This uncensored anger is laser-directed at any and ALL men who continue to choose to use women’s lives as bargaining chips in their pursuit of “political victories.” If the shoe fits, wear it. (and I hope it gives you freakin’ blisters.)
I’ve just about had it self righteous, arrogant men (of BOTH parties) strutting around the blogosphere making proclamations about what is and is not “moral” behavior for women, or who otherwise gamble away women’s freedoms and womens lives for the sake of “political strategy.”
I’m sick to the teeth of smug, superior-sounding males telling me over and over again, to take my concerns about preserving womens rights to the back of the freakin’ bus, where it won’t sully up their grand plans for the party. (Oh hell yes, they have the right to do this if they wish, they own the busses, don’t they?)
I know many of you put much sincere effort into writing long explanations and arguments about how right you are about everything, to help educate us down here in the “underclass,” but did you also know how many of us see it for what it is? Intellectual masturbation, based on nothing else but your worship of your own intellect and your limited perspective as a male.
What it’s NOT based on, and can never be based on, is the life experience of being born into a female body in this white male run culture. If you are not a minority male, you have never experienced being seen as a second class citizen from the day you were born. Your biological gender and your color has insulated you from that very educational experience.
You have never had to wake up in the morning hoping against hope to see blood on your sheets, knowing that if none comes, your whole life will be altered, one way or another, from that time on. Your life, but not necessarily the fathers, who may or may not stick around to help. (“Papa,” you see, has, and has always had the choice, to stay or take a walk away from the consequences of HIS behaviors). Women do not, and never will, have that choice. WE must deal with this consequence, which is the formation of a baby made by TWO adults, not just one.
So, your “learned opinions” and “proclamations” about matters like abortion and pregnancy and sex, and womens rights, and what is, or is not “moral” behavior for women, come across to me like so much fucking hot air, being expelled by arrogant, ignorant, immature windbags.
But even worse than that, is the fact many you don’t even WANT to know, from women, how it really is. Oh no. That might interfere with the pending orgasms in your heads, as you dream of succeeding in trying to “fix” the world, as only you, of course, in your infinitely superior male wisdom, know how to.
So what do you do? You ignore our voices. If you can’t ignore them, you demean them, dismiss them, or otherwise try to piss us all so badly we leave just to get away from the arrogant likes of YOU, because beating ones head against the same damned brick walls for whole lifetimes gets old after a while.
In any case, you accomplish your goal of not being interfered with by messy women’s realities you’d rather ignore, in your continued pursuit of political power.
Well, who can stop you? Go right ahead and screw it all up for women, generations of which have left their blood, sweat and tears, and LIVES, on the front lines of the battle for equality and reproductive freedom. (The battle, by the way, that you have never had to fight, not for one damned day in your whole male privileged drenched lives.)
But I can and will promise you this: you will never have one tiny shred of my respect, and you sure as HELL will never have my vote for any of your chosen anti-woman candidates, even if it means I stop voting all together. Better that, than to vote against the very issues I’ve fought all my life for.
(PS: I also wonder, with all that supposed “brain power,” you revere so much, why can’t you SEE you’ve been very skillfully co-opted by the very right wing power structure you say you’re fighting against? You’re being played like a friggin harp, my bright young
buddies, into doing their work FOR them.)
As for us? As for women? Hell, we’ll survive. Survival is our specialty. Creating things, like homes and families and foundations, with whatever we have to work with is our specialty. We’re wonderful weavers of the intangibles than make life really worth living, that give you have a warm place to come home to after a day of competition and fighting each other for your beloved “King of the Hill” status.
Like I said: if the shoe fits, wear it.
the Annie Lennox song, “Sister Are Doing It For Themselves”. Great rant and I stand behind every word you wrote!
and on the shoulders of the many women who fought this battle before us.
way to go scribe!
I’ve only heard that song a few times, from watching the movie First Wives Club. I can hear it in my head, and it is so obviously Annie Lennox.
It’s a good tune, and at the time I thought it was just pure movie soundtrack. Thanks.
Oh it’s one of my all time favorites by Annie!
I’m glad you put this up.
scribe, thank you for so forcefully voicing the matter at hand.
I can only hope that the wanna be republican lite/Democrats wake up and smell the coffee before they are supplanted by real freepers.
Let us kick ass and take names and start the revolution to take back our party and our country from those who would take human rights back to the 19th century.
Bravo
Kickin ass and taking names right beside ya, Ghost.
i came home as soon as i could. pulled a 12 today. i did sign on from work to rate you folks up at kos but thats risky.
so lets kick ass and take names! heehee
you are singing. And what a beautiful voice you have.
As I said before, when a woman makes decisions about her body during pregnancy she is taking control. Men are control freaks and if all women and all good men don’t stand up then they are no more than American Taliban, no matter how many times they pull a D lever in the ballot box.
The idea of women having “control”, even over thier own bodies, is simply too threateneing to way too many men, especially with those invested in protecting their power positions. One is left to wonder why they are so afraid of women, huh?
check this:
Why Gay Marriage is Unconstitutional, February 24, 2004, by David R. Usher
http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/u-v/usher/2004/usher022404.htm
Something I found last year that made me gag. Feminists are pushing men out of society …
Talk about getting cause and effect backwards, eh?
Usher doesn’t want a womb. He’s paniccing because he’s losing control.
for expressing our true anger. Looks like we’ve got their “reality-based” world right here!
