Well, what the hell, so here it comes. Many of you may have been party and/or witnesss to the shitstorm unleashed by my diary on dKos, originally titled “How Dare You Cindy Sheehan?” which appeared last night (out of nowhere) in lieu of another piece I had in mind, originally scheduled to be written under the title “Attitudes of Gratitude” in the “Greetings from Turtle Island” series I have been posting throughout American Indian Heritage Month.
Watching the “gang bang” unfold over there in the course of this day has not been a pleasant experience, but at the same time, it has sort of been like watching the FEMA fiasco unfold in the aftermath of Katrina: all the horrific filth and muck and mire that lies just below the sham-faced surface of this society’s commitment to “diversity”, to “freedom of speech”, to the notion of “one nation under (someone else’s) God” and a whole lot of other empty platitudes bubbled to the surface and spewed from the pens of so-called “liberals” and “progressives” in a hailstorm of racism, hatred, childish human-being-bashing, and vile refusal to look in the goddamned mirror.
There is already a far better diary here at Booman Tribune addressing related issues in a much different way, titled “Thanksgiving from the Rez”, posted by Cannibis. By all means, please read that. It is powerful and perhaps more effective than the approach applied here. This diary has nothing to offer but sheer, unmitigated pain and ugliness–especially now, in the aftermath of the shitstorm.
If you choose to join the gangbangers in blasting me off the page and out of your holiday celebration, my only request is that you do it over there. I am relieved that the diary has since gone off the recommend list–but there is still ample room for you to join in the hate-mongering “fun” on the related diaries currently on the recommend list there. Never could I have ever imagined that I would be so happy to see my diary disappear from the recommended list, and it’s sure not the way I’d ever hoped to get there. The fact that THIS of all things is what it took is again substantiation for everything I have been saying about the so-called “liberal” community and its collective indifference to “alternative lifeways”.
I will not be available for response and/or comment for the remainder of this day. If you can’t stand the heat, I guess, go back to the kitchen. And that’s where I’m headed–I’ve got a loaf of wonder bread in the oven.
[Note, the original diary by Cindy Sheehan to which this diary originally responded was deleted by the author; the alternative version, which I have not read, is said to have been redacted to eliminate the offensive use of the term “trail of tears.” It is available at Truthout.org.]
Dear Cindy,
I do not know how to begin. Perhaps I should start with a picture. You see the person on with the sign that says MEET WITH CINDY? Yeah. That’s me. They say a picture is worth 1,000 words, but just in case, here are the words to go with the picture, from an article expressing my appreciation for all that you do. I trust that you received the flowers I sent for the crosses after they were desecrated, and the small token of financial support I sent to the Crawford Peace House in appreciation, and in memory of your son. I cannot imagine your sorrow and applaud you for what you have done with that pain. I am moved by your commitment to the cause of peace and to this country. By God, I cannot thank you enough!
As I sit down this evening, knowing it’s probably not a good thing for me, as a person of American Indian descent, to so much as open this Pandora’ box on the eve of what is a “holiday” for mainstream America, but what for me and my people is a day of mourning-commemorating the sacrifices our people have made–the loss of our lifeways, our languages, our families, our ceremonies, above all, our lands–so that your people may continue to occupy these territories (in many cases, illegally, with centuries of your governments support) if not in peace, then at least in relative prosperity, I do not know how to express my own grief, and, now–having made the mistake of reading your diary–my outrage. I ask that you sit down now and listen to me–to my grief, my outrage, and my pain which, tonight, is directed to you (hang on, I’ll get to what you did to twist the knife in my side).
I had no intention of intruding on your holiday celebration, or on anyone else’s–my previous posts attempting to alert this community to its own callous indifference and reckless disregard for Indian issues haven’t exactly gone over like sweet potato pie, and I had pretty much resigned myself to just shutting up about the fact that it is not only Native American Heritage Month and that Thanksgiving is a National Day of Mourning for Us and about the fact that these “issues” are not, contrary to popular misconception, matters of “the distant” past. I had hoped my next post in this series would be an “action item”–a post offering those people in this community who are sensitive to Indian issues and who do care about them some concrete avenues for action. Alas, your diary has once again demonstrated the need for continued persistence in drawing the attention of this community to the many and myriad ways you participate–perhaps unwittingly–in the ongoing assaults against American Indian sensibilities and the rewriting of your own history as well as ours, and I am compelled to respond.
Perhaps you are entirely unaware of the fact that this is for us a day of mourning. One cannot fault you for that–centuries of your statesmen and teachers have [“felt it better this way” http://www.creative-native.com/ . Last year, Michael Moore
posted this explanation on his website:
Even though the first explorers [. . .] had been warned about the heathen savages found in the “New World”, they found the First Peoples [. . .] more than willing to teach them how to survive and live well in their new surroundings. [. . .]
At the end of their first year, the Puritans held a great feast following the harvest of food from their new farming efforts. The feast honored Squanto and their friends, the Wampanoags. The feast was followed by 3 days of “thanksgiving” celebrating their good fortune. This feast produced the image of the first Thanksgiving that we all grew up with as children. However, things were doomed to change. [. . .]
An army of over 200 settlers was formed [. . .] Because of the lack of fighting experience, and the vast numbers of the fierce Pequot warriors, Commander John Mason elected not to stage an open battle. Instead, the Pequot were attacked, one village at a time, in the hours before dawn. Each village was set on fire with its sleeping Natives burned alive. Women and children over 14 were captured to be sold as slaves; other survivors were massacred. [. . .]
In 1641, the Dutch governor of Manhattan offered the first scalp bounty; a common practice in many European countries. This was broadened by the Puritans to include a bounty for Natives fit to be sold for slavery. The Dutch and Puritans joined forces to exterminate all Natives from New England, and village after village fell. Following an especially successful raid against the Pequot in what is now Stanford, Connecticut, the churches of Manhattan announced a day of “thanksgiving” to celebrate victory over the savages. This was the 2nd Thanksgiving. During the feasting, the hacked off heads of Natives were kicked through the streets of Manhattan like soccer balls.
The killing took on a frenzy, with days of thanksgiving being held after each successful massacre. Even the friendly Wampanoag did not escape. Their chief was beheaded, and his head placed on a pole in Plymouth, Massachusetts, where it remained for 24 years. Each town held thanksgiving days to celebrate their own victories over the Natives until it became clear that there needed to be an order to these special occasions. It was George Washington who finally brought a system and a schedule to thanksgiving when he declared one day to be celebrated across the nation as Thanksgiving Day.”
Thanksgiving: Its True History (East Texas Review, 25. Nov. 04)
But what he might not have made clear is that the abuse is ongoing. The poverty rates (2.6 percent higher for Native Americans than for the rest of America), the suicide rate (190 percent higher for us than for the rest of America), homocide (210 percent), over 50 percent unemployment on or near reservations, 16.9 percent of American Indians without basic phone service (compared to 2.4 percent in the general populace), 14.7 percent without basic plumbing (compared to 1.2 percent for the rest), and on and on and on.
Mahtowin Munro (Lakota) and Moonanum James (Wampanoag) put it this way in their statement on the subject last year
When we dare to stand up for our rights, we are considered unreasonable. When we speak the truth about the history of the European invasion, we are often told to “go back where we came from.” Our roots are right here. They do not extend across any ocean.
National Day of Mourning began in 1970 when a Wampanoag man, Wamsutta Frank James, was asked to speak at a state dinner celebrating the 350th anniversary of the pilgrim landing. He refused to speak false words in praise of the white man for bringing civilization to us poor heathens. Native people from throughout the Americas came to Plymouth, where they mourned their forebears who had been sold into slavery, burned alive, massacred, cheated, and mistreated since the arrival of the Pilgrims in 1620.
But the commemoration of National Day of Mourning goes far beyond the circumstances of 1970.
Can we give thanks as we remember Native political prisoner Leonard Peltier, who was framed up by the FBI and has been falsely imprisoned since 1976? Despite mountains of evidence exonerating Peltier and the proven misconduct of federal prosecutors and the FBI, Peltier has been denied a new trial. Bill Clinton apparently does not feel that particular pain and has refused to grant clemency to this innocent man.
To Native people, the case of Peltier is one more ordeal in a litany of wrongdoings committed by the U.S. government against us. While the media in New England present images of the “Pequot miracle” in Connecticut, the vast majority of Native people continue to live in the most abysmal poverty.
Can we give thanks for the fact that, on many reservations, unemployment rates surpass fifty percent? Our life expectancies are much lower, our infant mortality and teen suicide rates much higher, than those of white Americans. Racist stereotypes of Native people, such as those perpetuated by the Cleveland Indians, the Atlanta Braves, and countless local and national sports teams, persist. Every single one of the more than 350 treaties that Native nations signed has been broken by the U.S. government. The bipartisan budget cuts have severely reduced educational opportunities for Native youth and the development of new housing on reservations, and have caused cause deadly cutbacks in health-care and other necessary services.
Are we to give thanks for being treated as unwelcome in our own country?
OK, so what have you done to once again break open these wounds, to stick your foot smack dab in the middle of my heart and cause me to waste yet another evening trying to make you and your people understand how offensive you can be, perhaps with no intent, but nevertheless offensive?
Trail of tears. Do you know, do you have any idea what that term means? What it is? It’s not a metaphor or turn of phrase to us, Cindy. And it’s not a national park either: it is a historical event. A major one which resulted in the deaths of at least 4,000 Cherokee people. At least. What is more, it is symbolic of the brutal policies of Indian removal pursued by the American government in its quest for “living space” (Lebensraum). It was a murderous event, a murderous, murderous period in the history of this country that set the stage for the past hundred years of continued brutality. And the Cherokee Trail of Tears was but one of many. My entire family was lost in forced removal from our lands that my people call the “Anishinabe Trail of Tears.”
Now, I understand your grief, really, I do, Cindy. As I stated from the onset, I cannot imagine the loss of a son. Perhaps that is why I chose not to have one–because I lost my entire family–and in fact generations of my family to what some people might call “the American dream”. To me and to five generations of my family, this dream has been a nightmare–and all I’ve got to show for it is my very own broken treaty, a drawer full of death certificates and generations of memory (for that I am extremely grateful.
I’m sorry, but I read that “trail of tears” and I said to myself: How dare you? How dare you presume to put the loss of one son–even if it is the only one–one child, one life–on a par with the losses sustained not only by the Cherokee people, but by every nation of American Indians in this country–some of whom have been wiped out entirely.
I have to assume that you know not what you do. That you are innocently oblivious to the degree of insult that is involved here. So I am attempting to tell you. This term “Trail of Tears” is not “up for grabs” as a generic metaphor for suffering. It isn’t. It is ours. And every time it is used, it should remind you–and each and every one of you–of the millions of people whose lives, lifeways, languages and lands were sacrificed so that you might ramble and roam `or these our canyons, our plains, our forests, our lakes, rivers and streams. You and your family have suffered a great loss, Cindy Sheehan, and I have indeed put my money, my time, my energy and my physical presence behind my enthusiastic support of your efforts–in recognition of that terrible loss. But we as American Indians have lost more than just one family member and the Trail of Tears–that tragic historical event–is seared in our hearts, minds and souls as a reminder of that loss. Your family’s tragedy is not a “trail of tears.” Tragic, yes. Heroic, in many ways. A terrible sacrifice, yes, but it is not a trail of tears because even if the term “trail of tears” were to be taken “metaphorically,” trails of tears involve generations of sacrifice, and not just of lives. Trails of tears involve the sacrifice of lifeways, of languages, and, above all, of lands.
