(Promoted from the diaries by Steven D. This is a great primer on the legal, ethical and practical issues regarding torture.)
When I was much younger, I attended what was considered a very good public high school in the United States. Yet like many schools around the world, much of what I was taught had very little to do with practical knowledge.
In a humble attempt to shine a light on what my former teachers missed, I present to you a new series I call Basic Learning. Many of you who read these articles may be far more well-versed on these topics than I, and I apologize if my discourses offend you. Furthermore, I am as much a purveyor of knowledge as I am still a student seeking it, and therefore remain prone to the fallacies of the non-expert.
Today’s Basic Learning: Torture
On the surface of things it would seem that there’s nothing mysterious or unknown about torture. It’s something barbaric and horrible and inhumane and most people strongly oppose it. However with recent events involving the U.S. gov’t’s application of harsh interrogation techniques, it’s worth a more in-depth look. If you know anyone who might be even slightly supportive of torture, this is the article they need to read.
First of all, what is torture? Piercing someone with hot pincers, like they did in medieval Europe, certainly is. But what about “water boarding”? Sleep deprivation? Blasting loud music at people? Etc?
The International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims (IRCT), based in Denmark, defines it thusly:
Torture is the intentional infliction of severe pain or suffering for a specific purpose. The aim of torture is not to kill the victim, but to break down the victim’s personality. It is often used to punish, obtain information or a confession or take revenge on a person or create terror and fear within a population.
I’d say that this definition is the best one I’ve seen and we’ll discuss it more below.
The treaty known as the Convention Against Torture And Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment defines it thusly:
The term “torture” means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
The United States has ratified this treaty, yet it has added what are called reservations. One of them is that the U.S. declares that it will not abide by Article 30, Section 1 of the treaty which reads:
Any dispute between two or more States Parties concerning the interpretation or application of this Convention which cannot be settled through negotiation shall, at the request of one of them, be submitted to arbitration. If within six months from thc date of the request for arbitration the Parties are unable to agree on the organization of the arbitration, any one of those Parties may refer the dispute to the International Court of Justice by request in conformity with the Statute of the Court.
In simpler terms, this means that the United States will be the sole judge over whether or not it tortures people and it will not allow any independent body to interfere in that right.
Why Is Torture Wrong?
This may seem like a silly question. Many people oppose it because it is inhumane to deliberately inflict suffering against another person and that it debases the persons doing the torture. However torture goes far beyond the actual period of infliction of physical or psychological pain. The effects of torture are long-lasting and not just to the individual who was tortured. From the IRCT again:
The consequences of torture reach far beyond immediate pain. Many victims suffer from post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), which includes symptoms such as flashbacks (or intrusive thoughts), severe anxiety, insomnia, nightmares, depression and memory lapses.
Torture victims often feel guilt and shame, triggered by the humiliation they have endured. Many feel that they have betrayed themselves or their friends and family.
Victims of torture do not suffer alone. In many cases, the victims’ families and friends are also affected. The broader society may also be indirectly affected. The use of torture sends a strong warning to those within a political, social, or religious opposition.
Rehabilitation for torture victims is often a very lengthy and delicate process. Non-profit groups like the Medical Foundation For the Care of Victims of Torture in the UK offer therapeutic care to torture victims that lasts for years.
As the IRCT states, it’s not just the tortured person who suffers but their entire family, including their children. Many victims of torture flee their country of origin to escape further persecution and to find a safe asylum for their long road to recovery.
Isn’t Torture Illegal?
Surprisingly, there are currently legal exceptions for torture. I am speaking only of the United States here – countries like Britain (also signatories to the treaty) are also bound by European Union treaties and other international obligations which prohibit torture.
To begin with, the UN Convention against Torture contains the phrasing “severe pain or suffering”, which means that pain or suffering that is not judged to be “severe” is not covered. A person who is denied sleep may not be judged to be suffering in a “severe” way. There are no clear American statutes dealing with what is or is not “severe” suffering.
The 8th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution prohibits “cruel and unusual” punishment and there is a host of case law interpreting this. Many of these domestic laws do address what form of punishment is considered “cruel” which would be analogous to “severe pain or suffering” although these largely deal with physical pain and not psychological pain.
Furthermore, the UN Convention against Torture only deals with people acting in, or with the consent or acquiescence, of a person acting in an official capacity. This would cover American soldiers such as Lynndie England, who was convicted for her role in “inflicting abuse” on prisoners in Abu Ghraib, Iraq. It’s noteworthy that she was never convicted on torture, only on “maltreating prisoners”.
It’s worth remembering however that many people who worked inside that prison were employees of private contractors, often non-American (and non-Iraqi) nationals. If they participated in torturing detainees, the line between “with the consent or acquiescence” of a person in an official American capacity would be greatly blurred and difficult to prove.