Somebody got it right with “Hell hath no fury” –
Storm’s a’coming – People get ready.
agrees with you there, I hope I never make this woman angry, a witch who did ballet for 28 years. lol
The FEAR of being pregnant when you don’t want to be, they have no idea of the fear. This society makes being pregnant such a scary thing for so many millions of women. Imagine being in a state–like unmarried, poor, pregnant–where no matter what you do you will be damned for being immoral. No matter what you do.
House Speaker Doug Mays wants to bring about for all of us, kansas.
He is seriously considering running against Kathleen.
A constant struggle.
I had it bad enough, and I was married! I couldn’t be pregnant, I had an IUD! Well, it failed. I’m culturally Catholic, what I remember of the topic from high school is, “yeah, abortion’s legal, but not for me” indoctrination. I didn’t want to have to make the choice. (Church: “you don’t get to vote”; I voted with my feet with the anti-gay stuff that made me see how anti-woman the organization was.)
We’d already decided “no kids yet”, got tubes tied after the abortion & never. We weren’t planning on kids. I didn’t want to have to have a kid, the same way you have to deal if your home gets burned (no choice, you’re life’s changing). Couldn’t let either set of parents know, they’d’ve liked more grandkids. Didn’t tell anyone but my supervisors at work, the office goes/went nuts over babies, and I had/still have a good civil service job I wasn’t going to quit to avoid people knowing. So putting up for adoption wasn’t an option. Besides (on later thought) if I’d let the late happy-pregnancy hormones happen, that could have influenced me to keep the child (If it were a human doing that and not DNA it would be coercion)– and my husband wouldn’t have been under any such chemical influence.
I don’t understand this push for more children. Isn’t overpopulation killing Earth already?
In industrialized western countries the birth rate is below 2.0–meaning that the population is shrinking. 2 parents must produce at least 2 kids or the population falls.
When this trend is wide and deep the consequences can be drastic indeed, just within two generations. If the rate is 1.5 then in fory years there will be 50% less people in that third generation than there is now. I’m sure you can see the massive problems ripplling out from this.
It’s gotten so bad that many western European countries offer serious subsidy to their citizens to produce children. If things don’t change soon their countries will fall apart.
We would fgace this issue here except for immigration; we get fresh inlfow, and the incoming citizens usually produce a lot more chidren than 2.0.
This is not the worst or scary population demographic I can think of–that would be China. That 1.0 per child is an utter disaster. The generations this dictum is under will have trememndously skewed poulations of males.
It gets very scary–there are very good hypotheses out there that clearly seem to show societies with a suprlus of males without mates are warlike–there’s nothing for them the men to do. There are no women and they get very angry and restless.
It’s the last thing any country needs–huge swathes of young men with no chance to find a mate. Very, very bad situation.
in Russia.
It’s 0429 in California now and in 60 minutes I have to shower up and put in a corporate day. If I had the day off and was serious about developing my skills as a writer I’d choose the utter disintegration of Russia as a story.
If trends continue in Russia the country as we know it will not exist in 40 years. It’s crashing before our very eyes.
It’s not only the birth rate, but also a truly frightening disease spread of HIV, tuberculosis, resistant bacteria, and tons of other health horrors that will creep out even the most heavily armored capitalist heart.
Then there’s the alcoholism and drug addiction part. Lord.
Russia has got to have at least 5 slots on the top 10 environmental global disasters–Chernoybl (sp?) being number 1. There are hundreds of tons of weapons-grade u-235 guarded by an army that doesn’t get paid.
It goes on and on. The story is worth the work, my life just worked out another way, is all.
That’s it, in a nice nutshell, Kansas
You, however, are fearless. I just saw that you’ve put this same diary up at that other blog. My, my, what different responses it is generating. (It makes me really appreciate the men who’ve posted here.)
I think I’ll drop over there to show my support for scribe….
I had that thought too kansas: brave, brave scribe. And, I’m not surprised by the reaction (i.e., it’s all the penis’ fault!).
..to those who managed to get over there before it scrolled off! The response what just about what I expected. But did you guys know I’m pissed because I probably had a fight with my husband and was taking it out on Kos??! (Fact is, the poor man’s been dead 35 years now, and I’m a lesbian grandmother! LOL!!)
I saw that 🙂
I’m still waiting for responses to some of my (what I think are) polite, well-argued comments that I’ve made.
Let’s see if I get troll-rated…
I wonder if they know I’m a guy?
I have to go offline for now but will try to find them later, and see what I can do regarding a response. It’s a bit hard (for me anyway) to respond thoughtfully to even polite comments in that kind of hostile atmosphere.
Oh, they weren’t questions to you.
Sorry for the confusion 🙂
. . . after reading that. Thank you, Scribe!
There’s nothing remotely moral about selling out half the human race in exchange for political power. If that’s how they go about getting the power, how the hell can they be trusted to use it?
Peace
Scribe, you totally rock. Heartily agreed with and recommended!
THIS is my new anthem. How beautiful and simple and angry and powerful your words are. I just emailed this to my daughter at college.
If I ever run for office, will you be my speechwriter?
scribe, I read this over at Our Word earlier. I’m so glad you’ve cross-posted. It’s a draining and (seemingly) endless debate, but you continue to show strength and steadfastness. You keep on keeping on, and I have a ton of respect for you.
RIGHT ON, SISTER. It’s a very complicated, highly emotional, and most personal inner journey that every woman experiences … and no study, statistics, or sophistry is going to make it one bit easier or, ahem, clean cut.
Separate Church and State
AND
Separate Bush, Inc et al from our Vaginas!!
Literally, LOL’ed
I support safe, legal and acessible abortion because of how I have responded to those whose views and values on abortion differ from my own.
