First They Came for …
and I did not speak out
because I was not the in Sanctimonious women’s studies set.
Then they came for the Touchy-feely hippy types that thinks war is inherently bad
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Touchy-feely hippy types that thinks war is inherently bad.
Then they came for the Idiotic LBGT groups
and I did not speak out
because I was not an Idiotic LBGT.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me
A definite trend I would say.
Perhaps someone should pick out the mote in the eye of the Democratic Party who highly regards Bi-PARTISANSHIP” (ie selling out) above Party everytime ….before… they holler bloody murder about the “alledged” mote in the eyes of true bi-partisanship organizations.
Is Daily Kos now the new lawn mower, contracted to mow down all those pesty bipartisan special interest groups who refuse dagummit not to be Democratic partisans?
How dare they!!!
Funny, this…
Particulary, when we are now watching on television one of the biggest bi-partisan fuckfest (pardon my french) with the Roberts hearings. No one is fooled. Democrats are going to vote for Roberts even though it is against everything the Democratic base thought this party stands for.
So, how does Democrats supporting Roberts “advance the Democratic parties mission — equality based on sexual orientation and gender expression and identity.” or women’s reproductive rights, or upholding international laws for war and torture…etc. yunno the whole damn Democratic platform?
That is one heck of a smote in your eye….
Update [2005-9-14 14:10:9 by Parker]: I just think everyone should see this tripe. Kos has been systematically disenfranchising “special interests” group on his blog and now Simon “DLC/NDN” Rosenberg proclaims in Newsweek that the Blogoshpere is NOT leaning to the left… the unmittigated gall of these people is sickening.
I saw that last night and thought…who’s next, and who will be left? Has he gone after the “NAACP-types” yet?
The new face of the Democratic party: white and Latino males only, spewing hatred for “special interest groups”…
What is the goal of all this “You’re not a real Democrat if you vote according to your personal beliefs” crap anyway? To ensure that the Democratic party remains irrelevant?
Straight white and Latino males
This is Al From’a DLC agenda to the tee…
The DLC blamed women, anti-war and gays for Kerry’s lost… et voila…
Kos is attacking them all like a good little soldier.
So, if women, gays, and anti-war folks don’t vote for the next Dem candidate, that will somehow make them win?
So, what’s next…inviting the Freepers to come play in the sandbox with whoever is left? Oh, I guess so…
Silly Girl… all of those elusive swing voters are going to magically appear and vote Democratic…
CENTRIST … now do you get it… in the middle… lacking substance, bland, having no shape or spine…
The key is that Democrats will be sooooo bland they they can morph themselves into what ever the polls want at that particular momnet
Well, I just hope they hurry up and repeal the 19th amendment, so I won’t have to worry my pretty little head about this anymore, and can leave the “important shit” like politics up to the big boys…</snark>
Swing voters? Yeah, that includes Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny and the Tooth Fairy…did I miss anyone else?
oh, no, it’s not THAT.
You’re supposed to still vote for them, give them money and work hard on GOTV for them, even if they refuse to stand for anything you hold dear. You’re to swallow what you’re told, like castor oil, and most importantly SMILE while you do so.
Shut your pie hole and vote D.
Fuck Armando. He’s nothing more than a 60s-era Daley thug, a ward heeler threatening some retribution if you don’t do as the machine tells you to do.
You mean that if you don’t kiss Casey’s ass you are not a good Democrat.
yup, let the corporatists in their climate controlled well decorated meeting room determine what’s good for us … and Casey is “good” for us. Primaries are BAD for us.
No pesky people or actual democracy allowed.
CG wrote;
So, if women, gays, and anti-war folks don’t vote for the next Dem candidate, that will somehow make them win?
*
thats the problem..they will vote for whomever is offered up…we all voted for kerry…fall in love then fall in line we were told and we all did it…rendell knew women wouldnt stay away in droves if he annointed casey to run against santorum without a competitive primary…he knew the progressives would still give money and work the election to get rid of man on dog boy (or is it dog on man boy – i can never remember)..a few of us make noise but i ont thnk we have much power in that way…we do have power but not in that way.
I reccommended this diary without any hesitation as to consequences…
Funny, and sad at the same time, but I had to actually think about whether or not there would be consequences for reccomending this dKos diary:
The Case to Impeach George W. Bush
I did reccommend it… Because I believe that I cannot sacrifice making my beliefs known for the benefit of others wish to silence dissent. The last time Kos did a major purge I actually wrote a comment titled “Am I bannned?” just to see if I had been banned… I was only slightly surprised that I wasn’t. lol
I can respect others opinions, and I try to as best I can. If I did not listen to and respect the opinions of others I would never have figured out that something like my last diary here was wrong (Hey, I deleted it… lol)
Perhaps, just to make a point, the next time I figure out that my diary is wrong I won’t delete, I will just change the title to:
“OOPS! This diary should be deleted because it turned out to be wrong!”
Why? Just because the diary was wrong does not mean that it did not hold some valid ideas, or opinions, or some useful nuggets of info… If it was only me, at least someone learned something from it and the comments. (Thanks smith & ?zootemesomething?)
I try to value everyone’s opinion, even the one’s I disagree with totally and completely.
That seems to be the general spirit of this site… And it the main reason I value the Boo Trib more than dKos.
At dKos I could get 27 “4s” one day and gain TU status on the spot, and the next day get “zeroed” by enough people to lose it again.
Why? Because of simple opinions. I see that as a bit of a problem since I strongly believe in FREEDOM OF SPEECH.
I don’t see dKos improving as far as censorship of strongly opposing opinions. I also don’t really care too much about it, since it is Markos right to run his little corner of the web the way he sees fit, as much as it is Boomans right to do the same here.
That is just my 2 pennies worth on this…
I guess I should sneak over to dKos now and check if I have been banned for reccomending an “impeach bush” diary… Just for shits and giggles!
Conecticut Man1 … about rec’ing that particular diary. When you have to stop and think about what you are rec’ing and commenting on because you might be banned, well … it’s not a nice realization.
To ensure that the Democratic party remains irrelevant
That kinda looks like the “Big Picture” to me…
As I said in another of Parker’s excellent diaries… Yes, that seems to me to be exactly the point. I think Democratic politicians, consultants, and partisan bloggers like kos have a pretty sweet deal right now as the underdogs. They’re the natural target for donations from those that don’t like the establishment. Bush is guaranteed to keep fucking up for the foreseeable future, so they’re going to have plenty to scream about to encourage the opening of the checkbooks. But they also don’t have to worry about doing anything more than treading water… Especially since they seem to agree with the vast majority of the Republican agenda.
The only problem is those pesky special interests groups and people who actually care about doing something about the issues now, instead of some magical future-utopia where anti-woman, anti-gay, pro-corporate, pro-war Democrats have taken control of the legislature and started passing all that legislation that we like but they don’t believe in.
Fortunately, there’s enough wannabe-Freepers on our side of the fence to demonize and drive these people away.
I think this explains quite nicely why kos is so in favour of Rosenburg and the NDN, doesn’t it?
Heard Kos on Majority Report. He has no judgment. Period. He stated that these “special interest” groups fighting and taking positions as part of the Democratic coalition results in a party that doesn’t have a clearly defined position, that lacks a “good brand.” Is he fucking nuts? Reproductive rights and gay rights are the standard bearer issues for civil and privacy rights. The democratic party embraces these two “special interest” groups–or, more correctly, the republicans ignore them–because the democratic party is the party that wants equal protection of the laws and recognition of the right to privacy in matters that are best left to the people (like reproductive health, romantic/sexual relationships, etc.). The hippies? If you follow the polls, most Americans are opposed to the war in Iraq. Are over 50% of American hippies? Treehuggers (yep, he used that term)? The democratic party is known for being the party that wants strong environmental protection and a sound energy policy too. Kos doesn’t get it. The positions advocated by these “special interest” groups are the positions of the vast majority of the democratic party. If the party isn’t seen for standing for anything, it is because there is no real leadership in the party (with the exception of Howard Dean) and, sadly, a failure to rein in politicians who go off track to further their personal agendas (like re-election). I’ve had enough of this framing and branding bullshit. The democratic party’s problem is not that they don’t appear to stand for anything, rather it’s that the republican party has controlled the tools that allow for effective “branding” (i.e., the think tanks, the main stream media). Ask a republican what a democrat stands for and he’ll know.
