No, not that one, you dirty gutter-minded liberals, bless all y’all’s hearts.
FEMINISM.
I say that particular F Word around folks I don’t yet know very well and I get a wide range of emotional reactions, everything from delight to disgust. The men usually get nervous; even the liberal men. Many of the women are instantly on guard. They seem to be wondering: am I one of those “angry feminists” they’ve heard about or am I going to be “normal”; am I going to be upset if they’re not feminists; am I going to be hyper-critical of their life choices; am I going to be a sanctimonious prick; am I going to try to recruit them. And really, only that last fear is valid. π
It’s important to begin any introductory sort of conversation about feminism with some acknowledgement of the history of oppression of women, even though by now most people are more or less familiar with it. There’s always someone who isn’t. Briefly, then:
Women have historically been denied the right to own property because we’ve been considered to be property. Women have spent millennia as the legal property of men, being raped, sold/traded like a commodity, beaten, and/or killed by the men who’ve owned them. This legacy lingers. In fact, Tennessee only got around to making it illegal for a man to rape his wife under all circumstances earlier this year, which was the result of feminist work. (As of last year there was something like 15 states where spousal rape was a lesser crime than other rape. LAST YEAR. 2004.) Women have been categorically denied education — an educated woman can fight back — and in some cultures today it’s still a punishable offense to teach a female to read. We were denied the right to vote here in the US until 1920, we’ve been denied the right to work to support ourselves and our children, and we’ve been forced into prostitution or unwanted marriages to support ourselves and our children. We’ve been denied the right to have equal custody of our children, and we’ve been denied the right to make decisions about our own reproductive processes, such as birth control use and abortion.
These grievous offenses represent only a fraction of the overall reasons why feminism has continued to emerge from the social fabric, time and again, over and over. There have been feminist movements all throughout history, a fact that doesn’t get covered in a lot of World History or Western Civ courses. But oppression always has resistance, it’s just that when oppression wins, the resistance doesn’t get a chance to write a chapter telling its side in the history books. Feminism is not a new phenomenon, its recent relative success in the US notwithstanding.
When feminism emerged in the US it did so for the same reasons it always has; because women were being categorically and systemically oppressed. Of course, as usual, rich women had it better than poor women, and white women better than non-white women, and straight women better than non-straight women (I’ll talk more about this in a minute), but there was still a recognizable oppression that was categorically about being female. White women did not have any more right to not be raped by their husbands than black women; the children of rich women were just as much owned by the male head-of-household as the children of poor women; straight women were not being enthusiastically promoted into boardrooms while queer women were kept at the reception desk. It’s been categorical.
And whatever our differences, we women all have this history of oppression in common, as well as its remaining legacies today. We also have the opportunity to learn to stand together against the renewed fervor with which the conservative movement is trying to resurrect many of these oppressions right back into the law again.
For a little while, feminism in the US really worked. Over decades, women marched and protested and rallied, they wrote books and raised their consciousness and burned their bras and said hell no we won’t back off the demand for the vote and the pill and equal pay and equal rights. And today we all enjoy much of what they demanded for us. (God, I love those women. I owe those women a debt of gratitude which I intend to pay-forward to future women by working to ensure them greater equality by the time they get here.) We won the vote and the right to take the pill. We can get good jobs. We can go to college, and we can send our daughters to law school just as well as our sons. We got the ERA approved in over half the states. A lot of great work was done.
But then a weird thing happened in the late 70s/early 80s. Well, lots of weird shit happened in the late 70s/early 80s, and if you were cognizant then you know what I’m talking about, but the weird thing I mean to mention specifically is the Reagan Revolution. The modern conservative movement began to gain substantive power with Reagan’s election in 1980. The 80s were a fucking mess for liberals and progressives, yo. And somewhere in there (everyone argues about precisely where) the backlash propaganda more or less succeeded in turning feminism back into a dirty word again — and not a dirty word in the good way.
Here’s what feminism is: The belief that people, generally, have equivalent worth regardless of sex; the belief that society should be structured (laws, customs, norms, rights, etc.) to reflect and protect this equality; and the commitment to work that will bring about this equality.
That’s it, that’s all.
Now of course, there are all different kinds of feminists. Some examples include eco-feminism, which as you might guess has a focus on environmental issues; Marxist feminism, which comes at feminist issues from a class analysis perspective and does a lot of economic theory; constructionist feminists, who are mostly into theory like postmodernist feminists, and who believe that most (not all) differences between men and women are socially constructed/learned behavior; and essentialist feminists, who take the opposite tack from constructionists and argue that there must be fundamental, innate biological differences that account for the differences in male and female behavior.
And there are more, but today I just want to stick with what most feminists believe, no matter which sub-group they might align with because it best represents their high-priority issues.
What feminism is fighting against, basically, is the hierarchy of value in culture that privileges men and male concerns over women and female concerns. This hierarchy is a core feminist concept. You can think of it like a ladder of issues, with those on the bottom valued the least and increasing value attached to ever-higher rungs. Feminists argue that we live in a patriarchy, and that our male-dominated social structure is responsible for creating and maintaining this hierarchy of value in which, for example, a career outside the home has much more value attached to it than motherhood and housekeeping, which are both so de-valued by the patriarchy that they are generally the lowest paid work or wholly unpaid work. Feminists oppose this structure vehemently. Feminists have written countless books tracing out how “women’s work” has been systemically de-valued by male-dominated social structures, and why & how feminism seeks to change that. Anyone who tells you that feminists don’t place a high value on motherhood is either ignorant and/or dishonest.
The commitment to feminism is a commitment to social equality — which, I should point out, does not mean sameness. Feminists do not think everyone is or should be “the same”; that’s just as much a right-wing talking point as the man-hating thing. Both are utter bullshit. Feminists think folks should be treated equally, which is a very different thing to say. Consider: 2 + 2 = 4 and 3 + 1 = 4. These equations are different, but equal. That’s the concept. Everything is not the same, but that doesn’t mean it automatically has to turn into a hierarchy, with one thing always worth more than another thing. A lot of feminist values are organized along a more horizontal line, with the choice to have a career not being generally valued any more or less than the choice to not have a career. The feminist value is not about which choice gets made, it’s about the idea that having the choice is good; having a choice that you can make free of as many outside influences as possible is better than not having a choice, or having a heavily coerced choice. If you are manipulated by unfair outside forces into choosing between a rock and a hard place, then you don’t have much of a choice.
The extent to which choices are coerced is another key concept for modern feminist work. Just because something is legal or illegal doesn’t mean that there isn’t intense social pressure that is sexist in nature and is aimed at keeping women down. As an example, consider that we had no women doctors for quite some time in early America because women were categorically refused admission to medical school. It wasn’t illegal (I don’t think it was, anyway), it was “just the way it was”. But feminists fought that, and even though the first woman to be admitted was only let in as a joke, she was nonetheless enormously successful and women started to become doctors despite significant widespread pressure to make different choices. Over a hundred years after the first woman graduated from med school, there was still a pervasive and mistaken belief in society that women weren’t capable of being doctors. I still remember an episode of All In The Family where the Meathead, a liberal feminist man, was pretty freaked out about the idea of a woman performing surgery on him, which had a profound effect on me as a small child. Women have been mercilessly harassed at med school, in attempts to gain licensure, and on the job, and all of this stuff had a measurable effect on the career choices women and girls were making. Choices are not made in a vacuum, and feminists understand that, so feminists fight against not only oppressive laws, but also oppressive “traditions” and social norms in the hopes that someday sex will not be relevant to career choices.