Indeed, reporter Seymour Hersh said in his book Chain of Command:
“An attorney involved in the case told me in July 2004 that one of the witness statements he had read described the rape of a boy by a foreign contract employee who served as an interpreter at Abu Ghraib,”
Furthermore, the UN Convention against Torture, in Article 16, says that the treaty is only in effect in “territories under the jurisdiction” of the signatory country. This would appear to provide a legal loophole by which prisoners could be tortured in other countries, such as Afghanistan, Pakistan, the base at Diego Garcia and Guantanamo Bay. The U.S. government, while it has de facto jurisdiction over the base at Guantanamo Bay, has often argued in front of courts that Gitmo is not under its legal jurisdiction and therefore many U.S. laws are not applicable. For more on Gitmo, see this, including the following paragraph:
The particular legal status of Guantanamo Bay was a factor in the choice of Guantanamo as a detention center. Because sovereignty of Guantanamo Bay ultimately resides with Cuba, the U.S. government argued unsuccessfully that people detained at Guantanamo were legally outside of the U.S. and did not have the Constitutional rights that they would have if they were held on U.S. territory (see Cuban American Bar Ass’n, Inc. v. Christopher, 43 F.3d 1412 (11th Cir. 1995)).
Other practices, known as “extraordinary rendition”, in which a prisoner is flown to a third country (like Uzbekistan or Romania) would also defeat the clause concerning territorial jurisdiction.
That being said, The UN convention against Torture, in Article 2, Section 2, states:
No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political in stability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.
However due to a combination of Article 16, which says the treaty only deals with territories under its own jurisdiction, and the reservation to Article 30, only the United States government can decide when it is commiting torture in violation of this treaty, there are many loopholes in which torture is not prohibited.
The United States is also a signatory to the Geneva Conventions (GC), a collection of four treaties dealing with legal conduct during a war. There are two kinds of groups of people specifically mentioned in the GC – traditional combatants (wearing uniforms, fighting for a sovereign nation) and non-combatants (civilians). The GC has specific measures on how to deal with captured people of either group and clearly prohibits:
“violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture.”
The Bush administration however has declared that people captured in Afghanistan and elsewhere fall in neither category and instead are “illegal combatants”. I’ve covered how lawyers such as Alberto Gonzalez and John Yoo used long and circuitous logic to arrive at this definition here.
In short, if someone is determined to be outside the definitions enshrined in the Geneva Conventions, then the Geneva Conventions and their protections do not apply to those people. I personally disagree with this legal conclusion but that is what the U.S. government has currently decided is valid and, since they are not subject to arbitration or oversight by any third party, anything the U.S. government says is valid goes.
That being said, the Third Geneva Convention Article 5 states:
Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4 [Prisoners of War], such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal.
In other words, if someone is captured and it is not certain that they are “Prisoners of War” (as determined by the GC), then they should be treated like POW’s until a tribunal determines they aren’t. And that means they can’t be tortured etc. until that classification has been made.
The Supreme Court, in Hamdi v. Bush stated that “prisoners are presumed to have POW status until a tribunal determines otherwise”, which would outlaw torture. However the Bush administration argued that the President himself is a “competent tribunal” and has ruled they are not POW’s, and are illegal combatants, and therefore GC prohibitions against torture do not apply.
That being said, U.S. military regulations (190-8 Section 1-6) state that a tribunal must be held anyway. 38 detainees appeared before a military tribunal and all of them were determined to have been innocent civilians.
These tribunals only began in July 2004, nearly three years after some people had been held in centers such as Guantanamo Bay. This seems to be a clear violation of the GC but again, as only the U.S. gov’t can determine violations, there is no outside impetus to comply with the Geneva Conventions in any timely manner. It’s worth noting here that on January 31, 2005 a judge ruled that these tribunals were unconstitutional and that the prisoners had all of the rights granted by the Constitution. The legality of these tribunals and the detainees’ imprisonment is still being adjudicated.
There is numerous documentation and evidence that torture has been occurring on detainees held in both Guantanamo Bay and in facilities in Iraq under American control, both from independent organizations like Amnesty International and the Red Cross as well as U.S. government reports. Whether or not this is illegal by violation of either the UN Convention on Torture or the Geneva Conventions is still being hashed out in the courts.
Isn’t Torture Necessary?
Some people say it is, from LA Times columnist David Gelernter to Vice President Dick Cheney. The justification for torture is that it might be “necessary to prevent a terrorist attack”.
The theory is that using torture against someone (presumably a terrorist) will extract vital information that will save lives and therefore justify the use of torture. The problem was this theory is that it is completely false.
I have interrogated hundreds of people, not terrorists but murderers and kidnappers and child molesters. And I can tell you from personal experience that threats, violence or even intimidation does not yield good results. On the contrary, building up a “rapport” with the person, in a sense being their “friend”, gets much better results. More confessions and more divulgance of accurate, true information.