By the way, someone should ask Kos what the democratic party would look like if they got rid of the treehuggers, hippies, gays and people concerned about women’s reproductive health. No doubt the remaining party members could fit comfortably into a conference room at the next DLC meeting.
It will look like him…
Anti-choice conservative Latino Republicans
Kos has become his own “special interest group”! There are Kos’ special interests and if you don’t like it then fuck you and get the fuck off of my blog! Truly though, I find it interesting in a way how all of this evolves and individuals wake up to their place in the legislative process that defines their government and their world, then they gravitate eventually to the place that respects them in an effective way. Kos opened a door for me and then I graduated to my place in it all where I am respected along with all others. I like the Big Tent and I will gravitate to the big tent always. I am broken I guess! I have read too much Deepak Chopra!
What I think is interesting is the way Kos’ attitudes toward special interests is making so many people start to think that we need a third party to represent us, since the Dems aren’t too interested in doing it. Either way, it still ends up with the Dems playing the part of irrelevancy…
These are my thoughts exactly. (great minds, etc.)
It reminds me of what has happened to the Republican party. I won’t be any kind of John McCain though, selling my soul to the devil to be classified a certain party. Can’t say that I’m in love with any word or label so much that I’m willing to compromise my morals and integrity to keep it in my grasp. Fuck it! I’ll let it go! I don’t have to be a Democrat if that’s what being a Democrat is going to mean now. I’ll be an Independent I suppose.
That is a REALLY good analogy, MT. “I won’t be any kind of John McCain.”
did you see in kos’ request to his users for ideas for a title of his book… he and Jerome though… hey… this might even require a whole new party!
it just might.
he’ll get back to us on that.
All those titles sucked.
And I say this as a guy that’s happy to visit both sites.
I think I predicted this way back during the Pie Wars. kos is a centrist-conservative, which is what he was hiding behind all the “partisan” rhetoric. The fact that he uses right-wing talking points like “treehuggers” and “hippies” seems to pretty definitively prove that he’s either totally clueless about framing or is so right-wing that he’d be more comfortable working for the other side.
Also seems to quite nicely explain why he refused to cover any of the election irregularities, doesn’t it? His guy won.
Looks like Kos has been taking notes from the DLC.
– DLC | Blueprint Magazine
– Al From
This fake intracene war between DLC and NDN is pathetic… NDN was co-founded by LIEberman, Breaux and Rosenberg… not really a hotbed of progressive activism.
Thanks for the info. I didn’t know “LIEberman, Breaux and Rosenberg founded NDN
no, Pepsi really does want to battle Coke.
That’s been a source of puzzlement to me, but I have this terrible mental disability that causes me to take people at their word first, and only later figure out what they really mean.
Yes, Kos is a “centrist-conservative”. I think it’s a bit much to say his guy won; it’s probably closer to the truth that he’s not far from being a pre-Reagan, pre-neocon Republican, or a pre-civil rights Democrat.
The hostility between Kos and the DLC is, I think, a lot like the hostility between the communists and the fascists in the Weimar Republic: they’re not all that different, but they’re competing for the same group of potential followers, so the relatively minor differences between the two are vastly exaggerated for marketing purposes. (Incidentally, I’m not suggesting that either of them are like communists or fascists in any other way, except perhaps their absolute faith in their ability to determine what’s for our own good.)
I still think the DLC is the greater threat. Kos is just a pundit; the DLC has arseloads of money.
But yeah, bring on the third party. I’m tired of elections being a choice between conservatives and crypto-conservatives.
1. the DLC has arseloads of money
They also have connections with the media, so when the media person checks for a “pundit to opine” they usually get the DLC to represent the Dems.
2. I thought kos was going to reveal a “secret plan” to destroy the DLC, but the deadline was 1-2 weeks ago.
I wonder if he will do it.
I think that was before Rosenberg started to get sweet on Hilliary…
Well crap, now all those hippies and gender issue people are going to swamp the boat here. <snark>, Good thing Booman got a bigger server huh?
independent — I think now is the time I start capitalizing that bad-boy….
As I “confessed” to the other day, I did not vote for Clinton either time mostly because of his CENTER-ish-ness — the man played a good sax and he wasn’t an idiot, but damn, in hindsight especially, I can clearly see that they are ALL part and parcel of the same systemic problem — presidents change, congress goes back and forth, but the bottom-line is that our government, from top to bottom, is owned by coprorate interests and the super-rich…not only Americans, but the world elite. This administration has been in power for the past 20+ years — basically my whole politcally congnizant lifetime.
The only way to fix this will be a clean sweep, but that will never happen, so I am left wondering what to do with myself and my votes — I am on the brink of reclaiming my disillusioned voter status.
I am on the brink of reclaiming my disillusioned voter status.
Not you too! I am having an increasingly difficult time seeing how my support for the Democratic Party translates into anything I care about, and just slowing the tide of destruction is failing to motivate me. It’s nice to know others feel the same, and I hope we both find reasons not to jump ship.
reform the local party. It will take a long time to do, sadly.
a “center”?
The center of a doughnut is hollow.
If you push all the substance to the edges, then that’s what you are left with.
That works-
Kos, the doughnut hole of Democracy.
I think that would make a great sig line somewhere…
This exchange is priceless:
Yeah… and I believe in Santa Claus too…
Either how canst thou say to thy brother, Brother let me pull the mote that is in thine eye, when thou thyself beholdest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, cast first the beam out of thine own eye, and then chalt thou see clearly to pull the mote that is in thy brother’s eye. Luke 6:42
Does Kos mean this so-called “Progressive Movement”:
I can go on and on… So Kos had better remove these motes before he goes around bashing others…
One of the many reasons I love Booman so much is because of the diversity in the diaries and the civility and tolerance of other’s views. SOmewhere along the line we understood that the tent is big enough for all of us. I try to read as many of the diaries I can squeeze in. Even the authors I find I do not agree with very often. I do this in order to try and see both sides of any issue. My greatest hope is that Booman Tribune will remain the open, caring place I have come to know. Thank the Universe for the community this site has become and the voice it has given us all.
I tried to follow the rules here and not make it personal… eventhough it is critical.
I don’t think there is anything wrong with questioning the political strategy put forth by others. Nothing personal, it’s just politics…
It’s all the same rant: you guys should vote against your best interests because once we are in power and have taken care of everything that really matters we’ll get around to seeing if we actually care about anything that is important to you.
And the part we’re not supposed to hear is what they will be saying in order get these votes that our pet issues are supposedly denying them: we are anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-social justice, etc. Once elected, we’ll team up with like-minded repubs and vote for legislation that continues to deny rights to women, gay, minorities, and the poor.
Too bad you can’t turn these seven lines into a best-selling book of oh-so-cutting-edge political commentary! 😀
Ah, how I loved Phil Hartman. This whole concept reminds me of the “Anal Retentive” characters played by Phil on SNL. The Anal Retentive Carpenter started out cutting pieces of wood, then worried what to do with the untidy sawdust and covered the “imperfect” pieces of wood with paper sleeves.
As Donald Rumsfeld said, “Democracy is messy.” We can either embrace our diversity or we can cover it up with paper sleeves.
It has been since the pie wars that I’ve read or listened to anything Kos has to say. Haven’t and won’t read his opinion.
There are still some powerful voices in the diaries – including those that have gone elsewhere….like Booman and Welshman. I still read the diaries there…
Kind of like reading the New York times and skipping the paper’s editorials.
Excellent advice. I’ve been noticing that more and more of the people I was still reading over there are finding their way here, anyway.
I read Kos’ posts and many other frontpagers posts (except for Hunter) tangentially. I always scan the diaries first and maybe peek at the frontpage posts. 9 times out of 10 the frontpage posts have no interest for me or it is just more blustering and swaggering. Eh, Bush blusters and swaggers enough for the country, I don’t need to read it on dKos.
against liberal boomers and their fellow travellers. 2/3 of American society and its entire power structure have been fighting this war since July 1967.
“Gentlemen, unless these things are stopped, they will take over the world.”