You are on Indian land, Cindy Sheehan. You are on Indian land. All of you. You are on Indian land.
I was going to write a diary in response to all of those at the Orange Empire asking a simple question:
“What do the Iraqi’s have to be thankful for today?”
Followed by the opening line of:
Why is their pain and grief less important than the families of the US soldiers who invaded their country? And why is their grief and pain not included in the “trail of tears”?
But then I figured I’d just walk away since no one really wants to answer that question either… and the answer would probably not be one that most proud American’s would really be too happy with… Exceptionalism in it’s starkest (pun intended) form.
Wado Stark. I think you could have found a less inflammatory title for your piece vs. calling out Cindy, but hey, no one deserves to be on a pedestal, your pain is real and free speech & truth in history is crucial.
Peace
Hey Spiderleaf,
Taking a smoke break here while the wrapper on the wonder bread melts in the oven ;). Yeah, I coulda found a less inflammatory title, and you know what, the message would have disappeared quicker than you can say “I love the smell of cold turkey in the morning”.
In one of my comments, I also attempted to explain from whence the title came: namely, straight from the gut. When I read those three little words in that context, it was like someone kicked me in the stomach. And the first thing I thought was “How dare you, Cindy Sheehan?”–so the title was just ruthlessly, brutally honest. That is all.
To have subsequently been gangbanged over there for “speaking that truth to power” well, fuck it, was to be expected (though it took me off guard).
I certainly don’t regret it: it did what it was supposed to do, whether I wanted it to or not: it got their motherfucking attention now, didn’t it?
Spirit works in weird ways, and we cannot control it.
So, now back to that loaf o’ wonder bread in the oven. 😉
Oh, and sorry to ignore the question of the Iraqis….know that it, too, rests in and weighs heavily on my heart this day.
Hey, you beat me to that… I forgot to mention that yeah, had you titled it something like “Thanksgiving on the Rez” over there no one would have read it because the issues are too uncomfortable for most American’s to deal with as they cook their birds, watch football and get ready for the shopping day…
I’m glad you posted this here. It is really important stuff and I’m sure the Iraqi’s will forgive you for being more focused on your own ancestor’s genocide just for one day.
I don’t mean to be niave, but what are they getting all upset over? I didn’t see anything inflamatory in what you wrote?
I think they don’t like the fact that I decided to throw a loaf of wonder bread in the oven today instead of a turkey–and I must admit, it was the best damn loaf of wonder bread I’ve had in a loooooong time. 😉
Seriously, I really don’t know–especially if you look at the troll-rating they’re doing on my comments.
Holy fucking mother of jeesus, I even managed to keep the fucking F words to a minimum and generally maintain at least modicum of civility–especially by comparison to some of the brutal, brutal savagery that came out in the comments.
All I can say, is when you unleash a shitstorm of that magnitude with so relatively few words, you have GOT to be on to something. Yeah, there’s gotta be something to my words, or they would not be twisting themselves around the pylons the way they are.
They’re young, some are Not Bright, and, just in the nature of things, they don’t know how to read or parse well-done persuasive prose. Nobody teaches political rhetoric any more, just marketing-speak, and most of today’s “progressives” would refuse to study it anyway…
And that was a very well-done rant…
Thank you Starkravinglunaticradical for posting your diary here. There are ancestors before me who walked that trail, though I don’t know if any were lost along the way to Oklafuckinhoma. I can only imagine that much of their heart if not thier lives were lost though.
I seriously doubt that you will find a single member here who will flame you or call you a troll like over there. That’s not how this community operates.
Peace
when their nerves get triggered. Your blast only set off a firestorm because it made people who think they are purely white feel uncomfortable. I’m glad Cindy apologized and edited her post elsewhere. I’m pretty sure she didn’t realize how offensive co-opting “Trail of Tears” would be to those of us who cherish our Native ancestry.
I suppose you could have been a bit more polite in correcting her but, ya’know, I don’t remember anyone in Leftblogistan being polite to Trent Lott when he made a major verbal foopaw. Just because someone is valued by “our side” doesn’t mean they shouldn’t get both barrels when they’re wrong. Hey, just remember what happened to Obama… LOL!
I’m so glad I live here at the placid Pond; the melodrama at the other place is too disturbing.
Excellent diary and highly recommended. Travesty is far to small a word to begin to encompass what has happened to the First People but the ongoing shame in our country is what continues to happen to them on all the reservations around the country.
Regrettably, challenging the assumptions of the 401k liberals (or “new school” progressives, or whateverthef***theycallthemselvesthisweek) gets met with stiff resistance. Somewhere I recall a statement by Frederic Jameson that history is what hurts – and my ancestors’ history of genocide is particularly painful. It is crucial to face that painful reality though. Keep on speaking up.
On a somewhat unrelated note: I suspect that eventually DKos will drop Ms. Sheehan like a hot potato once she’s no longer useful for Dem partisan purposes. Her days of being on the recommended list are sadly numbered – and it’s a shame as she too is a living reminder of our painful national history. Mark my words: the moment she becomes a threat to the partisan hopes for majority, she’ll be flamed by the very same individuals who accuse you of trolling now.
“401 K liberals”! Now, that one has been permanently added to my vocabulary. Thanks so much. lol.
401 k liberals
perhaps James thought it up himself, or perhaps he saw it here
great minds often think alike.
kudos! Read the comment, you’re spot on, of course.
At any rate, it is an apt descriptor–worthy of widespread duplication and repitition.
Sometimes it takes that kind of descriptor for its target to realize what the “problem” is.
I didn’t see the original comment, so here, have a “4” now for “401K liberals”. Wish I could make it a higher number (401, maybe?). ‘Tis brilliant.
It’s a term I’d seen before somewhere, and that dkos comment definitely reminded me of it. Whoever coined the term originally must have been inspired. 🙂
Hey Stark, I just want you to know, I, for one, am not offended in the least. I am an admirer of the only true Americans of this great nation I am allowed to live in. Thank you so much for that. I am so enjoying y our diaries. Keep them coming, please. I am a big girl and can take most of what is dealt. I just want us all to live in peace, if that is at all possible. All politics aside, and not much other than that we are all human, I give to you my greatest appreciation, for ever it is worth. I certainly owe your nation an apology for what we have done to you. I only wished I could have done more to rectify this tragedy. My best to you and yours, not just this day but every day…. all the time.
Where things are calmer. MAN some of what people wrote over there bothered me. First, slamming you bugged me — can’t people use the least objectivity in reading? You put so much thought into making sure you started out complimenting her.
I wrote half a million posts in both threads calling for moderation, until I thought I was monopolizing the whole thing — and no doubt should get a life and some sleep.
Second, people bowing down to Cindy bugged me. Call me an idiot, but every time I’m part of a group that erects an icon to worship, it just gives me the willies. It’s like people are going to elevate themselves by complimenting her and groveling in front of her. I’m with you, Stark, I’ve the utmost respect for what she’s done, but GEE, groveling at someone’s image doesn’t make the world a better place. Cindy’s not perfect, none of us are. Sheesh.
Next, I did something I found rather illuminating. I clicked on Cindy’s comments, so I could read her replies gathered in one place. First — her replies in her diary and yours were substantially different. Second —An hour or more after she’d “apologized” to you, she was using “trail of tears” in a post about her life. In the world I inhabit, that invalidates the apology.
But what would I know about all that.
AFA the general problem of such “flame wars”. Typing into a computer allows some people to completely leave all bounds of manners behind. Or, if they use the same manners at home, heaven help them. I think there really is something about the 2D screen than engenders this.
Being here = better.
by what you wrote, they DEFINITELY need to get out a bit more. Go work in a few blue collar jobs. Then they’ll know what verbal abuse is — and be a little more qualified to read something like what you wrote, and know that it is not abusive.
Oh boy. Thanks for the skinny on Cindy; sadly, I had hoped she’d be rising above the fray: had I been in her shoes, I’d have come out there and lambasted every one of them for their dispicable behavior with a few simple words: Hey folks, not in MY name. Alternately, what is the “noble cause” you people have gone to war against Stark for?
So anyway, now I know not to bother attempting to write her a private letter, and now I know where NOT to send any more checks or flowers.
Hell, I’ll keep attending the vigils, because as I said in one of my (few) responses, that part just aint about Cindy anymore, it’s about this motherfucking filthy lyinass war. But that’s another story.
Thank you for doing what you could.
so others could do it if they wanted — compare their reaction to mine. Click on Cindy’s name somewhere, then you have her diary, then click on comments up at the top, and you have a list of the latest things she wrote. It can be a really fascinating way to learn about a poster’s views.
BTW, did you note that “trail of tears” was edited out of her Truthout piece? Search on “trail” in that piece — there’s nothing with it.
is to use that Comments trick. Go to her diary, click on her comments, and start rating up. Or not, heh — but it’s easy to do for someone that way.
And I must admit: that would be greatly appreciated.
It’s not so much that I place stock in Mojo or rep over there; it’s just that I have this wierd quirk: INJUSTICE drives me to distraction, at times to the brink of insanity (that quirk has been the single most powerful motivating factor in my life since the day I crawled out of the womb of a single, alcoholic, American Indian woman on welfare [alternately, waitressing, cleaning rich people’s houses, working third shift at the foundry] with 5 kids and an eighth grade education because from that day forward I began witnessing the way social injustice destroyed a very intelligent, very beautiful woman (and all but one of her children I might add), one whom I happened to call “mom”).
What happened over there on the ratings was NOT fair. Whatever their beef may have been with what I had to say, their response was unjust.
And these are the people we’re supposed to entrust with re-instating any sense of JUSTICE and INTEGRITY to this broken system?
Not.
i understand, and greatly sympathize, with how you feel about your treatment at the orange site. i’ve had some time on my hands today and i have read your posts and many of the comments in the threads both here and there. and there was a great deal of unfairness directed at you, in addition to some thoughtful posts. the behavoir you experienced is nothing new though, and has been ongoing for a while. many of us have experienced something similar although i will say you did hit the hornets nest.
it’s a partisan political site. nothing more. not really.
Fwiw,
I went in and did what little I could for your mojo problem by rating your comments within the diary. I couldn’t rate your comments in other diaries for some reason.
Can’t rate in older diaries, and after a while, you can’t comment in them, either.
system” – especially when an entire community is offended by the diarist. i witnessed this debacle first hand.
and, no, i do not have a 401k, no, i am not young – quite the contrary, and no, i do not agree with those who chose to deliberately disrupt and attack others who are undeserving of those attacks.
this diarist had quite the little field day at kos – making flaming accusations, then leaving only to return and troll rate posters who took offense.
it is the height of cowardice to “start a war” then leave and watch from the sidelines as people are hurt and distressed. she didn’t even have the courage to participate with intelligent and meaningful discourse on the issues.
before you folks jump to defend, perhaps you should know what was going on…. oh, wait – her “diary” miraculously disappeared – she claims she didn’t delete it, but every person with authority to do so has stepped up and categorically denied they did it – leaving only the poor pathetic sad injured wounded little stark – with no proof of her own culpability in upsetting, angering, insulting and offending so many people on thanksgiving – not in the least, cindy sheehan – who was ONLY talking about the sadness and loss brought about by the death of her son.
really, before you buy the whole enchilada – you should check the “expiration date”
the most offensive part of this entire pathetic little “poor me” episode is that she tried to engage a completely separate site in the process. the folks at boomantribune don’t deserve to be dragged through the manure pile as was dailykos.
verify, verify, verify – that is the only way not to be taken in by a fraud!
this said, my criticism of this diarist has absolutely NOTHING To do with the issues she brought up. the sad part is that the issues never got discussed because it was all about the diarist!
blow away the smoke and see the real issue and real damage please!