The military’s own rules prohibit torture precisely because it yields inaccurate and incorrect information. In short, people who are being tortured will say whatever they think their torturer wants to hear rather than what is factually true. Anyone who wishes to protect confidential information will already be prepared to disclose false and misleading information in order to protect it. The rules state, in part:
Experience indicates that the use of force is not necessary to gain the cooperation of sources for interrogation. Therefore, the use of force is a poor technique, as it yields unreliable results, may damage subsequent collection efforts, and can induce the source to say whatever he thinks the interrogator wants to hear.
An extensive discussion of different (non-torture) interrogation tactics used by the U.S. military can be found here. You will note that that in previous wars, simple techniques such as the direct approach (just asking for the information) were effective on 85%-95% of those being interrogated.
Using torture is probably the least effective method conceivable at eliciting accurate information. From here:
As one who has interviewed admitted torturers and scores of their victims, I can say unequivocally that “intelligence” gained through physical and psychological abuse is almost always wrong. The reason is obvious. As one Liberian prisoner who had been forced to lie down in a bed of red ants for more than an hour told me, “I would have said anything to get out of that pit of bugs.”
Moreover, in the course of trying to obtain information through torture, authorities invariably end up manhandling innocent people. This causes tremendous resentment in the communities from which those innocent come, as Hoffman acknowledges in the case of Algerian Muslims. But those are the very communities whose citizens are potential sources of exactly the kind of data that can help stop the violence in the first place.
PBS did an excellent investigation into the “Torture Question”, including reviewing Britain’s past use of what they called “Highly Coercive Interrogation” techniques in Northern Ireland in 1971, that were tantamount to torture. The nation of Ireland later sued Britain for this action:
The actual utility of coercive interrogation was addressed at some length in the course of the Ireland v. United Kingdom case. The British government sought to argue that it had been necessary to introduce such techniques to combat a rise in terrorist violence. The government claimed that two (but please note only two) of the interrogations addressed by the court had resulted in a considerable quantity of actionable intelligence, including the identification of 700 active Republican terrorists and the discovery of individual responsibility for about 85 previously unexplained criminal incidents. However, other well-informed sources are more skeptical. Former British intelligence officer Frank Steele told the journalist Peter Taylor: “As for the special interrogation techniques, they were damned stupid as well as morally wrong … in practical terms, the additional usable intelligence they produced was, I understand, minimal.” Certainly the last quarter of 1971, the period during which these techniques were most employed, was marked by mounting, not decreasing violence, a fairly obvious yardstick by which to measure their efficacy.
Via the CS Monitor:
But many experts think treatment so severe as to be inhumane can be useless or counterproductive. “Even milder torture … can result in false confessions, that is, information that is flat-out inaccurate,” says Steven Welsh of the Center for Defense Information in Washington.
Senator John McCain, himself a former POW who was tortured:
History shows — and I know a little about this — that mistreatment of prisoners and torture is not productive. It’s not productive. You don’t get information that’s usable from people under torture, because they just tell you what you want to hear.
Cicero, the famous Roman poet, said torture “forces even the innocent to lie”.
From Donald P. Gregg, appearing in the New York Times:
I learned from my experiences in Vietnam from 1970 to 1972 that by treating prisoners humanely we frequently (though not always) gained valuable intelligence from them. This was particularly true of battered prisoners who had held out against prolonged South Vietnamese torture, but responded to being treated with compassion by Americans.
Via the Washington Post:
Meet, for example, retired Air Force Col. John Rothrock, who, as a young captain, headed a combat interrogation team in Vietnam. More than once he was faced with a ticking time-bomb scenario: a captured Vietcong guerrilla who knew of plans to kill Americans. What was done in such cases was “not nice,” he says. “But we did not physically abuse them.” Rothrock used psychology, the shock of capture and of the unexpected. Once, he let a prisoner see a wounded comrade die. Yet — as he remembers saying to the “desperate and honorable officers” who wanted him to move faster — “if I take a Bunsen burner to the guy’s genitals, he’s going to tell you just about anything,” which would be pointless. Rothrock, who is no squishy liberal, says that he doesn’t know “any professional intelligence officers of my generation who would think this is a good idea.”
And on and on. Let me repeat this once again: torture does not elicit accurate information from those being tortured. There are far more effective interrogation techniques available. If the purpose of interrogation is to elicit critically important information, torture is one of the least effective methods available.
If Torture Doesn’t Elicit Accurate Information, Why Do People Do It?
Torture has plenty of useful applications. Eliciting accurate intelligence from prisoners is however not one of them.
In medieval Europe, torture was regularly used to extract confessions. Some of these were confessions for “secular” crimes such as thievery, others were confessions to heresy or acts considered unlawful by the reigning religious institutional authority. The Spanish Inquisition’s use of torture to extract confessions of heresy against the Catholic Church is probably the best known example of this.
