Shortly after the Boxing Day Tsunami, I wrote this diary on theodicy, “the defense or explanation of God’s work in the face of tragedy or evil,” in which I suggested that God’s presence in natural disaster is to be found not in judgment or good fortune for the chosen people, but in mercy and acts of loving service.
I still believe that: God stands with us compassionately in times of great need, and calls us to do the same for the suffering.
But unlike the Tsunami, for which there was no warning, and for which no preparation could ever have been truly enough, the aftermath of Katrina carries a distinct odor of human culpability.
This, I think, requires that we come to understand another way God is present to us in this time: the prophetic. Which is to say, in advocating for justice in God’s name.
Because we are talking about justice here, are we not? It was unjust to divert money from the protection of New Orleans to an illegal and immoral war on a country that never was much of a threat to us. It was doubly unjust to allow wetlands to be drained and barrier islands to be built upon to suit the demands of wealthy vacationers. It is unjust beyond description that the poor, sick, and elderly were left to fend for themselves against the onslaught of one of the most violent storms to hit US shores. The abandonment only deepened after the storm itself, as rescue efforts failed and government agencies of all levels wasted valuable time in confusion and unpreparedness.
How better to say it? What happened to New Orleans shouldn’t have. It was not right, and it sure as hell wasn’t equitable.
That’s right up the prophet’s alley. They were used to addressing the need for justice in times of disease, famine, war, natural calamity:
10 They hate the one who reproves in the gate,
and they abhor the one who speaks the truth.
11Therefore, because you trample on the poor
and take from them levies of grain,
you have built houses of hewn stone,
but you shall not live in them;
you have planted pleasant vineyards,
but you shall not drink their wine.
12For I know how many are your transgressions,
and how great are your sins–
you who afflict the righteous, who take a bribe,
and push aside the needy in the gate.
13Therefore the prudent will keep silent in such a time;
for it is an evil time.
Those who promote injustice will suffer God’s consequences.
But along with predicting the coming judgment on those who oppressed God’s people, the prophets announced God’s mercy and care. Jeremiah is especially relevant today:
With weeping they shall come,
and with consolations I will lead them back.
I will let them walk by brooks of water,
in a straight path in which they shall not stumble…
Hear the word of the Lord, O nations,
and declare it in the coastlands far away;
say, “He who scattered Israel will gather him,
and will keep him as a shepherd [keeps] a flock.”
God has the power to punish those who would do evil–but also to restore the lives of those who have suffered.
Now, I don’t know about you, but I don’t blame Pres. Bush for this disaster. He didn’t create the hurricane.
But he sure as hell stole the levee money for his pet war. And he stood around with his thumb up his ass for days while the situation in New Orleans spun out of control, demonstrating not a whit of real compassion or even comprehension of the depth of the suffering in that city.
And for that I want him held accountable, before his country and his God.
So I have my own prophetic oracle to declare today:
- Turn back, Mr. President. Even now, it is not too late.
Undo the hardness of your heart.
Unbend the stiffness of your neck.
Be compassionate as your God is compassionate.
The poor cry out to you–they are starving!
Hear the voice of the powerless–they are dying of thirst!
Listen to those who are elderly, and the newborn babe;
listen to those who sick, terrified, trapped and waiting for rescue.
Take command. Send every soldier, every supply, every dollar
for the good of the people.
Make this your highest priority, and demand sacrifice from your country.
What! Would you have the rich grow fatter?
Would you deny assistance to whole states?
Would you rather punish looters than save an entire city?
Would you neglect your work, only to leave it in the hands
of those who cannot carry it out?
God hears the cry of the oppressed and the suffering,
and the Lord is a God of righteousness.
You have built yourself a ranch and an insulated world,
but you will have no peace.
You have dealt in smugness and indifference,
but you will not be allowed to forget the consequences of your actions.
You have stolen the lives of thousands and ten thousands
for moments of fleeting political advantage,
but you will end your days in disgrace,
and your legacy will be bitterness, contempt and disgust.
You have not done what is right,
and you will never know the comfort of the Lord.
But as for the people of God,
they shall have peace.
Their parched and cracked lips will receive water,
and their children will feed on the finest of foods.
The fires of New Orleans will be quenched,
and the coasts of Mississippi will be rebuilt.
The victims of crime will know justice,
and the unemployed will return to work.
The sick shall be healed,
the homeless shall find rest.
The elderly shall end their days in comfort,
the young will dream once again of the sea,
and all will know the truth.
Never more shall they be robbed of protection
for the sake of war.
Never more shall they be robbed of protection
for the sake of the rich and the privileged.
Never more will they cry in vain to an unheeding government,
for they shall know the consolation of your beloved community,
and the newness of life sealed with the pledge of your rainbow sign.
God does not exist.