I oppose any and all moves to limit access or to deny women safe and legal options to abortion.
Thank you scribe. I think it’s pretty clear that the operatives and strategists have decided it’s time to lay the smackdown on us. And as for the ‘moral’ lectures I’m as unmoved by their myopia and bias as I am by the supposed morality of the Catholic heirarchy.
I intend to work towards the defeat of Casey in PA, Roemer if he runs and the entire slate of Democrats for (some) Life before the primaries and, if necessary, before the general and I intend to do this because I believe that the New Democrat’s strategy needs to be throughly discredited and that a lot of folks need to find work in occupations where they can be more constructive. Like burger flipping.
BAN the DLC, eliminate republican lite from our midst and reclaim our party for what it has always stood for, Human rights for all. Damn sick of listening to these repub lite candidates that continue to mouth platitudes about how one issue groups are destroying the democratic party.
To hell with that, take your repub lite ass over to the republican party, but leave My party alone. Not one repub lite candidate will see a dime of my money this year. The DNC will not see any of my money, I will be donating directly to candidates that clearly share my values and committment to Human rights for all.
That means Reproductive choice for women, you republican lite asshats.
What about Dennis Moore, GW? He’s pro-choice, but repub-lite. What do you think?
repub lites, at least he has steadfastly held to the human rights issue of reproductive choice, even though he voted for cafta and the iraq war.
There are core issues that I will not allow to be ignored.
So far Dennis has supported all three, so unless a more progressive candidate runs against him, he will have my support until he crosses that line of core issues.
He continues to be rated 100% by Naral
He continues to be above 70% by ACLU
He continues to be above 80% by Seniors groups
I guess he is not as repub lite as many on the list of an earlier diary.
Reproductive choice, the end of the Patriot act and health and human services for all americans are my three core issues for this election cycle.
Thank you for joining me, my brother. This is what they most fear.
I like the threat to not vote. I am seriously considering sitting out of elections, unless progressive values are being fought for, and continue the fight outside of elections. Ultimately, as we educate each other, as we raise our own level of awareness, the tide changes.
Amen. Women’s issues together are a CORE plank of the Democratic platform. Anyone who doesn’t see that, or is willing to sacrifice that plank, needs to rethink his political affiliation. The irony to me is, they scoff at the “one issue” people, yet they seem laser-focused on one issue themselves: getting back into power. “Then we’ll take care of all your worries, we promise!” Not gonna happen.
For crying out loud, it’s not women’s rights. It’s human rights. The whole bullshit division between “civil liberties” and “single issue groups” is a propaganda construct foisted on us by the Republicans at the DLC. (We may as well call them what they are.) There is no division. We need to respond with one voice, loud and clear to these quislings:
You are either for human rights and civil liberties or you are not.
One cannot, as much as the DLC weasels would like us to believe, pick and choose which human rights you want to support and which ones just aren’t worth the effort. To do so is to cross the line between egalitarianism and simple, self-serving class privilege. You can’t be for human rights and civil liberties except for women’s rights and minority rights and gay rights — because if you are, you’re just for hetero white male rights, and they already have a party for that.
Perhaps more importantly, the non-hetero white male wing of the party desperately needs to realize that they are the majority. Straight white guys are a minority group. If everyone else decides they’re fed up and actually bothers to go vote in the fucking primaries, there’s not a damn thing the so-called pragmatists can do to stop you.
Think on that for awhile. Better yet, act on it when the next election rolls around. Just once, and you never have to worry about those people being condescending and patronizing to everyone else ever again.
You are either for human rights and civil liberties or you are not.
Yes, yes and yes. Lather, rinse, repeat.
I was involved with Loyola Chapel, Concordia University at the time when there were stirrings towards women in the priesthood and other sane proposals. There was also a conservative backlash against that kind of thinking.
But the real moment when I absolutely dropped my so-called faith was watching a video of the Vatican. There were groups of withered little men, wearing black dresses with purple sashes scurrying around – cardinals who guard the canon law of the Catholic Church and make sure that women are kept out of the hierarchy. They also make the rules against artificial birth control and a woman’s right to a safe medical abortion. I began to ask myself, what do these men know about women, they live in a world of men.
That was my exit from the Catholic Church but I still like the music, art, candles and incense. The Cardinals will not take that away from me. Of course I have the Catholic guilt for life but I keep it in check.
They know that in order to stay in power, they have to keep women down. That’s what they know, and that’s what they use “religiou” to accomplish.
This is one of the reasons I don’t go to church. Who wants to sit in the pew and not be able to at least raise you hand and say “You are full of crap on that statement, it’s not like that at all! I disagree.” Who wants to have a bunch of guys deciding how you are supposed to act, when they have no clue what your life is like?
I sorta like what I have read that the Quakers do. Everyone sits in silence until someone has something to say, then that person says it. It doesn’t matter who it is or what is said. Now, that’s a way to do spiritual meetings, IMHO.
Kinda like what happens here…
Hi splashy. I’ve attended similar services. It was the most spiritual experience. Those who chose to speak, prayed. Nothing memorized, it was heartfelt prayers. Then those who choose to speak did so on subjects that had touched them or worried them or made them happy that week. Everyone listened as each individual spoke. It was both isolating and strengthening at the same time if that makes any sense. Isolating in the sense that you were speaking about deeply personal issues on your own platform; strengthening in the response of those around you as they listened and then took their turns in the process. I’ve never had the same view of organized religion since. It just doesn’t seem as heartfelt; more staged.
