I had no idea that this site was all about hating America, American’s and American troops. That’s fucking awesome yo. Really. I love hating. It’s so much more productive than actually DOING something.
For years and years I’ve tried to get those of both the left and the right (in Canada & the US) to stop generalizing and painting others with a broad brush so that we can actually talk and try to make the world a better place… who knew I was wasting my breath? I could have saved myself a whole ton of grief if I just followed the examples set forth by Ductape & Stu Piddy and blamed ALL American’s for the sins of the rulers… whether they are being lied to or not… even if they are trying to affect change, spit in their face and blame them anyway! It’s the only way supposedly. Who knew?
I’m so excited by this turn of events! I feel so liberated from my compassion! Good wolf, shmoud wolf, let’s hate ’em all! It’s the only way.
Let’s not think about the fact that militaries are necessary to defend citizen’s or else those who DON’T abide by our dreams for a conflict free planet can come on over and take control… hey, who would stop them, we’d have no military… meh, guess that’s not important, I’m sure Stu & Ductape will be there on the front lines for us. I suppose they would have preferred for Hitler to have taken over Europe since those fucking asshole murdering soldiers from Canada & the US should never even exist. Those fucking baby killers, how dare they feel strongly enough to risk their lives to fight fascism. Really, what nerve.
And yeah, they are so right, I absolutely want General’s in the field disobeying CIVILIAN orders and deciding what the foreign policy really is. Sounds like a plan.
And damn, I had no idea that those poor folks who died in NOLA were not innocent victims, but part of the problem of America! They are to blame for Bush, and the military and for the fact that the US is in bed with the Saudi’s. Oh wait, you don’t think they are?? Too bad. Ductape says ALL American’s are responsible and I’m pretty sure that includes them too. I mean, did they do anything to stop Bush? Didn’t think so. Man, it’s hard work being so dogmatic… but it’s for a worthy cause for sure… the destruction of America and the peace and prosperity that will follow in the world. Because PEOPLE aren’t evil, AMERICAN’s are.
Yeah, warlords in Darfur, secret police in SA, the KGB, meh, as soon as the US is gone they will all pick daisies and sing kumbaya dontcha know. Because it’s all the US’s fault.
Man, I just love hating and insults and generalizations and actually absolutely no solutions or ways forward other than more hate. So refreshing.
Actually, it’s not and I could get that at LGF, Freeperville or DU. Which is why, yes, this is my Goodbye Cruel World. I have enough hate in my life without having it fetted here… by the community and the host, even as others are telling us how painful those generalizations are for them they just keep coming.
I know when enough is enough. And this is it for me.
{Update} Based on the comments by people I respect & admire here I am willing to drop the dogmatic stance I am making if we can all have a discussion about what “don’t be a prick”, the moto of the site, really means to us & what it means to be liberal, compassionate and just. Because there are a lot of people on this site right now who are feeling hurt & beat up and uncertain as to where we are moving forward.
As rba points out in the comments, as communities grow the “signal to noise ratio” grows too. Are we all cool with that? Are we cool with lowering the state of discourse and dealing in ad hominem attacks? Attacks on members of our community who have served their country in the military? We aren’t cool with attacks on African American’s, Jews, Gays, Women, so why are we blanketly accepting attacks on those who are in uniform? Does it make someone less of a person because they love their country and want to serve and protect it (and those who live within its borders)? Does it make someone a murderer because they were poor, had few options and decided to enlist to get a college degree and hopefully a better life? Are they to blame for the policies of the (supposedly) ELECTED officials who call the shots? Where does the blame truly lie? And with whom?
To me that means not dealing in broad brush strokes and seeing the worst about America & not about humanity in general. It means not name calling. Engaging in debate instead of dogma. And I have a feeling it means that to the majority of this community too. So say so. Speak up. Use your voice to make this small microcosim of the world, this froggy bottom community, the best of what we want the world to be. And I promise to stick around and help do so. Because it means that much to me.
… I don’t want to do this and I waited for a few days to make this decision, but after yesterday’s diary I have had enough. I don’t need more venom in my life as I am trying to make the world a better place… realistically and in shades of grey vs. dogmatic black and white.
I wish you all the best and it’s been good knowing you.
Namaste
~ spider
How do you reject the toxic feelings that so many are so quick to unleash without closing yourself off to the beauty and love of this world? I might guess from casual observation that there seems to be a 90/10 rule in effect: 90% of people are ignorant and apathetic 90% of the time. 90% of people are more willing to stoke their own prejudices and pat themselves on the back than to face the tough questions and admit they don’t know. This seems as true for the American electorate as it does for the American Congress as it does for dKos as it does for BMT. As it is for myself.
Don’t you DARE leave!
When the negativity gets to me, I try to find other diaries and stories that are more akin to my sentiments…
We need you. You’re one of the brightest, most knowledgeable, most able writers here.
Your comments mean the world to me every time I read them.
(Just ignore whoever is getting to you…. there are plenty of others here who shaer your spirit!)
thanks Susan… I really appreciate it. I reacted emotionally at first and was trying to make a point, I’ve since opened it to debate and am happy to stay and be the change I seek with ya’ll.
the vein it is intended.
There is a very good book about spiritual development that contains the following passage which I have found incredibly true and incredibly useful in my life:
This doesn’t mean that other people don’t act like assholes sometimes. Lord knows they do. What it is telling us is that at that particular moment there is something within us that is allowing them to get to us.
I wrote below how I saw Stu Piddy’s diary, glanced at it, had a negative reaction to it, thought about commenting, but decided to let it go and move on to something positive. On another day with a similar diary I would dive right in and get all upset and go off with power driven argument and invective.
Why? What’s the difference? Me… and my spiritual well being on any given day. On one day I am at peace with the world and let things go with peace and ease and another day I am internally in an uproar and take it out on the world about me. It is all an inside job.
Peace,
Andrew
Thank you. I take it as truth and that is I assume the spirit it was intended in.
I absolutely agree. I also was making a point as to how painting all with a broad brush (as I did initially) is unfair, counterproductive and disrespectful. I recognized that was not my ultimate intent, or conducive to productive debate so I added the update.
But yes, there was something inside that made me engage vs. walk away and it may or may not have been the right one to listen to. 😉
It hurt me, too, and I did leave because of the hate being generated there. I went outside into a beautiful fall day, though, because I also read a diary by Scribe that reminded me that’s where I find my joy. I’ve also hotlisted one by Cali Scribe that brings me peace.
There’s some great wisdom on this site, and I’m grateful for that. Glad you’re here and speaking up.
What a waste. Wasted a damn good mega-troll rating. All for nuthin’. ;^)
I admit to being a slow reader, plus I had to take a few phone calls on my way down the thread. But heck. . . couldn’t you have given a buddy a chance to read through the thread and fly their flag of support before you took back your threat of departure?
Think about it. Had you waited awhile before posting your update, I would’ve had the time to shout out my support to you through an “Effing Right, Spide” post. And then . . . I could have taken credit for being one of the people you respect and admire who talked you into staying. (At least I could have pretended that in my head.)
But that wasn’t meant to be. The opportunity is gone. Pulled that rug right out from under me, you did. No glory for A. No 15 minutes. Not today. (. . .not. . .ever. . .)
Having said that. . .I’ll remove the rating. (At the time, it seemed like an appropriate homage ;^)
Regarding the topic itself. . . I was really saddened by what took place. It wasn’t a matter of free speech, or a controversial topic. It was a matter of disrespect and generalized hate mongering (wrapped up in oh-so-clever, cryptic, off-focus packaging). For that, I have no time. And for that, I left this site, considering whether to return.
Enjoy the rest of your day, my dear. And please don’t be quittin’ on me. I care about you too much. (Even if I can’t pretend it was ME who talked you into staying. . .)
Don’t you worry A, getting a zero from you I actually earned most certainly did have an affect on my decision… can’t be lettin’ that happen can I? Ruin my whole schtick… 😉
Thanks for your comment, it means a lot.
Aw, spider, come on….speaking of over-gernalizations……don’t you think you’ve gone over that same deep end here?
I read that entire thread and understand the viewpoints expressed on all sides. I’m an American and I see plenty of things to dislike about my country and the way we are forced to live in it, but I don’t hate and I don’t give up.
I’ll be really disappointed if you do….stay for me?
yup, I sure am… sucks don’t it.
Shoe on the other foot and all.
I’ll still lurk, but after the pain that I saw in ghostdancer, shadowthief, Recordkeeper et al and the fact that just two days before BooMan was telling the world how much Ductape means to the site, no matter the venomous comments and generalizations and NO solutions other than the destruction of America I can’t participate in good conscience. I may change my mind, but I needed to say what I needed to say.
Dogma of the left or the right is wrong.
spiderleaf, I do not know ye well, but as far as I am concern you are a valuable enity here as every one is. YOur opinions are as much of value as anyones is. I am asking you to reconsider your decision. I think many are just plain out right discusted as to the shape of many things here in America. I know I am, but I will not leave America. I do not hate her and the ppl in her. I try hard to not to hate, even tho, this administration is pulling it close to that line of demarkation for me. Please take a minute to understand why ppl say and do the things they do. I try hard to see both sides of the story before I make a judgement call on something or anyone. Please stay. I for one will miss you terribly. HUGS
Dont let the door hit you on the way out!
Goodbye asshole
too bad you didn’t get your wish… but nice to meet you bill. welcome to booman trib. hope to speak with you more civilly when you aren’t calling people assholes.
Well maybe you will reconsider again.
You are the one that started it
Take your own medicine.
nothing to reconsider. perhaps you could reconsider your troll ratings of me in this thread since you obviously aren’t interested in a discussion, but absolutely interested in flaming when we are discussing. perhaps reading and participating in the thread would be the more mature way to go… but meh, not my problem. nice way to introduce yourself tho’.
Anybody that defends the Bush Nazi war machine has lost any attempts at tolerance and understanding.
Anybody that participates is war criminal according to the Nuernburg principles.
Everything the miltary has said(including and , the) about Iraq and Afghanistan has been nothing but lies, and the whole world knows it.
the points of differentiation btwn the blogs bill… I am furious you would DARE to call me an apologist for the Bush regime & say I am a war criminal. But I’ll just tell you so vs. giving you a troll rating… which your comment is actually trollish, my comment to my friend Anamolous is not.
perhaps visiting the FBC or the “Tell us” diary would help you understand the community a bit more. Just a thought.
By your reasoning the entire German military should have been hanged after the war, so your Nuremberg analogy doesn’t work. Second, take some time and look around here and see if you can find anyone who is defending the Bush regime. Get back to me, K?
Bill, this is very interesting, we are having a discussion about respect and civility on the site, not to mention that the rule of the site is “don’t be a jerk”.
Perhaps you will go to the diary ‘Tell us why you came to this site’ and let us know your intentions here, is it to disrupt! There is simply no call for your statement to spider, this sir is not DK and we do not take kindly to those remarks. We had a civil discussion, some things were resolved, others are being discussed and you are like a tire iron thrown into a spoked wheel.
How can you worry about respect and civility when Bush has unleashed his Trailer Park Trash army of Lynddie Englands on the world. There are not a few bad apples, the whole orchard is a criminal enterprise
post that is going to bring about comprehensive and longlasting solution orientated analysis.
thank you for sharing.
Oh my what have we here, you just came to the site and you say that, what the heck!!!!
This is uncalled for!!!!!!
Or is this diary a special case?
Time to stop with the niceness folks, this guy has just given spider a 1 on 10 comments, I am troll rating….
the hidden comments? I thought I was a trusted user, but when these get troll rated, the whole thread just disappears….what’s going on?
dunno, but I was able to find them by going to the search page, checking “view hidden comments”;selecting “comments” in the drop down and hitting search. weird.
that worked for me to, but this comment will not appear on the page, funny huh!
Your original decision was correct.
What a self-centered GBCW speech
Just say goodbye
I dont need to know why
Bill = Bill O’Reilly, I take it.
Say, Bill, know where I can get a good loofah, cheap?
But emotionally an extremist. I love the diaries by Stu and Ductape. I bless them for expressing the anger that I feel. I don’t think most of us really choose to live in that place, but it’s there.
I see this blog as a work of human creative art that everybody contributes to. If you never come here again Spider, that might be an improvement for you, but not necessarily for the rest of us.
I agree with you about reason vs. emotion and I have the same split as you… but to give in to the extremities of our emotions, and the hate we feel only feeds more hate and evil in the world. That is the lesson of Ghandi and MLK. We become no better than our enemies if we use the same tactics as them.
Yes, sometimes we need a shot in the face to make us wake up to what is being done in our names, but to do so by reflecting their hatred for us back onto them doesn’t bring us to where we need to be.
