Welcome to the FBC….if you are new or a lurker who has not posted yet, please come on in and tell us about you and have some fun splashing around with the rest of us.
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Welcome to the FBC….if you are new or a lurker who has not posted yet, please come on in and tell us about you and have some fun splashing around with the rest of us.
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Cafe is open for business, sorry it is so bare bones today, hard to get it all stocked so early in the morn. but there is coffee and doughnuts or pastries, so help yourself…
Good Morning Diane!
Sitting with a some hot chocolate this morning…on a cold wet San Francisco morning. I’m glad that winter is here…I love the settling in and hibernating that comes with winter.
How is the move going?
Hi Sally, you might actually have a little winter where you live,…we have precious little down here in the southern part of the state…ok it does get a little colder…some days…but you know if temp drops to 60 here we are freeeeeezzzing….
Good mornoonevenight everyone! I had a relaxing weekend, finally able to recharge my brain and spirit. Today begins a strict regimen of healthier eating and working out, wish me luck!
Good luck to you manee, haven’t had a chance to talk to you lately….glad to see you have had a chance to recharge. I am with you on the healthier eating which I have been trying to do as well…means cooking myself instead of TV dinners…
Have a great day and week and best of everything and hugs too…..that should keep you well stocked with necessities.
Good luck with the healthy eating and exercise change.
Only one observation – be strict but take time to indulge yourself once in a while. Remember that small quanities of dark chocolate or red wine are healthy. Both contain wonderful heart healthy enzymes and anti-oxidants…
So, when thinking healthy, remember dark chocolate is a good thing! And dark chocolate makes us all smile!
It’s been a while, so I may be out of date, but I recall a couple of years ago reading a followup on the initial studies showing that “2” daily glasses of wine or other alcoholic beverages gave heart benefits.
Evidently the actual number was closer to 3, but most people were embarassed to report the quantity they were actually drinking.
And I’m sure this has an ancestry component to it. Europeans have lived with alcohol for millennia where as some other populations have not. We probably killed off many of our families who were most intolerant of it long ago.
The book that I’ve been working with is for women. But their guidance is one glass of red wine or a maximum of .75 ounces of dark chocolate.
In our house we’re on a diabetes prevention and reduction of cholesterol lifestyle change. The word diet is prohibited. Since both of these treats are bad for the pre-Type II diabetes, we only indulge once or twice a week. Then we make a trade off by giving up a pasta or bread component.
With the onset of winter clear soups with long grain wild rice and chicken or seafood and vegetables have been a boon to the total menus. Filling, nourishing, warm, and has all the goodies for nutrition.
Puget4 and I got serious about 6 weeks ago when she got a cholesterol scolding, reinforced with a discussion of what her family history implies for her in the forseeable future. We don’t know if it’ll solve that problem for her without drugs so she’s going back for a blood test in 3 months.
Even though we’re just taking the baby steps with exercise, the diet change alone (to no warm-blooded meat or shellfish, artificial treats or light starches; a serious reduction in fat; and big increase of fish and vegetables) has already taken over 10 pounds from her and 6 from me in a little over a month. She’s also doing some of the common supplement and oat bran things for cholesterol.
The biggest thing I’ve had to learn is to accept feeling a little hungry between meals and right at the end of meals. I think the exercise will be the hardest thing to get Puget4 to do. Our two toto dogs are very old now and no longer run & trot on walks. We do have the benefit of a flight-and-a-quarter steps between our living quarters and the ground and the craft shop. I’m on the stairs 30 times a day minimum, but we need to set aside half an hour to walk most days–and here in the Pac NW it’s dark outside of work hours for 4-5 months of the winter.
Good morning, everyone!
We had a busy weekend, with the family splitting up into two factions to accomplish what we had to do. The older of the two boys who are still at home auditioned for theatre scholarships and got callbacks from 13 of the 18 schools. The trick is he doesn’t really want to major in theatre (thank goddess as one in the family is enough!) but the scholarship money will certainly come in handy. One school in particular offered him an attractive package but halfway into their presentation he realized it was a Baptist university with a “christian perspective” and that kind of spooked him. We’re awaiting word from the other schools.