As I understand it is this:
a) With the R’s in the majority, they control the Congress – they elect the Speaker, Senate majority leader. They control which bills reach the floor. They can then pass (because the have the votes) any nasty legislation they like. D’s can’t defeat their legislation or bring their own, better bills, to a vote, because the the D’s don’t control anything. Women, gays, minorities, poor people, middle class people, etc get nothing – by definition, just because the R’s are in the majority. The R’s will also vote to confirm judges who will make rulings that systematically erode our freedoms and rights – not a trivial issue.
b) Therefore – D’s must be elected. Just because they are D’s – even if they are anti-choice, silent on civil rights, anti-environment, pro-war, whatever. Because electing them will give the D’s the majority.
c) When D’s have the majority, they will block legislation that takes away our rights and judges that rule to support such legislation. Because even though there are some D’s who are on the wrong side of this or that issue, D’s as a whole are pro-choice, pro-civil rights, anti-war, etc. Once the D’s have the majority, things will be a hell of a lot better for everyone than they will ever be with an R majority.
d) So endorsing any R, ever, is self-defeating for any progressive. It is suicidal for any gay, woman, African-American, etc. because it allows the R’s to be in the majority and the R majority does NOT support our rights. q.e.d. any group that makes such an endorsement must be vilified and given no support.
Anyway, that’s the way I understand his position.
I think he’s wrong.
I agree with him that R’s in the majority are an unmitigated disaster. I agree that a D majority is infinitely preferable to what we have now.
However, “infinitely preferable” is just a measure of how badly the neo-cons have screwed our country. And will continue to do so, if we opt out of the political process because we are – very rightly – disgusted by many D politicians.
I think a better political strategy is to support D’s who are really and truly on our side. D’s like John Conyers and Chuck Pennachio, for example. Work our butts off to make sure they have a chance to take their message to the voters.
Because most voters are just plain disgusted with the wishy-washy “electability” nonsense. Too many people are just saying “a plague on both their houses” and staying home, or voting third party. More people would show up and vote if they had candidates that stand up for all of us, who have the courage to be honest and passionate about fighting for our rights. All of our rights. Our right to a competent government who can cope with disasters – natural or otherwise. Our right not to have our kids sent off to war to die for a senseless neo-con delusion. Our right to love and make a family with whomever we choose to love. Our right to our own bodies.
NARAL and HRC send the message – support our rights and you can count on our money, our endorsements, and this will get you more money and volunteers and votes. Doesn’t matter if you are an R or D – support our rights or you get nothing.
I think they are right and Markos is wrong. We must defeat the R majority, yes, but the way to do it is to get D’s in the running who will stand up for us. We do this by showing that politicians who stand up for us will get support. Politicians who sell us out will not. Period.
With D’s running who will fight for our rights – progressives will mobilize behind them. People will vote for them who might otherwise have stayed home. D’s will win. D’s will be in the majority and control the agenda. And the D’s that are there will actually fight for our rights, not just be not-quite-as-bad-as-R’s.
My argument with Markos is not just that his position is just wrong because it lacks principle – which it is – but it is also just plain bad political strategy for what he wants to accomplish – a D majority.
Kos is wrong…
Then why didn’t they pass their Social Security bullshit… they are the majority… because they were looking for Democratic cover… that was the only reason.
Pressure from that ranks that dared Dems not to vote on that … Remember the wall of shame???
So what does this “little minority party…that won’t” do…they keep giving them cover…
etc. etc.
on the Bankruptcy Bill ?
You are right on.
Just like this –
My corporate sponsors will give away the voter-credit cards with 0% introductory teaser rate, which will baloon to 2008% per annum if you miss your vote during 2008 Presidential election,” announced Sen. Biden, who has unannounced Presidential aspirations.
Brought to you by joe biden (D-MBNA)
When too many D’s are “giving the R’s cover” too many people will not vote for them. People who can’t bring themselves to vote R will just stay home. D’s will lose. Markos’s grand strategy backfires.
But as an aside – I don’t think that it was the D’s alone that stalled the egregious Social Security dismantlement. It was that the R’s realized that their constituents weren’t going for it and that they’d pay too high a political price for supporting it. This – in combination with pressure on D’s – is what stalled it.
So yes, even a minority party could be doing more – if NO D supports the worst of what the R’s put forward, there’s a chance to get enough R’s worrying about re-election to join the D’s and defeat it. If some number of D’s embrace the worst R proposals, it’s hopeless. No way to get enough R’s to cross over to block whatever-it-is. And there’s always more whatever-it-is.
Polls show most Americans want the D’s to oppose more – to be a real opposition party – despite the R spin about “now don’t be obstructionist . . . .” As long as the D’s “give the R’s cover” Americans will see D’s as wishy-washy, flip floppers, don’t really stand for anything . . . And the D’s will lose elections as a result.
He’s quite definitely wrong. His entire argument is built around the premise of “Republican bad, Democrat good”. Unfortunately, he fails to account for Republicans that vote with Democrats on important issues, and with the problem of consensus.
Specifically, working to elect anti-woman, anti-gay, anti-minority, pro-corporation, pro-war Democrats, as he’s been doing, will give these people more power in the Democratic party. This will move the Democratic agenda farther to the right, especially since these people will have disproportionate influence. After all, they’re the only ones ensuring a Democratic majority. If they hop across to the other column, they’d get lots of rewards from the Rs that they’d put back in charge. So they get to dictate their agenda. And since such people are almost invariably fanatics, they will vote for anti-woman measures (like Roberts) even if doing so works against other things they ostensibly stand for.
In other words, by electing Democrats like Casey, and working to help Democrats like Biden and Clinton, the Democratic party winds up moving to the right.
Of course, I don’t think kos would have a problem with this. He’d probably cheer it.
I agree with everything except your last line. I actually think Markos’ heart is in the right place – it’s his brain I have a problem with. Not that I think he’s stupid – he’s obviously quite intelligent. But as a certified smart person myself I can testify that smart people can do stupid things and pursue stupid lines of action – and this “elect the electable D at all costs, no matter what their position is” is a stupid strategy.
Have to amend that a little. By “heart in the right place” I mean that he really does want our rights and freedoms protected. But I think he lacks empathy and experience of many of us who feel marginalized – gays, women, African-Americans, etc. and this is what leads him to make this fundamental mistake. So I think you could call that a failure of “heart” too.
I was trying to get my hands around the issues that people are talking about here, and you summarized it well.
Kos is handing us a big, ole fat opportunity, if we have the gumption and energy to use it.
He isn’t the only one handing us the opportunity.
The democratic party has not recognized the rights of poor people, or low-income if you prefer, for a long time now, possibly since Kennedy and Johnson.
Poor people were in the news when the superdome and convention centers were stacked with dehydrating and dying African-Americans. Now the issue has been boiled down by the media as to what FEMA did and didn’t do.
The poor are still here, btw, and they still aren’t getting the assistance they need. FEMA still hasn’t set up a sight in Baton Rouge. Evacuees, I read, staying in Shreveport motels, haven’t a clue and are being told by FEMA to apply for assistance on the internet; some don’t know what the internet is.
There is a huge gap and divide in coverage of all related issues of class on the blogs and local media.
If you aren’t one of them it is difficult to write about them, but it is possible.
We are wasting time trying to adhere to a two-party system. I predict social unrest as this breakdown in assistance continues, and as the economy continues its deterioration and focus on a “service” and low wage economy.
Did Kerry even mention “Civil Rights”… I don’t think so. And when he made those weak pathetic “outreach” ads …he didnt even bother to ask the CBC their opinion.
Is Daily Kos now the new lawn mower?
He calls himself a “fighting Democrat.” Does it suggest that other Democrats are not fighting? Not sure.
But here is really what’s going on –
Democratic Congressional Candidate Paul Hackett Demands A Refund Of Kos Kidz’ Allowance”
Kos is now sounding like Gov. Mark Warner who recently said
“America Hates Democrats.”
This is not a good way to build a majority or win. But then, when you are the largest blogger, you have the luxury to be …
Why would kos want progressives to win? He gets many more pageviews, and much more power, the longer the Democrats stay out of office. He gets to rile up the masses.net by screaming about how horrible the Republicans are, and by demonizing “special interest groups”. If real progressives actually got elected and started enacting a progressive agenda, his pageviews and influence would probably dry up overnight.
You got a point… seems like whenever things slow down… he says something stupid on the FP to get people riled up…
You got a point.
Parker, you beat me by 2 min and a few seconds! haha.
Keep up the good work.
I don’t think it’s when things slow down…
I think he says those things when progressives start having a voice in politics. What is important right now… Katrina and it correllating discussions on race and class – clearly progressive based areas. What does Kos do? Write a anti-HRC screed to take the conversation away from the conversations we’ve begun. It’s the “look a shiny new bauble” approach that the R’s use all the time to great success with the dems.