Thanks for the kind words about my contributions and this does indeed kill me to leave, but I’ve been trying my whole life to feed the good wolf and I am having a hard time doing so when I see the type of pain inflicted on those I admire and respect become accepted behaviour.
then dont leave. I always thought of you being a strong voice here and over at kos. I have always admired yoru words..As to others here I respect their thoughts on things…In real life, spider, I hear the same words…..I do not think they are really meaning this, they are just so angry and hurt….I think if things start to come about, so to speak about sailing, one can see the worlds coming to the betterment of and for us all. I really wished y ou would stop and give your heart a change to just think for a moment on others and their feelings and the words they say. I for one have said and done many things in my life I regret. I can only consider I have made a mistake and try hard not to make that mistake again. I really wished you would do likewise and just become more vocal for us here to read your words of wisdom. I learn lots here and I need your presence here to learn as well…I think I am intutitive enough to hear you out as well as others and decide for myself what I want to believe and do things about. I would hope you would as well…..
If you do decide to leave, and lerch, I hope you will see we are all in this boat together…we must find a way out of this cisis together…we can not afford to be come divided..for surely then we all loose…
The thing about sensitive balance beams is the small amount of weight needed to tip them. The emotional ebb and flow around here is no different than the Agent Orange site, and as this site grows that nasty old “signal-to-noise” ratio will grow with it.
C’est la vie say the old folks, it goes to show you never can tell.
Hmm, one could draw parallels between your post and my first comment to spiderleaf, above. Yet I find myself objecting strongly to what you’re saying. Yes, it seems, that just is the way it is. But while I’m saying we should try to find the good where we can, your comment (with all due respect) strikes me as an argument in favour of apathy.
If we’re going to turn the conversation from spiderleaf’s willingness to give up on this site, to a closer inspection of the character of this site itself, then we need more than just “c’est la vie”. We need to do everything we can to rally around the good. We need to show determination in the face of the negativity that can so easily creep in. More importantly we* need to decide whether we’re building a community of back-patters and a forum for bitching, or wether we’re here to look at the problems head on and challenge each other to find solutions.
* I use the term “we” loosely here. After all, I have registered an account. But I don’t profess to be on the same level as the booman himself, or any of the handful of core members who dedicate so much of themselves to making this site what it is.
on the global left that thinks the war in Iraq is so wrong, and the tactics we have used are so egregious, that the only proper response for Americans to take is open defiance of our government. That means not paying our taxes, lying down in the street in front of the white house, a willingness to go to jail, and for our soldiers to refuse to carry out their orders.
Now, I don’t see the war in Iraq in such stark moral terms. If I did, I might agree with people like Stu and Ductape. But I see a much more nuanced picture. I still think we change our country through the political process. And I choose to fight back politically and legally.
But we must confront those that feel this is not enough, or that it won’t work. We have to at least listen to their arguments, and understand why we don’t agree with them.
Some sites are worried about allowing extreme speech because it can reflect poorly on the site and be easily demagogued by the right. That’s a legitimate concern. It is possible to go too far and damage the community in the process.
But I am going to be very forgiving and lenient in allowing people to express their opinions. I will tell them why I think they are wrong and I will learn from them when I think they have a point.
Actually, I’m part of that far left you describe, apparently. Your country violated international law by invading a sovereign nation without cause. Your soldiers’ presence in Iraq constitutes war crimes. It’s as plain and clear as that – there is no question of “wmd’s”. But, you’re right. We need to engage in dialogue with one another, and we need to look hard at each others’ opinions and arguments.
I am trying my hardest to be forgiving and lenient with those who want to vent their anger, and encourage more venom. But, look: it is starting to drive people away. I’m very proud of the way this site is run and the fact that there is no censorship / mass banning. We don’t need that. What I’m asking for is that the community should stand up and embrace the positive side of their ideals, and be careful not to give too much encouragement to that pitiful consolation of back-patting and “preaching to the choir”.
Anyway, I’d like to be more articulate about this, but I’ve really got to run. I think it’s all been said. By Jefferson. By Obama. By you, and by me. So, let’s just “move forward”, as they say, and start kicking some ass, instead of licking our wounds.
I am an American and I agree with this 100%.
I also would note (for everyone’s benefit) that MilitaryTracy did not (at least publicly) seem to express the hurt or feelings of being “beat up” that spiderleaf talks about here.
So, I have to agree with Madman, either we are responsible or we are not. Does that make every individual soldier an evil bastard who loves to kill innocents? Of course not. And I think this argument can be bioled down to, do not paint with a wide brush, no matter what group of people you are talking about. In the end, every “truth” spken, felt or vented comes down to individuals and must be qualified as such. Just my 3 cents worth.
No, MilitaryTracy did not, but Ghostdancersway, Shadowthief, Recordkeeper, etc. most certainly did. And those, and the others who read and did not comment, are who I am speaking of.
And yes, that is my ultimate point. Broad strokes hurt. And they don’t help us build a better world.
Responsibility of all citizens is a given, but everything boils down to individuals and what they are doing to affect change.
….but everything boils down to individuals and what they are doing to affect change.
I agree with this too, but if this is a point of agreement, along with the “broad strokes hurt”, then I am not sure I understand what the problem is.
What is your solution? None of the following seem to actually BE a solution:
People (like you) who don’t like it, just leave.
People who feel hurt, just leave.
People who are speaking in term that people like you don’t like, leave or get banned.
Certain topics of discussion get put “off limits”.
Everyone do what they want and get into huge hurtful flamewars with no resolution.
I don’t like any of these — what are some other solutions?
In this instance I would say… use your voice to affect change. If someone is being a prick, tell them so. But tell them why.
And no, I said I wouldn’t run away after all, because that was me giving into dogma instead of trying to help. So I updated. And I’ve participated in the comments. I think this type of debate is useful and necessary… and I’m glad you’re participating.
I agree 100% with Stu Priddy.
You nice and civil attitude is why criminals like Bush and his Stormtroopers are allowed to function in this world.
this is a prick warning.
I am not going to make this site into an equally repugnant place to the Bush administration to satisfy your desire to disrespect people.
I vehemently disagree with the tone, and substance of Stu Piddy’s diary yesterday, but I do agree with Madman’s and Booman’s position that unless we allow all opinions to be heard, then we are even more hypocritical than the govt. we labor under.
Solution? I don’t know. Confronting opinions that are uncomfortable or hurtful is not an exercise in ease, but I don’t see that we really have a choice. I say put your best argument forward and let it all fall where it may. Maybe we can collectively agree to withdraw from confronting one another after all reasonable attempts have been made to find common ground. I suspect that we will find little, if any common ground with opinions as strong as Stu Piddy’s, but that’s not a bad thing necesarilly.
I agree.
However (ever notice I ALWAYS have a “however”?)
The conflict is going to rise because voices that had been silenced for a very long time are being heard again, and reflecting back the venom that has been directed at them for going on decades now. “Peacenik”, “feminazi”, “women’s studies set” … BOTH groups of partisans have sought to exclude large swaths of poltical perspectives from the debate, and some of those who’ve been excluded are venting YEARS of swallowed anger and vitriol, blackness they’ve had to swallow for far too long.
The broader the debate the better, and that broadness is going to include some ugliness. I’d rather hear ALL that the right has to offer than see that energy directed into a broadening militia movement (has anybody noticed that those groups are smaller now that the right has taken power?). Do we want to quiet the extreme left and end up with a twenty-first century version of the Weathermen, the SLA or the more extreme versions of the Black Panthers (though I can’t think of a community that would be more justified in armed resistance than the African American community)?
is that Americans speaking up to denounce torture and crimes against humanity is a very, very, VERY positive thing.
So say 9 out of 10 torture and atrocity victims surveyed. 😉
That there are Americans who do NOT like being represented by a bestial horde of murdering, maiming marauders is actually a really good thing.
The implication is that they do not perceive brutality and bloodlust as the primordial and defining American value, even when there is profit to be made in doing so, and a price to be paid for opposing it.
For those who look for hope, there is your hope. There is your chance to change your government, your culture, the hearts and minds of your own people.
Those brave few who say no, this is not what America is about are products of the same culture as the guy who explained that Iraqis are tortured for “stress relief.”
That is your evidence that America is not intrinsically and irredeemably evil.
And if your kids do grow up, and if they do so in an environment that does not resemble Rwanda, it will be thanks to people like Stu Piddy, and every other American who in whatever way they can, stands up and says “NO.”
such an ass! (he…he…he) Or maybe because you didn’t worry so much about meeting Colonel Teeples wife as much as I did and didn’t go to such pains to make the food that you brought, and then have her husband go on the record and say that the people that his M.I. boys tortured at Al Asad was all okay and that general dude that they killed was all okay. I know they didn’t send your spouse over there either and your spouse didn’t come home jacked up. If that had been your experience you probably wouldn’t have started this website and you would be in jail right now fighting the power. It wasn’t me who threw out storming the White House, I say you have a bit of the fight in you Booman. Guess you are just going to have to cover the stories in all their fullness and correctness when those who do get arrested are arrested and then I’ll forgive you Boo.
The photo fair suggests this site is all about loving America and the whole world. It is awesome.
Selfishly, I hope you’ll change your mind because I’m always glad to see your name on a diary, but if you don’t, I trust you’re doing the right thing for you at this time. All the best to you, no matter what.
You are right of course kansas, but also wrong. The photography fair is a beautiful thing, but juxtaposed against it yesterday was a hateful screed against members of this community. Those who served, have family or friends who serve in the military.
Everyone has a right to their opinion, and can express it however the choose, but the fact that it is becoming more and more acceptable to do so, imo, damages exactly what we are trying to build… a better world, one blog at a time… jk, but the sentiment remains. we must be the change we seek.
the only reason I consider leaving is because of how much it saddens me to see other members of this community painted with a hateful brush, and it becomes more and more acceptable.
You caught me being pollyannaish, heh. I felt a bit of balance was needed. On a day of beauty, your first sentence was itself a hateful screed against this community, too, and not against just some of it, but all of it. But the thing is–I don’t actually believe for a minute that you think that everybody here hates like that, and neither do I think you really believe nobody on this site actually does anything. I think you were upset on behalf of other people and you went for the easy sarcasm. But it was, to throw your own words back at you, painting a whole community with a hateful brush–doing what you don’t want others to do, in other words. I know this is totally obnoxious of me to point out, and feel free to give me the raspberry, but you did say: “we must be the change we seek.” Your original piece didn’t do that. You did do it, however, when you gracefully added your update and opened up the discussion. Which, btw, I think is an important and valuable one, always.
No raspberry at all. You got my point. I was being dogmatic and painting everyone with a broad brush. But it was because I wanted to shock the senses to look at it from a different perspective. That perhaps it’s not acceptable to be so disrespectful when talking to people. especially as this community is made up of those from many different backgrounds and cultures… and that is what makes us unique… that we can respect and discuss our differences and similarities and how we make this a better world… respectfully…
So, as usual, I went for the snark & added in my own dogma. But yes, my more productive feelings on the matter are in the update. thanks for noticing 🙂
Spiderleaf meet door
I agree with you strongly on the types of diaries here. Its easy to find complaint (especially with republican easy targets) but solutions are much harder to grasp.
Come to think of it, thats where the republicans themselves are these days. It was much easier complaining about tax and spend dems than it is trying to implement an ideology when the real world keeps foiling them. Nontax and spend doesnt seem to be a very positive result.
I trust you have some good alternative actions in mind? Good luck.
You can, of course, do as you please. I know I spend a lot less time in the Bid Orange Place b/c of the attitude of dismissal evident there toward women, peace activists and others.
However …
Political culture has withered and died b/c such wide swaths of points-of-view get declared verbotten. EVERYTHING should be able to be expressed, especially in this time where the most extreme right has free rein.
It is in the full flame of hot political rhetoric that we can forge our worldviews. It is in that forge that we can learn what is brittle and broken so we can begin the hard work toward a new viewpoint.
DF & SP may, in our opinion, take it too far, but people said the same thing about Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee, that it painted the westward expansion with a biased brush. That book, at age ten, opened my eyes to politics. Should I have not read it?
We ARE all, politically, responsible for our government. It’s baked into the system. The fact that an overwhelming majority of Americans don’t take responsibilty seriously enough to even bother to educate themselves about what is going on is a great shame on this nation.
The attitudes expressed by those two posters are merely a mirror image to the ugly American exceptionalism that lies at the root of so much of the wrong we’ve done throughout our history. Of course, that same attitude has enabled us to accomplish good things too.
