For most of the last four days I have struggled with this decision: Go and march in Washington on the 24th, or no? The logistics were a consideration–I really can’t afford to make the trip, and leaving my wife with all three of the kids still living at home over an extended weekend is a lot to ask. The kids are too young to take with me (6 and down) and my wife wouldn’t go regardless–let’s just say that she and I have some very different political views in most areas. At any rate, it was going to be difficult to pull off, but I could conceivably have made the trip. I have decided against it–I’m going to tell you why, and I would be very interested in any input the BT community might have.
As I understand it, the message put forth by the people organizing the rally is “Pull out of Iraq immediately”. Now I may be wrong about that, but I’ve checked the links posted here at BT to the web pages of the event organizers, and that’s how I read it.
Here’s the thing–I don’t agree with that statement. While I want to get our people home as soon as possible, and while I believe they will probably have a civil war once we leave (no matter how long we stay), I don’t think that packing things up tomorrow is the way to go. IMHO, we went in there, as a country, misguided and lied to or not, and we owe the people there more than that. We need a structured withdraw over a period of time.
I have heard it expressed that any reason to march on Washington–any reason to demonstrate against this administration–is a good reason. I am more than willing to demonstrate against this administration for any number of reasons, including the war in Iraq. I am not willing, however, to back this particular message. I think the message is misguided, fundamentally flawed. I think that most Americans are going to look at the root of the message being broadcast, and turn the channel on those protesting.
What do you think?
I think I’m going.
I think the reasoning behind your decision is sound. I am not going either, as we can not afford plane fare, and there is plenty of work to be done here in Austin. I wonder though, in light of this past week, if the singel-mindedness of the message may be revised?
I don’t know, I haven’t checked the sites, but isn’t there a contingent (I’m thinking of Boo’s front page post a few days back) that is going to be there for the express reason of demanding accountability? If an umbrella needs to be put over top of everyone’s concerns, this could certainly cover it. Just a thought.
I would love to see the message revised. I read Boo’s post, that is actually the reason I gave it so much consideration. I may be wrong, and I hope that in the end I am, but I feel sure that all the press generated will focus on the stated message. And I don’t think the majority of people want to hear that message, I don’t think the demonstration will have the desired effect.
Perhaps we need to be proactive on revising the message — get some groups like VFP, IVAW, MFSO, etc. on board with the “We demand accountability” message — that covers illegal wars, Rovain machinations, givernment incompentence and looting of the public trust and on and on. I agree with you that if it stays focued on the “bring them home now” message it will be ineffective — the media will play it as a bunch of people with nothing better to do with their time, when so many are still suffereing from katrina, time for untiy and working together and blah blah blah, we’ve seen it work before, I have no doubt it will work again.
If it is too late to do that, then maybe we just keep plugging away — I don’t know how one would get the media on board, I still don’t trust them.
We must have an accounting and the time IS now.
Unless there were 5 million people … something astounding like that .. most of these marches are not worth the time and great deal of money required.
You’ll have more effect for the good in your own town and with your own neighbors, by talking about the issues and influencing other people.
but I had to consider it. I so wish the message were something I could get behind. And I so wish we could get a huge amount of people into the streets. People are pissed off–if the message were a little less focused, maybe we could. Clog the streets of DC, grind the traffic right to a halt. If only.
Re the message: In this case, I think you ask for way more than you really want/need, so that if someone were to decide to compromise, the middle of the road is something you can live with.
Re the march: I think we have to start somewhere to make the number of us who aren’t going along with BushCo’s crap apparent. We’re not the minority. Probably never were.
Don’t know whether it will do any good or not, but I’m happy to try.
Re the not coming: It sounds like you simply can’t do it, with your family commitments. I don’t think I’d come either if I were in the same circumstances.
I’m not sure I understand what you mean here: “In this case, I think you ask for way more than you really want/need, so that if someone were to decide to compromise, the middle of the road is something you can live with.”
I don’t think that people who want to see Bush go are in the minority either. But I think that trying to send a message like “Step down” or “Pull out of Iraq immediately” is misguided. The key is in the majority–the majority of people don’t (IMO) like the way Iraq is going, or how the aftermath of Katrina is being handled. However, I don’t think that the majority feel we should pull out of Iraq immediately, or that we should demand that Bush step down. Please don’t misunderstand–I revile the man. He truly is….well, the list is too long and colorful. I would personally love to see the administration step aside or be forced out, but I don’t see those things as realistic possiblilities. The point, as I see it, is that you can only control with a majority–a majority that is active–and that getting that majority to see things your way and act on what they see is only possible if you don’t push to far to the fringe. I’m not saying don’t push, or don’t push hard–just not too far from center. People are pissed, and righteously so. We need only to mobilize the people that already exist and get them to be active. Trying to goad them into activity though extremism isn’t, IMO, going to work.
