So, I take a vacation and come back home to find a brouhaha going on here at the pond. That is to be expected from time to time in such politically charged times is it not? It was the opinions and philosophies of many that I thought I knew where they stood that took me by surprise.
I decided that I needed to go back and read FAQ to clarify in my own mind what the mission statement was for this site. I needed that to be clear as I was getting somewhat confused.
In Booman’s own words, for those of you that may have never read FAQ or simply have forgotten I will quote our esteemed host:
“This site is not affiliated with the Democratic Party. However, the Democratic Party is the only institution in this country that is capable of combatting the Bush administration’s agenda, or of offering a realistic alternative to the GOP’s control of both houses of Congress.
Therefore, this site is committed to building the Democratic Party, raising money for the Democratic Party and its candidates, finding and promoting promising candidates for state and local offices, helping to shape the Democratic Party’s agenda, and holding Democratic office holders to account for their votes and their ethics.
The site is also committed to doing some of the investigative work that is so desperately needed with the GOP in control of the oversight committees.”
Do we here have this common mission in mind? Can we agree to disagree of some issues? Can we find the common ground and work within the Democratic Party to make the changes needed to over throw what we are currently handed from the GOP?
In my ever so humble opinion the future of our country is at stake. The future our children and grandchildren will be straddled with. Can we work together for the betterment of the whole not just the democratic party but for all Americans? I believe we can and believe it is imperative to start now. We cannot afford to wait any longer. The ’06 and ’08 elections will be here before you know it.
Maybe this will help all of us get a better perspective of our makeup here.
Thanks, I too was away for a few days and was surprised at the commotion. Thanks for reminding us about the mission here. I suppose that neither of us should go away again, look at the result when we’re not here to control things. 😉
LOL…ain’t that the truth my friend.
Can we try to keep this up on the list? I am not one to beg for recommends but for the sake of the poll it would help to get a better perspective of where we all stand?
What was confusing you, Lee?
As most of you know, I am a little-i independent. While I understand many members here have a need to focus on Democratic Party politics, one of the main reasons I come here is that this site is more than that, or at least I saw it that way. As I posted in the Cafe last night, I may be here for the wrong reasons, I actually have very little interest in the inner machinations of party politics. At this point, I’m not sure I will even vote — except for Kinky.
Anyway, I hear your call and if the community decides that the focus should be narrowed, I will most likely go into lurk mode…
I haven’t ever seen you post Bill O’Reilly type talking points or act like Sean Hannity.
Thanks, CG, but this part
This site is not for the enforcement of any orthodoxy on its members
seems to be getting lost on some people who post here. It’s not the SITE, but members OF the site that are attempting to enforce orthodoxy, or at the very least dismiss all non-dem party discussion as irrelevant or “counter-productive”.
if you feel like someone is doing that it is always an effective response to quote from the FAQ.
K, I’ll try that next time…
I don’t believe that is true for one minute Bri. I believe that honest debate has always been welcome and do not for one minute believe anyone is trying to “enforce” anything. I can only speak for myself though. I missed all the back and forth this weekend.I tried to make that clear in the first paragraph and explained that that is to be expecyed. We are all not going to agree all the time. We are not a bunch of kool aid drinkers here.
Well, I’m certainly not going to argue with you about it. That is how I see it. If you don’t see it, you don’t.
Pretty much every time I post something in a diary that posters like paulucla see as “bashing the democratic party” or “talking about third parties”, either he or someone like him will come in post about “hurting the democratic party” or some other such.
I am not interested in toeing a party line, especially when that line is so fuzzy as to be incomprehensible — all I can do is look at what the Ds in office do and judge them as individuals, because even the ones who currently hold office don’t toe any line that I recognize.
Nobody is going to GUILT me into voting democratic by equating me with the GOP. Sorry, it ain’t gonna happen.
I think I see your point on this line of posts Bri. It is all a matter of perception to me. Ultimately, I stopped posting much a Kos because I perceived the place to be hostile. If you perceive that you cannot post what you want because people are going to disrespect what you say, that can effect your behavior. I have to say though, I rarely have gotten that perception here a Booman Tribune. It is the rare person who will confront you harshly, even on things you might know are over the top. Not to say people won’t share ideas. But for the most part is is pretty civil and that is good. For me at least. Anyway. I didn’t want to leave you hanging in this debate. Seeing you out there. Not feeling warm and fuzzy. You do not stand alone. We love you. I’m pretty sure I speak for everyone. Really. Dictatorly. I am feeling so Bush today.
Thanks, BostonJoe, I’m not sure that I have come to the place where I see BMT as “hostile”, but I do see that many of my assumptions and expectations for it may have been a bit off kilter, and this is not something that has changed in the SITE, per se, the FAQ and the “mission” have not been rewritten since I got here, but something has changed.
Maybe it is that I have come to expect things from certain posters, however unrealistically, becuase I felt that I had come to “know” them in some way, and that it is actually my perceptions that are changing and not anything else….I dunno. Not feeling warm and fuzzy though, that is the truth, and maybe that isn’t all bad.
I have been thinking about it for the past 3 days. A lot. No definitive conclusions as of yet.
If it helps — and I’m sure you have — check out Booman’s comments down below. Sounds like an affirmation of “I’m okay, you’re okay policy.” I just can’t wait until he actually issues the orders to take up arms and storm the DLC. 🙂 Hang in there. Things can only get better. Indictments are coming. Indictments are coming. (I will so be suicidal if the indictments are a pipe dream, but for now,) Indictments are coming.
I cannot speak for anyone else but for me it is not about hurting or not hurting the dems it is about THE WHOLE GD COUNTRY!!!! For the future of your kids. Do you really believe at this point in history voting I or L or anything other than Dem right now will do anything other than keep the repug criminals in power? Are we not just defeating ourselves? Do they third parties have enough votes to take over the houses? What is your solution if it is not to take that power away from the repugs?
Here is my take on that, since you ask. First, I don’t usually liked to be asked how I am going to vote. I mean it is obvious, because I share my opinions freely on the site. But, remember that old fashioned notion, when we didn’t even presume to ask someone how they would vote. That was quaint, wasn’t it. Second, I was born a Democrat, but they have lost my vote in several elections, because I’ve seen representatives that stopped supporting people, and started supporting corporations. Third, the reason I vote Green when the Democrat doesn’t support people, is not because I think it will usually elect a Green. It is because I would rather have a Republican in office screwing over people more overtly, than I would have a Democrat in office, twisting the knife into the little people’s back while trying to seem like a populist (and I despise the Republicans, but I despise hypocrisy even more). That’s not to say I don’t vote strategically, where called for. But, I am so much with Booman’s statement below. I want to drag the party back to the left. Because right now, we’ve got no party representing the people.
And something that really makes me flip, honestly, is when good Democrats start jumping up and down, belowing about how people like me are losing elections for them. As long as the Democratic party remains a relative tool of corporate money, which in my opinion, it is, in reality, then this is where I’m going to be.
Thanks for asking.
Ditto for me-you both beat me to it!
On a more serious topic, CG. I’ve got to go to my brothers this weekend. And, reading your recent cafe postings re: snobby beers, and it being a special occasion where I want to go all out, what beer would you recommend. (Remember. I am a pansy corporate beer drinking type, trying to expand my horizons. I like ambers — think they are called — light colored beers — yellow — and I need something national or regional enough that I can get it at finer distributors in Michigan — if you have time to fulfill such requests).
Come on over to the cafe, and I’ll come up with some ideas for you-
Hi Joe, I don’t know the background story to your comment above, so I probably shouldn’t jump in like this. . .but heck. . .you mentioned beer. ;^)
Sam Adams has a variety of different great beers. Around this time of year – entering into the holiday season – they package 6 packs, 12 packs and cases that include several different varieties in the same box. (lagers and ales and ambers and honey wheats, etc.) Just thought I’d share that, FWIW. (In the scheme of things, it sounds like a rather fun “problem” to be dealing with! :^)
Good day!
Me and the kids and all the cats like Fat Tire Ale….
I give you a 12 for that one, BostonJoe. You took the words right out of my mouth and off of my keyboard!
I am not saying how anyone should vote. I have voted all over the spectrum in years gone by. This is not years gone by for me. This is a matter of life and death. The life and death of freedom, rights and democracy as we have known it. I also am peeved beyond all belief at some of the votes of the dems and some of the silence that has hit us hard between the eyes. Sometimes though, silence says alot more than words. We are in a situation that will change the course of our history. I will fight these bastards tooth and nail. If I have to hold my nose for four more years to get that accomplished I will vote D.
I guess the bottom line for me is, I’m ready for the end of democracy as we’ve known it (or at least how I’ve known it in my lifetime — can’t speak outside of that) — it’s a shitty system, it’s broken and I believe that the ONLY way we are going to get back the rights that have been taken from us is when the effects start hitting a wider target.