I think you’re making an assumption that the denials on deleting the diary are verifiable. It is a she said, he said, she said. We have absolutlely no evidence, one way or the other.
If you set the standard for veracity, you must live with it.
technical fact: ONLY administrators can delete a diary AND the diarist.
the circumstantial evidence that i choose to believe is that prior deletions have been explained – this one was not so offensive to be deleted – ONLY the comments that were made that were detrimental to the diarist. AND add the “fact” that the diary, sans comments appear here at this site in an attempt to further the “argument”, added to the dramatic lack of participation of the diarist in other diaries that attempted to discuss the problem that people had with her approach lead me to believe that the ONLY person benefiting from the deletion of that diary was the one who wrote it.
no, i cannot “prove” it – but you can bet there are administrators of the kos community who are looking into this attempt to smear and slander the site – just as this diary is doing.
do you realize that intelligent discourse on the ISSUES has stopped and it now revolved around this diarist and her perceived slight?
look at the entire picture – look at the achieved results. has ANY serious discussion of native american issues resulted from her posting of the kos and this diary? no.
has this been a “we are with you” diary stroking the ego of the diarist while chastising those who “dissed” her? you bet!
is this a productive behavior on a political site? nope it is the quickest way to kill an active, engaged site where people come to discuss issues.
this type of behavior was directly responsible for the demise of the Time.Online site and the spinoffs – which makes me think that maybe all the diarist’s rhetoric had a purpose, after all!
Welcome, Rep. John Conyers, but would you mind if we go excoriate everyone over some imaginary slight instead of helping you set the timeline for the DSM??? it really IS more important, ya know!
wake up, folks – smell the “latte”!!!
Debraz,
Look. In the attempt to prevent this (ongoing) scandal from “bleeding out” over here, I explicitly stated in the diary “my only request is that you do it over there”. I have not engaged in any of this posters’ voluminous comments on the other site and have now downrated his/her first comment to this diary in the attempt to squelch any further discussion of this matter here.
The “evidence” for the fact that I was not the one who deleted the diary is, unfortunately, to be found in this thread, combined with a couple of others on both sites
( Or, maybe BooMan can LOCk this thread. Can you do that BooMan? That might be the best option–preserve it, but prevent further posts? Alternately, maybe someone else can come in and post this diary and this thread elsewhere, just “for the record”.)
But I would prefer that we not continue to discuss or engage this issue over here.
Yeah, the battle is ongoing, but it really doesn’t belong here. And this poster knows that.
Everyone on this site is familiar with dKos and is certainly able to go over there and see what’s going on at his/her leisure.
Stark, I love your diaries. They make me think.
I’m not even going to bother looking over at the orange place to see what happened. I’ve seen it too many times before anyway.
Glad you’re here at the pond.
Hey, StarkRLR, I’m glad you are talking about this over here. Actually, I don’t think we are particularly placid, as we certainly have had a number of disagreements, some ongoing. But we aren’t very anonymous from each other,nor is one-up-person-ship a big deal, so more florid flaming quickly gets people working to help flamers calm down.
I appreciate what you said, like Supersoleing, those past family histories are part of mine, too – confounded by the mixture of encroachers upon the encroached that leaves me permanently angry about the history of our country. I never understood why my great aunts were so vexed about the Trail of Tears until I was an adult, until I understood the loss of heritage they were quietly trying to impress upon their grand nieces and nephews.
Your title was very provocative, such that you likely should have expected hostile, shoot-from-the-hip reactions. However, I do understand that it’s frustrating to write something and have it go unnoticed, sinking like a stone. And you did get reasoned, thoughtful (can I say Trib-Pond-like?) responses, too. Frankly, I think the combination will make subsequent diaries of yours, if you write them, get more attention.
TU status, so I can’t even go in there and troll-rate the bastards who have called me every fucking name in the book.
Unbelievable. Unbelievable.
Yep, TU status wiped out by a loaf of wonder bread!
(O mi god, what’s that going to do to my CV?! Certainly everyone knows that that TU status was the most highly valued and respectable “credential” I ever had).
LOL.
I lost my TU status (either by a computer glitch or because I troll rated Kos) permanently.
lol.
Consolation indeed.
Went after the big K himself, eh? (we kid the kos, really, we do!)
He did say something very inflamatory (at least to me) and just folowed his instructions (troll rated him)
But it felt gooooood 🙂
something I don’t understand, but I think it has to do more with how often one contributes a diary and/or comments.
I lose mine if I haven’t posted a diary in a week, so I’ll post one and the TU come’s back. I seldom comment over there so that’s why I think it has to do with diary contributions.
In between preparing and eating the turkey, the dressing, the quiche and the vegetable, and throwing down wine, I was reading stuff on Kos and on Booman.
Man, some of these people cannot take valid criticism of public individuals who may or may not be s/heroes.
I see the same sh*t whenever someone else or I say, for example, that Kerry was more or less a sellout. He sold out the largest, natural constituency in the Democratic Party for some crumbs about face. Meaning, of course, black folks.
Few people really want to look at this, because I feel black people are at the crux of this whole thing between Dems and Repubs right now. The more they ignore this and other instances of sellout and gutlessness (like Gore, too in 2000), the less credibility and moral stance Dems have as a party that’s supposed to be different than that of Repubs.
I thought Shanikka’s column later was excellent, too.
I was not able to read Cindy’s original diary, only her apologia, because she tore it down. I think that it should have stayed. Why? Because tearing it down didn’t solve anything or really change her mind. But it might have continued to provide a reality check for other readers or allowed them to make up their own minds.
I too get bothered when certain whites try to commandeer the experiences of people of color to explain their current reality. No doubt, when whites begin to fathom how it is to go against entrenched power in this country, like the war machine or racism, they are taking the first steps to Getting It.
However, I think that I get particularly bothered by their commandeering when there has been no input or actions made by those whites in our communities up to and including that time. Or I read no statements prefacing their remarks like this: “I used to sit in my kitchen/living room watching TV (a different reality) thinking, those kinds of people have no right to complain, demonstrate against the government, the Pentagon, the CIA, etc., and now I know better, and I am sorry to have scapegoated and marginalized people out of my ignorance, white privilege and isolation and yes, racism. I know what it means now, and my eyes have been opened.”
There’s barely none of that.
Instead, it’s like someone putting on a costume. It’s like someone assuming the skin of someone of color for a hot minute and then discarding it when it no longer fits the attitude, the scene or the time.
I like Sheehan and I wish her well. But I’m not tied to her struggle. I think that she needs more than a few visits from say, Rev. Sharpton to get hip, or reading Dee Brown. She needs to visit a few black widows and grand/mothers and orphans of this war. She needs to visit with the Native folk who now valorize the first woman GI to die in war. And etc. Dig me?
Sheehan’s not some kind of rock star/god. She’s a public figure, and as such, she’s must realize that she is going to get respect and criticism for her efforts from both sides of the aisle. If King and Kennedy had the guts to realize this as well as reflect and change about it, then she can, too.
I really, really liked this post blksista. So much good reading and depth all over the pond today. Thanks
Hey blksista,
Thanks for the kind words–what is great about these posts is that they reassure me that all this shit is not “my imagination running away with them”.
Shanikka’s effort to bring reason and sanity to the discussion was truly, truly s/heroic! And eloquent as usual.
And as much as we all like to laugh off the dKos crap, as much as we know that much of it is truly just juvenile bullshit–on the other hand it is not.
The shitstorm that that diary in particular unleashed is so indicative of the depths of denial that are also operative in so much of the so-called “liberal” “community.”
That is what I find frightening, frankly. These are supposed to be the people who are “on our side”, who are “allies”, and above all, the people who are going to “change the course” of this country? Excuse me! God help us all.
If you go in there and compare the comments I made to the bilious crap that was spewed at me, and you see the way these people rated each other up, up, up into a self-righteous frenzy, the way they rated Cindy up to kingdom come (with very little acknowledgement of the fact that her apology was indeed rendered absolutely meaningless by continuing to use the term). God it is frightening. It’s just frightening.
Anyway, as you all know, I could go on about it forever. I won’t. I thank you all for your support and am glad there’s this little hole to crawl in over here….or should I call it a tent? A tent that’s big enough for lil ol me and my bodacious, bad-assed self.
Got a message today from a “silent observer”– It read: “Honey, I blew up the Token Liberal Blog!”….now it would be very, very tempting to STEAL that title…hold me back.
I missed the fight yesterday at big orange. I was too busy with a petty fight with someone who thought I was too mean to Karl Rove of all people. It’s funny sometimes how people behave over there.
Oh, and ps, Blksista–what I think Sheehan and her movement would need would be to be JOINED in their campouts, whether in DC or Crawford, by whole BUNCHES, lots and lots, of KATRINA “evacuees”–In fact, I suggested that very thing right after Katrina and got slammed for that too.
Somehow, someway, a lot of these people need to get a serious grip on the reality of LIVED experience with these “people of color” whose rights they champion and whose causes they support–just as long as “those people” don’t show up on their doorstep (or in their blog or in their face or wherever).
People of color and of Other persuasions are just fine–as “abstractions”, but lord help us all when they suddenly stand up and become real presences whose hands they have to shake, whose stories they have to hear: live in the flesh.
I’m starting to think Barbara Bush spoke as much to some of these people’s fears as she did to the Rethugs’ when she spoke in terms of “that’s a scary thought.”
Scary indeed.
right after Katrina. Covington is just north of New Orleans. From what I know of it, it didn’t come off well, mainly because people were traumatized about the storm and not yet willing to hear comparisons or references to Iraq.
Did she pitch in for a day to help these people, or did she just try to make speeches?
If MLK were alive today, I’d want him making speeches. One speech can launch a million hands, and free millions more minds.
I agree. NOt everything that Cindy does is going to work. But it doens’t matter in the long run. And I appreciate the comparisons to MLK, in the sense that Cindy is serving as an example. She can’t do it all. It takes the participation of everyone concerned and caring to reform a government, and end a war.
I did not intend a comparison, only to say that each of us has a role and a duty to one another. It takes all manner of expression.
he would be helping out FIRST and then saying as few words as possible, yet bearing witness to and for these people. Otherwise, he would be out of his element, with people wondering what the fck is he doing there speechifying.
I saw Sean Penn, Harry Connick, Jr. and Julia Roberts on TV in New Orleans, either passing out water and food, helping rescue folks with the Cajun Navy, or working in the soup kitchen. Now you know, folks are going to remember this. Solidarity can be noiseless and yet powerful at the same time. Sometimes I think people use the wrong strategy at the right time.
honor your opinion. Respectfully ask that you re-read my comment and share with me why my opinion troubled you enough to rate it a 2.
Number one, thank you.
Number two, I refer you to what I said down (up)thread: wrong actions/right place. People who have been impacted by Katrina are not going to listen. Their needs have been turned inward. It’s like throwing seed down on rocky soil. No wonder she may not have gotten the response she wanted.