Torture is used for similar purposes in American-allied countries like Turkey, Egypt and Saudi Arabia today. A crime is committed. A person is apprehended and tortured until he or she confesses. The person is then punished (up to and including being executed). The case is therefore “resolved”. A brief application of logic however shows that the purpose of the confession is not to “solve the crime” but simply to resolve the case. It gives the government the appearance of maintaining law and order.
Remember the IRCT’s explanation of torture from earlier in this article?
Victims of torture do not suffer alone. In many cases, the victims’ families and friends are also affected. The broader society may also be indirectly affected. The use of torture sends a strong warning to those within a political, social, or religious opposition.
Torture is very effective in intimidating anyone considered to be “political, social or religious opposition”. A single person tortured who is released will go home to his or her family and his experiences will frighten and warn all those who know him, presumably those who are of the same “opposition” mentality as the torture victim.
Despite what politicians and columnists say, the real purpose of the torture at Abu Ghraib and elsewhere in Iraq was to intimidate and “warn” the family and associates of the torture victims. The problem is that this does not, in the long run, suppress or even dampen an opposition movement but infuse it with additional hatred and resolve to resist.
Mark Danner, who wrote a book called “Torture and Truth” said in Mother Jones:
One of the remarkable things about this whole affair [Abu Ghraib torture scandal] is that it’s been spectacular propaganda damage to the United States. It supplied a brand image for American repression: I’m talking about the hooded-man image, which now is recognizable all over the Middle East and the Islamic world as a symbol of the United States and the horrors it inflicts on Muslims. Osama bin Laden, had he gone to Madison Avenue and asked for an advertising image for jihad — even the best firm couldn’t have come up with anything better than those images.
Indeed as the linked PBS report above states, torture and physical intimidation in Northern Ireland led to an escalation of attacks, not a reduction.
France authorized the use of torture in the 1950’s to maintain its control over Algeria, which ended up being a tremendous failure. Shawn McHale, an Associate Professor of History and Int’l Affairs at George Washington University:
France won key battles by torturing suspects for intelligence. But the bigger lesson is that it lost the war. The fact that French military leaders resorted to the extensive use of torture shows that they had lost the support of the populace at large.
More on France and the use of torture in Algeria as an unsuccessful method of controlling that colony can be found at the link.
Salon magazine had an excellent two-part article on how torture provided short-term intelligence but long-term failure in Algeria, which you can find here. Some experts even argue that the French actually gleaned little to no valuable intelligence using torture, even in the short-term.
Torture, harsh interrogations, mass arrests and other heavy-handed techniques serve only to intimidate a population – not build bridges of understanding and cooperation. A nation (or coalition of nations) wishing to peacefully administer or occupy another nation must have the “hearts and minds” or cooperation of the majority of the people for there to be peace and stability. It is simply impossible to elicit cooperation and sympathy amongst an occupied people when torture is used.
Iraqi authorities regularly use torture and physical abuse to extract “confessions”. Again, this has nothing to do with any desire to “solve the case” but simply to maintain the appearance of law and order while simultaneously intimidating and cowing the population at large.
Torture is applied by dictatorships in an attempt to control and intimidate a hostile population through fear. It does not put an end to opposition movements and/or “insurgents”, it simply fuels their desire to overthrow their oppressors. There has never been an incident in recorded history where torture resulted in a stable and cooperative populace.
Summary
- Torture may or may not be legal when conducted by or on behalf of or with the consent of the United States in some circumstances
- Some legislators and public persons want the laws to be changed to make this authorization to torture more explicit
- The results of torture can last a lifetime and affect not just the primary victim but his family and loved ones and indeed the entire community
- Torture breeds emnity and resentment towards those who conduct the torture – NOT a willingness to cooperate
- Torture is possibly the least effective interrogation method of them all and results in incorrect, false and misleading information
- Torture is inhumane and debases the torturer as much as it does the victim of torture
- The use of torture does not do anything to suppress opposition or “insurgent” movements but instead has the opposite effect
- Torture is the hallmark of dictatorships and is counterproductive to building a democratic, free society
And now you know…
This is cross-posted from Flogging the Simian
Peace
I have a question–not for Booman, but rather for SoJ.
Something puzzles me.
SoJ wrote that he (or is it she–well, no matter) has extensive experience in interrogation:
Pardon me, but HUNDREDS? I have friends who are police (both in America and England), and it would take a long, long time to accumulate the experience of interrogating HUNDREDS of murderers, kidnappers, and child molesters. Yes, I acknowledge that the murder rate is much lower in the UK than in America, but one of my friends works for the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department. He has been “on the job” for 16 years and became a detective 10 years ago. His estimate is that he has interrogated about 200 suspects in the past decade–and most of those interrogations were of people arrested for property crimes as well as violent crimes. Kidnapping is an extremely rare crime (most kidnappings are of noncustodial parents abducting their children), for example, and my friend cannot recall interviewing any suspected kidnappers in the past decade. But perhaps he’s just not very efficient, or his recollection is faulty.
