Mrs. BostonJoe came home today flabbergasted. She was driving home from shopping and happened upon a “Right To Life” protest that was attempting to block access to a women’s health clinic in our university town. Their presence, and propaganda, really got her dander up. She relayed the story of how she rolled down the window and tossed a few choice words in their direction. But, her preemptive F-bomb strike did not make her feel better, and she was shaking angry by the time she got home. Since I have become a public activist (in the past two weeks or so) we decided to make up some signs and go clash with the crusaders.
We had some decent signs. A picture of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and the blessing, “May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage.” And, my favorite – “The Flying Spaghetti Monster says: Theocracy Sucks.”
Unfortunately, we did not get back to the scene of the protest in time. The religious whack-jobs had packed up their fetus pictures and gone back to their homes and churches.
I don’t suppose Mrs. BostonJoe will have to be troubled by these protests much longer. With the addition of Roberts and whatever other fascist Bush nominates, and Senate Democrats rubber stamp, I don’t suppose there will be women’s health clinics for the fanatics to try to close in the next few years, as they will be illegal. But the whole thing got me thinking about the Religiosification of Public Speech in America. So I scribbled down these thoughts, and wrote this diary.
I personally remember the moment when I realized that America was becoming a theocratic society. It was during a debate between John McCain and George W. Bush in the 2000 primary season. (At least that is my memory of it – correct away ‘o wise political junkies). Batshit loopy was asked by a reporter, “Who is your favorite philosopher?” I am sure the reporter was following up on the general sense in the media that “W” lacked depth and was kind of stupid. It was a gotcha question, the reporter thinking (and most likely being right) that the dim feeb could not name a single Western philosopher, and that even if he did, he wouldn’t have the foggiest notion of what that philosopher said. Of course, those of you who saw this, remember the answer. Dumb shit got that stupid pensive look on his face, the one he gets when he is trying real hard to think, and then he said, “Well, I guess I would have to say Jesus Christ.”
My initial reaction was one of jubilation. I was so pleased that a reporter had the balls to ask the fuck wad a good question, and convinced that no one in the world could possibly respect a douche bag who named Jesus Christ as his favorite philosopher, that I thought it was the end of his stupid ass candidacy.
Of course, the fudie prez went immediately on to whop McCain’s ass. And the whole “injecting Jesus” into our public debate became fashionable. And I realized that the America I loved, where church and state were separate entities, was pretty much abolished by public ignorance.
I have since seen Canadian politicians being interviewed, completely perplexed at the political viability of a man who so publically embraces religion. Ah, those silly Canucks – to live in a country not founded by Puritans. What a hoot.
The signs were all there, well before Dumbya answered the question.
Football players were pointing to the sky. Baseball players crossed themselves. All in the public temples our stadiums had become.
Courts sentenced drunks and addicts to probationary conditions, requiring their attendance at sessions where they could confess their wrongs to a higher power.
Business advertising their faith, with little slogans and fish and crosses, and voice messages to “have a Blessed day” became all the rage.
It is rare for a month to pass without someone ringing my bell to tell me about Jesus, and their personal interpretation of how I can find him.
Fundamentalist U.S. military leaders hold “Prayer Meetings” and openly discuss the biblical interpretations of Armegeddon.
I can’t buy beer before noon on Sunday.
School boards had been hi-jacked by the radical right.
I remember a time, not long ago, before Batshit Loopy’s anointment of Philosopher Jesus, when to speak of God and Jesus in a public setting was cause for laughable scorn. I used to work in a small town. A freaking right-wing town. And there was this fundie lawyer. A recovering drunk. Probably got his religion from an AA meeting for all I know. He would come to court frequently, and loosely talk of God and morality in the courthouse, both off and on the record. And he was widely scorned for it. Not so much to his face, but continually behind his back. The general consensus I remember, from that time, was that God and morality were your private matters, for your own time, and if you insisted on trying to flaunt them in public, you were going to be shunned and scorned.
I was a lot more comfortable then.
Now, not only are the fundie nut-jobs constantly railing about Jesus in their fucking election and policy speeches, even the supposed left-leaning party is consumed with trying to bring their articles of faith into the public domain. I remember John Kerry wasting days trying to define himself as a moral Catholic. I don’t remember any candidate wasting any days talking about serious energy reform, or serious proposals to battle global warming. And, I sure as hell see enough diaries on here calling the “dearly beloved” to direct their spiritual energies.