We are confronted with all aspects of right-wing thought daily in this country. We need to balance that on the left. Marxist prescriptions for the world’s ills were simple-minded and naive, in my opinion, but it is a great detriment to the public debate that no one is allowed to voice Marxism’s criticisms.
Do as you like, but I for one appreciate that there are forums where I can hear EVERY extreme view. I find it helpful.
no, the spectrum should not be narrowed, but we must be the change we seek in the world.
and painting all soldiers, including valued members of this site, as evil murderers does not seek to bring about a liberal, compassionate world.
sure, they can say whatever they want & half the time it’s useful, but why should that narrow minded, hateful type of debate be encouraged and embraced? I thought we wanted to be better than that.
I guess I just read that thread through my own preconceptions because I did not see that being said — I guess I missed something.
I think I’ll just bow out of this now, because as I have learned one time too many. It really doesn’t matter how I define “being a prick” or what kinds of discussions I would like to see on a blog. Ultimately, it is not up to me and, honestly, I do not have the inclination to hash this out, again.
but that’s my point bri, it does matter what you think. you are part of the community too. my opinion is my opinion, and one that I finally expressed forcefully because I was upset about what I saw happening… my own perceptions.
but I see a lot of hate brewing, and rightfully so based on the assholes who are running things, but I think it can be counterproductive when righteous indignation turns to hate… the tool of those who are literally killing us and the world… and I decided to say something…
Perhaps because I do not engage in it — I have at least that much of a will to self-preservation — I see it far less easily than others. I don’t think Stu or DuctTape hate us, I think they both, in their way, try to show us perceptions from outside of our own. Whether we agree with them or not or whether we see what they see or not, doesn’t matter to me. Just as your opinion is valuable and it’s expression necessary, so is theirs. I don’t see where hate plays into it at all — but maybe that’s just me.
I suppose when I read sentences such as:
really, American parents willingly accept that? Lyndie England’s parents are proud of her? All American’s praise brutality and bloodlust? Nice.
…
If you are fortunate enough to have access to elderly Germans, they can offer a very valuable perspective on the subject of complicity with atrocities.” ~ DuctapeFatwa in response to ghostdancer
really, all American’s condone and accept what the troops are doing… that’s why 500k people marched in DC, etc… nice generalization and deciding to label all American’s warmongers & apologists for torture.
I could go on, but this is what I saw. So if that is not hateful, I must be overly sensitive.
I don’t see it as hateful because I know that there are instances where most all of this is true — and I don’t see the word “all” in Ducttape’s comments at least — I do see the phrase “many Americans” and “within a cultural context” a very different thing than talking about individuals to my eyes and ears. Can you honestly say that blood lust and brutality are NOT prized and praised in American society? DF is NOT talking about the hearts of individuals here, he is talking about a consensus as described by a society’s actions. Thus, I don’t see it as hateful. I am not asking anyone else to see it as I do NOR am I calling anyone “overly sensitive”.
I disagree with Stu Piddy’s comment if he means ALL soldiers because I know it to categorically untrue, but I also know that it applies to some (soldiers or no, a lot of American are dumb, trained morons, just different conditioning, that’s all).
I have no idea whether Lyndie England’s parents are proud of her, but as a country, we were oh, so proud of Jessica Lynch, weren’t we? even when she herself siad the narrative concocted about her was a lie.
I don’t have to hate anyone to see these things and I certainly don’t have to accuse those who point these things out of hating (I don’t say for sure that I know they don’t either, but this is a blog, not real-life).
Does any of this make any sense?
I heard a very devout person, an active person in a mainline protestant faith, active in his church, say the day after the news of Abu Grabe broke: “These things happen in war, and I’m sure that they thought it was necessary to get the information they needed.”
(paraphrased from horrified memory).
You underestimate the darkness and easy hatred that lingers in some of the hearts of the good folks in the “heartland”.
I don’t underestimate. I just know that there are a whole slew of Yanks who don’t think the same way… and to paint them all with the same brush is oh so wrong.
I lived in the United States for some time. It was quite an education. One lesson that I was taught in a way that has made me unlikely to ever forget it, was that many Americans, including many Democrats, really, genuinely don’t think that non-Americans are just as human as them. Not when push comes to shove. And so, when I lived there, I found that many of my friendships only went so far — less far than I had thought.
Not all, but many .
Enough so that some of the statements that you saw as ‘hateful’ seem to me to express — albeit bluntly — some sad, but fairly uncontroversial, obvious truths.
You know, of all the many things, large and small, that have haunted me about Bush’s re-election/reappointment — call it what you will — the little trivial one that has most securely lodged itself in my mind is an excerpt from Kerry’s concession speech.
And that is the greatest privilege and the most remarkable good fortune that can come to us on Earth.”
How is a foreigner to reply to this?
well, I am a Canadian, who also lived in the states and am married to a yank and I can say I saw some of what you experienced, but certainly not more so than in any other country.
Do the French not view themselves as superior and the rest of the world as less civilized? How else do you explain their colonialism?
What about the Brits? Did they not view Indians as less than themselves?
How about the Germans, Russians, Chinese (Taiwan & Tibet ring a bell?), the list goes on and on. It’s not America per se, but humanity.
And we can only keep speaking the truth and trying to enlighten people. But as the old adage goes… you catch more flies with honey…
in the current situation.
That discomfort is actually a positive sign.
It shows that people are thinking, questioning beliefs so ingrained, so deep, that many don’t even realize they are there.
A poster asked in another thread, why should US do the Arabian people the favor of ceasing support for the princes and allowing the people to choose their own government.
The belief that sovereignty, self-determination, the right to self defense, human rights, human status, are all privileges only the US can bestow or revoke is not one that Americans tend to dissect and analyze a lot.
Now, as events unfold, many are forced by their own intelligence to face the uncomfortable fact that these beliefs so closely, even unconsciously held, lived by, and sacrificed for, are actually their doom.
Everybody wants to believe the best about their country, their tribe, their family, and what some in the US are going through right now could be compared to a young person who just found out that he is the product of a major Mafia family, that the uncles and cousins, even his own father, have committed, and continue to commit horrible crimes, and everything he has ever owned, the clothes he is wearing, the tuition to the school he attends, the removal of his appendix, all were paid for with blood money.
And so now what will he do? Will he deny his father and refuse his name, and turn the whole family in, thus condemning those he loves to a life in prison, and putting his own life at risk at the same time? Not to mention suddenly having no money or resources.
Or will he just go on to the bank and deposit this week’s check and be complicit in the crimes himself?
When out of 300 million, only a few hundred thousand show up to march against a war, even subtracting all those who would have marched but are too old, too sick, too poor, etc. it is neither radical nor unreasonable to say that generally, there is not a large public opposition to that war.
When out of 150 thousand, only a few dozen “troops” refuse to commit atrocities, it is neither radical nor unreasonable to say that generally, within the culture of those forces, there is not a large opposition to atrocities.
Now add all that up and you have a recipe for some major discomfort.
You have a lot of individuals forced to choose between their own moral “laws” or the laws of their government, at the same time they are also forced to confront the ingrained cultural beliefs that have brought them, and their country, to this point.
There are times when discomfort is not only necessary, but a Good Thing (TM)
Agreed.
My fear is that people only reach this state of discomfort if they see a conflict between their conscience and the law, or the actions of the state. And that, I think, depends inversely on the extent to which they have internalised the precepts of patriotism.
Increasingly in these barren and barbarian times, I think that patriotism is the linchpin that holds this whole bloody mess of empire together.
Imagine there’s no heaven,
It’s easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today…
Imagine there’s no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace…
Imagine no possessions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world…
You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you’ll join us,
And the world will live as one.
The immortal words of John Lennon
——————————————————————————–
When people are forced to follow or break either their own moral “laws” or the laws of the government that they may be not too sure is there to protect them, that is not comfortable or easy.
Because it brings them back to the problem of what their country is versus what they may have been told and hoped it was versus what they would have it be. 🙂
I’m about to drop you a line to your yahoo account.
a heartfel thanks Dove, for your eloquence.
I am sorry you are so hurt, Spiderleaf. But I also am glad to see, and support Ductape Fatwa’s interepretation of the good that comes from the raw conversation that Stu Piddy provoked.
And as a non-American, I can tell you frankly that with very few exceptions, I have never seen American commentators bother to qualify their sweeping statements about the actions of other foreign soldiers, or even terrorists for that matter. If the actions of a collective group of American soldiersare condemned, it’s immediately followed by cries of foul, how unfair sweeping generalisations are etc. – immediately followed by apologies, hasty qualifications, long musings on the motivations of the individual Americans in question, excuses, explanations etc.
You certainly never the see the same thought or consideration given to the motivations, reasons, definitely never any excusing of the actions of foreign troops or terrorists. What makes it even worse is that by grant of wealth and power, Americans have far more voices in mediums like this one to defend and speak for their people; there are very few, and frequently no voices to speak for the other side -whoever that “other” may be.
This is American exceptionalism in the raw. I am sorry it hurts, but if you can’t step back enough to admit that a captain timing a point-blank tank attack on a civilian building that killed women and children, to best fit with a CNN reporter’s needs, is not the most banal and disgusting of atrocities, and not indicative of a broader systemic cultural rot in the US army as it is operating in Iraq, then I think you have lost what objectivity you need to look at what is happening.
If someone here had posted a diary on a Taliban troop timing the destruction of a civilian house full of women and children to best show it on Afghani state television, you would be sick to your stomach.
Considering how I am also not American, I fail to see how your comment applies to the hypocrisy I was seeing.
whatever your origins, it is clear where your loyalities and perspective is derived from when it comes to this issue, at least.
not true. I have no loyalty to the American military. I have loyalty to human beings, no matter their nationality or service in the military.
Many joined well before the Iraq war and were lied to so they would believe they were ridding an immenient threat. Many now see that to be the case.
Painting all with a generality is unfair, unproductive & not a liberal trait imo.
Then frankly I don’t understand why you react so strongly to Stu Piddy et al. expressing highly understandable, and highly emotional anger, yes in generalisations, at Americans; because I don’t see the same thing happening when someone here or at other sites expresses that same level of rage, and emotional generalisations about terrorists who blew up innocent people.
There’s no-one stepping up saying “look just because the terrorists did this doesn’t make all terrorists blah blah blah” In fact, we just call them all terrorists and leave it at that – yet on a day to day basis there is precious little difference between the reported actions of the US military and the reported actions of the “terrorists”. The main difference is the language it’s framed in.
So what I am saying, respectfully, but bluntly, is I simply don’t see that same loyalty you are expressing for American soldiers extended to other human beings. I can’t comment on you specifically because I’ll admit to not having the time to go through all your comment and so on, but as a general response to your general response, I say this.
Thanks for your reply but frankly I’ve already laid it all out in the comments of this diary and I don’t have the energy to do so again.
Simply – not all American’s are evil. Not all American’s are egotistical, jingoistic pricks. A lot of American’s are fighting against the neo-con Imperialist regime. A lot of American’s are part of this planet and deserve just as much respect as any one else too.
I am a liberal. I don’t deal in absolutes.
and I hope you’re staying.
not all terrorists are evil. Not all terrorists are egotistical, jingoistic pricks. A lot of terrorists are fighting against the neo-con Imperialist regime. A lot of terrorists are part of this planet and deserve just as much respect as any one else too.
You are a liberal. You don’t deal in absolutes.
Right ? ? ?
Hey Deward, is this a response to me?
If it is, I think I need you to expand slightly on your point, before I go off on a tangent.
Spiderleafs comment about “Americans”, with the reference changed. Spiderleaf makes the argument that there are good American troops and bad American troops, and that it’s unfair to paint them all with the same broad brush. If that is so then we must allow for good terrorists (who “join up” only to rid their country of foreign invaders, or bacause they need a paycheck) and bad terrorists. One rule fits all . . .
I happen to be of the persuasion that the guy who loads the bomb under the wing and the guy who cooked lunch for the guy who loads the bomb under the wing are both as guilty as the pilot who drops the bomb on a house full of women and children, or on the bridge or water treatment plant on which a city depends. Others argue that guilt goes no further than he who pulls the trigger. Still others (and apparently a common view here) argue that the guilt belongs only to he who ordered the bombing, and that the pilot and deck hand and cook are all “good Americans”, pure as the driven snow. Quite the argument we’re having . . .
And there’s a larger dimension, too . . . the “all Americans” thing. Back in my long lost youth there was much discussion about a concept sometimes called “democratic centerism” . . . the contention that one could argue all one wanted before the vote, but that after a policy was decided everyone who participated was bound by the decision. At the core of the argument is the contention that the price of voting is the agreement to abide by the result. If you voted in the last election then George Bush is your President and his policies are your policies, or at least that is what some would say. An election is not just an opinion poll, it is a committment . . .
