The right-wingers are attempting to fight back, but the links I got from their sites only strengthen the damning evidence against Bush and his decision to use Phosphorus in Iraq. First and foremost, the Pentagon approved the use of Phosphorus in heavily populated areas even though there has been no research done on the effects of Phosphorus on large populations. Next, the New York Times pointed out that the Pentagon covered up the extent of the civilian deaths by seizing the hospital in Fallujah early. Third, every technical manual on White Phosphorus that I found has backed the findings of the people in the RAI documentary that Phosphorus can burn through to the skin, but leave the clothes intact.
Pictures:
First of all, Al-Jazeera has a grim reminder of what we are up against:
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The hatred of the right:
In response, Pluto of My Left Wing reports that the reaction of the right-wingers is ghoulish:
[The Left] have been beaten so severely on every factual front, they now have to resort to making up shit. pathetic………..
Phosphorus is the least favorite chemical of the Left, because it emits sensible light with no heat.
WP is not considered a chemical weapon, and it is not an outlawed munition either. The US is party to the latest protocol of 1980 but not a signee, which prohibits the use of incendiaries on civilian population. WP can be a chemical weapon of sorts when used in a confined area like a building, where the persons inside inhale droplets of WP, which turn into phosphoric acid in the lungs. Still, what’s the big deal. The “insurgents” are not civilians in my book.
Here is the information I have managed to gather so far on the “hero” that the left is trotting out now. This latest traitor is named Jeff Englehart. He claims to be a former specialist in the army. While supposedly in Iraq he had a blog which I have gone back and read. The blog starts long before he went to have gone to Iraq. He was very anti-war then and continued his drivel once there. I am making this my own little mission to bring this clown down. Just like the previous ex military “hero” of the left Massey this guy appears to be more fraud then truth.
Now to highlight some comments. He claims to have been 19D Cavalry Scout for the 3rd BDE 1st ID. He never refers to himself as a Cav Scout in any of his blog entries and in fact recalls a conversation with a “reconnaise scout” shortly after the battle for Fallujah. He was only in Fallujah on the last 2 days, according to his posts, and then as an escort to an officer driving a HMMV. Anybody with experience in the army in combat arms will quickly begin to wonder if this guy was in the army at all. He consistently misidentifies weapons and weapon systems as well as vehicles. I made a list and won’t bore folks with that right now.
I discovered that on May 6, 2005 he gave an interview to the Socialist Workers Organization. Transcript is available here www.socialistworker…. I am still looking into this clown but anybody want to go figure the odds that any major news outlet will tell you any of this stuff.
Wasn’t that koksucker kos in the military? He should know better.Fucktards. The whole lot.
Even worse / more egregious – that pussy Kos was an operator / FireDirectionControlman for MLRS Rocket Artillery. An education that INCLUDES the details re W-P rounds. For him to pretend otherwise is to DELIBERATELY LIE about them. Markos Moulitsas Zuniga is a fucking Liar.
Moulitsas is a traitor to his country. He is working very hard to help the terrorists win and America loose. He hates America with a passion. He is an agent of foreign enemies.
He should be investigated, (including the source of all funds he gets. CAIR?), found guilty with the evidence they find, and then hanged like any traitor to his country.
I loved using the white phosphorus rounds on U.N. troops in Deus Ex. They would burst into flames and run around screaming. Good times.
After 35 years it’s Winter Soldier time again as young men (aided and abetted by the Left) step forward to confess their “war crimes”. Which Democrat will step forward to be their John Kerry?
The photos of the dead Fallujans are clearly just decomposing bodies that have:
a) lain in the Iraq sun for days
b) been fed upon by vermin and/or dogs
c) been buried and dug up
d) been mutilated by propagandists
e) suffered any or all of the above.If anybody reading this can duplicate what the Kos Kidz and the Italians are alleging, i. e. fire white phosphorus in artillery shells or drop it in aerial flares and burn a person’s flesh to the bone WITHOUT igniting his or her clothes, I’ll personally hand you a cashier’s check for $10,000.
Anybody can call people America-haters, traitors, and the like if they can’t answer the arguments.
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In a nutshell:
I will answer the more substanitive right-wing arguments below. But in a nutshell, here is my case:
–The US used White Phosphorus against buildings in the Fallujah Offensive, as documented by the North Country Times;
–The US did so not knowing any kind of effects WP would have on civilian targets;
–J.T. Baker, to whom I link below, discusses the effects of WP and shows that the effects of WP were consistent with what was documented by RAI;
–The wounds could not have been caused by explosives, because they would have been much more localized;
–The pictures could not have been caused by decomposition, because the clothes would not have been intact;
–The Bush administration covered up the massive civilian casualties by capturing the hospital early and arresting the doctors, meaning there was no outrage generated by the media.
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Right-wing arguments:
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The Daily Abolution, lifted by Free Republic:
According to the NATO Field Manual, WP only causes conventional burns.
Completely wrong. The Army’s own field manual states proceedures that are much more serious that they would be for a normal burn. Furthermore, it states that the effect on civilian targets is “unknown.” Therefore, Bush allowed the use of WP in a heavily concentrated area, even though we have no data on the harmful effects on civilians. Well, now we know.