Now, we are engaged in public battles about whether we should teach science or religion to our children in public schools. And whether they should be made to say a pledge of allegiance to their country and our supposed one God. And just looking at the field of debate, I have to despair about the level of intelligence in this fucking nation. How can we address serious problems, when a good majority of our people think that their children should be taught that a deity has specially created our species (and we are therefore blessed creatures). You can’t solve problems dealing with people like this. You can’t even rationally debate people like this. And people like this are everywhere. We the people, are people like this.
I say (and I suspect that most of the other agnostics, atheists and non-monotheists out there would agree) that religion, at best, is a waste of your precious time here on the planet, and, at worst, is a force that is driving massive destruction in the world.
And I am having a fuck of a time distinguishing President “Let’s Have A National Day of Prayer” Bush from Osama “Let’s Blow Some Fuckers Up” bin Laden. They are both warring parties for their Gods. And neither of their Gods fucking exist. So they are people blowing people up for fantasy in my book.
To me, it is time to return our government to the province of reality-based principles. No more faith-based bullshit. I think public speech that deals with faith deserves scorn from those of us who either are god-less, or have faith, and know that it should be observed respectfully and in private.
Just my two cents.
I’d pay a dollar for your two cents any day!
This is what got my dander up yesterday and promted me to write “I don’t do prayer” — I am completely and totally sick of this shit.
I want to live in a country where your faith adn your god or lack thereof are yours and where you don’t have to deprogram your children when they come home from school because people are asking the to pledge alligience without ever explaining to them what that means wand why they might want to and that really it is THEIR choice what to pledge their alligience to in the first place.
I want to live in a country where people are awake enough to see hypocrites for what they are and not allow themselves to be herded this way and that by the lastest bullshit from on high.
I want to live in a place I can feel good about, where I don’t fear speaking my mind and heart.
Damn, right now I would settle for being able to write coherently about what is going on in my own mind.
Sorry to ramble aimlesslly in your diary.
I saw it yesterday. But, honestly, I didn’t want to comment for fear of angering the religous elite.
See, I don’t even think the most open place to talk about things (The Booman Tribune) is safe from this scourge of public morality.
I know that is awful to say. Most here are way cool. Respectful, and everything.
But, the way I’m feeling about this, is like striking out — or striking back. To reclaim my secular space. So I think I may be too testy to talk about it.
But, then the whole “Right To Life” protest got it out of me.
Those idiot protestors… they already have a right to life.
What we want is the Right to MY Life.
Unfortunately, what this faux-religious goons want is a “Right to YOUR Life” too.
Can’t they just concentrate on fucking up their own, and leave the rest of us the hell alone?
They can’t leave us alone. Unfortunately, that’s the problem isn’t it?
They can’t leave us alone because it is their duty / challenge / etc., to make sure we all live the ‘right’ way – which is their way.
How do you have a debate with someone whose feels that it is part of their calling to make sure that everyone lives to their set of religious principles.
One conversation I had with a super-fundie, on the idea of having a set code of behaviour that dictated goodness and an eventual trip to heaven, boiled down to he had faith and I didn’t. The debate ended. I couldn’t debate his faith, and he couldn’t debate my lack of it.
To that asinine line of reasoning, I always say: of course I have faith, it’s not YOUR faith, but without mine, I could never leave my house.
At that point, they either get it, or not. I have to be in certain kind of mood to debate fundies anyway, and usually, I end up making their heads explode one way or another…
Er, did you ask them when they became “liberal elitists”?
If that doesn’t make their tiny brains pop, follow up by asking why they need the govt to enforce their religious beliefs? As long as the govt lets them practice their religion, where’s the problem? Is their faith so weak they are afraid they can’t convert folks to the ‘true faith’ without having the US Govt backing them up?
I thought it was the “liberals” who wanted the govt to baby us all and live our lives and take away all our control… I thought religious conservatives were all against that. So why is it now that they’re in power, that’s all they can think of doing?