The thing that is eating at me is that I could make the trip. It would be difficult, but I could. And I want my children to grow up knowing that I believe we can make a difference in our world, and that making that difference takes personal sacrifice. That striving toward an ideal is seldom the easy course. I want them to see that their father is willing to stand up and be counted for what he believes in, so that they will do the same. I’m just so frustrated with the message. Why can’t the message be reasonable? Demand a timetable, put the onus on the Iraqi people to get the work done. I absolutely believe that their will be civil war once we leave regardless, but leaving right now would be more criminal than what we did in the first place.
I should probably have made it clear that I agree we can’t just yank all our people “immediately”, whatever that is. I think we need to BEGIN to back out immediately, though. Seems more semantics to me than anything else. The people who will be turned off will be turned off anyway. Just my $0.02…no argument intended.
By merely saying we need to think about pulling troops out according to a timetable, how do you measure any movement toward that as a goal? “Yeah we thought about it, and in the future we will withdraw.” The Repubs/right-wingers never worry aboout trying to please anyone but themselves with their demands. It’s time the opposition party did the same, and stop trying to emulate the Republicans. IMO, that’s npart of why the Dems keep losing.
With regard to your kids, Susan was right when she said there’s plenty of difference you can make right in your own hometown. DC is a shorter trip for some of us. Don’t feel bad!
Ugh…if this sounds really garbled, it’s because I’m really tired. Sorry!
just to offer some type of alternative. The arguments that people make against that “The insurgents will just wait it out” actually have merit, IMO. I don’t have the answers–I’m just convinced that leaving immediately is the wrong thing. Starting to wind things down right away–now that might just make the Iraqis in charge sit up and take notice, help them to find a way to compromise. Or not.
And there is lots to be done here, as everywhere. The west side of MI is about as red as it gets, just as bad as Birmingham AL that I just moved back from. This state would never turn blue without Detroit and surrounds.
A) NOTHING could be more criminal than what we did in the first place.
B) This is exactly the same rhetoric that was used in Vietnam: “Peace With Honor.” Nixon ran two presidential campaigns on it, and the Vietnamese just continued to die. By Robert McNamara’s estimate, 3.2 million civilians were killed during the Vietnam War. Why? So we could feel honorable? They died for nothing. In the end, the only thing that worked was for us to cut and run. The “Pottery Barn rule” is nice in theory, but in Iraq, as in Vietnam, every attempt that is made to “fix” things simply results in more death and destruction. WE ARE THE PROBLEM, not the solution.
They do not have the basics necessities–still. Do you really believe that leaving now, while there is no regular supply of water, electricity, gasoline, security, etc. is the right thing to do? Would it not be better, for lack of anything else, to beg the UN to take it over? Or something? Anything? Do you not feel that we have responsibility there, as a country, even though you and I might not have started this whole thing? The America I know and love might not have started this whole thing, but they sure as hell wouldn’t leave it this way.
But you presuppose that we have the ability to make it better. I don’t think that’s true. I do agree that we have responsibility, but I think that leaving is the only good thing that we can accomplish.
When you have a bull in a proverbial china shop, asking the bull to pick things up and glue them back together is not the solution — you need to get the bull the hell out! Sure, once we’re gone, the UN and any other nations that are willing to provide assistance should be encouraged. But the first step and the ONLY way for things to improve there is for us to leave.
So clinging to shreds of our dignity, at the expense of innocent civilian lives, is preferable to admitting that we have screwed up. I thought that “Peace with Honor” had been exposed as morally bankrupt 35 years ago.
You presuppose that we cannot make it better. You assume that this situation is inherently akin to Vietnam, and that there are no other possible outcomes. I disagree.
You also assume that somehow I’m not willing to admit that we screwed up. Quite the contrary–we screwed up going in there, and we’ve done nothing but screw up since. I am not convinced, however, that the situation cannot be improved prior to our exit from the region. It is easy to say “Cut and run”, while it is difficult to say “Stay the course”. While I do not in any way trust Bush to do the right thing, in any specific way, I agree with him in at least that one area. The easy road is almost never the correct path.
You’re right; I do believe that the Iraq situation is inherently akin to Vietnam and that there are no other possible outcomes.