Many people seem to have the misperception that feminism shouldn’t exist anymore because now things are equal. This unfortunately does not only come out of the mouths of young women who don’t know what their immediate world would have looked like before the last generation of feminists changed things so drastically. There’s a whole anti-feminist movement that spreads horseshit about how equality has already been achieved at the same time as it bashes feminists for fighting for equality. It’s typical rightwing hypocritical nonsense, but they are very good at cultural messaging, so this is a problem for the modern feminist movement because people are buying it. As we can all see, women’s rights are under heavy fire these days, and we need more help than we’re getting from people of all sexes.
But feminism is not just about legal rights because, as I mentioned, sexism runs much deeper than the law. Discrimination on the basis of sex is now illegal, yes, but just as no serious non-racist person would argue that there’s not still a massive problem with racism in America, no serious non-sexist person would argue that there’s not still a massive problem with sexism. An excellent case can be made (and has been made by many feminists, among them bell hooks) that the two problems are inextricably intertwined. And that they are as well intertwined with the problems of classism and homophobia.
Think again about the ladder of value. It applies not only to issues, but also to bodies. Some bodies are highly valued within the culture while others are trapped at the bottom of the ladder by virtue of their skin color, social class, sexual orientation, genitalia, or any combination thereof. (To this concept, you can also add in other body-markers, like disability status, or identity-markers, like religious belief, all of which also matter w/r/t value to varying degrees in different social contexts.) Rich straight white Christian(esque) men are on the top rung, and the rest of us…are not. Those at the top understand very well how precarious their position is, so they need for the rest of us to remain in conflict with one another, because otherwise we could upset their control overnight, given how many of the “rest of us” there are. Those with power thus manufacture and encourage conflict about identities among those with lesser power, which serves to reinforce the status quo on several different levels: for example, at the practical level it is a major time suck and people who are bickering amongst themselves (and also working 2 jobs and supporting 4 kids along with their aging sick parents etc.) have no time to plan peaceful revolutions; and at a more meta-level, this bickering amongst ourselves only serves to reinforce the concept of “difference=conflict”, which prevents cooperation before it even starts.
As a feminist, I have a deep respect for all manners of identity differences. I understand that people have a compelling need to define themselves in myriad ways, and I personally find a great deal of beauty, joy, and strength in this diversity. But I’m also working to build bridges between identity groups; I’m working to expose our common interests and create liberal political coalitions in which, together, we are far more powerful than the institutions that try to keep us powerless by setting us against one another.
Much of the work that modern (and postmodern) feminism is doing is largely about broadening women’s choices, whether that’s about laws or about social conventions — without oppressing another group, of course, so again, there’s no man-hating. Feminism is not done at the expense of men’s rights. It’s done at the expense of male privilege, which is that thing that men only have at the expense of women’s equality. So feminism is not unfair, no matter how many anti-feminists whine and cry about how unfair equality is.
Feminism at its core is an extremely simple idea: equivalence of worth regardless of sex. Such is theory. But it is true that in practice it rapidly becomes ridiculously complicated. Such is politics. The devil is always in the details. And there are endless feminist arguments about the details, just as you can tune in here to the Booman Tribune every day and see the endless liberal arguments about the details.
That’s probably enough for us to start having a conversation, yes? Does this idea of feminism jibe with what you thought, or not? Is there anything new here? Anything that stands out as particularly good or ill-conceived? Tell me what y’all think.
Or, you know, just throw a pie and drop a shot of absinthe. Whatever. ;p
I recognize I didn’t even begin to get to all the issues we talked about in the CafΓ© earlier this week, but in the interests of having as many people participate as possible, “starting closer to the start” seemed prudent. If there’s interest and if my health allows I’m hoping to continue this as a regular series and post another diary every week or two.
On deck for future F Word diaries, in no particular batting order: the difference between sex & gender; feminist economic theory and feminist professional networks to compete with the Old Boys Club; feminist science & epistemology (where I’ll talk about essentialism vs. constructionism, an issue with which I am personally obsessed); men and feminism; and more about identity & politics (there’s always more about identity and politics!).
Well done, Indy! Not too much new here for me (but I’ve been studying theory for many a year and have been afforded the opportunity to read and talk LOTS about this), but an extremely well- written primer, clear, non-intimidating (even though you cover all of the broad areas of theory).
The equal does not mean SAME thing is something I have found myself endlessly having to explain to even well-meaning and otherwise intelligent people.
Thanks for an excellent starter and I look forward to this series, LOTS!
Thanks Brin! Glad to have you aboard, (hee, I just typed that “abroad”), and very much looking forward to your contributions as the topics get more complex.
I’ll vote way way thumbs up for a continuing series in this vein. This diary is great first overview and considering all the categories, theories, ideas, history surrounding feminism this series could go on forever.
Thanks, chocolate ink, I appreciate the positive feedback and encouragement.
What a wonderful diary. Thank you.
Could we please talk about sex, too ? The older I get, the more convinced I am that sex is the bedrock issue that fuels all the crippling mythologies poisoning human society. We need a Truth-Out on sex as it really is. We will never be free, never have equality, until we can tell the truth about sex.
Thank you for both the compliment and the excellent suggestion. There are an awful lot of misperceptions about feminism and sex, and there’s plenty of feminist theory about sex. I’m happy to add it to the list of topics I’m keeping. High on the list. π
We need to teach our loved ones that there are more than just two roles for women in the bedroom… or in the hallway, in the shower… in an innertube in the middle of a lake…
We still are grappling with these two:
You are either the Madonna (meaning the VIRGIN) or a WHORE. WROOOONNGGG
We can be both and more.
We do not have to “save ourselves for the “right man” ACKKKK
Speaking of the “F” word. Can it be okay to be a woman and still it’s okay to one night “make love” and the other night “let’s fuck”??
I’m not a “bad girl”… I’m a strong, sensual woman.
I’m a strong, sensual woman.
I’m just dumbstruck — all this time I thought you were a cold, uptight prude in a respectable Republican cloth coat.
Superb. Thank you.
I know I have to fight a constant battle to keep from seeming to be arrogant (look what we did) while trying to make sure that younger women understand how much has been accomplished and how much there is to be lost.
To quote myself from another diary, Americans tend to be largely ahistorical. They always think that whatever is in front of their eyes at the moment is the same as whatever occurred in the past. And because of that the backlash against feminism has an easier time than it should.
At another site, a young woman was complaining about how feminism had failed her because she grew up thinking she could have it all (education, career, love, family) and it turned out that she had to make many compromises because society was still sexist.