Left undecided is the moral position of those who don’t vote . . . thinking either “a pox on both their houses” or that one option is so bad that they cannot, in good conscience, accept or abide one of the possible outcomes . . .
well it depends on if you are talking about terrorists or freedom fighters… and as there are a lot of American freedom fighters here on this site and in the world at large, comparing them all to terrorists seems a bit harsh dontcha think?
Repeat after me… Neo-Con Administration is not representative of ALL American’s.
myriad, the thing is that spiderleaf is not rush limbaugh, and you’ve got to separate the two, even though both are just on the other side of the same screen you’re staring at. Rather than try to explain further, I will refer you here, I hope you see the connection to what I am saying:
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/10/9/16529/2721#14
I find it difficult to respond to your post, because it’s so far from where I’m coming from, there’s an awful lot of ground to be covered in between to say something meaningful between us.
For starters I’ve not a clue how you’ve got it in your head that I can’t differentiate spiderleaf from Limbaugh & his ilk.
I think what I’m trying to point out is that by virtue of a huge American presence on the internet, and swathes of information, and a whole range of historical factors (like the US dominance of television programming globally), we have the luxury of, and all-too easily indulge in American exceptionalism, because Americans are without doubt people and humans to all of us. Heck, the global outpouring of grief and identification with American suffering during both 9/11 and now Hurricane Katrina are startling examples of just how connected the rest of the world feels to average Americans as human beings – because there is a sense of knowing generated by the pervasive presence of all things American intruding (in the more neutral sense) into cultures across the world. And for no-one is this more true than Americans about themselves.
So when some Americans act either individually or systemically in prfoundly inhumane ways, the reaction, especially from Americans, is to justify, deny, explain, contextualise etc etc. And because of the sheer presence of Americans globally, that reaction is broadcast loud and clear globally. Deliberately or not, it works very hard to refute the most obvious of conclusions – that something is very, very rotten and terrible within the modern American military, psyche.
And conversely, and in stark contrast, there is no voice of reason, or very, very few, to speak for, justify, contextualise, excuse, explain the actions of “terrorists”, and indeed their very lable precludes any such discussion being merited anything more than contempt and dismissal.
This is not to imply that the actions of terrorists are justified, but the state terrorism of American troops in Iraq, is virtually identical in everything but name and how it is portrayed.
So this is not an argument for me about who is right or wrong, or evil or justified, but about who has the power to speak for their people, who gets exceptional treatment, who controls the means and the perceptions that govern our communication.
The bottom line, as Ductape Fatwa has pointed out so eloquently in post after post, is that the horrifyingly, and systemically brutal actions of troops and the US military command in Iraq has torn a huge rent in the fabric of everyday American reality, and all the nightmares that they have been so cocooned from by virtue of living at the heart of the empire are pouring through. It is a good thing that so many are so angry, and hurt and questioning. And some react as Stu Piddy did, with nigh-on unctontrollable anger and yes, sweeping but not entirely unjustified generalisations.
And that’s the heart of this to me. Those generalisations wouldn’t hurt and spark such violent reactions back if it wasn’t for the fact that the evidence undeniably points towards a systemic problem, not just a few isolated sadists /whatever. The generalisations hurt so much, because they are so much closer to the truth than many can take.
I’ll end by saying this. I grew up knowing quite a few Australian Vietnam Vets. One once broke down and cried after the war memorial ceremony, drunk, and told 16yo me about shooting a Vietnamese girl about my age because he thought she was carrying a grenade. She was carrying her lunch. I could tell it never stopped haunting him.
War makes monsters from the best of us, especially when the system is corrupt and depraved, and the US military certainly is. It is time Americans looked that in the face, and stopped reaching for the justification, the context, the explanation.
Can I ask you a favour myriad — can you do a diary on this? The issue of voice, and who gets counted as human and how this ties into empire, I mean? Because your post here strikes me as one of the most important additions I’ve seen to any of these diaries and I think it needs to be seen by more people than it will be, coming late in an already long diary.
But it probably won’t be for a couple of days. I’ve got to travel for work tomorrow, and review are frighteningly long report, and give my girlfriend some attention in between. 😉
And also, to be truthful, I’m not sure I know where to start, so some time to mull would be good.
I’ll be happy to explain myself further in the morning… It’s always my pleasure to take part in a fair discussion with liberally minded folk. But I’m going to have to put this off until tomorrow, if I’m going to say anything that makes sense.
But, let me say that I agree with most of your outlook here. I know this exceptionalism you’re talking about, and, no, it is not fair. What I meant above was that I disagree with your use of the word “we” when you say “… we have the luxury of, and all-too easily indulge in American exceptionalism… ” Now, from what I know of spiderleaf, like myself, she does not indulge of that luxury very often, and speaks truth to power at every turn.
You talk about the label “terrorist”, that is used by “some Americans act[ing] either individually or systemically … their very lable precludes any such discussion being merited anything more than contempt and dismissal.” A lot of what this entire thread has been about is this concept of generalizations and labels, and how unfair they are, especially when used as a way of packaging righteous indignation into a misdirected skreed of venom and toxic mental energy.
Okay, that was more detail than I expected to get into, but I feel it still doesn’t do justice to your thoughtful reply. So, I’ll finish by saying that the link I provided earlier is the counter-example. [deleted: senseless rant in praise of the poster]
Anyway, I hope you see that we have the same vision of what a Just world would look like, at least in many important ways. I’m only disagreeing with a minor part of your tactics – generalizing as a way of not having to mind the details over who or where that vision has been betrayed.
that’s why I value these exchanges – I’m at the point, if I’m honest, that I can’t see the point in even trying with someone who fundamentally doesn’t want what we both want.
I’ll look forward to whatever you have time to add tomorrow (your time).
not one person here has said that this act by this particular capt is anything other than a crime. I and I believe many others object to the wholesale classification of the entire military as criminals and moron simpering automatons who can not nor will not think for themselves.
As a family member of two marines in Iraq, and many friends who are serving, I found that offensive and contemptible. Then there is the over generalization that all Americans are evil because our dumb ass in chief has started a war on lies and deceit.
I rarely use all, everything, everybody, because they are not real when describing a culture, organization or group of individuals.
I can only hope that moronic TV personality is also charged with a war crime when they get around to finally charging that capt with a crime against humanity.
I know you and a couple others really took yesterday’s post hard and personal.
Maybe I’m just a bit more accepting of hyperbole, but I simply don’t get it.
We know the military is creating the conditions that leads individual soldiers to committing these offenses. We know the military leadership, from sergeant on upwards is doing little to nothing to stop this, and the killing of civilians at checkpoints, the suspicious ‘accidental’ killing of journalists, the torture and abuse of detainees, the midnight ‘insurgent raids’ where children see their parents held at gunpoint weeping before dad is taken away — disappeared. If they assume their loved ones are being treated like the released Abu Ghraib pictures they are being generous, considering all the unreleased pictures and video our government is desperately trying to keep from the public.
So, how exactly do you see the guilt being passed down? You think blaming the troops in general is too much. But blaming Rumsfeld and Bush is obviously not accurate, either, seeing as how they aren’t sending down orders to have CNN reporters and captains shell particular residential houses. Members of the military — more specifically, members of the command are choosing to carry out unlawful orders, or are refusing to discipline their troops for spontaneously committing war crimes.
I get that you, and Spiderleaf, and Shadowthief, are feeling very much offended by the accusation that all troops are guilty by association. And I appreciate and respect that your relatives in particular are doing the right thing in speaking out against the things they personally see, even at risk of harm to their own careers.
So, this is more than a few bad apples, and less than a criminal conspiracy involving every single troop. I think we all knew that.
So why are some of you taking it so personally? Why are you taking hyperbole and extrapolation and choosing to take it almost as a personal attack?
This is an area of grays. Any accusation that all troops are involved are silly. Why take the silly personally? The implication that 99% of our troops have their hands clean is equally preposterous. This is more than a few bad apples, this is how wars are fought. Its probably not much worse than any war we’ve fought with cultures foreign to our own. This is war.
War sucks.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but my response is this…
Because we could have been having conversations like this all along. Now that’s productive. And if it took this blow up to get us there, well, I’m glad it did. And we have to keep working on communicating with each other. And being the change we seek. And pushing our boundries respectfully.
I appreciate all your contributions to this discussion as well Yaright & hold no ill will.
I really do appreciate that, spiderleaf. And I hope my comments have come across as more out of frustration than anger.
I am upset. A community I looked to for peace is running hot with discord right now. Two of the posters (not you) I really do respect are taking this “fight” off into other diaries now. Intentionally or not, they’re screaming STFU in someone elses diary simply because Ductape posted praise of it, and it was critical of the behavior of the US.
If you feared self-censorship, think about what that is saying — don’t post diaries here critical of the US Govt? Say what!??? But here those two people I have greatly respected in the past are carrying out a grudge against Ductape and if they imply that to the diary author or anyone reading the diary, ah well, so what??
This is what I meant about the power of cliques. We all respect at least one of the two of them. But how many of you will stand up and tell those two they’ve crossed a line there? And how many will support them, simply because they’ve admired their writing in the past? How many will rally to their defense because their preconceived notions of what those two gentleman are like will cause them to ignore the evidence of what they’re doing, or make excuses for why they did it?
I’m glad you’re happy with all the support you got in this diary you didn’t feel you got in Stu’s. But forgive me for questioning if this was all really worth it in the end, after all.
Thanks Yaright. I agree. But I think emotions were running high regardless of if I posted today or not. But with my post we had a chance to talk things out. And yes, unfortunately it spilled into other threads. And it may seem to be “thought police” like, but it wasn’t just ghostdancer & shadowthief who took offense, others did as well… and I think it was to the last paragraph, and the last paragraph only… the generalization against all American’s.
I think many American’s who have been fighting their whole lives to affect change in their country and the world have had about enough of being made complicit in the acts of the bastards they are fighting against. If they aren’t being called traitors by the right they are being called war criminals/ mongers by the extreme left. I’ve done it myself. Back when I was young and full of anger and resentment and sorrow. I’m still full of those things but I’ve learned to embrace the shades or grey and to try and take others feelings into consideration.
Were ghostdancer and shadowthief right for bringing this fight into that other diary? no. I did not and would not. I think once they calm down they’ll say the same thing. But probably not agree to allow the generalization at the conclusion of that diary slide either.
I read that, I have to say I almost entirely agree with it.
That isn’t saying that people of the world are looking into the hearts of liberals and progressives and seeing that in their souls.
Its simply saying that judging the US by its policies, its actions, its rhetoric, and its effects, that really is the obvious conclusion.
America has been coasting on the goodwill of the rebuilding of Europe and Japan after WWII. We were the perfect world victors — win, clean up, (mostly) go home. You can’t more gracious in victory in that.
But under Reagan, Bush I, (respite mostly under Clinton), Bush II, and before, what have we done?
1 – banana republics in south and central america, the war on drugs, and other absurdities were ignored by the greater world because it was in our own back yard. Then we pulled Iraq, and dared the world to call us on it. We made a point of blowing off the concerns of other nations. We killed #1.
2 – the way we’re conducting the war in Iraq questions whether we’re a force of good, abroad. The way we handled Katrina brings into question whether we’re a force for good in our own country. The secret wars we’re conducting in Columbia under the aegis of the war on drugs, and the threatening overatures to the govt of Venezuela would otherwise be ignored, but now “goes to pattern”.
3 – what we’ve been up to in our own hemisphere hasn’t been a secret to other govts. Thanks to our incompetant handling of the Iraq war, its been made clear to the public of our allies and enemies alike. Our White House is so proud of it, our UN ambassador states the UN exists to exert American will, and if it doesn’t serve American interests, we aren’t interested in the UN. The world would have be deaf dumb blind and naive to believe we have any interest in the world other than our own.
4 – For good? I don’t know. Universally? I think our citizen’s response to the tsunami (as opposed to our govt’s pitiful token response) reminded the world that the American People are NOT the American Govt. But our Govt has only as many friends as it deserves.
5 – At home? Aren’t we all suspicious that the govt doesn’t have the interests of the poor of NO at heart? Abroad? The French and Germans were right about Iraq. We still haven’t admitted that. We support dictators that agree with us (Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, etc) and oppose democracies that oppose us. Who are we kidding?
We can hate that GW Bush has done this to our great nation. But its done. We can regret that we couldn’t deliver a fraud-proof election victory over this insanity. But we didn’t.