People are going to remember someone they see who says little yet gives much. If she had gone to a few individuals, introduced herself, held their hands, bussed some food trays, and said that she feels for them and put in a little about how frustrated she feels about government response to the war dead and how that connects…that would have made a stone lotta difference than just giving a speech.
still don’t quite understand why you reacted with a 2 to my opinion. We can agree to disagree, no?
Agreed.
The point I had tried to make was that the “cindy movement” (not Cindy as an individual) could have gained serious traction IF they had sought to hook up with those “evacuees” in the immediate aftermath. What I had suggested was that the Sheehan people actually go down there and provide transportation for lots and lots of people from NOLA to join them in DC, busloads of Katrina “evacuees” arriving in DC to set up their tents on the White House lawn! (or near vicinity, you get the picture).
The Sheehan people could have easily done this–they still had the media spotlight. They could have made the connection between the absent national guard and the way this country’s resources are being wasted in Iraq while we need them here.
Imo, they were strategically stupid not to do that. It could have turned that whole movement into something so much bigger.
I’ll be honest: in August, I was actually advocating for Camp Casey to stay as “white” as possible, urging “hippy types” like me to stay away too: the reason being–public image: the more the thing looked like a good ol red-white-and-blue, mom-and-pop, applie pie movement, the more likely it was to be well-received in the general public and the less likely it was to be decried as a bunch of Michael Moore clones. Basically what I was saying was that the “face” of the movement should be “white, middle class, mom”–deliberately so, strategically so.
But Katrina would have provided THE sterling opportunity to change that strategy, and I think the movement would have EXPLODED if the two issues had been brought together in this way–in DC, not in the south. Those evacuees should have been bussed to DC, they should have shown up on the WH doorstep and refused to leave until their needs and demands had been met.
But the 401K liberals ( and apparently Sheehan’s handlers as well, didn’t want to “share the limelight” with “those people”–they didn’t realize this could have been a “mutually beneficial” thing.
The “Cindy movement” e.g. Veterans for Peace did do a lot of work down in Covington. See this diary by Jim Staro. I really don’t know how it went with Cindy’s trip there, but I do know some VFP folks and I know there were multiple trips of truckloads of much needed supplies that were taken to Covington from people here in Austin. They were there for a while (for all I know, some may still be).
I have a real problem with the idea “Those evacuees should have been bussed to DC”. I know several people now living in Austin who went through hell in the days following Katrina. I can’t imagine “bussing them” anywhere. They were in shock and in pain. They have a long road ahead. They need to heal as best they can, not be bussed anywhere.
I can see that end of it, but I also think in the long run, it would have been better–it really would have been better–if in an organized effort, the evacuees would have gone to Washington and stood on the doorstep of the wh demanding not only answers, but solutions.
Why were we left stranded with no food, water, medical supplies, etc. for days and days?
Why didn’t the US government even have the wherewithal to airlift supplies?
Why did this happen?
And, where are we going to go now?
We will stay until you provide answers.
Engaging in an organized, collective effort of that nature might actually have had more healing impact in the aftermath of that trauma than anything else, especially for those who are still to this day crammed into cheap hotels and, to the best of my knowledge, are still being threatened with eviction (or did that plan get changed?)
The other thing, you know, crawford isn’t all that far away, is it? Can you imagine the impact of a hundreds of Katrina evacuees arriving in Crawford to ask the president where they’re supposed to spend the winter?
I think it would be a powerful thing.
is that it is not for you or I to say what they should do or should have done. That is up to them. The people I know spent from Monday til Saturday going through absolute hell in NO after Katrina. There followed an evacuation that was almost as bad, arriving in Austin in the early morning hours Saturday. You just can’t imagine how fragile and traumatized they were at that time.
A friend posts here as Othniel – see his diaries about our NOLA folks here, and here (or orange version with pictures here), and here. and especially this comment.
He spent a couple of weeks every day at our convention center where they stayed at the beginning. One thing he would do was just go walking with them around downtown Austin. The convention center was crowded and noisy – it was good to just get away and have someone to talk to for a while. One man that he’d walk with – the first time, they headed towards the river, which is only a couple of blocks from the convention center. The man panicked at the sight of the water. Lesson learned – go the other direction when walking with him. He should have been put on a bus so he could protest in DC? I don’t think so.
And although they are doing the best they can now, their road is still so difficult and painful, and will be. The people I know are now in apartments, with donated furniture and clothes. They are all religious and praise God for their survival and the good people who have helped them. But families have been ripped apart. Generations of friends and neighbors have been scattered. The younger ones are looking for jobs. Children are trying to fit in at new schools. All are worried about their finances and the future.
I see such deep hurt in their eyes. Myrtle, a few weeks ago, describing her trip back, “I know I’ll never go back again. There’s nothing there for me anymore.” She’s in her 60’s. Said with such sorrow and acceptance. Veronica, who is about the same age, told me, “I don’t cry so much, now, every day. I’m getting better.” Troy is in NO now – he’s an electrician and thought there’d be work for him there, but he tells me that there’s no electrical work now. He’s been roofing, though he hates it and is afraid of heights.
Please read the links I’ve put in this diary, and also, go to Alive in Truth for more New Orleanians telling their stories.
Statements like, “they should have been bussed” and “imagine the impact” . . . I’m sorry, it’s making me cry. It seems to me that you are seeing Myrtle and Troy and Veronica and Irie and Liz and Ruffin and all of those who I have been privileged to come to know, as political statements of some kind. They are human beings. Each one is different. Please go read their stories. Listen to them. They must heal as best they can, each in their own way. It is not for you or I to say what they should do, what “would have an impact” on the political landscape. Your entire diary is a plea for people who have not gone through what those who have suffered know all too well to listen. Please listen to the NOLA survivors before you determine what they should be doing.
You misunderstand me.
My point is
What I am saying is, looking at it both in long term and in the context of the history, there was a huge potential (and maybe there still is) for this whole group of people to extract from the government LONG-TERM, sustainable solutions to many of the problems that led to the disaster in the first place (racially determined poverty being first and foremost amongst them). They really didn’t have any place else to go to begin with, and very little to lose: and some of them are still in the same boat right now.
If there had been an organized effort to say, hold community meetings to discuss the best plan of action: to say, look, so here’s the deal. We’ve all just been through hell. What lies ahead is more hell. We know that, because these fuckers don’t care, and they WILL let us fall off the radar as soon as possible unless we do something dramatic. So what is our best shot at getting some sort of acceptable solution out of this? In that context, one could have proposed an organized effort along the lines of “hey, how about we all get together, organize some busses and go directly to Washington to demand that these issues be addressed now, in the immediate aftermath, and in such a way that long-term solutions are found.” Could be that there would have been no community support for that proposal. Could be. Could also be that there WAS.
i am appalled – i was willing to give you a great deal of slack – but you are out of your effing mind!
you REALLY expect ANY organization to further exploit the victims of katrina by callously dragging people who have just lost their homes, jobs, loved ones into a protest????
i’m glad you are distancing yourself from what the camp casey movement stands for – they and the anti-war movements do not need “suggestions” or “actions” as you have described!
sheez~
Thanks Stark for engaging this disucssion. You have taught me alot.
Yesterday for just a minute or two I watched a c-span discussion on the 60’s civil rights struggle.
During the question period a Latina mother who lost her son in Iraq asked why the anti-war movement today is so “white.” Especially with all of the targeted recruiting of the military in the poor communities of color, and therefore, the disproportionate number of black and brown young that are dieing over there.
The panelists really didn’t answer her question.
You just did Stark. Thanks!
to rip the cover off of the plight of African Americans inner city, and the working poor in general.
I’m encouraged that so many continue to write about the issues after the storm, but the work to be done in this country, as far as economic justice, as far as recognition that economic disparities do at times revolve around issues of race…roll up your sleeves.
I for one would like to see the “s” word, socialism, not kicked around like a dirty step child of the left.
Not everyone can provoke a good flame war.
And you did get people to read the piece.
Best wishes.
Starkraving, I just had to go over to Kos and check out the shitstorm, and holy smokin’ Jesus, now I feel like I need a shower! I only got about two thirds of the way through the comments on your diary, couldn’t take any more. I was pathetically glad to see some voices of sanity sprinkled amongst the hysteria, but overall, my god, what a hatefest.
I’ve been politically active for more than 25 years. I’m a feminist, and a lesbian, and white. In those 25 years, I have, at times, ripped strips off well-meaning Left men, for language and statements that revealed unreflective sexism, assumptions about their own centrality that they had never challenged, for acting on privilege that they’d never bothered to notice they had.
I’ve done the same thing with straight people, male and female, for their unexamined heterosexism.
And I have had strips torn off me by women of colour, for my own unexamined racism, for not bothering to notice my centrality and privilege as a white person.
We all lived through the experience. Some of us even learned something.
If we are “on the same side” (as some commenters on the Kos diary kept citing as a reason for you to shut up), we have to learn to take criticism from each other when we screw up.
If Cindy Sheehan is more than an icon, more than our Gold Star Mom, if she is a serious political activist, she has to learn about, and from, the folks she’s working with. And maybe she has to learn by getting called out for her ignorance. It’s a tough way to learn (as I can personally testify), but damn, you don’t forget the lesson in a hurry.
Thank for your courage in posting your diary, starkraving. I hope you’re not feeling too bruised by the response. Stay well, and keep posting. We urgently need folks like you to keep speaking up.
Damn fine comment! We need to keep our own houses clean if we’re going to point fingers at the filth piling up in the Bushites’ mansions. And we need to keep our own houses clean anyway.
To borrow a bit from Scribe’s wonderful diary yesterday, we need to listen. Whatever minor injustices I’ve personally faced over the years don’t give me any claim to knowing fuck-all about injustice. I often find it necessary to just shut up, listen, and learn from people who can school me about matters beyond my experience.
I started on the blogs in early 2002, not long after 9/11, first running into the rightwinger blogs like Instacraphead, and soon after that to the early lefty blogs. I was a regular on DKOS for years, under a different name. I started posting regularly there in late 2002 or early 2003, about three software editions back.
On Easter Sunday in March this year I came home from church in the morning feeling peaceful and calm–and I started posted on a Terry Schiavo post on DKOS, taking a moderate, reasoned pro-life position, and I got nuked back into the stone age. I had been a trusted regular for years, and I got nuked so bad I not only lost my trusted user status, I lost posting privileges. I was annihilated. Completely destroyed.
It’s puzzling that a significant percentage of the average regular posters at DKOS believe that they personally represent the highest ideals of the left and are personally required to destroy dissent. How Fox News of them.
starkravinglunaticradical, I wouldn’t be surprised if you hated some of my beliefs, but for what it’s worth I was very moved by your diary. For what it’s worth, for personal reasons I won’t go into, a significant percent of my charitable giving over the last 15 years has been to Native American schools in North Dakota, South Dakota, and some other states. I live in Maryland. I’ve never been to North or South Dakota. As I said, I have some special reasons.
Whatever your reasons for supporting those schools, thank you for doing it.
Could be that I may disagree with some of your beliefs, but just for the record: hatred is an emotion that’s pretty alien to me. I can honestly say that I don’t “hate” anyone or anything. It’s just not in my emotional vocabulary.
Please read this slowly and ponder. As if that’s possible online. I’m saying this for everyone to contemplate, not that anyone is still reading in this diary! But hey. You post with the available time you have, not the time when everyone else is posting (right, Rummy?)
