more indignation from Liberal Street Fighter
Growing up can seem so daunting, for both the child and the parent. In our society, parenting is primarily described as protecting or sheltering children. Pedophiles seem to be around every corner, judging by the relentless string of reports in the Infotainment Media. Families are pummeled by commercialism, economic pressures, consumerism … how, oh how to protect these poor, fragile flowers from such a harsh, cruel world?
Some feel, as I discussed in Nanny Party, that government should pressure businesses and creators to censor or label “offensive” or “dangerous” ideas and images. This isn’t true just from the right, but also many on the left, as well.
Politicians, of course, LOVE issues that allow them to appear to be doing something, holding committee meetings and news conferences trupeting grand proposals to help parents protect their children:
“We should all be deeply disturbed that a game which now permits the simulation of lewd sexual acts in an interactive format with highly realistic graphics has fallen into the hands of young people across the country,” (Hillary) Clinton wrote in a letter to the head of the Federal Trade Commission.
“The development of adolescents is largely dependent on the environmental influences that are present in a child’s daily life,” said Senator Santorum. “Media is such a prevalent and influential presence in our society that it is important that we understand the impact it has on our youth. Hopefully, through a better understanding of the power of media, we can use it in a healthy and productive way to educate our children.”
Is the primary, or only, function of parents and government to PROTECT children? If so, and we successfully shelter them from ALL “harm,” how then do children make the transition to adulthood?Of course, there are real dangers that children, that ALL of us, need to be protected from, and government action is often chosen as a way to do that. Police, the Military, various agencies like the FDA, EPA and OSHA are tasked with various goals to help protect people from harm. People buy insurance to spread risk out amongst a larger population, to help people weather and recover from inevitable hardships that come into their lives.
Americans have a view of themselves that they are self-reliant, yet parents are often insistent that their values should be the only influences that children are exposed to. Frequent demands arise that society help them to protect their children. Some, like child-proof caps and improvements in automobile safety, have been quite successful in reducing accidental death and injuries of children.
It seems obvious that such moves by government have been beneficial. One would think that we would take those successes and use them as an impetus to make further moves to protect children from environmental degradation, deteriorating schools and a hollowed out economy, but instead some promote the idea that children should be protected from poisonous ideas and images.
I think that the entire idea that the ONLY way to help children grow up is to protect them from a harsh world is incredibly wrongheaded. Yes, protect them from physical dangers, as much as is humanly possible, but there is only so much cloistering one can do before children are stunted by it.
I would submit that the primary responsibilty of parents is to prepare a child for adulthood, not spring it on them when they magically cross some legal threshold. To try to shield children under eighteen from sexual imagery or violence, or even radical ideas, provides for a young adult who is unable to make judgements of their own.
Protection is the wrong paradigm for parenting. A parent girds their child to face the world. Seeking to wall off the world’s temptations and distractions does them ill service. It is no coincidence that some of the wildest kids we all knew growing up were the children of the local policemen, politicians and ministers. Children instinctively know that they have to confront risk and challenges in order to grow. It is no coincidence that children have gone out and reveled in extreme sports, and that children have reportedly made oral sex a casual part of growing up.
It is easy to blame the culture for this, but it’s clear to me that parents, and our schools, refusal to actually engage children as they grow up on the nature of risk and temptation leads to their risk taking. As mysteries are hidden behind veils and v-chips and filtering software, children naturally seek out the forbidden. By refusing to allow them to be naturally exposed to the vagaries of life, children are left with few tools that enable them to take care of themselves.
Parenting is a hard task, but it’s primary purpose is preparation, not protection. A child becomes and independent adult by learning how to filter and evaluate information that comes their way. Filtering it for them does not prepare them to do that. This isn’t, of course, a suggestion that we toss hardcore porn into children’s bedrooms when they’re toddlers. The hard facts of life are that parenting is hard, and it requires a level of involvement and attention that is truly awe-inspiring. Guidance and openness are the rules to follow, not repression and suppression.
This is, of course, easy for me to say, not being a parent myself. In fact, that single fact will enable some to disregard all the words above. I was, however, a child once, and an uncle now. I was blessed with books placed in my hands before I entered kindergarten. If there were limitations in my ability to ask my parents about issues I was curious about, they were limitations created by my own embarrassment than my parents’ lack of openness. Raise your children how you want. If you want to keep the TV off, send them to Sunday School every week, then that is your right and your choice. You, and your child, will have to deal with the consequences of those choices. However, I draw the line at you telling me, telling OTHER parents, what is or isn’t “proper” art or entertainment. Ratings are meaningless, and often become yet another marketing tool. Companies will use the LACK of a warning label to sell you something as “safe,” yet there is still no guarantee that there won’t be something “offensive” in the purchased content. Hell, it’s no guarantee that there IS any content.
Shield them if you can, but you’re making a mistake. It’s a cold, hard, fast and exciting new century, and when they are adults, and it’s time to leave home, they will be trying to evaluate and compete with others who haven’t been sealed off. Who will have the advantage?
Sysiphean children graphic via the Georgia Supreme Court Child Placement Project Newsletter.
Guardian Angel from Christian love dot com.
toxic baby form non-toxic dot com.
But I’m not really worried about them taking this too far. Too much censorship is going to get in the way of cable porn, and we just KNOW that isn’t going to happen.
I like the “boat” metaphor for parenting. The parents’ job is to provide a rudder and sail for your kids, and teach them how to navigate the waters, recognizing that we don’t control the winds. As they get older, stronger, and better skilled, they can take over the sailing.
But I would offer that parents who do not provide filters for their children are not doing their jobs. Kids have immature systems of right and wrong and limited abilities to grasp abstract from concrete or fantasy from reality.
Let’s take, for example, the movie ratings system. It does not censor what adults can watch; rather it provides information for parents wanting to make decisions about what’s appropriate for their own kid.