We are fighting a war on behalf of a population that doesn’t want us there fighting on their behalf. Vietnam or Iraq?
We are fighting to install an American-style democracy in a country that has no interest in having American-style democracy. Vietnam or Iraq?
We are fighting, not because we think we can win, but because we can find no graceful way to lose. Vietnam or Iraq?
I do disagree with you that cutting and running is the “easy course.” Staying with the status quo, even when it’s demonstrably not working is always easier than admitting one’s mistakes and facing the ignominious consequences. And that is the sad truth behind both Vietnam and Iraq.
We do not see eye to eye on this, and that is ok.
I’m tired. It’s been a long day, and I still have three shirts to pull and package. Along with about ten other tasks before I lay my head down.
I want to believe. I see the cynicism amoungst some of those here, and it saddens me. There are no easy answers, and I have no roadmap to success.
I refuse to accept that we are doomed in this endevour, that the absolute best choice we could make would be to leave immediately. I do not believe that Vietnam is our legacy, or that we are doomed to repeat that situation. On the other hand, I certainly don’t trust the current administration to be able to make things better–they may not even want to, lots money to be made in war.
You have obviously made up your mind as to the best course of action. I envey you your absolute certainty.
And I don’t want to belabor the point, but…. I’m not sure where you see the cynicism. I had an amazing experience a few years ago at the Chicago Museum of Contemporary Art, where they have a counterpart to the Vietnam Wall. On eight huge copper panels (both sides — think of a vertical rolodex) are etched 3,000,000 names of dead Vietnamese civilians (the number is an estimate because no one really knows, and the names are computer-generated for the same reason). Think of it — 3,000,000 civilians dead because we Americans had all of these high-falutin’ ideas of what was right and moral and what WE “needed” to do.
All I’m saying is that I don’t see how we can put our desire to stay and “set things right” above the lives of innocents. But maybe that’s the cynic in me.
A lot has happened meanwhile.
The march is an opportunity to put accountability out front.
However I agree that if the media slant from the march leaders is about pulling out of the war, it will lose a lot of convertible people.
On the other hand, if the numbers are there – 2 million and up – the march will take on a new intrinsic message, whoever the media get their soundbites from.
Yes, if the march is big enough, there will be plenty of coverage, and people will get a chance to voice some varying opinions to a nationwide audience. Problem is, I think the dude on the capital steps smoking a number and wearing a “Free Pot, Free your Mind” tee is going to get just as much press as any other off-topic comments. Maybe more. Other things going on at a big gathering are always going to get some press–but the thing that sticks with people are the main message most times. “Bring them all home now” will be paired with the numbers that turn out, and I hope it does have a postive impact on things. It can’t hurt. I just wish it was a message that more Americans could get behind. I’m not saying that a lot of Americans aren’t behind that message, per se–just that there would be a lot more if the message where more refined.
I don’t know, maybe I’m just whining here. I didn’t set out to–I’m just trying to sort out my conflicted views/feelings on this particular issue. I’m not saying that running with what I suggest is the best idea, or that people should adopt a slogan I coin–just that I want an organized effort that I can get behind. One that I can support comfortably.
I only get the feeling from many bloggers that they have reached the point of consuming outrage over the cumulative effects of the last few months of corruption, and that the Katrina tragedy has tipped them over the edge.
They will march to the WH whatever the message, because they have to show the numbers. They have to be part of a mass protest.
Strategic and tactical manoeuvring become meaningless when the whole damn show, including the DLC, is fucked to hell.
But don’t you go, really. Your kids are, yes, more important. You’ll find a way to contribute – there are still nearly 3 weeks to go.
I wish you were right. But I’m really tired of hearing this, given that it never seems to be “big enough” … even when it is.
I think you should be true to yourself and your beliefs. I think it’s that simple.
A big part of the problem I’m having with this is that someone I respect very much, who is very knowledgable, strongly encouraged me to attend despite my reservations. Their view was that the possible greater good outwieghed the “semantics”. I was just hoping to get some good input for my own thoughts from the community. You have all come through–and I am grateful.
to be outed as the person who told you to go. But you should do more justice to my argument.
than the mention I made here. But I wasn’t trying to paraphrase, and I didn’t intend to slight you or your argument–I’ve been attempting to do a little soul searching. I’ve learned some things along the way, too, as someone who has never traveled to do any protesting, or really done any in an organized form locally. I’ve limited myself to driving my friends and family nuts.