I’ve been to Quaker meetings to accompany a friend. They are totally democratic. Behind the scenes there is a little petty tyranny (that exists everywhere that humans gather) but it is met with general disapproval.
Quaker meeting is indeed a pleasure, unlike some of the other religious gatherings I have attended.
Thanks, everone, for confirming what I had read about the Quakers. Makes me feel as though there is some hope in the world, and that there are some that actually get it.
a variety of Catholicism with all the liturgy, incense etc. but with liberal values. One denomination allows women to be ordained. I had never heard of this until I joined Co-Masonry and several of the members of my Lodge belonged to the Liberal Catholic Church:
http://www.liberalcatholic.org/
I have some women friends from the “good ol’ days” (early 70s) who are going to appreciate this one!!!!
Excellent post. I couldn’t agree more. Can we now count on a big swing of women voters towards parties like the Greens that have clear positions on these issues? Or will these political strategies win in the end yet again…
I just got home and checked in to see whats up. Late to the party – but I want to add my two cents. YOU ROCK SCRIBE!! Theres not much more to be said. I agree with those who have congratulated your courage. I am humbled by your wisdom and power and proud to call you my friend.
…and proud to call you my friend.
Goes both ways!
Yeah. It’s been a good day.
Hey Scribe,
Could you please get me a beer ??? Jokes, jokes, bad jokes. At times it is embarrassing to be a man.. Their swagger and attitude quite amusing to watch, especially when they are put in place by a WOMAN, that understand herself, and thinks outside of the box that is drawn by most countries and religions. Let the fire burn lady, women deserve better than what they often get.. Excellent thoughts, I would not only get the beer/wine/cocktail/refreshment, I would be willing to split the price, or buy it, as you saw fit. Women the superior(they certainly aren’t equal) gender, you have my vote.
You, I would bring a beer to. ( if I happened to be walking by the refirgerator, that is.) (grin)
Scribe,
You have a lovely smile… Heading out for a cold beer before heading home to enjoy my garden… I will raise my glass, and whisper a gentle cheers to you. Your passion something to behold. THANKS for the thread, EtJ
Tell it, tell it.
I’d only add this: Why is it that some men never get around to denouncing the moral failure of men?
Oh yeah–easier to blame a woman.
Some do! Like the the ones who posted here.
..many good men. They’re just a little harder to spot sometimes because they don’t crow as loud, strut as much as most roosters do. I love all these gentle brothers, because we can see and hear each other, and know we’re more alike than we are different.
…so I’ll do it here.
I should have been more precise: The moral scolds do not moralize about other men, by and large, unless they are gay. Tell me the last time you saw a campaign to stop supposedly “adult” men having sex with 13, 14, 15, yo?
(Other than in VA, who tried but of course, I never saw the so-called Christians in Va. Beach–Pat Robertson, et. al–pick up the torch. I don’t recall other ministers picking up the torch. But I do remember this quote from the Salon.com article “Isn’t She a Little Young?”:
. The minister is explicitly questioning male responsibility (can’t have that)and is encouraging denial. Again, it’s more of the “fast ass girls” thing that makes me crazy.)
When was the last time you saw social pressure on a boy to remain a virgin until he was married?
You DON’T.
That’s what I mean.
And BTW: When women are too uppity, express indpt thought, or (in the case of Willie Wilson) make too much money, they are either sluts or lesbians.
And when you scratch a man (and some wingnut women) who is against abortion, 9 times out of 10, he thinks the “slut deserved it” b/c nice girls wouldn’t get “in trouble.”
Tell me the last time you saw a campaign to stop supposedly “adult” men having sex with 13, 14, 15, yo?
Ouch. This particular AOC topic has been a particularly painful one for me Auntie because everytime the issue comes up on a certain nominally ‘leftist’ blog I find I’m arguing the AOC laws are a great idea and we need to enforce them and I am routinely savaged for this. Likewise rape (indeed I’ve seen guys argue on the same blog that women need to overcome their “victorian” hangups and then rape wouldn’t be such a problem.) Likewise there have been pro-groping threads, pro-force your wife to participate in exibitionistic sex clubs and pro polygamy even when it’s 40 year old guys marrying their 10th wife who happens to be 13 threads.
This self indulgence and lack of empathy is most distressing.
Have to disagree AP,
Most men believe their own shit, They do not need to blame a woman. That is how they are raised by their country and/or their religion. Sad, but true. Arrogance and lack of compassion of men, is why most of my good friends are women. Women think with their heart and soul, most men think with their brain, as well as their dick. I see it every day. Conquer, the way of most men. EtJ
Being a man is not all good, most men do not know the pampering of a long shower or bath, or the pleasure of growing your own flowers. Relaxation is bad in many men’s make-up, no wonder they die sooner than women.
I always find characterizations about men or women to be a foolish exercise. My friendships are divided pretty evenly between men and women and my oldest and closest friend is a guy who was my bf in HS. How’s that for a wierd karmic connection? We love each other with the depth that comes from 40 years of intimate knowledge.
My men friends have saved my butt more times than I can count. They taught me computers, they taught me how to fix my car, they taught me how to negotiate the world and they taught me about feminism. This last is wierd but true)
Sure there are some asshole men in the world and some asshole women too. Lots of them. But my life would have been not anywhere near as rich and full of laughter without my guy friends and I am grateful and aware of this bit of luck.
