Alohaleezy. I’m just as disgusted as you are, but we had to know that they would try something didn’t we? They’re to friggin crafty to just get steamrolled without a fight. As far as I’m concerned, this latest load of bullshit is pretty lame and won’t get them off the hook in the end, just buy some more time. Let’s see what happens Monday to Bush’s grilled spokeshole McClellan. I think the press knows that Rove has a fatal wound. It’s just taking him a little longer to bleed out than we thought.
Now…..I’m off to find you and Catnip some GD cheesecake :O)
Thank you for your voice of reason. I am going to put my jammies on and find a stupid movie on the boob tube. Try to decompress. Ugh! This is why I love this site so much. We help each other get through the nightmare.
Alohaleezy, check out this video of the Lou Dobbs show on Cnn. As Dobbs is introducing the story about Roves new angle that we’ve been talking about here, you can hear a female voice whisper on mic, ‘that’s bullshit’. Not a real big deal, but every little bit counts right?
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2005/7/15.html#a3964
Oh my God, that is so great!!!! Wish ir had been a little louder. Hope someone can enhance it and bring it out more. I’m off to bed. Hope tomorrow is a better day. I am vowing not to watch any news for the weekend for my own sanity…lol!
Here’s the thing: Valerie Plame was NOC. That’s beyond dispute, because she was “working” for the fake company Brewster-Jennings and Associates, and low-level CIA employees don’t work for fake companies. And the CIA doesn’t refer charges to the Justice Department for outing CIA secretaries.
And once an NOC operative, always an NOC operative. In other words, there is never a good time to identify these operatives. Even if she was no longer actively working under cover, all her collegues and contacts don’t just vanish when she retires, or changes assignments, or whatever. So any argument that she was no longer an operative is horseshit.
Now maybe these journalists and leakers didn’t really know she was so deep undercover. So maybe they can’t be prosecuted under the statute. But if they really cared about the war on terror, and protecting those people that are on the front lines of that war, who do the scary-dangerous shit that our soldiers and spies do so we don’t have to, then there should have been an “Oh, shit!” moment for these journalists and leakers when they realized the damage they had done. And there should have been outrage, real outrage, from the Commander in Chief, the leader of the free world, our President.
But so far no one has expressed regret for this outrageous occurance. And the President is not outraged; he’s totally comfortable kicking back and letting the criminal investigation run it’s course. And I guess if there’s no criminal conviction, everybody in the White House will still have their job.
Real Americans don’t commit treason, and don’t protect traitors.