Booman hates framing because he just doesn’t get it. And he just doesn’t get it because he’s been schooled in the one of the Western Tradition’s Big Lies–the Big Lie of disembodied knowledge.
Understanding Lakoff’s framing theories involves understanding basic logic. And I don’t feel like giving an academic explanation of all the intricacies of symbolic logic. So, I’ll just use layman’s terms.
To which media girl quite rightly responded:
Thanks for the contempt
Silly me! I just don’t understand logic! Goodness! That means the tarot cards are wrong?!
/sarcasm
Again, I think you’re arguing with a straw man. Framing is not willy nilly manipulation.
Booman himself is operating inside a frame. The frame of disembodied knowledge. And as media girl quite aptly notes, it’s a frame drenched in elitism. It’s also utterly wrong.
The irony and the puzzle to be explained here is that on virtually every specific example Booman and I are in agreement. But I see them as misunderstands, distortions, misapplications, or corruptions of framing, while he frames them as the essence of framing. The reason for this, as I see it, is a fundamental, quasi-religious belief in a mythical realm of knowledge beyond framing, beyond the body and the earthly realm, beyond politics, beyond us all.
The frame of disembodied knowledge received its classical formulation in Plato’s Theory of Forms. Plato was entranced with mathematics. The truths of mathematics do not depend on the senses. They are what we call analytic truths. They are truths of reason. And because they do not depend on what comes in through our senses, they appear to have no dependence on the body, no dependence on the world as we perceive it. They represent a “higher” truth, dealing with higher objects–numbers.
Plato took this example, and ran with it. He assumed that there was an entire realm of similarly higher objects–the “Platonic Forms”–and that all true knowledge was the knowledge of them. All else was illusion. He used the metaphor of the cave. Men dependent on their senses were like men trapped in a cave, and what passed for knowledge among them was nothing but shadows on the wall of the cave. They knew nothing of the world above, directly illuminated by the Sun–the world of the Platonic Forms.
The problem is, Plato was utterly wrong. His theory cannot possibly work, because there is no logically coherent way to connect his ideal forms with the empirical world. Platonists have been trying to solve this problem for 2500, and they have repeatedly failed.
There are other problems as well, which have not figured as prominently in the annals of philosophy. One of them was pointed out by America’s greatest and most original philosopher, William James. James–who started out as a neurologist–pointed out that analytic truths were the product of the human nervous system, which in turn was the product of human evolution, which in turn was the product of empirical events. Thus, James coined the term “backdoor empiricism” for the way in which the physical world gave us analytical truths.
Platonism Est Mort, Vive Platonism!
Despite the fact that Platonism is logically incoherent, it retains enormous appeal for certain kinds of people. People like me, in fact. Or at least, who I used to be at one point in my life. I was a teenage math geek, way back in second grade.
Platonism in one form or another is constantly being reborn. And why not? Logic holds enormous appeal, in part because it’s such an efficient way of cutting through BS.
But human beings aren’t logical. We want and mean and need and value contradictory things. The answer is not to abandon logic, but realize its limitations. Logic is a tool. How do we apply it? We apply it within a context. And context is what framing is all about.
In his heart of hearts, it appears to me, Booman would just like to solve all our political problems with a simple equation expressed, perhaps, in the language of formal logic. I shared that desire, once. Hell, I share it still. Only now I know that it’s an illusion.
Because he can’t do this, Booman sometimes swings to the opposite extreme. Just SHOUT IT!
And lastly, you can usually do better by just saying, “I’m for goddamn small class sizes, America’s children deserve it.”
adding
Mind you, that is NOT framing. That is just a declarative statement.
But, as ubikkibu wisely retorts
Plain talk can be the best framing. [Ducks head]
No really. The above is a statement of values that does not employ Republican-leaning words like “school choice” or “performance accountability,” etc.
Yup! You can’t escape from framing. Declarative statements involve framing, just like every other form of language. Booman doesn’t like this. It makes him angry. He wants his realm of pure Platonic thought. He wants his policy wonk discussions where real thinking goes on, and problems are solved, once and for all. And everything else that is not what he wants is pure manipulation, which utterly disgusts him:
Framing is a concession to the stupidity and impressionability of the electorate. It is cynical thru and thru. (That doesn’t mean it isn’t effective).
Booman’s thinking–reflecting the dominant Western Tradition–is deeply dualistic. There is the higher realm, the realm of Platonic Forms, of formal logic, of policy wonk discussions, of reason. And there is the lower realm, of sleazy used car salesmen, politicians, and people who try to frame arguments in ways that reach other people.
This sort of pernicious dualism–in which all that is above is good, and all that is below is bad–is clearly seen as delusional and destructive when we witness it on the right. “Who Would Jesus Bomb?” we rightly ask of the new Crusaders. But Booman is doing precisely the same sort of thing, only in a more subtle way. But it’s just as firmly entrenched in his thinking as anything in the Neocons’ or Theocons’ group mind.
That’s why he can back off momentarily when confronted with compelling evidence, and then a nanosecond later be back to his old ways.
For example, he was when confronted directly by someone who really knows her stuff, Janet Strange, here:
I heard Lakoff speak a few days after Rove made his asinine comment:
Conservatives saw the savagery of 9/11 in the attacks and prepared for war; liberals saw the savagery of the 9/11 attacks and wanted to prepare indictments and offer therapy and understanding for our attackers.
Lakoff blasted the Democratic response – which sounded a lot like, “No we are not wimps. We don’t want to offer terrorists therapy.” He said the Democrats should have just changed the f’ing subject.
That they should have said – this war is a disaster, it was sold to the American people on lies, and it has made us and the entire world less safe. Say it loud and don’t back down. I do not see this as spinning, packaging, or deceiving.
and he responded:
you keep acting as though I am saying Lakoff is wrong. I’m not. I’m saying that using his theories to package failed or unpopular policies won’t work.
We can never out-lie the Republicans and we don’t want to.
And yet, Booman continues to attack framing, not the misapplication of framing. Why? Because, despite his brief backing off, he sees it as fundamentally dishonest. Logic is good. Rhetoric is bad. Framing comes from the realm of rhetoric, and therefore is inherently bad.
Underlying all this is the ever-reincarnated Platonic dream, involving (1) The belief in objective knowledge. (2) The belief that humans can have such knowledge. (3) The belief that it can be had of the empirical world. (4) The belief that it can be expressed in pure, literal, uncorrupted language.
But Plato was a reactionary. And this vision is not just epistemologically wrong. It, too, is fundamentally reactionary. The fact is, knowledge, like freedom, is the product of constant struggle. We have to fight for it. It is something we construct.
That is how even the most basic of human cognition operates, not just the formulation of political consciousness, but formation of primative sensations. This can be seen in optical illusions, which work by revealing something of the mechanisms of how we automatically construct the images of the world that we naively take to “just be there.”
Once upon a time, what I am saying here was philosophy. But now it’s science. We study information processing scientifically. And one thing we see, over and over and over again is that useful information is constructed out of inputs that need to be pre-processed before they are processed, and then can be formated for output in order to be useful for any other process to use. That is, information is continually being constructed. It is not data–which means “given.” Nothing is “given.”
It is taken.
John Van Neuman, meet Frederick Douglas.
Excellent diary.You cleared alot up for me. I read Lakoff’s book and it really hit home for me. Framing can be done honestly and without malice.Thank you for sharing your intellect here.
Frankly, I think it is more powerful to see when frames are being formed so that you don’t step into them and get “framed” and also to break them.
The key is not letting the “paint dry” on a frame… you have to smash it before idiots start running around spouting “Blame game” and “Intelligent Design”.
Also, the Democratic leadership likes to use frame…unfortunately not against the GOP but it’s own base…
Lakoff’s mission is to raise our consciousness, make us aware of it, and help us learn how to frame things the way that consistently expresses what we want to say.
Would anyone object to someone teaching their child how to form sylables and words? No, of course not! Even though the child could just point and scream.
How about objecting to teaching spelling and grammer? Would anyone object to that? Again, no.
How about teaching English composition? Would anyone object to that? No? Didn’t think so.
So why object to teaching people how to express their ideas in a contextually consistent fashion? Why is that a bad thing???
Again, this diary is an answer to that question.
I agree with you… I think it is “curious” to say the least.
…particulary since the Tom Kertes debates… which were premised on the “philosophical merits” of the debate in itself about “Abortion is morally wrong
you did answer it.
But the funny thing about this comment is the way it illustrates that there is a language-only focus.
You cannot teach how to author ideas… only statements!
We are writing ideas now… let’s all join in.
Again, this is a fantastic piece of work!
but we all know a lie when we hear one, and BooMan is right to point out that using framing to gloss over important details or negative tradeoffs is not the way we want to emulate Republicans.
I was initially surprised, then challenged by BooMan’s strong viewpoint against framing. I still don’t agree with him overall that framing leads inevitably to soulless soundbites rather than honest communication, but the danger is certainly there and I’m glad to be reminded of it.
Mostly I appreciate mentally sparring with such a smart group of people, knowing that we’re all friends and all pulling for the same goal. Your diary is a bit confrontational, so I just wanted to reiterate how much I value those times we don’t all agree.
Well, Duh! Of course we have to fight against lies.
But the biggest lie of all is to equate framing with lying. The right has been wildly successful–far beyond the numbers of people who actually agree with it–precisely because they excel at framing.
They excel at other things, too, that Booman doesn’t object to: GOTV, phonebanking, etc. And they lie in the process of doing those things, too. So why doesn’t he rail against GOTV and phonebanking?
This diary is the answer to that question.
called “transactional analysis” and it had some very interesting analysis about how one can slip into the various roles in life – adult, father or mother, and child roles. I could tell when I read about it that it could be very powerful in dealing with the trigger issues we have in our lives. It could also just facilitate the wars we have with each other. After all, I could claim that I was in my “adult” while you were just responding as your “child”! Same with framing. Just because the repubs have been successful with framing doesn’t mean that they have been a success. But I agree that the dems need to realize how framing works and side step it. Framing is obviously very powerful, but it has been used to facilitate the wars we have internally and externally. And the danger lies in the word “integrity”. When we incorporate integrity into our actions only then are we a success, I believe. Because we become more real as human beings for one thing. We can work with our allies, care about our people or we can be deceitful, heedless and greedy. The difference is integrity, I believe. Knowing that I cannot ask you to go against your principles but I need to be able to articulate mine in a coherent way that does not rely on shorthand code that only a few people have access to. So the “family values” crowd with their “culture of life” do not exhibit integrity in my view. All of their words are codes for some other value that is not stated. And none of the “values” seem to have any real integrity and we (the dems) never call them on it. We know the contradictions in the so-called “life culture”. There is a true cognitive dissonance if ever there was. But we rarely say “I want a world where every child is wanted and is prepared for its coming with a quality of life that reflects love and caring!”
One way of coping with the gaming of T/A was the deeper development of script analysis (see Scripts People Live). I’m not saying it was foolproof, but it did take things to a deeper level.
Likewise, framing has a deeper level, too. And this is where Lakoff’s truly original work comes in, his work on cognitive metaphor (see Metaphors We Live By, and how this applies to politics (see Moral Politics). What Lakoff is doing is bringing together very old practices (thousands of years), modestly old understanding (the last few decades) and new insights (his own, and those of collaborators) to not just elucidate messaging but to show how it impacts our own self-understanding and ability to articulate, expand and defend our own vision, policies and programs.
For example, he talks about how a more expanded notion of national security and foreign policy is needed to include concerns that matter to most Americans, but that don’t fit into the conservative, narrow self-interest frame of national security. This expanded notion includes things like human rights, fighting global poverty and disease, environmental protection, etc. Seen from the narrow self-interest frame, all of these may be nice things, but they are all of secondary importance. In fact, they aren’t really foreign policy at all. They’re therapy or charity or some such thing.
But that’s not really true. They are all very real concerns that have impacts on everything–including the conservative self-interest core of foreign policy. Yet, in order to see how this is true, and how you can talk coherently about them all, you need to articulate a new frame.
Interestingly enough, the new frame is not really new at all. It simply hasn’t been developed and applied in a consistent, deep and far-reaching manner. Parker quoted Harry Truman hitting on some aspects of that frame. And around the same time, Eleanor Roosevelt was leading the way hammering out the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which was a further elaboration of that frame. But the systemization of that frame is something that has only recently been the focus of serious scrutiny. Unfortunately, 9/11 happened, and reactive mode took over. But it’s worth returning to again, and I think I’ll try writing about it in my next diary.
I think this is an important discussion and many of your points are good ones That’s why I recommended. As a writer I spend a lot of time on finding the right words in part because I don’t believe it’s possible to communicate without framing on some level.
At the same time, I’m not at all thrilled with the frame you’ve chosen to use in the title of this diary and its argumentation. I disagree with Booman on the substance of framing, and am all for arguing the point with him, but you’ve gone beyond putting ideas in the mouth of someone else to putting ideas into someone else’s head.
I too spend time carefully selecting language in my work. That care spills over into other writings. It can be difficult to take a step back and see how others might view the document. I would agree that perhaps not the best frame for this diary but it is worthwhile nonetheless.
And that’s why I chose to recommend it. I think it’s one of the better brief takes I’ve seen on framing in general and very much worth reading. I just can’t give it the unqualified recommendation I’d like to because of the framing of the diary itself.
I think you’re judging my diary as if it were a standalone piece. But it’s not.
It’s a response to two previous diaries by Booman in which his intransigence has become increaingly apparent. The intransigence has been so deep that I initially desparied of writing anything that might reach him.
So then I decided to write a diary explaining why I see him as unreachable—despite the fact that, as I said, we seem to agree on virtually all the specifics.
Why? Because they freeking work. We humans seem to be attracted to them like moths to flames.
Why didn’t you title it, “Is Booman Unreachable about Framing?”
When you consider that title, don’t you immediately react… “but people might not have responded to it as much”?
BTW, I see that he doesn’t get it right now, but — being way into framing — but I consider it to be just a lovable, funny quirk. I think he will some day. If not, he surely has other talents to make up for it.
I don’t think that yelling at him about it will help. Just my opinion.
But I’m not just putting ideas in Booman’s head. There have been dozens of different comments he’s made that reflect the objectivist myth. I only selected a few because I wanted a relatively brief, flowing diary on a subject that really doesn’t lend itself to either brevity or flow.
What’s more, Lakoff has critiqued the objectivist myth from his very first book on cognitive linguistics, Metaphors We Live By, co-authored with philosopher Mark Johnson. And Lakoff and Johnson later wrote a whole book devoted to this subject, Philosophy in the Flesh: The Embodied Mind and Its Challenge to Western Thought
Now, if Booman wants to step away from that position, I’ll be thrilled. But so far, everything he’s written is indicative of an unqualified embrace of it.
I agree with you on the ideas of the objectivist myth. I agree with you about framing. I even agree that Booman’s position is wrong on this one. It’s the certainty and putting thoughts into Booman’s head that bothers me. Had you said, something along the lines of “Booman appears to have bought into the obejectivist myth,” and perhaps titled it, Booman doesn’t seem to get it, I’d have just hit recommend, dropped a compliment, and moved on. But I’m a shades of gray kind of guy, especially about what’s going on inside of other people’s heads.
Like it or not, even Booman doesn’t know what Booman really thinks. And it’s not just him. It’s me, too. Even I don’t know what I really think. As we all know by now, there’s this thing called the unconscious, harboring complexities we cannot possible be fully aware of–the very act of bringing some of it into awareness involves still more unconscious thought. And so, the best that any of us can ever do is to deal with the world as we construe it.
Sometimes we construe it quite tentatively. Which I did with Booman through the first of diaries that got this started. He invited me to write my own diary about framing. And then, while I was mulling over how to approach it–and had even written a possible first paragraph–he jumped in again with his own highly partisan, and deeply condenscending diary.