What happened to the city of New Orleans, to the city of Biloxi, what is happening to its poor, beleaguered people, is an intersection of human folly and a natural phenomenon (i.e., failure to prepare properly for Hurricane Katrina).
I find the prayer that PastorDan has offered up to be meaningless. What good will prayers do? Will God–if the Deity exists–answer them? Will God recede the flooded waters, rebuild the shattered homes, restore the dead to life, provide the necessities of life to the dispossessed, and smite the wicked men whose negligence and greed have allowed this to happen? If God is going to do those things, then the Supreme Deity had better get cracking.
What the people need now is a leader–a human being with a heart and a mind–who will make sure that they have food, water, shelter, medicine, and protection from criminal gangs.
Prayer will provide none of these. I am certain that millions have prayed for the relief of the suffering of the millions afflicted by Hurricane Katrina, and nothing has come out of those prayers except more sorrow and grief.
However, political action will provide relief. Run the Republican criminals out of Congress–and quite a few of the Democrats, too–and you’ll have yourself a nice start towards rebuilding not only the Gulf Coast cities but the whole of the United States as well, whose economy and culture have been looted by Bush and his gang of thugs.
As for me? I donated $5,000 to the American Red Cross to assist in the relief effort and offered up not a single prayer.
As for prayer to an unresponsive Supreme Deity, who neither prevented the hurricane nor has lifted one single all-powerful finger to provide material relief in the aftermath…I find them to be a cruel hoax.
I’m sure your contempt will do wonders for the people of New Orleans and Mississippi.
Your contribution, on the other hand, is indeed generous, and you are to be commended for it.
I have no contempt for the people of New Orleans or Mississippi. They have my heartfelt compassion as well as whatever material aid I can offer them.
What you have offered them is a cruel joke–show me what good your prayers have provided them.
There are people there who haven’t had food nor water for days. They are living in unsanitary conditions without medicine or proper toilets nor even the protection of police from the criminal elements among them.
And you offer them up a prayer that makes YOU feel good and does absolutely nothing for them–and then accuse ME of “contempt”?
I look to New Orleans and Mississippi and see a crisis that requires a tangible response–you look to it and see another opportunity to peddle your brand of Christianity.
Well, if we want to get down to cases, then, yes, I find your response–“let us pray”–contemptible. Prayer provides nothing for the hungry, the thirsty, the ill, the homeless, the frightened.
Let’s be honest–your prayer is all about making YOU feel good, not about comforting the people there (who don’t have electricity, and therefore no Net access, and therefore can’t read the prayer) and about making your Christianity somehow relevant and important to the material and political crisis at hand.
The people need bread, and PastorDan offers them a windy homily.
Not here. Not now.
PD is offering what he has to give. As are, I trust, the rest of us.
Pastordan has made his own contribution, and will be leading the response at his church. And after the relief is over, he’ll be among the ones pressing for justice for these people.
Your insight into my motivations is remarkable, considering that you don’t know me.
Do you always refer to yourself in the third person?
Your prayers are not helping the dispossessed. Whatever prayers you have offered have not provided a single crust of bread for the hungry mouths.
Your prayers cannot be heard by the dispossessed, so those prayers cannot possibly provide them any non-material comfort.
Since your prayers can offer neither material nor spiritual comfort to the people who need them most, I can only logically conclude that your motivation for praying is to make yourself feel good, as in, “There, I prayed and I’m a good person.”
Focusing your efforts on raising much-needed funds for relief of the earthly suffering of the one million dispossessed is a far wiser use of time and effort. I wish you the best of luck in doing whatever you can to raise that money.
I like you and respect you but I think it’s wrong for you to lash-out at Pastordan like that. He’s not Pat Robertson.
I “grew up” in the church, so I definitely have my issues. Any of us who have who’ve taken an honest look at some of the ‘ish that sometimes goes down have no problem calling bullshit. I don’t go now.
I “send up an inquiry” to God myself, wondering how He or She could let this happen. How could we be left with such a callous, spoiled brat frat boy who’s never wanted for anything in his good-for-nothing life. I mean, George Bush is just SORRY. Someone who let greed and nepotism rule the day, making our government totally dysfunctional. And b/c most of the residents don’t write him checks, his unmistakable attitude is “fuck ’em.”
I can’t imagine anything more evil than that.
But, respectfully, we have to put the blame where it belongs. I know you’re upset, but blaming Pastordan to find a source of strength and meaning from somewhere doesn’t put one drop of water of food in the mouths of OUR desperate brothers and sisters in New Orleans.
And they are our brothers and sisters.
Thank you for your kind remarks, Auntie.
However, I wasn’t “blaming” anybody, but rather questioning an idea that PastorDan put forth: the idea of a loving, caring Supreme Deity who will listen to, and respond to, human prayers.
The Deity did not respond to prayers to turn the hurricane aside.