If I believed even half-heartedly that holding my nose and voting dem. would make things better, I would do it. I just do not have that faith. If a super-duper brand-new candidate popped up around here running on a dem. ticket, I could go for it, but I haven’t seen hide nor hair of one — the Dem. running against Kay Bay is a corporate lawyer for chrissakes — this does NOT inspire great leaps of faith!
I’m not trying to tell you what to do either — I’m just trying to explain where I am coming from.
The problem with our system, as I see it, is that the power doesn’t lie with the elected — it lies behind them, the money-people THAT’S who hold the power and I can tell you that they don’t give a rat’s ASS what letter the person has behind their name, they will get ahold of them one way or another…
You’re not going to like it much, I’m sure, but here it is:
Firstly, I am not in any way convinced that too many things are going to change if we have a slight majority in either or both of the houses in congress. Maybe if we have that AND a democratic president, a bit of the damage of the previous 8 years will be undone, but I am not wholly convinced of this either — I think we have passed the point of no return with our current poltical system. It is hopelessly corrupted by corporations and power-mongers and changing the party affiliation in charge will do little to nothing to change that. The system is too entrenched and even good people with good intentions get sucked in and/or spit out.
Secondly, I firmly believe that, as a whole, Americans are too fat and comfortable, and will not wake up en masse until things really start to fall apart, and this is the part you’re really not going to like:
If my voting for and supporting third parties or independents, or abstaining from casting a vote, or putting my energy into community efforts, is what, in good conscience, I can do in roder to be the change I want to see, and the end result is more republicans in power, so be it.
I have been complicit too long in a system that guilts me into voting against my conscience, my interests in order to stave off the “worser evil” — I can’t do it anymore and I won’t. It is especailly painful to watch democrats that I supported completely betray me once in office….
And at the same time that I am doing all of that, I would NEVER presume to tell you who to support or where to cast your alligiance.
What I want to know if I am free to do at this site is to question that support and/or allegiance (heh, I spelled it two different ways and I’m not sure either of them is right!) in the face of the actions of democrats either in or running for office, and I would certainly like to know if I am free to express disgust with the entire system, because that is where I am — if that is “democrat-bashing” I would like to feel free to do it. If I can’t here, I will somewhere else.
We’re only hurting them if we don’t make our feelings about this known. Otherwise, the dem hierarchy will persist in the delusion that they can do whatever they want and we will vote for them anyway because we HAVE to. It is in their own best interest to learn (the hard way if necessary) that they you can not get support and votes by saying “Well yes, I’m diseased but it’s not nearly as bad a disease as one the other guy has.”
FWIW, I’ve openly discussed my non-Democratic political activities on this site, without any fallout whatsoever. (But, then again, maybe no one reads my posts ;^) Although I’ve been working from the ground up to build a viable third party in my state, my eyes are still focused on ousting the current occupants of the WH and each of their cronies. (And that supersedes any party affiliations I may have)
Some time ago, I mentioned my 2002 campaign work for a non-Dem candidate for governor. In response, a site member questioned why I hadn’t supported the Democratic nominee. I explained my perspectives, and that was that.
Heck, the passionate actions of some BT members recently motivated me to get me off my butt and re-engage in grassroots activities. Those activities just didn’t involve the entity of the Democratic party.
(But, then again, maybe no one reads my posts
Damn… you weren’t supposed to catch on… okay folks, plan B… you know the drill… 😉
as we all are and so there’s no possibility of that the community could decide to narrow the focus because that we mean we were telling ourselves to shut up — and I never do that.
Besides, in Diane’s “why we stay” thread, Limelite, Shirlstars, and I had a little confab of independents. And I’m sure that there are plenty more here and if you count the greens and the disaffected dems, we are certainly a reasonable number of users.
So don’t plan on lurker — we want you here LOUD AND PROUD!
I used to think I was too, lately, I’m not so sure. There have been about 4 diaries that I never posted about various things in the past few weeks, because I see the site moving more and more toward politics-only. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, and to be expected as the elections draw nearer, just that it is different from what I thought was going on before…I am fully willing to conced that I thought wrong! 😉
I don’t want to expend the energy to write and share things that will be discounted as irrelevant to “the mission”.
I don’t believe anyone wants this site to turn into a congregation of democrat dittoheads. The breadth of ideas and interests and the openness of other people to hearing those ideas are what makes this place really worthwhile.
So I’ll say it again — you are the community. If the day ever comes when that isn’t true, it will be my last day here.
Ditto from me.
I think the the increase of politics-only diaries has more to do with the influx of disaffected kossacks or purged kossacks. There, the emphasis is on politics, so those new members have brought those interests here.
That is not a bad thing, as we have a Senate race in 2006 and progressives need to figure out how to turn this boat around.
It is the FBC and other “personal” diaries that can draw this community together, so that we can feel comfortable talking about the tough issues. Perhaps, as people settle in, it is those personal links that will prevent flame-wars. Also, it is the personal aspect of this place that let you, Tracy, CG, Boo and others meet up in DC or Crawford. Once we progressives – whether Green, Democrat, or independent -make those contacts, it makes it a whole hell of a lot easier to plan actions that take us from our computers to the streets or public office, or wherever promoting a new vision.
The personal diaries are the ones that keep me coming back many many (many) times a day. I notice and read most of the political diaries and enjoy getting the different perspectives on them from people that I have grown to care about through their personal entries in the FBC and other “chatty” diaries.
If the personal diaries go, I’ll not come back here as often.
Ya, what she said, too.
Second Nature comes for the LOL’s and Snortage. 🙂
I come here to share AND learn. I have truly learned so much here. I’m in awe of you people!!!!!!!!
You guys help me make better, informed decisions and choices. You guys alert me to various going ons. You guys supported everyone to get off their asses and go march. You guys helps us all with writing letters and making calls.
Plus, I come for the community. It’s inclusiveness. We include, we don’t exclude. We share and learn. We are growing here in so many ways.
What is the bickering about?? I’m blonde… I haven’t a clue 🙂 JK.
Ok, I’m going to go see what RubDMC is doing and read the latest BostonJoe diary and see what JimStaro has for us to do today.
PEACE!!!! Diversity without division.
Yeah, where the heck are the LOL’s and snortage this morning? I miss them.
I just want to know what the heck is in the water this week.
truly the fact that my comment made you laugh made me laugh 🙂
I’m “busy” with the Alliance for a Better California diary… making calls and shit.
Plus I’m pissed off with Sears and had to call them. They called here TWICE last night with marketing calls – at 9:00 at night then got all rude about it. grrrr
My gosh! I thought all you brilliant stratagists and passionate defenders of truth and justice were/are/mightbe sick of my out of left field diaries about anything but the political. . .You mean. . .you want more of that? (insane laughter ensues)
Get ready then. . .I have some stuff to knock you right off your political thought processes. . .hehehehehe (rubs hands together gleefully).
I make no apologies, here they come.
Not a call so much Bri(as I think my title clearly states)as taking the temperature. Further on in the faqs Boo also clearly states that all are welcome here.
I was involved in one of the dustups prior to this current dustup (which I missed and don’t really know much about).
Given the stated theme/goals of the owner of this blog, it disturbs me that so many here are using it as a vehicle to attack Democrats and to promote the abandonment of the Democratic Party.
In my dustup, one of the regular contributors, and I believe a front-page contributor, implied that if everyone just ignored me, I would go away (apparently because I was similar to what they believed to be the dKos “tow the party line” type Democrat). Another contributor attacked me as a “thread troll,” whatever that is, because I had participated in two diaries written by the same author and made the point in both that it was unfair to attack all Democrats and unwise to abandon the party during these trying times.
I don’t see much difference between using this blog as a vehicle to promote third-parties and attack Democrats and using this blog as a vehicle to promote the GOP.
want to explain why they support the GOP in a thoughtful manner that doesn’t resort to bullshit talking points, they are welcome to do so. Another part of the faq states:
Yes. You are. Everyone is welcome at the site regardless of political self-identification. I don’t care how you are registered to vote, who you have voted for in the past, or who you plan to vote for in the future.
The only restriction on non-Democrats is that they be respectful of the mission of this site, that they don’t post Bill O’Reilly-like talking points, and that they don’t engage in trollish behavior.
If you are pro-life or anti-gun control, no one should down-rate your posts or make you feel unwelcome at this site, or in the Democratic Party. This site is not for the enforcement of any orthodoxy on its members. Principled disagreement is always allowed. Just don’t act like Sean Hannity and be an idiot.
Promoting abandonment of the Democratic Party, attacking ALL Democrats with the same broad brush, and seeking to organize to start up third-parties is “respectful of the mission of this site”?
so far — how can people “abandon” what they are not a part of in the first place?
I was talking about what the owner’s stated mission/theme for this blog is, not how the community members want to define it. If he wants this blog to be whatever the community wants it to be, that is, of course, his choice. I just think he should change his FAQ then. I’m not interested in participating in a blog that’s primarily about taking down the Democratic Party. But, I am interested in participating in a blog that discusses progressive politics and primarily focuses on regaining Democratic power and moving the Democratic Party to the left.
not the blog. It is the owner’s prerogative to allow or prohibit participation by individuals who are not devotees of a particular political party.
didn’t you promise to leave like … twice?