All I could think was how lucky she was to have grown up believing that all options were open to her rather than having my experience of constantly being told all the things that were closed off to me because I was a girl. I would have been happy to have had the chance to have her disappointment.
I don’t know, is it really that much better for us to be lied to? I grew up the same, being told I could do anything I wanted. I found out rather early on that it wasn’t true when I was denied the opportunity to join a “select” soccer team and then told, essentially, that I couldn’t play soccer anymore after starting high school. I went to tryouts anyway and the boys pretended I wasn’t there. They didn’t pass the ball to me in the drills. They didn’t acknowledge my presence in any way.
It’s good that I tried. It’s good not to limit ourselves and it’s good not to limit girls by teaching them to expect and observe unquestioning the barriers placed in their way. But – is it better to tell them they’ll be permitted to do anything they want? or is it better to tell them the truth?
though if women don’t try. And girls should grow up believe they can do anything — boys have always been told that and it really is no more true for them; it’s just that the obstacles are different.
The real failure of the second-wave isn’t that we didn’t change everthing; it’s that we didn’t think about how to help the next generation deal with the fact that we didn’t.
I think maybe stories are the best answer. Stories about women who were told they couldn’t, and did anyway. Then maybe it’s not such a shock when you get barriers thrown in your way.
My dad was really involved with my soccer league, and he knew what happened was wrong, but he didn’t go to bat for me. I think that is one of my biggest disappointments with him. That and all the ways he treated my brother differently. When I asked him how cars worked he just said, “It’s complicated,” and wouldn’t let me help him change the oil. After I went off to college, I got one of the books that tells you all about how to care for your model of vehicle, and I learned to change spark plugs and oil filters and all manner of things. Surprised the hell out of him. We women, we have ways of getting our own back.
called Feminist Story Hour where I told one of my stories and invited people to tell theirs. It didn’t get a whole lot of comments but what is there is interesting.
I like that.
I recently told my dad (a geek from way back before it was cool) that I built my own computer, and the old man said…nothing.
So frustrating and hurtful.
One of the things men can do to fight sexism is to be better fathers, and teach all their children that skill matters far more than sex.
I am all for women’s right, equalitable pay and bringing down whatever barriers us “men” (in the general sense) have put up.
I do agree with you, that I, as a male and should I meet the right person, strive to rise children in a gender-neutral family.
However, I do have to defend myself as a Hispanic male, being Hispanic we have this strange phenomenon we call Machismo? Old world Machismo, to be exact. And everything I described above that makes me as a person, I am viewed as un JOTO al mismo tiempo MARICON. Take your pick of Spanish or English words, those are daggers to any male. So growing up as a Pocho this puts us into a mental limbo because we are left to ourselves to defend our beliefs.
So we really have to come to the “table” and come to an agreement that we would work out our differences behind closed doors, but out there we will have each others back as we are constantly being bombarded by messages of what really makes a “man” or how a “real woman” should act.
If not, it will be another generation gone by without us making any strides and a continuation of rising our children on antiquated gender views.
My mother’s family was Spanish (and Irish), and I grew up in Miami, so I know about machismo and quien es mas macho, my friend. π (Sorry if my grammar is bad; it is atrocious in languages other than English.)
I would argue that “maricon” or “faggot” should not be a dagger to any male! There is nothing wrong with being gay. Plenty of my gay male friends call themselves these words and plenty of my straight male friends laugh if someone else hurls one at them. Words only have the power we give them, and you are the one to decide if you will understand “faggot” to be a bad thing or if you will understand the person who called you that while trying to insult you to be an idiot.
Standing up against bullies can indeed be very frightening and difficult, but you must remember, these people are bullying you to try to make you into someone they want you to be instead of letting you decide for yourself. You will have to decide for yourself if that is a fight worth having, or worth having in public.
I have decided. I will fight. In front of the whole world if necessary. I welcome you to fight with me in whatever way you can.
First off, Indy, what a well written, well presented diary you have offered us here. I am printing it out to share with others. Fabulous! Keep ’em coming.
I honor and value whatever it is that has made all of you “you”, however, this point up something that is quite important, in my opinion.
“I was raised to. . .”; “I come from a history of. . .”; “Our culture taught me. . . “; “A real man is. . .”; “A real woman is. . .”; ” Our Society says we should. . . “. Statements of belief that fit into these and many other like categories are POTENTIALLY BULLSHIT AND POTENTIALLY LIMITING AND NOT ALWAYS HELPFUL, quite often harmful.
None of us are our past, we are not our upbringing, we are not our family, we are not our friends, we are not our history, we are not what someone else has decided for us. We make these choices all through our lives and no matter how subconsciously we might make them, we do make them. We make them often just by accepting what is or what seems to be.
You decide what a real man/woman is, what the real man/woman YOU ARE is, and then wrap both arms around it and claim it proudly. You decide who you are and who you want to become. We are NOT defined by our past, we are defined by our NOW.
This is something all of us need to examine, understand, and inform ourselves about. We are responsible for who we are and what face we present to the world. Yes, many things influence us and our choices. . .but WE are the ones that choose.
In my opinion, most of us would rather sit back and shrug off the responsibility of any of that choosing and just take what comes as truth. Then we can feel we have the right to complain and bitch about how badly the world and others treat us. I am not directing this at anyone in particular, nor am I stating anything other than my own opinion from a lifetime of observation and study.
Do we all have struggles, disappointments and plenty of obstacles in our path? Damn right we do! So what are we going to decide to do with those?
You really do get to decide who you want to be in this life. Why not claim your own power and BE IT?
Well now Miss Shirl, here’s another of your pearls of wisdom that I will print out and hang next to my bathroom mirror.
Laura, you sweetheart. Haven’t you got that mirror covered up yet? That is your goal, isn’t it. LOL. . .just teasing. Thanks for your very kind words.
Love ya
What a superb idea…cover the mirror. I hadn’t thought of that, but it’s right up there with “scale? what scale?”
You tell it on the mountain, Shirl! I’ve missed you lately, good to see you as always. That was such a great post, now I owe you two big fat kisses. π
I hope these are cumulative kisses. . .heh!
You are going to make me take a trip to Az, aren’t you. I’m off to map quest. . . (like I don’t know the way already).
Hey, I thought I was here. Sometimes I just read and you all make the best comments, so I can keep my big mouth shut from time to time. I am always around, make no mistake about that. [BIG smiles]
Hugs and kisses back to you
Shirl
Your grammar is perfect. Can I assume you know more than two languages, since you did mention it is “atrocious in languages other than English.”
I can say as an adult, it is easier to disregard words like “faggot” and laugh it now. But that is because I am an adult and though out my childhood and adolesnce I already experienced racism, sexism, and all the other isms there are. When I was in grad school I took a gender equality class and it was pretty interesting. But I what I remember most, was the development of gender roles.
As little boys – we are told it is not right to hit women. But somewhere along the way as the little boy becomes a teenager that message is lost. At this stage, this is where you can find the beginnings of domestic abuse. And it is here too where the label of “maricon” or “faggot” are daggers to them as they are beginning to find themselves or try to figure our quien es mas macho.