I was also wondering in what jurisdiction SoJ worked, because there appears to be an alarmingly high number of murders, kidnapping, and child molestation going on there.
For example, there were only 515 murders in the City of Los Angeles in 2003 (http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Los+Angeles&state=CA). That’s about 10 a week on the average, give or take a few lives. The LAPD has about 9,100 sworn officers. I would assume that the task of interrogating murder suspects would be distributed so that a member of the homicide squad might interview, say, one murder suspect every two weeks.
Which is why I find the “hundreds” statement curious. Also, I should think that SoJ, as a former police officer, would call people “suspects” (as in “murder suspects” as opposed to “murderers”).
Perhaps SoJ would care to clarify or qualify the “hundreds” statement? I’m sorry, but without further information I’m finding that claim a bit hard to swallow.
Perhaps SoJ would care to clarify or qualify the “hundreds” statement? I’m sorry, but without further information I’m finding that claim a bit hard to swallow.
Soj doesn’t need me to speak for her but I’m vouching for her integrity anyway. She’s genuine.
I’m afraid that’s not acceptable.
I beg your pardon, but the question was not addressed to you. The question was specifically addressed to SoJ and I’d appreciate if he/she could expound further.
I beg your pardon, but the question was not addressed to you.
I beg yours right back. Didn’t mean to intrude at all.
Well, I hope you haven’t taken offence.
It’s only that when a question is addressed to someone, I feel that it’s only proper that the addressee is the person who ought to answer, as he/she is in the best position to clarify anything that’s vague or questionable.
I would like to ask you two questions, if I may:
1) How do you know that SoJ is a “she”? SoJ has studiously avoided any mention of gender in his/her writing. In fact, on today’s “Flogging the Simian”, SoJ refers to “my partner” and says “they” instead of using the pronoun “he” or “she”
http://www.weblog.ro/soj#54071
I assumed–and still assume–that there is a perfectly plausible explanation as to how SoJ had the opportunity to interrogate so many criminal suspects in his/her career. I’m sure SoJ will answer the question and clear up this point.
The point does need to be answered, however, simply because it is a claim that seems to be central to SoJ’s diary. To take a hypothetical example, if I wrote a diary about how to run a corporation and claimed that I had once been the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, that claim might stretch credulity a bit–I mean, how many Fortune 500 ex-CEOs are blogging on Booman Tribune? (My guess is, “none”). So if I made that claim and cannot support it, my credibility is undermined.
Don’t misunderstand me; I think this diary on torture is well-written and I am only finding fault with one claim that SoJ has made. Nothing more, nothing less. And no, I am not asking SoJ to reveal his/her true identity. I am perfectly accepting of the story that SoJ is a former law enforcement official who has relocated to Romania.
I was just curious about how SoJ managed hundreds of interrogations in his/her career.
I still am.
I’m also not Soj, but the sentence —
— could easily have been intended to mean “hundreds of people, including murderers, kidnappers, and child molesters.” Also, different officers may see a different mix of cases, and some may specialize in interrogation.
With all due respect, and not wishing to upset anyone…the interpretation of the words is best made by its author. But being able to interrogate hundreds of criminals, or criminal suspects (I find the sloppy use of language curious, as law enforcement officials are rigorously drilled into always saying THE SUSPECT or THE ALLEGED PERPETRATOR rather than THE CRIMINAL…legal reasons, of course) is the feat I am curious about–not the crimes for which these people were being investigated.
By the way, the structure of all major metropolitan police forces in the United States is such that there is a “major crimes” unit that would handle serious offences against persons, and of course there is a separate homicide squad. Interrogations in municipal and state police forces are not typically done by specialised interrogators (you’re thinking of the federal intelligence services)–interrogations are done by members of the investigating squad. The fact that SoJ interrogated murderers, child molestors, and kidnappers (!) indicates that SoJ was part of a very curious police force that mixed the function of the homicide squad with the investigation of other crimes–something which, to my knowledge, is not done in any large police force in the USA. It seems I am missing a piece of the picture and am eager for SoJ to enlighten me.
You don’t need to ask him (soj).
He has stated many times on DKos and his own blog that he worked for Macon, Georgia PD as a clerk. There are numerous links all provided.
He has described his work many times.
I guess the poor detectives of this hotbed of violence and criminality are too overworked to interrogate their own cases. Leave it to the pen pusher from Homeland Security.
Anyone disbelieve me can google for soj and Macon.
As for the sex of our esteemed poster, well this reply on Kos should sort y’all out.
http://norwood.dailykos.com/story/2003/10/31/145337/23
Oh, I wasn’t aware of that fact.
I was under the impression that Macon, Georgia was not a major metropolitan area. According to my encyclopedia, the population of Macon is only a bit over 106,000. There were only 18 murders in Macon in 2003, scarcely the quantity committed in the City of Los Angeles (515) during that same year.