In looking back at Kos’ posts for the the Katrina period, he has not produced one on race & class and it’s effect on the governments response. He doesn’t want to have those “touchy feely” kind of conversations that may actually help dems win elections.
You have a good point. If the Dems are out of power, people visit Kos’s site to discuss, rant, complain, propose solutions, form groups, get support, (you fill the rest). Once the Dems win the White House or the Congress, his site will see a significant drop in visitors.
Just like Rush Limbaugh’s audience grew exponentially, when Bill Clinton was in office, and now his ratings are down, because the Rep control the majority.
The link to hackett saying that about a refund to Kos I do believe is SATIRE!
He seems to think that politicians and pundits are supposed to tell the voters what to think so that the “right people” get elected.
Seems to me that one excellent way to get elected is to represent the people and speak to what the people believe and think and need.
I notice that his NDN PAC has a Latino initiative. It seems identity politics have a place, if they’re the right kind of identity politics.
It’s about strategy. Kos’ beef isn’t with the issues or the people who they affect. It’s with interest groups who endorse and fundraise for Republicans; a party who, clearly, is against their own interests. I’m sure Sen. Chaffee is a great guy, but his very presence, as a Republican from one of the bluest states, helps to give Republicans control of the senate. I don’t think I need to go into what it means to be the majority party in congress.
Our country has been under GOP control for last 36 years or so. All but 12 of those have seen Republicans in the executive. 7 out of 9 justices on the Supreme Court were appointed by Republicans. Since at least 1980 the Democratic majority in Congress slowly waned until 1994/96 when the Republicans finally took over the legislative as well.
Despite the fact that many, many of the GOP’s issues are far outside the mainstream of American public opinion, they continue to win. Republicans and their interest groups know that, in a democracy, winning is everything. They work together, in collusion, to do whatever it takes to keep their majorities.
I just don’t understand how NARAL or HRC can really believe that having a Republican controlled congress is in their best interest. The Democratic party is the party with a pro-choice plank in their platform. The Democratic party is the one who sticks up for the rights of all people including those in the GLBT community. Including women’s rights. Including minority rights. Including environmental rights. Including fair taxation. Including equal access to education and healthcare.
In ten or twenty years, when the fruits of the progressive blogosphere’s labors come to fruition. When we can look back on a decade of Democratic controlled federal government and Republicans shifting left to try to get elected. When Americans can see the benefits of universal healthcare, legalized gay marriage, federal funding for alternative energy, a fair tax policy, etc., etc.. Then, Parker, you will owe Kos, as a small cog in this process, a small apology.
Parker, you will owe Kos, as a small cog in this process, a small apology.
Good grief… he will hear that when he apologizes to NARAL, Hippies and HRC…
That is the whole point his “strategery” is ass backwards… while he blasts bi partisan groups for being …well bi partisan… in the next breath he promotes a supposed partisan democrat who the only thing they have in common with the Democratic agenda is in name only….
So what’s your solution? Business as usual has worked soooooo well for progressives.
We are not going to get a new vision for the Democratic Party from the DLC/NDN types who want to do away with “Old Timey” issues and ideology.
what are you talking about?
Progressive voices in this party have been increasingly marginalized for going on three decades now.
Didn’t you get the memo? Because we’re trying to stand up for what we believe in, it’s all our fault when politicians we don’t even particularly like lose elections!
Convincing the Democratic party that progressive values can’t win (despite polls to the contrary) was one of the greatest victories of the Republican party.
tooblue, I owe kos nothing. We owe kos nothing. The only ppl we owe is to the ppl of the whole of America. I do not single out any one particular for oweing anything to. I owe it to myself to be open minded and thoughtful to everyone, unless they tend to screw me royally, then I take unkindly to this! Now hear this, I am my own person. I do not take other ppls word for anything. I tend to find things out for myself. I make my own mind up. I do not like others to tell me what to think how to think what to do and how to do it. Kos tend this way and if you do not like his ways then you can leave asap without any discussion on anything..no compromising or discussion what so ever. So to me that kind of dogmatic rheteric will get him no place except with his own kind. sortta remeinds me of the republican party IMHO,.
to alienate so many of the MAJORITY of Dem voters and of all voters — women. Especially the young women who turned out so strongly for the last election, thanks to Fem Majority Foundation’s campus strategy with hundreds of workers across the country. (I know; I’m at a campus which hosted half a dozen of those workers, who worked darn hard — as did FMF’s Elly Smeal, who came back to our campus twice within a year and got great crowds.)
Add in feminist men . . . and now gay men . . . and all of us who, if not exactly hippies, were treated as such by some throwbacks then, and always will remember that the hippies gave us hope of a new way to live in this world . . . and who remains? Not a group of voters who actually support the Dem party platform!
I am disgusted and increasingly discouraged by these allegedly Dem memes on DKos. Does anyone have a sense that he really matters? That this really is the direction of the Dems? I have been a lifelong Dem voter, but dammit, I may have to become an independent.
I don’t know why people think Kos speaks for the Democratic Party. He doesn’t. He has one vote, just like the rest of us.
The Democratic Party I belong to is lead by Howard Dean. I haven’t heard him say anything about jettisoning concern for reproductive rights, environmental protections, or civil rights.
Right now, he’s talking about raising the issues of poverty and race given what happened with Katrina.
Because he has a 200 million dollar “think” tankbacking him… that is why.
A think tank that can buy its way on to the pages of Newsweek http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9339863/site/newsweek/page/2] and make a bogus claim that the Democratic blogoshere does NOT lean to the left… that somehow we have all become freaking centrist DLC/NDN clones just by clicking on the DailyKos link.
Well, firstly, Kos does not scare me. He is an Archie Bunker . I see him as someone who does not have the brain to see the forest for the trees, so to speak. When I left that site, I did not let the door hit my rump when I left. I from time to time go and read to remind me what kind of democratic party is, that I simply will not join.
I have often said that the progressives of the democratic party is a different breed altogether. The democratic party needs to heed the progressive thoughts and the number of which they are, otherwise they will cut their nose off to spite their face. There are way to many of the progressives out here in the land of oz that they do not see or hear from so they are ignorant of your being. I see it as you all have to really step up to the plate and hit a home run, for them to notice you all. I think I saw this in the veteran who ran in Ohio in their special election recently. I think this man will not run as a democratic from the dlc or the dnc, he will run as a progressive, or at least that is how I see it. If the democratic party can not see this, they truly need to loose.
As you know, I am an independent and I have said, I will not vote for the dlc memebers and I seriously mean this. As I talk to others of my cloth, I hear the same thing. So it is up to those who want to win, to do the winning. I think it will not be the dlc for the most part, it will be true Americans over all that will run and do the winning.
I have often said we need to wipe the slate clean and start all over again. Get the old parties of both sides out of there and start anew.
Tracy, my dear, since you are active military, this is were youare getting your anger. This is why we stay clear of the dangerous of both parties, or at least that is how I understand it. I am for Gen. Clark; however, if he goes the dlc route, he has lost my vote. He needs to loose the Clinton tag altogether, too. I am begining to think more of Senator Finegold (sp). I want to see more of what he stand for on many issues.
That is just me tho. I am one of those independents that you want in your corner. I have said on occassion that I think I lean more left than most democrats do….:o)…
Good diary. To hell with Kos. He doesn’t tell me who, what, when, and where. I am an adult, contrary to his belief, and I think for myself, thank you very much! I have found my voice, and I will not give it away for anybody for anything!
is when I leave this site. Because no one will speak up against people bashing the great online hope of this party, whatever his flaws.
Booman, you’re awesome, I love you buddy. But I seem to find myself the last Kossack standing over here. I might come back. But not soon.
great online hope of this party
Me thinks you doth protest too much…
Give me a break… DailyKos is just an online version of the DLC… the cause of the downfall of this party. Kos is just advocating more of the same shit.
Parker, I’m not sure whether to laugh, to cry, or to urge you to seek competent psych advice.
Did you really just write this?
Did you forget a snark tag?
Are you fucking serious? Good lord, the arrogance just slays me.
Did you miss the part where a lot of us who post here are not part of “this party”?!?
A. Unthinking allegiance is not what this country needs — we have that sort in power now, and see where it has taken us. The Bushies say “whatever his flaws,” too.
