This evening David Brooks of the New York Times offered the opinion that in Vietnam our Army “At last” got it right at the end of the war and began to concentrate on what the French used to call the “oil spot” technique (tache de huile) in which one secures inhabited villages, towns, etc. and gradually expands the area of control into the spaces between until the oil spots meet and, voila! No more guerrilas. The French fastened on this method through the efforts of some very bright and creative French officers, most notably, Colonel Roger Trinquier as expressed in his masterpiece, “Modern War” (La Guerre Moderne) which was required reading in 1964 at the “US Army Special Warfare School’s” “Counterinsurgency Staff Officer” course.
This theory worked quite well for the French in Indochina and Algeria. They essentially defeated the guerrillas in both countries, but lost the wars anyway. In Vietnam they lost to the main field forces of the Viet Minh who were a real army with regiments, divisions, uniforms, artillery, tanks ,etc. The French chose to fight their war on Indochina “on a shoestring” and in the big battles, like Dien Bien Phu, they were often badly outnumbered and outgunned. In Algeria, the French Army eventually pacified most of the country, but after a quiet couple of years, DeGaulle was elected and simply made the wise political decision to leave Algeria. He felt that the time had passed for such things as “Algerie Francaise.” He was right.
:::flip:::
Why do I know so much about the “oil spot” method? I know it because it worked for us also in Vietnam. I worked in the application of this method. I am not sure what year Brooks thinks was “at the end of the war,” but from 1967 on the US was busily trying to apply this method under the major part of the US Mission called “Civil Operations and Revolutionary Development Support” (CORDS). This effort united USAID, military training groups at all levels, Agricultural, Educational, Civil Police, Medical, etc. all into one effort with a national, regional and provincial, and district planning and operations policy. I worked at the District and Provincial levels. This went on until US forces completed their withdrawal process under Nixon’s Vietnamization Policy” in early 1973. I was on one of the last planes to leave. By that time most of the heavily inhabited areas of the country were pretty much under government control. How it is that Brooks thinks that we adopted this kind of strategy late in the war is a mystery to me.
Like the French the US faced the main battle forces of the Viet Minh as well as the local force guerrillas, and shadow government that CORDS was occupied with. After gaining control of Tonkin in 1954-55 the Vietnamese communists had renamed themselves as a national army and so we knew them as the North Vietnamese Army (NVA). It was the same army. The divisions and regiments which had fought the French at Na San in 1953 and Dien Bien Phu in 1954 fought us in our war. I remember talking to PWs captured by us who had actually been in the same units at DBP.
We brought our main forces into the country in the mid 60s to meet the very real threat to our early pacification programs posed by the introduction of the NVA regular army into South Vietnam. As a result our regular forces fought the NVA’s regular forces all over the country and almost all the time out in the woods where the civilian population was pretty thinly scattered. In 1965-1967 it was “force on force” in the “Iron Triangle,” “The Ashau Valley, “The Michelin Rubber Plantation” and similar places. The infamous My Lai case occurred in the course of an American unit’s attempt to search a complex of villages which were thought to house the 48th VC Local Force Battalion. No one can deny that what resulted there was a grotesque crime perpetrated by a very poorly led unit.
From 1967 on the job of “heavy” US forces was to fight the NVA in SUPPORT OF the strategy that Brooks thinks was adopted “at the end of the war.” People like me who were located in Vietnamese towns and villages out in the country depended for our lives on the shield provided by US Regular units who would come to our rescue if the NVA attacked in strength. That happened a lot since they were not happy with what we were doing.
Unfortunately for the NVA we (and the South Vietnamese) were neither outnumbered or outgunned. Throughout the period under discussion we had something over half a million men in country As a result, they found themselves in a losing situation in which they could rarely win engagements against our side if our main forces were engaged. The only situations in whch they could prevail were fights against isolated units and in particular against small groups of CORDS advisers and their Vietnamese allies in the border regions. How did we losein the end? Just like the French in Algeria. People at home just got tired of the whole thing and pulled the plug. After a couple of years of “peace” under the armistice of 1972, the North Vietnamese government decided to test the system and attacked and captured a provincial capital on the Cambodian border. It fell and the reaction of the US media and Congress was to immediately declare that under no circumstances would ANY assistance be given to the South Vietnamese. Collapse then followed. There were NO American forces or advisers in the country then. There had not been for a long time.