The Deity is not responding to prayers to ease the suffering of those afflicted.
The Deity is not smiting the wicked men whose negligence, greed, and arrogance have compounded the suffering of this natural disaster, and doomed many thousands who might otherwise have been saved.
My question was, and remains: what good is this prayer? I find it cruel to ask people to pray as if this will somehow solve a problem. What is needed is human compassion and human intelligence.
And that is why we are here at BoomanTribune, are we not? To discuss ideas, to refute those we find objectionable, to promote those we find worthy?
…what good is prayer?
It helps find strength to carry on.
It provides comfort, if only for a night; if only for a moment.
It provides a way to find some center, to find answers. A way to keep on keepin-on.
Why pray? To quiet a raging mind. To find focus to guide actions. And there are quite a few actions we need to take: providing money, being volunteers, showing compassion.
And then…kicking George Bush’s ass and anyone else’s.
You’re right in the sense that this prayer doesn’t help our (purposely?) stranded brothers and sisters. They need water, food, and shelter, in roughly that order, and they needed it 5 days ago.
This prayer should help us; guide us; inspire us; rouse us–because we’re gonna need to do more than just cut a check and blog. We’re going to need sustained action over the long haul to make these people whole again.
Now, I don’t have patience for politicians and their days of prayer. Who gives a damn? That’s why there’s a separation of church and state. They can’t do their current job right, so they’re gonna half-ass another? Please. Their job is to provide for their citizens. Period.
I don’t have the patience for the strangely silent busy-body lobby: The Robertsons, Falwells, and Dobsons of whatever stripe or color. Their only job is to provide comfort to the comfortable and snow the rest of us so we’ll be the docile help and the willing cannon-fodder for whatever venture the George Bush elite dream up.
I can understand why you’re impatient. We all are. Folks are trying to survive with a dearth of food and water but an abundance of destruction and death from a federal government that does not give one hot damn. We have to be strong enough to care for them and to demand answers.
I join those who demand that our government do something. But to deal with the bullshit response and utter disregard for human life that is so vast that it is beyond my comprehension, I join those who humbly and honestly ask for prayer.
I understand that prayer can be personally comforting. In fact, that’s one of the reasons PastorDan got upset with me–because I pointed out that his prayers would not and could not comfort those suffering, but rather were intended to comfort himself and possibly some BooTribbers (and none of us are experiencing any real suffering…if we were, we wouldn’t have electricity and Net access to read his prayer).
I think that all faithful people should understand prayer on the terms that Auntie has set forth: prayers can be comforting and inspiring to those who hear them. However, I would like to add that praying for tangible results isn’t going to result in any, and praying for people who can’t hear those prayers is not a useful endeavour.
I suppose “pray and pass the ammunition” is the most sensible invocation in these times.
[Note to FBI monitor: “ammunition” is not used in the literal sense of the word here.]
Note to FBI monitor: “ammunition” is not used in the literal sense of the word here.
My first laugh of the week. :<)
…praying for people who can’t hear those prayers is not a useful endeavour.
Only in the sense that people know that someone cares, but I’d like to see it in the form of ice chips/water and a meal first.
Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition!
I used to be on a list with someone who’d lost a child to devastating birth defects; she had this quote as her .sig, and I thought it might fit in here:
I’m not speaking for anyone but myself here, though I find that my theology agrees with PD’s more often than not. Here’s my 2 cents: I don’t personally believe that God is Santa Claus. God operates on the spiritual plane, not on the physical plane. I absolutely agree with you, Shadowthief, that what is needed here is human compassion and human intelligence. So I’m praying that those who possess it will be moved to do something about this. I can’t prove that it’s a useful endeavor; but you can’t prove that it’s not. In any case, praying hasn’t stopped me from making other more tangible contributions–in my case money and politician-nagging–because God doesn’t have the money, and despite what they say, politicians don’t seem to listen to the God I believe in too well.
I don’t think we are here to refute ideas or to promote ideas, the site has heretofore been about letting people express how they feel..
Letting them without angry attacks, first of all, and if you don’t like what someone is saying you have the option of not reading it rather than continuing rants against other members or the diarist.
I am not in agreement with you, yet who cares, and who cares that you are not in agreement with Pastordan or anyone else.
We don’t need you or anyone to tell us what to think or how to take his or any other diary.
You might have Booman confused with another site.
Members on this site have many different views of spiritual matters, we usually let them speak and not challenge their beliefs. What really is the point of that.
Do you think you have the answer? I don’t,
You find it cruel to ask people to pray, I find it cruel for you to say it is.
Well spoken, Diane. I agree whole heartedly. Each finds their own way to seek comfort. It is not our goal to tell others what to think or believe.
is a very stong word to denote the feelings that a non believer has toward the concept of god and I can see where that person felt that you may have directed toward their feelings about the people of the Gulf coast.