The younger boy tested for his Bo Cho Dahn belt in tae kwon do, which is one level lower than black belt. This is a boy who is very quiet and disinterested in most things, and with the educational problems that have plagued him because of ADD (the quiet kind with no hyperactivity) his self-confidence is sometimes hard to find. Sticking with tae kwon do for over two years has really built that up although his is still very quiet and not interested in building friendships. During the test he attempted to break a cinder block with his hand and he tried 4 or 5 times unsuccessfully before they switched it to a two-inch thick piece of pine which he broke on the first try. He was so down on himself about the cinder block and remained despondent the rest of the day. I saw later that he had crumpled up his certificate and thrown it away.
Here’s a picture from my neighborhood walk this morning. It’s kind of a bummer colorwise this fall due to an ongoing drought with most of the trees just yellowing or drying out.
Meanwhile, back in my yard, the choice is clear…do yardwork or suspend myself between two trees and look at the sky.
Hi Laura, your pics are lovely this morning, seems like you have about the same kind of fall as we have here.
So what are you doing just for yourself today????
Still trying to wake up. I so dislike Mondays. I hope everyone had a nice weekend. We had a little snow on Saturday morning but the afternoon was wonderful so I took my dog to the dog park. He just loves it there
We don’t have snow yet (leaves are falling, though), but we took the 3 canines for a nice walk yesterday. Seventy degrees, sunny, and beautiful fall colors. It almost seems weird to think Thanksgiving is little more than 2 weeks away.
I just got back on this page and noticed that on my rating thingy for you it said 3.85…did I do that to you? If I did you have my deepest apology..I hope it wasn’t me I do not give 3’s
It happens…I wasn’t worried about it! 🙂
Got back from World Fantasy late last night. It was a great weekend, but it’ll be a couple more days before I’m recovered. I didn’t get chance to talk to Patricia McKillip, but I did say hi to Charles DeLint. Mostly it was hanging out with old friend and new up and comers rather than big names.
The weirdest thing was that it turns out I’m visible enough to be schmoozeworthy now. Kind of cool in a weird way. I’ll try and put together something like a coherent narrative in a couple of days and decide whether there’s enough to diary.
I did experiment with the Booswarm at the free bar in the Governor’s club lounge. The basic is pretty good, but if you dial back the lemon juice and swap sour of soda, it’s absolutely lovely.
Just plain old Earl Gray for today’s tea. See you all later.
Okay, so I’ve got the beginnings of another feminism diary kicking around in my mind, this one much less theoretical than my last one (which was in large part for theory geeks), and I want to ask for topical suggestions before I do too much unnecessary work.
I’ve noticed that there still seems to be some confusion even on the left as to what feminism is about, what it is and isn’t, and why it’s so crucial to liberal politics. I’d like to host a conversation about that here, where people can hopefully feel comfortable speaking frankly and asking direct questions (also so some misperceptions can be corrected), but before I do it I wanted to put the idea out in a cafe/open thread or two so I could hopefully get feedback on more specific topics.
For example, I noticed in the recent conversation we had about the absinthe ad that at least one poster did not seem to understand the difference between sexual representation, and sexual objectification. (Of course, the line in between these two things is just as blurry and subjective as the line in between “erotica” and “pornography”, so the feminist concern here is not about telling someone else what to think but rather about making sure that people understand the concepts well enough to think critically and come to their own opinion in each context.) Do people think this is a common enough misunderstanding that it would be useful to structure the diary to discuss it as one of the primary topics? The conservative right loves to smear feminists alternatively as both sexless spinster aunts as well as cheap easy sluts, neither of which is any more categorically true of feminists than any other group of women, but unfortunately these talking points wind up coming out of liberals as well, so I definitely think we should talk in more detail about feminism and sex.
Does anyone have any other suggestions for common misunderstandings, or conversations we should have in the community so that people who are unfamiliar with feminism and feminist politics can learn more, and hopefully feel more comfortable supporting feminist positions and joining in the conversations about feminist issues?
I recently went back and read your gender diary after just skimming it when it first came out. I was so intimidated by it right from the start, but after I got to ‘know’ you a little, I thought it was important to go back and really read it this time and try to understand it. Whereas the first time I read it my instantaneous reaction was “boy is she smart” the second time I read it my reaction was “boy am I dumb.”
I would really enjoy and benefit from a discussion on feminism with an eye toward how it relates to me and my life. I like to think of myself as a feminist, but in reality I am completely dependent on my husband financially, and on my role as a mother for my identity. That’s a huge disconnect for me and it’s at the root of why I feel so lost and so empty sometimes.
You are not dumb. You are obviously very bright.