You say, “posted on a Terry Schiavo post on DKOS, taking a moderate, reasoned pro-life position.”
Well, I wonder if I know which poster you were, but truly I have no idea. There was one person who started a diary about the idea that she should live because she might recover, IIRC. But I digress.
Here’s the point to ponder. At the time of the Schiavo mess, my own mother was dying, or trying to. There was a family struggle between those who were in raving denial, (like you can “save” someone that age and have them be anything but a vegetable), and those who wanted to accept that she was dying. In short, I was listening to right wing fundamentalist crap being tossed at me, and knowing she was suffering when she didn’t have to, that she was waiting for everyone to accept — THEN move on. Her ability to think rationally had been gone for years.
Let’s say on the day you posted she looked like a skeleton with skin attached to it. And had for a week. Let’s say I read it.
I might have wanted to hit you over the head with a skillet. By which I mean, I might really have been unable to do anything but react emotionally and irrationally to what you said. I might have WAY over-reacted. I would like to THINK I’d have done better — but I sure can’t guarantee it.
—
In this case, I thought Sheehan was really hurt by the diary. I think this is her first time doing anything political, maybe first time doing anything in group dynamics.
–She’s in severe pain. She is grieving. I’m sure she’s PTSD. She is HOLDING herself in that spot of grief and PTSD “I don’t care if I live or die, I want to confront this issue”, and using the emotions to inspire herself and others to try to create change.
–I have been there, and part of the time you can’t think your way out of a paper bag.
–As such, I’d have expected her to see commonality in Stark’s pain. Seemingly, nope, she saw attack.
–On the other hand, she’s being attacked by tons of people on the right, ugh. By other moms with kids dead in Iraq. Ugh. I don’t think she reacted rationally, I think she reacted defensively…
–On the other hand, she’s surrounded by a lot of people who revere her these days. I think that’s a rough burden for anyone to stay on an even keel. I perceived that she was needing her supporters to tell her she was great… per above, the defensive, hurt reaction.
And finally, isn’t the average IQ 100? Not to be too rude about it, but some of the people posting over there are not nuanced thinkers. Mob behavior is very seductive; I was in my first one at age 6. I still remember all of us short tykes pushing one huge adult out of the door of the room, daycare at a PTA meeting, when we decided we didn’t want to line up any more, we wanted to LEAVE.
And even more finally. Even after we separate out the mob behavior. NONE of us is perfect. No chance Cindy would be, I’m not, Stark isn’t.
So, oh well.
Next?
Thank you, Stark, as I finally, finally, after 1039 days at dKos, had enough of the anti-Indian crap, including the cultural appropriation dressed up as “love” that has flowed like wine over there for years. If you think the reaction of criticizing Cindy was bad, you should have seen the sh*tstorms unleashed when I brought up Governor Dean’s “Indian Problem” back during the primaries (n.b., I have many Deaniac friends IRL, and my campaign manager back in 2004 was a even a Dean delegate.)
I’m so glad to find another Scoop site where one can talk about being Indian without all the non-Indians getting defensive that we’re raining on their Manifest Destiny parade.
Personally, I don’t think people had a problem with you not celebrating white Thanksgiving (in my home, we celebrate Abenaki Thanksgiving on this day), but that so many Americans, purported liberals included, can not come to terms with their colonialist past, or neo-colonialist present, e.g., the New Age-ism which utilized native traditions, culture and language. Even a lot of liberals buy into the dream of the American “melting pot”, and want to believe that everyone else born here is “native” American – which gets sticky if there are still “Native Americans” running around unassimilated. (This all plays into the “I have some NA ancestry, so I can tell all you modern Indians how you really should be acting – and it’s not like old chip on her shoulder Stark!”)
Anyway, wliwni ni, nidobaskwa. I’m sure I’ll be much more comfortable in these new digs.
…mbw, to the Frog Pond! Pop over to the Cafe (you’ll find it in the diary list) to introduce yourself when you get a moment (there’s a new Cafe diary every day). Looking forward to reading your comments, your perspective, and learning. :o)
Hi mbw 🙂
Glad you found your way to the pond.
I have a couple of questions, if you don’t mind. In your comment above you said:
You see, I’m one of those with some NA history but I feel 180 degrees differently than the ones you describe above. So much so that I feel that I have no right to say anything about it or to claim that ancestry beyond just saying it exists, though honestly, I am fiercely proud to have that within me.
There is a wall that I have erected between myself and “real” NA’s that I don’t let myself cross, mainly because I’m afraid of trampling on their sensibilities, and to be honest, afraid of opening myself up to an attack just because 4/5th’s of my ancestry is not NA. In fact as a “white” American and a heterosexual male (oh no!) I feel like a distinct target (not here of course) of many within the fighting far left wing that I consider myself a part of.
My Mother, on the other hand, who is Irish and Italian with no NA blood, has no misgivings about aligning herself with the Seminole Nation in So. Florida. In fact she is a trusted member and even Shaman within that Nation. This has caused conflict between she and I because of my own reluctance to publically flaunt my ancestry. And believe me she has no problem adopting NA, or should I say, co-opting NA history, politics, and self righteousness (her own). To me it is disgusting and dishonest of her to claim any of it for herself. Nonetheless, she is accepted by the Seminole.
So if I may ask, what are your opinions about white Americans like me and my Mother and is it allright from your perspective for anyone outside to claim NA history or beliefs, either through some small amount of blood or by adopting for oneself the Native way of thinking and looking at the world? Even saying the words “native way of thinking” makes me uncomfortable and uneasy. I would ask this same question of Starkravinglunaticradical as well but your comment above caught my attention. I am trying to feel more comfortable within my own skin, such as it is and this trepidation I feel toward engaging in these conversations is bugging the shit out of me. Always has :o)
I appreciate any response you can give me.
Peace
A few of Italian immigrant women around the 1920s got into the Spiritual Church of New Orleans, founded by Mother Leafy Anderson. The Spiritual Church, by the way, was written about in Zora Neale Hurston’s books.
One of these women rose in the hierarchy to be one of the successors to the legacy. In fact, she became a Mother herself.
Some people find it hard to believe that Italian American women would find comity in an African American sect that was an amalgam of Native American worship, holy rollerism, Catholicism and voodoo.
But it happened.
And it must have spoken to these women at a really simple level so that prejudice and racism was not an option.
Italian St. Joseph’s Day altars were adopted by this sect, too. Read here. Scroll down to the middle.
See also The Spirit of Black Hawk: A Mystery of Africans and Indians, by Berry, Jason; published by Mississippi University Press, in 1995. See if your local library or better, college library has a copy of it.
Here’s a link to what I am talking about:
So, in effect, I would not, out of hand, diss your mother’s input in the Seminole Nation. They’ve accepted blacks as well as whites in their community, so long as they have shown their affinity, interest, and have paid dues.
My mother, when I was a little girl, cautioned me not to cheer after the calvary chasing the Indians in movies. Thereafter, when we moved to California, she gave me a boxed collection of detailed, color illustrated books about each major Native American community in the country (for children), from the Iroquois to the Eskimo. My mother didn’t allow me to keep the books after my initial interest waned (after the box fell apart), but I have always remembered them.
Thank you for your reply and for the links. I will dig in a bit later.
I think what I was trying to get at was my own discomfort with my heritage and the risk that is taken by whites such as me when I attempt to engage in discussions with NA’s. The truth for me is that it is a crap shoot as to how I will be recieved when I mention my ancestry. Sometimes welcomed, like my Mother, but other times balked at for being a pretender. There is no easy approach and since the last thing I want is to tread on another’s legacy and pain, often times I just keep my mouth shut. That sucks.
As for my Mother, I hope she realizes how fortunate she is to be welcomed and assimilated into the Seminole Nation. But knowing her as I do, I can say without hesitation that she is a belt notch seeker. Not all her endeavors are altruistic. This is what angers me. I do not diss her path lightly.
On Native Americans and African Americans joining one another, it is true here, on Long Island, that they have almost become one. The Shinnecock Nation of Southampton is derided here by the many nasty and ignorant detractors that they have as not Indians but Niggers. It’s ugly and infuriating and exists right out in the open here. Rednecks can be found all over, not just in the South.
Thanks again.
One more thing on my last paragraph. Seeing as how it seems that African Americans are more readily welcomed into the Native American sphere, at least here, is it because they share a history of oppresion and genocide and as a white, is it that I have not had to suffer these atrocities that they will be sceptical of me? Do I have to be Jewish to weep for the victims of the holocaust with genuine tears? Is it not enough to have red blood like every other on this planet to understand and to express empathy and have that empathy accepted?
So many questions.
Americans for cover. Which gave whites another reason to wipe them out.
Blacks and NA shared a common respect for nature, and were hunters and gatherers. On top of it, they did hate and united against white oppression.
Not all NA readily connected with blacks. It was a mixed bag for the Sioux, the Cherokee, and others. Blacks were more likely to fight against the Sioux as buffalo soldiers–trying to be good American citizens.
Later on, both figured out, sh*t–what are we fighting each other for? By then, however, the damage was done. Not for nothing did some Indians call black soldiers, ‘the black white men.’ I think Chief Dan George said that in Little Big Man.
Escaping slaves also included white indentured servants or slaves as well, particularly in the Caribbean and with the Portuguese in Brazil. In the U.S. and in the Caribbean, these predominantly black but mixed bands were known as maroons. These whites accepted black leadership, married other blacks and if recaptured, suffered just like blacks. (Brazil is known principally for its slave republics called quilombos.) Scots and Irish who had participated in uprisings against the English were once enslaved along with blacks. Scots, Irish and poor English were more likely to be debtors, petty criminals and of course, orphaned or street children.
But I am sure you know some of this already. Read some Ronald Segal, The Black Diaspora.
One more thing about your mom. It could be that the Seminoles know about her assumptions of status and her drawbacks. I don’t think that they could be that fooled. As she may be using them, they may be using her, too.
If she gets way out of line, they’ll draw her up.
And, of course, some Cherokee owned black slaves until the Removal Acts.
As an enrolled Seminole (Brighton) whose ancestors include both black runaway slaves and white “renegades” who joined the tribe sometime before the 1830s, my take is, and always has been, a tribe should decide who is a member. That person could be 100% Nordic by blood.
What I most object to are people – or whatever political persuasion – who pretend to speak for Native Americans. This includes those who take ultra-“nationalist” positions without a clue about what that means.
I think Meteor Blades has great credibility.
I’ve got a little bit of Cherokee roots, 1/64th. Not much–I bet the majority of U.S. citizens have that much or more. (Anybody know?) I’ve inherited from my brother a library on Native Americans. The diversity of tribes was incredible. Some tribes looked black. There were a few (in the deep south) with pale skin and red hair. Hundreds of nations.
I agree with Meteor Blades that it is the tribe (or band) that has the right to declare membership, and it is the tribe that has the right to speak for itself.
I’d also like to see Jack Abramoff dipped with honey and tied over a colony of fire ants. But I guess that’s off-topic. He he.
but perhaps that’s because there’s none in my family. I’m not “pretending” to be all European — I am. I’m a Heinz 57 European, except half one nationality, maybe 4 nationalities on the other side.
But I don’t take that as I’m better or worse than anyone, it’s just a fact. I do in fact get very bent out about white people who’ve never bothered to spend time in groups of people of color, so they have no idea that any other culture exists than whitey-ness. They know no other cultural humor, idioms, customs, etc.