I again can only hope that we can step aside from this bashing of each other and refocus upon the real needs that have presented themselves into our lives.
i agree, you’re use of the word contempt for a differing merely shows your own.
Your prophesy sends chills down my spine and gives voice to my heart.
I was lying awake praying at 3 a.m. this morning, and it occurred to me to wonder — where are the ministers of New Orleans? Are there any among the tens of thousands stranded in hell on earth? Are they able to provide any solace, any spiritual comfort to the strangers around them?
I don’t want anyone to be there. At the same time, I hope someone like you is.
Its Jeremiah’s prophecy not pastordan. Go back and read it, then read the chilling words of Jesus.
Very similar.
and not a cookie anywhere in sight!
Your belief that God is good is one of your deepest delusions and a crime committed upon humanity.
Jeremiah has been relevent in this country and in your church for a lot longer than now. You choose to ignore him in good times than trot him out conveniently as a trite “christian” response to an overwhelming natural disaster visited upon millions of people by a harsh and demanding God. I see God’s love nowhere on tv. I see Gods indifference instead.
Jesus carried on the work of Jeremiah. His Churchly followers (including you) have come after to profit personally and to foul up Jesus stern message
not advance it.
Shame on the church!
Jeremiah is important to me regardless of the circumstances, as is Jesus’ prophetic message.
And buddy, I gotta tell you, if I were in the religion business for profit, I’d be doing a whole lot better than I am.
there are different kinds of profit to be gained, altho as a minister I am sure your mind reaches automatically for the minted variety.
And I am not your buddy.
as practiced, but the personal attack is uncalled for and only demeans your position. Unless you have factual information the rest of us don’t, you are obligated to apologize.
and unwarranted. I hope that you have at least some measure of humility to apologize for this unmistakable attack upon someone whom you have no idea of as a human being.
Your judgemental deriding that because this man is a christian he therefore must be a greedy money grubbing pharasee, makes me cringe.
I am not a christian, yet I know many who give more than their share in the helping of those who have little or nothing.
I find this slam against this human being unacceptable and reprehensible in that you have no knowledge of this man other than he is a christian.
You will find your answer
only
when you dismiss
pastordan
and his ilk
which includes
not discludes
George W
Pat R
the Pope
the pharisees
the saduccees
all manner of American conmen
grifters
who seek to gain
from your earthly distress
Shame!
You have a right to feel whatever you want regarding faith and religion; but I will not tolerate the personal attacks on another member of this community.
PastorDan is trying to spread comfort; something all of us could use. If you object to people spreading comfort to others using what they know and what they do, then certainly we must delete Susan’s diary on comfort food. It certainly isn’t providing the New Orleans victims with anything tangible.
If Booman won’t say it I will.
This is troll behavior and its time for it to stop.
I have not seen such a revolting display of religioius bigotry in a long time.
characterizing someone’s belief in God as a “crime against humanity” is troll behavior.
don’t like proselytizing, then you shouldn’t engage in it yourself.
Your image of God, or your lack of an image of God is your business, but don’t shove it down our throats while making an argument against someone else sharing their image.
It’s hypocritical and it’s rude. Don’t be a prick.
Judging from the portrait of the Christian God in the Bible, one could assume that somebody along the Gulf said a bad thing about it so it trotted out the old “Vengeful God” routine again. Why anyone would pray for help or compassion from a horror movie character like the Sky God, a vain, childish, vengeful, genocidal, yet strangely impotent monstrosity, is beyond me.
I can understand why people want to pray to a deity they made up. It’s a natural impulse to look for, and to, a higher power. What I don’t get is why they wouldn’t make up a better deity.
My thoughts on the Supreme Deity, aka the Christian/Judaic/Islamic Sky God, are this:
Either this Supreme Deity could not prevent Hurricane Katrina from striking New Orleans and Mississippi, or was able to do so and refusedd.
In either case, the Supreme Deity is irrelevant.
If the Supreme Deity is powerless to turn aside the hurricane, then why pray to God? The prayers will have no real-world effect.
If the Supreme Deity has the power to turn aside the hurricane, but refuses to do so for whatever reason, then why pray to God? The Supreme Deity is cruel beyond belief–I’m no angel, and if I had the power to spare the people all this suffering, I’d have done it.
This is the same Supreme Deity, of course, who was spectacularly unhelpful during last winter’s tsunami.
Let’s face it–we human beings are on our own. We are going to have to call up all our energy and imagination and compassion for our fellow human beings in this crisis and in all future ones. The sooner we face up to that fact, the better.
to have to deal with hostility. I know that the people of New Orleans and Biloxi would welcome you Dan. Bush just asked for ‘cash money’ for the Red Cross.
I love that term.