If it helps, from my pov your financial dependency status and mother-identity role really have nothing to do one way or the other with your status as “feminist”. For me, the core of feminism is about considering all people generally to have equivalence of value regardless of sex, so if you believe in that, you’re a feminist. Choosing to be a stay-at-home mom is a perfectly feminist option in my view.
All feminists are, of course, different. 🙂
Thanks for the response, though, because that definitely helps me with the right introduction for this next diary — which, I promise, will be much more conversational and not so dorky with all the heavy theory.
Thanks, but I think when one claims the identity of feminist, one ought to have some idea of who she is independent from her children, and she ought to have the ability and drive to support herself. So I feel like a fraud saying I am a feminist.
Being a feminist is a way of thinking, not a definition of career women. Some of the strongest feminists I know are stay-at-home moms. They are the ones fighting in the trenches for equal education, equal sports funding, teaching children equality and self confidence.
Never sell yourself short for staying at home. Feminist means we have a choice and we are strong in our beliefs whichever path we choose at this point in time.
Hm. I’m torn between respecting your right to define yourself, going all maternal and trying to mother you into feeling better, and trying to convince you that my brand of feminism would happily welcome you in and then support and facilitate any identity changes (or none) that you’d want to make (or not).
Seriously, you might be surprised to learn how many feminists have struggled with that exact identity issue. I will definitely write about it in the diary, probably right at the beginning, since it almost certainly functions as a way to exclude women such as yourself from feminism, and that is very bad, because we need you. 🙂
I think you’re right that women like me may not feel comfortable under the umbrella of feminism because it suggests a level of independence that is difficult to claim if you are living off of someone else’s paycheck.
I made stupid choices as a young woman out of fear but I recognize that the choices were mine to make and I did the best I could with the ones I made to achieve a positive outcome.
Maybe women like me too readily accept these vapid little labels like “soccer mom” and “stay at home mom” and then we think that’s all we can ever be.
There’s a whole structure in culture that is aimed at keeping you thinking that way. Don’t fault yourself for buying into it — it’s like faulting yourself for getting a commercial jingle stuck in your head, you can’t avoid it when you’re constantly immersed in it.
Yes, we should talk a lot about value; who decides which things have how much value; power; and the various ways in which social power affects people’s choices.
I think that’s it for me. Growing up poor, I now value money and earning power above everything else that I do for my family. My husband earns the money therefore he has the power. It sucks. It’s wrong and I know it, but it’s from so long ago in my childhood that I can’t disown it no matter how stupid it is.
My ex-husband (who usually was a fairly reasonable person) once told me that he thought it was perfectly fair that his first wife did all the housework when they were married because he earned more money than she did, so it was only fair for her to “make up” for that somehow.
Well.
I pointed out to him that both he and his then-wife had dropped out of college when they got married, but he had been lucky enough to get a job as a radio newscaster. However, in that line of work moving up generally meant moving on to another town. Every time he got a new job, he naturally expected his wife to quit her job and find a new one (generally food service). Further, he insisted that they work the same hours–and since he usually started out a new job on the late shift, that curtailed his wife’s options (hence the food service). Because her job choices were entirely secondary to and limited by his, it was hardly fair to expect her to be able to make as much money–not to mention the fact that she was much less likely than he was to find her work at all fulfilling.
Add to that the general sex-based disparity in pay, no matter what the job.
By the end of my tirade, he sheepishly acknowledged that he had indeed been an ass.
And while we were married, neither one of us did much in the way of housework.
Raging Hippie, I’m so glad you wrote!!
We don’t have that argument in this house. When my husband was in the Navy I had to switch jobs several times. I always made more than he did (due to the military paying our troops shit.)
The military makes no bones about it – women come second. I was offered a really great job in the airlines and we asked the Navy if my husband could be transfered with me – to Japan. No go cause I was “the dependant”… UGH.
No matter how many times I hear a story like this, the outrage from the next one is never bleeping lessened (word bleeped out of courtesy for Diane hosting the cafe, I know she doesn’t like that word). This automatic hierarchy based on sex makes me insane. Grrrr.
And yet somehow the anti-feminist propaganda was still convincing enough to keep you away from us until lately.
Strong, the dark side is…
/Little Old Green Jedi Dude
I have a husband that believes I can do anything 🙂 He wasn’t too happy with the Navy refusing to transfer her at that time.
Plus, You’ve guys have always had me – I get around. 🙂 I’ve just never really labeled myself anything other than a “humanist”… untill recently when at the march I said… damn… I’m a Liberal.