We can hate the world as created in the Neo-con image. But we shouldn’t deny that this is the image of our country out there right now. We might wish to cling to the illusion of our greatness, but it would be dangerous for other countries to simply assume it.
(and for the record, I wish the discussions on this topic could have been as civil as our interchanges have been — I appreciate that)
I think what is fundamentally missing here is the understanding and acceptance of the difference between responsibility and culpability.
Individual soldiers, and the chain of command, are culpable for the war crimes being commited by Americans in Iraq.
All Americans bear a level of responsibility for the presence of American troops, and ergo their actions in their name, in Iraq.
so what I see happen, is a group of American soldiers commits a crime, and people are generally able to admit those soldiers are responsible, even culpable, but refuse or angrily deny the links to their own, and the military as a whole’s, responsibility.
The worst is when people excuse the actions of soldiers with the usual shit about them being “under orders” or “what choice did they have” – the same as all the other soldiers through time immemorial who have had the courage and will to refuse an order.
Now I don’t believe in evil. It’s a religous word. It’s a word Bush uses and a word you use and it’s a magical word. It has a power of it’s own. When you say it , it creates an emotional response in most people. Because most people have been trained to beilieve: Devil=Evil and Good=God.
The thing about Evil is that it can’t be seen, but you know it’s there don’t you? . It can get to you before you even see it coming toward you.
Again I don’t believe in Evil. It seems you do. I never use the word to descriptively.
There’s a CD out called the Axis of Evil. (I was asked to be one of the speakers but I in true stu piddy, Stupidity fashion declined}.
So I didn’t say the troops were evil. But you are saying I did. Now you may say well, that’s what it amounts to…but I didn’t say that.
I don’t think any soldiers should be punished for what they have done once they are back here in the US. But they have to be stopped while they are in Iraq.
Marxist prescriptons were simple minded and naive. Especially those prescriptions which predicted the eventual overthrow of capitalism by the working class
However, Marxist historical view, which looks at the warfare between “classes” of people who conquer other “classes” of people (as in the French Revolution – bourgeoisie overthrew Aristocracy, which made way for the industrial revolution, which birthed both capitalism and the working class, which birthed socialism, then capitalism birthed fascism as a response to socialism and so on) is anything but simple minded and naive.
One can fit the entirety of human history inside the dialectical view of civilization as a constant struggle between peoples, economic classes, religion versus enlightenment ideas, with the winner at each stage representing the loser in some future stage.
Like you, I am not one who thrives on anger. I checked out the diaries and comments, said my two cents worth and left because I didn’t want to get caught up in the emotion of it all.
As I said to Stu, I do understand the frustration and I appreciate the need to express it, but overgeneralizations do hurt people and if I’m unable to find some good in people in this world – yes, even soldiers despite the fact that I am antiwar, I’ll just be left an empty shell and that’s not the way I want to live.
I hope you’ll reconsider and focus on what you need to for yourself here. Overall, it is still the best lefty American blog community. We’re close knit and we have to expect tension because of that. That’s why Boo has the “don’t be a prick” rule. If we can live by that, we can move forward together.
Please e-mail me if you want to talk. I can be a good listener.
For several reasons. One, I am in favor of freedom of speech. I resepect BooMan for allowing different points of view to be expressed on his site.
But an even more important reason: I think you are providing a valuable reminder here.
Americans who oppose torture, who oppose crimes against humanity, are opposing their government.
A few weeks ago, 300 thousand, or 500 thousand, who knows? Americans went to Washington to march in opposition to the policies of that government, and it appears there was some attempt to infect them with rabbit fever.
Cindy Sheehan was literally seized, and imprisoned for expressing opposition to government policies that resulted in the death of the sons of many mothers from many nations, one of those sons was hers.
There is that famous small but precious list over on Military Tracy’s diary, some of those folks are in jail, others are in great danger of it.
Their crime? defending your freedom, defending your constitution, by refusing to engage in crimes against humanity.
So your diary is a much needed reminder that refusal not only to embrace US policies, but to express opposition to them, even on an internet message board, has its price. You my be vilified, flamed, called ugly names, even compared to Hitler, which is a unique twist, since there are some still living who tend to associate him with the commission of atrocities, not opposition to them.
There will be people who do not want to be even in a virtual room with you, so intense is their disgust that you consider a dusty Iraqi child’s life to have the same value as your own, their own.
But the larger picture is far from unique.
Just think what reaction he would get a few decades ago, if a German had stood up and uttered the truth that Jews were just as human, just as valuable as non-Jews, and a regime who murdered them, from the head of state own down to the guy who turned the gas on, were criminals.
Plus ca change, plus ca la meme chose is also a truth, and in my opinion, your telling of it is a valuable contribution.
Exactly. A lot of people in America do stand up for what is right. And try to speak truth to power to their government. And make a difference. And stop the war machine. And the corporate machine. And a lot of those people have served their country in the military. Or had friends or family who have.
So perhaps taking that into consideration when you call all soldiers evil and all American’s culpable would be nice… and a bit more productive to making your point… with people who would otherwise agree with you.
Just a thought.
would be effective, Ductape, if you could have refrained from taking what I think of as a cheap shot.
First of all, you are engaging in a tautological argument. First you ascribe crimes against humanity to all the US forces, then you prescribe a universal remedy. But that is precisely the debate.
There have been violations of the laws of war, and of course the war itself can be considered a violation of international law, and therefore all actions (even the most generous) can be considered illegal and crimes. But that just fudges the debate.
Soldiers are doing a mix of things in Iraq. Very few are taking actions that are in violation of the laws of war (unless you insist that even building a school is illegal, since they have no right to be in Iraq to build it).
Spiderleaf objects to the soldiers in Iraq being presumed to be war criminals, and with very good reason. You should respect those that do not see the mere presence in Iraq as a crime.
By suggesting that Spiderleaf’s position is tantamount to being an apologist for torture you are being a prick.
by their very presence, would the fact of invading US constitute a crime?
I think most Americans, especially if you asked them before US invasion of Iraq, would answer with a resounding “hell yes!”
And would answer the same if asked if it would be a crime for any country to invade the US.
And I would agree with them, 100%.
Where I and most Americans part company is that if you reverse the question, is it a crime for US to invade Iraq, well, not too many Americans believe that’s a crime.
Now those folks have the right to their views, but they do not have the right to express those views with bombs.
So what you may perceive as a cheap shot, I think it is just once again a manifestation of that irreconcilable disagreement on the question of whether the US owns the earth.
And my point has consistently been, I am not going to try and dissuade anyone from that view.
What I will do is continue to point out that it is a view that is not popular outside the US, and invading more countries is just not going to make it more popular.
Now regarding the crusaders, no one seems to interested in the ones who oppose crimes against humanity, they are indeed a small minority, and the small amount of attention and support they receive sends a very clear message to any others who might be wondering if beating a man’s legs for five days until he dies while your buddies laugh in the next room is what he ought to be doing with his life.
By now, any credibility that the few bad apples argument might have had, at least in the US, is pretty much shot.
As one poster pointed out in the other thread, if it’s not the accepted policy, how come nobody stayed the guy’s hand? Where were all the men refusing to obey the illegal orders, and the higher ups calling in the guy who issued it?
Here is the litmus test: If it would be a war crime if an Iranian gunman came to your house and did it to you, it’s a war crime if an American goes to Iraq, or Norway, or Malaysia, and does it there.
That is what is meant by the Jew has as much value as the non-Jew.
No qualifiers, conditions or exemptions.
And thank God for those few good apples
Yes. And here is my question to you:
Where is the rest of the world? Why can this rouge nation not be taken to task for this illegal war? Why isn’t any other country or alliance of countries doing anything about it?
I have my own speculations about answers to this question. But I am interested in hearing what you have to say. I do not think individual Americans should be taken to task, or as gdw says, be called war criminals or heartless brutes, for not doing what the rest of the wrold community certainly has an equal responsiblity for doing and is not.
question.
The US is the most feared nation on earth. No single entity has been so feared for many many years.
Now a lot of that has to do with the mass quantities of weapons of mass destruction US has.
Hitler, for example, did not have huge nuclear arsenals that could destroy entire continents in minutes, if the notion struck him.
Russia was feared by the US, and by some of its fellow colonial powers in Europe, but the Majority World does not now and did not ever view socialism as the worst thing that could befall their economies. Granted, this is because most people in the world are poor.
If you go into the countryside and ask poor people in Iran about the revolution there, they will tell you it was a great thing, they have more food, and more medicine now. Go into Teheran and reviews are more mixed. But that is a very complicated subject and has nothing to do with your question. Sorry. I’m old.
Have you ever considered how much of the foreign policy of other nations is based on avoidance of pissing America off?
That in itself is a pretty serious threat to US national security, in the sense of YOUR security, when you think about it.
You will notice what a fuss is made when any country dares to elect somebody that US doesn’t like.
Right this minute, you can go and find message boards full of educated people who are making very fervent arguments that US must not delay in spreading democracy on Venezuela, right now, this afternoon to free the Venezuelan people of that awful dictator. So they can have elections. And yes, it is educated people who say this.
Try making a list of countries in which US has in no way interfered, covertly or overtly.
Now make another list, this time of countries who are in no way involved in any armed conflict, either directly or indirectly, in support capacity or financial.
Now take that list and put a line through each one in which US is not involved in any way, covertly, overtly, supply of arms, money or both, to any faction.
Do you hear a loud ticking sound yet?
They are afraid?? That is your answer? And that gets them off the hook?
Then why, by all that is holy, or unholy, as the case may be, should individuals, American or otherwise, be held to a higher standard of responsibility or action than entire countires??
(PS Yes, I know all about Venezuela, and a lot fo other things too — there are educated idiots all over the wrold, we certainly do not have the only ones).
And it is pretty much the same hook that the US people are on.
There are differences, obviously, it is the US leading the way, which does not mean that Americans should be held to a different standard, just that the question is a bit more urgent for Americans.
That said, there has been a tendency, I think to do exactly that, have higher expectations of the US than of say, Somalia.
Now people around the world will argue well that is because America is always advertising itself as this wonderful and moral country with all these great principles, but that does not make it fair, and I think that is a problem that is on its way out, as advances in technology of information and travel have proliferated.
This is good news and bad news. It is good news for Americans because today it is possible for Americans to have at their fingertips a lot of information about their nations’ history, and the activities of their politicians, past and present, that simply did not exist a few decades ago.
You don’t need me or anybody else to tell you about the CIA and Mossadeq for example, it is a matter of public record.
The arguments that Americans have today over things like covert operations and policy papers are not about whether they exist, but more along the lines of arguments heard a few years ago when Americans viewed the Rodney King video.
Some saw a brutal police beating, others saw six terrified cops, armed only with sticks, trying to defend themselves against a large dangerous black man who was writhing on the ground in a threatenting manner.
Today the questions that have Americans on the hook is not whether US policy is that it is the boss of earth, or whether atrocities are committed by American gunmen, but whether and how strongly to support that policy, and how much to sacrifice for it, and whether and with what arguments to justify atrocities.
Americans are on the hook over what standards they will apply to themselves, what standards they will hold their servants, namely their politicians and their armed forces, and themselves to.
The rest of the world is on the hook over essentially the same thing, which unfortunately translates into how much of the world’s future can be sacrificed for how long to avoid pissing off an entity that has the power to destroy a world it believes it owns.
I can’t speak for spiderleaf, of his opinion on torture.
That is not really relevant to my point, which is if you oppose torture in the US, you will be ostracized, because you are opposing your government.
Now you can think that is good, or you can think that is bad.
Spiderleaf is showing you that it is true, and I am thanking him for doing that.
This is exactly what I am talking about Ductape. Generalizations.
No, you don’t know about me at all. First off, I’m a she, not a he. Not that it makes a huge difference, but thought I’d mention it anyway.
Is it because you oppose torture that you are claiming you are being ostracized? I think you should rethink that. Because if that were the case I should be ostracized too. I’ll give you a sample. Click through if you feel so inclined and then come back and talk to me.
Orwell Lives & Perpetual War
We are all Complict in these vile acts
The Unknown Unknowns of Abu Ghraib
An Open Letter to Democrats
The Forgotten Victims of War, Girl Soldiers
Disgusting & Immoral
In your name America
are relevant to my point. I apologize for smearing you with a generic “he.” People have called me “she” and while it has on occasion tempted me to post something clever about the importance of eyeliner versus attitude in gender determination, the urge only lasts a minute or so.
If you, or anyone else opposes torture too vigorously, too unequivocally, vocally or generally, you will be ostracized in some way, whether you do it here, or whether you do it in front of the White House, or whether you do it in Tal Afar.
That is because it is US policy. And believe me, there are thousands of people in “facilities” around the world who really wish it were just some isolated incidents of a few bad apples.