Aren’t these the same kind of folks who claim the hurricane victims shouldn’t have counted on the govt, because we all “need to take personal responsibility”? If we should be expected to protect ourselves from hurricanes and floods, you’d think choosing the right religion might just be something we could do without government intervention, too.
Hypocrisy — some folks reek of it.
Yeah, I know what you mean, I thought about that too and it was why I felt it necessary to put the disclaimer right up front.
The thing I don’t understand about some religious people (no one who posted on that thread really fits this, but I have seen it time and time again) is that they feel justified in getting indignant and feeling persecuted when my heathen ass finally speaks up and says ENOUGH ALREADY! but for some reason, they cannot put themselves in my shoes and see how it must feel from my point of view to have all of this EXCLUSIONARY religious BS all over the place all of the time everywhere in the public space, in government.
I’m glad you posted this!
Right. You should go check out what a lefty religious person said in this diary on d-kos. Picks right up on the intorlerance of the non-religious. Or at least some non-religious (I am not sure she was talking about me). Maybe she thinks I am tolerant. But many, many Christians in this country, irrespective of political affiliation, are completely blind to the fact that they are the vast majority, and they if anyone are the oppressing religious group. They are always quick to circle the wagons and look at us godless folk and cry wolf.
Do you have a link directly to the diary? Don’t want to get sucked into any stupidity while I’m over there!
😉
I just went back and read it. It is probably nothing anyway. Definitely not worth your time. I wouldn’t want you to get sucked in either. 🙂
Ok, will do! I went looking, and of course it had scrolled away, so when of course I went to see if anyone needed a response from me…and well, I shouldn’t of wasted the time but did anyway. Bleach — don’t those people have anything better to do?? I guess not. I know I do, that’s why I wish I would stop wasting the time…it is much less lately, much much less — maybe I need to ask Parker to help me write a diary that’sll get me banned!
😉
It really is OK to just.not.go.there.
I have enough problems with my blood pressure, so I just went cold turkey. Snuck back for a nip once or twice and found the mood so unpleasant/intolerant I was quite shocked. No more Kool-Aid of any flavor for me, thanks.
I am one of those who come by their religious beliefs entirely without the aid or encouragement of religionists or their flawed institutions.
It is a violation of those beliefs — albeit a violation of no consequence — to speak about them.
It is also a violation of my religious beliefs to cause me to listen to the beliefs of others. That violation does bear consequences. It bothers me.
It is perhaps a capitulation to the inevitable temptations of institutionalization that I now feel compelled to insist on public accommodation of my religious beliefs.
I have one demand.
At every public gathering, and daily in every classroom, there must be one minute of absolute silence, in which each person present, according to his or her own preferences, must fantasize about collective sex involving at least as many participants as are present at the silent gathering.
My campaign to institute this policy has been successful beyond my dreams.
I remember feeling that same jubilation when Reagan said “Wouldn’t it be nice if we had a shield in the sky?” I thought ‘Oh boy, now they’ll see that he’s drifting too far from shore.’ But I was young and naive – had no concept of turning the musings of a doddering old man into a weapons system.
I’m afraid that just as with our racism, America has got a lot of religious psychoses to work through, and this is just the beginning.
… are a bargain then B-Joe, for this is a great diary.
One Helluva good rant!
Joe, I so agree with you–I’m in the “religious, but faith ought to be private” camp. I avoid businesses that display the little Jesus fish, because I don’t want to give my business to someone who thinks their religion should matter to me. “God Bless America” absolutely galls me for two reasons–one is obvious: it violates church-state separation. The other is that I think it’s bad theology–I mean, who the hell do we think we are that God’s going to treat us any better or worse than any other country? And don’t get me started about the folks who think God cares about the outcome of the Super Bowl.
But enough ranting. I’m ready to start acting on this. I’m trying to figure out where to direct my scorn, and how to express it, and am wondering what others think would be most productive. I thought I might start small–keeping a close eye on what my Senators are saying, and giving them a polite but firm “I don’t think that’s appropriate, and here’s why” when they transgress. But I don’t know–what do others of you do when you speak up about this issue?
It’s amazing how much our democratic senators have incorporated god/jesus/religion into their speeches especially in these last bush years. Politicians-on both sides- have always done this but it seems that it has gotten way out of hand.