See, Boo. This is the kind of person that is driving your community right now. This is not “being a prick”?
the community. He’s one vocal member. And you’re right. He is being a prick.
He is one vocal members among a group of vocal members that are constantly bashing the Democratic Party and are using rhetoric like you just observed.
sorry Booman, but lecturing little ward heelers using PR push-polling techniques in thread after thread after thread piss me off. If I want that, I can go read threads at that other place and look for comments by DHinMI or Biminicat. I hate that this lecturing is showing up in a place that has such a vigorous give-and-take.
Conformity is what killed the Democratic majority, not vigorous dissent.
You and your group constantly atribute positions to me that I have never taken. The last thing I advocate is “conformity” within the Democratic Party. I want VIGOROUS discussion on what the Democratic Party is and should be about, its power structure, how best to beat the Reps, etc. What I’m not interested in constantly reading about is that the Democratic Party is a lost cause that should be abandoned in favor of third parties.
“vigorous debate” unless we call for something you call “far left”.
ONCE AGAIN, you attribute a position to me that I did not take. The debate should go as far left as anyone wants it to go, but should take place within the Democratic Party if you care at all what the GOP is doing to this country.
should take place within the Democratic Party
I do not agree with this, not that I would tell anyone ELSE not to, but I will not. If you can’t abide the kinds of discussions that take place OUTSIDE of the democratic party, then don’t participate, but saying that those of us who DO don’t care about what is going on with the country is insulting IN THE EXTREME. And don’t tell me that I am ascribing something to you that you didn’t say, it is right there in your post.
This debate reminds me very much of the arguments I heard bandied about in the early 80s between SPD adherents and those bent on founding a 4th party (today known as the Greens).
The SPD lost that debate. A sizable portion of the youngest, most progressive membership felt that the SPD was not representing their concerns on the two most important issues of the day (arms escalation and the environment). So they left, and the SPD lost a political generation.
I sympathize with those who are so disillusioned with the Democratic Party that they want an alternative (even though the US system makes such an undertaking – IMO – prohibitively difficult).
Perhaps instead castigating people who spurn the Democratic Party, it might be helpful to diary your vision of how the party should work – and what is should stand for.
Great Points!!
I had to go do a google on SPD however, then check your country to correlate same.
Please excuse my lack of worldly political knowledge, it is a terrible debilitating disease that afflicts most of us here in the US.
I know many die-hard life long, even senior citizen age Democrats who have pulled their financial support at the national level of Democrat politics. They are moving their dollars into the likes of MoveOn.org, where they feel their contribution will be more productive.
I don’t believe the populace is ready yet for a third party, but if the Ds lose again at the nation level in ’06…??
By the way, is this not ONCE AGAIN “being a prick”? This is constantly how they act.
Are you seriously complaining about broad brushes while at the same time attributing bad behavior to some amophous “they”? Come ON.
You are definetly being a prick right now. Shame on you!
Nice, very nice.
It was my impression that this blog was open to all opinions, and I asked about it uite specifically when I first got here, but you are going to go ahead and say that anyone who is not enthusiastically behind the democratic party is supporting and promoting the GOP?
If that is the kind of blog this is morphing into, then it’ll just be more of the same old same old.
There were thing that made this place different, unique and COMFORTABLE for me — having to toe the democratic party line is not something I care to participate in, and I thought that the blog OWNER had said differently — I guess I can wait and see what the community has to say.
You are attributing positions to me that I did not take in my comment.
How did I misinterpret your position?
My point, obviously, was that hijacking a thread to promote goals antithetical to the stated mission/theme of the blog is the same whether you are doing so as someone trying to promote the Green Party, for example, or as someone trying to promote the Republican Party.
you have a discussion about the Democratic Party, and on the desirability of moving it to the left, without confronting people that don’t support the Democratic Party because it is not currently far enough to the left?
You ask for the impossible.
I’m not interested in “confrontation” at this point with those on the left. I’m interested in getting these SOBs that are ruining my country out of power. I thought that’s what this blog was about, but you are making it clear I was wrong. No sweat at all, it’s your blog and should be about whatever you want it to be about.
Let’s be honest, though, you have about as much chance convincing many of the anti-Dems around here of coming back to the party as you do of convincing James Dobson and his followers to join us.
Paul, i respectfully disagree.
I am an example. You should have heard me after Nov. 2004. I was so disgusted that I swore that if the Democrats EVER nominated another candidate like Kerry, I’d vote for Ralph Nader. And I meant EVERY WORD.
Of course, I’ve mellowed somewhat…. and I read other people’s posts, and they influence me.
I may not indicate — in the thread — that I’m affected by what I’m reading. But I am! And so are probably dozens of people who read threads such as these and think, Oh, Paul has a good point, Boo too, Brinnaine’s quandaries make all the sense in the world to me, …
But one thing I’d like to see kind of go away in threads like these is holding people’s feet to the fire because of what they might have said in another thread or other point in time.
If I got bashed by ardent Democrats who reminded me — in every discussion — that I once said I’d vote for Nader in 2008 if the Dems didn’t shape up, well, I’d get a little STUBBORN and DEFENSIVE too.
My moods and views can shift in the space of a day… and a good part of that flexibility comes from communication with nonjudgmental listeners and rebutters.
In other words, it’d be great to “try on” various attitudes and views here, without being held fast to them, and being allowed to be influenced by each other.
P.S. If I vote for Nader in 2008, I’ll never tell.
(Just joking .. well … maybe not.)
is why, in my considered opinion, democrats will continue to lose. You offer nothing except, “we are the only choice you have if you don’t support the GOP”, and that is NOT going to bring the 3rd parties and independents to you. Not by a long shot.
Oh, and, I really hate when someone TELLS me their point was obvious, it smacks of consecension and sanctimony, if it was so obvious, you wouldn’t have to explain it, would you?
Gotta go volunteer at my son’s school — I;ll be back later to see how this discussion develops.
My God! Then I am “hijacking” threads to promote my goals of suggesting ways to live a more purposeful life with less stress and more joy. I had no idea I was so subversive. . .but then what can you expect from someone who came out on the poly quiz as a 90% socialist. (Yes, this is intended with some truth and lots of humor, just in case anyone thinks otherwise)
You are very unyielding in your pov. Fine. We will agree to disagree. Changing the democratic party to represent the real people living in this real chaos they have cooperated in bringing us is a very real and important goal of many of us here. And WHATEVER THAT TAKES, is what needs to be done. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.
the abandonment of the Democratic Party…as it is the feeling that the Democratic Party is abandoning us, by becoming “Republican-lite”. A lot of the discussion is more about reclaiming the Party, as well as our own power instead of sitting around moping about the status quo.
Sam Seder on Air America’s “Majority Report” had a great comment on Monday’s show — this isn’t an exact quote, I’d have to listen to the Podcast again — it was, “If I leave the Democratic Party, how can I change it?” His point was that if progressives are not happy with the direction of the party, instead of walking off to pout and sulk, they can change it by getting involved in their local party organizations and by encouraging like-minded people to run for office. When you think about it, that’s exactly how the Religious Reich got their start; they didn’t just emerge like Athena from the head of Zeus — they worked their way up, from the school boards and city councils and county commissions.
We need to be working with the young people, getting them into the mix now so that when they’re in their early 40’s they’ll be primed to begin to take a place on the national political stage. In the education threads, we’ve asked where our future bus drivers, plumbers, and auto mechanics are coming from — well, where are our future progressive Representatives, Senators and Presidents going to come from, unless we start building them now?
Here endeth the rant…
throughout this thread. You are trying to exert control over people’s words, and by extension, their thoughts. You seem to think that words and ideas can be dangerous. This puts you at odds the First Amendment to the Constitution. You seem to think that people on this site are so spineless that their sensitive ears can’t withstand certain ideas without becoming corrupted. I have a little more respect for other human beings than that. I can shout “Fuck the Democratic Party” 20 times in a row, and I doubt highly that it will negatively impact the party structure.
What scares you so much? That someone will present reasoned arguments about the problems in the party and the problems in the country that aren’t being addressed by the party? That other people might assess those ideas and find they are in agreement? If the Democratic Party can’t withstand a little scrutiny on small blog, then that is one weak-ass party. If it has to survive by suppressing ideas, then it is as cowardly as any tyrant.
Agreed! Great points.
Totally agree. With solidarity we can take it back.
… in the corner” diary then, since the goal is plainly to flog once again that those of us disgusted by the bi-partisan embrace of criminal wars and abandonment of the human rights of women, gays and prisoners should just swallow hard and accept that we have no choice politically.
I chose “other” because, while I’m a registered Democrat here in WI, where there actually are active progressives in office, I DO NOT support a national party that embraces the likes of Casey, Kaine and the odious fundi trojan horse that is Democrats for “Life”<sic>. I hope Kaine goes down in flames, b/c if he doesn’t the idiots at Third Way & DLC will use a win as “proof” that we have to join the Republicans in the dark ages in order to “win” the phyrric victory of more seats in a corrupt, repressive and dying Republic.