What a pain…
…to be accused of “contempt” for people when I have done all that I could to aid them–accused of contempt merely because I don’t share PastorDan’s Christianity, and wasn’t shy about letting him know.
If PastorDan wants to go to the afflicted area and preach to the people, no one is preventing him.
a christian either, but Dan does a good job of representing my values to a Christian community. I don’t care that Muslims, Jews, and Christians don’t see the world the same as me. I only care that we care about the poor, the widows, the orphans, etc.
Anyone that has a commitment to the least fortunate is okay in my book.
I understand your attitude, Booman.
Do you understand why I bristled at being accused of having “contempt” for the multitudinous refugees of this crisis, as well as those still trapped in New Orleans?
that’s what I was saying. No, obviously you care deeply about these people in need.
I for one deeply appreciate your diary, Dan, and have diaried about it on my own blog and urged people to come over here to check it out.
I stand with you. Not only in appreciating your powerful and moving diary, but in your right to express it without being beset by rude gang of trolls.
I am offended by the treatment you have recieved on this thread by people who ought to know better and who will not listen to those who are trying to help them see the ugliness of thier behavior.
And yes, you got it right up top. Shadowtheif expressed direct contempt for you and for your beliefs. I was shocked that this was the first comment out of the box. The sad thing is that this person does not seem to know the difference between disagreement with religious ways of looking at and experienceing the world and expressions of religious bigotry.
by arguing and demeaning each other over a prayer. Each of us does what is necessary to help those who are in need during this tragedy.
My brother and his family lost everything they owned in Biloxi and I am grateful they are safe, just heard from them, they are in texas with sister in laws family.
I pray and I give money to help those who are in such dire needs. I can only hope that the anger and frustration that we all feel, does not needlessly cause us to attack each other for what we can or can not give to those who so desperately need our assistance.
I ask that calmer feelings be allowed to prevail and let us not lose focus of the real issue going on here, thousands of our countrymen are in desperate need of assistance and we should all be calling our representatives and telling them to get off their asses and get help NOW to the gulf coast.
I’m glad you wrote this PD, and I understand the anger that is being expressed here in response. Myself, I have had moments during the past few days where I feel angry at god for allowing such horrible suffering to befall defenseless people. But at least my anger speaks to a belief in god. I have also had moments of near certainty that the god I thought I believed in is just a cruel hoax designed to bring hope to people who want so desperately to believe there is something besides this life, something on the other side.
I get so angry when I hear people say that god spared their house or allowed family members to live. Does that mean that the thousands of others who undoubtedly prayed in thier hour of fear and utter loneliness were not worthy of being heard…not worthy of being saved?
If belief in god brings people comfort then I am very glad they have that comfort now, when they have so little else.
One thing that has struck me in watching the horrors unfolding hour by hour, with innocent people suffering and dying is the number of times the reporters have used the term “left behind” to describe the situation. I find it so sadly ironic that there are books out there that millions of Americans just eat up by the same name. The whole rapture mentality which states that god is vengeful and will bring down horrible pain and suffering on those who are not born-again speaks to a god that I don’t recognize. I wonder if those people who so fervently believe that their god will destroy the earth in a final act of supreme violence are watching the suffering of the innocent in New Orleans and wondering if this is indeed the god they want to worship.
I am sometimes wimpy in my belief in god, but the god I am familiar with when I am in the woods or when I am watching my children sleep is not the god from the Left Behind books. I hope they are ashamed of themselves today. Somehow, though, I’ll bet they will use it to further their hateful agenda.
Prayer or not, I believe in the power of millions of good thoughts and love being focused on something. Those good thoughts will compel people to give of themselves…and that is a prayer answered.
that God would callously leave certain people behind is inconceivable, and I simply don’t understand a faith that would proclaim such a hateful, vengeful deity. Where is the love?
Jeremiahs deity was pretty hateful and vengeful, too, right?
Why do you insist God is Love?
You know nothing more of God than I do. Just admit it for once and get off your podium and all will be forgiven
human dignity is apparent in your last statement to PD.
If you have nothing of a positive nature to interject into the discussion, why bother to try and inflame it further with abuse.
No one here has denigrated your belief or non belief in any way, yet you continue to mock PD.
I don’t understand why or the need to continue this mockery of another’s belief system.
I would make the connection that because I believe that Great Spirit is also love, having saved my life from the horrors of active addiction, I too must acquiesce to your statement to come down from my podium and I too will be forgiven by you. Where do you get your information that PD or myself have no more knowledge of a higher power than yourself. Are you God, did you create me and all that I see, touch and hear in the world?
Contribute something constructive and make your point.
The intention is never to mock anybody but to point out the truth as I know it.
I am not God nor his personal messenger and my reaction to pastordan is scripturally based.
I am stopping but not because I am in agreement with the “community”. I am stopping now because the sanctimony (mine and yours) is starting to nauseate me.
pastordan is fine. He speaks his piece and I speak mine. You speak yours too.