I also wasn’t aware that persons in clerical positions were charged with interrogating suspects. I suppose every police department is free to set its own rules regarding who will and will not conduct an interrogation.
Thanks to Yiasemi–I was able to Google and locate SoJ’s discussion of his (?) work with the Macon Police Department at this link:
http://www.weblog.ro/soj/2003-12-13.html
As such, I thought it might be interesting for you to see what a Murder statement looks like. The following document is 100% real and unedited, except that names have been taken out. If this is interesting to you, let me know and I will post more of these.
http://www.weblog.ro/soj/2003-12-13.html
Still, I do question the number of interviews. How many crimes, exactly, are committed in a city with a population of just over 100,000?
http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Macon&state=GA
I wasn’t really interested in determining SoJ’s gender, though, Yiasemi, as it seems irrelevant to the particular question at hand.
Pardon me, but HUNDREDS?
Fair enough question. I worked in a medium-sized city in the United States. The detective division was divided at that time (it’s since changed) into Property Crimes, Traffic Fatalities (of a criminal nature), Major Crimes (which included murder, rape and armed robbery) and Crimes against Children (child rape, molestation and felony abuse).
I was involved in all those divisions except for the Property Crimes for the majority of the time I worked there (I did some property but very little).
We had, on average about 30 murders per year. I worked all of them. We had about 3-5 child molestation and/or felony abuse cases per week. We had about 4 adult rape cases per week. As for the crime of Aggravated Assault, which is the most serious felony assault charge, we had about 2-3 of those per week.
I don’t know how many kidnappings we had since most people think of “kidnapping” as abducting a child. We had about 2-3 of those kind a year. Much more common, perhaps 1 a week, were adult males kidnapping their partners (girlfriends/wives).
I worked from 60-80 hours per week and when I quit that job I saw my statistics. I had interviewed just over 3000 people in total. I averaged about 20 per week give or take.
Were all of those the suspect? No of course not. But witnesses are not calm, truthful and outgoing. On the contrary, most witnesses were at least tangentially involved in the crime, were friends or family or sympathetic to the criminal, or were commiting minor criminal acts themselves (like doing drugs) or were people very hostile to the police in general. They often would not voluntarily or spontaneously tell the truth.
Many of the victims were often hostile, reluctant to talk and/or would lie in order to improve their position in front of the police. An example of this is a man who was shot would lie about the circumstances leading up to how he got shot because perhaps he was a drug dealer who had quarreled with a customer.
Therefore skilled interviewing/interrogation skills were needed for nearly all of those 3000 interviews that I conducted.
I don’t have a breakdown on how many of those were “suspects” versus “victims” versus “witnesses”. Often it took hours just to determine WHO was the victim and who was the “suspect”.
I didn’t use the term “suspect” simply for brevity and because I’m not testifying about these people in a court of law. We did our job soberly, lawfully and with due diligence and I would estimate at least 80% of the time we got a signed confession. I will note here that this signed confession was in due process of the law, including informing the suspect of his/her rights, access to lawyers, the whole nine yards.
Because of a severe staffing shortage, I worked every single murder, about 90% of all child molestations and/or felony abuses, every single rape, 90% of the aggravated assaults and kidnappings and armed robberies.
You may be doing the math and saying “thats impossible” well it wasn’t because I was not always working alone. My particular job was interrogating (we used the word interviewing) people and that was my primary task, often done in tandem with other people. I didn’t drive around doing traffic stops and I didn’t photograph the scene or measure footprints and all that. And sometimes I didn’t even GO to the scene. My job, more or less, was to 1) ferret out what had happened by interviewing the people and 2) convince (in a legal manner) the suspect that a signed confession was his best option. And I did my job well.
I used to live in the UK and now I live in Romania. You are blessed with a much more peaceful society. I worked and lived in an extremely impoverished and decaying urban city with a high rate of unemployment, illiteracy and ignorance. These factors regretfully lead to a high rate of crime.
I hope this clears things up for you.
Pax
Thank you for your answer.
However, the crime rate in Macon appears to have dropped precipitously in some categories and risen drastically in others since your departure. According to this link http://www.cityrating.com/citycrime.asp?city=Macon&state=GA , the crime rate in Macon, Georgia for 2003 was:
18 murders (you cited 30)
46 forcible rapes (you said 4 per week, which would make it about 200 a year)
354 Aggravated Assaults (you said 2-3 per week, which would mean 104-156 annually)
Kudos to the Macon Police Department for reducing the number of murders and forcible rapes, but I the number of aggravated assaults has risen dramatically–and in such a short time!
But I’m still a bit fuzzy on the math. You’re saying that you did about 20 interviews a week for a total of 3000. That means you did about 1000 a year, and 1000 x 3 years = 3000.
Phew, that’s a lot! No wonder you quit. Sounds like a high-stress job.