My 12 year old can handle the gore of Jurassic Park, in part because he’s mature enough to recognize the fantasy elements in the film. But can an eight year old–or 5 year old– separate the fiction from the film-maker’s world? Or will she have nightmares and interior scripts telling her she’s not safe from dinosaur attacks?
To me, this doesn’t mean limiting the kidlets to G-rated movies until their 18th birthdays, but I also wouldn’t let elementary age schoolkids watch the TV news without sitting next to them to help provide a frame work and scaffolding for them to understand the complexities.
Graduated exposure to more extreme images or concepts should come as the child proves maturity in other areas. This creates a kid who has confidence that he can handle life as it comes at him. To expose them to images/ideas/pain they’re not yet equipped to handle can have horrifying consequences, including but not limited to creating all kinds of insecurities and dependencies on damaging coping strategies.
I hear your point, but respectfully disagree with the premise.
Absolutely:
Absolutely. However, it’s not government’s job to do that. As for the various “rating” systems, they DO limit availability of creative works from adults. Artists don’t get contracts, or distribution deals, unless they “tame” what they do. The threat of government action is used to force business to practice de-facto censorship.
Wal-Mart won’t sell anything with certain ratings on it. Period. Some malls in some communities have “morals” clauses that limit what a store is allowed to sell and carry.
Bring the thing home, watch/play it yourself … I know from experience that stores will at least give store credit if you need to return something.
That some limitations on marketability occur when ratings systems are used, is your concern that government is being asked to do a parent’s job (which I think is too true sometimes) or are you arguing that parents should not be placing limitations on what children are exposed to?
You mention some regulation as being desirable (like no porn for toddlers), yet much of what I’m reading out of your comments seems to imply that we are “babying” kids too much.
I’m arguing back that limitations and guidance while growing up are necessary for being able to develop healthy, independent thought.
Another example: young girls are more and more sexualized– The “Britney-fication” syndrome. While I absolutely support sex education, at pre-puberty ages (about 5th/6th grade) exposing these kids to MTV-esque video messages gives them UN-Healthy ideas about sexuality , at a time when they are too immature to see the consequences of their actions, or make sexual decisions based on truly independant motives.
Mid-high girls may be pleasuring their 8th grade dates with oral sex, but probably not for the sexual pleasure it brings to the girls– more for the social peer pressure and feedback of the act. These girls are probably too young to even demand equal treatment from their male partners for their own physical pleasure– the sex act that we have NOT shielded them from now becomes another way for women to accept subordinate roles.
I’m arguing that the government shouldn’t get involved in it, at all, and certainly not be used to put pressure on businesses to censor.
I wasn’t arguing for any regulation, other than the regulating a parent does themselves. They need to do it, and determine the boundaries for themselves. I’m always amazed at how much stock people put in ratings, because they are utterly devoid of any real meaning. Believe me, there is plenty of stuff that a parent might not like in some “safe” stuff, and lots of valuable content in “bad” works. It’s silly to try to stick strict “codes” on things that are so subjective.
Your example of the “Britney-fication” is a good one. We push with consumer culture the POWER inherent in sexuality, without any of the context for how it can be good, or bad. And it’s not just in pop culture. Children can see their parents, neighbors and relatives play the mating game … yet we are terrified of honestly talking about it. Slap a label on it … problem solved.
The “Hot Coffee” debacle is an excellent example of just how meaningless ratings are. Grand Theft Auto is not a clean game – I seem to recall that some of the earlier ones in the series were partially responsible for video game ratings in the first place. But such a minor change, which has to be made by the user to boot (either with a mod or console ‘cheat’ tool), does not seem like it should be enough to bump the game’s rating level. That’s just silly – by that criteria, which many in our party (including BooTrib’s own self-styled “pragmatist”) support, every piece of software on the market should have that same rating, because the user can modify it to display the same behaviour!
The problem is that there does need to be some kind of concise summary of a game’s contents. Reviews don’t work. Review companies are so dependent on ad revenue and trial copies of the products they review that they’ll write absolutely anything about them that the publisher asks…
the parent has to find reviewers they trust, or become reviewers themselves. A parent will be able to return offending material, even if they have to fight for it a little. I always gave exchanges or refunds to angry parents (there were remarkably few over the years) and I was selling music right after the PMRC scam, and on well thru Ice-T’s “Cop Killer” release. It was company policy to accomidate parents.
Unfortunately, many stores nowadays are not so intelligent. Software shops, in particular, are loathe to accept returns under any circumstance, as there’s no way they’ll be able to reshelve the product or get a refund from their source. You might be able to wrangle store credit out of them… If you’re lucky.
hehehe I have a friend who did movie reviews… most he never watched. In fact he’d ask ME what I thought.
The best way is to rent the games and preview em with your kid.
We got an oopsy daisy game once. Forget the title.. and it wasn’t appropriate for my son. It was clearly too stressful for him. But.. my daughter saw this and it gave us an opportunity to “discuss” why the game was going back.
We ended up with all things, Resident Evil. Killing zombies isn’t as stressful for some reason… and their Dad loves playing the game with them.
Having worked in a rental store… the kids flip thru LOOKING for the labels/stickers. That’s all they look for in some cases.
Maybe the question is not that this out there for kids to get ahold of – but maybe why your kid wants to spend their money on it? What the attraction is? Maybe that way you can find another alternative. Or… play the game with them.
My moms family say I’m a horrid mother (among other things) because I HAVE A TV and MUSIC. They are talibaptists. I was taken off the “Christmas” card list because in Nov. I took my kids to San Francisco, again, to see Peter Himmelman. He’s not of their faith. …
James Bond they feel isn’t appropriate for my son…
What do they know?? π
Yes, and so do Dennis Kucinich, Bernie Sanders, Charlie Rangel, and about 190 other House Dems (okay, Sanders isn’t a Dem, but you hopefully get my point). If these are all “Vichy Dems” you’re going to have an awfully small party after the purges!