The “house” pastor role that PD chose for himself in the liberal blogosphere doesnt bother me a bit normally, but today’s “lamentation” did bring out my honest guttural reaction.
So be it.
expect everyone to embrace Dan’s approach to dealing with a catastrophe, but I do expect people to be respectful.
thanks Martin
in this world is merely God (however you concieve of Him/Her/It) letting us get ourselves into trouble. It’s a sign that we are called to have an adult relationship with the Divine, rather than the childish relationship that many on the Religious Reich call for, with God as Universal Punishing Parent.
We’ve been granted intelligence and reason. We can use it for good or for evil. We can drink ourselves senseless…then choose to either call a cab home or drive drunk, potentially causing harm to ourselves and others. We have scientific and technological knowledge to change our environment — we can either use that to improve and sustain the environment, or run roughshod over it for the benefit of the rich and powerful.
God didn’t cause the hurricane; we’ve had hurricanes for years. But what we’re seeing is what occurs when we tamper with the natural order of things, bending them to our will rather than God’s will be done.
If you’re a parent and your kid gets in trouble, your first inclination is to get them out of it. If you’re asleep at 2 in the morning and get the phone call from Sgt. O’Leary down at the precinct house, you grab your coat and checkbook and head downtown to post bail, then lecture the kid on the way back home. But eventually, when you get that call, you turn over and go back to sleep; sooner or later, the kid’s going to have to learn that he/she is responsible for his/her own actions. Same thing with our relationship with God; sometimes it takes a hard lesson to teach us how we’ve screwed up our environment, whether it’s destroying wetlands, building homes on landfill in earthquake country, or spewing toxic gases into the air.
Here endeth the sermon…
This is part of my point–if God didn’t cause the hurricane, and God isn’t going to stop the hurricane, and God isn’t going to rescue us…then what, exactly, is the point of praying to God?
For guidance?
We already know what needs to be done. We don’t need divine inspiration, we need political action.
Thus ends my anti-sermon.
I fail to see what God has to do with “advocating for justice”. Or, more precisely, perhaps, I would ask; “Is advocating for justice in God’s name supposed to be more meaningful, or pack more of a punch, than simply advocating for justice in and of itself?
I’m not being snarky. I’m genuinely curious to know your view.
we are called upon to be of service to others.
Omir’s Sunday Griot for this week told the story of the man who refused all help, determined that God would save him…ignoring the fact that God uses humans to do his work in the world. Those of us who follow the path called Christianity in our quest for knowledge of the Divine are called upon to “do the work You have given us to do” (as my church prays in the post-Eucharistic prayer).
The prophet Micah writes:
He has told you, O mortal, what is good;
and what does the LORD require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?
And even many non-Christians have become familiar with Jesus’ statement that “whatsoever you do for the least of my brothers and sisters, you do for Me.”
PD’s diary here is true prophecy, in the Old Testament sense. Prophecy really has nothing to do with predicting the future; rather, it’s an exhortation to the people to see where they’re screwing up, and where their actions will lead if they don’t change their ways. In a way, the scientists who have been talking about the ramifications of global warning are secular prophets. This diary is an exhortation — not necessarily to those of us on BooMan, but to those who claim the mantle of Christianity but whose actions speak otherwise, those whom Jesus later deemed “whited sepulchres”, beautiful on the outside but full of death on the inside.
Here endeth the sermon (part deux)…
CaliScribe, I don’t think that your post, thoughtful as it is, answers the question posed: Is action more worthy if those “called to action” claim to be called by God?
I, too, would like an answer to that question. Are religiously-motivated people who act exactly the same as atheists–that is, seeking social justice and redress for wrongs–morally superior?
came up with PD saying that his consciousness about his higher power and what he does to help those in need makes him morally superior.
I have strived to work in areas that will continue to help those in my country that are unable to help themselves and it has never made me morally superior to anyone.
As a Non Christian, I have seen the benefits of those who are christian in providing help to those in need.
Unfortunately as Illusion pointed out there are the robber barons of the christian world who prey upon the weak and sick, only for their own personal benefit.
I believe in what I believe in because it has brought me from a place of darkness and despair, into a place of light and hope. My belief has facilitated the complete transformation of who I once was, into the person I am today.
I did not say that PastorDan thought he and like-minded folk are “morally superior”. Don’t put words in my mouth.
I ASKED a question–Do any of the Christians here (including PastorDan) think that their actions are morally superior to atheists (or those of different religions) because they are inspired or directed by God?
I did not put words in your mouth and take exception that you accuse me of such action.
So PD does not fall into the category you described as religiously motivated people.
I fail to see where your argument is going unless, as you mouthed to PD that it is only to make you feel better in slamming the beliefs of others because they fail to adhere to your consciousness of reality.