In addition, Corrente points out that the documentary shows that WP can leave clothes intact, while burning a person alive. This will be backed up with scientific evidence later.
The claims are being made by ideological activists with a stake in the outcome.
This is called an ad homenim vested interest argument. Just because they have a vested interest in the outcome does not mean their testimony is not valid. In order to show that their testimony is not valid, you need to show that they are lying. Abolution provides no such evidence.
The documentary only recounts two such incidents.
However, there are many more that I and others have documented. For example:
–I was able to capture some of Liberal US Marine’s diary before he deleted it. He wrote that not only did we use it in Fallujah, we also used WP in Nasiriyah. Here is what I captured:
Anyway, I recall vividly a incident that took place at our position. A Marine Artillery battery was within 500 meters of our position and they were providing indirect fire support in support of ground operations occuring in and around An Nasiriyah. I recall them shooting at a target in a tree line, across the river, maybe 700-1000 meters to the east of our position. When the rounds were shot out, they seemed to explode over the target area. A dense white cloud rained down on the tree line and you could see some enemy vehicles attempt to flee the area. I knew from watching similar explosions in training exercises that the cloud raining down on the target area was a white phosphorus round. They shot about 5 of them from my recollection.
I recall thinking, “Man, that is some evil stuff there.” Knowing what I know about Willy Pete, it would be a terrible way to die. White Phosphorus is supposed to be used to mark targets for aviation flying high over an objective area. And I know for a fact that no fixed-winged aviation was dropping ordnance in that area, it was too close to friendlies. I know this for a FACT. To see what I saw, not 1000 meters from where I was, in retrospect, is really frightening. I remember feeling like the more of them we killed, the quicker we could go home. And I am positive that is how every servicemember in a combat zone feels.
—Page 26 of the March-April 2005 Field Artillery Magazine documents the use of WP by a group, which calls its use “particularly effective.”
–In the same link as above, soldiers openly admitted to using WP on targets. I exerpted this from the April 11th issue of the North Country (CA) Times:
Joking and rousting each other like boys just seconds before, the men were instantly all business. With fellow Marines between them and their targets, a lot was at stake. Bogert received coordinates of the target, plotted them on a map and called out the settings for the gun they call “Sarah Lee.” Millikin, 21, from Reno, Nev., and Alexander, 23, from Wetumpka, Ala., quickly made the adjustments. They are good at what they do. “Gun up!” Millikin yelled when they finished a few seconds later, grabbing a white phosphorus round from a nearby ammo can and holding it over the tube.
“Fire!” Bogert yelled, as Millikin dropped it. The boom kicked dust around the pit as they ran through the drill again and again, sending a mixture of burning white phosphorus and high explosives they call “shake ‘n’ bake” into a cluster of buildings where insurgents have been spotted all week. They say they have never seen what they’ve hit, nor did they talk about it as they dusted off their breakfast and continued their hilarious routine of personal insults and name-calling.
Every day since they started firing rounds into the city, other Marines have stopped by the mortar pit to take a turn dropping mortars into the tube and firing at some unseen target. Like tourists at some macabre carnival, some bring cameras and have other troops snap photos of their combat shot. Even the battalion surgeon fired a few Saturday, just for sport. Everyone wants to “get some,” the troops explain, some joking that Fallujah is like a live-fire range.
Some have started to think of what happens after all the guns go silent. “I just don’t want to come home and have someone calling me a baby killer,” Alexander said after firing dozens of high explosive mortar rounds into the city. “That would piss me off.” Alexander said no one has told him what the charges have hit.
Not only did our soldiers fire the WP “into a cluster of buildings,” the soldiers in that unit did not want to know what they had just done. But, deep in the back of their minds, they knew.
—An Al-Jazeera reporter who was there had this to say:
“The amount of people who used to confirm to us that the US army had been using non-conventional weapons against Falluja city was enormous, but it was impossible to confirm,” he said.
“The city was sealed off and families left; so basically only the resisting fighters were inside the city. They were mostly denied admission into hospitals, so we could not verify the information from the medical fraternity, but yes everybody was saying that burnt bodies were scattered on Falluja’s streets.”
–Why? The Bush administration covered it up:
The New York Times reported that when the U.S. military bombarded Fallujah their first action was to seize the general hospital and arrest the doctors, “The hospital was selected as an early target because the American military believed that it was the source of rumors about heavy casualties”.
So, the Bush administration did not want us to know what really happened. If we fought the war so humanely, then what do they have to hide?
The MK77 rounds were only used for military targets.
This was the spin reported in the press. But, as Uncommon Thought points out, the same article makes my point for me when it says:
The MK77 bombs, an evolution of the napalm used in Vietnam and Korea, carry kerosene-based jet fuel and polystyrene so that, like napalm, the gel sticks to structures and to its victims. The bombs lack stabilising fins, making them far from precise.
So, even when our soldiers were exercising the highest degree of care in using MK77, this is a very inaccurate weapon that can very easily miss its targets and hit a civilian target.