Flame away.
this is not a diary of that sort. It is just a reminder of the mission statement of the site. The mission of this site is to elect democrats so that we can get a majority. At the same time, it explicitly states that the site is not for the enforcement of any orthodoxy on the members, that people should not be made to feel unwelcome if they hold unorthodox views, and that I don’t give a shit how you self-identify politically.
Put it all together.
Debate is welcome. Bullying is not. It’s that simple.
while ignoring the “welcome everybody” faq is a passive aggressive attempt to push a conformity, IMHO. I think it’s plain that others reacted the same way.
I push hard because the anti-woman swing in the DSCC & DCCC scare the crap out of me, and I want to make it clear that it would be a disaster. I am, admittedly, a polemicist, but debate NEEDS polemicists to show the true boundaries of the questions at hand.
I try hard not to be a prick, really I do.
it is a touch passive aggressive, but that is a vast improvement on overt aggression. I think she layed out her concerns clearly enough, and she subtlely advocated for her position, and was nice enough to ask for feedback on it.
Unlike the orange place, this site is not just about the mission statement, but also about fostering a happy community of people. Perhaps I need to add that to the FAQ too.
Excuse me? I mean really, passive/aggressive? I have been accused of alot of things but this is just absolutely over the top. I did this diary more for myself than to become more clear in my mind where you and others stood. It is all very clear to me now. I cannot even begin to tell you how sad this all makes me. What a different place this has become. It is my opinion that you clearly would like to make this place all things to all people. I find that in todays chaotic fascist state of affairs this is not what I need to be participating in.
to be that you were advocating for a position of the site being more overtly pro-dem. I think that’s true. Whether that should be called passive aggressive or not is another issue. From his point of view it feels like advocacy for quieting him down. But I was trying to defend you against that charge. As I said, you were pretty open about where you were coming from. And I don’t see much aggression in this diary at all.
I don’t think I’m trying to have the site be all things to all people. I’m just not into censorship. Given a choice between ragged edges and enforced comformity, I’ll go with ragged edges every time.
There are plenty of opinions on this site that I don’t agree with. Some of them reflect pretty negatively on the community. But that is part of the price of giving people more freedom to express themselves.
I know that this will be taken as a completely Miers-esque statement. An effort to woo favor of the bossman. Like a chimp in the tribe trying to reach out and touch the alpha-chimp.
But, seriously, this statement:
I don’t think I’m trying to have the site be all things to all people. I’m just not into censorship. Given a choice between ragged edges and enforced comformity, I’ll go with ragged edges every time.
Is what makes this place tick. A great philosophy IMHO, that has allowed all this coolness to happen.
All right. I’m taking my nose out of his arse now. Sorry for that unseemly display. But it is true. I think.
Madman, here’s where I think you run into trouble with being a prick: First, you declare yourself a polemicist, then you make your tactics indispensable by declaring that somehow every debate needs polemicists, otherwise the participants of the debate are too stupid to recognize the extremes that are possible within a given situation.
This is an opinion which I disagree with. The vast majority of Tribbers are extremely intelligent and already understand the extremes. We do not NEED someone beating us over the head with extremes, like polemicists of your type are wont to do.
If you are a polemicist as an ideology, you will always have conflict as your main goal. I see you are doing very well at that, so maybe you think you are effective, but I see you being a prick and pissing people off.
When you call paulucla’s position to be that of a “ward heeler” you are way out of line, imho. I think paulucla has a valid argument and a valid position. If you disagree with him, why not debate him instead of name-calling? Last time I checked, name-calling does not even qualify as polemics.
If you want to engage in polemics against the FAQ, I think you need to do that with Booman. I see that is happening here, so I will now get out of the way.
it’s not an ideology, it’s a method, a tool. Common Sense:
Pretty strong language. People told him and a lot of other folks that they were not working within the system.
I feel in many ways that the Democratic Party in DC has betrayed the people of this country in many of the same ways that King George betrayed the colonies.
There are a large number of positions that aren’t reflected in the political conversation in this country, let alone actually represented with actual votes in the legislature. Those voices aren’t represented b/c there has been a clamor for decades to silence the left, to remove these perspectives from the public square.
Strong presentations of ALL points of view are necessary in order to have an honest debate. There are people like paulucla who insist that they ONLY way to engage in politics is thru one of the established parties, which isn’t working too well. There are people who lurk and read what is debated here. The right is where it is because they had effective presentations of views that were once considered the fringe. Now they run the country and appoint judges to the Supreme Court.
I have what would be considered very strong liberal/personal liberty points of view. I’m not an activist, I’m a writer. I’m merely trying to be honest about what I do. Polemics isn’t an ideology … it’s a tool.
Maybe that is part of the problem in this communication. There are those that walk the talk and those that write about it.
those who do are often shitty writers, and great writers are often bad at working in groups.
We all have our talents.
So I guess you believe I am a shitty writer?
Of course polemics is a tool. It is a tool just like a broad-brush is a tool. However, when a mere tool is elevated to the status of being THE worshipped tool, the only tool, it BECOMES ideology.
It sure is nice of you to compare yourself to Thomas Paine, however I didn’t notice him calling his fellow patriots(the ones who wanted to get rid of King George also, but perhaps with different tactics) any ugly names in that quote. Perhaps you can find one of those for my education on the matter.
I’m no Democratic Party apologist, but I do happen to agree that ONE valid means of attacking the problem of moving the political discussion to the left is to work within the party to take it back from the DINO’s. You may not agree with that position, obviously you don’t, but you have no right to hurl personal insults at someone who does. If you have to resort to such insults, your arguments must be very weak, indeed.
I welcome all ideas and all logical tools that can be used to take down this right-wing cronyist government, and I don’t think that crude infighting among those of us who share the same goal is helpful at all. If you would stick to using logic and rational argument instead of name-calling and shrill – I feel so threatened because MY voice is not being heard in national politics- type screeds, I think you would be much more effective as a writer. From what I’ve seen, you’re no Thomas Paine.
damnation… you guys are stretching my vocabulary, ain’t heard some of these words since univ days… some decades ago.
I disagree, and Paine was very hard on those who called for half measures.
I do, of course, understand that I’m nowhere near that level, but compared to much of the dialogue I read on the ‘net I’m doing pretty damned good.
The majority of the office holders w/ “D” after their name are not representing the people. They are the modern equivalent of Whigs and I have no qualms about attacking them. In fact, it makes more sense politically to attack the appeasers than the enemy, since if teh appeasers are replaced perhaps then we can actually fight the enemy.
I have no problem attacking Democratic appeasers either. In fact, the only difference between us is that I think it is valid to attack them from within the party structure and you do not view that as a valid method. You are an absolutist in this regard.
I do not view attacking Dem appeasers from outside the party as invalid. In fact, I think both methods are necessary, and I don’t think that calling each other names over this difference is going to help solve the ultimate problem of removing the wingnuts from office.
Also, I do not agree with you that the MAJORITY of Democrats are appeasers. In the Senate, for example, some Democrats, like Lieberman, are definitely a problem, and need to be taken down. Others, like Boxer are doing a great job, by and large. However egregious Lieberman’s transgressions are, though, I have never heard of him voting for a Republican leadership in the Senate when the Dems were in control. Now, you may point out that Daschle was no dream leader, but he was a damn sight better than Frist.
And when the Dems were in control, there was no way an egregious Bankruptcy bill would have ever made it to the floor. If it didn’t get to the floor, Dems like Biden, whose district is HEAVILY credit card company businesses and employees, would never have had to be put on the line to vote for it.
“welfare reform” got to the floor.
NAFTA got to the floor.
DOMA got to the floor.
I do view attacking from within as valid, I just can’t do it any more.
I love Boxer. Feingold. Many of the rest cross the aisle or fold at precisely the wrong time.
I’m willing to disagree, definitely. I just think that resistance needs to be louder. It worked for the right.
Go get’em, fer sure. I encourage you to continue working against all who will not agree with the liberal positions that you and I both believe will be best for our country. I just wish you would stop name-calling those of us who haven’t given up completely on the Dem party yet.
It is surely a struggle to move the Dem party to the left, but, imho, no more difficult than starting a whole new party. In my opinion all of the current third party alternatives have problems of their own, and I’m not ready to join those parties either. (FYI, I’m an independent, not a declared member of any party, though I almost always vote Dem).
I try not to, I just don’t have any patience for those who insist that the only path is thru the party. I try not to attack boo, or susan, or others who are trying to work through the party. What I object to is insistance on conformity.
I am certainly not one to insist on conformity from anyone. If you really knew how odd and non-conforming I am, you probably wouldn’t even take the time to respond to my comments. 🙂
However, I believe that it is possible to object to anything – ANYTHING – without being rude. Particularly here, where all we have is words. And here, where civility is a prized commodity. The strength of your arguments will stand a better chance of being understood. And your patience in dealing with others will lead to your positions being considered more carefully.