However, let’s take your figures and add them together:
30 murders per year x 3 years = 90 interviews
200 rapes per year x 3 years = 600 interviews
150 aggravated assaults per year x 3 years = 450 interviews
So far, we have about 1,140 interviews over a period of three years. Of course there are other categories of crime not covered, such as men kidnapping their wives or girlfriends (which apparently is quite prevalent in Macon, yet is not reported in the official crime statistics for some reason), and child molestation (2-3 per week seems rather high). There is a high property crime rate in Macon according to the official stats, but that doesn’t count as you didn’t work much in the property crime division.
That means about two-thirds of your 3,000 or so interviews were related to child molestation (also not a figure reported in the official crime stats for some odd reason) and men kidnapping their wives or girlfriends, plus some miscellaneous crimes. That’s a shocking rate of child abuse, that’s for certain, and I wish those figures would be reported in the official crime statistics alongside murder, rape, and aggravated assault–as child molestation is surely an offence equally grave, if not moreso.
Shadowthief I agree the Soj has never intentionally hidden his gender, though he has allowed people to believe something else. However…
“Speaking of Macon, I do not dress the way you do in your picture, but even with my very long hair I manage to work for the police, be the ODP’s liaison and have a generally good experience with the citizens of this fair town.”
That was at the link I gave you. Hip and swinging police in Georgia…..no marine cuts there!!
“As for being “distracted” by a menial job, I rather find that menial jobs pay me a little but don’t ask me to think too much. I use that time to think and read and research and just generally learn things that otherwise I’d never have time to do.
I might get paid only X dollars per hour, but in a sense, the City of Macon
(and so many other jobs before it) are paying me to:
Read the news, learn Romanian, build complicated charts and datasets in Excel,
read internal Homeland Security documents, learn how to file/write grants to federal agencies, meet criminals and the victims of crime and hang out with all kinds of lower-income people I’d never otherwise meet, etc, etc.”
And
“I’m not a journalist, I’m an extremely overworked and underpaid government clerk.
Well, not exactly, but that’s close enough.”
All Soj, all DKos 2003.
Very odd arrangements these for the skilled interrogator who seems to have found more perps than the official record. Just thought you may like to know Shadowkeeper. Hangin’ out, growin’ hair and mixin’ with the likes of us….
tssk shadowthief hee mixing you up with a video game. These secret identities eh?
I’m still a little confused. I’ve looked at the links provided by yiasemi and shadowthief, in this thread. I also looked at the website for the Macon Police Dept.
From your previous descriptions of your work, I must assume you were a secretary. If I’m wrong, and you were, in fact, an investigator, I apologize, but I’m operating under the assumption that investigators are police officers. One does not “fall into” being a police officer, and you have said, on other occasions, that you “fell into” law enforcement. Cops also do not have long hair, unless they are doing undercover detective work. But, from your description of your duties, I must assume that you were a secretary. So I am still confused as to how you would have been in a position to “interrogate” people accused of violent felonies. I would think interrogation falls to seasoned detectives. Taking statements is not interrogating. Can you explain what you mean by “interrogate?”
….the frenzied sound of true believers burying their heads in the dirt.
Tell us it ain’t so S?
S for secretary, s for sojourner, s for a soniq hedgehog….?
A bit more from the experts [from an earlier diary]:
.
It goes without saying that torture is abhorrent.
However, so long as we are on the topic of how to best interrogate a captive–well, we captured lots of Iraqi soldiers during Gulf War I. Although it was not my job to interrogate them, the British officers who did interrogate the Iraqis took the “Mr. Rogers” approach.
When possible, the Iraqis were interrogated by native Arabs (such as our Saudi and Egyptian interpreters attached to our company).
The POWs being interrogated were always given food, water, rest, and when possible, a shower and clean clothes. They and the interrogators sat in chairs without a table between them.
And the POWs talked. Their guard was down…and what’s more, the information got under these conditions was generally reliable, because the conversations went on so long that the same questions were asked several times, thus giving ample opportunity to catch the POWs out in any lies they were telling.
Notice that nobody was threatened, beaten, starved, nor harmed in any way.
Would you want to rely on information given by a hungry, scared, cold, sleep-deprived man who was suffering from pain and/or threatened with bodily harm? Someone like that wouldn’t tell you anything you wanted to hear to get you away from them, and might not even be able to distinguish fact from fiction.
The “Stockholm Syndrome” can take place to the advantage of captors–that’s the psychological phenomenon in which captives identify with their captors. POWs can begin to identify with their interrogators and give useful information, perhaps information that would save lives, but mistreating people and frightening them out of their wits is a colossally stupid idea.
It goes without saying that torture is abhorrent.
Well I used to think so. But unfortunately my country has been torturing in my name so I felt I had to say why it is ABHORRENT and not only that, completely useless as an interrogation technique.
Pax
Maybe the rest of you have already considered this possibility, but it just occurred to me while reading Soj’s piece, so I thought I’d share.