Doncha love it–if the husband makes more money, then making more money is what matters. If the wife makes more money, then the nature of the husband’s job is what matters.
I was raised to believe that it’s selfish to put my needs ahead of anybody else’s and that it’s evil to be selfish. I’ve met some women, but many more men, who have grown up believing that being selfish is their birthright. And women raised like me seem to be a magnet for those men.
I’ve made some monumentally stupid career choices just to keep whatever man happened to be in my life happy. Not once did whatever-man ever recommend that I step back and consider what would be best for me. Which explains why none of the whatevers are part of my life anymore. I’ve finally outgrown my upbringing and learned that entirely selfless and entirely selfish are equally damaging ways to live.
I want to make a couple of points here before you guys stage a June Cleaver intervention.
This is my second marriage, and all of my kids are from my first, long-term marriage. During that marriage my husband worked outside the home and I worked inside the home. I did not feel guilty about that because it was a partnership and these decisions were made jointly.
It’s weird in second marriages when there are kids involved because you don’t really have that shared vision that you have when the nuclear family is intact. There are expectations and financial boundaries that are way different this time around. I feel guilty not working when my husband is supporting these children that aren’t even his. I do get a small amount of child support, but that only covers clothing and haircuts and school field trips and incidental things like that.
Second thing…he never complains or makes snide comments. But there is this expectation, now that the kids are almost grown, that I will now move onto something else outside the home. I can’t say that this is only coming from me. I think he is concerned that I seem so bored and inconsolable about the active part of mothering coming to an end and we wants me to find something meaningful to replace it.
. . . of “what now” when it comes time for him to retire. That’s what you’re looking at, after all–the end of a long career of child-raising. And post-retirement letdowns are very common.
Does he love them and care for them? Did he not become their father when he married you?
If you are unhappy, it is natural that he will worry about this. My awkward male notion of feminism is that it has to do with women deciding for themselves what to do with their lives, whether that is managing a home, raising children, or training wild buffalo to commit synchronized swimming.
What do you want to do?
Unsolicited Advice Warning (There does not seem to be a medication to stop these attacks)
You are not the first parents to turn around one day and notice that all the children are taller than their mother and not a single one still requires your help in the areas of personal grooming, homework assistance or snack preparation, and most of them have either left home, are packing, or making wedding plans.
Consider your interests, your passions, you are fortunate to have resources to pursue them.
Talk to your husband, and talk to yourself.
You will always be the children’s mother, even when they are grandparents, and you will still tell them what to do. Do not fear that this will cease.
And you have always been your own person. Love your family, let them love you, and most of all, love yourself.
Thanks for the advice, and it was not unsolicited! In laying this all out here I’m pretty sure I was looking for exactly that because I seem to have lost the ability to guide myself along.
I don’tknow why I think of the kids as “not his children”…besides the fact that they do have a biological father, though distant, and my husband has his own kids from marriage number one, though also distant.
You’ve given me something to think about, and discuss with my husband this evening.
thought of them as not his. I think that would be very painful for him, as it sounds like he has been being their father for some time.
The father is not the man who pays for the haircuts, but the man who messes the hair up and tells the boy it looks like the favorite superhero or music video star, or Godzilla, depending.
Their father is still in their lives…sort of. Monthly phone calls, birthday cards, a week in the summer, etc.
I guess I always subscribed to the belief that my husband should not try to replace their father. I wish there was a guidebook on how to navigate second marriages/families.
and that is good that there is some contact. The kids are fortunate to have that good relationship with the biological father.
But his role is not that of the every day father, who trips on their skates and listens to tales of ballgames won and sweaters lost. 😉
Give yourself credit for making what frequently is a very complicated situation functional and loving!
At the delightful age of 27 I became step-mother to 2 teenagers…14 and 16….acccckkkk….and that was the first 5 years. I physically can not have children without serious health risks. Their mother was ‘around’ – for random visits – for school graduations, for marriages, for birth of children, and all the high points. She visits maybe 2 times a year.
I was there with their dad, working inside and outside the home, to to make sure there was food on the table, to do the laundry and clean the house, to listen to heart breaks on breakups with boyfriends, to take them to the doctor and make sure there was a Christmas dinner and presents. Real Mom got some the special stuff…Step-mom got the fights and squabbles.
23 years later in this marriage – they are my children…of my heart if not my blood.
I was as devastated as anyone when my step-son was killed by a drunk driver. The feeling of having my heart ripped out still hurts to write about 9 years later
I am the one there every month to visit grandkids and to call for school events.