I used to go to pow-wows with a gal who was half Native American, half Swedish, and other members of her family. I looked reasonably in the middle of them, looks-wise, so I’d “pass”. By keeping my danged mouth shut a lot.
At one point, the main crowd I ran with was African Americans. You know, you get one friend, then white people start shunning you. You get props from “the community” for not turning and running, a couple more friends. Now whites think you’re completely nuts, more shunning.
But enough babbling. In my life, I’ve found that when I worked with, went to school with, or whatever, and met different people, if I just respected them and talked to them, I learned stuff. And sometimes had a window into their culture, in terms of moving in it, for at least a while. It amazes me other people don’t do that.
I’m an immigration lawyer! I can relate to this. I just plain like all kinds of people. Though I do have favorites. For example, I have a soft spot for people from the Philippines, who are almost always sweet and warm and sincere (though I’ve known a few criminal exceptions). It’s incredible that they generally like Americans so much, considering that we killed more than 250,000 of them in concentration camps after we conquered the country from the Spanish in 1898.
I think I understand at least a part of your dilema SS.
I had a very different, but somewhat related experience a few years ago. I was part of a large community meeting where an African American man made a comment that was incredibly offensive related to Native Americans. I wanted to speak, but as a white woman (there were no native people in the meeting) was afraid to do so.
A few months later during a break at a training on “Undoing Racism” I talked to the presenter about that experience. His advice to me was profound, but something I’m not sure I’m up to yet. He said that when I had completely known and embraced my own identity, I could speak in those situations. He didn’t say it, but I think he also meant that I would be able to listen and take the heat that might come back at me.
I often think of his advice. Its worth contemplating and working on. Your voice is important, as is mine. It needs to be heard.
Supersoling,
The fact that the Seminole accept your mother is the operative thing, in my view. The way I understand it, to make the claim of “being Indian”, two things are required: documentable lineage and acceptance (or embeddedness within) the community.
I posted a long comment about this on dKos a while back, fwiw, here’s what I said:
Interestingly, everyone’s favourite talking statue recently had a talk on the matter of terms for the native inhabitants of this continent.
Understood and thank you.
I am not seeking to become part of the community and by mentioning my ancestry within discussions I am not seeking any special acceptance other than to say that I do have some “quantum” of blood and within my own spirit I consider myself as much a Cherokee as I do a product of an Irish woman (Grandma Mary) from County Mayo in Ireland or Grandpa Sylvio from Milan.
What NLfromSt.Paul says above will be my endeavor to attain a clearer sense and acceptance of who I am.
Peace
Forgive me…NL*in*ST.Paul :o)
Give me a link…
I’m on the run, so a link or links will have to wait, but the gist of Dean’s problem was his treatment of the Vermont Abenaki while governor. Essentially, his concern over whether a federally-recognized tribe in his state would establish a casino trumped two centuries of mistreatment of the Abenaki, including a state-sponsored eugenics program and retraction of state-sponsored recognition. Dean even threatened a veto if the Vermont legislature provided formal recognition to the tribe and used state funds to try and derail the Abenaki’s application for federal recognition.
My personal issues were with Dean as President, as I think poor treatment of any disenfranchised minority precludes holding the highest office. I’m okay with him as DNC chair, and I do believe that he’s learned from his experience, but that was then, and I feel our grievances were real, not to be brushed aside in the name of “unity”.
Hi mbw.
Thanks for your words. Must admit I’m still reeling from the aftermath of the gang bang (hey you fucking asshole, idiot, dimwitted writer, go fuck yourself, and go fuck yourself again, or, as DarkSyde suggests, take Mr. Rove’s job, you’ve got the spiel down pat.).
Maybe I’m just a glutton for punishment. not. And a lot of my friends accuse me of chasing windmills–and probably I am. I just don’t think the ongoing cycle of imperialist behavior on the part of this country is ever going to stop until the LIBERALS change their thinking and realize that they are engaged in the same, the very same behaviors as the Republicans, it’s just that they put a different twist on it and perhaps end up inflicting less damage.
But until this paradigm shift occurs…there is no hope for this country. It then just becomes a matter of whether we succeed in destroying the planet in 50 years or whether it takes another 100 or so.
The same shit happens on all the liberal blogs: I’ve been tombstoned 3 times on DU, for example, and every time it was because I came out “hard” on these issues. If I thought the “feather” and “dreamcatcher” approach would work, OK, I might be willing to pretend I’m something I’m not (i.e. ” a really nice guy”. lol.), but it’s like they just won’t get it unless you knock em over the head with it.
It didn’t take long to figure out that THIS was the place to go with ideas that go beyond toeing the party line, and especially any ideas that seriously challenge the “dominant” culture.
However, as we all know, dKos does indeed have a much larger audience, and if the issue is CHANGE, there is indeed some value in numbers.
Anyway, just for the record I guess, I’d like to go and look up your “Dean Problem” shitstorm, is it to be found under “mbw” or can you throw me some links here?
The Dean Problem fiasco was over on the pre-Scoop site (I joined Kos way back in Nov ’02), fortunately before the rating system came into use, as I’d have been troll rated pretty consistently when Dean and Abenaki were placed in the same post. The first thing Jerome ever said to me was that I “had no integrity” because of my criticism. Oh well, I’ve always had a real political life outside of the blogosphere, and didn’t need the Deaniac’s, or anyone’s approval on that front.
has become.
Short answer long…you injuns ain’t got enough VOTES to matter over there.
NO minorities are allowed on dKos that can’t help the centrists win a majority.Soon. Not ANY kind. Racial, conceptual, feminist, economic…you name it. If you’re not part of the consensus solution, you are part of ANOTHER problem, and they (the powers-that-be) over there DO NOT WANT any more problems.
Not if’n they get all uppity and challenge a concept that is held by the majority minority. YOU know…the ones who are going to win in 2006 and 2008?
Like the MCMAWMP. (Middle Class, Middle-Aged White Mothers For Peace). There are LOTS of them, and they all vote.
Now before I garner a mini-shitstorm here myself, let me assert that I am…as are you…all FOR Cindy Sheehan. Got absolutely nothing whatsoever against middle class, middle aged white mothers either. Why…I had one myself, don’tcha know.
But my own decidedly minority point of view is that if we do not confront the conceptual mistakes that our society and culture has made…racism being the very FIRST one that must be confronted, because racism leads to economic imperialism, economic imperialism leads to a very angry (and righteously so) Third World (which totals about 4/5ths of the population of the earth), and that leads to trouble with a capital T right here in River City…if we do not confront these mistakes every day in every way possible, large AND small, then we are just postponing the inevitable. We will end up with a kinder, gentler BushCo in power under a “centrist” rubric and this Third World War in which we are presently involved will just keep right on escalating until one day SOME fool goes to the real nuclear option and there we jolly well will be, won’t we.
So what happened to you over there is much the same as what happened during the pie fight thing, what happened in the “tinfoil hat” wars that culminated in the July 4th Massacre.
A minority point of view has been trashed BIG time by an unthinking majority who simply DON’T WANNA HEAR ABOUT IT!!!
It’s bothersome.
It’s counterproductive to the aims of the vast middle.
And the shitstorm ensues.
“We don’t want to HEAR about this shit!!! We’ve got BIGGER fish to fry.”
Like arguing over whether Joe Blowhard is really a ‘good Democrat”.
And so it goes.
Business as usua here in America
Until the shit REALLY hits the fan.
The Civil War.
The Depression
W.W. II.
The ’60s.
At which point…something happens.
Until then…ostrich time.
Keep on trying to pull those heads out of the sand, though.
Out of their own assholes.
It’s a dirty job, but SOMEONE has to do it.
And…have fun.
I am.
Later…
AG
Yep. Spot on: some of them have their heads stuck so far up their asses they can see the backs of their teeth without looking in the mirror.
And for god’s sake, don’t hold up a mirror. Might attract the vampires, you know.
I was fairly optmistic about dKos in the beginning–felt they were more open, more intelligent, more reasonable than say DU.
But when Katrina did not become for them one of those Big shit-hits-the-fan items on a par with the 60s and the other historical events you mention, I knew …..that’s when I knew. Nope. They do not give a fuck about anyone or anything but those votes (and the fact that those votes will be vaporized by Diebold anyway, well, we’ll just forget about that and live with the illusion of democracy. It’s easier that way.)
I agree one of the worst aspects of human nature is gang or pack mentality. IMO, it’s rampant at DKOS and actually encouraged. We saw it through every battle, especially the pie war. When the emotional buttons are pushed, this aspect of human nature is at its ugliest. That’s the reason we have a criminal justice system, to allow cooler heads, the best of our nature to prevail over our primal thirst for blood.
I also would advise any diarist to step back a moment. Emotion is powerful, but without pause, it’s a shot gun approach. I sense that there are issues other than Cindy’s unfortunate and insensitive use of “trail of tears” at work here. My guess is that the offense goes deeper, and that crept in as well.
Anger is powerful, but so is reflection. Use that anger wisely, and ask if it serves you in what you wish to achieve.
dwell on injustice for seven hundred years? Or shall all we descendants of usurpers of somebody else’s land go back to where we came from? Perhaps we could all fight amongst ourselves over what constitutes proper “sensitivity” to others’ concerns? How about we all parse degrees of “Indian-ness” as the Afrikaaners parse degrees of “Blackness”? Would this give us clarity as to who really belongs here?
Has Cindy Sheehan groveled enough for you? Did she apologize with proper sensitivity to your concerns?
Feel better now?
This diary helps get rid of Bush in what way? Helps us get out of Iraq in what way? Helps us win back our country from the treaty breakers in what way?
I do not need reminding as to who has paid the price for America’s “success”, and it hasn’t just been Native Americans who have paid, and who are owed for that payment.
Cindy Sheehan is not the enemy, and I am ashamed to see her feeling forced to grovel in response to this outburst.
By directly attacking the myth of American moral superiority.
Of course, since you’d apparently rather wrap yourself in a protective shroud of ignorance… By all means. Go back to the Orange Happy Place, and ignore the issues and concerns of all those impractical “radical minorities”.
Just don’t be surprised when they don’t give a shit about your issues.
dwell on injustice for seven hundred years?
nah, just until the injustices are rectified… which they have not been… just go visit a reservation.
I find it so hilarious that American’s are constantly looking forward and never examining history, so of course they are doomed to repeat history over and over again and never learning a damn thing… hence Iraq as the new Vietnam.. and that was only 30 years! Hilarious. Unless you’re Iraqi of course.
Canada has a sorry history vis a vis Native people as well, but we keep trying to right the wrongs. As recently as yesterday our PM sat down with tribal leaders to discuss how we as a country can continue to right the wrongs perpetrated against them by our ancestors… not my ancestors since they came over shortly before the first WW and after the second, but hey, you don’t hear me whining that the Native people should just get over it and get with the program.
And in terms of Cindy “groveling”… is that was she was doing or was she apologizing for being insensitive? Guess if you’re famous it’s groveling now and you can never be wrong or insensitive to the issues of others? How would she feel if I wrote a diary on the anniversary of the Iraq war about how the US troops don’t deserve my respect or sympathy for dying as war mongers? Probably not so good eh. Probably would be quite insensitive on my part no? If I was called out for it and apologized would I be “groveling”? I highly doubt it. Not exactly a tit for tat analogy but you get my point.