Thanks for the conversation Madman, I wish you well and I’ll see ya around…
rude … I try to think of it as intense!
😉
Why is it in stating what I believe insisting and stating what you believe your god given right to free speech?
Debate doesn’t ALWAYS need polemics. Certainly there’s a legitimate and meaningful place in the political arena for Radicals to remind us of the visceral nature and importance of the issues we grapple with, and to remind us that there are times when going beyond the bounds of decorum and protocol and even civil law are necessary. But these arguments don’t need to be a part of, or play a prominent role, in ALL debates. There are times when such radical expression, or such polemical exercise, are simply counterproductive and dissonant to the dialog at hand.
For keeping the site exactly what it is. An extemely cool space. I love the politics. I think it is what has drawn a lot of folks together. Relatively unified political philosophy and all.
But this site is so much more than that, to me. It is something like the little New England town hall I never had growing up. Like the fictional town hall in Northern Exposure. And the characters here. Flying Spaghetti Monster love ’em. The diversity of ideas and talents. Philosophy. Art. Music. Cuisine. This fucking place is a window on the world. I hope you all don’t vote to change that. I probably would miss the vote anyway, and still just keep on doing/reading the things I love.
Great space you have created Booman. Populated with all cool people. Just a great space.
The fictional town hall in Northern Exposure. That’s exactly what I love about this place and what I would miss if it became too centered on hard news and toeing the line democratic politics.
There are people here that I care about and think about even when I’m not online. You may think that’s pathetic or that my “real” life is empty, but that’s the power of getting to know someone, though never actually physically meeting them, through communities of this sort.
I don’t think the issue is about non-political participation at all. The issue is about a vocal group of far-left anti-Dems using the blog as a vehicle to promote interests that are extremely hurtful to the Democratic Party.
it’s not worth getting upset about. If the Dems are going to sell-out on issues that are important to people, then people are going to express their frustration. Some will vow to vote for a third party. A smaller number will actually do it.
I’m about moving the party left, not abandoning it. But other people feel powerless and betrayed. It’s all part of the national political debate.
Fair enough, its your blog. If that’s what you want it to be, that’s your choice.
I want a site where you and Madman can discuss an issue like the state of the party without flaming each other over it. I am protecting both of your rights to express your opinion and not be made to feel unwelcome for doing so.
But it is inevitable that tempers flare up over this issue. On both sides.
And, while I agree with you that the Democratic Party is the only vehicle capable of making the journey, I don’t agree with you that Madman’s rhetoric is harmful. If we don’t hear his voice then we don’t know what is going on.
And politically, I am near agreement with Madman. He’s just more pissed off than I am.
where you are now until about the ’94 midterm elections. After that debacle, I became increasingly pissed off, esp. watching welfare “reform” and the launch of the North American Free (NOT Fair) Trade Act pushed by BOTH parties. Now I’m watching my sister citizens be chained to their uteruses again, BY BOTH PARTIES, and it’s increasingly hard to keep that “D” after my name. Feingold and Gwen Moore enable me to maintain that registration, but it’s hard. If Kerry or Hillary or one of the other ineffective DINOs is the nominee next time, I will not be voting for them.
See Booman, this is what I do not get in your stance. You claim all are welcome here except Sean Hannity spouting/bashing talking point types. We all get that.I also understand it’s a big tent and we want do want to debate the issues. But debating the issues is much different that a poster saying the whole party sucks and dump them all isn’t it?
if that was all someone had to offer and they just kept repeating that one mantra, then yeah, it would be really annoying and trollish and not respectful of the mission of the site.
But I have yet to see anyone who is a missionary for the green party, even though we have greens as members. What I see is people that are pissed off now and then and they vent their frustration.
Basically, the only respectful speech I want to ban is anything along the lines of, “They found the WMD, President Bush said so.”
doest that mean I can stay?? 🙂
I’m a pissed off Liberal who is wanting to find solutions, advice and activities.
Also, I do hope that I contribute here… in some small way. (gotta go click more adds and try and make Second Nature laugh outload and snort)
Giddy up!
No that is not what I am saying. Advocate away for the Greens if that is what one needs to do INSTEAD of bashing the dems. Convince me that you have a solution to the mess instead of slamming my position. I am pissed at the dems no doubt but I feel strongly that if we all do not stick together to retake the houses and the White House we are headed for a really dark period in American History, one that we will leave to our kids and their kids. Is that what we want? Not me!!
Listen, I have voted Democrat my whole life, even when I have had to hold my nose to do so. But let’s be honest, the party has hurt itself. No one has really stood up against the war, they all got out of DC on the day of the march. They hurt the party by not all taking a united stand against the morally bankrupt bankruptcy law.
It’s a little like a lover who keeps cheating on you and promising that they’ll be better if only you come back. Or, here in Detroit, it’s like the Lions; they will look really win a few games and then they fumble on the one yard line for 5 games in a row to lose.
The religious right gained power by slowly and methodically taking over school boards and city councils during the 80s. I am all for the Greens and progressive independents to the the same. If the Democrats don’t want to lose those voters, than it must change and be real party of the people. That’s not hurtful to the party, it will save it.
If you are not familiar with Tennessee Williams’ play, The Glass Menagerie, Laura was a lonely girl, living with her neurotic mother, who had been given a pity kiss by a friend of her brothers on one occasion.
As the years passed, Laura cared for her little menagerie of glass animals, remembering that kiss. Of course the brother’s friend had long moved on with his life.
I think a lot of people who consider themselves Democrats are like Laura, remembering that one golden moment when the Democratic party made a tentative step or two into the realm of becoming the party of ethnic minorities, of the poor, leaning away from the “military industrial complex.”
But that was long ago, and many people who were alarmed by that youthful adventure have forgiven the Democratic party, which for its part has effectively recanted and repented, and moved on in the direction it considers to be in its best interests.
And forty years later, the Lauras still sit by the phone, dusting glass animals, remembering the kiss.
But blogs like this bring people together and can inspire us to get away from the phone and do what we have to make the Democrats that party of the voiceless.
The right started locally and took over the Republican Party. Someone like Ghostwriter running for county commissioner is a start. That’s not waiting for a call, that’s making a call.
As my union president says – “if everyone does a little, a lot gets done.”
Laura Democrats’ Pragmatic Dance Pimp Mix
I had no freaking clue what happened and I’m still not sure…
So I’m just going to continue on with loving you deliciously diverse dudes 🙂
I’m a liberal. A liberal who is pretty pissed off with the Dems, but that doesn’t mean I’m not working towards the same goal. I’d like to see the Dems wake up and that’s why I’m here… As well as seconding what BostonJoe said about this wonderful hidey hole.
The Democrats (the politicans) have created a sense of betrayal and mistrust. It’s like the burning bed syndrome. They keep telling me to simmer down and trust them… but I won’t stop demanding things from them 🙂 I won’t stop writing them and calling them. Why? because I want them to work.
I don’t think I’ve been about it… to anyone…
can we have some cake and lemonade now?? 🙂 (((AlohaLeezy))))) We’ve got a lot of work to do, baby.
This is what I want to hear quite frankly. I want to hear that we all are willing to fight to restore what we would like to see the dems be. The way to do that is keep participating, voting, running for office, work on a campaign.
Something I suggested to Booman was use the regional threads for the ’06 campaigns to find and support candidates that you like in that region and that we all may be willing to help support.
And if some of us are not willing to take up that fight (remake dems) but have others that we think are more worthy of our time and energy?
Where do we fit in? Or do we? I have been trying to figure this out for some time now. If someone who hold opinions like mine is ‘getting in the way’ of the work that you all feel needs to be done here, I am more than happy to go back into lurk mode….I think I said that in my first post on this thread.
I am not ignoring you and will gladly respond later. I am on vacation right now and have company and we are off to enjoy the day. Later and thanks to all that participated in this diary/thread no matter what you pov is. It is important to debate and talk. Later!
Enjoy your visit!
maybe you can at least help us define what it means to be “Democratic”, by discussing the issues that are important to you, such as economic security, education for our next generation of voters, etc.
I really appreciate your and everybody’s input on this site, because even if I totally disagree with a post, it makes me think about my own values and how to articulate them effectively. (In other words, do I actually walk the talk?)
Thanks for being here…
Thanks, Cali, not exactly sure what you mean though ….
“us” who? the party? individual democrats?
“define what it means to be democratic” — members of BMT? the party? or do you mean the system of democracy?
I’m happy to, I think, just need a bit of clarification, if you don’t mind!
😉
I mean the BooTrib community, and by extension the larger world we all live in.
And “what it means to be Democratic” — I think we’re all trying to figure out what the hell that means. It certainly extends beyond the “God, guns and gays” of the Republican party, but when the American voter is in the booth, that’s all they focus on because that’s all they hear. I guess it’s that need for a firm message from our political leaders that we’re all begging for, the one that would give voters a clear choice rather than more of the same old same old. Through discussions and yes, even arguments, we can help figure out what that message should be.