I am the one there for every birthday party for step-daughter and grandkids.
I am the one taking the kids on weekend camping trips.
The hugs from my step daughter when we visit are real…and she is my daughter and knows she is loved as such.
The grandkids only know grandparents…they have 5…
If we love them they are ours…
/End of step-parent rant
My other reply to you sounds more preachy than I meant it to be but you make me worry because I see you so often devalue yourself when the quality of the person you are just blasts through every post you make. You clearly are intelligent, caring, witty, and thoughtful and I wish I could do something to help you trust yourself.
No, it didn’t sound preachy. I always have a problem believing that I bring much of value to the table. When my kids were little I at least felt like I was doing something vital by being there with them (even though I slept through a good part of their childhood due to depression) but now that they’re 15, 17, 21 and 24 I feel tremendous guilt staying home alone during the day, but I lack the initiative or courage to branch out. Ack!…I hate that feeling.
Here’s where everyone will be moved to give me perfectly sensible advice i.e. I should go back to school, volunteer, get a job….etc. I have no excuse for not doing any of this except that I have developed over the years a form of agoraphobia (or social anxiety whatever you want to call it) and to be honest, after raising 4 kids nothing else seems as appealing or important.
I really appreciate your support, and, just so you know, you made me cry again. :0)
I think the door closing on most stay-at-home women are…
The fear of having to SuperWoman.
The fear of being categorized… judged by other women.
Having to be ALL things to ALL women.
When instead, I’ve been trying to be All “ME”. I’m still trying to figure out what I want to be when I grow up… and it sure isn’t a woman who has burned the candle at both ends because she feels the need ti impress others rather than address her own needs and wants. 🙂
make you cry again (is this something I do regularly?).
Here have a laugh on me, literally
.
Seriously, though, here’s a way to look at your situation. You’ve had your career which has lasted over 24 years. Now you’re getting ready to think about retirement and what it should be like. Most people do not feel obliged to start a second career in retirement; instead they think about what they would like to do with their new found freedom. You’ve done your bit for society; now it’s your turn and there’s no reason you should have to feel pressured to do anything in particular or at all — otherwise, it ain’t much of a retirement.
the Religious Reich have been using the same arguments to convince their female base that they can’t be feminists. And of course you’ve got the old Limbaugh “Feminazi” canard, and this past week the conservative comic strip “Mallard Fillmore” featured their version of a “feminist”, namely a speaker from “Women Against Men”. (That strip alone is probably responsible for at least part of my high blood pressure…it’s right next to “Overboard” in our local fishwrap so it’s hard to avoid…)
It’s all a matter of choice — a feminist recognizes the choices made in her life, but wants her daughter (or friend’s daughters, or granddaughters) to have even more choices available.
but you are giving in to a view of the value of your choices that is anti-feminist. Of course, your children are an integral part of you — you helped make them what they are; they helped make you what you are. Your identities will always be entwined. You built a life that was what you wanted — feminism understands that your choices are valuable to you, your family and society; you should too.
As a career woman, I’d like to see some discussion of the perceptions between young women moving into the work place and those of us that fought to get here.
Years ago we fought tooth and nail to get past the ‘typing pool’. For years I denied knowing how to type, including pretending to hunt and peck when computers first came out. Having been in management for 10 years or so now, I still find the glass ceiling in place outside of metropolitan areas.
Now there are young women that have worked for me that consider that there is no sex or age discrimination in the workplace. I work hard on mentoring and teaching them, but sometimes I just give up and hire ambitious men instead. Interestingly the young men are more attune to work attitudes than the women.
Ah yes, my younger sister (age 24) thinks there is no discrimination left simply because she believes she has never experienced it.
Have you seen Ampersand’s wage gap series at Alas? Excellent series for this sub-topic of feminist concern.
I may have to start planning two diaries. This is good. 🙂
Interestingly the young men are more attune to work attitudes than the women.
Not to challenge you, because I’m not out there hiring and managing people, but what’s piquing my interest on this is that I have never heard mention of a study showing that men actually get more work accomplished than women. They always seem to show women to be more productive than men.
It wouldn’t be the first aspect of human resource management where attitudes could point clearly in one direction while the bottom line of productivity could point in the opposite direction. I recall the famous statisticians’ study of baseball recruiting some years ago that showed scouts were consistently selecting for traits that proved not to correspond to the best on-field performance.
Just wondering out loud from the sidelines.