Personally I find this whole discussion unproductive and having little to contribute to the suffering that is currently happening in the Gulf Coast.
I am grateful that my brother and his family are now safe, even though they lost everything they own in the devastation of Biloxi.
I can’t contribute much financially to red cross and other relief agencies, so I volunteering this weekend to sort and load relief supplies coming from my area.
My family is safe and I thank Great Spirit for watching out for them and yes answering my prayer to guide them to safety from the destruction of this hurricane.
Notice that the words you took from my post were phrased in the form of a question–a ? indicates an interrogative sentence. That means I didn’t know the answer and was soliciting from others. Ghostdancer, you made it sound as if I had declared this statement, indicated by a . at the end of the sentence.
I suspect that the answer is that most Christians believe themselves to be morally superior–why else bother having that religion as opposed to worshipping Ra or Odin–but I was genuinely curious to find out what people posting on BooTrib thought. The only answers posted have either answered “no” or else were so vaguely phrased as to be non-answers.
and I never have said any different.
That’s why I refer to “the path of Christianity”. I recognize that not everyone follows the same path, and that’s okay with me; what works for person A doesn’t necessarily work for Person B, C, Q, or Z.
The thing is, that exhortation is there for the person of the Christian (and Jewish) faith. That’s the viewpoint that PastorDan comes from, since that’s his background. Mine too. I’m not as familiar as I’d like to be with other traditions, such as Muslim, Native American, Buddhist, Wiccan, etc. — maybe those familiar with those paths can fill us in on how they view working for justice and peace. But too often, the exhortations to work for justice and peace are ignored by those who claim to be Christian…which is why, for many people, the word “Christian” has become an object of derision. (I really felt hurt by your posts, Shadowthief…but I know that it’s not me you’re addressing, but the image of “Christianity” that the Religious Reich has put forward.)
And ultimately, as I said, this diary is not necessarily addressed to any of us here, but is a “voice crying in the wilderness” to those who may listen and take action, and join their voices in crying out against the powers that be that ignore those who cry out for justice and aid.
You say;
I’ll rephrase my question. “Do you elect to be of service to others because you’re exhorted by doctrine to do so, or because you just have come to understand that helping each other is the natural and most beneficial thing to do?” Or put another way; “If your religion didn’t tell you to serve your fellow man, would you do it anyway? And if so, what would be your motivation?”
you have a bit of a false dichotomy there. God’s calling (it’s not doctrine, but a discernment) is what’s natural and right.
So speaking for myself, yes, I’d help even if not required to do so by my religion. I’d like to think that compassion is a universal emotion, but sadly, it seems like it is not these days…
I certainly don’t sense any hostility from you, and hopefully you don’t feel my remarks represent any hostility either, since such is not my intention.
I think compassion is a universal emotion, but because we’ve learned to be selfish and divided amongst ourselves, because we’ve come to see others aas inferior to, and consequently less deserving than, ourselves, we’ve managed to eliminate compassion from our natural repertoire of expression.
I understand the distinction you make between doctrine and discernment, as far as God’s calling is concerned, but I don’t necessarily agree.
The history of mankind is overflowing with examples of atrocities perpetrated by men who claimed God’s calling. More people have been killed in the name of God, or by those claiming God is on their side, than for all other reasons combined.
God’s will might be representative of what’s natural and “right”, but the problem is that what man himself often defines as the will of God is completely different. Many people believe they’ve been “called” by God to kill, to accumulate vast sums of money, and to achieve an unhealthy degree of control over the minds of others, but these people confuse God’s will with their own greed and lust for power.
So I think God’s calling is, for the vast majority of religiously affiliated persons, based more on doctrine, (and the perversion of that doctrine), than discernment.
Finally, I guess I’m still looking for a substantive answer to my original question, so I’ll put the question again in a different way. What’s the difference between being called by God to help your fellow man, and just helping your fellow man without the call? What advantage or enhancement attaches to the “called by God” part?
I hit post instead of preview before I had a chance to rephrase this sentence, (which comes across quite badly); So I think God’s calling is, for the vast majority of religiously affiliated persons, based more on doctrine, (and the perversion of that doctrine), than discernment.
What I mean to say there is that I think the vast majority of religiously affiliated people believe they’re called by God, but that they base that belief more on what they learn from the doctrine as espoused by their clerics than they do from any actual direct calling itself. So, if they follow the word according to fascists like Falwell or Robertson or James Kennedy or any of the other popular religious proselytizers, they are going to be led to believe God is calling them to look down on others who don’t agree with them, to be afraid of others who aren’t like them, and to enforce not God’s will but their preacher’s interpretation of God’s will,often with catastrophic consequences. And this is doctrine-based belief, not discernment of God’s true calling.
You’ve done a better job than I have of managing this question, sbj. Good on you!