I remember when I was married my former father-in-law giving me permission to put his daughter in line whenever she got out of line. My mouth just dropped because I was never raised like that. I think he saw how shocked I was and from that point on, in his eyes I wasn’t macho and I was left out in many family bonding events and it was thrown in my face that I wasn’t “man” enough. In the end, the marriage did not work out for different reasons. It was a good thing we did not have any children because her side of the family really did believe in traditional gender roles, men can do anything, if women were going to work, they can be teachers. If there is one thing I can come out of that experience, I was proud of myself I held my ground in my beliefs and values. I did not give into the notion I wasn’t “man” enough nor did I question my sexuality at the end of the marriage.
So I can proudly proclaim that I am a feminist who happens to be a heterosexual male. And there is nothing a person can say or do to alter my beliefs.
I’ve certainly had my share of running afoul of feminist generational conflicts, but I occupy an odd temporal locale as a GenXer. I was one of those raised in between the time when girls were limited early and often and the time when girls were told they could “have it all”. So I always had a critical eye on my goal as well as on who was trying to keep me down and away from it.
I can imagine that it must be very difficult for those older than me and those younger than me to communicate past that gap. Hopefully we can find a way to bridge that, too, with continued conversations and mutual respect, much listening and much patience.
Indy, Indy, Indy. Just when I’ve convinced myself that staying home with my kids disqualifies me from entrance into true feminism, you go and make me feel all welcome and valued and equal.
I have made some stupid choices out of fear and out of the belief that if I set my expectations low I would never be disappointed by not living up to them. I was completely wrong about that. I have lived with a deep sense of disappointment in myself for not having achieved those things that I value in others: a good education, an important and well-paying job, self-sufficiency.
People try to tell me all the time that raising kids is the most important job they can think of and that I should be paid for doing it. That’s very kind of them but it all feels like platitudes to me, because, you’re right, society doesn’t place a high value on it. I always feel like I’m in kindergarten and they’re telling me what a beautiful macaroni necklace I have made.
As I age I am at once getting more comfortable in my skin and having to fight an ever bigger disappointment in myself. Whether that is internal or comes from societal pressures I’m not really sure. I feel intense pressure to do something bigger, something else, something more, something different. Notice I didn’t say desire…just pressure.
I’m glad you feel welcome. That was definitely a major objective for me with this essay.
I understand the pressure you mention, I think, from a different perspective.
As you know, I’m disabled, and this prevents me from working. I wanted children, as well (madly, passionately, deeply), but my disability also prevents this from being a responsible choice. I’d be in deep shit if I took my personal value from career aspirations or my sense of myself as “mother”. I’m grateful to feminism (and queer theory) for helping me learn to develop a sense of identity and worth that, while it values things like careers and children, doesn’t require such things for value.
I always feel like I’m in kindergarten and they’re telling me what a beautiful macaroni necklace I have made.
LOL! If it’s any comfort, we all get that attitude from someone. There isn’t any choice a woman can make that isn’t considered lesser by some group. I work part time and spend lots of time with my children, so you’d think everyone would approve of me, but no. I’m “not serious” about my career to some, and not available enough to the school to others.
I don’t think men have it easier in all ways, but in this one way, they do. Everyone approves of my H, who works full time and is a “good dad,” meaning he isn’t a workaholic and takes his kids to basketball practice and things.
Us women ought to support each other in our choices. We’re all trying to be good people and do what’s best for us and our families (if any).
and not have kids, you’ll be told you are selfish, modern-day reincarnation of Lady MacBeth.
Or worse.
But I’ve only been called selfish to my face.
there is no right thing you can do. It is the double, triple, quadruple bind. I find that getting older and crankier helps. Eh, what are you saying, son?
Really excellent diary! Thank you.
A couple of additional concepts you might want to host discussions on:
You should cross-post this diary at Big Orange (only kidding!)
You should cross-post this diary at Big Orange (only kidding!)
Sadist. π
Seriously, thanks for the compliment and the ideas, I will add them to the list.
I’ve been thinking quite a bit about that other slur, lately: the L-word. No, not lesbian, “liberal.” Very similar tactic used to discredit the word and the ideology. Both have become vilified by those whose lock on power is most threatened by the ideas they represent. Both have been made punchlines through the endless repetition of certain memes in well-financed media campaigns. Both are mocked in so-called “progressive” circles and blogs. Feminism and liberalism are treated as anachronistic, marginal ideologies by people who should know better. People with a lot of money and power have effectively brainwashed our culture, so that we perceive the pathways to equality as “outside the mainstream.”
That’s an astute observation about the relationship of words, power, and cultural manipulation.
I’m a fan of reclaiming, in general, so I usually proudly identify myself as both a feminist and a liberal. I think those are good things to be, and I’ll happily explain why to anyone who isn’t downright hostile about it. I think we can counter the negative messaging as long as we confront it directly — especially considering how much of it is demonstrably false.
To use that other F word-absofuckenlutely. Both words have been made over by the dark side to be pretty vile and not representing at all what those words really mean and encompass. It still pisses me off when I hear some women trying to distance herself from the word ‘feminist’….when they would seem to embody all the attributes of feminism-but are afraid to just come out and say yes they are. Why is it so hard to say that?
It’s pretty simple really if you truly believe in equality your a feminist period…..and none of any other qualifiers like well sure women should have equal pay but…and yeah women should be promoted if doing the job well but….but really I’m not a feminist..well then what kind of mealy mouthed hybrid are you anyway?
Yes, many women seem frantically insistent on not being labelled feminist — maybe especially if, as you so well put it, they embody all the attributes of feminism.
I read a piece on the new movie North Country, which is based on the true story of the first class action suit on sexual harassment, by women mine workers in Minnesota. Despite the subject, the female stars and the female director were vehement that this was not a feminist movie. No, no, it’s just about fairness and equality, but it’s NOT feminist. It’s universal, it could be about anyone standing up for themselves and demanding better treatment, not necessarily women. No, no, not feminist at all, perish the thought.
I saw the movie and, oddly enough, I would say that it was actually feminist, although unfortunately not particularly well-made. But despite having made a feminist movie, the women involved felt they had to repudiate the term. Sad and frustrating.
…I guess I have no place to call home.
At the risk of being inundated by angry feminists…I am a masculinist.
Never heard of it?
Precisely my point.
(Not the “Let’s go into the woods, get dirty and pound on some drums” kind. either…)
—snip—
(Unfortunately, this comment eventually grew well beyond the bounds of BooMan commentary preferences, so…please go to the diary into which I transformed it called I am a masculinist, myself for the whole thing, if you are so inclined.)
Read on…
AG
So you’re not even going to TRY to get it? I really think that’s kinda sad, man, but it’s your life. Whatever. I wish you the best with it.
i’m glad you said something, i was about to! what gets my goat, at first glance, is the assumption we’d not know anything about the something that oftentimes oppresses us.
but since you spoke up, i’ll go back to sitting on my hands!!! haha
great diary. is this going to be a series? Sour Duck is hosting The Carnival of Feminists this month and she has a call out for submissions. If you haven’t heard about it, check it out.