This could be an entire sub-diary on work ethics. It is my perception that if we work as a team the benefit is to everyone. In my 25 years of working I’ve seen and learned a lot. Looking for people with personality styles and traits that are trainable is my key recruiting staff.
The places where companies have succeeded, management shared and mentored their staff. Places where people lived in their safe little boxes, businesses stagnated. The young men (>75% of the time) like change and growth. The young women (again >75% of the time) do not like change.
As someone in a position of hiring, what I look for are self-motivated individuals. Did they go advance exponentially in their work? Were they promoted to ever more responsible positions? If they are young and only have a couple of years experience, what did they do with the training received and education that they have?
My motto as a manager is “If you are not replaceable you are not promotable”.
-Has someone documented their work so someone else can fill in or take over?
-Has the employee been pro-active in learning more aspects of the business by asking questions and volunteering to help others?
-Is the employee motivated enough to take on new tasks and see the big picture instead of the specific linear tasks?
You know, I still wonder about the extent to which young women are being trained to do the tasks you mention — at least as they relate to a professional environment. It seems as though there’s still a pervasive mentality that they will not need to know since they will only work until they become pregnant, which as we know is simply not the case for a sizeable group of women.
Remember that study some years back where we finally figured out that one of the reasons women had lower starting salaries than men was because no one ever taught us to negotiate for a higher salary? We didn’t know we were supposed to do that! We were taught to take what we were given else we’d look rude or bitchy, whereas boys were taught to fight for more otherwise they’d never get what they deserved, and those differences showed up in the workplace as soon as someone got hired.
The really cool thing is that men mentored me to ask for raises, to be confident in my presentations, and assertive in my workplace style. The first 3 years in private industry I made less than the men. My next 20+ years I make as much or more than men in similar positions.
What I try to do is give that same mentoring to the women and men that I hire. What I was trying to say is that the men are open to the training and the women are not. I have no idea why…and it is frustrating beyond belief.
I think many young women have no experience with or knowledge of mentoring and so don’t understand what you are trying to do. Boys generally get mentoring all through their childhoods; girls generally get instructions on how to behave. The young women that I’ve met that are most open to mentoring were the ones who played team sports — which provided them with some experiences similar to what boys get.
I didn’t run across that in my brief foray into the professional world, but I can imagine that it would indeed be very frustrating. Could part of it possibly be a disconnect between second-wave feminist ideas about how the workplace functions and the sometimes very different third-wave feminist ideas? Or are these young women you’re encountering simply rejecting feminism altogether?
When we get to the economic part of the diary discussion (which may be a bit further off than I’d anticipated, but that’s okay, this could be a neat series of conversations over time), I hope if you’re around that you’ll raise this issue again. Maybe we can get a bunch of different voices speaking about their observations, and perhaps figure out something useful.
I think this is the area most likely to suspect fo physiological underpinnings–or long, long cultural habits going back arbitrarily close to birth.
When I trained women sailboat skippers successfully in coed classes, it was by interrupting the normal interpersonal behavior on board (by requiring the women to try every new task before the men). But whenever I’ve been in position to suggest such policies along with an explanation, nobody would accept them. Women don’t want to be treated like some kind of victims, while men don’t want to feel they’re carrying other peoples’ weight. Perfectly understandable, of course.
Men and women seem to have fundamentally different purposes for communication itself–there are certainly limitless standup comedy routines on the subject. I see that here a lot. Where men talk about problems almost exclusively with a direct or implied object of solving them, women often talk about a problem for the experience of sharing the related emotions. This is nonsensical to many of us men–not nonsensical like the claims of Iraqi WMD, but meaningless, like the concept of the odor of radio waves.
I can imagine all sorts ways that the “behavioral molecules” of both formal negotiating and minute-to-minute social negotiating, in ways that are more male-like, could be offputting for more women than men. I had the luxury of cheating by taking that dynamic out of my boats. The historic solution is segregation.
But when negotiating itself is the required task, there’s no alternative to trying to solve the problem. It seems likely to me that what we need to do is bring (some of) the women some way towards behavioral parity–but also to bring both the men and the social/institutional framework a certain distance toward the women. Long-term, putting too much burden of change onto one component of so fundamental a system would seem to be a recipe for continued failure.
Or maybe you could see the family as being dependant on YOU 🙂
I grapple with this alot. Especially since meeting Sally and hearing from other feminists here. I think my idea of what feminism is are changing.