I just want to make sure your voice stays in the mix…mine will; it takes a lot to make me shut up… 😉
This is more or less my view as well.
I’m not in politics to be a Democrat. I’m not in politics to wear any sort of dumbass label or maintain my allegiance to some abstraction as though it’s a football team.
I’m a liberal. I’m in politics to work for specific changes in society that improve the lives of real people, and I’ll do that whichever way I determine a) gets me results; and b) doesn’t cause more harm than good.
I don’t mind debating the issues or the methods we might coalition to use to get results, but I don’t see the point in debating with pricks. I mean, I understand that other people think their analyses are right and mine are wrong, just like I think mine are right and theirs are wrong. And I understand that there’s a degree to which we’re all trying to convince each other to come around to each other’s pov, but people who will not stop with the insults and the heavy-handed paternalism don’t seem to be engaged in debating so much as in bullying. And bullying is, by definition, prickish.
Yup, I’m not here because I LIKE politics, I’m here because… I’m a mother, woman, human… who cares about the world/planet, her kid’s future and like you said – getting help for real people – making things better for real people.
Debate is dialogue, exchanging of ideas, hearing each other out.
Bullying is a beast called Prickersaurus.
When faced with that on here… which is rare… I just take what I like or need and leave the rest.
Prickersaurus. ::snort::
Registered Democratic, though.
Hey MSOC!! Good to see you ’round these parts!! How’s things?
Good to see you here Maryscott. Always like to get your perspective on the issues.
Catnip had a little test and most of us were Socialists. I was pretty permissive socially and economically.
Healthcare for all…. I’m such an “evil terruhist”
Democratic Socialist, thank you.
Yeah, I came out socialist too. Who’d a’thunk it?
But you know, there are good things to be said about socalism…. and liberalism, conservatism and even libertarianism… it’s a pity we can’t just have the Good Stuff from all the different platforms and make something LIVABLE for all concerned. No, they keep insisting we have to buy the whole dang shebang.
I like having all of you here. You’re all special — and one of the cool things about this site is that we can get to know each other as individuals.
Wasn’t it (ironically) King Juan Carlos of Spain who described Socialism as “…the next evolutionary stage after democracy”?
Although everyone calls me a socialist, I prefer humanitarian, but that’s just me… 😉
Interesting discussion. It’s important to talk about a site’s mission every once and a while so people can sort out why they’re here.
As a Canadian liberal who can’t even vote in your elections, I’ve gone through many periods of feeling like I don’t fit in. I went through that at dKos as well and left there because I didn’t feel there was much respect for minority opinions at the time. I haven’t seen that happen here – not to the extent that it did there.
So, why am I here? Because once George Bush grabbed power in 2000, I knew the US was going to be in serious trouble and what goes on in the US affects everybody in the world. I was much more comfortable being the US’s neighbour when Clinton was in power and didn’t feel the need to watch his every move because he basically shared the same values as most Canadian liberals. There were exceptions but the relationship was mutually beneficial overall. That is not the way it is with Bush – far from it.
Would I vote for a Democrat if I was an American? That depends on the candidate. I believe in supporting a party that can advance liberal principles but I will not permanently attach myself to that party or candidate if I see major flaws in their agenda. In Canada, I supported the Liberal party throughout my life – even when they went off the rails and became more centrist during the 90s. That was uncomfortable, but I refused to allow the Conservatives to take over my country again, so I voted strategically.
During our last fedral election, I was very close to supporting one of our “thrid parties” – the New Democrats (NDP) (who are further left on the spectrum) and struggled until the last minute when I finally decided that perhaps the new Liberal party leader, Paul Martin, might actually make good on his promises to turn the party back to the left a bit and to clean up the corruption in Ottawa. It was a hard decision. So, I totally understand why people choose to support third parties and I understand the need for strategic voting as well. I wouldn’t deny anyone the right to vote for whoever they feel they need to.
(As it turned out, the Libs were unable to grasp a majority and are now in a minority gov’t situation heavily influenced by the NDP which worked out well for me all the way around. It’s really unfortunate that third party voices are so difficult to hear in the US because I think they add very valuable contributions to the political debate.)
As for the site, I’m a vocal opponent of some of the Democrats’ policies and actions. I also support them when they do something that moves them closer to being true to liberal principles. As a Canadian, as a mother and grandmother, as a liberal and as a concerned citizen of the world, I have a personal stake in what happens. That’s why I’m here.
Well, I just have to thank alohaleezy for posting the FAQ! I, uhm, never bothered to look at that. Hmm…
I’ve missed out on the recent flamewars, so I can’t really comment on the debate. But I have to wonder if it is a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees.
I’ve said it before and will say it again: my values come before my party affiliation. I care deeply about women’s rights, gay rights, civil rights, the environment… I don’t value these things because I am a Democrat. But I sometimes vote Democrat because I value these things. (In the interest of full disclosure I have voted Green, Dem and not at all.) And I think the problems facing this country are NOT all the Republicans’ fault. I think this whole Admin should be thrown out on its ass, but there are plenty of Dems, Greens, etc. who are part of the problem too.
I agree with those who want to see us unified, but am baffled that it is Party unity they want. I saw our Party unified in support of Bush after 9-11. That’s not the unity we need. What we need is unity on the issues: preemeptive war and imperialism is wrong, every American must have access to affordable healthcare, every American has the same rights regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, or economic status, etc. etc., and we believe all of these ideas are worth fighting for …
That’s the unified voice I want to hear. And I’d invite all Dems, Greens, Socialists, Libertarians, Republicans … to join in that chorus. In fact, we are hurting ourselves if we refuse to include anyone in our movement on the basis of their party affiliation. We are in no position to be cherry-picking our allies.
Anyway, where do I stand? Not sure anymore. Surely after the last election you can’t begrudge those who wonder if there is not another, more effective vehicle for promoting their values other than the Democratic Party. And I say that as a big fan of the DNC Chairman. 🙂 But a Party is a means to an end, not an end in itself. If the Party had been busy & successful defending the ideas it claims to/used to stand for, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
As it is, it is screwing up and there is no reason we should hesitate to call them out on it. I mean, their job is to represent US, not the other way around.
The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.
I see BT as being much more holistic in its approach to discussing politics – mixing the personal effects of policies with the general fact-based debates. I think that makes it a more tight-knit community with more heart.
I think that is what Booman USED to be. What I have witnessed with the most recent influx(I believe this is the third big one)is a more aggressive, low tolerance for other veiws and the venom and name calling is totally disgusting to me. It is not the same and I guess that comes with growth.
I posted a suggestion as to a different way of using the regional threads for finding and inviting candidates for ’06. Not one person here responded to that little action item. Too busy analalyzing my passive/aggressive behavior I guess.
What I have witnessed with the most recent influx(I believe this is the third big one)is a more aggressive, low tolerance for other veiws and the venom and name calling is totally disgusting to me.
I have noticed some of that but I still haven’t had time to cruise through all of the recent contentious diary discussions, so I can’t speak to the scope of it. I guess my comment was just my general view of the character of BT which, despite going through these difficult times, has maintained its integrity, afaic. Of course others see things differently because we all have different experiences depending on which diaries and discussions we read or participate in, so I’m not discounting your perspective at all.
I saw your comment about using the regional threads, which is a novel idea. I just didn’t have any input about it because that’s not usually where my head is at – individual runs by candidates.
As for the passive/aggressive thing – if you feel it doesn’t apply to you, let it go. No sense being pissed off by someone’s opinion of you if you don’t think it’s true. (Right?)
Quite frankly it is not what they call me that bothers me but that any name calling is done to or by anyone here. The civility is gone and so am I. I am fighting the wrong fight here. I don’t want to fight against the dems, I want to fight to improve them and get rid of the GD republican nightmare we are living with.
The civility is gone and so am I.
What?? You’re not leaving are you?
I am fighting the wrong fight here. I don’t want to fight against the dems, I want to fight to improve them and get rid of the GD republican nightmare we are living with.
I thought that’s what the vast majority of people here wanted to.
Nah, they are too busy trying to take down the dems to be concerned with the nutjob in the WH that has his finger on the nuclear button. Whatever.
if you need anything, feel free to email or I can give you my number.
I completely agree with you about the Regional Threads, which is why I’ve tried to post links to diaries that focus on an area, or perhaps a link to an article that highlights a race. You should do the same if you find local stuff in SD. Maybe it’ll start a new trend.
I don’t think you’re being passive-agressive. You are clearly frustrated with the change of tone, this diary was a way for you to air that out. I hope you will choose to stick around and engage in ways that are helpful to you. It was amazing to see you in Crawford and to get the various updates, I would hate to see your voice leave us. Hugs and Peace to you.
Thanks Manny but I believe my relationship with this blog has run its couurse. I quoted the owner as to his mission and that is what brought me here. Things have changed and that is ok. Time to move on to where I feel I am communicating with people that want the same things as I do.