And you’re still pushing this idea that the “Hot Coffee” mod was not already present in the game. Rockstar Games has admitted otherwise–in fact, it only takes a change in one single bit to unlock the “Easter egg”. I’d agree, though, that if the mod were laboriously created by hackers instead of easily unlocked, that would be a different matter.
In any event, all those GTA games–mods or no–ought to be on the top shelf behind the counter, wrapped in opaque packaging like Penthouse or Hustler and requiring ID to buy. If you’re 18, what’s the problem? And if you’re going to come back with “but Wal-Mart and the mall won’t sell it”…well, what are you doing shopping there anyway? Go downtown and support independent retailers! Or if they’re all out of business by now, there’s always plenty of Web merchants who would be glad to ship it to you at a moment’s notice…
-Alan
man …
I live in a downtown area in a fairly progressive city. Many people don’t. In fact, once Wal-Mart moves in, many of those stores go under.
How blithe you are about other people’s freedoms, other people’s opportunities. Parent’s who aren’t so anxious to sanitize the world for their children.
This is about far more than “Hot Coffee.” Of course, you know that.
That would require thinking about the philosophy of a situation beyond its immediate political win/lose ramifications, something his beliefs decry as evil.
Of course, it is very definitely about far more than “Hot Coffee”. This can be used, for example, as an excuse to crack down on “unauthorized” modification of computer programs – to prevent them from being made to display content beyond that which they are rated for. Or, say, things like the Free Software movement, which distribute software with the express intent that it be modified and redistributed. “Industry” players in the technology world are already pushing in this direction, with things like the “Trusted Computing” initiative. (Which is, I should note, a marvellous piece of doublespeak) Microsoft would like nothing more than for the Free Software movement to be outlawed and wiped off the map; my old diary should explain why this is a bad thing for progressives, even though “pragmatists” may cheer it.
The implications of Senator Clinton’s stance and subsequent actions are both profound and disturbing, and raise serious questions as to where her political loyalties truly lie.
It also very nicely illustrates why rating systems are useless. GTA:SA + “Hot Coffee” is no more offensive or mature than GTA:SA is already, but it gets bumped up to a higher rating level because some opportunistic politician wants to score points with the family values crowd. Open to manipulation and inaccurate – what more is needed to deem them useless?
In the US, it’s practically guaranteed. Wal-Mart will cut their prices until they’re underselling everyone else in the region, then bump them back up once all competition’s eliminated. There’s also the matter of communities that pressure stores not to carry products that exceed a certain maximum maturity rating.
your point about the software initiatives seems to echo the gamesmenship played by RIAA during the PMRC hearings, where they “cooperated” on the new labels while trying to push through a “tax” on blank tapes:
I’d never advocate allowing a child to view pornography. However, I recall those blue drapes over statues (Ashcroft days) because the statues were nude. One man’s smut is another man’s art. However, sexual acts… and such- the porn.. is, I think non-debateable. Gawd, I hope so π The Art Museums… I can’t get her and my son to enough of them π
But back to music…
As to Spears… Madonna. My ten year old doesn’t like Spears and neither do most of her classmates now. They see her as a fake. They see the phoniness. They see her as just selling herself. Yet… My daughter likes Madonna. She is who she says she is. She doesn’t pretend.
The kids are starting to differentiate between pop (mass marketing crap) to actual artists.
Labels won’t matter when she’s on a field trip and someone breaks out an iPod. I didn’t have to tell her “Don’t listen to Eminem”. She knew I had read his lyrics and listened to some of his songs and knew I didn’t like how he sang about women, his mother. We talked about it and a few other things and it was gone. Later she came to me and told me she heard him and didn’t care for him.
For me it’s not the cussing or the language – it’s the message. And some mesages can be harmful without uttering a single cuss word.
I just want my kids to be able to learn how to think for themselves. I guide but.. if they only know how to listen to my orders, my beliefs, – then that just sets them up for listening to somebody’s else.
It doesn’t start when they are 16.. my kids have been listening and choosing music since.. well, my daughter at least, since she was able to point at the CDs on our shelf.
I don’t want Hillary telling me what my child can hear or not hear. I want to have conversations with my own chid about it.
You talked about it. More importantly, you took the time to learn who Eminem was and what he talked about (I happen to think he’s occasionally brilliant, and I think he shows signs of growing out of his earlier misogyny, rooted in a pretty shitty childhood).
You talked about it. That accomplishes so much more than any stupid label ever will.
You talked about it. That accomplishes so much more than any stupid label ever will.
Yup also.
I think I’m at a loss for words because I left them all at Liberal Street Fighter!
D.J. had to already know who Eminem was, what the lyrics were in his songs, etc– parents need information to be able to make informed decisions and to have the conversations.
I think of it as a consumer issue– just like I’m entitled to read the ingredients list on a package of Oreos, I should be able to glean something of the contents of things I buy in other packages– Or, as mentioned up thread, have a no-questions return policy.
That’s not practical though, with everything children are going to be exposed to, and no government labeling substitutes for parental vigilence.
I do go see any movie first, if I have questions about it– but I trust the G and PG guidelines to save me a lot of ticket money!
I knew there was controversy about him. So I used the internet. Also I talk to alot of different kids.
(part of ensuring my son is safe and such… I have to make myself available to his classmates. As his aide will tell ya – the best way to be 10 years younger is to ride the bus home with the kids for a year.)
I need to keep an ear and eye to whats going in the scene so as to help my son out a bit. But he, too, in his own way is very independant in his likes and dislikes and does what the hell he wants to instead of what the other kids are into. LOL
Rolling Stone magazine isn’t just about politics for me. It’s so I can keep track of what’s going on. And.. so I can learn about some newer music.
Mid-high girls may be pleasuring their 8th grade dates with oral sex, but probably not for the sexual pleasure it brings to the girls– more for the social peer pressure and feedback of the act. These girls are probably too young to even demand equal treatment from their male partners for their own physical pleasure– the sex act that we have NOT shielded them from now becomes another way for women to accept subordinate roles.