I could write a love essay about my gay men friends too… here I’m just talking about the straight ones.
is pretty dense when it comes to being able to see the male privilege he enjoys, pretty clueless when it comes to seeing things from a woman’s point of view (one reason he’s “ex”). But he says such wonderful things sometimes (one reason he’s one of my best friends). One of my recent favorites,
“Any time you open your mouth to start a sentence, ‘Men . . .’ or ‘Women . . .’ you’re automatically wrong, so just stop right there.”
“Any time you open your mouth to start a sentence, ‘Men . . .’ or ‘Women . . .’ you’re automatically wrong, so just stop right there.”
Ya, I think that’s fundamentally true. Too large a sample size unless you’re saying things like “Men can’t gestate children” and even that appears to be due to change.
What an incredibly sexist and offensive remark.
I almost can’t believe my eyes.
What an incredibly sexist and offensive remark.
I must have missed it. What did Scribe say that was sexist?
What are you talking about? I responded to the patently sexist comment by etJ.
What are you talking about?
It wasn’t obvious who you were talking to and I went by the subject line.
Since the misandrynic diatrabe above has now received no less than 5 ‘4’s and counting, consider what would happen if someone were to post the following:
Would such a comment not be harshly, and rightly, rebuked for its blatant misogyny? Indeed, would it not quite probably be mega-troll rated into oblivion?
Double standards, much?
Does anyone think such utterings serve the pro-choice stance, let alone feminism in general? If so, I would urge her or him to reconsider.
I don’t know about everyone else, but the response immediately below the offending comment sums it up for me:
I think the vast majority of men (especially here) are good guys; there are bad apples in any crowd, be they male, female, white, brown, etc…
Does anyone think such utterings serve the pro-choice stance, let alone feminism in general? If so, I would urge her or him to reconsider.
It’s unfortunate that you somehow manage to link that comment with feminism in general or ‘the pro choice stance’. I’m not sure how you make that leap in logic and classification.
The ‘link’ is obviously the subject matter of the diary entry on which the comment appears. I assume the people who applaud the comment favor feminism and specifically, a pro-choice position. Thus I question whether utterings playing into false sterotypes of ‘man-hating feminists’ are helpful to the causes this diary entry, and the people commenting on it, are promoting.
It’s as simple as that.
But I don’t want to be the thought police here. If naked misandry is A-OK while misogyny is not, fine by me. Just count me out, I guess.
Thus I question whether utterings playing into false sterotypes of ‘man-hating feminists’ are helpful to the causes this diary entry, and the people commenting on it, are promoting.
That’s what we call a broad brush and a selective reading because, well, the folks attempting to address that comment in a constructive manner were/are feminists and pro choice too. I think we live in a culture where a great many women are disappointed with the opposite sex because their life experiences have, quite understandably, led them to conclusions about men and a great deal of anger. Unlike you I wouldn’t wish to deny them their anger but I do wish to, for their own sakes, present the notion that some men are decent and trustworthy and honest. Indeed, in my own life I sometimes have to work at this, particularly when I spend a great deal of time trying to communicate with political types and operatives. Another reason why, in my personal life, I value my close men friends.
If naked misandry is A-OK while misogyny is not, fine by me. Just count me out, I guess.
It seems emotionally self indulgent to conclude that this is the case from one comment and 5 ratings, particularly considering that several of us attempted to address the comment constructively.
Either that or straight-up prejudicial…
I am prejudicial, for calling out the commenter and the 5 who rated the remark as ‘excellent’?
Oh, OK. Whatever. I am outta here.
No, you’re prejudicial because you drew this over the top conclusion:
If naked misandry is A-OK while misogyny is not, fine by me. Just count me out, I guess.
in response to polite attempts to reason with you.
“Polite attempts to reason with me”?
I really resent your tone.
We are clearly communicating across some gulf here. I’m not sure which; but then I’m not all that interested either. Have a nice life, other colleen.
but then I’m not all that interested either
Yes, that much at least hasb been obvious from the start.
Have a nice life, other colleen.
Thank you.
Consider the wish retracted.
Why?
I have read a bunch of comments from you in the past 3-4 days, saying that you were going to reduce your time here, that you were leaving, etc. What exactly is your difficulty here?
No one, least of colleen was being rude to you, at least not in this hotile-agressive way — I don’t know you so I just thought I’d ask:
What’s up?
Hi, Siroco,
I gave a 4 because, judging from his earlier comments, I thought the poster was trying to be supportive, albeit in an awkward way. He stuck his foot in his mouth trying to be nice. You’re right to call us on rewarding that particular post, however. I would have done better to refrain from rating and then to say why.
He stuck his foot in his mouth trying to be nice.
You know, it occured to me several times that that poster could have been male. I wish that in my replies to Sirocco had mentioned that possibility.
so I 4’d everybody to make up for it ….
…. but it wasn’t nearly enough.
Beautiful, my sister, just like you.
You never disappoint! Sister, you know I am shoulder to shoulder with you. . .and will fight as long as it takes.
Beautifully said, righteously angry, and powerfully honest!
Brava, Brava!!!
and you can hear me as I go along my road. . .”Don’t GET in my way NOW!”
I forgot to mention. . .I gave you all 12’s for such great comments and support of such a wonderfully stated diary.
Oh I hear you, Shirl, along with a whole groundswell of women’s voices rising all over this land, joined by a growing number of brothers voices, too. It may not be being heard definitively yet, by those who presume to lead, but oh yes, it is there, it is immensely powerful, and to ignore it will be a very big mistake with a very high cost at election time.
I just saw this diary well after its posting. All I can say is thank you for speaking out and doing it so powerfully. I felt just a sliver of hope and a feeling that I’m not alone while reading it.