B. Women’s rights, gay rights — indeed, a true democracy and the principles in the Democratic Party platform — are not “whatevers” to me or many, perhaps most (you will find out, won’t you?) Dem voters.
That you put personality before principles, platform, and the people means you need to reread . . . the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, the Democratic Party platform, for starters. When you’re done, come on back.
As far as I know Boo doesn’t hire online thugs… to beat dissent out of the diaries…
I understand my contract for Ms Online BT Thug is in the mail…
When is the mac version of that coming out?
which is a fact that many people forget.
I can’t help it if Kos keeps alienating chunks of his community. And I can’t defend it either.
I’ll probably write about this latest thing soon, and I will be fair. But people have a right to their opinions, Nonpartisan, what would you have me do?
until we were pushed out/banned/frozen out for not being ‘branded’, which only means we think for ourselves.
It’s only a matter of time for you and others who continue to think for yourselves. At some point you will become ‘the enemy’ because ultimately they think just like Bush does: either you’re with me or against me. Life is not like that at all because the truth usually lies in-between and hearing this dictum just let’s you know you’re dealing with just another set of male control freaks.
wasn’t addressed to me, but fairness is always a good place to start.
This is what I think fairness on this issue would look like:
If one calls out so-called “special interest” organizations (such as HRC, NARAL, or any other) for endorsing Republican candidates, it is hypocritical (and that’s putting it very kindly indeed) to feign blindness when elected Democrats not only endorse, but actively promote, the hardline 100% Republican agenda on these same issues.
As I wrote in a recent diary on this same subject:
Loyalty can be either a two-way street or a dead-end alley. I know which one sounds fair to me.
I know you’re a Kossack, Booman. I respect you for that.
Honestly, I do think you need to silence dissent on this issue. Not criticism of Kos, but attacks on his character that do nothing but tear down the magnificent edifice we all built. Things like “Fuck you Simon and your little Kos too” which appears downthread.
The thing is, NOTHING matters until we are in power again. NOTHING. Not changing Kos, not who we attack or alienate, NOTHING until the radical right is gone from the American political scene. Kos has the ear of powerful people, from media types to politicos. He alone in the blogosphere can raise serious cash for candidates, and that makes them listen to him. And to us.
For whoever is at the head of our organization, it is we, not Kos, who are mighty. At the end of the day, it is the community of DKos that runs the show; all Kos gets to do is spew his bile on the front page. We give the money to candidates, we have the power. So when these people with their “opinions” attack Kos, they attack all 60,000 of us who stand with him.
And they attack you, Booman, because you are a Kossack too. Don’t think you’re immune from their rage. They will tear you down as surely as they are tearing him down. They have already marginalized your site by turning it into LSF II. Now they will eat it until there is nothing left but you and the LSF crowd, and your site can do NOTHING for the cause.
Is that worse than censorship? I think so. Armando has already told you all this, and you have not listened. So — nothing else for me to say here. Do your thing.
tear down the magnificent edifice we all built
Where do you get this shit from???
Who is tearing down what? How many times has Kos torn down his community and given them the finger… like it or lump it.
Now that he has cleared the decks Simom “DLC/NDN” has the fucking nerve to say that the blogosphere meaning Daily Kos is somehow “naturally” doesn’t lean to the left… they are a bunch of cons.
Silence dissent? Nothing matters until “we” are in power?
Then, once “we” are in power, I suppose nothing will matter but keeping it.
Screw that crap.
We got burned in Colorado by electing a Democrat–Ben Nighthorse Campbell–as senator only to have him switch parties. I supported Ken Salazar only to watch with dismay as he cozied up to Gonzales. I’m through with this “we” nonsense. No more votes for DINOs. No more party before principle.
nonpartisan, I consider that verbal intimadation! If you truly feel that way, you need to stick to your own site and leave us alone to think how we think. I take this personally critical nonthinking on your part. I used to like to be at kos till he gave me and others the plunge to leave if we did not like it there. So I left. I see your kind every day on the street here where I live. I do notstop to give them the time of day. I do not stay awake at night to think of ways to bring them over to my side of the street. They know the way. I am one for conserving energy in many ways, if you get my drift. Onece I left, I felt a big cloud lift from my shoulders for leaving. Yes I go and read to see what is going on in the dlc…bs…but you know what, I am very happy right where I am…so go and stuff that one down your pipe and smoke it, if you will. I personally do not like being intimated by the other side of this dark street we are on. I would hope you would wake up and see the difference, but it is very obvious you wont so thank you for your time. Go and sit back into the area of kos and get your time wasted..or better yet let your time be wasted for you. Closed minds get not where if they are not used…they decay to turn to a nut….nothing…..remember shrivo [sp]? the comas produced by the dlc and their erks are what is wrong with our country and the democratic party….that is why I am not one of them. I do not go places and say thing that I know will get me into deep shit….that is just plain nonsense. I learned a long time ago, not to do things like that or I might be eaten up alive….so I pic my fights and kos is not one of them…sorrrrrrrrrrryyyyy to say. I got along well before I met him and I got along well afterwards too. Thank and have a great day.
I think maybe you should consider a name change as this seems to be a misnomer.
Wow. That was very…interesting.
Isn’t it… it is like they talk in the “evil-doer” comic book language… and notice it is only the men…
Woah… I don’t know what comic books you’re reading… I’d take Stan Lee, Frank Miller, or Art Spiegelman over a Kerry or Bushism anybody…
“They have already marginalized your site by turning it into LSF II.”
Nice jab, it almost hurt.
Honestly, I do think you need to silence dissent on this issue….
The thing is, NOTHING matters until we are in power again. NOTHING.
Well, I guess that says it all, doesn’t it? It’s not about principle. It’s not about democracy. It’s not about our Constitutionally protected freedoms. None of that is really important. What matters is power. If you listen carefully, you can hear the founding fathers rolling in their graves. People gave their lives so that we could have a nation founded on the right to dissent, to speak truth to power, to be free from the yoke of oppression… but none of that matters if people disparage one self-inflated blogger. Sad.
and totalitarianism is one of the greatest threats to a democracy.
If I truly believed Kos and Armando truly believed as you do, it would be the most searing indictment of what they do.
It is not about them; it is about what they say and do.
So this is not about you, either, but about what you say and do here. Based on that, you are not a liberal or a progressive. Indeed, what you say is scarier than even what many Repugs would say.
Go read the parties’ platforms and see if you fit anywhere in a democracy.
I hope your crocodile tears don’t short out your keyboard.
The difference is that I see Kos doing the bashing, and doing it repeatedly.
If he can call “bullshit” on NARAL, HRC, and others, then we can call “bullshit” on his attacks on major groups within the progressive coalition(s).
You said that so much more succinctly than I did.
I know that there are several kossacks here at BT. I used to be one, but left after the pie wars.
Because no one will speak up against people bashing the great online hope of this party, whatever his flaws.
We do a lot of bashing here. We bash the media. We bash the administration. We bash other Dem-centered sites, bloggers and groups. Well, you can call it bashing or you can call it what I prefer – “criticizing”. No one ought to be immune from criticism. If we hold someone above criticism, we hold them up as being flawless and that just transcends the reality of life. No one is flawless.
Should we give up our right to criticize Daily Kos or Markos’ opinions? There’s plenty of that criticism flying around at dKos every day. Will you leave that site as well? Or, are you just concerned with the lack of balance? Is there balance to be found in some of these issues that are being criticized? Should people who feel alienated from the big tent stay silent? Is there no room for other sites to act as a “great online hope of this party”? Ought dKos be the only one? Is it truly that to begin with? If so, why do you think it is as opposed to other sites? Is it the volume of traffic? Is it the site’s visibility? What is it? If it’s the stance on issues and you agree with that stance lock, stock and barrel then dKos is the place for you. If you’re unable to withstand criticism of those platforms (despite the fact that they happen there as well), then perhaps other sites are not for you. Fair enough, but don’t expect to find some sort of criticism free zone because that’s not going to happen.
This is about free speech. As in life, free speech is not always balanced. I’m sorry you feel you have to leave because this community is one of the most diverse dedicated to the political left where opinions are respected. I could respect your opinion in that post more if you’d expand on it. That’s what we seek here – understanding. We seek to be united as people who collectively understand each other. It’s unfortunate that you don’t see that.
is necessary in a democracy. Questioning leadership. If the DLC considers someone a leader, we get to question that supposition — and that person’s positions. Period.