Now here is some good news. It is a divisive issue, a wedge issue, an inflammatory topic.
Even mass slaughter is headed toward becoming a divisive issue. Even when they victims are Iraqis. Or Afghans. Or poor African-Americans in New Orleans.
Yes, Americans have essentially sat and watched. But they do not all like what they see.
That is a positive sign, a hopeful sign.
The first step in making progress is acknowledging where you are.
This site has been changing and I am not sure of the cause. I will give you my view so far, and keyword here is view.
The first group of people came to this site because we were tired of the venom expressed on another site, we wanted a calmer, more respectful surrounding to discuss our ideas and views and that’s really all they are is our own individual ideas and views.
As the site grew and the “great influx” happened many people became members here not because they wanted to be on a calmer, more respectful site but they wanted a site where they could carry on with the same type of rhetoric commonly used on DK, but without the restrictions placed on them by the site owner. As we all know it at times has been the place to discuss DK itself, in the same manner that DK’ers use and many fights arose out of that.
We are not all going to agree on any one thing, but it is how we agree and disagree that matters.
I am struggling with this issue myself. As I have seen the fights break out here and there, I am in a quandry whether to wade in and try to calm things or let them self resolve. I am reluctant to throw my two cents in at times because I can then become the target and often I agree with points on both sides, but not all on either.
It seems to me that if you disagree with someone on an issue or point of view you can state that and then let it go, rather than insisting that the person come around to your point of view and sometimes insisting that all members see your point of view as the only viable one..
We can also ignore those comments or diaries that we personally find problems with.
I read your update spiderleaf and agree with it.
I think we need a discussion about how we discuss things on this site.
Anyway, that’s my 2 cents at the moment,
We can also ignore those comments or diaries that we personally find problems with.
Thank you diane101. I don’t watch Fox News b/c one of my friends compares seeing me watch it to a train wreck. I don’t read some diaries and comments b/c I know they’re going to offend and anger me. I have enough anger and offensiveness in my life — I don’t need any more.
We can’t control what other people say or do. We can only control our reactions. Sometimes we have to speak out and argue. Other times, silence is the best message. I’ve found that many people pipe down really quickly when they don’t get a rise out of people. (Not that I’m suggesting that’s what anyone here is doing, because I don’t believe that.)
thank you also for expounding on my thoughts which I have been struggling with expressing.
I have found in the last several weeks that I will write a comment to something or other and then on reflection delete it, cautious about my words or unable to find the “perfect” words. Choosing often to say nothing rather than to get in between an argument and chancing furthering it. This was not always so with me on the site.
This diary itself I wrote 5 comments before I posted one.
I like your point about ‘no response’ cools the author off rather quickly.
I don’t have the answers that’s for sure, I just have the questions.
You are not alone in the composing of comments and deleting them unposted lately…
perhaps I should have taken that advice… nah, I’m too stubborn for that… 😉
this is the debate we should be having…..why we feel uncomfortable posting lately….
That used to be the complaint at the other place and a big reason why we came here, cause we felt comfortable to express our views in a non combative, “for the most” part, environment.
Wonder if I will post this one? Lol
That’s why I usually hang out in the FBC, safer there.
I too have felt a little careful about making comments in certain diaries here lately. And as someone who never had the nerve to sign up at Kos, that worries me. But I also think that as topics get complex and nuanced, its hard to express yourself fully without writing a long tome. Its so easy in this medium to be misunderstood. I try really hard to be as clear as I can and to own my thoughts, feelings and opinions as mine rather than assuming things about others. I get really uncomfortable with assigning motives to others when we really don’t know them. On the other hand, when someone’s words have been disrespectful, its important to let them know that this is how they have affected you. So, here you see me trying to sort out the complex reactions that are just a part of my small world.
the words respectful here are key I think, when we deviate out of ‘respect’ into name calling and personal attacks we lower the tolerance level.
Who will write a diary about what we want this site to be, we have had them in the past and they were quite helpful, time again for one.
I just posted a diary to discuss “why we came to booman, care to join me over there anyone!
I’m careful about posting comments but it’s because I want to be as precise as I can be about saying what I want to say. And the reason I want to be precise is because I respect my fellow posters here and because I believe our conversations are important, not because I’m afraid of being poorly received, and not because I’m afraid of stirring up controversy.
Maybe I’m just lucky, but for me it’s no more complicated than that. I redo lots of stuff I write here, sometimes eliminating those long tortured run-on sentences and the often times obscure leaps of logic, and then again sometimes the re-write creates those long sentences and fractured rationale. Either way it’s great fun, and I am certain if I say things others disapprove of I’ll get flack for it.
I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I, for one, have noticed your relative quiet lately, and I hope that you feel comfortable with changing that sometime.
we can all have a discussion about what “don’t be a prick”, the moto of the site, really means to us,
Here’s what it means to me:
Don’t be a prick for a sustained period of time, over multiple diaries/comments and in the face of community encouragement to refine your tone and/or behaviour.
We are all going to be a prick at one time or another, that is not really avoidable. What we learn from our prickishness is what is important to me.
There are two rules of the site. The second one doesn’t have an official snappy summary like “don’t be a prick”, but Boo’s post (as reposted by SusanHu recently) clearly lays out another rule, even before the ‘prick’ rule. “We have no sacred cows” is just my shorthand for it. In long form it declares that non-Democratic-Party and world opinions are welcome here, and lays out the argument that we are free to disagree on many topics.
Above, a couple commenters suggest that as this site has grown, the discussion has gotten more irrelevant/wrong (signal-to-noise). But that suggests that there are topics which are “on-topic” (signal) and topics which are “off-topic” (noise). Now that sure seems like some individuals are trying to fence off their own private sacred cows.
Then there is the prick rule, which I fear some people are trying to extend to topics and lines of thought, not just the behavior of individuals. Again, that would be bad — it would be creating defacto sacred cows.
Remember: This is a community — not a reflection on one’s self
Things will happen here that one will disagree with. That’s fine. Jump in, comment, and try to redirect the conversation. Ignore it and walk away. But unless its directed personally at you (directly or veiled), why take it personally? In my understanding, its the personal element that distinguishes ‘prickishness’ from mere ‘annoyance’.
The community recommended that diary. The community discussed it. Not everyone in the community cared for the topic or discussed it. Of the folks who posted to it, most were very passionate about their positions.
Spiderleaf, stay, go, I simply don’t care what you do.
I find it distasteful whenever someone stands up and says “unless you all speak out to reassure me that you support my position, I’m leaving”. I find it divisive when its “denounce what those folks said, and agree with me, or I’m leaving”. But either way, its throwing down an ultimatum — define this place the way I see it, or else I’m leaving.
Bah.
I’d hate for the thought-police mentality to reign here. That’d utterly destroy rule #2. If the price of maintaining rule #2 is the loss of Spiderleaf or others, its a price I’m willing to pay.*
I’m not so willing to pay the alternative (give up rule #2), and I’m disappointed there is even a possibility that someone has in effect asked this community to do so.
* (of course, I’d be pleased as punch if spiderleaf stayed. But that’s spiderleaf’s choice, just as announcing GBCW was spiderleaf’s choice, and all the rest of this diary was spiderleaf’s choice. If staying is conditional on denouncing someone else’s position, well, I’m certainly not willing to do so.)
You misinterpret my motivation in posting this. I was upset. It does affect me personally, I have friends and family who have served in the military. Who served in WWII and as peacekeepers in the Canadian military.
I am not trying to shut anyone up. Far from it. Yesterday the community spoke and recommended that diary. And today I had my turn. Some agree with me, some don’t. But it was a discussion I wanted to have. And others seem to agree with me as this diary is now recommended. Yes, I said I would stay on if we as a community decided to be respectful of each other again. And I mean that. If others care, great. If they don’t, as you don’t, that’s fine too. But my feelings as to what it means to be a liberal and to treat people with the respect I would expect for myself is my sacred cow. I don’t see how insulting members of this community and calling them murderers is a liberal trait. Nor one I would want in my daily life. Do I think Stu or Ductape don’t have a right to say that? Not at all. But it would be nice if those of us who care, recognize that type of language seeks to drive wedges vs. build movements.
(thanks for saying you’d be happy if I stuck around tho’, I appreciate it 😉
I would be happy if you stuck around. I love the diversity of opinions here, and you’re a part of that. So are Ductape and Stu Piddy, and Parker, and all the more “controversial” personalities.
My Dad was a Seabee in Viet Nam. My Grandfather was in the Navy in WWII fighting the Japanese.
I took no offense from what I read yesterday. You did. Heck, the most offensive thing to me in the diary yesterday was the notion the only “proper” way to oppose the war was to stop paying taxes. Ahem. That kind of ignores the fact we’re borrowing all the money to pay for this war, but then who’s counting.
I read the diary as “Fuck the troops — no more blind support that what they’re doing is good and honorable and noble”. Taken that way, it would be hard for me to disagree. No one gets a free pass for being a member of a group in my book.
(if I may presume here, and apologies if I get it wrong) You took it as “Fuck the troops — they’re all equally guilty of all the horrible war crimes”. Taken literally, that’d be a bit much for me to swallow too. You rejected that, and seem a bit upset that more people here didn’t.
But then, what do I know.
Dad won’t even talk about Vietnam. He did let out that he trained some of the SEALs (or their predecessors) on underwater demolitions. Is it possible that that training led directly to civilian deaths? I suppose so. Is it possible that he broke bread with guys recounting tales of attrocities they committed in-country? Is he is some way complicit with the acts of evil that occur in all wars, let alone the really messed up ones with no clear way of winning like Iraq and Vietnam?
I doubt I’ll ever know. If this topic had been about Vietnam and not Iraq, would Ductape and Stu have been accusing my Dad of these atrocities? I guess so. Would I have taken that personally? No.
Grandpa didn’t start talking about WWII until he was in his 70’s. When he finally did, he wasn’t apologetic about it, but he wasn’t proud of it either. He figured his kids and grandkids needed to know the truth, because there weren’t many of his generation left to tell the truth anymore. He talked of long days of nothing interrupted by brief periods of sheer hell. He spoke of things that could be considered atrocities. He told stories of guys putting the decapitated heads of Japanese soldiers on poles on their ships or landing craft. War is hell, and not for the squeamish.
So, do I discount his noble service in protecting us from the original axis of evil? Do I condemn him for not opposing the madness? No, war is hell, and any time we put troops out on the field of battle, these are the consequences.
So there’s a snapshot of the “good war”, and the bad one. No more relevant than any other, but one all the same. Canadian peacekeepers? Didn’t they have to admit to a nasty little rape problem not too long ago?
No armed force in the world is perfect or moral. These are men and women who are asked to go into the situations that define inhumanity and do what is needed to get the job done. Its only worse when the orders preclude victory (see Iraq and Vietnam) — because the situation leads to more frustration for a longer period of time.
We know for a fact that troops in Iraq are in an awful bind. The few who have come forward with abuse allegations have had to do so around their chain of command. Its obvious the abuse is widespread, so why are so few risking their careers (or their lives?) to let us know? Why aren’t more not simply ‘refusing orders’, but actively working outside the system to inform the press of a major failing in govt, the way any stateside whistleblower could and should? Probably because the stakes are higher.
Its not insulting to call a spade a spade, no matter how distasteful.
Some of our troops, on our behalf, are over there committing war crimes. Some are killing innocent civilians, sometimes just for the hell of it. Some of them are murderers.
My immediate family line is made up of men who have killed in war. One war was necessary to provide freedom to the people of this planet. One war was conducted for political and ideological gain. My cousin was in the first gulf war as a nurse, and he’ll never be ‘normal’ again.
I choose to support our troops — not by demanding they be treated like angels, not by excusing the things they have seen or done, not by imposing any comforting myth on them simply for belonging to an organization which exists to protect my freedoms by the acts of death and destruction against those we would call enemies.
I support our troops by acknowledging that war is sometimes necessary, but never, ever, “good”. When we go to war, we create the conditions that we despise. Our troops have to live with the immediate effects. We have to live with the consequences of what we’ve done to them, and what they’ve done in our behalf.
As I said earlier, I could have posted that in the discussion yesterday, rather than interjecting it here. But since you implied that insulting the troops was the same as insulting members here who were troops themselves, or had friends and family who were, I thought I’d give you some background that puts me in that category myself.
Blind faith in our troops doesn’t support them.
Your last sentence bugs me tho,
I’d feel offended if I thought you were implying that somehow I don’t care about the troops, simply because I acknowledge the realities of war.