It’s not often I feel the need to “let fly” this way. Usually I prefer more low key ways of making my points, because overall, it seems more effective in the long run.
But I also see the need at times, to just shout it out, to keep it from backing up inside like toxic waste, as women have done for way too long. I think it’s a bit more acceptable for men to do this, to spew it or act it out, (or otherwise get it outside themselves,) than it is for women, who have long been programmed to “speak softly”, and who then end up choking on their own anger.
Great rant.
I hadn’t read much of Booman Trib until I came over here from Kos to see how your diary was playing here. I’m getting heartily sick of the belligerent fratboy mentality I keep running into at dKos. I like it there but I was wondering, “Where did all the interesting women contributors go??” and now I find that they’ve come over here! So I think I’ll hang out here for a while 🙂
Speaking only for myself, I find the atomophere here quite constructive and welcoming of diverse views, which makes being heard a bit easier. 🙂 Isn’t that all everyone really wants, really, just a chance to be heard when you have something to say? I am finding a whole variety of places online now, where there is room for my voice, and and where I can learn from many other wise voices. As an older person who only discovered blogging a few years back, I continue to be astounded at the power of and and opportunities avaialble in this medium. So I am actually glad now, that I was I was shown the door at Kos. He’s right. It really IS a big blogasphere!
Tsk tsk. Silly woman. Your pretty little head just can’t understand the reality of things.
Women are the embodiment of all sin and temptation.
We men are weak and unable to resist you.
For the good of man and society as a whole it is incumbent upon women to wear the burka. It really is a good idea you know. The sight of women is too much for our frail abilities to control ourselves, our thoughts and our actions. You have no idea how distracting you sinful temptresses are to us. It is your fault.
We are powerful and we are smart but YOU are our Achilles Heel. We are Samson but the very sight of you evil wicked Delila’s strips us of our power and might.
How selfish of you to harm us and strip us of our abilities in this way. You ought to be ashamed of yourselves.
And your pretty little heads seem to be incapable of grasping your inherent wickedness and the responsibility you bear for protecting us from our weakness. The consequence of your irresponsibility is that we must do it for you… for all of our sakes. We must make rules and set guidelines and control you since you are so obviously unable to overcome you own sinful and wicked natures and do it for yourselves.
It is for your own good.
Wow, I just seem to keep forgetting all this stuff! (May shame be heaped upon my pretty little burka covered head!) (grin)
Now, do you need anything? Can I bring you a beer? What would you like for dinner?
(Oops. Strike that: just another 35 year old flashback.)
Steak and potatoohhs with green beans and a home baked apple pie with vanilla ice cream for dessert.
But I’ll skip the beer thanks… that is my sinful wickedness.
But when you’re done baking that pie you can darn my socks and starch my shirts. Don’t worry about confusing your socks with mine. I’ve thrown all of yours out since you won’t be needing them anymore.
Now get back in the kitchen… I want pie.
>>..and starch my shirts.
Oh, you brought back such a fun memory from my old life as a June Cleaver clone! The husband once complained his shirts weren’t starched right. So I double starched his boxers till they could stand up by themselves. Didn’t hear any more complaints after that.
thing is the truth. If men could get pregnant too, abortion wouldn’t even be an issue let alone be an argument among them (the wombless) having anything to do with morals. I won’t vote for any of their anti-choice candidates either, but they don’t seem to really care. They really think that what I need doesn’t really matter and there will be a price to pay for that, a very dear price! It is only an opinion for them but for me it is about survival and when they get totally knocked on their fucking asses over this maybe they will figure that out!
Is sooooo much tidier than the real deal. Oh, wait that was phallocentric. Apologies.
What’s with the big chill today on the ‘bune?
Phallocentric universe…think I’m gonna use that one…thanks!
Everyone should be outraged at all the talk of “morality” as a basis upon which to judge and then contravene women’s rights to control their own bodies.
Such authoritarian, arbitrary judgmentalism has no place in a democracy, let alone in a truly civilized society based on the idea of equality.
There’s a really vital point that markos and a bunch of folks over there who like his “big tent, end single issue activism” stuff always miss, and that point is that in any “big tent” situation, the people with the most social power can and will dominate the conversation and assume their issues to be the “important” ones. Women’s rights become a single unimportant side issue, along with many other vital issues that are, of course, trivial in comparison with, say, the bankruptcy bill or whatever (“but the bankruptcy bill even affects me!” you can almost hear some of them say).
As a woman and as a queer I am hugely aware of this phenomenon, and it is why the “big tent” only works so well… because it tends to turn all of the concerns of the socially “lesser” people into details or “single issues”.
Which means that so-called single-issue activism, or seperate groups of activists focusing on the needs of seperate (though by nature hard to clearly define) undervalued groups of people, are a necessary thing even while I think that they are less than ideal.
I know this is kind of peripheral to your post here, which is great, by the way. But it’s a really central problem for the “big tent” folks like kos, and one they don’t want to even consider the existence of. I hope that someday we can have a really unified and broad left in this country, but it’s not going to happen until we take a good look at the power structures that keep many, many people from feeling utterly unrepresented by that approach. Those who (like certain groups of bloggers who will remain nameless) don’t own up to that power structure and its problems are the people who do the best job of reinforcing it, even if it’s inadvertant.
Random thoughts on a semi-related topic. Happy friday, all.
that keep many, many people from feeling utterly unrepresented
sigh. It’s a friday. Damn you, double negatives, damn you.
You catch my drift.
Don’t make me break out my de Tocqueville!
I could so lick you like a triple-decker ice cream cone right now.