I was, quite simply, reflecting on the very certainty that Booman himself expressed. Had he presented himself in a softer manner, I would have reflected that in my take on him. It his own very stridency that elicited such a definitive description from me.
I’m not saying any of this to try to change your mind. I just want you to understand why I wrote it the way I did, and why I would still do the same, even though I do understand your point.
Like it or not, even Booman doesn’t know what Booman really thinks. And it’s not just him. It’s me, too. Even I don’t know what I really think.
Um. I am so tempted to go read this to my neighbor. She would laugh for the rest of the day.
I’m with shadowthief, people (or “the average American” or “the non-voting public” or whatever you want to call the people youa re trying to reach) do not give two shits about this, ACTIONS are what they look at when making their judgements, effects on their own life is what they “feel”. I swear to god (who I don’t believe in), that I might even be swayed by seeing the Democrats actually DOING SOMETHING.
That, and ONLY that, will affect my “interpretive frame”.
Great googely moggely, indeed. Get out of your heads, people, no one outside of your worlview is going to go there with you!
the average American” or “the non-voting public” or whatever you want to call the people youa re trying to reach) do not give two shits about this
They might not give a shit but they are definitely AFFECTED EVERY SINGLE DAY…
I had the shit scared out of me one day driving in the car with my sister…I mentioned something about Democrats and she truned to me and said “Oh there is something wrong with them, I think they are Communist or something”… I hit the fucking roof… but here is a women who really “does not give two shits about this” kind of thing, she is African American with children… GIRLS…too busy to research and read the truth…(I started to “clip” articles and send them just to my family to keep them from being ignorant)
I sputtered and asked her where in the hell she got that from and she said “Well it’s all over the radio”…being a “soccer mom” she does a hell of a lot of driving.
That is why Democrats need to take framing seriously and it will be our peril if we do not.
Yes, the average American is really worried about the “objectivist myth”.
Great Googley Moogley! Ontological and epistimological arguments are completely irrelevant.
I don’t think the people arguing about framing “get it”–it’s completely irrelevant. The arguments here are so abstract.
Here’s a message for you: The anti-working person bankruptcy bill passed the US House on 14 April 2005 with 229 Republican votes and 73 Democratic votes.
That’s right, 73 Democrats voted FOR this “screw the working class” bankruptcy bill, which was literally written by the banking and credit card company lobbyists. That’s 36% of the Democrats in the House voting to shaft the working people of America.
Frame THAT any way you like, but the truth is that people aren’t fooled–they know when politicians are on their side and when they aren’t.
Or, as Molly Ivins famously wrote in response to this vote, “If Democrats aren’t going to stand up for regular people, to hell with them.”
Gotta love that Molly. No fancy theories for her–and none for me, either.
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=18967
it doesn’t read very critical of Booman as a person… it’s dialogue.
It refers to Booman because his position is clear enough to use as a foil. If the same diary were to not mention Booman… that would be the less honest approach I think.
Though it would still be a great diary, and I’d love to read that version as well.
I see this diary as based on a respect for Booman’s honesty and ethical standards, using them to illustrate that “framing” does not, after all, contradict those high standards a bit.
Logic is good. Rhetoric is bad.
Logic and rhetoric are not mutually exclusive. Logos is one type of rhetorical appeal. That is, if we are using “rhetoric” in its classical sense, as opposed to its colloquial usage, which I assumed we were. Sorry. Former forensicator — couldn’t let that go.
That said, even Aristotle allowed that logical appeals, while the most important element of strong rhetoric, required the addition of pathetic appeals to be effectively communicated. Human beings are emotional creatures and do not respond to pure logic.
I haven’t read Lakoff, but my assumption from discussions on his “framing” approach was that his emphasis was less on what was communicated and more on how to do it effectively. Booman may be right that Dems are utilizing his ideas to repackage the same tired ideas, which is unfortunate. However, even if they begin to actually generate some new ideas, those ideas will have to be delivered with effective rhetoric, which is what I thought Lakoff was after.
But, in order to stay semi-focused here, I’ll just clarify that I was identifying the nature of the Platonic mindset.
Lakoff’s point returns us to the pre-Socratics, who are opposed by both Plato and Aristotle. They were far less top-down/dualistically systemic in their approach, far more attuned to the heterarchical and interpenetrative structuring of things. The Western Tradition teaches us to think of them as sometimes brilliant, but ultimately primative precursors. This is helped along by the fact that virtually all of their original work was lost. But in fact we know enough of them to piece together an understanding that they had some fairly sophisticated ideas, ideas that are strickingly modern in some respects. They embraced evolution, for example.
But what makes them relevant to this discussion is that they ultimately led into the hated Sophists. Socrates and Plato were Sophists, too, but they changed the frame. “No, we’re Philosohers. Those guys over there are Sophists.” Plato in particular invented this whole system of elite knowledge, whose political function was essentially to shut down the active political process of contesting knowledge. In essence, this was the grand precursor of Lippman-Dewey debate of the 1920s.
The wrong side won both times. But the battle is joined once again. And the battle is precisely this: Is knowledge the product of human effort and struggle? Or is it the gift of the gods?
Lakoff’s point returns us to the pre-Socratics, who are opposed by both Plato and Aristotle. They were far less top-down/dualistically systemic in their approach, far more attuned to the heterarchical and interpenetrative structuring of things. The Western Tradition teaches us to think of them as sometimes brilliant, but ultimately primative precursors.
Examples?
The Liberal Temper In Greek Politics.
As I said, I don’t want to stray too far from the already messy topic at hand. And the book is a really great forgotten classic.
That is the point the Dems aren’t doing ANYTHING… but keep falling for the frames the GOP sets up…
It has become pathetic…
Shall I bring out the Lucy and the Charlie Brown football picture…they fall for the GOP crap every single time…
And the sad thing is WE KNOW BEFORE HAND THAT THEY ARE DOING IT…
Let’s just watch how they will frame the indictments… and watch how the Dems will kick the ball again.
Here is a perfect example of how the GOP got out of the Katrina Massacre… and now the Dems are left looking stupid on their backs looking up at the sky.
They kicked the ball that the GOP set up for them and walked away with nothing…
Do you hear a word from Harry Reid about the entire Democratic City wiped out… no.
I hate to say it, but Republicans have been proven to be better rhetors, at least in terms of effectiveness. They keep their ideas simple. They stay on the offensive. They target the reptilian brain. They fail the logic test over and over, which is the best proof that humans are not terribly logical. That the facts are on our side is meaningless if we don’t present the facts in a way that people can understand. It does require some awareness of cognition. We need to appreciate that human beings learn by story, not by accumulated fact. There needs to be a coherent narrative. Republicans have done this by telling a very simple story about how the world changed on 9/11 and now we must aggressively protect ourselves. As long as they stuck to that storyline, it didn’t matter what they did in plain sight. People didn’t see it, because none of it fit into the prevailing narrative.
to the whole post. Democrats in DC have been dicking aorund with Lakoff (in particular) for 3 full years. He first met with DC Dems in early 2003 on a consulting basis. They have been failing the task of listening much less aggressive messaging FOR MANY YEARS.
I think they like soft religious anti woman chat better. Wallis tells them they can sell themselves to evangels thru environmental issues (hmm do Dems care about them?), women will be by the roadside, screwed for dreams of Dobson Lite. Or so it seems. We seem to be entering Santorum-Lite (a very dark place).
Geesh. It only took the SC 2 years to achieve a unanimous vote on Brown v BoEd.
We are so skrewed. The party has no idea the rage of women voters… and that it will spread.
Since 2003 is just two years, not three. But who’s counting?
Suffice it to say, things are going even more slowly than you make out, from one perspective. Moral Politics was published way back in 1996. It wasn’t exactly a secret. I reviewed it for the Christian Science Monitor, for gosh sakes! But, from another perspective, the long latency period is encouraging. It means that suddenly people have started to realize that this is important.
Now, to judge framing by how and what the DC Dems do with it is a very poor yardstick. Do we judge blogging by what the DC Dems do with it? No, of course not. Why should framing be any different? Never forget, Lakoff himself has never presented framing as a magic silver bullet. He has always stressed that it is part of the solution. He has never claimed that it takes the place of anything else that works.
”Early 2003” spans 3 years. We are approaching Nov 2005. I was counting. Or you can split a hair with a machete…
Now, to judge framing by how and what the DC Dems do with it is a very poor yardstick.
Yes that would be a fool’s errand…. running after fools.
O give me a break. ”Framing” did not begin with Lakoff. He was not involved in “a living wage”.
Democrats are lost. They argue crap and invite consultants in. Then invite them again. They are involved in talking, circular talking, it avoids resolution and getting on with the future.
Blogland, too much of it, excerpts MSM and falls for junk. Then spins and propagandises… And lately landed versions of “sages on the stage”.
Democrats, DC/Establishment version, are god damned lazy. That is the big problem.
I get that you’re angry. Angry and unfocused. Lakoff’s work is about getting us focused. It’s not just about framing. It’s also about his theory of cognitive metaphor, which goes to the root metaphors that are the largest frames of our political thought. It’s about understanding why people can agree with us about all sorts of details, and then vote for other guys on the big picture.
If you read my diaries here, at MyDD, My Left Wing and DKos, you will find that I write about all sorts of things. Just because I write about framing doesn’t mean I stop doing other things. The same is true of Parker, Janet Strange and others who have piped up about framing. It’s not an either/or thing. It’s a way of enhancing everything else we do.
< /strawman>
Sigh!
Don’t Think of an Elephant.
Cheap, quick read. See what you think.
And while I appreciate being quoted, I’m a little embarrassed that it’s of my impolitic snark. That’s blogging life, I guess.
And, for the record, I’m an elitist snob. 😉
And lest you think I’m being condescending, over at My Left Wing, I use the tagline:
Indeed, this isn’t a peripheral point. Snark isn’t peripheral speech. There is no periphery. The center is everywhere. If anything, snark is speech that celebrates this fact.
Aren’t we all? But some of us are staring at the gutter!
We are all of us in the gutter.
Some of us are looking at the stars.
…and feel elitist about that, too. (Especially when we don’t cite the author of the lyrics.)
Surely there’s some sort of special award for that!
I wasn’t feeling ill and achy. I feel like I may be coming down with the flu (not the bird flu, I hope).
Anyway, I’m feeling crappy and fuzzy and not at all at my sharpest, and then I am confronted with this diary. Oh well. I’ll do my best.
First: framing as a cognitive theory is a perfectly fine theory, it is backed up my hard scientific evidence, and I don’t at all dispute the main elements of the theory. In an earlier life I studied neurophilosophy.
If I feel uncomfortable about utilizing the conclusions of cognitive theory it is not because I think it is wrong, nor is it because I hold some dualist view. I love Plato’s dialogues, but I hve railed against his dualism, and all dualism, for my whole intellectual life.
No. I feel uncomfortable because it is danagerous information. Someone equipped with a detailed knowledge of how to exploit pre-cognitive thinking is a dangerous person. They are empowered to mislead the listener by going around their logical reasoning and convincing them on emotional grounds. Now, Paul can raise several objections here, so I’ll discuss a couple that I can anticipate.
He might object that no one ever is convinced of anything by logic alone and the emotional triggers always play a part. That’s true. But no one studies framing to make their logical arguments better. They study how emotional triggers can be exploited and manipulated to outweigh logical considerations.
Paul will point out that the Republicans are already doing this, and we would be foolish not to do the same, if only for defensive purposes. And to this, I agree.
The FBI should study money laundering techniques so they can detect and prosecute money laundering. But that doesn’t mean they should use their knowledge to money launder themselves.
Now Paul will say that I am conflating framing with lying again. And I will always do that, because no one uses the study of framing for any other purpose.
Even Lakoff and Felding spend much of their time detecting Republican frames to explain how they mislead the public and manipulate the debate.
So, let me try to explain the real duality here, and it isn’t epistomological.
The duality is between two different strategies for convincing people. One emphasizes playing on people’s subjective fears and biases, and one focuses on the logical and practical merits of an argument. They cannot be isolated, but one can be emphasized at the expense of the other. And that is my objection to framing, not as a theory, but as a strategy.
If the logical exposition of an argument is popular with the public (like universal health care), one should still frame the argument to put the best face on it, and make the public like the policy on both an emotional and an intellectual level. Counterarguments should be examined for misleading frames, and those frames should be rebutted both with effective rhetoric and with counterframes. That is not my objection.
My objection is to thinking that we can and should emphasize frames over rhetoric as a response to the Republicans doing the same.
There are two reasons I think this is a mistake. First, our issues are ususally more popular on an intellectual basis. Second, we will never win a game of who-can-win-arguments-using-framing.
Take an issue like gay marriage. There is an issue where we do not poll well no matter how we ask the question. We do better by emphasizing equal rights than we do by talking about gay relationships. But we cannot win this argument by stressing one thing over another. We have to lay the groundwork and let the culture catch up with us (which I believe is rapidly happening).
And if we were to gain power and decide to legalize gay marriage despite the polls, we would do better to just state that this is what we believe and get over it, than we would to try to utilize pre-cognitive coercion to overcome people’s emotional and intellectual opposition to gay marriage. In other words, let your frame be a projection of strength, rather than the emotional trigger of carefully crafted words.
Framing as a study, is a Machiavellian study. It is a dangerous tool used to manipulate. It well serves those that have no compunction about deceiving people into supporting policies they do not, in fact, intellectually support.
That is not setting up a duality, but looking at where the emphasis of persuasion lies, and also placing a higher value of reasoning that involves the conscious mind as much or more than the unconscious mind.
Now, get me a flu-pill…
Just one question…have you read “Don’t think of an Elephant?”
Perhaps you shoild read it again… because you are still making up straw man arguments.
…because he never says this : “But we cannot “win this argument by stressing one thing over another“.
Take an issue like gay marriage. There is an issue where we do not poll well no matter how we ask the question. We do better by emphasizing equal rights than we do by talking about gay relationships. But we cannot win this argument by stressing one thing over another.
with using freedom to marry over gay marriage. I object to thinking that such tactics should be emphasized over the detailed explanation of the problems gay couples face, and I think that if we want to forego logic than a projection of confidence in the rightness of our position is a superior emotional trigger than the careful use of the word freedom.
Why are you being obtuse?
I object to thinking that such tactics should be emphasized over the detailed explanation of the problems gay couples face,..
It is stated here:
For example, when there is a discussion in your office, church, or other group, there is a simple response to someone who says, “I don’t think gays should be able to marry, do you?” The response is, “I believe in equal rights, period. I don’t think the state should be in the business of telling people who they can or can’t marry.“
And when you have mere seconds to make your point to a blind deaf and dumb wingnut… that is not the time to try and explain the socio-political history of gays in the US… you need to punch back in a short POWERFUL manner.
once again, you miss the point.
And if you’ll notice, the article you cite tries to have it both ways. ‘Gay marriage’ helps us and hurts us. Maybe it does. But then how do we know whether to use it?
My advice? Just talk. Don’t try to outsmart people.
You just completly distorted the issue.
You said: “I object to thinking that such tactics should be emphasized over the detailed explanation of the problems gay couples face”
I answered:
It is stated here:
*For example, when there is a discussion in your office, church, or other group, there is a simple response to someone who says, “I don’t think gays should be able to marry, do you?” The response is, “I believe in equal rights, period. I don’t think the state should be in the business of telling people who they can or can’t marry.“
And when you have mere seconds to make your point to a blind deaf and dumb wingnut… that is not the time to try and explain the socio-political history of gays in the US… you need to punch back in a short POWERFUL manner.
Now you have come up with yet another straw man arguement completely disconnected to the issue at hand
Don’t try to outsmart people.
Yea… I let just stay stupid and let the GOP bring back slavery as a “moral value”…
with respect, you are not understanding my argument.
You are missing it from more than one angle.