Yup.
I dunno… I don’t have all the answers and the few things that seem to work for us may not work for another living soul…
My mom was never told about sex or even her own body. She thought she was dying when she first had her period. However… the school’s sex ed class was a bit… of a waste. This is what my daughter got out of it – she said she learned that “One day you’ll wake up and you’ll have hair in other places”.
Which was totally pathetic considering what we’ve already discussed. She thought their teaching was “stupid”. LOL
Yes it’s confusing for young women with the SEX SEX SEX in their faces all the time. The mixed messages. The pressure. Which means I have to make damn sure she can come to me and I keep going to her.
in the 4th grade – a few of my daughter’s classmates started wearing the makeup (NOT just lip gloss or glitter – BUT mascara and crap) The belly showing t-s, the shirts with sayings. My daughter wanted to wear some of the same items that the PTO parented kids were wearing. There was a ton of pressure… there was a ton of bullying that year, too.
Nowadays it’s not cool to be smart. So music, clothes, attitudes -you can be pressured about ANYTHING. It’s all about thinking for yourself. It’ll stop alot of problems and situations.
Brittany Spears and Carls Jr. commercials are not going to be how my daughter dictates her self-esteem. That’s why I want her to learn how to think for herself.
I didn’t have to say “no” about the midriff clothing. She opted INSTEAD for glittery toenail polish and lip smackers. She’s died her hair ends teal, she wants a Ramones t-shirt for the new school year. (as the Ramones shirts show what SHE LIKES instead of what everyone else is wearing. Oh and skater shoes. Now she’s all stoked about school shopping because now it’s gonna be “fun” instead of trying to get an idea of what everyone is going to be wearing. The guessing game of “what wil be hot?”.
She’s been involved with martial arts. We get out on the mat with her. Jujitsu and Judo. She’s going for her purple belt. She’s with other girls who are strong, self-confident, and don’t allow themselves to be pressured.
great minds think alike… well.. superior minds think differently.
But.. I may be totally wrong. But I’m going to totally try.
You deserve an award. Really.
You should also teach parenting classes, too. (The husband would agree just b/c your daughter sports a Ramones T-shirt, but I digress).
There are so many of us that get trapped in the “protection paradigm” that MITM brilliantly described (hey, self included) that we just shut down, grasp for easy solutions. And it’s so easy for some to do just do as they’re told.
But being a sexual object; providing sexual pleasure only; and even “saving” yourself for that extra special man (Wait until you are ready with a person you can trust…you are not some packaged thing you give to a man…if you waited to “give” yourself to a man screwed everything that moved, what have you gained?) is a set up that to me says: you are put here for the sexual fulfillment of men only. I think that’s dangerous.
Totally AuntPeachy, that whole saving yourself for Mr. Right.. ACK. But we aren’t quite there yet. Everything leads up to other things π
No awards.. Only time will tell if I did an okay job. And she’s part of the job. My other child is disabled so I’ve really taken on the role of teacher AND student.
It truly in so many matters boils down, for me, do I want my kids to be able to think for themselves, make choices, OR do I want them to just follow orders? I can’t just expect them to one day be “mature”. Maturity is a constant. Learning and growing and such will always be a constant.
Pressures happen as adults, too.
Heh, her dad;s buddy is thrilled about the Ramones, too. π
But what a stress buster. We went from bullied to letting go of alot of the stress of “what the other kids are doing”. She’s not a “leader” but she is independant.
In the other thread I shared that she has “Avril AND Aretha” π Those were her choices not some other kids and not mine either. Aside from the pop stuff I heard of Avril’s… her other stuff isn’t too bad. I just hadn’t heard enough of it.
I was the teacher’s pet back in 5th Grade (1973 – 1974), the one who got to feed the films into the projector. I used to love to do this, for some reason.
I can remember when the sex ed films arrived.
For the first time, boys and girls had to watch the “health” film in different rooms (my teacher explained that girls matured faster, which this ten-year-old boy found to be a VERY offensive idea; “I’m as mature as any GIRL” I argued.)
Anyway, usually the films were in simple pressboard boxes with string or simple straps holding them shut. Not these. When I threaded the girls’ film (trying to pull out the leader first to try to glimpse a frame or two — it had the longest leader I’d ever seen on a film), I had to get my teacher TO UNLOCK THE SMALL PADLOCK that held the straps in place. The box was a hard plastic shell, with cloth straps fed through metal buckles to hold it shut. That box came inside another box with some kind of warning on it.
“This isn’t fair,” I thought. The boy’s film wasn’t so enticingly sealed. “What are they HIDING?” I thought. My teacher smiled at me, told me I’d understand in a few years (boy did I hate when adults said things like that).
I think we’ve become much less open in sex-ed since then, especially with the ridiculous demand that “abstainence” education be the only way it be taught. Back then, it was just cold and clinical and watered-down scientific. Now, it seems to just be religious dogma dressed up as teaching.
So much gnashing of teeth about the source of life, driven by folks who claim to be “pro-life” …
Jujistu and Judo! Damn girl, you even picked the good martial arts. None of that Take Your Dough crap for you, huh! We intend to do the same with our daughter. Fortunately, my husband does both, so he can teach her. And you’re teaching her the finer things like the Ramones. I want your daughter to hang out with my daughter!
Although we LOVE them. She found them on School of Rock soundtrack (LOVE THAT MOVIE) and “Freaky Friday” soundtrack. (she loves movie soundtracks). And that’s what got her interested in the Ramones. Then we got “Rock n Roll High School” to watch. Which she’s getting shhhhhhhhh for her bday.