I was watching Pelosi on C-span about a week ago and she was giving a speech in the house..something about Katerina and I was going along with her saying …alright, good point etc and then she ends her speech by not only mentioning the bible but quoting some passage from it regarding helping others or some such crap…I mean come on..we can help others without invoking the bible can’t we?
so getting to your point about keeping an idea on our politicians, good idea..as I almost yet didn’t send her an email about her good speech but also wanted to mention the bible thumping at the end…wish I had now.
You know sngmama this is a good idea of yours, you ought to do a diary on it…keep track of the democratic politicians who drag the bible or religion into their speeches or statements and let us know and give us senate email address. I’m tired of this kind of nah nah nah nah nah nah type speeches/statements by democrats who are trying to out religion the republicans. (and I wouldn’t waste my time on emailing the repugs-that’s a lost cause to me). It’s the democratic party that needs to be reminded that it’s not about religion but civil and human rights and you don’t need a bible for that.
The great lie of the religious right is that they are being persecuted..and it is really a goddamn whopper and most people buy into it hook, line and sinker without giving it any thought as to how fucken untrue it is.
Any fucken freak can proclaim she/he has been saved and people just nod and say how cool but heaven forbid if you even dare to mention you might be an atheist…people look at you like you’re a spawn of Satan, that you’ll grow horns any minute and they are going to be contaminated just by standing next to you. That goes for mentioning secular and humanist also..which people again somehow equate with evil or no moral code..whatever their tiny faith based minds have been programed to think about all those ‘kinds’ of people.
Funny you mentioned pledge..my nephew came by yesterday to chill out for a few hours and unfortunately set me off…although he’s used to it. I live in one of the reddest redneck areas in Ca. and my nephew grew up with all these idiots..he’s 25 now but I’m digressing. I was talking about national prayer day and he started telling me how people were trying to get rid of the pledge in schools..information via his redneck friends. Which of course launched me off into a tirade about that being absolutely fucken untrue and trying to explain the distinction between the two words ‘under god’ being taken out as opposed to the whole pledge and that ‘under god’ hadn’t been in the pledge to start with…which he then stated that it was a fact that all scientists are atheists..I’m not saying he necessarily believes all this but this is crap that almost all young people around here believe.
oh yeah, you were talking about public speech huh..well I agree with everything you wrote and the more any politician goes around spouting religioius or jesus crap to my mind means they are trying to either score points or deflect from some wrongdoing on their part. And by jesus crap I didn’t mean anything derogatory about jesus himself as a philosopher but all the politicians who invoke jesus as a political ploy.(didn’t bush as governor proclaim a Jesus day in Texas?) I see all these politicians kinda like Dirty Harry and pointing a gun at you and saying ‘well do ya believe in Jesus, well do ya punk’ and if the answer is no they blow you away.
Just found this littletidbit on Bush, natural disasters and religion. Enjoy.
“I’m also mindful that man should never try to put words in God’s mouth. I mean, we should never ascribe natural disasters or anything else to God. We are in no way, shape, or form should a human being, play God.” –George W. Bush, ABC’s 20/20, Washington D.C., Jan. 14, 2005
I had to laugh. Ahahahahaha.
I must admit that, as a Canadian, the publicity of religion in America is utterly perplexing and more than a little disconcerting to me. Here, the only people who really talk about religion in public like that are the occasional fundamentalist lunatic and those crazy Albertans (no offence to any non-crazy Albertans in the audience). To the rest of us, it’s kind of like one’s sex life or health – something you talk about with close friends in private, maybe, but not the sort of thing you usually stand up on TV and talk about at length, or the kind of thing that is considered to have serious weight in the making of public policy.
I can feel the difference in our cultures when I cross the border. On issues like race, religion, and just plain decency, there is a palpable difference being in your country, than being here.
I get the same feeling when I cross the Ohio river going north. Even though I’m only entering Cincinnati, which is almost like a Southern colony in the north.
(Except for its surprisingly large pagan counterculture going on under the surface – it’s as if the conservative German Catholicism there drives a fraction of the population to paganism – like it did for my wife, for instance!)
Then I really get the breathe-free vibes when I cross into Canada, the few times that I have…
cincy pagans are the best.
we were married by one of them. no shit. she’s one of our bestest friends.