So let me stipulate:
strategic framing works
Lakoff explains why and how it works
if you only have a moment to make a point, using emotional cues is always superior to making intellectual ones (ask John Kerry)
Those are the straw men you keep coming at me with, but I never contradicted those arguments.
No this is the straw man:
Don’t try to outsmart people.
Which you once again equate framing with lying.
no one bothers to frame anything unless they intend to lie. Let me try to make it clear.
Do you want to hear from your lover: “I have an STD” or “I have Herpes Complex”?
Well, you don’t want to hear either.
When faced with a situation where the public doesn’t like what you’re selling, you resort to framing.
When they like what you are saying, you just fucking say it.
That’s the way it is.
Then there are complicated issues. No one wanted to confront what Katrina meant. So, the Dems could be right, but turn people off by telling them stuff they didn’t want to think about, like “George Bush doesn’t care about black people.”
But I submit that saying that over and over is more effective than framing it so as to offend less people.
When they like what you are saying, you just fucking say it.
What if they don’t hear you say it, because they have already absorbed a Republican framing of the same issue to such an extent that your plain and logical argument does not penetrate?
A crucial point in Lakoff’s analysis is that once a frame has been accepted, facts contrary to that frame “bounce off.” The frame has given you an internally consistent way to think about an issue, and even if you’re thinking only about a part of it, a statement that does not fit with the frame is easily discarded. I read his Moral Politics and I believe this psychology to be valid, and one of his most solid arguments.
To the extent Republican frames are out there, I believe failing to oppose them with our own frames is unilateral disarmament. Yes, we can make stronger, honest frames, because our side truly is correct and does not need to disguise anti-American policies as the right wing has to. But we can’t expect to do away with the soundbite. We have to play the game.
Over in your diary you recently wrote:
So, you have not objection to people studying and using lying? Is that really true?
I doubt it. It doesn’t sound like you at all.
you are stovepiping.
I am saying that framing is used to overcome a position of weakness, not strength.
Do I need to do a study of the best way to say gassing Jews is wrong?
No, but if I want to gas Jews I better have a few workshops.
That is my point.
But consider the aspirations of those who are learning framing. This seems to be missing from this discussion. On the level of PR campaigns and messaging–I see what you are saying. I disagree, but I see it.
Up to this point, though, I don’t see anything in your discussion that attempts to understand what framing means to the individual progressive citizen on the ground who reads Lakoff’s book or participates in a Kos discussion or goes to a workshop.
That person and why they are drawn to framing is what this whole “trend” is all about. Framing as a PR technique has been around forever. MPP students at The Kennedy School take a class on it and always have. The phenomenon–the reason we’re talking about this–has to do with a spread in the idea of framing at the level of citizens.
I don’t want to repost what I’ve written already in this thread, but I am more and more convinced each day that, when seen from the perspective of those citizens who are so inspired by “framing,” we see a very different set of purposes than what we see when we say (for example) that framing is about selling an unpopular position (e.g., “Honey, I’ve got the clap. And so do you,” arguably…very unpopular).
It’s about aspiration. Specifically, framing is the experience that individuals are seeking because they aspire to become a certain type of citizen, and they see the tools of Lakoff (and others) as the means to transform them into what they want to be. It is a fundamental act of transforming the self.
And so we get ourselves all off track–we really miss the point of what is happening in our midst–in the hearts and minds of our most passionate Progressive supporters–when we reduce framing to messaging. It’s about message on some level, of course. I mean, I once took a Karate class and I tried to break a wooden board after a few weeks, but it wasn’t about breaking boards. It was about becoming a new kind of person.
Now…I don’t want to sound hyperbolic, here, but unless Democratic leadership really grasps how much Democratic voters want to be this new kind of citizen–well, then, we’re all heading over the falls in a barrel and it’s gonna be ugly.
The Republican Party has recognized that their supporters aspire to a particular kind of transformation and they have tuned into that. We may think it’s immoral what that base aspires to, but that’s besides the point. The base is (or was) working with leadership.
Meanwhile, the DNC keeps ignoring what its base aspires to be, how it seeks to use the tools at its disposal to be more engaged, more responsible, more active, more alert, more adept, and more a part of the restoration of Democracy.
That’s what framing is about.
And I am not exaggerating. You have to go to a few workshops and see that it is not really about messaging. Everybody is talking about finding the best words and messages, sure. That’s what the exercises lead people through. But it’s about aspiration.
I don’t like to be dramatic (Well, OK…I really do), BUT! We are not serving our broader goals if we dismiss–or do not allow ourselves to see and really appreciate–the fundamental change going on in progressive voters when it comes to this phenomenon. I believe the equivalent would be for us to be alive at the turn of the century and to look a the Suffragettes as just a distraction or to look at the changes going on today in the Mega Churches as just a bunch of people talking nonsense. These are fundamental transformations in how people understand themselves in relation to each other, the media, politics and the nation. We have got to see this for what it is. Too much is riding on our leadership and our vision to let this pass by.
a remarkably missionary post.
Let’s just say that I haven’t drank the kool-aid.
I don’t mean to sound dismissive, but my experience emcompasses two worlds. One, is growing up in the insular foreign country known as Princeton, New Jersey and being raised in professors houses, thinking the world revolves around what the smart people think, do, and organize.
And the other is leaving that exotic place and spending time in the ghettoes of Los Angeles, Tampa, St. Pete, and Philadelphia working with people that have an entirely different perspective on life.
Both groups are solidly in our base, but I have long ago lost faith in the Ivy Leaguers to do our messaging, let alone our organizing. And the two worlds are as different as the crowds at Dean meet-up are from the people at a Gore rally in a southern black church.
We need both groups of people. But I am much more interested in the people struggling to pay the bills than I am in the ones that have time to attend a workshop. That’s not anti-intellectualism, BTW, I am too imbred in that world to disdain it.
It’s the poor and disposessed–and the leaders and spokespeople who arise from amongst them–who have the clearest grasp of framing. Precisely because they had the clearest grasp of so many fundamentals. They can ill afford illusions.
This is not to say they are never wrong. This is not to romanticize them. But they routinely see things that just come with the territory of being dumped on. They know where the garbage goes. They have to, in order to keep out of the way. And their spokespeople have a tendency to speak of things in very stark terms. Because they must.
Somehow, I guess you’re saying that you see framing as a middle-class luxury. No, it’s the other way around. NOT framing is a middle-class luxury. One the middle class can no longer afford.
Exactly! Who has a dream?
a promisory note that still hasn’t been cashed!
It is “missionary,” although I think it’s not off the mark. I’ll admit that I see the world as changing through the eyes and tools of my experience. But I see a serious shift that has yet to be understood at the top.
Take for example the emphasis on “getting out the vote.” If we are really following what’s happening in people’s minds, we should be switching our emphasis to staging experiences that enable people to transform themselves into the types of citizens they aspire to be. That could be missionary, but it’s what people are craving. It’s a mission being driven by the missionized, not the missionizing.
And I don’t see this as incompatible with working class or underclass concerns. At it’s most basic level, the American dream is about this stuff, and the Democrativ party has lost touch with it–exchanged a philsophy of aspiration for a calculus of groups and programs. I don’t blame anyone for that. We’ve were in power for a long time and I can understand the purpose of this calculus emerging. It did a lot of good for a while.
But the nation has changed out from underneath us and we need to reconnect at the level of aspiration.
I don’t think framing does it all, by the way. I thought I was going to write about it a few times and then go back to lecturing on the marriage rites of the Ndembu. But it’s still going on! I mean, people can’t articulat what it is they want the party to be, but they keep finding the type of self they are after in these framing workshops.
Anyway, I can see why emotions flare in these exchanges (Bird flu and all), but the fundamental point is still there.
Remember, Freedom Summer was a bunch of college kids who went into poor towns. It didn’t make the revolution happen all by itself. But it was hugely important.
(supper’s on…)
What you’re talking about reminds me of what’s been described as a global phenomena by the World Values Survey, a vast empirical foundation for what Abraham Maslow wrote about 40+ years ago:
I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to see the connection between self-expression values and Lakoff’s Nurturant Parent model. What is being seen in the world is a profound transnational shift toward more liberal attitudes, and what you’re seeing in your workshops is people finding one avenue for fulfilling those needs that they share with many millions more across the globe.
Accusing me of “stovepiping.”
The Civil Rights Movement framed the plight of African-Americans enduring segregation in terms of the Jews living in slavery in Egypt.
Was that “used to overcome a position of weakness, not strength”?
Good grief. Examples:
“You stink”.
“Whew, what’s that smellll?”
“Don’t you know what a bar of soap is for?”
Now — what answers are you going to get, and what does the other person feel like? And how do they feel about you, now?
“You know, I’m a little embarassed to mention this, and I’m surprised to notice it, because I’ve never noticed this around you before, but I think that shirt could use a run through the washer.”
Answer: “I can do that.”
=
==Framing is: speaking French when in France. Framing is NOT reading the chapter from the parenting book to your 2-year-old and expecting him/her to shape up. Framing is manners — having the courtesy to speak in terms, in a dialect that has meaning to the other person.
Framing recognizes that other people see the world differently, that we’re not G-d from on high with tablets to distribute to people so they’ll hop to our adgenda. Framing just says — say what you have to say positively, not negatively.
He’s being obtuse for the reasons I outline in this diary.
He’s coming from an intellectual framework that automatically devalues and delegitimates what framing highlights. And so he will ignore those examples of framing that most directly challenge his assumptions, and he will pick those examples of framing that are easiest to twist to fit his assumptions. And he will routinely misunderstand what you are saying because it doesn’t fit into his frame.
It really is a matter of perceptual/conceptual gestalts. His gestalt is deeply wired with the reason/emotion, mind/body, elite/mass dualism. He will see this dualism over and over and over again, everywhere he looks, regardless of what is presented to him, because we do not see that facts that do not fit our frames.
Even if this were all there were to framing, it would certainly be better to have more people know this, since this would help them to be resistant to being mislead.
This is just simply not true. Even in mathematics, how you frame a question can vastly alter the clarity and directness of how you can prove it–even if you can prove it. New fields of mathematics are created precisely because the old fields were incapable of answering certain questions. And they bring with them a whole new language, so that the old question gets asked, gets framed, in a whole new way.
Thus, arithmetic alone cannot tell you if there is a largest prime. Number theory gets its start from the development of a new framework of thinking to answer such questions. Then, a couple of millenia later, this guy named Goedel comes along. Bingo! New frame!
The same is true in the realm of politics. Sure, some framing is heavily focused on emotions. But consider Chapter 2 of Don’t Think of An Elephant, which it would appear, you have never read. (Correct me if I’m wrong.) The original version is still online:“The Frame Around Arnold”. Lakoff writes:
Lakoff goes on to observe that none of these frames fits the facts very well, though all have some grain of truth to them, and some have more than others. But the Democrats didn’t do a good job of countering them. They didn’t get their own frame out there. Lakoff, again:
After going through all the GOP frames, Lakoff then goes deeper into the general topic of Strict Father vs. Nurturant Parent morality–which is a whole ‘nother topic in and of itself–before coming back and looking at the one frame that the Dems did have, but failed to vigorously push:
Three points:
(1) This is not about clouding people’s thinking with emotion. It’s about highlighting different sets of facts, and their relationships with one another.
(2) This is not about linear reasoning. It is about conflict ways of organizing gestalts of multi-linear causation.
(3) Although emotions are certainly involved in any political debate, there is nothing inherently emotional in what Lakoff is discussing. It’s about highlighting patterns of relationships, which is conceptually analogous to the ways in which optical illusions can switch from organizing a picture to look like one thing to looking like something entirely different.
In this case, you and I would say it’s clear that the Right Wing Power Grab is true and the others are false. But it is quite conceivable that one could have conflicting conceptual frames that would be equally plausible. There is no logical reason this could not happen, especially given the uncertainty involved in probabilistic data. This is what happens quite normally in long-running scientific debates between different models or even different schools of thought. So it could certainly happen in politics as well.
Paul-
seriously I am too tired for this.
You really need to try to focus on what framing means in a strictly political framework.
I’ll try to help:
Let’s say that I want to help Gray Davis make some television commercials and tie it into the sound bites that he and his hired goons will be using on TV and radio interviews. I do a framing study using test audiences and see how they react to different messages. I find that we do best if we concentrate on the right-wing power grab. So, we use that meme, or frame, or whatever you want to call it.
The important point here is that this is not really framing proper. Framing proper would try to test totally equivalent arguments and measure the effect of differenct words and phrasings, or even the physical stature, gender, appearance of the person delivering the message. Then they would measure the framing effect. That’s science not politics.
In politics, they tend to be more in a throw it at the wall and see if it sticks mode. But they still poll-test their arguments and messages and act accordingly. That’s all fine, as long as you are being honest. Pick the most convincing representation (among equivalents) of your policy and put that forward.
But in politics, when you have an unpopular position there is a temptation to overcome that unpopularity by exploiting cognitive theory.
And the Democrats seem to think we keep losing, not because our policies are unpopular but because we are not framing them correctly. They think they can trick people into voting for us.
But the simultaneously hold that the GOP has only succeeded by tricking people.
So, the strategy isn’t to change policies, but to out-trick the tricky republicans by learning their game. Now, you can claim our policies are more popular so all we have to do is break-even on the trickery (or neutralize the trickery) to win. Maybe.
I think the policies need to change, and I think the policies we are unwilling to change on principle need to be backed up with force of conviction, not counter framing.
As for the rest of the philosophical argument, I find it stimulating, but a distraction.
No, I don’t. I need to do precisely what I have done here: open up the debate to full extent of all the cultural baggage that it comes with.
You want to put things in boxes that are convenient for you to win your argument. This is only natural. It’s part of how people everywhere try to frame arguments in order to win them. I want to use different boxes, for precisely the same reason.
At a low level, whoever manages to get their set of boxes accepted ends up winning the argument. It’s just that simple, and that’s why framing matters so much. But at a higher level, if one develops the ability to think in gestalt terms, then one can examine both configurations of boxes, and then come to a judgment about why one set of boxes is superior to the other.
Contrary to your repeated insistence that us “frameologists” are about manipulation and dumbing people down, this brings us to a higher form of reasoning. The best way to present this is in terms of a typology of reasoning that I’ve blogged about before, that comes from a political psychologist at UC Irvine, Shawn Rosenberg (no relation). I explained this in a diary that Chris frontpaged over at MyDD, “Terri Schiavo: We’re Too Smart”. It goes like this:
Rosenberg also reported evidence of fourth level of cognition, but it was too infrequent to be able to systematically describe. However, I think we can clearly see part of what it involves: the ability to perceive the world in terms of multiple systems of multi-faceted, multi-linear cause and effect, and to synthesis or choose between them. Call it, for now, “super-systemic thinking.”
Framing is many different things, but at least one of them is about organizing systematic thinking, coordinating multiple causal connections into a larger gestalt, and communicating to others in terms of this mutli-faceted vision. Another is the ability to take the next step, and to think, argue and communicate in terms of multiple systematic gestalts.
I would love to have an argument with you that would necessitate super-systemic thinking. But instead, all I’ve seen so far is a repeated refusal to engage in the fundamental issues, and a repreated reliance on strawman arguments and other evasions.
I agree 100% that there are all sorts of ways to abuse or misuse framing. So what? The same is true of mathematics (How To Lie With Statistics was one of my favorite books as a kid), film (Triumph of the Will, Birth of a Nation, anyone?) democracy itself (the defeat of open housing with Prop 13 here in California in 1964, for example). That’s no reason to demonize math, movies or democracy.
Your entire argument against framing has just been one enormously long red herring. And this diary has been an attempt to shine some light on the seas in which it swims.
keep bordering on making this personal, which I am ignoring, and presuming to operating from a higher plane of perspective, which is annoying.