I do intend this to be a regular series, every week or two (maybe three) as my health allows. (I’m disabled with an autoimmune disease so sometimes I wind up lurking when I’d rather not.) I might as well take this opportunity to tell you that I’ve enjoyed what y’all have done over at Our Word, too, although I admit I haven’t stopped by lately.
That Carnival thing is a really neat idea. I’ve never read Sour Duck, but I bookmarked both sites to check out later. I will definitely look forward to perusing all the Carnival posts.
I love that feminists are getting better and better organized and networked within the political blogosphere; this will help us a lot with action items and the spread of important information.
So you’re not even going to TRY to read the diary?
Check it out before you jump.
May be a different set of waters than you imagine.
AG
I read your diary.
You read my diary.
And you say “So you’re not even going to TRY to get it?”
Interesting.
So I made no effort, eh?
OK…
Happy trails.
AG
Well after I wrote my comments I decided I’d better go read your linked diary and see what you were actually saying instead of taking things out of context. Certainly glad I did as some of my deleted post mentioned the fact that I actually prefer humanist to feminist for the simple purpose of it being more inclusive and doesn’t seem to rile up parts of the population like feminist does…and you also mentioned humanism. My post up thread had also mentioned humanism but then I decided to delete that part of my post and stick to the subject of feminism more specifically.
I agree with most of what you said in your diary although you do seem to have a way of stating ideas that can seem more abrasive or combative in general and seem many times to be at cross purposes with the ideas you state.
One person’s “abrasive” is another’s “strong”.
“Y’pays yer money and y’takes yer chances”, as the old carny people used to say..
I am who I am.
Like my bio says on this forum.
“Born. Still working on it.”
Bu tI AM still working…
AG
Great stuff here IndyLib! Excellent overview of the issues and some of the history.
I’m a baby boomer reaching personal and professional identity just before the ‘you can do it all’ phase and just after the bra burning phase.
One aspect of being a feminist is the emotional conflicts that women deal with when trying to find their place in society. I grew up with the ideal of women in the home and men working. The reality was women worked to help pay the bills or were widows like my mom that had kids to raise. So contemporary society of the late 60’s and early 70’s said – get a career, raise a family, and be sexy (sometimes I hate Cosmo magazine!).
Most of my friends of similar age tried to do it all and were angry and bitter. The women were in favor of equal sharing at home…the men…not a chance. The men of my generation were all in favor of equal rights at work and status quo at home. A large number of us divorced those men and re-married men of ‘feminist’ attitudes. As we’ve aged we have carefully structured our fights for equality. Most of us don’t march as often but we have very active checkbooks for feminist causes.
For medical reasons, I don’t have biological children. I was lucky enough to have 2 step children that lived with us. This was a big issue when trying to have a career and children. Raising kids is tough, raising step-kids can be tougher for everyone.
I’ve been called selfish for not having kids of my own. However, when asked why I didn’t have children of my own, my answer is “I wanted to but God had different ideas”. Guaranteed silence from the questioner. I didn’t say what ideas or that for some of us it is physical and for others emotional…but it shuts them up. Having children or not – a topic for a separate diary probably.
Wow…what a ramble…sorry about that. In general I think we have come a long way (not baby!). I’d like to help mentor today’s young women and the next generation as well. But it may very well be one on one rather than in a professional environment – we shall see.
Thanks, SallyCat. Great comment from you, too.
If younger folks are curious about the time SallyCat is talking about, when there were these changes going on in the professional arena but not so much in how divisions of labor at home were functioning, I’d add a recommendation to pick up Arlie Hochschild’s book The Second Shift and give it a read. It was a groundbreaking text that discusses these issues in some detail.
That is a profoundly mature answer that I hope I remember for that day someone says something similar to me.
I generally try to refrain from “Well done” and “I agree” type comments, but I can’t help myself this time. Oh, IndyLib, you have nailed it. I feel like I have just read a thousand conversations and explanations, things that I have tried to say over the past 30+ years all rolled up into one articulate, clear piece of writing.
Thank you, thank you. This is going out to everyone on my email list. With a special “Read this!” to my 25-year-old daughter. Not that she doesn’t get it. I’ll never forget the night I was reading her a book about a female plumber and I stopped and started telling her about all the things I was told I couldn’t do when I was growing up. I said, and lots of women said, This isn’t fair! And we marched and talked to our friends and wrote letters and just started doing the things we had been told we couldn’t, and now – look! Look at the women who are doctors and lawyers and plumbers and pilots . . .
And she looked at me and said with total sincerity, “Thank you Mommy. And all the women.”
(She was . . . 8? 9?)
That’s a great story about your daughter. How proud you must have been to see that light of understanding and gratitude shine in her eyes.
Thanks so much for the kind words, Janet Strange. And yes, please feel free to distribute widely. I’m honored that you’d want to.
You betcha! (So I’ll just take this opportunity to brag on my daughter – it’s kind of on topic.) She called to say that she’d ordered her graduation invitations and when they asked about summa cum laude/magna cum laude, she had them put “magna.” then went home and calculated her GPA and decided that she’ll probably be “summa.” Wanted to know if I thought it would be OK if it was wrong.
<Me beaming with pride.>
Sure beats hell out of the endless fights with my parents as they insisted that I had to be a secretary, because, and I quote, “It’s the only decent job for a woman.” From their POV: The only other choices? Teacher and nurse – the first gets poor pay and no respect, the second requires you to do disgusting things with sick people. Now I’m a teacher who teaches future nurses. But I’m not a secretary. All three of these careers are wonderful for those who wish to pursue them, and . . . so are a lot of other types of work.
My point – as is yours – is that I wanted a choice.
My idea of feminism has always been pretty simple-as it should be I think and that people should be allowed to pursue to the fullest extent of their ability that which makes them who they are. Opera singer, nurse, truck driver, doctor, scientist, astronaut, professor, pharmacist, homemaker, business mogul or maid….now how many people saw any of those designations in their head as either male or female? For myself I know when I think opera singer I happen to see both men/women or astronaut yet some stereotypes still persist in my prefeminist memory. I’ve pretty much erased most of them but they linger because they are still reinforced by society.
I find that the potential of the whole country becomes so limited once limitations are placed on people due to gender and really makes no sense to me, in the social sense or the economic sense. In a way this applies almost more to men now then women and by that I mean that women can move into what were considered ‘male’ jobs yet there is still a great macho stigma to men pursuing their interests/jobs if it is not seen as manly-think how many jokes get made about ‘male’ nurses-just so fucken stupid.
I think we’ve barely scratched the surface on having real equality in this country.
Opera singer: woman
nurse: woman
truck driver: man
doctor: nothing
scientist: nothing
astronaut: man
professor: nothing
pharmacist: nothing, then woman–gotta go get my prescription today!
homemaker: woman
business mogul: man
maid: woman
Amazing, isn’t it? I still have to de-program myself.
When I was doing family therapy a few years ago, a man said to me “There are just differences between men and women… Men can’t have babies and women should be truck drivers!!” I still laugh when I think about it.