But then, I seem to always agree with Catnip.
the great online hope of this party
Um, dude, the guy runs a website that the overwhelming majority of the American public, left and right, has never heard of. dKos is a minor affair compared to, say, Slashdot, and most Americans have never heard of Slashdot, either.
Politicians (or their secretaries) do show up at dKos. They also show up at barbecues with attendances in the low hundreds. Maybe we should keep a list of those barbecues so we don’t accidentally bash the great barbecue hope of “this party” as well.
The biggest problem with dKos, IMHO, is this amazingly overinflated sense of importance that infests everything over there. Markos is just some guy with a website that is fairly popular — but only in the incredibly tiny, inbred world of dedicated political websites. If we’re going to pin our last great hope on something, let’s pin it on something non-trivial and not on some really obscure cult of personality.
Damn, look, I know I’m fucked up but do you have to be so harshly brutally honest about it all?! What is this? A blogging intervention or something? I feel completely naked at this moment. I feel exposed and vulnerable now! Where’s the ice cream?! sniff*sniff, lip tremble
You make a good point. Slashdot probably has at least a hundred times as many readers as Kos. And Cmdr Taco and michael are quite left-wing most of the time. I suppose that means that Slashdot is really the great online hope of this party?
(… </snark> Slashdot isn’t the great hope of anything. A greater hive of scum and villainy you will never find…)
every time I see a pol at a barbecue. Thanks for that!
Or every time I see a great baseball game hope of the party, or a great small-town parade hope of the party. . . .
…I leave this site. Because no one will speak up against people bashing the great online hope of this party, whatever his flaws.
Well, why don’t you step up and defend him? If he is your great online hope, then you tell us why. Don’t expect Booman to do it. If you truly believe it, then here’s your chance to explain why. I certainly won’t troll rate you for expressing your opinion. That’s what is nice about BT, you can actually express a dissenting opinion without getting troll rated to oblivion.
I still have a Kos account. I still post and I still read. But I haven’t bought into the “Markos is the end all be all of the Dem party” bullshit. Does that make me any less of a person?
Bye. Fare thee well, best wishes, etc.
nonpartisan… I think it’s an old failure, this plan to clean out the people that feel TOO STRONGLY, and the idea that what remains is victory.
And all the more so because this is exactly what kos criticizes about the DLC.
He know/knew.
my hope is gone, now dkos begins to look like an energy sink rather than a hope.
sorry about that… really really sorry, and I mean it.
the success of an internet business does not a great hope make, not for political hopes.
Straw that broke the camel’s back, and all that.
I’m going to change my nom de blog.
No more free advertising for them when I post.
See the diary I’m posting & take the poll to help select my new pond name. 🙂
He uses the web.
but I want to say that I found the discussions on Kos’ postings linked in this diary to be so thoughtful and thought-provoking as to make Kos’ immature generalizations very useful. Every once in a while I follow a link here and am treated to some very thoughtful discourse on DKos. Kos is just one guy but the Kos community still has some very good writers and thinkers. I swore off Kos in pie fight days, but thinking more cooly now I don’t want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Well, by golly whiz. Another pie war. Or whatever.
Missed it entirely. Probably because I don’t read much of what Kos writes, although I do skim some of the diaries, as remarked on by SallyCat and others. I think he’s smart and clever and good at marketing, but I’m afraid he’s started to believe his own publicity.
There’s a very high level of agita over there–rant, shout, keep adrenaline levels up, all the time. Lots of macho swagger. Here, not so much. I’m more inclined to take the time to read front-page articles, because they are informative and substantive. I skim though the diaries, look at some of the recommendeds, read more of the not-yet-recommendeds. I learn a lot. BooMan and Susan have distinctive voices, but they also leave room for other voices, other ideas.
Too often, if I prepare to comment on something at dKos, I hesitate, frequently cancel the comment, because I really don’t want to get dumped on by someone who hasn’t bothered to read the thing carefully and is making a nasty or too-hasty and substance-free reply.
But my main question now is: Has anyone opened up the welcome wagon? Brew up a fresh pot, set out the teapot, wash some extra cups and flatware.
Mnemosyne, I too have done that, even here. But what the heck…..you know, we all have something to say and to contribute to the cause. You do to….
I would like to see the welcome wagon again…bs….maybe a little tea and quiet conversation will do us all some good.
After all that we all ahve been through lately with eveything that has happened to America, it seems we all need to take a little break…I know I sure could. Hugs….
When Armando gets personal, people notice, and reveals a truth underneath the veneer of principled disagreement. Armando is not Kos, and to his credit has written a lot lately about the importance of women’s equality and reproductive rights — a helluva lot more than Kos — but the tone from the front page is clear: they are the “chiefs” and we are the “indians.” (Apologies to our Native American brothers and sisters, but the expression seems to capture the apparently regressive attitude coming forth, at least from my perspective.)
Has any one read this shit
FUCK YOU SIMON and your little Kos too
What a pompous git
What fucking tripe… you DLC clone…
An amazing prick…
UNFUCKING BELIEVEABLE
I am the only one who finds Parker’s shouting and vulgarities and personal attacks distasteful? Counterproductive? Boring?
Parker, if you can’t make a reasoned argument, please try listening instead.
OK, Parker. I’ve read your update. And now I find it just ahead of me here in the comments list.
I have a question: Who is Simon Rosenberg and why should I pay any attention to what he has to say?
Seriously. I have no idea who this person is. Nor do I much care, but that’s another thing entirely.
And a bit OT, but re your sig line: To the list of all those things, you can add “how we address our mail.” Got the notice yesterday that my pleasantly anonymous Rural Route number is no more, to be replaced by a house number. Like 911 really needs that in a town of fewer than a thousand souls. Grump, grump.
Well, thank God there’s a group of brave bloggers who’ll stand up to Kos by whining incessantly about him, exaggerating his persecution, distorting his views, and puffing themselves up on a whole other blog. If we didn’t have self-righteous alarmists who were willing to see Kos’ editorials as both a threat to real progressives everywhere and their ticket to Mojo, I don’t know where we’d be. Truly a difference has been made here thanks to the bravery of those who will lob handfuls of rotting fish for seal claps. Changing the world, one feigned affront at a time. Kudos!
it’s amazing how out of place this comment seems here Addison. It’s also nice to see no one bothered to rate the comment even though it is hostile.
My diary today was actually a defense (of sorts) of Markos, in that I was saying that he not selling out to the DLC and that he not anti-progressive, and that his strategy makes a lot of sense.
I also disagree with his strategy and his way of expressing his strategy (sometimes). But I posted it over there and it is seen as an attack.
It shows how tone-deaf the Kossack community has become. People actually expressing surprise that Kos is increasingly seen as an enemy of progressives? Open up the windows and visit the rest of the blogosphere…
When I am seen as the enemy, you know the kool-aid has turned rancid.
Out of place? You’ve got to be kidding me. Daily Kos is called the doughnut hole of democracy, Kos is a pompous git, amazing prick, a DLC clone, Armando is a 60’s era Daley thug, and my comment is out of place? The all-important “tone” of my comment — and the comments about replies to your diary over at Daily Kos — was used because of the tone I saw over here. The substance of my comment was based in my opinion, but I assume you’re not telling me my opinion is out of place.
You’re for the most part on solid ground with the meat of your criticisms (though I don’t think you listed the progblogs that view Kos as an enemy while I was active in that thread). And Armando continued his debate with you well past the point of diminishing returns. However, with most of the posters in this thread it’s beyond clear that in order to feel righteous themselves someone else has to be cast as Satan. There’s no way they can feel politically alive or right or worthwhile without defining themselves as the opposite of some straw demon, now Kos, and exorcizing it. A lot of people got bored with ripping Bush and they had to teeth on something to pass the time. From the looks of this thread BoomanTribune is now a lost cause as far as any meaningful partnership or cooperative with Daily Kos. I don’t think anyone on either side cares, but it is too bad. It’s a good thing most of the yellers are — as opposed to the issues they use as excuses for their yelling, a distinction lost over and over and over — so blustery and inconsequential.
But what do I know, I’m just a Daily Kos stormtrooper…
It’s out of place because people don’t attack each other here. They are admittedly attacking Markos in this thread (some of them anyway). But if Markos actually showed up it would immediately stop and be replaced by a conversation about their concerns.