Did I just say that out loud? lol.
I was wondering where you’d gone off to; I’ve been pretty busy all summer, besides having frequent moments on kos of “jeebus, where did all these assholes come from?” and fleeing to my backyard with cold beer.
Thought of emailing a few times but, eh, I’m a pretty forgetful fuck.
And right now, I’m feeling anything but ice-cream-like… Sacramento… August… dear god…
Good to see you!
Dude, I totally emailed you when I bailed out of dKos but I never heard back from you so I figured maybe you were blowing me off. So good to see you here. But I suppose the licking offer probably adequately conveyed my feelings. ;p
it must’ve been caught up in my ridiculous amounts of spam and subjected to immediate deleting. Not the first time I’ve lost important stuff; I should never sort my email in the morning.
This is really interesting Spit.
I think it takes a person with maturity, wisdom, and a really big heart to turn around and encourage those on the periphery of power to come in under the sheltering tent. It takes a person who isn’t afraid to stop and listen even when the other person doing the talking is scared and furious.
In writing that, I realized I had just described the kind of Democratic leaders I wish we had–unafraid, confident, welcoming, as capable of being silent and listening as of speaking well, and fired up with the desire to share their own power. We do have a handful like that and we need to do everything we can to encourage them to keep growing in that direction. We even have a blog that makes a conscious effort to be like that, and even though the BooMan Tribune may do it imperfectly, still that’s the ideal to which it seems to aim.
Somebody on this site–I think maybe it’s CaliScribe?–has as her sig line, something like, “Be the way you want the world to become.” So maybe we need to give up trying to get blood out of turnips. Maybe a bigger part of our job is to work on keeping our own hearts big and open, so people are attracted to us and to how we see the world. Then we’ll have to keep making our own tent bigger and bigger to hold everybody who comes our way.
That’s my dream, anyway.
I hope I haven’t gone entirely off the rails of the topic here and my apologies if I have.
But here’s an interesting question: Given the fact that most of the Democratic Party is pro-choice, does that mean we should not worry too much about efforts to bring in more pro-life people, given the point you raise that we would still dominate the conversation?
The problem is that the effort is to bring in more pro-criminalization people in positions of power. There are very few pro-choice Democrats in positions of power. Most simply avoid crossing the pro-choice line because they know the base would turn on them. Increasing numbers of anti-woman types in positions of power would counteract this.
Well that and the established fact that the DFL folks will almost always vote with the republicans on legislation and confirmations which erode reproductive rights on a state and federal level.
I can partially understand electing a pro-life Democrat in, say, Oklahoma or South Carolina. But the problem is that the Democratic leadership has gone too far on this and is running pro-life people in places like Pennsylvania. We tried running a pro-life candidate in 2000 in Pennsylvania; it didn’t work. That’s how we got Rick Santorum.
But I can see a case to be made for running strong pro-choice candidates even in heavily-red areas. The problem is that we have not adequately made the case for choice in these areas.
The problem is that we have not adequately made the case for choice in these areas.
The Democrats haven’t made the case for reproductive choice for some time (with a few strong exceptions like Boxer, that is)
You know I think there are good and compelling arguments and strategies which would work quite well, the problem being blow hard moralists with limited and myopic viewpoints grabbing the microphone. It would seem to me that the abrogation of responsibility we have towards the poor expressed by the Heritage Foundation and by Bill Clinton when he spoke the words “Burger King” at the SOTU in ’96 would be a good place to start along with the notion of male responsibility, an idea which has barely been introduced in our political life since the sexual revolution and which, I am convinced, is quite alien to male boomers. What do you think?
We all have moral judgements, but it is a fact of life that each person’s moral judgement is going to be different than someone elses. There will always be some pro-life people who would never force their views on us and who would support us on other issues. I don’t have a problem with such people joining the party. It’s the people who would force their morality on us whom I have a problem with.
We have to adopt mutual responsibility as a value. Yes, there are people who are on welfare who could work, but who don’t. But to moralize about it and force your values on such people compromises the wall between church and state. And many such people stay on welfare because it is cheaper for them than it would be for them to work. We need to raise the minimum wage and have government-run daycare where needed so that it would be financially better for people to go to work than stay on welfare.
And furthermore, we should provide job training, networking, and marketing opportunities to such people. The reason many people can’t find work is because they don’t have the networking and marketing skills necessary to land good-paying jobs or they can’t prove that they have the relevant skills.
We need to teach our men in sex-ed that if a girl tells them not to, say, stare at them, then men should respect those boundaries. And furthermore, a man should always ask permission before, say, kissing a woman so that there will be no misunderstandings afterwards. Too many times after a sexual encounter, the woman will haul the man up for rape, and the man will say that it was consensual because the woman didn’t say no. But the problem is, many times the woman is too afraid to tell the man no, because if they did, the man would laugh them off and claim they were just holding out for more.
It is the woman’s body, and the woman has the final say over it. So, the man should always ask permission before doing a physical act that involves either her body or her personal space.
I don’t know what set the diarist off, but I wonder what triggered this diary; by her own admission, she doesn’t normally get this upset.
hell yeah!
great diary
and it is also so refreshing to read the comments on this thread. It really is time the Democrat party stopped slipping in back door morality and republican lite big tent crap, and decided to stand for something.
One question: What is anybody’s view of the “safe, legal, and rare” meme that Clinton and others are promoting as a way of building consensus in this country? In other words, what about a women’s health plan which would involve:
In other words, not only would this ensure your right to choose, it would paradoxically reduce the number of abortions. On the other hand, studies show that laws banning abortion do not reduce abortion.