You know, there’s a really interesting correlation with pay scale and jobs, too. I wish I could dig a good cite up right now (maybe someone else has one bookmarked?) but I’m kinda fuzzy and tired, so, just an example from memory: Little House on the Prairie notwithstanding, men used to have the majority of the teaching jobs, too, back in the late 1800s or thereabouts. And back then, you could live all right on your teaching wage. But when men moved into other jobs and women took over the teaching jobs, the pay scale dropped like a stone. It remains this way today — mostly women teach below the uni level, and we claim to value both education and children as a society, but you can barely pay your rent as a teacher unless you’ve been at it for a while.
And, even worse, those men that do go into teaching get frowned at. “Those who can’t do, teach” is an insult to teachers of both genders. As is the notion that teaching is easy, or that they should get a “real job”.
The thing I hate most – and, even as someone born in the early ’80s, I saw a lot of this growing up – is girls who are told that they aren’t good at math or science, despite having an obvious talent for it. Fortunately, it was totally absent from my high school, and close to 75% of my honours math and science classes were women. Unfortunately, a noticeable fraction of them had no plans to actually use that education, and were just there to meet smart boys that were likely to get rich… Because, guess why? When they were younger, they’d been told they couldn’t do science, and thus had concluded that they couldn’t get jobs in science fields.
Even at the university level, I can’t count the number of women I’ve met who are convinced, before they even try, that “I can’t do that” or “I can’t understand that”. And, as a result, tune out any attempted explanation or elaboration.
Never mind the insults and bullying smart females had to endure in when I was in middle school. Male geeks got bullied; female geeks got outright harassed.
I’ve long suspected that things were somewhat better up there, but always wondered if it was just my pro-canuck bias.
I hope you won’t think less of me if I tell you that I really do suck at math. π
The last part of your post reminds me of this conversation between Elaine, George and Jerry from Seinfeld:
Because the underwear is pulled up from the back until…it wedges in.
They also have an Atomic Wedgie. Now the goal there is to actually get the waistband on top of the head. It’s very rare.
Boys are sick.
What do girls do?
We just tease someone until they develop an eating disorder.
I always bring that up when people talk about how girls are naturally less mean than boys. We’re definitely not, we’re just taught to be mean in different ways is all.
In a lot of ways, it is. We don’t have open misogynists running our government, after all. And Nova Scotia is a relative backwater.
Though some people, indeed, really do suck at math.
Oh yes, no illusions whatsoever there. Some of the nastiest people towards the really smart girls were the other girls. The nastiest were the ones who could have been smart, but got “persuaded” not to try to be.
I’m sure you can guess which set my female friends were drawn from.
I don’t know if I’d attribute that to sexism as much as to “working for the city or state sucks-ism”. For example district attorneys, county prosecutors and public defenders are all lawyers who make a pretty pathetic wage because they work for the state or county government. In fact if you compare their salaries and the amount of hours they work to a teacher’s salary for the amount of time that they work (remember ten weeks of summer vacation) and teachers might actually be getting a better deal.
Cops and firemen are in a similar situation to teachers, where they start out at a pretty poor wage and its not until they have about 5 to 6 years on the job that they have a comfortably lower-middle class wage. And of course cops and firemen are predominantly male. Teachers are usually more educated than cops or firemen, but then again teachers work less hours due to their summer vacation.
I probably wouldn’t attribute it to sexism either except for the fact that there is a trend there, it’s not an isolated incident. When jobs that were previously occupied mostly by men become occupied mostly by women, the pay scale tends to drop right around the same time. For example, secretarial work also used to be men’s work and then when it became women’s work the wages dropped; same thing with bank tellers.
I’ve done enough social science to know well that correlation isn’t causation so I’m not trying to make a hard cause-and-effect connection. I’m just pointing out that the correlation is there, and that it’s interesting to consider why.
Yeah but you can’t keep counting a specific among the general trend if on examination of the specific other explanations or hypotheses are reasonable.
A possible explanation for the better pay back in the 1800’s is supply and demand. A college degree was much rarer in the 1800’s than it is today.
And hou need to offer up alternatives that fits the facts. Pay is substantially better now than it was in the 1800s or the 1900s; the fact that women were historically paid less than men is well established. A college degree is not and was not required to be a secretary or a bank teller.
Blatant discrimination in employment against women is not something that happened in some dim long ago time in history. It continued right through the seventies and only started to go “underground” in the eighties — which doesn’t mean that the discrimination went away, it means that people understood that it wasn’t okay to say “Of course, I paid her less; the men need money more” or “I’d never hire a woman for that job; it’s men’s work.”
And hou need to offer up alternatives that fits the facts. Pay is substantially better now than it was in the 1800s or the 1900s; the fact that women were historically paid less than men is well established. A college degree is not and was not required to be a secretary or a bank teller
Actually the college degree thing was in reference to school teachers, sorry should have made that clearer.
But even bank tellers and secretaries, if at one point they were male-dominated, why are they now female dominated? It is still answerable with the supply and demand theory. If there is an infusion of women into a once male dominated job pool, it means that there’s more competition for jobs and you can get somebody to work cheaper. And if you own a business and can get somebody to work cheaper than somebody else, then you will. We’ve seen similar things happen with Irish and Italian immigrants in the 1840’s.
If the wages are below a certain level, then most men won’t take the job and thus they abandon that career choice and move onto something that pays better. (In general) The question then is, if the pay is not lucrative enough, why do women stay?
I guess what I’m arguing is that there is an element of choice in career selection. Just as there is for men. Basically if you’re main concern is pay, then you should get into a lucrative field. If you really want to do a career because you find the work meaningful or because its convenient as far as work hours or schedule or less stressful than more lucrative jobs, than sometimes you have to sacrfice higher pay.
For instance in my case, I was leaning toward journalism as a profession when I entered college, but by the time I graduated I decided that it wasn’t lucrative enough and the apprentice period was too long. So I went into law instead. In law school I was leaning toward becoming a prosecutor, but by the time I graduated I decided that the pay was too low with my student loan debt and I went into personal injury law instead. So I chose money over other considerations when it came to career.
My argument with using teachers was that most city, county or state employees don’t get paid all that well starting out and compared police officers and firefighters to teachers, they were all in a similar situation, where the apprentice period is really low-paying and then after about five or so years on the job you finally get to a reasonable lower middle class salary level. (This is all based on a major city economy by the way, what salaries are like in rural areas, I don’t have a clue.) So if teachers, police and firefighters are all in a similar pay dilemna, and one profession is more female dominated and the other two are more male dominated, then can the difference really be attributed to sexism?
One more thing, a good legal secretary with a few years of experience makes pretty good money. As do courtroom stenographers, who are also predominantly female.
My argument with using teachers was that most city, county or state employees don’t get paid all that well starting out and compared police officers and firefighters to teachers
Neither firefighters nor police officers require college degrees, let alone advanced degrees so it isn’t a valid comparison. You want to make a comparison then look at other professional employees who work in state and municipal jobs. I think you’ll find that teachers do not get paid commensurate with their education and job responsibilities. (I’d also point out that if you think that teachers don’t work during their “vacations,” you don’t know many teachers. Nor do they get paid for the long hours they spend doing preparation and grading)
guess what I’m arguing is that there is an element of choice in career selection.