Don your tin foil.
Soj says :
They know this. Of course they know this. So why do they still want to torture people? This has not sat well with me from the get-go. It just doesn’t make any sense.
But now I’m starting to think that the whole point of them torturing is so that they can get the prisoners to say whatever they want.
It is a big CYA. They know that they lied us into an unjust war. They probably want to get us into other ones.
And they can use the tortured prisoners as the ‘source’ of the information that justifies them doing whatever they want.
the man, woman, or child chained to the “facility” wall.
Well, of course, to provide “stress relief” for the “troops.”
The real intended audience are those outside the facility.
The torturer does not desire “information” from his victim.
What the torturer desires is complicity from you.
Sure. They’re not mutually exclusive. One would just be an added ‘bonus’ of the other.
All I’m saying is that they’ve shown no qualms about using faulty intelligence and forged evidence to justify their actions.
Using torture to coerce people into saying what you want them to say would just be an additional tool in that box.
In the Diem (and US advisers) Vietnam days people were tortured until they either died or signed a confession to being “Viet Cong” in which case they were executed. Of course many poor peasants who had nothing to do with the “Viet Cong” as we called it signed false confessions. A lot of these confessions were used by the Kennedy administration to justify increasing US involvement in Vietnam in 1962.
They are brutalizing the detainees to make sure more people in the region are enraged to a point that the opposition will continue to grow and the war will be guaranteed to continue.
Thanks for this. I’d like to have this guy read it, if he could sit still long enough. (and if he could possibly keep an open mind and not believe it to be propaganda by the VLWC)
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/11/10/195544/83
wanna hear something that is really sick? I saw a picture the other day of a tortured person and it showed holes in the torso of this person from a drill, assuming electric. The size looked to me about a cm in diameter. NOw someone ought to be up on charges for this kind of treatment as well. And the scalding ppl’s flesh. This kind of thing is not just torture it is sadistic. Some very sick minds out there for sure! I can hardly stand to think of it, but I want to pick the time to tell you all about it.
was in one of RubDMC’s war grief pictures. One of the later groups of pics, perhaps the last group.
Agree — there’s something broken in people who do this, who need to do this.
I warned my stepson once that some things aren’t good to do in groups. (He wanted his friends to see the bunnies having sex. I said that although I understood the idea that it would be innocent, in fact that watching anyone or any animal having sex in a group, perhaps particularly a group of males, too often would lead to behavior you would ordinarily be ashamed of. Thus, given the chance to observe sex with a group, I’d suggest he avoid it if possible. I think he was shocked, yet got the point.)
Being in charge of people in captivity is one of those activities. You get a group in charge, a group in captivity, things tend to go wrong.
What’s that study — in California with the professor who had the students simulate a jail? Went wrong really quickly, and the professor himself didn’t want to stop the experiment after it had gone bad… until outsiders convinced him he was in denial.
I don’t know the technical definition of sadism, but there’s some psychological thing going on, possibly psycho-sexual. To me, it seems the torturer’s power trip, a show of dominance, which in this context is antidote to fear.
In other words, terrorists scare the hell out of us with surprise attack, we feel vulnerable and angry and fearful, and torture is revenge, it’s turning the tables. It’s acting out.
But beyond speculation, a second point that needs to be emphasized from this diary: mercenaries, otherwise known as contractors. I was astonished to hear how they are often beyond the law—outside the law in Iraq, and outside US military law. They are the most dangerous and damaging element of this war.
And we’d better hope the Avian flu doesn’t hit until the Repubs are out, or they’ll be on all our streets, and busting down our doors, “for our own protection.”
Aren’t many Americans heavily armed with handguns and rifles of one sort or another? The presence of so many weapons amongst the civilian population would seem to be a fly in the ointment.
The Mercs are already here. They were (maybe still are) down in New Orleans. Admittedly working for corporate sponsors, did not hear if they were also doing direct government “contracting”. Welcome to the neighborhood, won’t you be my neighbor.
.
Plane spotters verified a CIA plane landed and parked at Schiphol-East on November 17 with registration number N505LL. The plane is owned by the American Path Corporation, and according to insiders connected to the CIA.
In 2003 the same plane was spotted in Afghanistan in support of the American Special Forcesoperation.
The Dutch Ministry responsible for all traffic by air, road and river has confirmed this plane departed from Turkey on November 16 and arrived at Schiphol, Amsterdam airport the following day. A day later it departed for a flight to Iceland with further “unknown” destination. Any other information as to the purpose of its landing at Amsterdam airport, was not known by the Ministry. The Dutch Foreign Affairs Ministry has never been asked for diplomatic clearance of any flight in Dutch air space.
FM Bernhard Bot made a tough position known to parliament last Thursday, having asked the U.S. State Department for specific information for any flights or activities involving ghost detainees, as was published by the Washington Post recently.
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
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I am very interested in this
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