“Time to move on to where I feel I am communicating with people that want the same things as I do.”
When you get there, drop me an email.
If all this negativity gets any worse here you’ll have some company. The reason I quit the Orange was too much time wasted reading the bickerings… just too much of an energy drain… energy that could have been used for something more productive.
What is going on here? Do I have to read through all of the diaries to get it because I’m just not seeing the same volume of negativity you and leezy are.
I’m trying to understand this.
First, just to clarify I ain’t leaving BT.
Mostly, I was thinking alohaleezy might find a blog at which I might promote my particular agenda. (See sig line if curious.)
OTH, I’ve spent hours trying to figure out what’s going on here. And I’m tiring off it all.
If I had to take a test on who was on which side of what seems to be the two main topics; 1. fk the troops vs. support the troops, or 2. third party/to hell with the Ds vs. fight from within… I’d surely get an F. Time is limited… how best to use it?
However, I think our “discussions” here at BT are necessary as they are a mirror image of what’s happening off the net, especially with respect to #1 above.
Similar discussions are going on with all democrats that I currently converse with.(Howard Dean getting the chairmanship of the DNC kept many of them from bolting.)
Most of what I hear off-net is that life-long Democrats are seriously considering pulling their finances from the national campaigns, and contributing to orgs such as MoveOn. I guess they feel like they might get more bang for the buck that way.
As of yet, no one that I know considers a third party a viable choice. However, the Ds on the national level will have to have some results.
IMO if the Ds lose in ’06 and ’08, the two-party system as we’ve known it will be finished, at which time I would expect a third party to become viable.
OMG… approaching diary length…
The biggest problem I’ve had here lately is with the personal attacks. Any one of us could be “hit” by some comment/diary at a sensitive moment. If it happens to me and steam emanates from my ears whilst I’m pulling my hair out, then rather than counter-attack, I shall leave the city for a few days of peace and quiet of the country… I kind of like hearing the annual geese migration anyway.
You too NDD (reference to comment a couple of scrolls down). Stay.
Not leaving! However, I might have to take a few days off to recharge. See my reply to catnip above. Thanks for your encouragement BJoe.
I hope you get a chance to read this. I don’t know if it will do much good, and I don’t know if I understand 10% of what is being said in your diary, and around the place these past few days. I don’t even know you all that well, or even at all. But I do feel moved to say this: (Feel like singing line “Please don’t go, don’t go, don’t go away” — but, I don’t want to be silly here). I want to say, honestly, without knowing you, I think you are a good part of this place, and that this place is a good thing, the sum of its disparate parts, and that it will lose a little if you have to take off. Even if I might disagree with you here or there, and I might, or might not — I can’t even tell right now. I mean I am a loony lefty-dem-ex-dem. I might want a 3rd party someday. I might doom your party. Or I might just miss the bus when your party makes it big. But, we here, are a community of pretty good people — you, me and us all — and their is some power here. For whatever our individual flaws. And I don’t want to see it grow smaller in your absence. I ignore a lot of what I don’t agree with. Skim a lot. Occasionally talk back if something really gets me. And would encourage you to do the same. But stay. In addition to the work you are going to do to make your party a better place. Hang out with us some more. Need to sing more here: “The promoter don’t mind. If we take a little time. Soooooo. Won’t you stay. Just a little bit longer.” Sorry for embarrasing myself here. Totally serious in saying it though. Stay. Let this little dust-up blow over. Someday, Booman will be president. Or maybe you. But one of us. Dammit. And then the world will be better, and we will in-fight like this in the oval office. And people will get indicted because of dust-ups just like this. But it won’t be as fun a political revolution, unless you are there for the ride.
So there. Now you can leave knowing that there is one loony son of a bitch back at your old website, huh? Seriously. Stay.
Thanks Joe for your encouraging words. I am literally sick over what has been happening in my country, in my party, in this community. I need to take a step back and find where I need to be to best fight the fight. I am sick to death of fighting the republicans and now I have to come here and fight for the dems too? Nope. Not gonna do it. Maybe some day But not now. It is too important to me to waste my energy on all this ugly infighting. I only have so much to fight with and for me that is taking enough of a toll without coming to a place that I get called names and told I have a mental disaorder. Enough is enough. I tried to do this diary and the poll so that we may all work better together to achieve getting the assholes out of our lives. Guess it was a mistake. I must…get….sleep….now.
Just a suggestion — and I don’t mean to push. You know your energy level and all that. And everybody needs a break sometimes. I’ve felt some frustration over the course of the last few days, and even let some slip. But this suggestion — because, honestly, I think the community here benefits with your presence — just come, and take in the good, and skim right past the bad. Don’t waste an ounce on the stuff that isn’t worth it. Ignore that stuff. Walk away from that stuff. But stay for what is good. And we get the benefit of having you. But, if you can’t. I do get that. Well. Best to you either way. I hope to read more things with your name tagged to it.
I know the community benefits from your presence. You’re an activist Lee and people like you are indespensible at this moment in time.
OT, how was Santana last night? You lucky lady :o)
Santana was unflippin believable M! We had outrageous seats and shook our booties for two hours. I even fell in love last night!!!!! With the conga player….teehee. So all the gals here that have been fighting over Keith O can have him. This guy is hot, hot, hot…(just like you)lol.
Thank you M for your most kind words. I have had a day to think about things and probably will stick around but just be more choosey in the diaries and threads I participate in. You know I love this community dearly. It MADE me be an activist instead of just complaining about the state of the country it made me realise I MUST do more. For people like you and the push I got from others I will be eternally grateful. Namaste my friend.
I heard his show was amazing. He was in Tucson the night before San Diego. Here is the review from the local paper. I wish I could’ve made it!
I’m glad you are sticking around. Paz mi amiga.
Yikes! :o) You sound like a bubbly schoolgirl Lol
Thats a good thing. Glad you had fun and fell in love :o)
On diaries. I think I’ll be a little more careful myself when I engage with people that I have absolutely no hope of reaching common ground with. It’s a waste of valuable time and energy, as you know. I’m not here to be convinced to change my core principles. You and I have differences, but like I said above, we have far more in common.
Peace my friend
That’s it exactly M. We have differences but far more in common. Thank you. Namaste.
Leezy I’ve got to say that the temperature in the pond seems to have risen a bit lately, but I thought the protagonists last weekend were mostly BT old-timers. We just hadn’t had the support-the-troops screaming match here before.
What’s the third major influx been about? Have to say I missed that…
that was Booman’s count to me this morning.
Please e-mail me since I don’t have your e-mail address. I promise I won’t try to convince you to stay. I’m just very concerned about what’s happened and I don’t know the whole picture. I don’t want to see you go because you contribute so much here and you would be sorely missed, but if you feel you need to go I can respect that too. You’re just such a big part of this community. Geez. The fallout from the recent BT wars has been tough to handle.
Thanks Catnip. It is midnight here and I just got home from a fabulous Santana concert. I will email you in the morning. My heart just can’t take any more today. Goodnight.
What best describes your political affiliation?
. Democrat 40%
. Republican 0%
. Green 12%
. Libertarian 0%
. Communist 0%
. Independent 26%
. Other 20%
Votes: 49
Very interesting poll;so far, seems like mostly we are ‘others’, or in other words a ‘big diverse mix’, sans any Republicans.
I tend to support whatever may be true or accurate, even when such truths may be uncomfortable. I do this because I believe the truth is more valuable than simply believing what I want to believe.
With this in mind, I have to say that, regarding the Democratic party, I have no interest in gratuitously bashing the party for it’s failures, but neither do I feel a knee-jerk compulsion to laud the Dems as the “last best hope for the country”.
As the Dem party is currently constituted, I simply don’t believe that grand claim is accurate. If we’re going to have a party that truly does have the ability to set the country on a better track and repair the incredible damage wrought by the Bush regime and the Grover Norquist crowd, we need a lot of different Dems than the ones we have now. We need Dems who can both articulate the principles that we hold dear, and then to actually stand up in defense of those principles.
I simply will not support Dems or anyone else who fail to clearly state their positions on the key issues of the day, and who don’t display the kind of basic responsiveness any effective advocate for the public good needs to have as far as his/her ability to communicate with all us common folks. If this puts me out of sync with BMT’s mission, please let me know.
I’m an unapologetic Democrat. The few times I didn’t vote for a Democratic candidate was when s/he was SO appallingly vile that I just couldn’t. Back in the old days, we had a lot of La Raza Unida candidates running and I was always grateful to have that option on the ballot when one of those truly vile D candidates was on offer from the party.
Why a Democrat? Well, it’s not because I embrace most of the Democratic politicians currently (or formerly, for that matter) in power. In fact, I am royally pissed at most of them. I just hate Republican “values” more. I hate the war. I hate that they left thousands of people without food and water and hope of rescue in NO. I hate that they think women and minorities are “lesser” and that gays and non-Christians are evil. I hate that they are OK with pathetic public schools in poor neighborhoods and great schools in rich neighborhoods. That a college education is more and more unaffordable for any but the upper classes.I hate that they preach loudly that robbing women of their autonomy and control of their own bodies is “moral.” I hate that they think people dying for lack of health care is not a problem. Obviously, I could go on . . .