Look, the NDN thing is a sore point for a lot of people. I banned a user a few weeks ago for saying that I was on the take from the NDN and I was looking to sell out progressives. Well, Markos is partnered up with Rosenberg and some people don’t like it and don’t trust that relationship.
I talked to a NDN rep two weeks ago, and I talked about the perception problem and about people’s fears that we were about to get sold out again. I talked about how their money had to string-free and everything had to be disclosed or I would turn on them, and so would many others.
It is a real issue Addison. People are nervous. It’s not just about Kos. It’s about the NDN and their true intentions. And for what it is worth, I think the NDN (and Markos) is trying to do the right thing but I am also taking a cautious wait and see approach to the NDN.
Plus, my dKos thread was hijacked by people that thought is was primarily an attack on Kos, when it was primarily a defense against Parker’s attack in this diary.
Maybe someone can write a thoughtful, well-researched, balanced analysis/post/diary about NDN.
What are their real goals? (not what their webpage or flyer or promotional literature says)
Where does their funding come from?
Who are the major players/decision makers?
http://www.ndnpac.org/
Nice picture of Markos and Joe Trippi there.
Simon’s wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simon_Rosenberg
It sounds like Simon is a DLC guy.
How can kos criticize the DLC yet work with a DLC offshoot or orphan?
Simon is a DLC guy. Parker’s pretty clearly and convincingly documented it in his earlier diaries and comments. kos’s “brilliant strategy” is the same suicidal wrist-slashing the DLC has been engaged in for decades.
you don’t recognize that need to have a demonic adversary in kos’ current jihad against “silos”, people that CARE TOO MUCH about something?
you don’t think that’s about demonization?
and are you suprised that those singled out that way… don’t remain silent? I’ve seen complaints that it was posted at dkos, I’ve seen complaints it’s posted here.
I’ve SEEN kos say “hey, go fill up other lefy blogs, they need it”… then whine when those other sites are full of resentment for him.
this is the least mature perspective on human nature I could imagine, not yours, but the whole mix, starting with kos’ idea. And that’s JUST as regards human nature… as a political issue, it’s fucking suicide… politically, it’s as obtuse as you get.
I mean, it’s stay-the-fuck-out-of-politics stupid.
Hey, just realized you may’ve thought I was talking about you in the above comment. Was not in any of the parts, was referencing only the diarist and the posters in this thread. The “puffing themselves up on a whole other blog” was in reference to Parker who’s puffing herself up about Daily Kos on a whole other blog (BT). Absolutely not referencing you at Daily Kos or referencing you ANYWHERE for that matter.
You know gang, there is a reason there is chocolate and vanilla flavored ice cream. We all have different tastes, different points of view. Part of the problem with the blogosphere, not just any one particular blog is that the written word is often misinterpreted.
I started out at Dkos before the election and was so happy to find folks that seemed to have the same issues, the same mind set, the same principles that I had. That was so a relief. But after the election and before the pie wars I came over here because I was tired of the venom, grammar and diary police and the ratings system used as a means to disagree with a poster instead of trying to engage in debate. I have found that if I disagree with any of the elite I get troll rated. Even after I had apologized in one thread for being so over the top in several comments it was still piled on with very disturbing and hurtful remarks. I found that to be immature and disheartening because we all really want the same thing but each of us has to decide at what cost.
Addison, you made your points on the dkos thread. Why did you feel the need to come over here to fan the flames even more? To what purpose. Why don’t you all let Kos, the big great hope of the democratic party fight his own battles. Not once has he come here to defend himself. Not once did he comment in Booman’s thread over there. He evidently is too busy writing his book to really care about what is said about him. I mean Jesus, he even wrote a diary that he “does not want to be the leader, I am just a guy with a blog”. It isn’t Kos that makes the community it’s the community itself. It is not the Mayor that makes his/her city great it is the people, the culture, the vibe of that city.
Take a deep breath and take a look at this for what it really is. KOS is not the all powerful wizard you seem to think he is. He is just some guy with a blog, his words, not mine.
Booman himself thinks you shouldn’t criticize unless you’re willing to do it to the person’s face and argue it on their own turf. That you shouldn’t badmouth an idea/ideology without giving its proponents the chance to defend themselves. So I did just that in a thread whose subject was perfectly appropriate and in a way which was a mirror image of the “vibe” on display in the thread already. I don’t get your complaint unless you really believe in your segregated ice cream theory of the blogosphere, in which case I don’t understand your participation in this thread, as concerned as it is with how unchocolaty the vanilla is.
As far as your statement that “KOS is not the all powerful wizard you seem to think he is,” that’s the delusion some others (the diarist, half the posters in this thread, etc.) are laboring under, not me. It’s interesting it’s being projected onto me, I suppose, though I’m not sure why considering Markos just happens to be a target of what I was actually talking about, which was inconsequential umbrage addicts. Maybe that last paragraph wasn’t meant for me, but if it was I hope you recognize the irony of using it in the response to my comment and not certain others on this thread.
I refuse to think the issue is where you post this stuff. Plenty complained to booman he shouldn’t have posted it at dkos, and kept it here in his own playground.
It’s not about that. Where we see these complaints is not the issue, and the idea they should be kept where we don’t go, whomever “we” is at the moment, is also wrong.
It’s as if you, and kos’ defenders believe that this is not a REAL complaint.
It’s about something else, it’s not that anyone really cares about kos’ deepening divisions between the DLC “centrist” types and the “idealists” or hippies or whatever.
To me it’s about kos deepening those divisions and, what the fuck… he’s on THAT side, he’s on the DLC side of that line. Is he the DLC. NOT YET. But I don’t see him leaping across this chasm.
Though I have a hidden bridge or two I’d show him in a pinch…
but he will complete his plan and find it’s results, I’m sure, before wondering where my hidden bridges lay.
What I have encountered over and over again is that if one disagrees over there there it is the usual “fan club” of commenters that feel the need to flame one for their difference of opinion. It isn’t as if the issue is debated, the dissendent is either trolled away into oblivion or called names.
IMHO those that attacked Booman over at Dkos yesterday because he had the decencey to not write behind kos’ back here but expose the issue over there was way out of line. Booman was accused of trying to bait folks into coming over here for his own benefit. Booman has been a highly respected poster for a very long time. If Booman was the type of person to do something such as baiting for profit, “jealous” as some said he never would have posted the diary over there.
What ever happened to a civilised conversation? If you disagre wouldn’t it beneficial to the community as a whole to say Gee, so and so, I can see your point but I disagree with your theory. AND THIS IS WHY!!!!….to each his own Addison.
As far as flavors of ice cream,,,you just did not seem to get the point. There are many blogs to choose from and hopefully we will all find “the flavor” that we love. Take what you need and leave the rest behind.
Thank you Jesus I didn’t read anything over there of late. Booman baiting others to come over here? I’m holding a cold cloth to my head right now! What an evil spew that would have been from me! Something right out of the Exorcist.
Ah, the “split pea soup factor”, as we call it around here…as in, “If you don’t stop that right now, my head is going to spin around and split pea soup will fly out of my mouth…” 🙂
I read most of the stuff over there…
Here this particular thread has “debate and discussion” – over there… it’s bashing and major case of Prickosaurus. Armando is seriously lacking in some basic social skills.
Which out of all the “issues” and such – is the big turn off – the way debates are handled over there.
But it’s not the “leaders or front pagers” that make DailyKos… it’s the friendships and the great diarists that do. It’s the people who make a community.
Armando is seriously lacking in some basic social skills.
Armando isn’t the only one. The nice thing about Armando is that he’s not a sociopath.
FIRST they came for Donna Brazille, but I didn’t mind because I was not kidoakland.
Oh wait, I did mind!
I left after the whole reality-based purge of conspiracy theorists…
Besides, it was getting to the point where posters were glad handing and high fiving each other over “victories” as far ranging as kossacks significantly improving “Countdown with Keith Olbermann” ratings to that kid not being suspended as long at that GA school (after taking a cell call from his mother in iraq at school)…
I doubt it’s not far off that they’ll be claiming a big kos victory for the sun rising in the morning… (okay maybe not that bad)
.
I’m not good in this sort of diary – dealing with divisiveness in the blog community.
Early November 2004 when I joined dKos, I was UID 32,000 and change.
Recently I got banned for the 2nd time, I see there are now double that number of users.
Quantity does not necessarily build a better community, I like it here at BooMan. Martin and the BooTribbers are in a process of getting people together.