I believe it is called common courtesy–yes?
Help me!!
I thought you were in Manitoba.
Am I that confused?
Or are you just from Alberta?
Yes, you are that confused! 🙂
I’m in Alberta. I’ve been here 20 years. My homeland is Saskatchewan but I did live in Thompson, Manitoba once back in 1976-1977.
Then please disregard my comment on another thread about the Manitoba Moose, LOL. 🙁
Maybe my subconscious hoped you were in Manitoba so that if I ever did end up on your basement sofa, it wouldn’t be in Alberta. Not that I have any room to talk in the home state of Dr. Frist.
Alberta’s beautiful. Lots of lefties were elected last time. There is hope! And, it’s damn cold in Manitoba in the winter.
Elected provincially or federally? As if even Alberta’s provincial government is turning around, that’s a major blow to the national conservative movement in this country.
finally!
That is good to hear!
I guess Alberta’s not so cold because it’s less windy than Manitoba? You’re at a higher elevation so I had thought you’d be just as cold or colder.
Are you in Calgary, Edmonton, or somewhere else? Where are lefties starting to win in Alberta?
I’m not too too worried about the cold – with global warming, Winnipeg will soon have the climate of Kansas City, and I lived there for 13 years, LOL!
Oooh. That is a good sign.
I have a dear friend in alberta- he is the bestest
I certainly agree with your overall point, however this part bothered me:
It’s not the religions – it’s the institutions and the mouthpieces. Buddhism isn’t a waste of my time. To the contrary, falling into it during a very dark period in my life saved my butt. There’s a huge difference between religion and spirituality. Spirtuality is the true practice of religious precepts. That’s what’s missing from those who claim to have religion and cause destruction. They don’t live it.
Ditto. I’ve toyed with atheism and decided I don’t like it. While it may be irrational and silly, I’m still religious and spiritual. I just make sure to remember that it may well just be a security blanket, and to only apply it to attempt to understand the world as a tool of last resort.
What really makes me go “WTF?” is people whose first reaction to any situation or event is to attempt to explain how/why God made it happen. “God wants this” or “God wants that”. And usually what God “wants” just happens to conveniently paint their actions or thoughts in the best possible light. As if we could understand the motivations of an omnipotent being…
As with almost anything else, it’s a matter of what you do with it.
I see your point. If a thing practiced has some value in your life, who am I to say it is wasted time.
I guess, if I wasn’t such a raving lunatic, and I were able to amend my remarks, I’d say that people who spend hours of their lives trying to prove to themselves and the world the truths of their religious texts, may be wasting their times. Of course, some of them probably draw value from that. Maybe, it would be a better point to say, those who spend hours of their lives trying to prove to themselves and the world the truths of their religious texts, and, then try to force their religious texts down my throat, are wasting their time, and infringing on my good will.
I dunno. Maybe I am just one angry agnostic.
Just got done watching the first part of Empire Falls though. That was cool. Not a waste of time either. And, listened to a part of Blue Note CD earlier. Definitely not a waste of time. Very cool.
…in this country.
Think William Jennings Bryan’s “Cross of Gold” Speech.
Think Henry Wallace’s “Century of the Common Man” Speech.
Think just about any speech by Martin Luther King.
The problem is not religion taking a part of our public discourse (or rather, if it is, we’re screwed, because it has always taken a large role in that discourse). It is the particular quality of early 21st-century wingnut Christian fundamentalism that is really at fault.
I feel a bit uncomfortable taking on the issue of how damaging these anti-religion diaries are, because I’m not personally all that religious myself.
But I think there is a very serious reality disconnect going on here, because the religious aspect of American (really, western) civilization is neither new nore more powerful now than it has been in the past.
Recall that the “under God” verbiage was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. Kennedy’s Catholicism was an issue in 1960. Carter was a born again Christian. LBJ quoted from the Bible. There are plenty of examples of religion in political speech, because that’s the way things have been since at least the beginning of the country, and obviously way back into history as well.
It is simply not the case that political speech has become more religious in tone than in the past. I don’t know how to turn this into something that can be measured…
And the problem is that by denying the underlying religous attitudes in the country, one cannot hope to be elected. That realization is why Kerry and Dean started making campaign trips to churches, and the liberal blogosphere needs to come to the same realization.