I have an objection to framing as it is currently being used and discussed in a political framework.
If you are going to critique my view, you need to approach my critique not from my frame, but from my perspective. My first job was to get you to define framing down to where it resembled what I was objecting to. After all, I wasn’t attacking the cognitive theory, so we needed to move beyond that aspect of it.
I can raise my gestalt to any level you define, but you are critiquing my critique, and you have to at least meet me on common ground for a moment before moving on to try to expand the frame.
My critique is specific, yet you keep intimating that my critique is general and rooted in mind/body biases.
First of all, it is not rooted in mind/body biases at all. If I think an idea is superior if it has an intellectual component to it, I won’t apologize, but that is not a form of dualism, except in the most tortured of reasonings.
It’s a bias. And a bias I am more than willing to defend.
When you attempt to pin me with Platonic Idealism, you are either engaging in some kind of trendy east/west perspectivism, or you are just totally overcomplexifying my argument.
When I said affirmative action=reverse discrimination, Parker responded with WTF?.
That is exactly what I’m talking about. She see the word discrimination and it offends her viscerally that I am willing to concede the phrase is a logical equivalent of affirmation action.
Why? The word carries an emotional power than overwhelms her ability to see that the phrase ‘reverse discrimination’ is accurate and fair as a description of the policies decribed (much less succinctly) as affirmative action.
But affirmative action is a deliberate fudge, whereas ‘reverse discrimination’ is actually a better description of the policy.
The two phrases refer to the same thing, but only one of them has any decriptive value.
(and here is not the place to debate the merits of reverse discrimination as a corrective against institutional discrimination) as we all know that women and minorities may derive no absolute advantage even when given legal preferences).
Now, do you think that we are losing elections because people no longer like the phrase ‘affirmative action’ or because people have slowly lost sympathy for preferences for people that were historically discriminated against?
In any case, I would rather not workshop my way out or our problems. Or to be more accurate, I think that approach is not going to get us out of our problems. And that is my critique.
It’s like back in my college days when the people you’d argue most vehemnently against were the very people you’d go out and have a beer with. That’s my main gripe against the internet, btw. No beer. And I don’t even hardly drink the stuff anymore. But you get the point, I hope.
Look, if you weren’t so good on so many other things–and not just intellectually–do you think I’d even bother? I think you’ve adopted–mostly by osmosis–a viewpoint that’s severely limiting. I think you could be even more effective than you already are if you were to drop that viewpoint. Sometimes you seem on the verge of doing that, but there are deep-seated reasons keeping stuck, and they just come roaring back.
You keep objecting to a subset of framing practice–a subset that I regard as either malicious (GOP/conservative framing, which shouldn’t even be part of this discussion), misinformed, mis-appropriated, or in some other way defective or, at best, sub-optimal. I have no argument with you criticizing any of this. Sometimes I would have no problem using exactly the same language that you use–when attacking people who want to use “framing” in place of defending core principle, for example, which is the exact opposite of what Lakoff or Feldman argue for.
Where I have a problem is that you keep insisting that framing be defined in terms of the aberrant cases. As if cats were to be defined in terms of those in a cat hospital’s ICU. This is a proposition so absurd that I simply refuse to walk through that door. I will not discuss very sick cats one by one as a means to exploring what it means to be a cat. Sorry, there’s just no cheese down that tunnel–to mix my metaphors and their mamalian frames. To understand what it means to be a cat, you have to hang out with the healthy ones.
I’m glad to see this bit… because I can see why it seems and is-nearly personal.
OTOH… there is this dynamic of stress between your positions… there is a sense in which both of you are claiming the highest abstract and moral ground, in different ways… and you are both making claims about honesty and appearance and all these confounding subjects… and there is a great separation in your positions so that in between the two of you things are CLARIFIED… to really abuse a metaphor it’s as if you two are generating a plasma around this whole discussion, and within the bubble the issue is being talked about in terms really apt.
I side with Paul on this but I think there is no smoke and mirrors… the clarity is real… you or those that distrust framing in politics may well leave even more certain.
I wouldn’t mind because I think that we also leave with a more clear understanding of the dispute, and perhaps with some of the conflict revealed as either not real or not really a part of the dispute.
And I second Paul’s complaint… there is not enough beer involved.
cheers.
First, the obsession with framing is much more limited in scope than seems to be the conclusion here. Outside of the digital realm, I find a surprising lack of knowledge of or exposure to the concept among both political activists and politicians. To the contrary, many people who I think should at least be aware of it are both not aware and not interested.
Second, in trying to understand your point I keep finding myself thinking “but that’s only how the other guys use framing”. And of course the “other guys” include Democrats and liberals, and me.
I rationalize/justify the conduct because there I am acting as the advocate (zealously representing my position) as opposed to the witness (sworn to tell the whole truth – etc.). I am presenting the best sides of my argument (intellectual and emotional) in an attempt to persuade. Up to this point, I am comfortable with that approach.
I agree with you that at some point, this can devolve into not confronting a hard truth by ‘wording around it'(my words not yours), and by doing so move into the gray so far that it cannot be distinguished from black. I am sure I have sinned against the gods of straight talk and truth in this way, out of both lack of talent or courage.
Here’s where I have real trouble with your position: If I am lying by not telling the whole truth, then I have mistaken the format for political debate. If someone agrees with my position because it protects the equal application of constitutional rights, but opposes my position because he or she fears that if my position prevails it will change a definition upon which serious policy consequences will arise (what is “marriage”, when does life start or end, who is the “enemy”), is it lying to design my message to that person in a way that not only stresses our point of agreement, but provides or suggests a different perspective on our point of disagreement?
More often than not, on the important issues, there are areas of agreement and areas of disagreement, often based on competing values and principles. If I am using both intellectual and emotional appeals through the logic of my argument and connotative value of my language, I do not think I will be forced to be dishonest to do so, yet that’s what it seems you are saying.
(don’t feel you have to respond right away if you want to respond… I’ll read it later too… get well soon)…
but even in that example, there is nothing dishonest in calling it a “right wing power grab”… the framing was in coming up with the perspective in the first place… then the marketing of using focus groups took over, but if the frame is not dishonest, if the metaphor is not rigged with lies… then it’s still honest, it’s still a good idea.
Another way of explaining what’s wrong with your approach is your narrow insistance on what counts as framing. According to you, it’s not what Lakoff says–what does he know? It’s what’s done by some made up person you don’t even bother to specifically imagine:
There are so many things wrong with this I hardly know where to begin. But it all boils down to this: you are ignoring that fact that this comes from Lakoff himself. This is what HE says framing is about. It’s what HE offers as a classic example. You simply dismiss it out of hand, and substitute your own perscription for how it ought to be done, complete with the very sort of loaded language (“hired goons”) you claim to abhor.
But the assumptions you bring are totally unrealistic. They reflect the sort of superficial thinking that goes into focus groups. That only tells you how people will respond in the short run to a single exposre to an expression of an idea. This is very far removed from what Lakoff is talking about, which is the long-term articulartion of coherent worldviews.
In short, it’s even worse than I have alleged elsewhere. It’s as if we were discussing the genus of wild cats, and you wanted to describe it in terms of domestic house cats in the ICU.
I don’t pretend to abhor loaded language.
I keep using loaded language to tweak you and it keeps working.
In any case, your response makes little sense.
In a very real sense I don’t give a shit what Lakoff is saying because I am not objecting to Lakoff. I am objecting to people that think his strategy is worth half a shit, who apply framing to everything, etc.
Framing is a verb not an adjective or a noun, as you would have it. It is an activity, a science, something one studies. You seem to accuse me of objecting to pre-cognition, as though I think it shouldn’t exist.
If I said “Stop wasting your time framing” you would reply “I can’t, I’m always framing, I’m framing right now.” Bullshit.
Your responses are becoming more and more incoherent to me. I hope it’s just the flu, and that it’s gone by morning.
But you can’t communicate without framing. Metaphor is so intrinsically bound up in communication that you can’t separate it out. For example:
Ideas as food
I found that hard to swallow.
I’m going to have to chew on that for a while.
It left a bad taste in my mouth.
That’s a half-baked analysis.
You don’t have to stop and think about what any of those mean. They all fit together as a set and make sense together. That’s an example of how we use metaphor in communication.
Now – as to framing is – what framing is, ALL framing is, is picking the metaphors that best make your case for you. It’s not lying. It’s not manipulating. It’s choosing the best metaphors to best communicate your point of view.
Say I go to my local town council meeting, and my councilman, after making assurances otherwise to citizens and the media, decides to vote for a measure backed by powerful development interests in town. He stands up and gives a long speech about his change of heart. I go home to blog about this. I could say:
I found what he said hard to swallow.
That communicates that his ideas didn’t jibe with what I thought, via the ideas as food metaphor. Or I could go with moral corruption as physical corruption and say,
I smell a rat. Something about this whole situation stinks.
Or I could go with treachery as murder and say,
He stabbed the citizens in the back.
You see? None of this is lying. It’s not dishonest. There’s a lot of communication that isn’t just in the actual words, but ALL communication is like that. Framing is metaphors. Metaphors are value-neutral. Politicians’ statements and the assumptions (and metaphors) behind them are what we’ve got to evaluate for truthfulness, for morality, for accord with our own values.
I think sometimes I’m too reluctant to get into the basic cognitive metaphor stuff. I’m glad you brought it into the mix.
the people I have encountered who have visceral negative reactions to the concept of “framing” have simply failed to understand it. Please don’t misinterpret; I am not accusing them of lack of intelligence or anything such. It’s only that there seems to be a common misinterpretation that “framing” equals lying or manipulating or bullshitting people.
Thanks for the praise. I wish I’d had as much success when trying to explain this in person. People’s eyes start to glaze over before I get halfway through. But then I talk too much, sometimes. 🙂
When I talk about framing, I am talking about the self-conscious activity of picking over metaphors, or the scientific or pseudo-scientific activity of testing different metaphors, or rhetoric.
I am not talking about what people do when they speak as a matter of course.
Paul keeps ignoring the fact that I am belittling the activity of engaging in talk and study about framing, and not framing as an inevitable factor in all communication.
As I said elsewhere, Paul seems to imply that I am belittling pre-cognition as though I wish it did not exist. That’s a total confusion of my point.
The thing is, though, if Lakoff’s theory has merit – and you seem to be conceding here that he is correct – then why on earth wouldn’t we want to talk about framing, study it, and find out how to best present our ideas? How is that different from picking up Strunk and White if we want to learn to write better? How is “picking over metaphors” different from revising and revising your writing to find the very best way to say what you want to say?
Now, if what you are saying is that these endless framing/messaging discussions (and most people conflate the two; a lot of people don’t really understand what framing is) are annoying as bleep, then I quite agree with you. I don’t know why I find those discussions annoying as bleep when I find Lakoff’s theory so interesting and exciting and valuable.
But, if what you are saying is that it’s worthless and pointless to understand and discuss Lakoff’s theory, then I have to very strongly and vehemently disagree. We don’t have the privilege of deciding how other people interpret our words, only how we say them. If we want people to come away with a certain understanding of what we are all about, then we need to figure out how to say our words so that they do that.
speak for themselves.
My visceral reaction to framing workshops is to call everyone a pinhead and hand them some campaign literature to pass out. But that is just my knee-jerk reaction to intellectuals that never get their hands dirty. I have been accused of being an anti-intellectual by Feldman because I value activism over theory, and an elitist by Rosenberg because I supposedly subscibe to some gnostic notions of pure truth, versus the vulgarity the masses think is truth. Or something.
I’m not against Lakoff’s theories at all. I’m not saying that we should not test our rhetoric. I’m saying that we have a rift in the party going on right now between true progressives and centrists. IMO, both sides are fucking up. The centrists think we are losing because we are too liberal on social issues. The progressives think we are losing because we aren’t framing our issues effectively enough.
They are both wrong. We are losing because we don’t project strength and confidence in our ideas. And to often framing becomes a way of trying to sell our position on social issues more successfully through language tinkering, when I want to see attitude tinkering.
Straw men:
1. my knee-jerk reaction to intellectuals that never get their hands dirty
Bunk… did you read Moiv diary yesterday… that diary was more powerful than all of Armando’s diaries about “privacy” and Roe v Wade
Anyone who looked at a televsion during the Katrina Massacre could identify with what was being said.
That is an image of frame burned into all of our consciousness and she tapped into what we all felt when we saw that… compare that to the freaking dry non humanistic prattle about “privacy”… when we are suppose to be explaining how saving Roe will save lives. It was a miserable FAILURE.
2. I value activism over theory
Here is the zero sum straw man again… this is bullshit and you know damn well because it has been proven to you SEVERAL times that is not an either or situation. Yet you keep burning this damn straw man.
3. The progressives think we are losing because we aren’t framing our issues effectively enough.
/No progressives think that the Democrats aren’t doing ANYTHING effectively. It is pathetic the cowardliness coming from the Democratic leadership. Reid has fucking egg all over his face because he came out strongly for am incompetent nominee for SCOTUS…that has bugger all to do with framing… it has to do with having no balls.
Knee-jerk means what it means. Why do you act as though I said it was my well considered reaction?
On your second point, you again distort my meaning. I am explaining Feldman’s charge, not subscribing to it myself, nor saying it is a zero-sum game.
On point three, you say the same thing as me all the time. You should be agreeing with me that the answer does not lie in framing language, but in acting pissed off, indignant, in calling a crook a crook, a liar a liar, standing up for our beliefs even when they don’t poll well and telling it like it is.
That is a frame too, if you want to be technical, but it is the furthest thing from self-conscious message tinkering.
1. Why do you act as though I said it was my well considered reaction?
Well cuz we have only been debating this for two straight days. And that was a perfect example of framed imaged invoking a feeling… which is why they spend days setting up Bush’s Photo Ops.
how many times have I read that people really support choice, affirmative action, gay rights, if only you ask the question correctly?
How many times have I heard that the people are on our side on the issues but have abandoned us because the GOP has seized control of the language of the debate?
Over and over and over again the progressives (of which I am one) argue that the centrists are abandoning the fight when they should take control of the language and then we will win?
I saw they are both totally useless.
Fight. Project strength and confidence, stand up to them. State your position and don’t apologize.
That’s my position.
Funny how for the second time you ignore a perfect example of framing right under your nose.
Centrist use frames. In fact they are in the process of turning the “Big Tent” frame against progressives as a way to justify their move to the right. Even Kos quotes “Big tentism” as a justification to let in scombags like Casey and Langevin.
Here is the zero sum straw man again:
How many times have I heard that the people are on our side on the issues but have abandoned us because the GOP has seized control of the language of the debate?
YEAH… they not ONLY let go of the rhetoric but now the Democratic leadership is actively pursing ANTI-CHOICERS and CORPORATIST all in the name of “The Big Tent”.
Again, if someone is a swing voter and disagrees with us on one principle raised by an issue and agrees with us on another principle raised by an issue, I don’t see how handing him a leaflet to support our position or just getting more adamant in our demand that he agree, will convince him.
If framing can get him to focus on the principle on which we agree and convince him to prioritize that principle above the other, maybe we get his vote.
Enhancing salience is one of the prime functions of framing.
I agree with all of this. But if that’s all you’ve got, it’s a recipie for disaster.
You’ve also got to understand how to communicate so that people will get your message. And you have to have thought through what you stand for, so that it’s clear and coherent to you, before it can ever be clear and coherent to them.
One of things that’s distinguished BT since the very beginning was your conscious effort to go out and recruit a more diverse group of contributors–starting with a strong female voice. So it utterly baffles me to find you engaged in a macho/good vs. female-effeminate/bad set of codings:
Stand up and fight = good
sit around and talk = bad
struggling working class = good
effect intellectuals = bad
Over and over and over again Parker and Jeffrey and I have said that it’s not an either/or thing. And you have repeated closed your ears to this. Well, it’s not just an either/or think on your part. It’s a macho thing. And I guess that after 20 or 30 iterations it has to be said, that the resistance to both/and is a resistence to/fear of feminization. Which is why you fight it so hard.