Oh yeah, and “parsing blackness” is your analogy for someone, on THANKSGIVING for fucks sake, taking offense at a white person comparing the loss of one son, who was in a country for no reason other than to kill Iraqis, to the genocide of an entire people at the hands of that same (in relative terms) army.
Get some perspective dude.
you raise a point that became a second nasty exchange. The “my atrocity is worse than your atrocity” and “my peoples’ suffering is worse than your peoples’ suffering” and how do we compare this genocide to that genocide and who qualifies. In this exchange, I was called “dumbass” and “the dumbest person on DKOS”. Well, that’s actually quite an achievement!
Anyhow, the larger point is that not I, nor most Americans will ever know the horror and the suffering at the hands of the powerful throughout human history, it is still our shared human history. Victim and perpetrator. And just as torture and murder done in our names defile all of us today, the sum of brutality and inhumanity throughout history is part of who we all are. It is written onto all of us, it is our DNA.
I think that’s the whole point, there is no enemy, we are joined together forever, we are all flawed human beings. What you do unto the least of them, you do unto me.
First, there is no payment adequate to the bill that is owed.
Second, we are all a product of our collective past and so as not to repeat the past we definetily do need to be continually reminded of from where we come from. A lost cause so far but I’m an optimist.
I have handed flowers to Cindy Sheehan in that ditch in Crawford. I was in Washington for the march. You might have missed all 300 to 500 thousand of us on the news. I support what she is doing 1000 fold. But she is no diety and if she came across as groveling, well I suspect it was because she grasped how injurious her words were, however naively uttered. She must educate herself if she is willing to accept the mantle that is being given to her by her supporters. She should have known. I stood in front of that stage and watched the Lakota Delegation wrap that prayer blanket around her. It made me uneasy because it looked like spectacle. Not on the part of the Lakota, but on the part of the march organizers. That prayer blanket is sacred, and being chosen to be wrapped in one requires a level of understanding that apparently she does not yet possess. But she is learning and StarkRLR educated her a little more yesterday.
I believe Cindy Sheehan is a strong woman to say the least, and she will take what happened yesterday and incorporate it into who she is as a human being, and she will take this lesson and pass it on to others. For this she should be thankful for Stark’s relatively gentle lesson.
Thanks for pointing out the Lakota thing. I only caught a brief glimpse of that, but that fleeting glimpse was also in my mind when I thought to myself “How dare you, Cindy Sheehan?”
I had a similar response to the way the Navajo Code Talker Chester Nez performed a ceremony for the Red Sox and they won the world series, as a result? Who knows? (I think I do, but that’s beside the point).
Nez did the same thing for Kerry (and again, while I’d never publically admit this is why I believe Kerry won….better to pretend I believe in the statistics, for example, Steve Freeman’s article which, incidentally, I contributed to by editing it for him, in two separate rounds).
After the Sox won, their pitcher went out and endorsed Bush. I could have PUKED. It was so disrespectful, I thought. So unappreciative. Such a flagrant display of ingratitude.
There was definitely an element of that in my response to Cindy.
Ya had to bring up Curt Schilling?! Detestable man. I swear if I ever have to hear about his bloody sock again, I’ll puke. Projectile fashion.
In the early days after the selection I was a raving lunatic myself in my web wide search for those like Freeman who seemed to have at least circumstantial (prima facia) evidence of fraud. Thank you for your contribution to his efforts. It seems it’s been a long year, no?
Yeah curt Shilling the freaking bum. He runs out and campaigns for bush right after the series.
My point was never to make Cindy Sheehan grovel, I didn’t even ask for an a apology, nor did I ask her to delete the diary (her dramatic deletion was, i think, the act that triggered the shitstorm and the string of invectives against me personally: go fuck yourself you fucking asshole, dim-witted writer, bullshit artist, hoaxster, you just made our s/hero cindy cry, you made her delete her diary, etc.). I accepted her apology–but, as pointed out above (and as a number of more reasonable voices over there have done)–her apology was not even sincere–after she promised she wouldn’t use the term, she was out there using it in the exact same way in comments on other threads.
My intention with the diary was to make very clear the impact her use of that term in that context had for me personally (of course, my assumption was that it was entirely possible that there were other Native readers of that statement for whom it had the same impact, but who wouldn’t have bothered to point it out or to point it out in that way).
Again and again, members of the dominant culture run around this country “inadvertently” offending people of other colors and other cultures. It is pretty much constant. The fact that it is inadvertent doesn’t mitigate the damage it does–to us.
At the same time, hey, yeah, man, we’re liberals, we’re not racist, not in any way, we love black people, we love indians, we welcome them into our big tent, we are all on the same side. But we don’t love indians or blacks when they point out to us the ways in which our behaviors, our use of language, everything we pretty much take for granted, make “those people” uncomfortable.
Well, they sure did a good job of making me feel “uncomfortable” with their fucking assholes, fucking idiots, go fuck yourself and go fuck yourself again.
You tell me where, where in any one of my posts, I said anything inflammatory enough to anyone in there to merit that kind of assault.
“fucking asshole, dim-witted writer, bullshit artist, hoaxster…”
You left out “drunk”! (I found that the most insulting of them all, because the most dismissive.)
Of course nothing you wrote merited any of this.
“The fact that it is inadvertent doesn’t mitigate the damage it does–to us.”
Exactly. How many times did we hear “She obviously didn’t intend…” or “I didn’t intend…” That’s not the point, folks.
Look, I’m sure I’m guilty of similar things. I would hope that when they’re pointed out to me, my response will not be “I didn’t intend…” but “I didn’t realize….” That’s not exculpatory, but it does signal a desire to listen and learn, rather than defensiveness.
I didn’t catch the “drunk” one, but I suspect there weren’t too many people on that site yesterday who could have claimed NOT to have been DUI, to some degree or another.
perhaps this comment might clarify my own point. I have no quarrel with any of your points. The flame war was unfortunate. I haven’t abused or degraded you, I’m too old school to be insulting and rude. With all due respect to and acknowledgement of the history of genocide on this continent, I thought you over-reacted, but that’s just my opinion, fwiw.
And the question I posed still remains: beyond acknowledgement of the past, owning that history and attempting to pass on that history to our children, who, of course, are the ultimate benfeiciaries of all this rape and pillage; hoping that such awareness would prevent a reoccurrence of such behaviour, what would you have us do, if you ran the zoo?
You know, claude, I’ve been trying for weeks to get around to that post, it is what was supposed to have been included in the “attitudes of gratitude” diary.
That diary will be forthcoming, one of these days. Uh, this little mess has put something of a kink in the works on that.
The “what can we do” thing is really very complicated because there are so many, many abuses going on in so many different places and so many different ways.
I’m still just trying to wrap my head around how to bring as much as possible into as short and coherent a diary as possible.
Soon come. Soon come. 😉
A lot of Americans simply cannot comprehend that their country has a history of atrocities as long – or longer – than many of the regimes which they now purport to reform in the name of “freedom”. The American military doesn’t have a long and glorious history. It has a long history of atrocities, aggression, and destruction of innocents. Any claims of moral superiority or responsibility on the part of America do not even deserve debate. They deserve to be laughed at. Even as far back as the Monroe Doctrine, through the World’s Policeman, such claims have been nothing more than a cover for imperialism. A better argument against pre-emptive wars of aggression I’ve never seen.
You want to see cognitive dissonance in action? Mention this stuff in the hearing of most Americans, and watch them shrug off specific examples of their government’s brutality as “over and done with” because the happened “too long ago”.
The Canadian government has a pretty nasty one too, come to think of it. We did our best to exterminate the Métis, exiled the Acadians, and persecuted French settlers and too many aboriginal tribes to count.
Perhaps all these Christians need to start listening to that Christ person: “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.”
Of course, I have no clue how to start to atone for these mistakes. Paying reparations doesn’t seem to start to cover it, and there’s not much you can do to help a culture or people that has been intentionally wiped out by genocide.
But there are two things most of us beneficiaries of the genocides probably need to do more than we have, and that many of us — as witnessed by the orange roof fracas — need to do a whole lot more. (I count myself among “most of us.”)
One is to acknowledge — in a deeper way than “Yeah, yeah, I know that terrible things were done to those people” — the past and present realities and our implicatedness in them.
Another is, to borrow a tip from scribe’s “Big Sister”, to listen.
The dKos controversy showed just how ferociously many of us resist doing either of those, and they are just the beginning of an adequate response to the concerns Stark has (and others here have) expressed so well.
Only after this can the question, “So what do I do now?” really arise. It needs to become, in some sense, a personal problem, demanding a personal response. (By “personal” I do not mean to exclude “collective.” I mean seeing it in a first-person way — singular or plural — as distinct from a third-person way — by which one fails to take it on oneself as a problem at all. Although it always helps to start with the first-person singular…)
Only I would forget about “atonement”. It’s the fantasy of being able to erase past misdeeds. That doesn’t mean we should just, er, “move on.” Past misdeeds — even those that are entirely past, if any are — may still require a response, even as one can never be “cleansed” of them.
That, at least, is what I take away from Stark’s diary and the many other enlightening diaries and comments on these topics that have been posted here over time.
I wasn’t using atonement in the sense of erasing past misdeeds. I was using it in the sense of “helping these people because it’s the right thing to do“.
Understood. The word just makes me nervous, because of all the connotations it has (“making up for” something, “paying off” and thus cancelling out a moral debt, etc.) that pull it surreptitiously in the direction of “erasure.” Not suggesting you meant it in that sense, even subconsciously.
I myself prefer the question “What am I/are we to do (to respond to the fact of our own implicatedness)?” to the question “How am I/are we to atone?” I understand the former to have been the question you were posing.
Maybe I’m just too hung up on the (to me) detestable, though understandably seductive, doctrine of the forgiveness of sins.
Properly speaking, even forgiveness doesn’t undo the wrong. Unfortunately, the English language doesn’t seem to words to express the concept in my head right now. It’s not “compensation” – that implies “paying off”. It’s not “moving on”, though that’s part of it, because the wrong is acknowledged as something real that needs to be dealt with.
Basically, the idea is that we did wrong to these people, so we have an obligation to do right to them, even above and beyond any obligation to do so because of their current status. However, fulfilling this obligation does not erase or mitigate the wrong, or even remove any right on their part to be pissed off.
“Apology” might be the best word for it, but an apology that involves actions instead of just words.
This is the best description I’ve heard yet as a way forward.
Interesting that this discussion is coming out here. It’s one of the issues I’d been hoping to address in the diary that never was.
Here is a Democracy Now interview on the subject of reparations
WInona LaDuke’s most recent publication, which I am only starting to read right now, is called “Recovering the Sacred” and I’m suspecting there will be a lot of insights into this whole dynamic.
To me, the deal with “forgiveness” or “atonement” or whatever you want to call it, is directly related to the subject of “recovery”, of “healing”– and I assume that in any instance such as this–BOTH parties are in need of healing.
One of my biggest concerns with the whole “dynamic of denial” in the case of this country’s dealing with its past (and the ongoing abuses of Native Americans) is that this denial stands in the way of healing, on BOTH sides.
The wound cannot be healed unless it is first acknowledged.
I think a lot of Native people have finally resigned themselves to the fact that the “perpetrator” culture has no interest in healing itself and certainly no interest in helping the “victims” heal, so a lot of us are on the path of “unilateral” healing.