Is this Vietnam example applicable in some way to Iraq? Not really, not at present strengths in Iraq. In Iraq we do not have the forces to go out and provide the protection for isolated coalition “development” teams all over the country. Neither do we have the policy generated structure to provide integrated teams of experts to occupy a large number of towns on a permanent basis. If we want to do that we will have to organize such an effort and put it in in place. It will be a major additional commitment. At the same time we will have to remember that these scattered groups will be very vulnerable and will need the the prospect of reinforcement by US Army or Marine units within a couple of hours. All this implies a very different deployment, a different commitment, and a lot more troops.
Can we pacify the country that way? Yes, we can if we are willing to pay the price in assets and invlovement over four or five years. The answer is also dependent on whether the various Iraqi groups do not start “competing” to see who can ask us to leave first.
In the meantime, David Brooks needs do some more reading
UNSCR 1546:
“12. Decides further that the mandate for the multinational force shall be reviewed at the request of the Government of Iraq or twelve months from the date of this resolution, and that this mandate shall expire upon the completion of the political process set out in paragraph four above, and declares that it will terminate this mandate earlier if requested by the Government of Iraq;“
Pull the fork out. We’re done.
With all due respect, Sir, is this why you were on the last plane out? Is this why we left the way we left? Is this why we scraped the land to find the hidden holes they lurched in? Is this why we used such horrid defoliants to rid the areas of places to hid? Is this why we burned complete villages to keep them from hiding? Is this why we raped their lovely land of all the innocence for what we believed in? Is this why we refused to help the Vietnamese instead of doing what what thought was right towards the French?
Now mind you, I am not a communist, but I do believe the powers that were, were wrong from day one then, too.
I did not like the Old Man either, he was a farce of all times. He tried to put a face on something that was not there….and we knew it all the time.
Is this why we stayed 10 f***ing + years to do nothing? Is this why Ike brought us there in the first damn place? Is this why many of us still wonder WHY, AND WHAT IS IT ALL FOR..war that is. When many of us linger on a daily basis to remember in such pain as to even dare to think of those days again, we just wonder WHY!!??
Now, Sir, I do respect you very much, simply for your stance here. I do however, take some of what you want to get across to us with a grain of salt. No hard feelings, Sir, please. I just have a different thought on this topic.
Thank you for your time on this effort. Brooks is definitely being WRONG this time! I do know those of the Phoenix program. I do know what they did. I do know what they do now in their drunken stupors of misery for the things they did.
Or better, we should stop reading David Brooks.
‘Securing’ here is a euphemism for depopulating. Villages were razed and then rebuilt as ‘strategic hamlets,’ a strategy copied by the Guatemalan army in the early 1980s. The US appears to have used this strategy in its assault on Fallujah last year. Is Brooks suggesting that the US ‘get it right’ with a scorched earth policy in Baghdad?
This theory worked quite well for the French in Indochina and Algeria. They essentially defeated the guerrillas in both countries, but lost the wars anyway.
But lost the wars anyways? What nonsense.
Pat means that we lost the Vietnam war to the NVA, not the Viet Cong, and that we could have held off the NVA for as long as we had domestic support to do so. I think that is accurate.
As for Algeria, I’m no expert but Melancthon, one of our French members, seems to agree.
Yes, at the end of the war the Algerian FLN was militarily defeated. But they had won a wide political support among the Algerian-born population in Algeria and in France, and the French population in France was strongly opposing the war.
To understand why it could be at the same time a military defeat and a political victory, you must take into account a few things:
had not infiltrated all levels of the South Vietnamese government that W Patrick seems to believe or wants us to believe somehow controlled the country. The Viet Cong and its supporters were all in place in the government and even large segments of the military long before the last plane left.
The Viet Cong defeated W Patrick Long. The scorched earth policy, now called “Shock and Awe” defeated W Patrick Long. If he was part of that “Shock and Awe” then he was part of the problem.
No wonder he hates Kerry. No wonder he wants to rewrite history.