One of root aspects of femiphobia (see Stephen Ducat’s The Wimp Factor: Gender Gaps, Holy Wars, and the Politics of Anxious Masculinity) is the fear of being feminized, which takes the form of fear of penetration–one form of which is self-inspection, introspection. And this is what you are staunchly resisting–just as much as Bushes so famously do.
and I had wondered why Booman was reminding me so much of Kos, in this discussion and this discussion only.
That’s why.
Wow.
Oh Jesus.
Paul don’t try to psychoanalyze me, it’s insulting.
You want me to explain it for you?
The GOP wants it (‘it’ being power) more than we do. They will do things to get it, that we won’t do.
Yes, they project this strict father figure image and it gets them a lot of votes, especially when the Dems allow themselves to be overly feminized. And it is a two-way street there, with the GOP calling us wusses and us actually acting like wusses.
Part of it is structural. We are not for unlimited military spending, and taking no shit from international organizations, and pre-emptive strikes, so we cannot out macho the GOP on issues of national security. And we shouldn’t try to out-macho republicans. But we should project strength and certitude in certain areas to show our macho side as a kind compensatory thing.
The areas where we are showing vulnerability (like on social issues in the plains states and the south) are prime areas to test my thesis that we will do better to be bull-headed and unapologetic than we will do to run candidates that barely distinguishable from Republicans.
On another track, I think that we will be more successful pushing a progressive agenda the more women are in Congress (from both parties). Ideally, the Senate should have at least 35-40% women in it. Part of the problem is that men are not taking into account how women view the issues, and women are being alienated from politics. Especially young women.
In any case, I believe the Democrats biggest deficit is that we are not seen as tough enough, and people don’t see us fighting for them. This can’t be faked, and when someone like Dean or McCain uses some tough straight-talk is has a lot of appeal for people. I’d like to see us take the GOP on for being crooks, for their corruption, and I don’t want it poll-tested and watered down. I want it raw and emotional, in a come-what-may type of way.
There are plenty of women capable of delivering that tough message. Susan and Catnip, for example.
I’d prefer a 50/50 split in the Senate actually. Equal representation of the population and all…
But other than that, I agree with you. Paul, that was totally lame and uncalled for.
50/50 is fine by me. I did say ‘at least’.
I know, I’m just of the mindset of start high and make everyone adjust their expectations accordingly… then you get 40% and the “other side” thinks it’s a win 🙂
kinda like the repubs do to dems all the time 😉
Which is why I find this argument so puzzling.
It would be entirely different if I heard a rational argument from you that I just disagreed with. But instead, I get repeated insistence on fallacious arguments, which is very untypical of you.
As I indicated, you’re hardly a prime candidate for femiphobia. But that’s the thing. This stuff goes really deep. (I’m sure it’s inside of me, as well, and I was a feminist when I was like, 5 years old, before Betty Freidan even started writing “The Feminine Mystique.”)
And in this argument alone you are being very resistent to/contemptuous of feminized sides of dichotomies which Parker, Jeffrey and I–along with others–have repeatedly said should not be seen as either/or alternatives.
So it’s our fault if we don’t understand what you are trying to say? I’m sure that’s not what you mean.
I’m not trying to be combative, here, though.
You touch on several issues here which I think are discrete issues, all important, and you seem to be conflating them in ways that don’t make sense to me. And I don’t understand at all what you mean by this:
And to often framing becomes a way of trying to sell our position on social issues more successfully through language tinkering, when I want to see attitude tinkering.
Tinkering with whose attitude? Yours? Mine? The general public’s? I’m not trying to be a smartass, but I’m confused. The whole point of persuasive speaking, either to a big crowd of people gathered somewhere or to individuals door to door or on the phones, is to change their attitudes. This type of activism seems to be what you are advocating in lieu of framing, but what I (and, I think, others) are trying to say is that the study of framing can assist it by allowing us to present our case more persuasively. To communicate more effectively.
As for the issue of people who talk but don’t act, once I would have shared your contempt. But now I’m not so sure, because I read a book called Avoiding Politics by Nina Eliasoph. It’s a sociological study of how people talk – or, more often, don’t talk – about politics in different settings. It’s kind of dry and not the easiest read, but her insights are very fascinating, and one of the things she brings up is how volunteer groups tend to only want to talk about what they’re going to do and how they’re going to do it. They don’t discuss why they’re doing it, or their broader goals. That type of talk is considered a waste of time. She offers a very persuasive argument that this devaluation of public discussion is a big barrier to public participation in the U.S.
And after considering my observations of things that occurred with the local Democrats where I live, I have to agree. There’s a very top-down mentality: this is the GOTV plan. Some guys in suits in a room came up with it. Now it’s our job to go out and make X,000 phone calls. Attempt at discussion, any discussion, are shot down as being out of order. I wind up feeling caught in the middle a lot of times, because I’m on the committee now, but I’ve also been campaign staff, so I’ve been on both sides of this knock down drag out fight that occurs between the campaigns and the local dems just about everywhere. The local Dems want to be real participants – and that involves discussion and debate. The campaigns want to make them cogs in a machine that cranks out contacts and IDs. The frustrations on both sides are very real, and there needs to be more of a balance than there is now.
Which brings us to the debate between the centrists and the progressives. I don’t agree with how you characterize it. Well, the centrists do seem to think we win by moving toward the center. But I’m a progressive and I don’t think mastering framing is our key to winning. I think that our two biggest problems are (1) lack of leadership from the top, and (2) lack of opportunities/impetus for public participation at the grassroots level. The former cultivates the latter. And that’s our problem, in a nutshell – in my opinion.
Thanks for the discussion, Booman. Mostly I think we’re more in agreement than it might seem, because if what you’re saying is that you’re tired of the bullshit – from campaigns and candidates and windbags who won’t help organize – then so am I. But I think Lakoff’s theories are something different altogether.
<chorus>But I think Lakoff’s theories are something different.</chorus>
Sorry. Obligatory Airplane reference. Done now.
To which I can only add that–as Jeffrey has pointed out–workshops on framing help volunteer feel more empowered, more conscious and more self-directing in their activism. It won’t just make them harder for top-down staff to handle them. It will make them more effective advocates for change in direction within the party as a whole.
Obligatory Non-airplane reference. Done now.
but I can believe it. My reaction when I first read Lakoff was to be bowled over by how perfectly his explanation of our political metaphors explained… well, a lot of things in my life, and not just my political opinions.
I suppose it was inevitable that “framing” would be hijacked. I mean, it’s easier to say “You’re not saying this right” than it is to say “I disagree with you” and I think that accounts for a fair chunk of the … improper use of the word. That, and people who just haven’t read the book trying to talk like they have. Heh.
I’ve been to a workshop that wasn’t about framing, per se, but there was a big group discussion about the core principles of the Democratic Party and how to articulate them. Of course nobody could agree on any. We ended up with a laundry list of things that covered an entire room-long dry erase board, and then tried to group them, but they were ungroupable. And nobody would let their pet issue be left off. Or agree to any grouping that didn’t emphasize their pet issue the most. The whole process made me want to stab my eyes out with a rusty fork. And then scream at them to go canvass or something. So I certainly feel where Booman is coming from.
It sounds like that process was flawed.
I’ve been through a similar workshop process. I think that the lack of a Lakoffian perspective is at least partly to blame. If you focus on issues, rather than values, this is the sort of thing that can happen. A good facilitator can usually highlight values by helping people see how different issues clump together.
But it’s better to let the issues be articulated, and then to ask people what are the values involved in the different issues. This is better in a number of different ways. For one thing, it’s validating to the activists. For another, it builds solidarity to hear other people recognizing the values that you are fighting for. And, of course, it’s a lot easier to find agreement and see connections when you are talking about values.
You have to start with the issues, because people walk in the door with these as parts of their identity. And you want to honor and respect that. But that’s just where you want to start. It’s not where you want to stay stuck. It’s also where you will come back to in the end. But you will come back with a different perspective added on.
Your comment: “it’s a lot easier to find agreement and see connections when you are talking about values.” is very important. It highlights one of reasons I have such a strong attachment to the framing process.
Movements can stay connected through common values (perceived or real), even when the group can’t agree on many specific issues. I think this is one of the major reasons all the little tents of Republicans have been able to stay in the same camp. They are constantly talking about their “values”.
When you have the majority you have power. And when you have a majority of that majority you pick the leadership that wields that power. In that setting, I have reasonable assurance and trust that my interests and values will be served.
If framing helps us identify and espouse common goals and values (e.g. the economic populism of FDR), and that process helps us win majorities, then I will be more than happy to sit down with everyone joining this discussion and work on everything we disagree on, with high confidence that we can arrive at a decent conclusion on almost any issue.
I am confident we can agree on how to get there, because I know we agree on where we want to go.
On the other hand, if through demands for purity or unanimity, or a failure to recognize our common values, we cannot field and support candidates that give us a majority, then we are lost, because I know that no amount of compromise will ever satisfy those whose values are the opposite of my own.
… advice?
Or maybe you are.
Regardless, as a card-carrying member of the reality-based community, I will continue to use the word “framing” to refer to framing, not to some Booman-certified demonized subset thereof.
Is two opposing points of view that have convergences on key issues.
What I gather from Boo is that he can’t abide manipulating the ‘masses’ with language that doesn’t serve to advance the human condition or educate and enrich the populace, but instead seeks to influence opinion just as the rights’ use of language manipulates. From that perspective it is dangerous, elitist and propaganda of a sort.
It seeks to rally against anti-intellectualism and elitism that so often plagues those in a position to influence policy/ entertainment/ media. So he’s saying: talk about the issues and why they are important to the people… give them the facts, educate them and let them make up their own minds.
The pro-framers on the other hand view framing as doing exactly that. Educating by using language that reaches the ‘masses’ and speaks to them on an emotional as well as rational level. I agree this is an important way to connect with people… those with charisma (ie. Clinton) do it every day. But in the wrong hands (ie. Bush) it is extremely dangerous… so I can see where it makes Boo uncomfortable to speak of everything as ‘framing’ the discussion vs. speaking the plain truth.
Of course I could be wrong about both positions. I tend to come out with this & it has served me well these years — try to understand your audience and frame your discussion accordingly, but don’t pander/ manipulate as it makes you no better than the right.
You’re close. Framing as it exists in Progressive politics may be about the two things you describe. But it is also about individuals that aspire to transform themselves into different kinds of citizens.
This is where I see a real problem in these critiques of framing. They are missing the key to what is happening on the ground in framing discussion, workshops and so forth. It’s not about teachers or trainers giving tools to people. These workshops are about citizens pushing their way to the front of the room–through the crowd of elected officials and professional consultants–and saying, “Give me the tools. I’ve seen the kind of citizen I need to be in today’s world and I want the skills to do it.” It’s that fundamental level of aspiration and transformation that these critiques of framing seem to be ignoring.
I guess what I’m saying is that these critiques of framing are less a product of understanding or not understanding Lakoff. I mean, any academic is open to healthy critique. We would be remiss not to do that, and we do all the time (Paul in particular has been very good at opening up and refining what Lakoff has to say in his work). These critiques are more a product of the disconnect between Democratic leadership and citizens.
Framing is in part about language. But the much larger point is that framing is about citizens identifying a key set of problems that they see in the world around, aspiring to become something new, and then transforming themselves with tools at hand. Framing is turning people into the type of citizens they want to be.
I can’t emphasize this enough–we would be overlooking a fundamental change in our country with huge ramifications if we reduce framing down to “just words.”
I’m glad you’re participating on this.
I agree with your insight about the grassroots. All the framing I’ve done so far has been as the leader of a DFA meetup. It hasn’t been about cynically crafting a candidate’s message to pull the wool over voters’ eyes, it’s been about people like you and me knowing in our hearts that our Democratic principles are right for America, and wanting desperately to find a stronger way to communicate our values to others.
If you’ve ever thought to yourself “I need an elevator speech, so I can explain my core values succinctly to someone else, well, that’s the spirit in which we approach framing. We grassroots volunteers have considered framing to be an ongoing intellectual exercise of self-improvement.
So I don’t disagree with BooMan’s pointing out the potential pitfalls, but I think the larger point is still that this is a technique the other side uses with success, while most Americans still don’t have a good idea of what Democrats stand for.
You are approaching this debate with a frame, what I call the “balance” frame. It’s a very popular frame with the media. And it invariably favors the right, because they end up “balancing” forceful, clearly articulated lies with mushy, hard-to-grasp statements that are true, but hardly comprehensive–and that’s on the good days.
Now, I’m not saying that this is what you are doing. But it is indicative of what can go wrong with the “balance” frame. You want to be “fair” to both sides, but it’s really no guarantee of anything.
The superior approach is to try to understand each frame in terms of the other. I think I’ve presented a fairly good picture of how Booman’s frame works and what is wrong with it at a very fundamental level. Booman responds by attacking things that I already said I agree with him on. Lying and manipulation are bad, as are wimpishness and centrism, etc. In other words, he’s not even trying to contest my basic proposition.
Upon seeing this, you might then say, “Well, Booman appeals to me in certain ways, by highlighting certain things that I think are important. But he clearly hasn’t presented a comprehensive critique, and possibly there isn’t one. So what can I do to address his within the other framework?”
Given the state of the debate so far, this would be a rational response on your part that responds to the concerns that you bring to the debate, one that is not constrained by the often inapporpriate contours of the “balance” frame.
What’s more, I’m not saying that you have to buy into my frame in doing this. You can retain your skepticism all you want. In fact, if you do take this path, you might actually discover something I haven’t thought of that creates a real problem for my framework to deal with–as opposed to the strawman non-problems that Booman keeps coming up with. That would lead to the kind of debate where I would actually be learning a lot.
Don’t know if it’s so much about balance as about objectivity and trying to get an understanding of the key (sticking) points each side is trying to make… I suppose that is balance, but not in a traditional MSM sense… I can acknowledge where I see weaknesses in both sides arguments without discounting the whole.
I happen to like framing as a means of connecting with people, since I do believe the personal is political and vice versa… people need that emotional resonance about why an issue is bad or good for them or the ones they care about… or should care about. Black & white and just the facts ma’am doesn’t always work… it should, but it doesn’t.
I also believe it can be used to empower by giving strength and confidence in beliefs to those who feel disempowered when discoursing about politics (or their rights for that matter); as Jeffery mentions above.
Where I run into problems is when it is used by the left to manipulate… and it is done. Consistently. It lives in the calls to abandon core principles to just get people elected and so on… It can be damaging. And I think if all we focus on is framing the issues, vs. discussing and debating the issues we can make ourselves irrelevant as progressives/ liberals and become mini-Karl Rove’s constantly trying to stay a step ahead of the latest Republican frame. So it can turn into a vicious cycle.
I’m probably of the mindset ultimately of ‘handle with care’.
” But no one studies framing to make their logical arguments better. They study how emotional triggers can be exploited and manipulated to outweigh logical considerations.”
No one? But really, the point is that in framing you are seeking metaphors, you can seek familiar metaphors, or you can create new metaphors.
With powerful metaphors you can lie or tell the truth.
I think you mistake where all this “framing” is coming from… it comes from work categorizing metaphor… and it is advice that metaphor is not just superficial, not just for poetry and prose, it is how we think.
Abstract platonic ideals are sometimes, I think, the idea that there is one metaphor, a clean and pure metaphor about knowledge being pristine, and this is what Paul is talking about here.
100% with Booman.
Framing is lying, labeling, choosing certain words/phrases, exaggerating, emphasizing, highlighting, etc. to sway someone. As Booman states, this is inherently not good/bad, and as a technique based on an understanding of how men/women think, it has its uses.