To be quite honest, my opinion of feminism was based on… ACK… how thye were represented in the news during the 80s and 90s. So I’m learning what it means now.
I do think that sometimes it does turn off the stay at home Mom. The woman who has been bitch-bitten one too many times by catty women or by the female boss syndrome.
The implications that if you are a feminists that you must hate men. That you must never be sexy, sensual or silly. That to be feminist you must be with N.O.W.
I’m a big time fighter when it comes to trying to keep the Republicans out of my uterus and vagina… but we do have to quit fighting each other.
Indy, I would love to read your diary – we NEED more understanding, open communication and more input from ALL.
SOME of the most amazing women to me have been activists and advocates while being mommies.
I need to learn more. I really do. Just my two cents and change…. and an open mind… now.
Thanks so much for this comment, Damnit Janet, this helps a lot with a more detailed idea of the introduction Second Nature has provided me with.
I’m starting to think the way to open this thing is just to talk about what feminism is and isn’t. Talk about how it’s really plural — feminisms — because there are well-organized different schools of thought on a few key issues. Talk about those key issues, explain what they are and what the different opinions are about. Dispel some myths like the man-hating and the stay-at-home mom hating, then get a little bit to how all this relates to practical, everyday political issues. (Rather than the over-arching structural abstraction I did in the first one, which I know was not interesting to many people.)
See where that goes, and maybe plan the next one from there. Is this idea developing well in this thread, y’all?
I think an a discussion of how feminism can help men would be an interesting discussion point.
Most new fathers I know would never actually take family leave to be at home with a new baby. My husband, however, starts his 35 week leave next week. He has not been ridiculed once for doing so. As a matter of fact, i kind of think that many of his friends are a little envious. I think that feminism has helped to make that a real option for men like my husband.
I am now definitely considering two diaries, there’s a lot to cover.
Perhaps I’ll structure the first one more around identity and the second one more around economics, and in that way I can take more time with each subject. I can also address men’s feminist issues from various perspectives, such as both the greater emotional investment in their children (from being allowed to be more free with their emotions) as well as the economic structural changes that allow them to have enough time to develop a greater emotional investment in their children.
This reminds me, though, where is MAJeff these days? Is he exclusively at Culture Kitchen anymore? (And Lorraine too!) MAJeff would be a wonderful additional voice w/r/t men’s perspectives on feminist issues, maybe I should email him when I get this thing put together.
Something that has been on my mind recently is the role patriarchal religions play in denying women autonomy and full moral and spiritual status. Good subject for a diary if you are looking for controversy ;->
You are a mouth-breathing trouble-maker. 😉
I am thinking ‘humanism’ maybe needs to be talked about…rather than just feminism….I think men need their ism as well, maleism..
About mother vs feminism….no more important job in all the world, and I would add that when I was “just a mother” I was also a housekeeper, accountant, organizer, cook, secretary, laundry maid, shopper, teacher, nurse, and 24 hr. on call. etc. Many, many jobs under one description, and if I would have gotten paid for all of that directly and fairly it would be far more than spouse could bring in. Marriage is partnership….and wife should be considered as a job description and be allocated family income accordingly.
To go futher I have always advocated that mothers should be paid by federal government a stipend to stay home and take care of kids and be valued highly. To me it is ridiculous to force single moms to workplace, to put their own kids in another’s care just so they can be workers, as if mothering isn’t work enough for anyone…as we mothers all know.
I appreciate your input, Diane.
The sort of feminism I claim as my brand is really a form of humanism. It only continues to be called feminism because currently, the power dynamic skews with women having less power as a category. You know how little kids complain sometimes on Mother’s or Father’s Day that there’s no Kid’s Day, and the parent always says, “Someday you’ll grow up and realize that every day is Kid’s Day”? Well, I think a good case can be made that the majority of the world is already adhering to male-ism, so what feminism seeks to do is even things up.
From my perspective, there is no such thing as “feminism v motherhood”, since I believe feminists ought to support a woman’s own choice for her identity, whether it includes motherhood or not. I would NEVER think that someone is “just a mother”; I place an extremely high value on dedicated parenting. I realize that people have this misperception of feminism, though, and that’s one of the things I hope to correct!
if I could — really great reply. BTW, could you come over to my house and give me some lessons in tact?
Like we wouldn’t just get sidetracked with gossip, dessert and cocktails. Hey, what are you doing next weekend… 😉
Actually I meant that for upthread comments, about being ‘just a mother’….and I was trying to relate that I feel being ‘just a’ is a great big deal. I agree with you about feminism is not vs. mother hood, but a part of it, it is a part of feminism, again it was mostly a reply to other comments.