Hugging a soldier and telling him he’s wonderful and noble is all well and good. I’m sure many of them are. I’m sure there are tons of them who’ve never committed an atrocity, never witnessed an atrocity, never broke bread with those who talked about committing or witnessing an atrocity, and never ever heard a story of someone in their unit, their country’s armed forces, or their theater of war who committed an atrocity.
But many of them also know what’s going on. They have to live with what they know, or heaven forbid what they’ve participated in. To deny the truth of what they know to be true is to ask them to shut up and pretend it didn’t happen — to protect our beautiful imagery of the noble soldier who does no wrong.
We sent them to war. In Iraq, we sent them to a war they weren’t equipped to win, with no honest plan for winning, and with nothing but hopes and good wishes that they’d win and come home soon.
I have no problem with folks reminding us of what the troops have done on our behalf, because of our short-sightedness and blind faith in our unworthy leaders. None of this should have been a surprise to any of us — certainly not if they knew troops who felt loved/cared for/respected enough to share with us what we’ve asked them to do (as a nation) for us before.
The last damn thing I’m worried about is ‘building movements’ based on ignoring honest truths and facts.
I’m sorry if some folks here feel attacked because they’re blamed for what our leaders did, even as they opposed those leaders. I’m sorry if some folks here feel attacked because they’re blamed for what what our troops are doing.
In the end, the truth remains:
But I take that last statement not as a literal indictment, but as a call to stand up and fight for change. Its our responsibility to do what we can to fix the situation.
Therein lies the crux of our different reactions to the diary yesterday, spiderleaf.
You saw an attack on our community, as if what has happened is our community’s fault. As if we were murderers just because some rare few soldiers are.
I saw an attack on our people, and a call to energize our community as to the stakes involved. War involves the death and murder of innocent civilians. Always has. Anytime we go to war, we’re accepting this as a natural consequence. But that doesn’t prevent the murders, it only excuses them as “necessary”. We naturally accept this because its part and parcel of war.
In the end, we’re both looking for a movement — to fix this mess.
Some of us want to skip ahead to the “how do we come to gether to fix this” stage. Others want to go through the “what is wrong, what needs to be fixed, and why does it need fixing” stages. In the end, we want the same thing.
But we alone can’t stop this war. That’s the sad truth. Only by energizing others can we hope to stop this war. And in order to do that, I’m afraid we’re going to have to go through more of the stages. Some people fear the ugly truth of war, and for them the less we have to examine war to end war, the better. Others relish every awful detail, and would bring us through them simply on principle. But in the end, we need to go through as many stages as it takes to get the support needed to end this war.
Me, I’ll err on the side of too much rather than too little. The important thing is to stop the atrocities, isn’t it?
war is legal, just or had any merit when it was perpetuated upon the Iraqi’s and American people.
I will not use illegal means to attempt to overthrow my government as long as there are legal ethical ways to acheive regime change.
That the current government of the US is without a doubt in my mind a criminal enterprise solely in place to enhance the profits of the military/industrial complex causes me great pain for my country and the rest of the world.
I will however not allow an reichwinger to call me a traitor to the US and I will never allow anyone to call me a war criminal for the wrongs perpetuated upon the world, as long as I am diligently working to correct those wrongs.
My family and friends who are in Iraq are kind, loving, generous and giving people who are doing the best they can in a situation that they have little control over right now in their lives. My cousins have already been to MAST for telling their officers that what they are doing is not right and refusing to follow a direct order. Their mother a life long republican has denounced her party affliation and has joined the Independent party.
She is doing everything in her power to facilitate change in our country.
I don’t need some asshats to vilify me and mine because they hate all americans and america. I have worked my ass off to come from a place of living hell in my life to a place where I can offer help and guidance in trying to make change occur in my country.
I give in many ways, from walking drug addicted babies in a childrens hospital to working with HIV infected people to being politically active. I don’t hear much from the two people who attacked my family members and friends for being in the military, about what they are doing to try to change the world into a better place for all of us.
If the time comes and the fascists in power in my country succeed in denying me access to the political process, then and only then will I offer up myself to do everything I can to bring them down in whatever way is necessary. Until such time, if you can’t offer positive solutions to the growing list of problems that face the world, not just from the US, I suggest you take a long hard look at yourself and ask what is that I am trying to accomplish.
I will reiterate once again, I may disagree vehemently with what you have to say, but I and many of my family and friends have placed their lives in the military so you could have the right to say it.
Thanks ghostdancer… I was thinking of you when I wrote this. And of Recordkeeper, and Shadowthief… and InfidelPig.
Good people all. And people I am proud to call my friends.
Namaste.
you see, I am still here,
I will post my reply to the recent happenings here, in a day or so, first I must feed the good one, to control the bad one ; )
I count myself amongst those who will be waiting patiently for your wisdom!!!
I try not to allow the opinions and commentary of people I disagree with or find offensive derail me from engaging in an appreciating the positive aspects of whatever millieu these distasteful remarks appear in. (Mind you, I’m not saying I regard either of the 2 persons mentioned disparagingly in this diary as inimical to the value of the discourse on this site at all.)
For me, if there aren’t voices in my world that I disgaree with I know I’m close to being in a state of stagnation. I welcome diverse and opposing views because I welcome the chance to learn, and I welcome the opportunity to engage in such a way that I too must more clearly understand and be able to express my own perspectives.
I find the interaction and the discourse on this site enormously enriching, and it’s enriching because we’re engaged, and because there’s room for opposing views and the opportunity to debate them in an open forum. I know I have perspectives myself that some disagree with here, but why would that be a problem for anyone? It’s a chance to deepen our own understanding and to engage with each other in an attempt to clearly explore and define our own perspective. If we’re preaching to the choir all the time, we all tend to lose that edge, that challenge that requires us to fully examine and flesh out our own positions.
Last but not least, if I found myself egregiously offended by someone’s remarks here I’d call them on it. Leaving the site in protest just gives the commenter you object to power over you, and that’s always a losing proposition.
IMHO.
yes, that’s why I reconsidered.
In terms of opinions that differ, or others disagree with, not a problem. But calling them morons, or saying they support torture goes beyond normal and healthy discourse imo.
I agree, but even abnormal or unhealthy discourse has relevance sometimes. After all, we do monitor the mainsream wingnuts in order to see what they’re up to and where their various propaganda efforts are leading.
I didn’t read the particular bits of writing you referred to inyour diary here, but regardless, I understood and identified with the substance of what you were saying. I too have little patience with people when I perceive them to be gratuitously insulting and bashing others without demonstrating the details of their reasoning for doing so.
I’ve appreciated your commentary on this site quite frequently and I think we’d all be poorer for your departure, and especially poorer if you were to leave over this kind of isolated and emotionally charged event.
Hopefully you’ll be back in the business of eloquently speaking your mind without getting throw off the rails by others remarks.
I missed whatever it is that Ductape said that upset you but I saw Stu Piddy’s diary title and took one glance at the content and then moved on to the next diary. I don’t find stuff like that useful or helpful in anyway. Sometimes I allow myself to get drawn in and make comments but mostly I try to just walk right by them and move to the one’s that are about taking positive action.
Generalizations are always wrong. “The Military,” “The Democrats,” “The Republicans,” “Christians,” “Muslims,” “Jews,” “Blacks,” “White People,” “Red Staters,” “Blue Staters,” “Cops,” “Criminals,” “Lawyers,” blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
It is hard not to use such generalizations and it is difficult to come up with alternatives that don’t go on at great length to simply get past the definition and it is difficult to use the generalized terms with disclaimers that recognize the fallacy of generalized terms without the disclaimers running on and on and on kinda lilke this sentence.
I took one look at Stu Piddy’s title and opening content and thought to myself “Great. Let’s give the right wing exactly what they need to scream at us… ‘Look! See! Those damn libruls HATE America! Hate the troops! Blame America first!'”
And all that other bilgewater they tend to spew.
I try very hard to make it clear that it is the Republican leadership that I despise and not Republicans. Most of the Republicans I know are good and decent people and aren’t that much different from me. Most… not all.
Likewise, most on the left are like me (and them) as well. Most… not all. I find that some of my friends on the left don’t think before they act or speak. Don’t have a firm grip on what can really be accomplished or, perhaps more accurately, don’t understand that changes comes in small steps and that if you want to get to the ideal you have to take the small steps it takes to get there. Radical, over night, change rarely ever lasts. Radical change happens and then gets just as radically changed back again 99.999% of the time. The American Revolution is one of the only times a radical change occurred that lasted. A review of history however will show that there were lots and lots of baby steps that lead up to that point creating the groundwork for lasting change.
Hate sucks.
Bigotry sucks.
From any person or group of people towards any person or group of people.
The feeling is understandable at times but it is a destructive one. It does us no good to replace their hate with ours.
Peace,
Andrew
Right on needed to be said. Good post Spider I enjoy your writing. To be honest I’d like to believe in the nation and what I think we stand for in the long run. All great and powerful nations have blood on their hands. If you didn’t you would have never attained great and powerful status. The present war in Iraq is so stupid and brutal that we question what our policies are now, but not what the constitution and the Bill of Rights are about. Ummm no matter where the original ideas behind those documents first was heard or written. Its damn cool of us to have adopted the ideas. I know its frustrating to watch radical demagogues bash the country but the radicals are a part of the cure to the neocon disease.
Wow. Sorry ’bout that. I typed it with formatting and paragraph breaks. Perhaps it jammed up together because I was still set on html format from the photo fair instead of auto format.
Hmmmm.
I distinguish between the need to support our troops and the need to call them on atrocities that are being committed on a daily basis. Do we support them to commit these atrocities?
Of course not. But we do ultimately zero in on the leaders who are creating the conditions in which these atrocities can be committed.
In the I ching, book of changes, hexagram 30, the 6th changing line: spare the followers and punish the leaders.
That said, we need to call to light the atrocities so that we can know what how our leaders are directing the troops.
Very true.
And absolutely necessary.
But not all commit the atrocities.
.
You cannot seriously define BooMan’s Place by a few diaries written by DTF and/or Stu Piddy. This site has been very fortunate to grow with the influx of 500-600 kossacks early June. Very active bloggers, heart in the right place and very vocal. Not all have stayed since then, but that cannot be expected.
Many BooTribers have logged on, perhaps contribute seldom, but their value is in supporting the site. Readers are very worthwhile, we all write to participate in a debate and/or convey a message. IMHO the personality of the site is directed by a single person: BooMan with his stories, comments and emails of reprimands or a pat on the back.
I appreciate the creativity and activism on the site. I don’t pretend to read all diaries, two months ago that may have been possible, so automatically I make a selection on topic and/or author. Sometimes I am up upset with content, but I consider it personal and move on. For extreme remarks, you’ll find in me an advisary through comments, fortunately weeks pass before such incidents occur.
I found and find the presence of U.S. forces in Iraq very disturbing, they are fighting an unjust war, no legality and commit a series of war crimes: Abu Ghraib, twice Fallujah, present operations in central Iraq and in the Euphrates river valley. Most shooting incidents at road blocks have been mistakes, killing complete families, parents and children. There is ample reasoning the U.S. government is seen as a rogue state, a bully and in violation of International Law. So the persons at BooMan’s fuming against U.S. occupation get a lot of leeway when they write up their diaries.
Sometimes, to see how Bush’s majority is doing, I read the blogs of right-wingers or hit the evangelical brimstone and fire sites. That doesn’t last very long, and I am happy to compensate with some anti-venom from DTF and Stu Piddy. The crimes committed against personal freedom within the U.S., gay community, minorities, election fraude and/or sabotage of the voter registrations across the nation, the venom of the SBVT actions, Karl Rove, VP Cheney and Rumsfeld, Perle, Negroponte, Wolfowitz, Bolton, Wiers, etc are a disgrace for a nation calling itself a democracy with cultural and moral values.
The energy spend on open-ended dKos discussions or internal strife within a blog community, or on the Democratic party with no goal or purpose in mind, I normally avoid, as I find it overexposing an issue not worthy of causing more anguish and division.
The standard for being a prick is very high, and luckily we have no trolls – except one recently – and no rating wars. I say count your blessings of the community, contribute, perhaps be a bit selective as the site grows, but hurt feelings should heal and the issues seen in perspective.
The number of responses and comments in this diary reflects our appreciation for you spiderleaf and the love that exists within BooMan’s Place for all sorts of God’s creatures, human kind included, but I do love in particular frogs, fish, raccoons, dogs, cats, bears, wolves, etc, etc.
Choice is easy for me to stay at BooMan’s, because dKos bans me anyway … LOL
▼ ▼ ▼
Very nice comment Qui, thanks for that contribution and for all of your contributions to the site.