We have overused, and overloved framing. Framing would have never had the (possible) impact, power, or whatever it has had we, as a nation, not put so much energy into advertising in general.
This is very similar to arguments I have when teaching psych undergrads about alternatives to behavioral modification (and framing falls into the cog-behavioral category): I explain that Skinner observed how humans react when rewarded, and he said EXCELLENT, lets go. Modify everyone, all the time. Make it the basis of psychology, psych intervention, education, morality, business, you name it. And whether or not he actually stated that outright, that is the thrust of much of his work.
On the other hand, there were others who observed the same human behaviors, and instead of going full steam ahead like Skinner–they in fact cautioned people that SINCE humans were so susceptible to manipulation, you need to raise/educate them to be less susceptible.
Get it? LESS. I am paraphrasing El Ghazali, from the 1200 ADs. I could have paraphrased Pavlov, from 1932. He said (in sum) that behavioral manipulation techniques used by american behaviorists violated all physiological understanding and in fact HARM human development. He warned us against going forward with behavioral manipulation, and would have advised against it even in its newest form (framing).
Today, good luck trying to let people know that manipulation is not the only way, and is often not effective at all, regardless of what the studies show and fans think of it. Back to my point in class: most undergrads have kids, and NONE, even after hearing the problems with behavior mod (and there are a LOT of problems with cognitive-behavioral techniques in general, most of which are sufficiently documented with research), after hearing that it was never a good idea to use a technique as the basis of most human communication (business, education, psychology, child rearing), after hearing a different perspective, after hearing Pavlov… still these undergrads say that they find these techniques too effective to give up, although they often feel guilty about using them, and do not think that these techniques increase the human intelligence, morality, whatever of their children. Look at the stats today: children have problems, and in general, the USA boasts the highest “mental illness” rate of comparable countries. A educational-parenting-psychological system based on behavioral manipulation has produced terrible outcomes.
But I understand that it seems that framing (or any of the other attractive techniques we have at our fingertips) is needed. We have been raised, taught, and shown that this is true. Indeed that training is illusion–and it is reversable–and we can do without such techniques for most of the things we wish to accomplish. We would do better to follow El Ghazali, who instead of opting for training, rather focused on understanding manipulation. Not imitating it, not trying to get rid of it, simply learning how manipulation affects a person, and learning to be less affected.
Once we have reversed our present position of being immersed in and dependent upon behavioral manipulation, if a person sees the need for “framing” when an emergency arises, or a similar need, then to use it for that reason would yield very different results.
This is just a baseless assertion. There is absolutely no evidence to support it.
The fact that people will continue to present it over and over again, despite it being refuted countless times is a demonstration of the very point it is trying to bury: That framing matters. That once a frame has been formed (“framing=lying”) it doesn’t matter how many facts are presented, they will just bounce off and be ignored.
Have you ever been to a Progressive framing workshop?
people think of frameworks of ideas, bundles of ideas that rush in when one of the members is mentioned or invoked. It’s just how the mind works… we can have many such inter-related sets of ideas, and do, even contradictory ones. We can apply them out of their domain… a tree fallen across a creek “is a bridge”. We apply the frameworks this way all the time.
By educating people on this, the way we all think, they will not be decieved, they will be using better metaphors.
You can build metaphors rigged with lies… but you do not have to, no one is advocating doing that on the progressive side, are they? If so, their problem is lying, not framing.
Framing is about finding the most powerful ideas… powerful for GOOD reasons, because they fit, they work well, they help progress.
It is not about lying. It’s not about manipulation.
I guess I should have read more of the background posts on this topic, but there is just not enough time.
I have written a well framed platform piece that I think is pretty good, and would like you all to read it.
Could you check out my diary: Progressive Platform: Strength Through Community?
I’d be interested in your thoughts.
ron
and for that I thank the participants.
For the record; I have read Lakoff’s Don’t Think of an Elephant. I have not been to any workshops on “framing”, so I have no idea as to how the Lakoff’s concepts are being implemented. And I do not think it is accurate to equate “framing” with lying. Framing can easily operate from a perspective of truth.
The vast majority of people I know who I would define by my local standards as being “intellectuals” are already voting with us. Obviously, Booman’s reliance on a presentation of logic and fact would most likely might work just fine with these folks. But as I said they are already with us.
The problem is with the rest of them, the non-intellectuals,(and this does not necessarily mean non-educated.)
These folks have a very short attention span for “intellectual” discussions, and generally get all their information (fact?) from MSM. Therefore, I the use of “framing” as essential to making any headway politically with these folks.
For a very common example, (one issue thinking); “Kerry’s gonna take our guns away…” was rampant throughout rural ND.
If we assume this guy is an Independent with the possibility of a conversion to D column, I’d say the logic/fact/rely-on-intellect is guaranteed to fail, while there would be some hope with a “framing” approach. (Too tired or lazy to try to come up with one, now.)
My main point is I think that there is a damn small percentage of the population who are making their political decisions based on logic-fact analysis. They’re making their choices based on their “gut” response, which is why the R’s framing works so well.
I appreciate Booman’s awareness of the possibilities for abuse inherent in framing, as that might back fire for us over the long haul.
But if we as Ds fail to implement framing in our efforts to convey our “vision” (whatever the hell that would be, who knows at this point) then both ’06 and ’08 are already lost causes.
Yes!
Hey bro. Can’t remember who gave this to me, but have carried it around ever since:
The mere fact that we have spent the last [insert time more than 5 minutes] talking politics, excludes us from “average American”.
So, for those not politically inclined – regardless of inherent book smarts or lack thereof – the “gut” is all we are going to get. We either speak to it, or we lose.
People have heard so many politicians speak so many earnest lies, that many listeners have given up hope of having “political” and “truth” chance upon each other without a mugging taking place.
Besides, most important decisions find their tipping point not in the head or heart, but in that mixture of both we now so affectionately call the gut.
This is one reason that I think it’s important to pay attention to non-political narratives… such as tv entertainment, as opposed to news. The first diary I wrote on BT was “Atrios, Suburbia, Desperate Housewives & Sex In The City”. The second was “‘The Inside’–TV w/Radical Politics From Buffyverse Alum”.
I was going to write one this week comparing Veronica Mars and Commander in Chief. I find it interesting that, of these two dramas with female leads in “male” roles, the later, adult, overtly political drama is fairy-tale like, while the former, teen, overtly apolitical drama is gritty, more politically saavy and mature. But these other issues have erupted all around me. Maybe next week.
It is in this type of narrative, including ads, that I have been seeing what I think is a change in the wind, a change that suggests opportunity for us. The targeting of at least some of the appeals and stories seems to be shifting more towards what I would classify as Dem-friendly. Not because that is what their makers/sponsors want, but because they have decided (after expending significant resources on the decision) that it is what will sell.
I always like to keep an eye on these coal mine canaries for culture change.
Will look forward to your next discussion.
I don’t know, really. I don’t watch enough tv to be able to offer such a broad view. Much less do I compare shows with ratings.
But informally, I’ve noticed more that’s trending away from us. All the “reality” shows that are zero-sum, tear-the-others-down games. Not one, but THREE new alien invasion shows. (Does anyone remember Alien Nation? Now there’s a show I’d like to see revived!) Yet another glorification of the military show (E-Ring). The most promising, spectacular new show this year totally mishandled so it never had a chance (The Inside). All trends pointing the other way. So I’d be interested to know what you see trending toward us.
It is in both tone and content.
Survivor (and its ilk) are fading. I think the most popular summer show was Dancing With the Stars – a ballroom dance contest. Ok, still survival by voting, but the appearance of clean competition in ballroom dancing – not another knife fight.
My perception of shift is just a general impression but it has struck me enough that I have mentioned it more than once to my wife. No serious attention to it or hard data, but for example:
Florida theme park ads that portray corporate CEO types thanking their workers for sacrificing their entire lives and giving up their vacations to make more money for the CEOs.
Financial planning firms using themes like ‘There’s more to life than money’.
Even a soda ad, where son opens the fridge and reaches for last can of soda, hears father ask if there is any soda left, son fondly thinks back about all the things good old dad has done for him and says, yup, I’ll bring you a can. Could have sworn the kid was going to lie and steal it for himself.
Maybe that’s why they thought the ad would be effective, you notice what is unexpected or out of place.
It isn’t like its 50/50 or anywhere near, but for so long it was so extreme the other way that going going from very little to little can seem like a lot, and it catches you by surprise.
These are good examples. Now I know what you’re talking about.
It’s certainly true that a shift from “Survivor” to “Dancing With The Stars” means something, even if its still in the same zero-sum universe.
They’re making their choices based on their “gut” response
All of these idiots who are touting this non-ideological issue-less hogwash will certainly kill any chances of wins in 2006 and 2008.
It is utter STUPIDITY and cretinous to think that people will vote for NOTHING… that they can’t feel or see
People make choices on gut feelings… and fools like the DLC/NDN are promoting a transparent vacuous agenda… it is fucking SUICIDE.
that your mindset is going to be changed by the indictments. I mean, not that you are going to change your opinions, but that you are going to be a lot more optimistic about what will work and what won’t work.
I predict that we not only will be able to win using centrist arguments, but that we will be able to open up a much louder voice for leftists that think our government is corrupt, that we need a lot of reforms, that our foreign policy is too adventurous, that we should concentrate on people here at home.
All of that will hopefully be allowed a fresh look in the aftermath of the exposure of this Government.
WHAT…???
You mean like this adminstration being caught with their pants down on Katrina… thousands of Americans DIED… what are you hearing from Harry Ried and Nancy Pelosi…. NOTHING
They will fumble the indictments too… Clinton will set up a bailbond fund with Bush I. Harry will proclaim that Dems must keep their powder dry from more “important shit” and Pelosi will look confuse and mutter something about “values voters”.
There is an old african fable about a crocodile that sit at the bottom of a hill with a stick propping open its mouth… it feeds on what ever happens to fall in.
That is the strategerie of the Democratic Leadership…I am doubtful that many voters will happen to fall into the inactive open mouth of the Democratic Party.
But I have a sickening feeling in my stomach that you’re right.
The key is going to be in just how the base responds. If we force the leadership to actually do something with this opening, and support whatever voices outside the leadership step forward on their own.
Conyers? Waxman? Kucinich?
Agree with the problem but not the prediction. The tide of “non-ideological issue-less hogwash” is the greater threat than most of what I see in this discussion. The temptation to take someone’s – anyone’s – slogans off the shelf, slap them all over our candidates and send them out the door is just huge.
You see it in the endless and superficial invocations of “Democratic Values” or “God” by too many of the 08 candidates and party leaders.
They use those words like they expect people to know what they mean and how they really relate to what they are saying. Scratch below the surface and many either don’t know, or don’t act according to either.
To make framing work, you actually have to think about your positions, understand how (or whether) they connect with your values and assumptions about how the world works, then be able to describe your positions in a way that makes people understand the values and principles that are their foundation. Like Chimpboy said, “its hard work”.
I’m not in this for any argument. I don’t even care to engage in give and take about it. But I do want to post my two, rather uninformed, cents.
I’ve never read the book on framing. It has come to my attention through dKos, Booman and by some people at anti-war group. I’m interested in reading it at some point, but I’m also interested in reading the complete works of Edgar Allan Poe. So who knows that I ever get there.
But honestly, reading the defenders of “framing” on this thread, I’m left with a couple of conclusions. These are not personal. I’d drink beer with anyone from this site. These are just my opinions, uneducated as they are, formed after reading all this as a reasonably intelligent outside observer. Conclusions: 1) If the defenders of “framing” are using the oh-so-powerful concepts of “framing” to win this argument, I think either a) “framing” is over rated, or b) you need to become better at your practice of “framing.” Because what you’ve said just isn’t all that persuasive to this observer. 2) The whole concept of “framing,” frankly sounds like a lot of bullshit. In the way that new writers are constantly finding new names to apply to old concepts. Like how many in America now have “ADHD.” As if by naming this thing has invented a new thing to worry about. “Framing” sounds a whole lot like “propaganda.” It all sounds like a bunch of talk. And I have to agree with Booman with one simple point (assuming I read him correctly, and if not, I will just make my own point). The more someone is talking, the more likely it is that the idea they are trying to communicate is probably in the neighborhood of bullshit. Kind of like this long ass comment I suppose. Okay. Tell me how I’m epistemologically wrong. Whatever the fuck that means.
Okay, how ’bout this — framing is telling your side of the story your way without getting tangled up in the other side’s bullshit. 🙂
So it is all just about who talks prettiest, right? Who says it better. Same as it ever was. 🙂
it’s about who has the better metaphor.
it’s about the idea that metaphor is not about talking pretty, but the discovery that people actually think using metaphor, and it’s important, therefore to have the right metaphor… to think with.
And it’s also the theory that having that better metaphor leads to better words to express your views.
I liked my metaphor. About who talks prettiest. So who wins.
Actually, it’s got nothing to do with talking pretty or plain. It can be about metaphor (if you wanna be high-falutin), but it’s basically what story you’re telling. Plain talkers actually frame things much better than pretty talkers who tend to be, y’know, nuanced and shit.
Framing happens naturally — everyone does it all the time. And the situation we’re in would bring out people like Howard Dean who just speak up and tell their side of things. He said “I want my country back” and, in saying so, told the story of a country that had been hijacked. He created a frame — not so difficult or mysterious, but it takes some courage I suppose.
Lakoff is giving people an intellectual or academic rationale for speaking up for themselves and ignoring stupid, manipulative things the other side says. The process would happen with or without it.
So he is telling us something that we all know how to do as a matter of instinct, right? Some better. Some worse. But we all do it, all the time. Kind of like talking. Or talking pretty.
Yes, it’s something we all know, in the sense that we’ve been talking prose all our lives. But that doen’t mean we’ve studied prose. It doesn’t mean we can write one sentence like it was Hemingway, and the next like it was Proust.
And worse, as you can see from this discussion, you have some folks arguing bitterly in prose that we should never speak in prose.
Who argued for that? I missed it.
I know. You had no idea what you were saying. That made two of us, until I sat down and figured it out.
The method is not new. Its mechanism may be explained in a more bookish manner and given new scientific labels, but it is not new. Talk to the head. Talk to the heart. Or try to talk to both. Avoid the issues unless it carries your message.
Keep your message simple and let it tell the voters who you are. Make your message show your character. Can you separate a candidate’s “character” from his or her “values”? Ok. So now we talk values and themes and illustrating the principles that form a unifying foundation that helps you understand as a voter how they will respond to issues you have not discussed. Still the same bullshit, or the same not bullshit, depending on how its used and where you stand.
The scientific polling and focus group testing of messages by Luntz and the like add new bells and whistles and proported predictability. The prepackaged soundbites that are the resulting product, allow the message to receive mass distribution and uniform use in the Republican echo chamber and MSM. But the basic concept is still the same, and is still subject to the same powerful use or misuse as it has always been.
Maybe we have not convinced you because we are still stuck in the old mode of trying to convince people on an intellectual level, while others have more effectively used more powerful connotative language and arguments like “framing is lying”.
Maybe this proves the point better than we did.
The real question is whether Democrats are saying it badly or whether “it” is not worth hearing no matter how you say it. If both apply, then we need to work on both, because we cannot afford to go on losing. More importantly the folks getting flushed down the drain by the Republicans and their philosophy cannot afford to have us go on losing. Going for that beer now.
Here is why I think it is bullshit, maybe. It is all about talk. Talk is cheap.
I’ve heard Chomsky say something, that to me, cuts through a lot of bullshit. I paraphrase, “You can’t judge a politician or government based on what it says. What it says is bullshit. If you want to make a reasonable assessment of a politician or a government, you have to look at what he/she/it does.”