I always felt kids birthdays should celebrate the mother, after all we did the work to have the birth.
Anyway Indy, maybe you should do a diary now as there seems to be great interest in the subject….just throw it out there…and let’s chat about it.
Can’t yet, Diane, have company coming this afternoon (and am blowing off cleaning my house just to talk about this now, lol), but I will definitely do it in the next couple of days. If someone else wants to throw one up and host, though, I certainly wouldn’t mind.
“just a mother” concept, perhaps more people would realize before it’s too late that they’re not really cut out for parenthood, and there’d be a lot fewer screwed-up kids around.
Ain’t that the truth. My therapy bills were UNREAL.
I figured out that I wasn’t cut out for parenthood when I was about eight. People always told me “Oh, you’ll change your mind.”
Nope. Never did. It was simply the right choice.
didn’t give up on thinking she could get me to change my mind (even though I had a tubal ligation at 27) until I was past menopause.
that if things were different, I wouldn’t mind kids — of the older variety. I really have little patience with babies (though I think they’re cute!), but older kids, say 4 years on up would be cool, I think. And there are so many kids out there who need an adult figure in their lives…
Hi,
I’m just back from a conference in the mountains, just above the Lac d’Annecy:
Annecy is one of the nicest cities in the Alps:
Alas, part of the week-end was very rainy…
Now I’m back to work, the weather is wonderful again!
Gosh! If I wasn’t deathly afraid to fly I’d be on the next plane to that beautiful place!
I was thinking of you this weekend as I watched the rioting in France…what is your take on it…
That’s it, I’m learning French so I can spend a summer in France! What is that building in the middle of the water? Is the whole city like that?
The old building in the middle used to be a jail…
What beautiful pictures…
Since I can’t get there physically, I’ll vacation in Annecy mentally at lunch today!
Oh Melanchthon, Annecy!
I lived in Geneva for 6 months back in 2002 – several trips up to Annecy, what a great town – not to mention a slow trip around the lake. Lunch at the restaurants at the left of your bottom picture.
Beautiful Annecy – like a fairy tale town!
But, if my memory serves me correctly, the building in the middle
of the river was a prison. Nice view, but probably not so nice accommodations.
Just a quickie “Hi” — need to head out and grocery shop this morning before it starts bucketing here. Spouse is starting a laundry load first (he’s out of clean uniform slacks!).
Will read posts in more detail later…
Morning everyone. Andrew is napping and I’m taking a bit of a break from little jobs.
The winds have died down here and beautiful sunshine is streaming in the living room window.
Hi toni, I have been following your comments especially the ones about little Andrew, who is just soooo cute, you must be beside yourself with happiness. I have forgotten his age, what is it?
He is now 16 moths old. He’s been with us two months now!
I’ve got to run, someone is waking up from his short nap!
I’ve got to run, someone is waking up from his short nap! Thanks Diane.
Good morning all! I just found out that Cindy Sheehan will be speaking here in san Diego tonight. I guess if I can go thousands of miles to see her I can go 20 minutes huh? I will fill you all in tomorrow on how it was. Hope you all have a fabulous day. Ugh on Mondays. Always a ton to do at work. Later!
I am so happy you get to hear her speak!!!!! It’s going to jazz you up big time!!! (((Lee)))) Yay!!!
I am so stoked. I don’t know that I would have known about it had my son not emailed me this morning. He heard it on the local news but didn’t know where, etc. I went to the meetwithcindy web site and there was a link to a local group here. I am so stoked. Even though my trip to Crawford was unbelievable, not getting to meet her personally was a bit of a disappointment. Hopefully tonight I can give her a hug for all of us!! WHOOT!!
From SanFranciscoKossacks outting Berkeley.
Saw this on the big orange… and it’s not about piess! 🙂
Right behind me.
I think me and Lapolotichick are goosing each other. Such beeeeeeeeeeeg grins.
Okay – I know it was the outting “in” Berkeley…LOL
Navajo sent an email asking about this – since a lot of us left…I have no issue with it…good times and good people…memories for some of us that DailyKos brought us together. We are surviving and thriving without DailyKos.
My typos sometimes leave entire words out 🙂
OH yeah she did ask permission. I forgot all about it. Was a neat surprise though.
I still get goosebumps when I think of the billboard Gina (Highacidity) worked on and it being there in DC.