I can only go based on my experience. I was born in 1966. And, in my opinion, their is a whole lot more willingness of Christians to take their religion public.
I just have to disagree with you. That’s not to deny the history of religion. Obviously, Christianity has been around a couple of thousand years. And, was a big force for some settlers in the U.S. But this pious spouting horseshit, about God Bless America at the end of every speech, and statements about faith being so important, spewed by every leader, about many issues — that is just new marketing crap.
And, I think it was downplayed before. You might have seen religion talked about (i.e., Kennedy’s Catholicism), but that was because it was a devisive issue. And I think that is precisely why it was (and should have been) downplayed. Faith between religious sects, and even within sects, is such an individualized personal thing. And, I think in public, we used to acknowledge that. We all thought what we thought, and kept it largely to ourselves and our families. And we were hesitant to call at every turn for a moment of silence, and to say after every catastrophe of tax speech, “God Bless Us All” because we knew it could be very devisive.
But, batshit loopy has taken devisive to a new level. He has certainly done it with the whole Christian thing, in my view. Pretty blatantly, and pretty obviously. And, it leads to people who are not religious, like myself, to be basically pissed off all the time. I can’t look at the ass wipe without wanting to vomit. And a lot of that is because, I know, it is likely, when he finishes his butchered lines, he is going to try to fucking bless me.
Well when I was in elementary school in Massachusetts in the 1950s, we had to say the Lord’s Prayer every day. It was pretty embarrasing for the Protestants and Jews, because the Catholics have their own special version.
Don’t the police in your town help the old ladies across the street after church? Doesn’t your town’s school bus system take the kids to parochial school? Doesn’t your town meeting or city council meeting start off with a prayer? Don’t your Governor and House Speaker pray in public?
http://www.mafamily.org/Press%20Room%20Folder/Press%20Releases/PRLeg%20Prayer%20Breakfast.htm
Yup- me too and I refused to have anything to do with any of it-I was NOT gonna sing hymns in school- I was not gonna pray and I was not gonna pledge allegiance to a flag.(I spent alot of time in the principal’s office)
the answers to all of those questions are yes, THAT is the problem?? At least that is the problem for me, I can’t speak for Joe…
(BTW, Joe, I was born in ’66 too…in March — who is older?)
Don’t the police in your town help the old ladies across the street after church? No. Not that I’ve ever seen.
Doesn’t your town’s school bus system take the kids to parochial school? No. They have to use the city busses or get rides.
Doesn’t your town meeting or city council meeting start off with a prayer? No, not my township meeting. I don’t go much, or watch often. But not to my knowledge.
Don’t your Governor and House Speaker pray in public? I’ve not seen my Governor pray in public. I have seen her invoke God, just like Bush. And I very much dislike it. Our speaker. I never see him.
Perhaps you and I have had a very different experience in life. I was born in the ’60s, raised in the ’70s and ’80s. My formative years were spent in the aftermath of the ’60s counter-culture. Then the distrust of Government in the ’70s with Nixon. It wasn’t until 1980 and Reagan where I started to even get an inkling of the religious right. And, for me, Bush has taken it to a whole new place. One commentator on this diary suggested that it is a cynical ploy to exploit voters. I don’t doubt that.
From your prospective, going to school in the ’50s, in a Catholic school(?), perhaps you have seen the world become less and less religious. Certainly, looking way back to colonies, I would have to agree that as a society we have become less dedicated to religion.
Perhaps in reality what has happened is a shift to a more secular world after the ’50s, and a drift back to a more religious world starting in the ’80s. Looking at it in those terms, it might explain both our perceptions.
What I would say about that is that the period of secularization from the ’50s to the ’80s was the way I think an advanced nation should be trending. I think it is the way other developed Western nations have trended (given the comments from Canadians and Britons in this diary). And I am extremely uncomfortable about it drifting back to the days where religion is a public spectacle. I would like it to stop, well before we get ourselves back to the days of Salem.
Even looking way back to the colonies isn’t particularly favourable in that respect. I seem to remember that, in Jefferson’s time, while most people considered themselves religious, few regularly attended services or did other religious things. In fact, not being religious was a kind of intellectual fad (see: revolutionary France), which I suspect the Religious Right is still overreacting to.