Problem is, I think partly because of the study and use of propaganda/framing, it is becoming increasingly hard for even well-informed individuals to assess what a government does, in any objective terms. Like we are becoming an Orwellian hell hole, where truth morphs in the hands of the powerful.
Which is why, as I bet my friend Ductape Fatwa would say, American society and perhaps the world, is screwed. Only he/she would say it a lot better.
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state–Noam Chomsky
As societies grow decadent, the language grows decadent, too. Words are used to disguise, not to illuminate, action (you liberate a city by destroying it.) Words are to confuse, so that at election time people will solemnly vote against their own interests – Gore Vidal
You – quoting Chomsky: “you have to look at what he/she/it does”. Absolutely no argument there. One major part of what we need to do is clearly expose what the Cutthroat Conservative Republicans have done and the consequences of those actions for the voters. Same applies within our own camp for Doormat Democrats
But if the Democrats ever do get around to proposing a direction for the future – where we should be headed – in terms that are broad but measurable, I think that effective framing will help that message be heard, understood and accepted.
We have about 20 years of neural pathway ruts to re-carve that tell people “its all about ME”, “its survival of the fittest”, “government is your enemy”, “you have no power”, “wealth is the only real measure of morality, success or value”, “only the short-run matters”, etc, etc, etc. It is those basic underlying assumptions that need to be challenged, and I believe that the methods of analysis and communication described by Lakoff (as well as many others) can help us to do that.
Aha! An attorney caught pontificating on documents not yet perused!! OMG what next??
You’re in the quick sand now… but I’ll throw you a rope; I recommend you invest a half hour, 45 minutes of your time in Lakoff’s, Don’t Think of an Elephant. (It ain’t the size of War and Peace you know.) And with your abilities, I doubt it would take you any longer than that to get the gist of it.
Regardless of one’s position on the “framing” question it’s fairly obvious to all of us that the Ds are going to have to do something different, more effective, on the communications end of it all. (None of us want to lose again in ’06, or ’08.) The intensity of this discussion reveals that “framing” tangles with the very heart of our “failure to communicate…”
Looking forward to that beer, but our microbrewery just went belly-up again, for the 4th time. Guess I’ll have to travel to Not-Boston for a decent microbrew. Best wishes for success with the novel.
I’d love to read the book. But I don’t think it is getting done anytime soon. I am un-attorney-like in lots of ways. One of which — a slow reader.
Would you agree with the ideas above that the book(s) on framing are talking about a concept (perhaps political persuasion, or even linguistic persuasion) that has been around since the dawn of language itself, and that is only more fully explained and academically dissected in these books? (As some of your pro-framing buddies seem to agree to just above).
Since my higher education years were spent on the science side of the BS equation I’m not “authorized” to speak from on “academically dissected” viewpoint.
Let’s say I speak from an “on the ground” viewpoint as a political activist (since ’69).
Regardless of how long the “concepts” have been around, the RightWing propaganda machine is IMHO the most comprehensive and effective yet created in the history of the globe, and one of the reasons for this is their use of framing.
The only D I have seen who actually seems to being making conscientious use of Lakoff’s concepts is Howard Dean. Listen closely the next time you hear him. (Then maybe you can sneak by without reading the book.)
The last time I heard him interviewed, (Leslie Stahl, I think) he was very careful not to fall into the trap of answering questions which were laden with RightWing Framing Words. (You will notice the 4th estate does a very good job of rendering RW-framing nearly verbatim. Ex. “blame game“)
Howard Dean rephrased the questions to his own liking when necessary, or expounded a new thought, (as in a D framing example=>)”culture of corruption in Washington”.
This phrase/framing is obviously a very effective way of conveying Ds concept of the situation to the public.
So not withstanding all the esoteric discussion above and below and other diaries, much of which was both important and entertaining, I see the productive use of the concept of framing as simple as my example of HD’s use of it.
I think it’s essential to our success in ’06 and ’08 that we blunt the RW propaganda machine whenever possible and convey our own D-vision in a way that non-intellectually oriented folks can understand. I’m concerned that as Ds we have a very long ways yet to go in achieving that.
Better quit here as diary length approaches.
It helps a lot if you read Lakoff’s other books, not just Don’t Think of an Elephant but also Moral Politics, his academic discussion of the subject, and then the book about Metaphors, which I forget the title of, unless it’s just called Metaphor. It all becomes much clearer then that this isn’t just about BSing people, it’s about communicating in a way that gets through.
“Metaphors We Live By”… which I have not read.
🙂
I really recommend it. I read them in this order:
Don’t Think of An Elephant
Moral Politics
Metaphors We Live By
You could do it differently but I felt this order was a very good approach. Metaphors We Live By is an earlier work and Moral Politics is built off it; Metaphors hasn’t anything to do with politics directly, but helps very very much in understanding the principles involved.
also Women, Fire, and Dangerous Things, which I haven’t read yet.
Thank you for writing this diary.
I do not share several significant perspectives BooMan apparently holds with respect to an essential concept of “framing”, but I have to say I find the aggressive nature of your assertions about and characterizations of BooMan’s views as quite distasteful, and, in concert with this, the intensity of certitude with which you deliver various opinions and perceptions seems somehow a function of some sort of requirement for an over-compensatory assertion of those ideas.
It’s almost as though you are in some sense, completely absorbed by your own sense of the absolute verity of your own “knowledge”, and in demonstrating this sort of absolutist self-certainty, (not only of your own ideas but that of others as well), you are almost refuting the very point you hinged this diary on, namely the deconstruction of the “disembodied knowledge” you put forward in your diary. If knowledge is a construct, the result of a constant struggle, how can the certainty associated with absolutist declarations have a legitimate foundation?
(Put another way, there’s a big, big difference between what you “know” before you go through deconstruction, and what you know after you’ve gone through deconstruction and reconstuction.)
There’s much, much more that I don’t understand. In fact, the more you learn the more you realize how much more there is that you don’t know. There are plenty of other areas about which I know little. Or about which I know a fair amount, but with much less clarity and certainty.
But this is material that I’ve been absorbed with in one way or another since I first read The Structure of Scientific Revolutions back in the late 1960s. Or even earlier, when I first read Plato. Only, when I first read Plato, I actually fell for it. When I read Kuhn it started to crystalize the misgivings I’d developed about Plato, some without even realizing it. I did a lot of reading philosophy of science in the 1970s, and found that the sanest stuff was almost entirely neglected–old school William James, who beat the pants off of all sorts of people who came after him. James came in the immedaite wake of Darwin, and he wrote the first–and most deeply insightful–account of philosophy from the perspective that humans knowledge is an embodied product of evolution.
Then, in 1989 I stumbled across a copy of Metaphors We Live By, and it was positively delighted to find someone who was bringing a similar perspective up to date–and via the realm of linguistics, no less!
Now, you have to realize that the viewpoint I’m defending is the extreme outsider/minority position in the Western Tradition. The only thing going for it is that it’s right. (That and the fact that with the rise of cybernetics and multi-disciplinary cognitive science, the old dominant position is just being ripped to shreds, although the philosophy establishment probably won’t get the news for another 100 years or so.)
So, yes, I am rather adamant. And overcompensating. I’m overcompensating for the fact that I’m arguing against 2500 years of the dominant Western Tradition.
Fascinating discussion here, thought I’d add my thoughts.
I believe that most things that conservatives frame are only effective because they are accompanied by lies. How often have you heard things like the:
Frame: death tax
Lie: government will take your small business or family farms when you die.
Frame: tax reform
Lie: the biggest beneficiaries of tax cuts are low income earners. Government takes your hard-earned money and gives it to welfare queens.
Frame: traditional values
Lie: Democrats want to ban the Bible. Gay marriage will lead to people marrying animals.
Frame: environmental protection
Lie: Environmentalists want to ban cars and ban logging. Environmentalists care more about birds and bugs than people.
I could go on and on, but you get the point. My contention is that without the lies, framing is not nearly as effective. When you face off with an opponent who is willing to lie so blantantly and so often, you’re at a huge disadvantage. Compounding this, the corporate media seems to refuse to do it’s job of separating facts from BS, so there is a huge hole right there.
To me, framing isn’t special, it’s common sense to want to put something in the best possible terms. It’s just like in ordinary conversation, you can be tactful or obnoxious and your tone makes a huge difference on how the listener recieves your message. Framing should be a part of political discourse from the left, it’s only smart to make our message as appealing as possible.
However, my worry is that you can frame something as effectively as possible and still have your message distorted by lies.
exafugginactly.
Not all of it really. In fact, I agree completely that most conservative framing involves lies. But as the FDR quote shows, you can be quite effective in framing by telling the truth.
The problem is the American media.
The American media insists on this maddening version of “objectivity” in which they don’t take sides–even when one side is clearing lying like a rug.
The Republicans can spin as many lies as they want and the American reporters never question them–they just ask for the Democratic response.
First, there are more than two sides to many issues–but the media present the issues as if the only two choices are A and B. What the hell happened to C, D, and E?
Second, the suggestion the presentation makes in minds of viewers and readers is that, Well, if the Republican lie and the Democratic truth are given equal weight, then maybe they are both true. Or neither.
The American media don’t do what the European media do, which is to independently investigate the truth of what people are saying and then tell them, “No, that’s a lie.”
You have identified something of the dark side of framing I have watched the Cutthroat Conservatives use for a long time: Lead with a commonly understood or assumed point of agreement, for example: Our tax system sucks. It is too complicated, too unfair, and too political. Ok so far. Bu that’s just the bait. Then comes the switch: So, we need a flat tax, or tax cuts for the Non-wage Earning Elite.
Another variation is to start with something everyone agrees is a problem, then blame it on someone or something entirely irrelevant.
That does not mean framing is less effective when telling the truth, it means it is easier to do without telling the truth.
At the risk of being accused of lying, I’m going to attempt to reframe the discussion. This paragraph in Paul’s diary really stuck out:
And yet, Booman continues to attack framing, not the misapplication of framing. Why? Because, despite his brief backing off, he sees it as fundamentally dishonest. Logic is good. Rhetoric is bad. Framing comes from the realm of rhetoric, and therefore is inherently bad.
Rhetoric has been getting a bad rap lately, which I believe is why Booman and others have a grudge against framing.
1. (a.) The art or study of using language effectively and persuasively.
(b.) A treatise or book discussing this art.
(b.) Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous: His offers of compromise were mere rhetoric.
4. Verbal communication; discourse.
If rhetoric is framed as definition 3(b), then framing is bad. If rhetoric is framed as using language effectively and persuasively, then there is no possible objection to framing.
Conservative think tanks turn out very effective frames for strong GOP positions and for weak GOP positions. Many of their frames are deceitful, but that is a function of how they use framing, not framing itself.
Like rhetoric and language itself, framing can be used for good or bad. Good framing and good rhetoric have much in common. I think of framing as rhetoric that is powerful because it connects with strong emotional and subconcious beliefs of the target audience.
Madison Avenue is responsible for some of the best framing ever devised. Ad agencies have been using framing at a subconscious and conscious level for decades. The key is connecting a product with a strong emotion, need, desire or want.
We disparage and ignore framing use a powerful rhetorical and persuasive device at our peril.
Well, you get an “A” for clarity and being concise. And your post makes a great deal of sense to me, one of my favorites here on this diary.
I’d have given you an A+, but my mind got a little tangled up deciphering your last sentence. ??
All that you’ve said is true, But Lakoff has a deeper point, which goes against 2500 years of Western Philosophy. And that is why I wrote this diary the way I did.
Modern cognitive science has developed evidence that ancient notions of minds and objects are fundamentally mistaken. We do not perceive a literal world, and then gussie it up with metaphors. Rather, we see the world via metaphors–and other patterning devices–and then abstract a “literal” world from the world we actually see.
That’s because our motor/sensory systems come with their patterning built in, and with motivational systems driving them as well. This patterning works to organize the world we see, smell, touch, taste and hear, as well as the ways we move and act in relationship to it, and thus the ways we think about it as well, especially in tandem with our motivational system. We have a body core, and limbs that extend from it. It is oriented in space. This orientation has various connotations–up is good. It corresponds with being awake, being able to see far, being mobile, etc. A whole range of basic metaphoric relationsips stem from this. Consciousness Is Up (fall asleep, wake up, drop off, etc.), Happiness Is Up (on top of the world, down in the dumps, spirits are rising, things are looking up, etc.), Health Is Up (tip-top shape, fell ill, sub-par, etc.), and so on.
Our basic way of grasping the world is based on using that which is most intimate and familiar to comprehend that which is more distant and unusual. As seen above, where bodily orientation is systematically mapped onto emotional and experiential states.
Thus, using “rhetorical” devices such as metaphor and metonymy is not taking a logical argument and adding persuasive elements to it. A logical argument is taking a metaphorically rich cognitive structure, and stripping it down till almost nothing is left. But even so, the logical argument has a beginning, a middle and end. It is is structured like a journey, and like a journey, it reaches its conclusion.
We understand all narratives as journeys, and even a logical argument is a narrative of sorts. Thus, even at the most literal, most logical, most far removed from the metaphorical reality of our lived experience, elements of metaphor remain.
This is the deeper point that Lakoff and Johnson first made in Metaphors We Live By 25 years ago. And it’s been part of cognitive linguistics ever since.
I wish you’d write a diary on this — on the fallacies of western thought. I think I know what you’re driving at, only I come at it from a more Joseph Campbellesque perspective. I asked you for examples above, not to bait you, but to get some specifics on the philosophical model you point to. I was a speech/rhetoric major before I was an English major and I was quite schooled in Plato and Aristotle, but like yourself, I find the western perspective to be very rooted in fallacies about how the world is conceived. So, I would love to get a more thorough briefing on your perspective on this.
… it is just 8 bucks
I wasn’t talking to you. And, actually, the book I was referred to earlier, by the person I was speaking to, is $80 and appears to be out of print.
Even so, I’d be happy to write about it, but not right now. I’ve got too many other things on my to-do list.
In the meantime, I intentionally gave a link to a page that helps you locate a copy in a library near you. Just type in your zip code, then see if you have a library card for someplace that’s got it. If not, you’ve got all the info you need to do an interlibrary loan. I really encourage you to check it out that way.
With your background, I think you’ll really enjoy it. In fact, I’d love to read your diary on it!
That’s fine. I probably will try to locate a copy of that book or look at some of the author’s more recent work. I noticed he has one out that appears to be a trade book — the one you referenced appears to be a scholarly title and looks a bit weighty. I just got the sense that you had synthesized a lot of this material and have your own very interesting perspective. Perhaps we can discuss at a later time. I’m rather immersed in the Greeks right now, so your perspective was very synchronous.
But I haven’t had the opportunity to discuss it with anyone else who’s read it. Which is why I’d just love to get your take.
I guess we’ll just have to see who manages to do a diary first.
I have a day when I can’t get to the computer (my “long day” of teaching) and I get quoted in a diary by Paul Rosenberg.
I’m just a biology teacher. All of this high level discussion of cognition and philosophy leaves me feeling way over my head.
But I’ve heard Lakoff speak, and I’ve attended a workshop led by Jeffrey at DemFest (Hi Jeffery!).
What I took away from both was that framing was most emphatically not about lying. It is about clarifying your own values and how you see the world – and that this is the most important part of it. I think, perhaps, that it is a process of trying to understand our own frames. Then you can think more clearly about what someone else’s frame is – how their experiences shape how they see the world and what they think is important. After that, you can worry about what is the best way to communicate what you believe in to others. And yes, communicating effectively is important.
I was at a meeting last Saturday – I guess one could call it a workshop, if you must. It was a meeting of folks from various progressive groups that have been working since last summer to figure out how all of us can work with each other on common goals, rather than have our efforts fragmented. To form a progressive coalition here in Austin.