And more educated, younger women are taking advantage of those choices, although they still face difficulties in many areas. But if you think that socialization and discrimination don’t play a role in keeping women out of the more lucrative blue collar jobs, you need to spend some time with the women who have managed to get those kinds of jobs. You might find this blog by a woman who is a journeyman electrician of interest.
For more information on women and wages, check out the excellent set of posts at Alas, A Blog.
(I’d also point out that if you think that teachers don’t work during their “vacations,” you don’t know many teachers. Nor do they get paid for the long hours they spend doing preparation and grading)
My father, mother and sister are teachers. My sister does usually teach summer school to pick up some extra money. And she just recently got her masters degree, which she picked up credits for mostly over the summer. My parents are both closing in on retirement age, a week or two before school starts they go in and clean up their classrooms and do some lesson planning preparation stuff. Other than that, they don’t do a damn thing work-related all summer long, and its been that way a good ten years at least. So maybe starting out teachers do work more over the summer, but once they have a good 15-20 years in, fuhgedabout it.
But even bank tellers and secretaries, if at one point they were male-dominated, why are they now female dominated? It is still answerable with the supply and demand theory. If there is an infusion of women into a once male dominated job pool, it means that there’s more competition for jobs and you can get somebody to work cheaper.
Okay, if your theory is correct, then shouldn’t we see an equal distribution of men and women in low paying jobs? We don’t. Low paying jobs are occupied mostly by women. Even in higher paying jobs, women are paid less than men on average.
If the wages are below a certain level, then most men won’t take the job and thus they abandon that career choice and move onto something that pays better. (In general) The question then is, if the pay is not lucrative enough, why do women stay?
And the answer is: institutionalized and internalized sexism. The marketplace pays women less for the same work overall, it hires women in lower prestige jobs, it fails to promote women at the same rate, and many women have a sense of this.
I guess what I’m arguing is that there is an element of choice in career selection. Just as there is for men.
Of course there’s an element of choice — it’s just that women have fewer choices and their options aren’t as good as men’s. As I pointed out in my diary, choices are not made in a vaccum. In this case, they’re made in a socio-economic context that includes a legacy of horrific sexism against women, which legacy lingers both in law and social conventions, and that has an effect on not only available choices, but also how people interpret their field of available choices.
So if teachers, police and firefighters are all in a similar pay dilemna, and one profession is more female dominated and the other two are more male dominated, then can the difference really be attributed to sexism?
You’ve presented no evidence that they are in a similar pay dilemma, and since I still have to download java onto my new computer I can’t check it yet at my favorite research place. Sorry I can’t address this point.
All that said, however, I must admit that I’m confused as to your overall point here. Are you trying to argue that there’s no wage gap in general, that sexism doesn’t explain any wage gap, or just that sexism doesn’t apply to the three occupational contexts I mentioned? I mean, I get that you’re saying it doesn’t necessarily apply to the specific contexts I mentioned, but that would be a weird argument for you to make because I said right up front that it was a just an interesting correlation. Or are you just being lawyerly and argumentative? π
All that said, however, I must admit that I’m confused as to your overall point here. Are you trying to argue that there’s no wage gap in general, that sexism doesn’t explain any wage gap, or just that sexism doesn’t apply to the three occupational contexts I mentioned? I mean, I get that you’re saying it doesn’t necessarily apply to the specific contexts I mentioned, but that would be a weird argument for you to make because I said right up front that it was a just an interesting correlation. Or are you just being lawyerly and argumentative? π
No, not saying that there is no wage gap and no not saying that sexism is never the cause of wage discrimination, (especially when it comes to promotions in the corporate world.) I guess what I’m arguing is that when it comes to careers and salary, its not solely a concern of women and that there are choices involved. Like I said earlier, I had to make some career choices myself based on economic considerations. Who knows? Maybe I would have enjoyed my work more being a journalist, but I probably would not have liked living in a rat hole and eating oodles of noodles three or four nights per week because I couldn’t afford to eat much else.
Both of my parents and my sister are teachers. My father in particular likes to call me up after work on summer days and ask me what I did that day. After telling him about driving to New Brunswick, New Jersey, to take a deposition of a guy with 2nd degree burns over most of his face, he likes to tell me that he and my mother were at the beach today. Then he likes to chuckle and tell me that I should have gone into teaching. And I of course ask him if he’s seen my paycheck lately.
Or are you just being lawyerly and argumentative? π
Well I didn’t think so originally, maybe you just touched upon some issues and concerns I’ve been dealing with lately.
So if teachers, police and firefighters are all in a similar pay dilemna, and one profession is more female dominated and the other two are more male dominated, then can the difference really be attributed to sexism?
Not all pay inequity is based on sexism. Some of it is based on classicism, which we Americans don’t like to admit is a big part of our culture. But, here’s the broader point. It’s all well and good to say that women should choose better paying jobs, but someone has to do these jobs. Teaching is a vital job, but the pay inequity demonstrates something very disturbing about our values. Children don’t contribute anything to the GNP. They’re just a drag on the economy. That’s how we view them. But it’s biting us in the ass, in the long run. Just recently a Japanese auto company decided against putting a plant in, I believe it was Kentucky, because the population was so illiterate they would have had to pay to educate them to a basic reading level. (The other reason was the health benefits costs. They went to Canada where there is national health care.)
Further, it is no longer about what lifestyle you want. It’s about whether or not you will be able to survive. The pay disparity is getting worse and worse, and the cost of living is increasing dramatically. We are developing into an hourglass economy. The middle class is disappearing. When I was a kid, teachers wore old clothes and drove twenty year old cars. It was a lean lifestyle. As the economic disparity increases, in this country, more and more working people are falling below the poverty line. It is no longer viable to choose the job you love and are well suited to, and accept that finances will be tight and you must live simply. It is now a question of whether you will be able to afford the basic necessities of life.
Not all pay inequity is based on sexism.
Thanks Recordkeeper, this is an excellent point. Just because sexism might be the cause (or one of the primary contributing causes) for any particular wage gap doesn’t mean that it then necessarily has to be the cause for every wage gap.
A lesson in logic from Monty Python.
It’s all well and good to say that women should choose better paying jobs, but someone has to do these jobs. Teaching is a vital job, but the pay inequity demonstrates something very disturbing about our values. Children don’t contribute anything to the GNP. They’re just a drag on the economy. That’s how we view them. But it’s biting us in the ass, in the long run. Just recently a Japanese auto company decided against putting a plant in, I believe it was Kentucky, because the population was so illiterate they would have had to pay to educate them to a basic reading level. (The other reason was the health benefits costs. They went to Canada where there is national health care.)
Excellent point.