From Frederick Clarkson’s excellent diaries, I seem to remember that “bad religion” only really took off in the mid-1800s.
Well BostonJoe, I was assuming from your signature that you lived in the Boston area. In Massachusetts all the things I listed are routine. Prayer in public school in the 1950s–although not any more. Today, though, town police are routinely detailed to help at church crosswalks, parochial school kids ride buses paid for by the towns, and public officials pray in public.
If you live in Mass and haven’t seen this, I don’t know what to say. The point I was trying to make, though, is that today’s religion-in-public situation is not much different–in either direction, less or more–than it has always been…
BostonJoe’s just a name.
Yeah, I saw that later. The point of my example is that in Massachusetts, one of the two or three most reliably Democratic states, there is considerable reliosity in public speech. Obviously there is also in Republican states like Kansas and Texas. I don’t think it can be avoided in American politics…
I think that if Democrats don’t knock it off, they are going to alienate a whole bunch of secular people, who are just going to stop voting for them.
I know this is true of me, anyway.
just for this line alone:
“I know, it is likely, when he finishes his butchered lines, he is going to try to fucking bless me.”
Incidentally, the WaPo has a story to day about Praying and Baseball.
Shit I lived across the street from that Planned Parenthood on Brighton and Comm. Ave. (I’m guessing you’re talking about the one in the BU area with the Shaws next door on the Brookline/ Alston/ Boston Line)?
Those people were nuts, you think of them when you think of christians? No wonder you’re so pissed. I used to flick them of too and I’m a Lutheran.
I think it is getting better… (Shit I remember having to buy my sunday beer on saturday… ) And imagine if you brought your Spaghetti Monster to the same place during the Salem Witch trials? See you next tuesday at that point…
PS: Why are you guys driving in Boston anyway? Most of us could only dream of that kind of public transportation at our disposal… =) and I’m sure gas is $3.45+ a gallon regular in your area
I’m not really in Boston. That is just my “handle.” I took it from Boston Attorney Joe Welch, who stalled McCarthy with the quote below.
I’m in Michigan. East Lansing.
My mistake, it just sounded exactly like the weird shit that would happen across the street (including the: “University Town”… that’s all Boston is… Especially that part of Brookline, Noston University).
That and I have a buddy named Joe in Boston… So it could’ve been subliminal.
I wouldn’t marginalize religion by what you see from Bush and a couple crazies outside of a planned parenthood. I’ve got the same amount to bitch about of them as yall do.
Cheers
NICE THREAD PEOPLE—kiss kiss hug hug
I went to catholic school. We didn’t bludgeon people with our faith. I think that’s the difference now. Folks are running around bludgeoning others with their religious beliefs and when you don’t agree, they accuse you of persecution.
I don’t have a problem with religious themed diaries. I just don’t go to them.
From my earliest recollections of politics deity was mentioned, sure, but not used as
a) a measuring stick
b) a weapon
c) a threat
or
d) a rationalization.
Now politicians are being elected because of their religious beliefs, not in spite of them, or with religion as a mild aside.
Remember, bush v gore was only close because gore had a jewish running mate-there are still many, many people in this country who are unwilling to allow a jew to be a heartbeat from the white house. Sad, but true.
Disclaimer-I’m a pagan now, sometimes classifying myself as a “recovering catholic”. I have no issue with those who believe differently than I do. I don’t call them wrong, or beat them about the head and shoulders with my intriguing blend of druidry, agnosticism, gaianism, and buddhism. If they start to do that to me, that’s where I call them on it. Anyone, including my kids who are both “born again” christians. Anyone, including my mother, who is still catholic. Do not bludgeon me with your faith, lets see your actions, because if there IS an afterlife, that’s what you’ll be judged on.
Sounds like we go to the same “church”! I call mine “Celtic Zen.”
I want to say first of all that, as an agnostic, I agree with everything you said about the religiosification of public speech in america.