School shopping found in Rolling Stone ads. Jiggy.com
Here’s Danni’s shirts. She might get two. (and Dad is now saying he wants one, too) LOL http://jiggy.com/search/index.html?artist=Ramones&Button.x=16&Button.y=8
Judo, The Gentle Way π We agreed that was the way to go. We did it for 2 nights a week – untill our dojo got knocked down to build low-income apts. Now it’s moved and it’s once a week.
I actually agree with much of what you say, except for this:
“However, it’s not government’s job to do that. As for the various “rating” systems, they DO limit availability of creative works from adults. Artists don’t get contracts, or distribution deals, unless they “tame” what they do. The threat of government action is used to force business to practice de-facto censorship.”
I think this goes too far the other way. This would mean that us parents can’t even get information, in case someone misuses it in a way that affects someone elses ability to get access. We need information to make decisions, and if Walmart or whoever uses ratings to decide what games to carry, I think you should take it up with Walmart.
But how much information do these ratings really give you? In practice, they’re stretched so far as to be useless. Content is censored in utterly ridiculous ways to qualify for lower ratings, or absolutely bizarre excuses are made to increase the rating of content. And misleading information is, in almost all circumstances, worse than no information.
at a local theater chain:
G = Take the kids
PG = Know your kids
PG-13 = See it with your kids
R = Think twice before taking the kids
NC-17 = Hire a sitter
That sums it up pretty well…
We had that in the rental store.
But what do I know.. I take my kids to NHL games π
(offtopic, may I email you later about meeting up in San Jose with a few friends? Are you attending ug 7th meet up in Berkeley? Or feel free to e-me)
about the 7th — life (or what passes for it) has been totally upside down the last couple of weeks while I cope with the crisis du jour. π
I’d drop that down even another notch– PG13 means, for us– see it first. There’s no way, for example, that I’d take my two kidlets to see War of the Worlds, and I wouldn’t want to have made that discovery while we already in the theater! π
“The hard facts of life are that parenting is hard, and it requires a level of involvement and attention that is truly awe-inspiring. Guidance and openness are the rules to follow, not repression and suppression.”
There are so few “rules” in parenting that work for all kids and all parents all the time. I would add to your list another rule – one about walking your talk. I get really tired of adults who always want to protect their children, but don’t look at what kind of example they are setting with their own actions.
Bravo Madman!
Guidelines. Not Hardlines.
As long as the creator, artists, songwriter is out of the loop for helping with the labels… it’s all a sham. Plus there are many writers who will insert a cuss word just to get the R rating or Advisory Label… Ka-Ching… more money because it’s a marketing tool. Sex sells.
Helping our children learn how to learn and think for themselves is hard work.
I’m appalled that Hillary thinks this is more disturbing than the Iraqi quagmire, than the Repubs in our crotches.
After all, thanks to the news and politics children learned of BLOW JOBS and ORAL SEX.
Maybe we should label politicians???
anyway, it’s sometimes a wonder kids ever make it to adulthood. In fact, when my daughter turned 18, we congratulated each other on surviving the experience of her teen years.
I don’t know that I favor government regulations, exactly… I suppose what I favor more is government (or some other) help for families so that they have more time to actually raise their children.
Single parents, lower income or middle income working families often have little time for imparting the lessons of childhood, so it’s all pretty much hit and miss. Some compensate for being overly strict (like your example of the cop’s or preacher’s kids who turn out wild), others by being a lot more lenient, trying to make up for lack of time spent by providing “things”, or allowing all sorts of stuff. And sometimes there is an opposite effect from the preacher’s kids… the ones raised in very lenient and open households grow up to be very prudish and strict.
When the “village”, for many, turns out to be sex and violence laden through television shows or movies and music and so on… and of course the video games, it’s not difficult to see how some parents would try and grab on to anything that would make things a little easier in their world. If that is a government regulation against what they feel is excess, then so be it. It’s a little life boat in a big sea, and it does little good, but I can understand the impulse, even if I don’t agree with it.
… that a lot of these arguments are missing the point. We’re arguing Parents vs. Artists and leaving out the real problem — marketing and advertising. A system that makes it’s money off of creating desire in vulnerable age groups.
Valid points are being made about the “protecting” paradigm, but the people who go to the lengths that are being argued here don’t need ratings — they’ve already largely taken their children out of the culture.
But blaming parents for bad parenting and not being involved enough is just as silly as blaming artists for sending bad messages — sure, both problems exist, but neither one is the cause of the dilemma we’re talking about here. Both arguments refuse to acknowledge the other’s reality and valid concerns.
And it is a valid concern if a parent buys a child a game that seems to be one thing but, with a little technical know-how, turns into something else. The example here is extreme and I don’t like politicians making hay out of it, but to blame and lecture parents who are concerned doesn’t help either.
There are a whole lot of things wrong with the culture, little of them having to do with bad words or nudity. But if both sides keep the argument there, we never get to the real problems. I have experience on both sides of this one, and I think both sides are missing the point.
What is wrong with the industry that artists cannot make a living if their product isn’t sold to the 8 to 12 crowd? Why are “grown up” video games promoted during cartoon shows aimed at very young children? Why promote a “dark” movie to the pre-school set by placing the figures in Happy Meals?
Sure, artists should have freedom and parents should pay attention, but the marketing of the culture is causing some real problems that are becoming increasingly difficult for both sides to navigate.
it’s more than just marketing.
There is a push for fewer and fewer “R” movies because G and PG have bigger potential box offices. Many landlords won’t let a theater show NC-17, let alone unrated, films. This drive to “shelter” sweeps all before it, the worthy and the crass.
Thanks Izzy. I’d love to hear more. Your ideas. I hope I didn’t come off as “lecturing”… I’ve liked this discussion alot because this is something we’ve been really focusing on with our daughter since the she started to be bullied a few years back.
Even my husband was reading it π Was great to learn that another kid was going to get into Judo/Jujitsu….