It is a thorny problem for believers–can we have compassion apart from religion, apart from a belief in God? Those who are honest, such as the ones like Pastordan and CaliScribe, admit that yes, it is possible to be compassionate without believing in God or being religious in any way, but I can sense some discomfort in them (although I think they are quite brave to answer honestly–many Christians would honestly say that no, there is no morality without God).
The point is, if religious belief is not an essential prerequisite to compassion (or agape, “brotherly” love, as Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., called it), then the primacy of religious belief is not assured.
Ultimately, it doesn’t matter to me what people believe, it’s how they act. If they work to get food and water and clothing and medicine and shelter to the needy, then I don’t care if they are atheists, Druids, Christians, or even that new religion that deifies Elvis Presley.
You reinforce part of what I was getting at with this.
Whether one adheres to a religious belief system or not neither ensures nor guarantees compassionate behavior toward one’s fellow man. One of the things I’ve long held to be true is that there are no truly meaningful human values that require a religious context in order to be legitimate. This is not to bash religion, or to discount the strengths we often experience from believing in a higher power who loves us. But it strikes me that many of the devoutly religious people I know and have known throughout my life seem to have the idea in their heads that it is the religion to which they adhere that gives their principles and beliefs and values meaning and relevance. But, they have it backwards IMHO, as though they’re caught up in an “inverted cause and effect” kind of thing. In reality, it is the values and principles themselves that empower the religions that embrace them, not the other way around. And this is the big mistake, (I might even say a spiritual transgression), that so many of the more aggressive and judgmental religious people make repeatedly.
Very good summation of cause-effect. I had thought of it in those terms but wasn’t very effective in expressing the idea–you did a wonderful job delineating the true relationship between compassion and spiritual beliefs.
Thank you for the compliment. n/t
In my opinion nobody cares about the people in New Orleans. I think that’s is observable and let me put it out there clearly. They don’t care becuase it’s mostly niggers. I am not going to title any more diaries with that title, twice is enough. But that is what this is all about. It’s racism. Racism. Bush’s racism. America;s racism. Our racism and I guess….I don’t know how you can avoid it because if you believe in the God of Christianity….God’s racism.
I mean I need a drink after reading your stuff man. And I know you need a drink after reading mine. So maseltov!
So rated because you are getting WAY too comfortable throwing that word around.
With your first diary, I thought it was appropriate b/c that’s exactly the attitude.
But to go on and on with it is a bit much. I could go to any wingnut site for that.
I’m Black so I know how society views me. I don’t need the constant reminders. New Orleans is quite enough for the week, thank you very much.
I don’t care what color you are. I don’t participate in ratings.
I apologize for nothing.
Stu Piddy…you have some really interesting insights and you write well, but your use of the word is getting old. It seems as if you just like saying it.
I live in Uptown Chicago. I Grew up on the South Side. I’m not new to this. I know it’s a powerful word. So is Evil a powerful word.
I am using it sparingly but only because it becomes self serving and trite. Not because I am afraid of the word.
But I got to tell you something I am getting really tired of there not be an expression of outrage about this. These people are being left to die because they are black. I don’t care that they are black …they are people. Living beings and everybody is worried about the use of this word. People are still trapped in their homes. Probably hundred thousand dead and all because of these people who are perceived to be worthless.
So why don’t you start using the word and let’s cut it open and let ithe pus come out , cause it needs to come out.
Slavery has never ended. it’s shifted. But the use of that word and Slavery itself appear to be making a very strong comeback. The South is rising again. Don’t you notice?
The only reason people read the goddamn diary is because it has that word, “nigger” in it. Don’t you
I don’t know if you’ve read the other diaries that have appeared here in the past few days, but there are many many commenters who are very angry at the blatant racism that hangs in the air over New Orleans. You don’t need to shock the people on this site in order to be read.
Did I ASK you to apologize?
Well, I see you certainly have lived up to your name.
Folks-I actually have enjoyed this repartee and hope everyone involved is learning from it and doesn’t feel too injured. Christians of all sorts really need to know how their words, no matter how heartfelt, sound to others. Because it’s the dominant religion, it doesn’t take much for it to feel overbearing to non-believers. Non-believers need to be able to question what everyone else accepts even if their words sound simplistic. Can you see that one thing that’s going on is a power imbalance not unlike the one between men and women in some circumstances?
I don’t know how many times I’ve heard Christians say that we’re really all the same, we just believe in a different form of God…’taint so!
Keep up the good work of always questioning each other, it’s the only way we learn.
Thank you, very nice sentiment.
Actually, Christianity is only dominant in American life. It is but a whisper in European life. One can go on for weeks, months, or even a lifetime without hearing a single politician invoke the Almighty.
And yet the Europeans, lacking a public piety, somehow manage to take very good care of their people–by most measures, better than Americans.