There are many sincere people on both sides of the debate, but many pro-lifers do not understand many of the underpinnings of the anti-abortion position. Much of it is about control of the woman and not about concern for the fetus. Dennis Kucinich changed from anti-abortion to pro-choice after recognizing that to be the case.
All the rants against moralizing men, as good as this one is, will not change the way men think about abortion. Only they can change themselves. And some will, if they can be shown that anti-abortion is about controlling women rather than a regard for the fetus.
I went back over to the cross post of this…the usual comments made there I see.
I love the bit about “single-issue” voters, suggesting that people who consider the choice issue before voting are “purists” who aren’t good for the party. Interesting that they don’t stop for a minute to think that they are “single-issue purists” who base their vote on a candidate who proclaims themselves a Democrat, despite their positions on the issues, isn’t it?
And why are the people who would vote for someone like Casey in PA because of his pro-union stance not derisively called “single-issue voters”? I’m a woman in a white-collar career…which do you think I’m going to vote for, pro-choice or pro-union?
And of course, it’s sad how many are willing to follow the leader over there like a bunch of sheeple.
</rant>
You go, Scribe. This diary just goes to show that, we as women, have got it on the ball, when it comes to us. Now we have to let the world and primarily America see it from us. I think we are the leaders of the world, in women’s issues. It is up to us to get it thru the men’s head that we are woman and they need us to get the job done at the end of the day. We do have rights…right along the men, we do have rights…it is our rights, woman’s rights. I am seriously waiting for the day that when men’s rights are threatened and then see the mice run.
I am not against men…I am just saying once the tables are turned against them, is when they start to think in their hearts that they are threatened.
You know, I have thought, that once they take away our rights for the way we want to deal with our bodies, then will come the vote. I have sat back and thought as to this and how they will give so many issues as to why we do not need that vote.
I am for when it takes two to get pregnant, then the male should have to be involved as to the bringing up of that child. So often the male part of this equation falls down. They simply disappear and not to be heard of again. In many cases, it is like “hit and run” for many males.
I am woman, hear me roar. I do have a voice and it is and will not be taken away from me. Women have fought toooooo hard and tooooo long for this voice and we want everyone to know it is not for sale…..never…..
There is lots to be said here on your diary. I could go on all day and still not be done. Thank you for your thoughts, Ya All, and especially you, Scribe.
scribe, I am/was reluctant to post a comment to this blistering and needed diary. I think sometimes it’s best not to say anything at all if it’s not clear what you (meaning me) want to say.
I am conflicted. Not about your right to protect your body, but about my place in this world, this country, this environment as a man, and how to relate to my sisters without revealing the parts of me that have been damaged, I think, by the society that teaches boys and men that women are less than their equals. I surely don’t mean to use those pressures as a cop out, but they do exist.
The best way for me to let you know that I stand with you is to say first, that I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments, all of them, that you have expressed in this diary. Second, it will never be a good enough excuse for a man to say that societal pressures explain ignorance when we all have been given the ability to think, feel, and empathize. Lastly, when each of my children were born, I felt so much removed from their birth in a physical way because my wife as a female was the one who I thought had been blessed with the ability to carry a living being inside her body and no matter how emotionally connected I felt and no matter how hard I tried to be of SOME use to her lol, still I felt like an outsider, a very jealous outsider. I so wish that I could experience that. Maybe humans will have evolved enough millions of years from now to share the carrying and bearing of children. In the mean time I will try the best that I can to be a good brother to all my sisters and I will hope that someone figures out how to build a time machine :o)
Thanks for your comment here SS, which so captures your ability to meld thought and feeling on this issue.
I think you have captured the very root of the development of misogyny. For years I wondered why most all cultures developed this fear of women that drove them to want to control them (primarily their sexuality). I think its the fear of the very feelings you expressed here. Along with the need to be able to identify who their offspring are. I was stunned one day years ago to hear that a survey of men who’s partners were pregnant showed that after the concern about their ability to provide financially, the second most common fear was that the baby was not theirs. This exclusion of men from the process of birth (but of course not conception) is what I think is at the bottom of it all. This is also exactly why women must fight so hard to have control over their own bodies in these circumstances!
Your recognition of these feelings, means that we can talk about it and share it as much as is possible. Without the kind of recognition that you have shown – it all goes underground and becomes a battle. Thank you!!
Supersoling, I believe we’ve all been highly unfluenced, affected, and yes, limited and damaged, by the gender techings of tnis culture. As a woman, it has taken me 65 years to extricate myself from that programming to the degree I have thus far.
It’s usually the faction that is placed in the “lesser role”,that revolts against it. The faction that has always enjoyed the “superior position,” while just as affected, has a whole lot of trouble seeing any need for it to change, as they only know that position, and take it all for granted.
The hope for all of us, men and women, to ever come togeher as true equals, lies in women reclaiming their own authentic selves, and in men like you, who have the courage to go inward and honestly examine your own unconscious culteral programming, than led you to your own set of false assumptions about true equality of gender.
I don’t see you using this as a cop out. I see you taking on adult responsibility for knowing where your beliefs come from, for making new choices of whether they are valid or not for you now, and for changing them to match your own core self and values. You are right on: this is the only way any of us can ever change, from the inside out. Men’s imbedded sexism cannot be changed by women, only by themselves, and the same goes for women’s imbedded sexism about men.
I am glad you posted, even if you didn’t feel “clear” on what you were going to say. You said it beautifully, brother. Thank you.