The Marketing “Gurus” as you mentioned is the major major problem. Carl’s Jr. showing a woman with a water hose… that was a shocker. What any of that had to do with selling burgers… but as we know sex sells. But the sex is being targeted at our kids. Sometimes it feels like you’re against a tidal wave that won’t stop. So really, have to make your kid a partner in learning how the media machine are trying to bullseye you with bullshit.
I’m with Mrs. Brown. My kids (ages 5 and 2) are what Madman would call “sheltered”. They are way behind on their quota of seeing 16,000 murders on television by age eighteen (I don’t think they’ve seen any). They’ve never seen a commercial for sugary cereal or violent toys (or any commercial aimed at kids, because they haven’t seen any commercial kids’ TV). And they’ve seen precious few commercials overall (unless you count the brief glimpse Tivo allows as they rush by while their parents are watching the likes of “King of Queens”, “The Office” or “Scrubs”–but they don’t pay much attention to those “grownup shows” anyway).
My kids do, on the other hand, get exposed to experiences most other kids don’t. They have both been to rock shows with me, they know by heart songs by such groups as Fatboy Slim, The Flaming Lips, and Ani DiFranco. They also have books that explain in detail “how babies are made”, and I don’t shy away from answering any questions they might have.
My son also knows more than a lot of adults about politics. He hasn’t just been taught “Republicans bad, Democrats good” (though he has been taught that <grin>) but could give you a basic, kid-level rundown on why this is so: “Democrats want everybody to pay for the library and for poor kids to be able to go to the doctor, Republicans just want to keep all their money for themselves and cancel those things.”
I just don’t accept whatsoever that I’m making a “mistake” by not letting them be programmed by the corporate media into being “normal” consumers. No, they won’t be “like everyone else” but that somehow does not strike terror into my heart! π
Madman is right, though, that authoritarian parenting is not good for kids. I took a very interesting course last semester on adolescent psychology. I learned that the research definitively shows that authoritarian parenting (favoured by Southern conservative families in particular, and the Christian Right more generally) is the worst in terms of positive psychological outcomes. But you know what? Permissive parenting isn’t far behind! Fortunately, the idea that those are the only two options is a misapprehension. It is a third type of parenting called “authoritative” that has overwhelmingly been proven to do right by kids.
I couldn’t afford to keep my excellent psych text, unfortunately, but I found a good basic rundown of the three styles:
I strive to be an authoritative parent, and I think so far I’m doing pretty well at striking that balance.
One final note. I find it absurd to suggest that I and other parents should have to take home album after album (or game after game) and try them out until I finally find one that’s not objectionable. I’m absolutely against banning or censoring, but labelling just strikes me as common sense. Hell, I don’t even need the labels to be negative: they could have a label that indicates “no objectionable content” or just “safe for kids” and that would be great. But one problem I have is that you can’t even trust the “G” rating in movies! I’ve been shocked by some of the violent or scary things I’ve seen in G rated movies. So I guess I’d like the ratings to be more strict than they are.
And to tie this back in to pragmatic electoral politics, one problem we as a party face is that urban “childfree” twentysomethings tend to be a core part of our base. Well, that’s not a problem in itself–they are of course more than welcome–but what can be problematic is when they exert enough influence that the party seems uninterested in, or even hostile toward, the concerns of swing voting parents. It’s hard to get a majority that way.
-Alan
when has that happened? Never, not in my lifetime, from the PMRC through Lieberman’s relentless crusading up and on to Hillary’s latest crusade?
As you said, you’ve been shocked by what you saw in G rated movies. Ratings don’t work. They appear to be offering information while doing nothing of the sort.
You act as though “Joe-mentum” is the primary face of the Democratic Party. He’s a convenient whipping boy (and I agree that he needs to be whipped, LOL) but he’s way on the conservative end. In fact, I get a vibe from him that he’s out for more than just labelling but for censorship–and I’m so not cool with that.
Still, you’re right that–at least in recent years–high ranking Democratic politicians have taken pains to try to address concerns of many parents about a “poisonous culture”. But if I understand you right, you’d like the party to go in a different direction, correct? Like that “Hot Coffee” vote: you’d have preferred Democrats unite in opposition to having the FTC investigate Rockstar Games, right? If they did that, it would really hurt our chances to make inroads with middle class parents.
And I think at the grassroots level, parents do get exposed to messages that suggest that Democrats aren’t on board with efforts to protect children from the media. I could cite this diary as an example, but that probably wouldn’t be fair since this is really supposed to be an “internal” discussion. But a memorable example to me was a car I saw in Seattle that had some window stickers of “death metal” bands, a bumper sticker with an anti-Bush message, and–here’s the kicker–one that said something like “Fuck the PMRC”. Ouch.
-Alan
The PMRC hearings were 20 years ago. Tell me when, exactly, did the Democratic Party fight for artists, or for consumers who AREN’T irrationally scared parents? They do plenty for the industry lobbying groups and corporations that fly them on junkets and cut them fat checks. The big entertainment companies and software companies can depend on the Democratic Party to do things to keep their profits fat.
It is. Isn’t it? π
We, too, take our kids out with us. We’ve take them to shows, and concerts. Blue Man Group was a blast. We watch mostly movies instead of television. I have a dish mostly just because of wanting to watch hockey. So the commercials aren’t so in their faces as some other kids, I’m assuming.
Yes it would be absurd to rent or buy it all to preview. But I feel it’s best that when in doubt – check it out… for yourself.
If I listened and counted on all the media and the other parents around me… It just sometimes takes more digging around.
sorry – getting dinner and stuff ready so we can “flop out” tonight and hang out together.
As to the styles… I think a parent/parents can be shades of those for various situations. Make sense? I fit parts of all of them but not just one of them.
Our children are 12 and 10. However my oldest is autistic, so we’ve truly have had to gear ourselves in – to the mode of what TOOLS do we want our children to have? Which has enabled us to be really attentive to my daughter’s needs as well.