Joe Englehart, the soldier who was interviewed for the RAI documentary, was only there the last two days.
But he was still in a position to know what was going on.
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The use of WP was legal.
But just because the use of WP is legal (debatable, but I’ll grant that for the sake of argument) does not mean that it was morally justified to use it.
There are legitimate military uses for WP.
This is discussed in greater detail here.
But that is not the point. The point is that the Pentagon went far above and beyond the legitimate scope of military uses for WP and used it in a heavily civilian population and on buildings even though nothing was known about its effects on civilians.
All of the uses described by some of Cole’s posters presuppose the absence of civilian targets. In that case, there may very well be legitimate use of WP. But that is not the question being argued.
The soldiers went out of their way not to hit civilian targets.
Even if they did, as I pointed out in the MK77 arguments above, MK77 is a very inaccurate weapon and can easily kill civilians. And given the high population density of Fallujah, it was impossible for our soldiers to avoid hitting civilians even when they did their best.
Ad homenims:
And the bullshit continues in earnest. It is no longer just an accusation with no verification (and an ugly one at that), but now the `nuanced’ position at DKos is that we did in fact do everything that the Italian crew has accused.
These shits are making me sick.
And you can just go to hell, you ignorant twerp. While making these vile accusations and repeating the agitprop of those who neither care to tell the truth nor having any interest in recanting once their nonsense is exposed may make you feel good about yourself (Aren’t you noble- you are against the war, and to show how against the war you are you will repeat, ad nauseum, claims you neither understand nor have ANY proof of), you are smearing the good name of a lot of guys who have done nothing wrong, all in your zeal to do combat with an administration you don’t like. BTW- I never referred to anyone as anti-American (nor, for that matter, did Jason), so you might re-read this post and edit yours accordingly, but I am not counting on it. Accuracy and honesty are not strong points from some on the left regarding issues like this.
I am done discussing this issue before I explode into a real rage. I understand people are against the war, and I am willing to allow people to say their piece. But when people start accusing troops of indiscrimiinately, and worse yet, intentionally using `chemical weapons’ to target civilians, we have gone beyond people saying their piece. At that point, you have become nothing more than a willing mouthpiece for those who sincerely do wish to do harm to our troops, the innocent civilians of Iraq, and this country. Even worse, it is being done for little more than domestic political considerations. And I won’t excuse, forgive, or forget that.
There is a special place in hell for people like that.
Anybody can say there is a special place in hell for their opponents when they can’t answer the arguments.
This is an attack on our troops:
No, this is an attack on the Bush administration and the people who sent them there. Troops are neither good nor bad — they are just people. I could care less how a soldier deals with the horrific events he experienced other than to show respect and compassion. I would encourage any soldier, regardless of the rightness or wrongness of their actions, to rise above it all like John Kerry did.
But I do not view our ordinary soldiers as war criminals. If I did that, then I would have to argue that every soldier who used poison gas during World War I should have been arrested and charged with crimes.
The only time I would regard a soldier as a war criminal is if they did something far above and beyond the normal call of duty or engagement in battle tactics and they showed no remorse whatsoever for it. Like engaging in torture, for instance, and not showing any kind of remorse. The leader is always held to a higher standard than his followers.
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Agency of Toxic Substances, Federal Government: “Phosphorus is not intended to kill people.”
First of all, you have to read between the lines. It never said it couldn’t kill people, it said the military didn’t intend for it to. But they also admit the point, in section 1.3, that we don’t know much about the effects of Phosphorus on humans:
Other than exposure of certain workers at the Pine Bluff Arsenal in Arkansas, very few studies exist that have information on exposure to high levels of white phosphorus.
Protein Wisdom then made a fatal mistake that totally destroys his arguments minimizing the effects of WP — he linked to J.T. Baker’s manual on WP. Baker makes the following points, all of which confirm the effects of WP as documented on RAI:
–It reacts violently to water, generating intense heat; therefore, if it comes into contact with skin, severe burning results.
–It specifically reacts to moisture on skin.
–Breathing it can cause people to have lung endema, a potentially fatal medical emergency.
–It causes severe burns which penetrate the skin.
–It causes permanent eye damage.
Most importantly of all, the paper says nothing about WP igniting clothes, but it does say plenty about it igniting skin and causing fatal lung damage. Therefore, RAI’s accounts of people being killed with their clothes intact has been proven.
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The injuries could have been caused by explosives.
Granted, but this only makes matters worse. If we grant that most of our soldiers did their best to avoid killing civilians, but they wound up killing thousands anyway, this means that what the Pentagon and Bush asked them to do was impossible. This does not debunk RAI at all, it actually strengthens the argument by showing that it was impossible for our soldiers to avoid killing civilians.
In addition, explosives could not have produced the widespread effects on the human body that WP could have; its effects would have been much more local.
And the clothes would have been decomposed as well if the bodies had been decomposed.
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The SCLM reported on the Fallujah Offensive many times. Why did they not show outrage?
See above, where I mention that the NYT reported that the US covered up the civilian casualties by seizing the hospital and arresting the doctors early.