In the blog community it’s not about power in a style of political machine, Jimmy Hoffa, Mayor Daley or a Godfather. Let’s just keep it simple, it’s about ideas and arguments. People are willing to give their support because of ideas, what follows is getting influence.
I just jotted down some of your remarks ::
A perfect example of reasoning in a circle – what comes first, the chicken or the egg.
kossacks – community – activism – money – unity – goals –
Kos is human, makes mistakes just like us.
Powerful people do not exist, or else you’ll see corruption.
You need to silence dissent? – BooMan with his own Patriots Act?
Nothing matters … to gain power.
I don’t believe we have the knowledge or competence to establish: what is dissent. On a blog you exchange views, discuss and debate issues. I prefer an atmosphere with an open minded approach, alternative thinking that permits creativity to be used to find new solutions.
By excluding dissent on your blog, you will pretty soon find out, you are just talking to yourself in a mirror. It will be very lonely, because the activists have left. I believe success in politics is accomplished by uniting people, standing up for minorities.
I certainly don’t see Kos as a leader, a leader by definition has followers. I do appreciate Kos in his own right as a trailblazer, making use of the Internet to bring a community together, makes use of it as a tool to reach people and produce political cash for candidates.
▼ ▼ ▼
Been trying to respond and keep getting bounced by my ISP or something…
Anyways, I can not believe you have been banned at all.
My dear friend, reading your work has done nothing but enrich my days and open my mind and heart.
I even share your stuff with some hockey pals 🙂 One of which is Dutch but living here with a Canadian SO. 🙂
But.. gadzooks – YOU banned? Unbelievable.
.
Speaking of field hockey – did you miss this comment of mine?
CHEERS to HAPPINESS Alyson & Carole
.
World’s Best Female Hockey Player Alyson Annan
<click on pic for article>
The woman described by those who should know as the best female hockey player in the world, Alyson Annan, has unashamedly revealed that she has fallen in love with Carole Thate, captain of the Dutch hockey team at the Sydney Olympics. The two are living together in Amsterdam.
The star Hockeyroo had been married to Argentinian national player Max Caldas …
▼ ▼ ▼
Must’ve missed it.
I don’t follow field hockey too much… but I’m happy for the couple – Hooray!!
My friend’s son was just in Amsterdam yesterday 🙂 My high school best friend was from The Hague. Man, I learned a ton from her 🙂 You can be run over by a bike very easily 🙂 And Elderberry Wine.
Me either, Oui, I simply can not believe you were banned over there! All you do is bring to the table the most informitive things out there to us all. It is so sad on how much they are missing from you…
So well said! See, I’m a party girl. Remember that personality test and I tested out to be “Bill Clinton”? Can’t help it, that’s how I am and where’s the party? Even an unpopular party I will attend, like Crawford. I just love a party! Kos for me was a huge party all the time party all the time party all the time! I found myself not getting much quality though. It is a conscious effort for me to not attend some parties because I need to study up and be informed and practice the Art of Politics. How in the hell do you get banned from anything though? I just can’t fathom it. I have never known you to be divisive, just informative with good photos.
I’m late to the party again, I see. I suppose that’s why the punch is all gone. At least the parking was easier.
This “we must defend the almighty KOS, no matter how flawed he is, because he gives us a voice” reasoning — well, it perfectly explains why betrayed Republicans still stand behind Bush, doesn’t it?
Seriously. The spinning in his “defense” is so … Republican.
I feel sorry for the folks who negotiate “shared allegiance” with dKos. I already do that — I vote Democrat. I don’t need to do it with a glorified social club.
Its funny, for all the cries of betrayal over there (Doesn’t Armando keep a list of betrayers and enemies a mile long?), in order to be good “netroots” supporters, we’re supposed to blindly follow the ‘party’ line as dictated by a single man in California, because only he can see a way to unite the entire country… How does anyone keep a straight face when they think about this?
Where does Daily Kos get its power?
If you like the community of dKos, but don’t agree with the ownership, ask yourself — what does more good for your “cause” — what best supports your beliefs? Is giving Markos undo influence over your (alternate) party the price you have to pay to participate in net-politics? Is that really the only/best way you can participate? Is it Markos’ right to be a political player using your name/uid/donations to push his agenda, because he opened a site and lets certain fragments of the online community continue to squat on his blog (until he finds them detrimental, and gives them the boot)?
Bleh. More power to those folks, but I’m plenty happy blogging here at Booman Tribune. I get most of the same information, with most of the same “big name” posters, and a hell of a lot of exclusive fantastic bloggers, and best — a wonderful community atmosphere where community is the emphasis, not conformity.
I get all that, without compromising any of my principles, and with no undue stress, conflicts, and pointless bickering.
And here there are no self-righteous “leaders” “calling bullshit” when they can’t put together a simple convincing argument of their own.
dKos’s ‘historic’ role is drasticly overstated by its backers. Its the equivalent of Mosaic (the pre-Netscape web browser). It gave a taste of how things could be, but never achieved it itself.
I’m a slave to no man, Right or Left. I reserve the right to life, liberty, and to think for myself, thankyouverymuch.
a 4 for this explanation of the great mystery
But I don’t agree about giving or not giving Kos power. I can read DKos and keep my own power.
OTOH to spend so much time and energy thinking and writing about someone, is to give him power. So can we give it a rest? Let’s not worry about Kos — instead we can spend our energy building the BooTrib community and influence. Let Kos be Kos, let Armando be Armando, and let the frat-boys and girls wank off.
Fair enough. Tho I’d like to restate it.
a) I can watch FOX news and not give them power (#1 most watched cable news).
b) If you can read dKos and keep your own power, please understand that I (and others) can post the plain unvarnished truth about an uppity group of people claiming to represent us while betraying most of what we actually believe, and still keep our own power.
When bigshot Markos stops speaking as if he represented or wielded the power of the “netroots”, I’ll gladly forget about him and his ilk. Until then, he’s just another political hack appropriating me (I have a uid over there) to push his own agenda.
When Norm Coleman says he represents the citizens of Minnesota, I don’t go out of my way to correct him. But when someone tells me that within my earshot, damn straight I’m gonna speak up about it. That’s not giving power to Smilin’ Norm, that’s taking it away from him by stripping away his imaginary support.
(In other words, as long as the bluster is in his playground, you won’t hear a peep outta me. But this is my place — I read every single diary here. I read this one. I responded. Not a damn thing wrong with that.)
But damn straight we can put our energy into building this place up. That’s what the folks here before us did when we our migration wave arrived, and what we did in turn for the next…
I don’t see anything in this diary that’s preventing that — not in the slightest.
Yaright, agreed!
For myself, I find that anger feeds on itself. I’m thinking about picking my battles. At this point in my life I try not to engage with abusers. Perhaps we don’t agree on how much power that blog over there actually has. I think, not so much that we can’t be heard over here too.
Yeah, I see the danger in that, librarylil.
I that’s why I avoid Coleman. And after I give a piece of my mind to any Coleman supporters (hypothetically, I haven’t actually met a single one yet — the hyper-republicans haven’t forgiven him for being a Dem once upon a time), if they insist on defending him, I’ll walk away.
(Oh, and for the record I can’t believe I forgot to state in my last comment that I absolutely positively don’t watch FOX news — it was just an example. I deleted that channel from my cable box — talk about avoiding unwanted aggravation!)
BTW: Your quote is so appropriate. Do you have permission from the govt to post it? Or will it just “embolden our enemieses”?
LOL! I like your sig line too. Talk like that infuriates our enemieses.
It is purely business. When a faction of the Democratic party works to undermine my rights and ideals then I will fight back- whether I end up against the DLC or an influential blog. I can no longer “lie back and think of England.”
I was going to stay out of this, but oh well.
I heard Markos eats kittens and shits out living breathing Republicans.
Seriously.
He’s like the walking, talking version of the transmogrifier from Calvin & Hobbes.
He must be stopped.
I love Calvin and Hobbes…
and it has arrived. I figure one good photo of Kos eating the kittens and I’m set for life….big bucks. I shall now spend my days camera stalking the evil Kos!
Democracy seems like such a good idea until you get up close to it and actually experience people trying to carry on some kind of debate and falling right into the mudpit.
Pretty ugly, all in all.
By the way: anybody have any good ideas about the environment, energy policy, and climate change? How about poverty, domestic and foreign?
Etc. etc.