Lay it out for me again. I didn’t out you because I didn’t see the need, I figured that you might chime in, or not. Lay out the argument, if you would be so kind. I know you’ve commented here to some extent on this, though not directly to my point, I don’t think. You did, of course, when we discussed this directly. I would be interested to hear the argument again, and putting it down in print generally allows an argument to be cleaned up, better organized. I’m interested in your take, as always. And I’m feeling guilty as sin, like someone sitting on the sidelines when the opportunity seems to be right there, big as life. I’m already committed, now, I can’t make the trip–but I’m still struggling with the decision. And I want to clarify my thoughts on this type of thing for future situations. I won’t be able to volunteer the way you did last election cycle until my kids are out of the house, but I have to become more involved. Armchair quarterbacking has to end somewhere.
I really admire your open-mindedness.
I appreciate the comment, though I not entirely sure I deserve it. I do try, though.
I feel pretty torn about going. On the one hand, while I’m mixed about the specific message, I can definitely get behind it in a spirit of calling for accountability. On the other hand, I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve participated in marches in DC (and NYC and etc) and I’m tired of seeing all that planning and energy and resources used for little or no effect.
All that effort for a one-day page-three story that mostly focuses on the few idiots who use it as an excuse to break windows?
Plus, I think it’s a little ironic to haul all those people all the way to DC, given that the US is in Iraq at least partly because of oil. Unless we find a different source of cheap energy, we really really have to adapt our society to more decentralized and locally-based ways of doing things. Can’t we do that with our activism?
Sounds like an idea to me. I see that there is a call for local rallies this week–kind of short notice? I agree that being timely is important, but its got to be tough to put something together that quickly.
Were the rallies you refer to attending large? Was the response truly as limited, even in the local press/media, as what you describe? I find that disheartening.
Probably. It varies by location, no doubt, but in some places it can be tough to get permits, etc. I gather it’s middling tough in Boston — unless you want to put together a celebration march for a championship sports team, which can somehow have permits, security, etc in place with astonishing speed.
It’s not universal, but these things are nearly always underplayed and sloppily reported (if at all) by MediaCorp. It is disheartening. You feel like you’re a part of history, like you’re standing up, speaking out, tens or hundreds of thousands of people with you … and the next day it’s like you were in an alternate reality. If the media bothers to cover it, they’ll under-guess the crowd size and garble the message and spend half of the six paragraphs on the three buttheads who got themselves arrested. (And I’m not referring to the brave CDers, who also rarely make the editor’s cut.)
But I don’t want to discourage you (or anyone) from going, just because I’m a cynical bastard. Go. Maybe I’ll even go, too. It’s not like I have any better ideas.
but I’ll be marching with my spouse in San Francisco in our brand-spanking-new BooTrib shirts that I just ordered. 🙂
I’d love to get to DC, but actually, if the march in DC can be echoed in cities and towns all across the country, the MSM has to sit up and take notice. A single march in DC, no matter how large, can be brushed off as just a bunch of smelly hippies with no jobs 😉 — but if Joe and Jane SixPack are speaking up in the streets of Everytown, USA at the same time, that’s going to be hard to ignore. We need to call for accountability from this Administration…it’s time that Truman’s “The Buck Stops Here” sign applies to something other than campaign contributions.
I would love to see the troops home tomorrow…but I know that’s not realistic. But we need to have an exit strategy, something the Iraqi people need so they know how long they have to get their shit together to take care of their own business.
Do some checking — is there an event going on closer to home you can get to? Take the spouse and kids too…it’ll give the kids a chance to see the down and dirty side of democracy, and it will show what real “family values” are all about.
Blessings and peace to you and yours…
Thanks, I will be checking locally. And I will take at least the oldest along if there is.
the front-page, monkey boy.
What exactly is the scenario if the United States were to pull out of Iraq as quickly as possible?
Not sure I understand the proposal well enough…
I wish we had more details too. That outcomes were predictable, that there was anything we could count on in this situation. That is not the case.
The best case scenario I see here would be to involve the world–but I just don’t think that is possible. Even if Bush went around with his hat in his hand (no chance of that, hey?) the world wouldn’t come “bail us out” after the way this whole thing started. Its our mess, and ours alone. Count the Brits in, if you want, or just count Tony Blair.
Same thing we always leave behind. Corpses, orphans, minefields, Weapons of Mass Destruction.
brink of civil war either, my other option though is to have our soldiers over there under these fuckheads and getting nothing more than deader every single day along with a lot of innocent Iraqi. Some things I can’t fix, only improve. I think our window for being able to improve Iraq though is just about closed.