Are there Democratic politicians that are just as bad on one, several, or all of these issues? Damn straight. I hate them too. (Note to self. Hating corrodes from the inside. Bad wolf. ARRRGGGGHHH – it’s just so hard!!!)
But, on the other hand, I know Democratic politicians that DO fight for MY values. And I’ll fight for them. In real life, I’ll go to work to get them elected. I’m too scared of what’s happening to our country to embrace the position of letting the R’s gain more and more power so that things get so much worse than they are now that Democrats will get some kind of wake-up call and cease their hypocrisy and corporate kow-towing, or that a third party will become viable. I’m afraid of how much suffering and death people will have to endure on the way to that point.
But that’s just me. And that’s my non-virtual politics. Here at BMT, I depend a great deal on the community, the non-political snortage and hugs to keep my sanity. I learn about politics and so much else. I hope to convince others to support real progressive Democrats – to run for office, even, if you’re strong enough (I’m not). To move the party to the left, to caring about real people and not just power and re-election. I hope I’m respectful when I do that. I might be right about the “move the party to the left from within, from the bottom up” or I might be wrong – it might be too late, too hopeless. I hope I listen respectfully to others who think I’m wrong.
In the meantime, please keep the snortage and the hugs and the photos (thanks again for the PhotoFair!) coming.
I’m not particularly active in the mechanics of partisan politics but I identify with everything you say.
I think all of us benefit from a broad array of interpretive insights, even from those who may not necessarily agree with our own particular strategic analysis.
And not to seem to engage in trivialities, I have to say I love the word “snortage”!
I’m mad as hell at the Democratic Party (and at certain Democratic office-holders) if for no other reason – than what they did to Howard Dean. But also, of course, for appeasing the Republican agenda and for selling out to corporate america.
But..
I agree with the idea that we have to work within the party for change, mostly because I have a pragmatic streak in me. I see on a national as well as local level (MN now has a Republican governor and split legislature) that having Republicans in charge leads to people dieing as well as facing other serious issues in their lives. Imagine how our response to Katrina might have been different if Clinton’s FEMA was in charge.
I get scared about people abandoning the party because alternatives will take time and in the meantime real people get hurt. We’re not just talking politics, we’re talking people’s lives. I don’t mean to get dramatic, but that’s why I get scared and anxious when I hear about people supporting third parties or not voting. There’s a lot at stake, and I think that’s why tensions run high about all of this.
In these circumstances I think about the old saying that you can’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Looking at the title of this topic, I wasn’t sure how productive this was going to be.
I was wrong, I think this was very productive.
Just my opinion, but I think a lot of the rudeness, hostility, and discomfort people have noticed or mentioned on this site recently (last month or so?) is rooted in the topic of this diary.
Let me start by saying, I think one can hold both perspectives (or a completely different one). But its also possible one could expect one of those views, but not the other.
I think much of the friction comes from the depth of conviction folks have on their views. Sometimes challenging those views, or showing disrespect to the views, or even outright mocking of the views is taken as hostility, or even as a personal attack. And sometimes its responded to in kind, but more directly, leaving little doubt that it is… defensive (some more aggressively defensive than others).
Deep convictions are important. Heck, they’re good, they’re key! And sometimes we don’t want our convictions challenged. The #1 site rule protects the most important conviction “I am of value”.
The comments in this diary hash out some other pretty big convictions. And right now, for some people, these are conflicting.
The written word of the site FAQ supports one view (as pointed out by Alohaleezy) — the ‘fix the dems’ side.
The tradition (history) and current practices of the site really support another — ‘explore them all’.
Now, the site FAQ and 98% (made up statistic) of what happens here easily supports both. For the vast majority of comments, we all get along.
If we fully explore politics, we may tear the party down, repeatedly. If we’re trying to fix the dems, continuously trashing the party is never going to work.
I love that we try to do both. But the conflict is built in. At the least, the FAQ might need a bit of a tune-up to better explain our freewheeling attitude here.
(hey, rather than run my own comment off-topic, I’ll just post a 2nd one… deeper musings later)
Speaking personally, when I found dKos, I was looking for a place that would let me help “fix” the Democrats, to seize back the country from the GOP. Well, it was such a place, kinda, as long as I played ball the way they told me to — upon penalty of ridicule, shame, or personal attack. Since I kinda value my capability for free thought, and they get things wrong more often than not, I didn’t really fit. So I left. No big loss, they kicked out my friends too — women, GLBT supporters, hippies, war protesters (and perhaps anyone who doesn’t meet the dress code, I kinda stopped paying attention). Why do I mention this long boring history part?
I think we’ve got a number of members here who are looking for what I was looking for at dKos. I’m not going to knock that, after all, I was one too. Some members here remind of myself based on my (possibly wrong) understanding of what they’ve written.
When I got here, I met all the wonderful people here. One thing they all had in common was how deeply they cared. It wasn’t about which candidate was up 2% in a tracking poll, it was about the human aspect of politics. And that’s universal.
Since then I’ve come to know (even if they don’t know me) and be moved by everyone. Seriously. I hate name-droppers and academy awards speeches, so don’t expect a list. I’ll save the naming to just a few folks here and there to make a few points.
Over time, I’ve come to love the variety of voices, and found myself identifying with the “weak Dems are the problem” group. I mean, I live in the midwest. I live in one of the reddest districts in MN, battleground state, home of Senator Smilin’ Norm Coleman. I laugh at some of the ideas folks have on how to win by recapturing the center — or their enthusiastic zeal for running full-tilt left, damn the consequences, the voters will come. And other ideas I love so much I adopt them. But I love hearing them all. Then I offer my own (and laugh at some of them too — some really stink after a bit of feedback). We may disagree on details, but if we ran the House, Senate, and Executive, we would make one damn fantastic nation
Myself, I love the voices that challenge the status quo the most. Whether that’s Parker taking down the centrists (and some days, that seems to include 98% of the party, and most of the blogosphere), Brinnaine, Ductape, Madman, or the rest — I learn something new from them. And its not that they all agree with each other — sometimes they don’t. Or agree with me (Madman and I just finished disagreeing about religion). But its all good. Discussing interesting ideas in an atmosphere of respect is amazingly enjoyable.
In my opinion, if the goal were really, truly, to use this place to be a polite forum for rebuilding the Democratic party — some of those other voices may be disruptive to the process. To most efficiently rebuild the party, you have to enforce some degree of message consistency. Just like building a platform — once its built, you really should enforce it. If you don’t, you get ineffective … oh yeah, we have an example — the Dems.
But I think this place is better than that. This isn’t a Microsoft or IBM, cranking out great political thoughts. Its more of a Google — wild, crazy, often off topic, sometimes counterintuitive, seldom predictable, often defying common sense.
We are often creative, passionate, out-of-the-box, challenging conventional wisdom, and boldly rejecting the status quo. I think since we generally don’t focus on “improving” the Democratic Party, we’re actually more likely to make a real breakthrough.
“If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” thinking is hard to overcome. It encourages us to not mess with things that are “okay”, either because it really “isn’t exactly broke”, or because there are things that are broke that are “higher priority”. (Gee, sounds kinda familiar when its put that way…)
I hope our community can stay together. In the end, its up to us to decide if we can or can’t. Boo just isn’t the type to start forcing people out, so we’re gonna have to make that decision individually for ourselves.
I admit I have a bias — I want the loud (sometimes angry) voices to stay. I honestly think even if they don’t like the Democratic party, they may hold the best ideas on how to fix it.
But this conflict stuff really has to stop. We should never accept the silencing of voices. We shouldn’t take attacks on our concepts as attacks on us personally. Conversely, we shouldn’t accept people attacking concepts to attack someone personally. It’d be nice if we could seperate ourselves from our positions, but that’s naive. If there were easy answers, someone would have solved this already.
In that respect, its really nice that this place comes closer to the ideal than any other place I’ve seen online. That said, its just as smooth around here as it used to be. Hopefully most of that is just conflicting expecations over what this place is about.
In the past three months. You are intelligent, compassionate, humane,creative,interesting,supportive at times, most of all diverse. That is the collective strength of this site (and the Democratic party) IMHO. But Folks I gotta say this. FIND THE COMMON GROUND! We ARE out of time. Mid Term Elections are nigh. Look for what is important to us all. Rally around that. Or we will squander what very well may be our last chance!
I don’t have kids or grand kids to worry about. But as an older American, I would like to hope that what has been good and just about our society, may yet endure for a generation or two after I am gone. Stop the bickering! PLEASE.
keepinon,
this is off topic. I am putting together a list for the local protest. I’ve had an e-mail malfunction (operator error). If you want on the list, please drop me a note.
Sorry I am a technical idiot,
Hope this finds you.
keepinon,
disregard. turns out, technically, I am only half an idiot. I found it. Talk to you.