But I wanted to mention another reaction I had to your diary. When the reporter asked Bush about his favorite philosopher – his actual response was “Christ.” Now, as someone who was raised in a Texas fundamentalist family – that caught my attention. Anyone in the community I grew up in would have said “Jesus” or “Jesus Christ.” I could very well be wrong, but the fact that he used that language made me wonder if it was more coached than real. If I’m right, the whole idea of Bush’s attachment to the fundies is just pandering. None of this challenges your point – just shows how much pandering has been raised to a new level.
I’ve also noticed religious wording in legal documents. For example, in arbitration filings, claimants typically state what they want from the defendants under a section titled “Damages”. Some attorneys, however, request damages in a section they title “Prayer for Relief”. My cynicism kicks in every time I see that wording.
If one didn’t know better, they might think the claimants were presenting themselves as having God on their side.
Nah, the “prayer for relief” language is just an old legalism. The lawyer who filed the petition probably just used the same template that the law firm has been using for 80 years. Just like starting out a complaint with “Now comes the plaintiff” doesn’t have anything to do with the plaintiff’s sex life.
“Never mind” . . .(Gilda Radner)
I had to reply to this. Not because it is related to religion in modern-America, much. But, it is one thing I know a little about. And it is kind of interesting.
The use of religious language in legal pleadings, like “we pray for… [whatever relief],” stems from two distinct systems of jurisprudence in Old England. There was the legal system of the King. And also a equitable system through the church. So in matters of equity, the old language “prayers for relief” survives to this day. In some rare circumstances, distinction between “legal” and “equitable” remedies can still creat legal issues to this day. And frequently, the “equitable” language is used in modern documents, whether the issue presents questions of law or equity.
Ah. That was $150,000 dollars well spent, huh?
Yes, as a matter of fact, it was worth the $150,000 ;^). Thanks for taking the time to provide the interesting explanation – much appreciated.
Well. . . except. . .ya know. . .I just publicly humiliated myself. (Kinda makes me hope that no one reads your diary ;^)
And gee. . .you kind of took a little something away from me. That ignorant little something that allowed me to mock all those “Prayer’s for Relief” (while I shook my head in disbelief at all the deceit in which they came wrapped.)
Or Dudette.
No. Don’t say you made yourself a fool. Your comment wasn’t ignorant. I am sure my explanation leaves much to be desired. There are probably a ton of lawyers here who could point out where my history is flawed.
It is used wrong a lot. Even by attorneys. And, I suspect by some, to curry favor from right-wing judges. So your point isn’t completely off base.
Good morning Joe,
No need to talk me off the ledge, but thanks for your thoughtful reply. Aside from the genuine appreciation I expressed for sharing the history of “Prayers for Relief”, the remainder of my commentary was mostly founded in snark. (Heck, if my comments above represented the worst of my online humiliations, I’d be in great shape indeed ;^)
On a side note, I really admire the actions of you and Mrs. Joe, in attempting to respond to the protesters. (Whether you were too late or not) You’re setting a great example, and I truly respect that.
My neighbor owns a piece of land next to a very large church. He’s an older guy, 70+. So anyway, this used to be country around here so he never mows the lot. In July, he gets this notice from the city that the church complained about the grass and he must mow the lot or be fined, so we load up the tractors and mow the lot. A week later, he shows up at my door, about ready to have a stroke, one of the church groups placed 700 white crosses on his land with banners and signs and right to lifers marching down the road. He was apoplectic, so we had a beer and smoke to clam him down, loaded up the tractors and mowed the lot. I put my chipper/shredder/vac on the back of mine. Turned all those signs and crosses into little bitsy’s. A bunch of these super moral churchy folk were screaming the vilest filth, it was great, we were about a third of the way done, then the cops came. The cops made us stop, so we had a beer and smoke while they talked to the right to lifers. They came over to us rather pissed, asked my neighbor what he thought he was doing and all that shit, he just pulled out the letter from the city and said he was just trying to clean up his lot to avoid a fine. The cop looked at him and said,”Wait a second, you own this lot?”, “Yes, Sir.” He replied. “Well, goddamn it finish the job.”
She will enjoy that. I will pass it on. WTF were they thinking? Oh, never mind. They weren’t thinking.
Good sir, you deserve a 5 for that comment, and your neighbour deserves a pat on the back and all the help you and any other progressive can offer him.
Just the thought of using ride-on mowers as a counterprotest tool makes me giggle madly.
Great story – thanks for sharing!