<<hear hear hear>>> you just said it, Man…you just said it all…..thank you very much for watching my back…
http://www.afsa.org/fsj/apr00/leepson.cfm
to paraphrase: “USAID was at the table along with the CIA…”
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/section?Category=SRTIGERFORCE
Booman, with all due respect, Sir, I beg to differ with you on this. We were fighting both the NVA and the Cong. The Nva of course was a different horse but they had help and together they did a very fine job of doing their gastly deed to us. Just ask all those ppl on the WALL. Just ask the nurses how they felt when someone came in with wounds that were not necessary with so many things that was not necessary. Until you have been there and done that, one needs to step back and consider the words stated. I can tell you that the spooks, that I am very sure Mr. Lang is familar with, are not the kind of ppl I would personally want to be around. Their ethics are not worth the power to blow them to hell. I can tell you some of the SF’s that I personally know are still effected to this very day over that shit. The human mind can never comprehend the shit that went down over there. Besides, I think Mr. Lang knows damn well what he is meaning. I applaud him for seeing the hypocricy in this administration. They are ignorant! [the bushites] They haven’t a clue as to what they are doing. The military brass, that are political, are giving away the farm for this administraion. They will take us down a dark and ugly road that will tar our military forever! This administration is going to break everything, getting in their way, doing it too.
I really would like the Vietnam Veterans here to really get down and dirty and tell you younger folks the truth as to what really went on there. I do know that the White Horse Brigade from South Korea was very bad…we would let them do our dirty work…there were others too. If you folks only knew the shit that went down…Oh well, I have already said way tooooooo much. I promise to keep my mouth shut from hense forth on. I do not think some ppl here want nor are willing to hear what I have to say. Taint good either. I am a very critical person when it comes to the war of my age!
what you are disagreeing with. I think Lang’s point is that the CORDS and USAID programs were effective in terms of pacifying South Vietnam, but that large scale offensives like Tet, the 1972 offensive, and the final offensive were carried out not by guerillas but by main line forces.
The Phoenix program was part of CORDS, so I’m not about to defend the overall pacification program’s morality, and it didn’t prevent the fall of Saigon, so it can’t be called a success. Pat worked hard on making USAID work and I assume he has some attachment to the program.
In any case, I’m only making a minor point, which is that the North Vietnamese army won the war and not the South Vietnamese guerillas.
the tactic!!!!!!!!! way it went down. I am not going to involve myself in any more rheteric here for fear I will piss someone off. I am already pissed at why we went down in VN..I have my ideals on this and after all this time, I don’t to think anyone will change my mind on it. I really do not thin it is something that anyone could begin to understand if they tried. Like hell the Phoenix program was part of cords!!!!!!! like cover you ass maybe…
I thought the Phoenix Program was a part of the CORDS program. If I’m wrong I’ll be the first to admit it.
About the French war in Algeria, you mention the fact that, at the end of the war, the Algerian resistance was all but militarily defeated, which is true (their victory was a political one). What you should also mention is that this victory, along with the “tache d’huile” strategy, was made possible by a massive use of human intelligence and deception.
I’m referring to the operation called “la bleuite”. It was named after the “bleus de chauffe” (boiler suits), which was the nickname of the french secret services Algerian agents, (often former resistance fighters who had been “turned over”). The French services managed to infiltrate the Front de Libération Nationale (FLN) to a very high level and to manipulate it. The French eventually intoxicated the FLN commanding officers, making theme believe the infiltration was much larger. It started an internal witch hunt, resulting in the killing of more than 2000 resistance fighters, mainly officers and intellectuals, by their own brethren. It also sparked a high level of paranoia and suspicion within the FLN and badly damaged the cooperation between the different groups of resistance fighters.
It had long lasting effects: years after the independence of Algeria, some Algerian leaders were suspected of being former “bleus de chauffe”…
I saw Brooks say something similar on Friday’s NewsHour. Basically, he’s trying to rewrite history. When he says that by the end of Vietnam we knew how to fight it, what is he basing this on? He also off-handedly commented that we learned that to win we have to make a full commitment of force.
Maybe he doesn’t know that “carpet bombing” was coined during Vietnam.
Imagine a well-armed force attempting to occupy America. Imagine that our own army has been routed in a blitz and we’re all on our own. Would we just knuckle under? Would we just say, “Sure, go head, take our natural resources, we’re just so happy that you’re here to protect us from ourselves!”
Vietnam revisionism is so distasteful, but this again is the right-wing’s approach to everything. First, deny that it’s at all relevant. Then make up a fantasy that endorses their own position.
Ugh…..
He came to power in a coup d’etat orchestrated by diehard Algerie Francaise elements in the French army who were worried by signals from Paris for a negotiated settlement. He then was elected and wrote a new constitution tailor made for himself which was confirmed by referendum. On Algeria he initially gave the impression that he was a partisan of Algerie Francaise, famously going to Algeria and telling a huge crowd of pieds noirs ‘Je vous ai compris.’ after about two years he reversed course and started negotiations, seeing no way of any long term normalization of the situation. At that point the diehards tried another coup and failed. Various military people and pieds noir then turned to terrorism in the OAS.