Thanks Oui. Not defining, turning the opinions around to shine some light on others perspectives. To open the channels of debate. To hopefully make the community think… not necessarily agree, but at least recognize that tone and generalizations don’t advance the debate.
I am anti-war. Anti-torture. Anti-imperialism. Anti-neo-cons. Anti-corporatism. Anti-administration. But I am also anti-all of that when perpetrated by any other country on earth. And can recognize that not all who serve in the military, or who were born American, are inherently evil and corrupt.
And I’m glad we are talking about it. No matter the point of view one holds. Rational discussion is good.
about America and Americans. We are an inherently evil culture with no redeeming value in any way shape of form. We have done nothing but demean, dehumanize and terrorize the world since its very existence 200 plus years ago.
So I should make sure that I destroy my children so they can no longer pollute the gene pool with our insidious evil and then America should point all its nuclear weapons upon itself and destroy ourselves because we are an egregiously evil empire building nation, whom not one single member of our society has any redeeming qualities.
There ductape, that should ease your discomfort about our evil nation. We will self destruct upon your oh so great command of our culture because you have deemed an entire nation is evil and not one of us is worthy to be called a citizen of the world.
You are no better than that asshat in the white house and the rest of the bigotted piehole maggots that infested my government.
There are many many people in the country that are fighting against these madmen. I know many americans who have stepped up to the powers that be in my nation and have called them madmen and criminals. But in your illustrious estimation the entire nation of the US is little more than an shithouse full of evil intentions who will never be more than just an imperialist nation who craves only world domination.
That is not what I seek for my childrens world. I seek a world where all children are given adequate food, shelter, clean water, education and an opportunity to grow and expound the many wonders of our world. But you indict me and many like me for being inadequate to the task of changing the political culture of our nation. So I guess ductape fatwa the great and powerful seer of all that is good in the world has deemed the US a slimy insidious disease that must be destroyed and kill everything, even the good tissue because ductape fatwa has deemed that we can never chance that the evil US can ever again rise and cause all the troubles of the world once again.
I feel sorry for you, if it wasn’t the US, I am sure you would find another monster to slay.
But surely, even Ductape and Stu would not advocate the massive destruction of our country. The only thing they would destroy is our sumg sense of superiority when it comes from dealing with other nations and Native Americans, if I read them rightly.
One of the things that Kevin Benderman wrote that really struck me to the quick was about how he had attended some of the “no bullying” talks at his children’s school, and he really got into it all….the whole negotiating and respecting everybody for the individual that they are. Then Iraq kicked off and everything that happened over there seemed to be directly the opposite of what he experienced that we want to teach our children in our schools so that we don’t perpetuate violence in our communities and have Columbines haunting us daily. In Vietnam we learned a lot about the damage that violence does spiritually and soulfully to people, not just the violated either….but also the violators. As far as Iraq is concerned we were lied to and abused and I do not know for sure when we will bring our soldiers home, I just know that each passing day feels like another day that I lost my personal fight. Every soldier who dies is one more that we didn’t get home and I lost that too, every day that passes is another day when somebody some place experienced an atrocity in Iraq based on horrible lies betrayal and they will never be the same again. When I experience our soldiers breaking down to the degree that they were shown to have broken down in that CNN footage, that is what I fight against every single day inside and outside. Please know that all of those soldiers at one time functioned in this society very well. The military hasn’t taken in the jailbirds for a long time now, and those soldiers were at one time very functional Americans. I disagree with you too Boo about the getting arrested thing. Our soldiers feel betrayed and they feel abandoned. People fight about the lies and people fight about whether to judge or not judge them as they walk on this fire from hell, but who fights for them? Who at their lowest point can they point to and say, “Well, at least you fought for me and gave me a reason to not give up on the whole species!” Corporations, ideas, strategies, political parties, elections, all very wonderful things but they aren’t living breathing entities. Our soldiers are living beings and all of the listed above have been devised to serve those that feel and those that bleed and those that die. None of these things are serving our soldiers and our soldiers are in pain right now…..they are in so much pain that they have had to numb themselves to survive and blowing the fuck out of some house and having dead limp babies emerge while it appears to not even affect them is a warning to all of us!
Trying to control others is like herding cats: can’t be done.
Expressing my dissenting opinon clearly and openly is good for me.
Letting go of an issue after I’ve done so, is VERY good for me.
Looking for ways I can counterbalance what I view as negative makes me feel productive.
Remember that when I genersalize, I almost always piss someone off, which diverts attention from my message.
Not expecting perfection, from myself or anyone else.
Let go of what I cannot change.
Put my energy om what I can.
Remember for every piece of ugliness in this world, there are thousands of pieces of beauty.
In the end, we are all more alike than we are different.
Peace to all my relations.
“We aren’t cool with attacks on African American’s, Jews, Gays, Women, so why are we blanketly accepting attacks on those who are in uniform?”
One does not chose the former, one certainly does chose the latter . . . it’s an all volunteer Army, donchaknow . . .
“Does it make someone a murderer because they were poor, had few options and decided to enlist to get a college degree and hopefully a better life?”
If your route to a “better life” is to go to foreign lands and break things and kill people (and one would have to be brain dead not to understand that’s what volunteering for George Bush’s Army means) then why not just be a mugger and do your killing here in America? The moral difference is what ? ? ?
It has been a long, long time since the last time the US Army (or Marines) could lay credible claim to “defending America” . . . arguably the last time was the Indian Wars (for those who believe Pearl Harbor was provoked), and the Indian Wars were not a particularly honorable endeavor . . .
When Bush and his gang of StormTroopers come to relocate you to the nearest work camp. I dont think the soldiers will have much sympathy that you tried to defend them here. Maybe it will work.
So you are back under a different name, what is your purpose exactly? Can you go and try Daily Kos for example or anther site, you might like it there. We don’t seem to measure up for you here. Do you enjoy this?
it looks like I have made some new friends here at bootrib. I love all the attention I’m getting… so many 1 ratings…
interesting and childish. grow up you guys & get over yourselves.
I didn’t quite know how to respond to your diary when it was first posted. Over the course since you first posted, I have read the various posts of dismay, anger, sorrow, accusation, history, affirmation, love, and yes, stubbornness and bull-headedness. And your update.
We are quite a group. I came here a bit before the Pie Wars, and have noted the changes over time. I’ve never been a diarist, no time to do urgent stuff. And generally I have to watch my fine Irish temper. I’ve always liked Harry Truman’s practice of writing the angry, vitriolic letter and tearing it up in the morning. I do sometimes even work on what I post as comments – the level of discourse is high, which is part of the exciting thing about being part of this community.
Frankly, I hate interchanges of disagreement that gradually – or suddenly – become angry, ad hominem statements. That’s what my office mate used to call “testosterone poisoning”, because it seems more a male thing than a female thing. (There is some research that backs that up as a style of arguing, not that it’s caused by excess testosterone.)
Those two rules we have here: 1. Don’t be a prick. and 2. No sacred cows.
Well, while I like those rules, they both have problems. Your definition of what is a “prick”, and mine, and Ductape’s, likely differ a bit. That can cause some difficulty, but I don’t think that is the major issue.
It is the second rule. Yes, I do think we have some sacred cows here – I have them also. Most if not every last one of us here is opposed to the war in Iraq. (Is there someone here in favor of the war in Iraq? who would admit it??). However, we like to speak in support of the men and women who are in Iraq, especially those with family members who are opposed to the war, or who have family members suffering because their loved ones are in Iraq, or who are soldiers who are against the war, or who are wounded or killed in the war, or who are in the National Guard, or who joined up mostly to get a college education, or who had no other job prospects. . .
We don’t like to make or hear criticisms of those folks. Thus, when we do see or hear those people lumped together with persons who are hot-to-go about this war, we get very very upset. It particularly touches upon that criticism that we hear so much from the other side: that the Repubs keep casting about, that we are unpatriotic, that we do not love our country, or care for what happens to our soldiers, etc.
Our sacred cow is to be joined together in the struggle to express our concern for the individuals who are there in Iraq, but damaged by it terribly, while being against the collective action represented by the government. We want to, and do act and think of the individual separated from the group, as Cindy Sheehan is.
Other people, possibly because they might have a more collective view rather than an American’s very individualistic view, see this separation of the individual from the group, and individual motives from the group action of which the individual is a part, as artificial. And that’s the heart of real discomfort for many of us, including myself, as it hits one of my (and I think our) sacred cows.
I think another of our sacred cows is to be always thought of as not our government, since we did not elect this government. But others see that we did – we just cast our votes for someone else. We participated in the process, we did not stand outside of the process. We are accustomed to being welcomed and thought of as not our government – even though this idea has been a big part of republican indoctrination over many many decades now. Others don’t see this differentiation.They see, for example, that we watched TV while people in New Orleans suffered, yet we did not march down there for a confrontation. We expected the government to go. Looking back on it, I think this opinion, which 4 different students of mine, all of foreign birth expressed to me, were very thought-provoking. They were right, I think, to wonder about this. I certainly did and do feel guilty. Zing. One of my own sacred cows was stepped on, at least.
The good thing, however, is that I don’t see folks like Ductape actually buying such an absolutist view of Americans, or he would not be writing with a group of mostly U.S. and Canadian types here (and thank you, Canadians, for having a gov with the wisdom not to get into this Iraq war mess that Bush and minions have sprouted in the world.) He is, however, pushing at our unacknowledged sacred cows.
Now, I apologize if these words are offensive. And I apologize for using Ductape as my only named example – DF, that’s not personal, I just remember your name always, as I do spiderleaf’s. I do not like to offend others unless, of course, it is our unlovely and warped national leadership.
I do thank you, and all of the commentors for giving me a day of thoughtfulness about this and more of how and why membership in this community is very very important to me. There is not one diarist here I would like to see drop out of the pond, nor would I like it to succumb to being a mud bath (pun not originally intended, but I’ll leave it there). I hope you will stay, spiderleaf. You are so valuable to our process.
Namely, the world’s perception of the American people versus its government.
Traditionally, there has been a separation. People will say, oh I don’t have a problem with Americans, but their government now….
It is true that there has been something of a sea change, there was some surprise at the complacency with which the nation that claims to be such a great democracy accepted the transition to having a symbolic figurehead appointed by a judicial body, as opposed to an election, and the 911 events and sequelae, and again, US public sentiment, along with increased availability of information I mentioned elsewhere, have all combined to change that distinction.
And I am very glad you brought up your non-American students’ reaction to Operation Crescent Cleansing.
There are many people around the world who were shocked and awed by that, and still are. Not to mention terrified. As someone said to me in an email the other day, it is worse than the Gujarat massacres.
Which, some will recall, did spark some “unrest.”
There are, according to the Missing Children lady, now over 3000 child cleansees still unaccounted for.
And with the exception of the little piece I saw on of all places, Fox News tonight, the media has grown strangely silent on this subject, a few weeks ago, CNN had them up on the screen 24 hours a day, but has since realized that given the percentage who are likely already sold on the open market, realized it would be better for sponsors and viewer comfort alike to focus on other aspects of the Katrina story.
On a very emotional level, it goes beyond shock and awe. The best word to describe the feeling is a queasy combination of revulsion and terror.
We need the radicals like Stu, Ductape, and Galloway just like we need more Moderate people like you. We’re all on the same side. Our mutual goal is to create a society to make life better for all. Sometimes, radical thinkers are off the wall, but sometimes, they are the best news sources. And the minimum wage law, the 40-hour week, the end of child labour, and other such laws were all once radical ideas championed by anarchists, communists, and socialists.
We wouldn’t have had unions without the radicals.
but directed back at them…
hell, I’m a radical too… not nearly as moderate as you’re painting me out to be… 😉
like I keep saying, I just know enough to see some shades of grey, recognize all of humanity is fucked and not just american’s & that respecting each other and our diversity without painting all with a broad brush is the only way forward.
I appreciate your comments as always EH. good to see you.
i obviously missed some serious drama
now that’s funny Cedwyn… 🙂
you sure did… still some discussions on-going about all of this, but it’s been a really productive experience imo… diane’s “tell us” series, boo’s “american exceptionalism” posting, ghostdancers most recent, catnip’s most recent, whew… it’s been quite a few days…
I think I said somewhere up thread that if I knew then what I know now I should have probably just kept my big mouth shut… 😉
new and 1st quarter moons are all about introspection and all of this is bootrib’s inner musings i guess.
among the other traditions of halloween, it marks the pagan new year. which makes it the time for letting go of and saying good bye to the old and bringing the new influences into your life to take with you into the winter season.
which is another time of inner workings and ponderings and plannings.
so i’d say we’re moving right along bizactly on schedule!