We spent the morning thusly: Each group of 5 or 6 people were asked to work out what they thought their most important core values are. It was surprisingly contentious and difficult at our table. You’d think progressives would start on the same page when it comes to core values. But no. We argued. Voices were raised. Feelings were hurt.
Not once did we discuss language or how to “sell” our ideas to the unsuspecting public.
But we did challenge our own frames – the context in which we see the world. And I found it very useful. Every time I’m involved in one of these discussions I get more clarity in my own mind about what my values are and why I think they are important. I wish more Democratic politicians would do the same.
For example – if you have taken the time to really think about what fairness and opportunity really mean to you, really get it solid in your mind and your gut, then you start thinking about whether life is always fair (of course not) and whether we have a responsibility to people who have been treated unfairly by events or people. And if you have it clear in your mind, and you really believe it, you could never, ever vote for that damned bankruptcy bill.
I think this is what Jeffrey was describing. (BTW, our group did come to agreement. Our values – equality of opportunity, community, empowerment to participate in community decisions.)
I understand BooMan’s fears that developing a very effective way to communicate could be misused. Propaganda and demagoguery have been around probably since language became a little more complex than grunting and pointing. But those of us who are finding Lakoff’s ideas exciting are focusing on a different part of the process.
(OK, deep breath, hit “post.” Paul might quote me again . . . <cringe>. No, really Paul, it’s all right. I’ve learned so much from you – I owe you.)
And Sobriety Today, Janet!
Glad you could finally pop in!
I always feel like I learn more from you than the other way around. And the funny thing is–the most valuable lessons are the ones I already know… but somehow still haven’t learned! You know, the kind taught by Zen masters and such.
In my comment that you quoted, what I heard Lakoff say was – Don’t take the fucking Republican bait. Change the damn subject. That changing the subject is an essential part of framing – it’s reframing the context of the conversation.
So we have a choice here – we can keep on having a conversation with the American people that consists of “We are not wimps!” “Are too.” Are not!” Or we can change the damn subject – This is a disastrous war sold to us with lies.
But before we can do this, we have to do some work in our own heads. Because if we don’t we’re likely to think that the primary goal is to convince the American public that Democrats/liberals/progressives are really kick-butt macho men. That whether they think we are wimps is important and we need to think of a better way to “package” the message that we are macho so people will finally be convinced. This seems to be how BooMan defines “framing.”
To me, (and I think to you) this is the exact opposite of what Lakoff is trying to help us do. He is trying to get us to see that when the Republicans portray us as wimps, that what they are doing is asinine, wrong, etc. etc. but fundamentally unimportant. That is the key – it’s not important. What is important is the frigging war. Change the subject. Don’t take the bait.
For example, see this exchange at bonddad’s diary. What’s important is not the “funding formula” – it’s whether we as a nation are OK with poor kids being stuck in crappy schools while rich kids have great schools. Step back – see what the real issue is, what’s important – and insist that the conversation be about that. Don’t get sidetracked. Don’t take the bait.
I really don’t think BooMan would have any problem with Lakoff’s message of figure out what’s really important and keep changing the damn subject back to that. I call that framing. He says all framing is lying. How is demanding that we discuss the real issues lying?
Of course, it’s not, and I’m sure he wouldn’t argue that it is. He’s defined “framing” as something that I don’t recognize as such and attacks it. Not a logician, but it does look like a classic strawman.
I don’t like what he calls framing either. That just not what I’m talking about when I say framing. I wouldn’t care – I think he and I agree on the fundamentals. The only reason I step up and argue with him is that when he attacks framing, it seems to me that he’s attacking what Lakoff is doing – our willingness to define our fundamental principles and insist that this is what is discussed – not the distractions that the Republicans would like to keep us talking about. And since I think that’s important for us to do – well, I keep arguing. It seems hopeless though.
[Sorry to be so verbose. I’m assuming that we have the place to ourselves now.]
Very well said, as always.
Framing is first defining your own beliefs for yourself and then defining the terms of debate for everyone.
What I was trying to say, succinctly put. Doesn’t sound anything like “lying” to me. But if “defining the terms of the debate” is too abstract – I’d say – don’t let the conversation veer off into distractions. Insist that it stick to what is really important.
(Guess we didn’t have the place to ourselves 🙂
Why must you folk overcomplicate everything?
Look, it’s quite simple–the techniques of propaganda are well-known: repeat several simple themes again and again. That’s been proved in every winning political campaign in modern American history. Call that “framing” if you must; I don’t see why we need to have a fancy-schmancy theory behind it. We know what works–now the question is, why aren’t Democrats winning more elections?
There are lots of reasons, and they have nothing to do with “framing” or wrapping up the message in a prettier package. Truth is, you can wrap a rotted fish in the fanciest paper and ribbon money can buy, and the recipient of the gift isn’t going to be too happy about getting a rotted fish.
It’s the Democratic Party’s ideology, not its presentation of its ideology, that is the problem.
Half of all eligible voters don’t bother to vote. If the Democrats could get those non-voters to vote for them, they’d rule the country until the crack of doom.
Now, why don’t those people vote? Is it because they look at the Democrats and the Republicans and say to themselves, “Well, the two parties are just fighting over how big a tax cut they should give to the rich. Nobody’s fighting for ME–so I’m not going to vote for either of them.”
Remember, the largest political party in America is NOT the Democrats. It is NOT the Republicans.
The largest political party in America is called I Am Not Voting For Any Of You Bastards.
I submit to you that while some of the I Am Not Voting Party members fail to vote out of sheer apathy, there are others who have made a conscious decision–millions and millions of them, in fact–not to vote because they haven’t got anything worth voting for. Intead, they get a Democratic Party that so closely resembles the Republican Party that they can scarce distiguish the difference. A Democratic Party that doesn’t bother to run candidates in every congressional district. A Democratic Party that actively sabotages the candidacies of men like Howard Dean who promise to shake things up. A Democratic Party that actively collaborates with the Republicans in selling out the poor and the middle class with a bankruptcy bill that was one long sweet kiss to the banks and credit card companies and one big middle finger to the working class.
I could go on and on, but I don’t want to overcomplicate things.
In other words, I’m not going to debate framing or embodied knowledge or disembodied knowledge or whether or not people communicate in metaphors or whether Chomsky is right or Lakoff is right–because it just does not matter.
We know what to do. Why aren’t we doing it? Is it because the Democrats and the Republicans have both been bought by corporate interests?
its because George Bush thinks he can rule like Atilla the Hun when he lost the popular vote and Democrats are afraid to try anything bold even when they win by millions of votes.
They want power, we want to do things. They fight, we don’t. They will say anything, we are worried about what we say.
Framing is a pinhead elitist distraction.
Having said that, it appears many people get something positive out of these framing discussions, and I don’t want to dismiss that.
Let the work continue and we’ll see what good can come from it. But, as for me, I am just plum tired of tortured intellectual debates about why the party sucks when Gore got more votes and Kerry may have won the electoral college.
We are fighting crooks and liars. We are not fighting a popular ideology. No one likes a crook, no one likes a liar, no one is fond of a warmonger, or a war profiteer. So, let’s fucking call it like it is.
But this has always been my style, ever since impeachment. Fight, don’t talk. Speak plainly, the facts are on your side. Win.
Booman, my point is that the elections shouldn’t even be close enough to steal–IF the Democrats were a working class party that fought against the interests of the ruling class. The reason elections are so close is because the Democrats are only somewhat less bad than the Republicans (depends on the issue, of course–on some issues, like the environment, the Democrats are remarkably more progressive, but on economic issues the two parties are virtually indistinguishable).
I agree, framing, or arguing about high-falutin ontological theories, is a total waste of time. No more theorising–how about organising, starting at the neighbourhoods, and working on up? Great God of Cheese, Harry Truman would burst a blood vessel observing conversation about “metaphors of language”!
When I lived in the States, the ONLY contact I got from the Democratic Party was fundraising letters. The message was clear: send us money and then go away. We don’t want you involved (my wife and I are “guardians of liberty” with the ACLU, active in the Sierra Club, etc, so naturally we got on a lot of mailing lists).
It’s clear that there are plenty of Americans who want to FIGHT. For every American who has lost his love of liberty, there are two more who want to stand up and fight. But there’s nobody to organise them, mobilise them, inspire them. That’s why I think that change will either come through the Democratic Party, or else will go around it–but it WILL come. The Democratic “leadership” can either harness the energies of the people or watch themselves be shoved aside.
Maybe the problem isn’t that the Democrats aren’t communicating their message to the American people–maybe the problem is that the message is coming through loud and clear (i.e., “We don’t care about you, we won’t fight for you, we’re more interested in protecting our privileges and power than in taking a risk to fight for the people”) and the people don’t like what they hear.
I agree, framing, or arguing about high-falutin ontological theories, is a total waste of time
…said as the GOP controls the whole damn government by the effective use of “high-falutin ontological theories”.
Sorry but that is just plain stupid.
Every person and every politician uses frames…some are just better than others.
Oh… here is what Truman had to say… count the frames…Address on the Occasion of the Signing of the North Atlantic Treaty
Don’t you know you’re not supposed to do that?
You’re just supposed to invoke the frame that Harry Truman was a no-nonsense hick who just gave em hell & won elections?
Facts & frames don’t mix! Emperor Booman says so!
You’ve got to invoke a frame that has no relation to the facts, and do it in the name of arguing for facts, not frames!
Because you persist in ignoring everything involved in framing that isn’t a pinhead elitist distraction.
This sort of overlooks the chronic failure of the Dems that preceeded the 2000 election. The American people have grown mildly more progressive over the past 30 years, while the political spectrum has moved sharply to the right. This is a problem that goes far beyond the results of the past two presidential elections.
Actually, we are fighting both. And this is what you just can’t see and accept. Conservatism is popular with people whose attitudes are much more similar to liberals than they are to the people leading the conservative movement. This is a real problem that requires serious study and understanding. Lakoff’s work is one approach to that. But you not only diss Lakoff. You refuse to look at the larger problem. You just get mad at the Dems. You aren’t looking at the root reasons why they have been acting in such a self-defeating manner.
I’m all in favor of this frame. It’s quite compatible with the Right Wing Power Grab frame that I’ve discussed previously.
But you haven’t won, now have you?
I’m all in favor of fighting fire with fire. Plain speaking, too. And I’m a card-carrying member of the reality-based community. Facts are my friends. None of this is the least bit in conflict with being smart about framing.
Boo is wrong and the fact that he still refuses to acknowledge the basic facts is telling…
The only thing I can think of… is that he is trying to create a fissures in the case for framing… to which there aren’t any.
Why anyone would want the Democrats to NOT to be proficient and have framing tools at their command when we are being bombarded by the GOP frames DAILY… is curious.
I think, while Paul’s complaint that it’s information bouncing off frames is acurate too, Booman’s reaction is a valid one in terms of motivation.
I feel sure that Booman wants progressives to be honest.
He wants them to be forthright.
He doens’t want to win by becoming liars.
the mistakes are all on that side… thinking that framing is somthing different than that.
I think partly the problem might be more real… what seems like confusion about the theory, or even framing in action (missing facts that don’t fit the frames we already have) miss a BIGGER point…
when we tell people to engage in framing, we ask them to change the way they THINK about the things they believe.
it might be easier if we really asked them to change just what they say, but we are telling them the metaphors and ideas they use to reach their conclusions are not compelling, that there are BETTER and MORE COMPELLING ways to reach those conclusions… and they don’t like that.
People like the way they are, especially once they’re sure their conclusions are correct.
We are asking them to keep their conclusions and change their reasoning, and that seems dishonest to them, they believe they have reached their conclusions because of their reasonsing.
I don’t have that issue myself because I accept Nietzsche contention we find our conclusions first THEN employ reason to see if we can justify them.
Lakoff as opposed to what Boo portends NEVER said that framing was the end all and be all of politics…
For some odd reason Booman is intent on distorting the reality of framing of what it is and what it isn’t.
Framing has always existed read any of MLK speeches and you will see that they are loaded to the gills with powerful frames… that is the gift of a preacher whose job it is to promote values in people.
“I have a Dream”… dreams= hopes, wishes, desires, future
“I have been to the mountaintop”… clarity, perspective, range views
“Judge people by the content of their character, not by the color of their skin”… abandon superficial notions
“The US Constitution is a Promisary Note”… it serves the people not the other way around
Booman is wrong.
Don’t you get it, Parker? You aren’t allowed to use facts.
You have to rely on pure emotion and fantasy to argue against the terrible menace of pinko commie frames, controlled by the Bavarian Illuminati, the Elders of Zion and the Spiders from Mars!
Geez.. I keep forgetting… howyabout this:
See there is this straw man and he says that frames are just lies… since I am an honest kinda gal…and I don’t like to lie therefore I don’t think I should use frames…
…. did I get it?
Purrrrfect!
write diaries on this… you’ve done some excellent posts.
people need to understand THESE are frames… was Truman LYING about being a good neighbor? Was MLKjr lying about the mountaintop or that his idea, his goal, involved having a dream?
No, and obviously not.
I think we might get further with these examples.
Is any of that “propaganda”? No. It’s a toolkit… these are ways to understand the sentiment being given.
Parker, Booman’s point, as I take it, is that we don’t need ANY MORE THEORIES–we need ACTION.
We know what to do–but we aren’t doing it.
Point
So much so, that I’m sure that Booman himself does not really believe it.
Exactly…Boo keeps invoking a zero sun game which is completely false. This is not an either or situtuation…I think Democrats should be able to chew gum and walk at the same time…don’t you?
theories are how you AIM actions.
ideologies are your compass for actions.
we need to make our actions more efficient.
It Is
(1) Framing and propaganda intersect. They are not the same.
(2) Lakoff never claimed to have invented framing. But he is introducing and explaining it to a large group of people who have never thought about it systematically, and reflected on how it helps organize their political work, and explain some of their strengths and weaknesses.
(3) Lakoff is doing more than just talking about framing. He is also talking about root metaphors that structure our politics, liberal vs. conservative.
(4) All the things you point to as problems are real. But so is framing. It’s not an either/or choice. Nor is the situation you describe new. The Democrats represented corporate interests in the past as well. We are the only advanced industrial country to never have had a left party represented in our national legislature.
But things have changed in US politics dramatically over the past 30 years while the political views of the American people have by and large not. Part of the reason is that the right organized itself in a very disciplined way, and framing was a part of the story of how they did that. Not the whole story, not by a long shot. But a part of it. And if framing just gave us even a little edge, it would be enough to start turning the tide back again, and then all those other factors would gain traction as well.
Sure, the Democrats aren’t nearly as populist progressive as I’d like them to be. But they still are significantly different from the Republicans. And lots of people either don’t realize that, or don’t realize what it means. There’s a huge gap between what they say they want, and how they vote, or how they rationalize not voting. And framing can help us close that gap.
There is an overlap.
Propaganda “works” because of congitive reality, and framing is part of a study of cognitive study.
But it’s about getting better fish, the wrapping takes care of itself.
Lakoff has stated this.
There is really no better explanation why so many keep REFUSING to accept this information about the theory they are discussing than the one than Paul presents… that it is bouncing off… it just MUST be about propaganda.
It’s about ideas.
Metaphor and ideas.
The relation to propaganda is slight and indirect… it’s not a LIE when Republican’s call it “tax relief”… that’s how they REALLY feel, they cast it how they really feel.
Compare that to how Dems cast their Robert’s votes… how the hell do THEY really feel?
My brief 2 cents. The overiding problem is that the Democratic leadership has not taken the lead in framing. Republicans have framed effectively (for their purposes) and unfortunately they have filled the void and framed on our behalf. Democrats are only reacting, they are not setting the frame. As to BooMan’s arguments, I see his concern in the manner in which framing has been used by Republicans, a manner that is something less than honest. That is unfortunate but framing is not only the shady version used by Republicans. It is much more. I understand his concerns but that is more reason for Democrats to take the lead in framing.