Well, a “possible explanation” could have been anything. Did you research whether a college degree was a job requirement at the time? You might be interested to learn that teaching didn’t function the same way in the 1800s as it does now. Based on everything I know about the context, I continue to believe that the likeliest explanation is sexism. And I would remind you that I was very clear about not making a direct cause-and-effect argument, because I am aware that one cannot be made — either for or against.
A friend of mine participated in a class action law suit against the state that employed her. She was social worker (MSW). The law suit was over the disparity in wages between state employed social workers and psychologists. Getting a masters in social work is no easier than getting a degree in psych. The difference is the population served. Social work is associated with the welfare system: women and children. She said to me, “We live in a culture that despises women and children.” Truer words were never spoken. We have not outgrown the mentality that both are property and appendages to the male ego. Our schools are profoundly under-funded and our teachers are payed garbage for doing some of the most important work there is.
Correct me if I’m wrong but don’t you need a Ph. D. to be a licensed psycholgist? As opposed to a masters in social work?
I’m also wondering who are state psychologists patients?
The laws vary from state to state, but in some states you only need a bachelors. This particular law suit included educational equivalency. In this particular state, to be a certified social worker, you have to have a masters. In other states, again, a bachelors will allow you to practice as a social worker. For the record I don’t know if there is any state that requires a Ph.D to practice psychology. You do need a medical license to be a psychiatrist because they prescribe meds.
Dear Indy,
One of the things I love about Booman is that the diaries stay up a bit longer and the community… and the group gropes π
I am so sorry I didn’t pop in here. What a day!
I’ll be in here tomorrow morning – PROMISE! Soaking up all your delightful brilliance and experiences. And post some of my own reflections.
Amazing diary! Thank you my friend! xoxoxo!
Group gropes, I knew I liked this place!
Anytime you’re ready to post, Damnit Janet, we’re all ready to read. I love the work you’ve been doing elsewhere today, btw. When I was in high school I’d have really admired you for helping kids learn how to stand up for themselves. We adults forget sometimes, I think, how scary it is for kids to refuse to be coerced by grownups…which we should be better about, since it is still very scary for so many of us! Well, it is for me.
But I try to follow Georgia O’Keefe on that: I’ve been absolutely terrified every moment of my life and I’ve never let it keep me from doing a single thing that I wanted to do.
Indy, I was so happy to see so many “youts” in DC. They were on the streets passing out their flyers and stickers. They were great. One of them gave me the Nov 2 The world can’t wait flyer.
While up here on the mountain I realized someone else was posting TWCW flyers – they were different from mine. They were the green stickers. And I bumped into them and it was a 15 year old boy. HOOORAY!!!!!
The news says the teens are apathetic and such… tis not true. They get the same shit from the media that we liberals do.
Plus, someone has to carry the torch when I’m too fat and lazy π
I loved what you said. I love that people are still talking about this. One of my favorite parts is this:
I take this debt to heart in my own life. At my university I try to do a lot of the grunt work (strange masculine metaphor) to insure that women get ahead: writing recommendation letters, scheduling gender studies courses, etc. I don’t have to put myself on the line as the women back in the 1970’s did. But I have to keep paying attention. That is part of the problem: historical amnesia. Women born 18 years ago, my students, think it was always like it is today. No, gals, take it to heart: you snooze, you lose. So WAKE UP!
SusanHu, if you are reading this: I have a suggestion. Can you put the Powells icon for this book on the sidebar: In Our Time: A Memoir of a Revolution by Susan Brownmiller. This is such a great account of the bad old days (of illegal abortion, for one thing), and what women did to change things.
Thank you for all the work that you do. As another feminist, I know that we don’t often get thanked except by each other, but by god we sure do take a world of crap every day for doing feminist work. So, THANK YOU. I deeply appreciate the work you do for your students — it may sound like a weird thing to say but I think you’ll know what I mean when I say I hope they never know a world that lets them appreciate you as much as they should.
I really don’t take a world of crap. I just get little or no recognition for it. But I am not crying in my beer about that (or my white wine with seltzer).
I just finally had time to sit and read through your wonderful diary and all the comments, Indy. I’m too brain-dead from class tonight to provide any of my own thoughts, right now, but I’ll be back.
I’m looking forward to the rest of the series.
As a male, I offer here my thanks to my feminist friends from the late sixties and up to the present, who were instrumental in my education on these topics.
I very much appreciate their efforts to expand my perceptions. Even though my home county always votes blue, we were all still raised with all the usual cultural values associated with the 50s. So obviously I was in need of Feminism 101, at age 18.
I would not be who I am today without this feminist input.
One of them will soon receive the link to this diary.
Great diary, Indylib, I’m going to have to think this through again & again.
Just had one of those confusing “has anything changed” moments earlier this week: Overheard a bunch of grad students whispering about one of my female colleagues “Oh, she’s the best one because she’s not a feminist like the others. I asked one of the group what they meant by that, and was told that feminism was “so in the past”. And I suddenly remembered my frosh year at college when we were “warned off” of a senior on our floor because she was a feminist. By the time I finished grad school I was hard pressed to think of any woman I knew in school who wasn’t a feminist. Not true today, however!
seems to often be followed by a bunch of statements that show that the person is in fact a feminist. Very few of the people who say this are actually anti-feminist; they are afraid of the term because the popular media has drunk the right’s kool-aid and has passed along a phoney image of what feminism is about and what feminists are like.
There’s no doubt that feminism needs to do some serious PR. But in the meantime, I don’t care what labels someone uses as long as we can get them to support to support “important shit” like reproductive rights, the fight against domestic violence, affordable day care, and universal health care.
Excellent diary, IndyLib. I’m blown away by your ability to pull together the main issues, the recent history of feminism, and the relationship of feminism to other struggles, in such a succinct, accessible, readable way. Beautiful job.
I’m a baby boomer who’s been a feminist since the summer I was 16 and read Germaine Greer’s The Female Eunuch, and thought my head was going to explode. I didn’t become seriously involved in the women’s movement, though, until the end of the 70s, at which time I discovered not only the organized women’s movment, but also the Left. I still call myself a socialist-feminist, even though that term has kind of a quaint sound, these days.
On your topics for future diaries — I’d love to see some discussion on the constructivist/essentialist debate. And you mentioned queer theory — are you a fan of Eve Kosofsky Sedgwick?
So many interesting issues raised here in the diaries and the comments. I liked SallyCat’s suggestion that we talk about the whole “having children or not” issue. And intergenerational relations within feminism. And girls in math and science. And, and, and … !!!
Also, I’d love to hear if anyone’s reading any good feminist books, new or old. Let’s share our reading lists with each other. Perhaps we could have a “Recommend a Feminist Classic” diary some time.
Thanks for the feedback, bughouse canuck, glad you liked what I did.
I am endlessly fascinated with the constructivist/essentialist debate, and I definitely plan to do a piece on that in the relative near future. I am a Judith Butler fan, actually, but sadly I’m not caught up on her recent work due to my illness.
Feminist book review/rec is a terrific idea. I hope folks will share. I’ll try to remember to remind people in future diaries, and I’ll definitely add which books I’m drawing from in future diaries so people can read them if they’re interested.