One major difference between the US experience and the French one was that the French were intimately familiar with the countries they were fighting in. That is especially true of Algeria where they had been for over a century and where about ten percent of the population of ten million was made up of French citizens and which was treated sort of like a part of metropolitan France. For the most part these were not rich people but petit bourgeois – clerks, shopkeepers and so on. I say sort of because it was an apartheid system where the French citizens lived a normal life, mostly concentrated in urban areas, while the native Arab and Berber population, mostly rural, was subject to brutal rule and a completely different set of laws. In a sense it is similar to the situation in the West Bank where you also have a democracy with a large colony with an apartheid system. On the other hand we had little understanding of Vietnam when we went in and virtually none of Iraq. No large contingent of army, police, and administrative personnel familiar with the local population.
Melancthon mentions the infiltration of the FLN. Another highly effective tactic was to turn the relatives of the victims of the extremely brutal and indiscriminate FLN against it. These formed an effective and vicious arm of the loyalist native forces (the ‘harkis’). From what I’ve read the FLN Algerian government did exactly the same thing during the war against the Islamists in the nineties. The French also used a strategic village like program, deporting entire regions into closely guarded areas. Both those tactics could in theory be used in Iraq but they’re not exactly pretty.
All of this allowed the French to reduce the insurgency to a slow simmer, but not to end it.
I would add a few facts:
From the administrative/political point of view, Algeria was not a colony, but a French “département”, with the same status as the départements of France. However it was a two-tier society: although the Algerians from Arab and Berber descent (around 9 millions) had the French citizenship, it was not at all a full citizenship. The French “pieds-noirs” (around 1 million), who had the full citizenship, were descendants of French settlers, of immigrants from Spain, Italy and Malta and also Algerian Jews, who had been granted the French citizenship. Most of them were Algerian-born.
The number of French troops sent to Algeria was 400,000 as soon as 1955 (the war started in November 1954), and went up to more than 500,000. Most of them were from the draft.
The harkas and moghzen were local back-up troops supervised by French officers. The harkas were combatting troops (around 80,000 men), whereas the Moghzen were villages “self-defence” groups. Added to the harkis, they totalled more than 200,000 men. It must be said that, at the end of the war, France abandoned the harkis and moghaznis: more than 60,000 of them were slaughtered.
The French army managed to seal off the borders with Tunisia and Morocco by installing sophisticated barriers named “lignes Morice”, thus reducing dramatically the supplies in men and arms to the FLN.
The French army deception strategies included the creation of a fake resistance group named “Force K” in which the French lured hundreds of resistance fighters. Some of them eventually joined the FLN but, once again, the suspicion created by these operations led to the killing of many of them by the FLN.
Vietnam, when I was there, was a hell of lot safer than Iraq. Large chunks of the country were safe to drive around or even walking around looking for booze or what ever. The techniques that worked to suppress liberation movements in Algeria, Malaya and South Africa were torture, concentration camps, and ethnic cleansing. Plus, lots and lots of troops to provide security.
The USA left Saigon 30 years ago because there was an ongoing mute mutiny in the Army. There were all the deaths, year after year after year. Finally enough politicians were elected who were willing to pull the plug on funding and the USA left.
If David Brooks is a prophet and a GOP Insider, the green light has finally flashed on. The USA is losing the Iraq War big time. So back to the old fashion methods of pacification. The bottom line is that it is all a moot point. There are not enough troops to hold the road to the airport, let alone clear out Sunni Arabs.
Ponder how the Bush Administration is going to get the boots on the ground. They are not going to pull out. All the withdrawal talk has fizzled out as even more troops are shipping out to Iraq.
This is by far the rosiest account of Vietnam I have read in a long, long time.
Rather than quoting or pointing to any of the excellent historical accounts, I’ll quote from a dispirited true believer, Col. Robert D. Heinl, Jr., “THE COLLAPSE OF THE ARMED FORCES” in The Armed Forces Journal, 7 June, 1971, and ask if Lang’s account could possibly come from the same universe as this:
I ask you simply, can Heinl’s account and Lang’s both describe the same war?
With all due respect, I don’t think so.