There’s more but… telling the kids to get their showers and making dinner isn’t conduscive to “deep” chat π
And my kids, too, know more about politics than most adults I know. My son also. Hell, they teach me stuff all the time LOL
Hm. Mathematically, ratings are fundamentally unworkable. Ratings basically amount to statistical classification – attempting to group content into “appropriateness” classes based on information about the content itself. Completely leaving aside the subjective nature of the information – assuming that we have perfect category definitions and perfect information extraction techniques – this is a fundamentally hard problem. We do currently have algorithms that can solve it, but they tend to be very complex and produce less than perfect solutions.
Of course, those assumptions we made to get to this stage are bad. Leaving the information extraction techniques aside, what is “acceptable” viewing for children under 12? What information is useful in making this decision? Sit down 10 parents, and you’ll get 30 different answers. And providing all requested information would mean that the “rating” would take more time to interpret than the content’s run-length!
Then we add on information extraction techniques, and the problem becomes very difficult indeed. You have, in fact, stumbled upon the central objection without even realizing it. Namely, ratings are totally bloody useless and too easily manipulated.
I’ve enjoyed reading this diary and comments, here long after most people have commented. I teach human development, and being a child psychologist, I get asked a lot of questions along the lines of parenting, censorship, etc.
I very much admire the attitudes expressed here = Madman, DJanet (who must be a terrific parent!), and others. And I hate censorship in general.
But here’s what some of my students who are very busy, stressed out single parents say:
“I appreciate Walmart not selling more mature-rated stuff. I can send my kid over there to buy something with his birthday money and know that when we look at it together, it is highly unlikely that I’ll be embarrassed.
That’s just a representative sample. I wince, as I don’t like Walmart, or kids buying media unsupervised, but when I see the wrung out parent trying to go to school, live on low wages, keep her kids going, promote their education, I can see why she says “I appreciate Mrs. Clinton helping us with this problem.” Now I certainly know that this mom is not a Repub (far from it!). I do think that if her kid didn’t see toxic levels of sex-saturated ads and videos everytime he turned on the tube, life would be better for him, too. But that also would require more censorship and I woulnd’t be on many congressfolk voting for those sort of additional controls!
Parents are the best filters, and guides, and explainers, and accompaniers, in general. Especially folks like you guys.
But here’s the thing… Senator Clinton isn’t helping her with her problem. In fact, by supporting the Republican party every chance she gets, she’s making it worse. Helping her would mean making sure she didn’t have to live on low wages – something the Vichy Dems seem fundamentally opposed to.
It’s a balancing act, as parenting always is. I am far more concerned about levels of violence than sexual content but at the same time think that children need to be sheltered from the things they are not equipped to deal with. At some levels, showing pornographic pictures to a child can be abuse: anything that introduces a child to sex on an adults timetable can be abusive. The early sexualisation of children is a huge problem and a huge pressure on children who do not have the emotional capability to deal with it. I am horrified when I see bras and ‘sexy’ underwear with ‘age 6’ labels on them.
My daughter is now almost 20, and has not found it easy to find like minded peers as she is rather ‘different’; however, she is very socially aware (wrote a letter to the newspaper at 10yo about homelessness) and came to me (at 16)when she wanted to explore contraceptive options so that we could go to the doctor together to talk about it.
Its been said above – if we talk to our children and are available to help interpret a confusing and high pressure world, then we have a better chance of raising healthy, confident young adults. For me, everything is about respect – if we respect them as people, and not ‘own’ them, then we respect their individuality and listen to them to find out what they can deal with and where they need help.
And – just cos I can’t resist an opportunity to show how gorgeous she is, here is a pic of my daughter(taken at a club, by their photographer, which is why it’s up on the net): http://picture-desk.press-office.org.uk/photo.php?id=3812
She’s gorgeous all right–and very au courant (I can see why the club wants to highlight her on their site). Her eyes were reminding me of someone famous, and it was driving me nuts for a couple minutes trying to remember whom…but I think I’ve got it: Grace Slick. Can you see it? π
If anyone wants to see photos of my kids (about whom I’m also bursting with pride), email me as I don’t have any up online.
-Alan
This discussion is one of the reasons I love spending time in the frog pond. Its political and very personal on an every day level.
I don’t have children myself, but I have worked for 30 years with kids who are struggling with a variety of issues.
When I read all of these comments, my reaction is to wish that I could clone DJ as a mother to all of the kids I come in contact with. I think about these issues, not from the standpoint of what I want for MY kids, but what we need to do for other people’s kids. Some of the comments have mentioned busy working parents and what their needs are. I would add to that the multitude of kids who are growing up with parents who, while they love their kids, are incapable of providing “protection” for them. I see these parents all of the time and Scribe wrote a diary about it yesterday. They have grown up in families that have multi-generational histories of poverty, abuse and criminality. Their kids are the ones that are most at-risk to the violence and sexualization that permeates our culture.
So, when I think about how we are raising our kids – these are the ones I think about. The answer for them goes way beyond whether or not we censor media, but when we talk about it, I need to also think about them. I know that our typical response is to say that someone needs to step in and provide the protection for them that their parents cannot. But we’re not doing that in any meaningful way and believe me – they are responding to the marketing and eating this stuff up!! And the results can be devastating. Did anyone hear much about the young man that went on a shooting spree on the Red Lake Reservation here in MN? This young man’s life was a clear demonstration about what can happen when we don’t step into these kids lives in any meaningful way. The media he was exposed to (mostly hate groups on the internet) was probably just the last straw in a child’s life where we as a society had failed in every way.
I don’t have an answer to this particular question here. I just want to interject into the discussion that these kids needs to be in the mix when we talk about it. You have to assume that there are lots of kids out there who don’t have parents that, even given the tools, can protect them. And they are the ones that are probably the most susceptible to the negative effects of being over exposed to this stuff at a young age.
For reminding me of that, and I guess the undercurrent behind my disgust w/ Clinton and the others is rooted in this concern. They are making meaningless demands for changes in a system to treat the SYMPTOMS of the problems that families and children face: “These festering wounds are an OUTRAGE, we need better bandages!”
How about dealing with the cause of the wounds? The economic uncertainty, the lousy schools, our surrender to religious nuts on sex education. How about providing REAL help to abused women and children. Why do children only have access to overworked pro-bono attorneys to be their guardian ad litem? Why do case workers have such huge caseloads? Why don’t we put real money where our mouth is?
Because we don’t really care about, or value children. We only care about feeling good about children, and if there is some bullshit contentless band-aid like warning stickers, then we can blame the clerk at the store, or the mother, or the child being a “bad seed.” We can feel good, while doing effectively nothing. All we have to do is chip at some other group’s rights and concerns to feel better, and it’s not like the creators of “adult” games, music or film are people we hold in any esteem. That makes us feel good as a society too … showed them, didn’t we?
I didn’t know how to respond to your diary when I thought about these kids – but you have given me the answer. It is really all about bandaids for them. You make my heart break all over again for them because we don’t really care about their suffering or their lives. I try to work every day on their behalf and you have just given me another push to keep at it!
I don’t know how you and other folks like you do it. I have a hard time when I help a widow figure out how to untangle her deceased husband’s mutual fund accounts, or when sending a kid a ltd power of attorney form so his wife can take care of his accounts when he ships out to Iraq. To be confronted everyday w/ children who’ve been harmed or who are raising themselves must be heartbreaking. I know that I wouldn’t have the strength to do it every day.
We have to have IEPs for my son at school – Individual Education Programs. The contract with the school. I feel that EVERY kid should have one actually as all kids learn differently but I digress.
I think sometimes we forget that what works for one kid won’t for the other. INDIVIDUALIZED. This was needed in our lives as my oldest is autistic and has special needs (ahem, again, all children have special needs) and my daughter is fairly gifted.
Thy dynamics of my family demand I am attentive and individualize just about everything regarding my kids. So no accolades… I’m not doing anything special. I’m just trying to keep up with my kids needs, learning styles and dreams. π
What works for one family will not always work for another. How many families do you know HAVE to watch a 007 at least twice a week? π Or have to make two runs to the library a week and constantly updating their music library? Trust me.. it’s not “normal”.
I have received flack for allowing my children to make up their own minds about music, books – A teacher here who won’t allow his 16 and 14 to watch anything that isn’t G… so you can imagine how he feels about my son being the biggest James Bond fan on earth. “You let your kid watch that?” ACK. Which is just as insulting to me as some in my talibaptist family taking me off their Christmas card list because my favorite dude on the planet is… Jewish and we go to his shows as a family. Ironically the singer has seen my kids MORE than my family has and spells my daughters name correctly which is more than I can say for my family. And… he has brought them onstage and made songs for them. And even sang “Goldfinger” for my little guy. In the few times he has seen them, he was more attentive and treated them with more genuiness than them.
So what do I care about what they and the other “judges” think?? If I cared, I’d be bashing myself and be one confused mess.
I think the band aid discussion is right on. Many like to judge parents. Working parents, single parents, special needs families. The judgement enbables people to feel a phoney confidence about their own skills and choices as parents, people. As long as we can say “I told you so via a label or rating, parent’s class, whatever” then we don’t have to do the hard work of helping those out who are in need of help that would actually be benefitial.
I think with regard to labels. They don’t really provide a parent with INFORMATION that we need to make decisions. As stated, G movies have death in them sometimes or PG subject matter is a bit too intense. I think if they noted that there was language, violence, DEATH OF A FAMILY PET π and so forth that would be more helpful than an “R” and we find out it’s because of a few swear words but the subject matter was fine – rather than a PG13 where the subject matter is not fine for us.
Right now those labels, in my eyes, is all about marketing. It’s not about guidelines. I used to spend so much time helping others out about movies. “it says PG-13, but we don’t mind my 11 year old seeing (such and such) WHAT DO YOU THINK JANET since you’ve seen the movie? They would ask because the ratings didn’t mean squat to their childs individual level, their own individual tolerance.
So until they are actually providing useful information that one can make a solid, individual decision on… the labels are about as helpful as a “Support the Troops” bumpersticker.
Stop the sex marketing to our kids and make the labels useful for parents to make better, informed, individual decisions for their own children. I think the artists, writers, singers could really be helpful in that aspect. You might find that some of these artists don’t feel their music should be marketed to children – due to subject matter… etc etc.
most artists are only too happy to tell you what they’re about. Clerks in stores, if you approach them w/ respect, will be helpful too.
All I’ve tried to do w/ these two posts is to show that the labels are contentless and play on people’s fears, often to sell a politician, and often to sell product. Thanks for providing so much help fleshing these ideas out. That goes for everyone else who contributed.
Thanks for using my dialogue with you on the Nanny Party thread to create a caricature of a fearful, overprotective, repressive, crippling parent.
I’m sorry you took it that way.
I see nothing more remains to be said.
Except you know diddly-squat about me, as a parent or otherwise. Less arrogant people would have refrained from attributing a mindset to me on those grounds.
And less dishonest people would have pointed out my other posts in that thread in which I agreed that Hillary! was off-base about Grand Theft Auto because it was already rated ‘M’.
I merely pointed to the first comment on the thread from a liberal who’s writing I’ve come to admire who felt that labels were a good idea. It happened to be yours. Again, my point isn’t to demonize, but rather point out that policies like this take advantage of parents’ legitimate concern to protect their children to little effect. Instead of offering real leadership, band aides are offered.
It was our belief that the love of possessions is a weakness to be overcome. Its appeal is to the material part, and if allowed its way, it will in time disturb one’s spiritual balance. Therefore, children must early learn the beauty of generosity. They are taught to give what they prize most, that they may taste the happiness of giving.
Ohiyesa (Charles Alexander Eastman) – Wahpeton Santee Sioux