What LaDuke’s book is apparently about (I’ve only read the first few pages), is how the dominant culture, by restricting access to sacred SITES which we absolutely need to have access to in order to HEAL, is also preventing us from going down the path of healing without them.
Exactly…and there’s no right word for it. (I’ve struggled on many occasions to find one.)
Good thing we have sentences! Yours will do nicely.
Forgiveness can’t undo the wrong, but nothing really can.
I like forgiveness because it’s full circle, it recognizes both sides of the wrong, and each side can take responsibility for the only portion they can change.
Compensation balances the harm, but cannot make the wrong a right. We need both, how about “forgivensation”?
and this is the first that I have read your diary here. I’m sure that Cindy had no problem redoing her diary. She is a sensitive person……sensitive to her pain and also the pain of others. She is generous and giving, without pretension. I believe that she is the last person wanting to be placed on a pedestal because the truth about Casey is lost in some crazy kind of worship then, and for her this is all about how and why she lost Casey. If people at Kos freaked out about your diary that is really really sad. Cindy Sheehan obviously doesn’t need other people to speak for her or “stick up for her”, at one point she was about the only American willing to fully risk standing up for herself while the rest of us bitched and moaned and whined and desired to have somebody fix it all for us.
Unfortunately, until yesterday, I thought the same thing about Cindy. Remember, I am one who has regularly attended vigils on her behalf, and made some well, fairly substantial financial contributions to her cause (about a fourth of what I sent to Katrina relief, I guess.)
But the fact that she didn’t come out there and say, lookit people, the reason I apologized to Stark and the reason I deleted my diary was that I was sorry for having offended her (and/or anyone else), now, I do not condone this behavior: I do not approve of you telling any human being to go fuck herself, to call anyone a fucking asshole, a fucking idiot, a dim-witted writer (as writers go, folks, sorry, I’ll test my mettle against ANYONE writing in the big orange!), a bullshit artist, and on and on. I, Cindy Sheehan, do NOT approve of the gangbang you all are engaged in here.
Instead, Cindy more or less joined in the clusterfuck. She went out and continued to use the term “trail of tears” in her posts. She wasn’t sincere about being sorry and she wasn’t sincere about learning anything from me.
So in many ways, the tragedy of the whole thing is that it’s kind of shattered the illusions I too had about Cindy Sheehan. She’s not as sincere as I’d taken her to be.
At least now I know.
Here is the link to the CS comments. Please pluck from it where she continued to use “trail of tears” in a hurtful manner. I just am not going to search thru.
You repeatedly make the charge but leave it to others to search.
I am only bothering to post now over this near three day wonder, as your post here is transiting to ugly, in and of itself. Now she is accused of joining the “clusterfuck”.
I am amazed that people are always shocked at what a reactionary, emotional and non rational place Daily Kos is. LOL OVer and over people are “shocked”.
Never take a train to Rick’s in Casablanca.
Sorry, but I simply cannot handle reading anything Cindy Sheehan has written.
I have read all of her stuff–everything she’s written pretty much–over the past year or so.
Someone upthread pointed out where she used the term “trail of tears” after she’d said to me that she would NEVER use it again.
(In several of the thousands upon thousands of posts on the subject over there, the same thing was pointed out by different posters).
To me, that’s “evidence” enough to confirm that her apology was not sincere.
But forget the apology: I didn’t even ask for one, so it really doesn’t matter.
The bigger point, to me–and this is where Cindy Sheehan’s integrity has diminished in MY eyes– once the clusterfuck was in full swing, she alone had the power to stop it dead in its tracks. She didn’t. In that sense, i consider her “complicit”.
I know for a fact–100%–if the situation had been reversed and people had begun going after her like junkyard dogs, I’d have gone in there and said: Knock it off, don’t you dare do this in my name.
But it’s no biggie, really, you know, it’s not like I now have some sort of personal vendetta against her. It’s just that I no longer have any interest in reading anything she writes and I certainly will not be motivated to support her in the future, as I have always done in the past.
That’s all. What’s one little measly supporter less? In the greater scheme of things, nothing.
Sorry, but I simply cannot handle reading anything Cindy Sheehan has written.
I am sorry, you blew what little credibility I might have assigned to you (I have not read you but for the past few days).
You won’t read CS’s more recent comments, but you will comment on/repeat what another says about her posts, citing a comment but also not providing a link? And you make it a crux for continuing the rolling aspect of all of this?
And you extended, fully wilfully – first in comment then in diary form, the mess to this site?
Thin ice, by now.
She apologised over and over, none were good enough for you. You have met her apparently but she is not pure enough for you. Clue, few people are pure. Few will fulfill our desires. NOt even Martin. Not even in full martyrdom.
You would be wise to close this chapter. It really is another Dkos mess.
Hey, am I obligated to read everything anyone ever writes?
I’ve lost interest in the girl–what is wrong with that? Is it a crime or an injustice to lose interest in a writer, in a public figure, in any human being really?
I don’t read Laura Ingels Wilder anymore, either, tho at one time she was of great interest to me.
I accepted Cindy’s apology when she issued it. I did so publically (and was troll-rated lavishly for so doing).
At this point, that is beside the point.
You know, it’s a wild, wide world out there — we look out at it, choose the things that are of interest or not and in making those choices (whether about individual people or movements or websites or whatever), we are making judgments based on what we think is right, or wrong, or noble, courageous, whatever.
I know for a fact that if I see someone getting the shit kicked out of them unjustly and I am in a position to do anything about it: I will. I know that about me.
So that’s kind of a standard I set, too, in judging other peope’s behavior and in deciding which of the many many millions of words there are in the world to choose from…which of the many noble, brave, brilliant, wonderful people there are out there who interest me or do not interest me.
I just picked up the book “recovering the sacred” by Winona LaDuke, and frankly, that looks more interesting to me right now than anything by Cindy Sheehan, the author.
I doubt that I’ll ever read anything else Cindy Sheehan has written, and that’s Ok, isn’t it?
I mean, at this point, I’m fairly certain I’ve read a greater portion of her “collected works” than she has of mine, so you know, I probably have a much better overall view of what she’s about than she has of what I’m about–as a writer I mean.
PS, marisacat, I was “invited” to bring this “mess” to this site by SusanHu.
And I think I stated in the booman version of the diary that it wasn’t the “mess” I was bringing to this site, but a discussion of the whole can of worms (i.e., the personal and political issues) SURROUNDING the mess.
I went to Crawford and spent four days with Cindy at the beginning of the first protest, when they said they were going to arrest her that Thursday I arrived the Wednesday before. Please understand that her post on Blessings was something that she wrote and sent out to the different sites that other anti Iraq War protesters visit. I am sure that she heard that her posting has caused someone pain and it was changed, when I was in Crawford though she would post to sites every other day at the most and usually in the early morning hours when she had time alone. After that as the Crawford protest grew, her time is not her own. If she is staying the night at Camp Casey I don’t think there is easy internet access out there. An extremely wonderful kind woman purchased wireless access for Peace House, and that was where Cindy would post from usually also taking a shower and finding a newspaper to read and then back out to Camp Casey for another two or three days. She doesn’t sit at a keyboard like we do. I am sorry you feel slighted by her right now.
I don’t feel so much sleighted by Cindy right now. I feel like I’ve been gangraped by a bunch of so-called “liberals”.
As far as Cindy is concerned, it’s just that the respect I had for her is not what it was before yesterday.
She was posting in the middle of the shitstorm, so she WAS online at the time, and all it would have taken was one post, one sentence, three words in fact: KNOCK IT OFF. Maybe seven all total: NOT IN MY NAME.
So these are really two distinct issues.
I cannot repeat enough that I have no personal vendetta, but that the incident has definitely CHANGED my view of Cindy Sheehan and I will no longer go out of my way to support her as I have in the past.
It’s not a big deal really. Not the Cindy part. The clusterfuck part, well, that is. And I’m sure I’ll get over it–but that doesn’t change the implications. The fact that it happens all the time not only in that community, but in many, many liberal communities–on and off line–is and shall forever remain extremely alarming to me BECAUSE I don’t see how we can move forward as long as this dynamic prevails in these communities.
It’s a problem. One that weighs very heavily on my heart and mind.
you are coming from. I can’t speak for Kos though and who enjoys hanging out over there or why. We have worked hard to build the net society here at Booman that we desire to build for ourselves and all America…Respect Diversity and Diversity in Respect. Cindy just isn’t the kind of person to tell anybody to “knock it off”. Everybody has certain personality traits…..and that is one of mine, but not Cindy’s. Her embrace of peace and peaceful tactics is why her voice rings out on the Iraq War issue. She really is a pacifist and had a hard time handling some of the personal attacks against her. Lots of prayer and meditation is what I saw her doing in Crawford while people “gang raped” her about her marriage failure and the disapproval her in-laws felt toward her. She hung in there though and became the definition of peace. Hang in there, do not be brought low by this “stuff”. You know your journey and you know what your special work is on this journey. Your work and journey are not for others to define…only you. Be the changes you desire, honor all as you do yourself, hold your head high and walk fearlessly where ever you may find yourself.
and look for any of your comments in <b?your diary</b> “How dare you Cindy Sheehan”, that say “KNOCK IT OFF. NOT IN MY NAME” in response to the attacks on Cindy?
Were they in her name? Or were they just general kos-type attacks on Cindy for being a peacemonger woman’s studies crowd single-issue lunatic?
Oh, it wouldn’t be a real knock down drag out without both, now would it? There were nasties on all sides. One front page poster who particularly dislikes Cindy weighed in just for the chance to kick Cindy in the teeth, another former front page poster bullied his way to stomp her while she was down.
Honestly, other than the chance to stand on someones moral high ground (Cindy or Starkraving’s) and piss on the peasants from that perch, I doubt that the topic held any interest for most of the bashers.
The odd, sad and unfortunate aspect is that both Cindy and Starkraving’s pain were used and manipulated for other purposes.
show me where Cindy was called a fucking asshole, told to fuck off, called a fucking idiot, blowhard, hoaxster, bullshit writer, etc.
The other point is: as is very apparent– my word is worth SHIT over there. No matter what I say, I will be troll-rated, berated and bullied into oblivion, so my saying anything on Cindy Sheehan’s behalf would be pointless. However,in case you missed it, once again, some quotes — statements that were lavishly troll-rated .
Man, I am one mean ol motherfucking bullying bitch, ain’t I? I’m an asshole and a bullshit writer who should go fuck herself because I am so mean. Mean. Mean. Mean. That’s really mean, abusive shit we got going on in these statements to Cindy Sheehan.
Same day, same topic, different diary I was called “asshole” “dumbass” and “the dumbest person on DKos”. I know the pack mentality, I’ve been hunted by those dogs too.
Alls I’m sayin’ is that when the pack turned on Cindy, you did not do what you wish she would have done for you. You can’t change her, you can change you. And that brings us back to the central point:
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
We are our brothers keeper, all of us.
(This was my post that led to my “dumbest person on DKos” btw.)
I’m curious.
If you want everyone who has criticism for you to post over there, meaning dKos, does that mean your ego needs some assauging here?
it’s not my ego, dear, it’s my heart.
My ego can take constructive criticism–I do not appreciate being subjected to a public gangbang and clusterfuck.
And yes, it has had an impact. I am hurt by it. Because it wasn’t fair.
If I had gone in there and said, listen you fucking white bitch Cindy Sheehan you are a fucking asshole and a fucking idiot for using that term.
Ok, then let the gangbang begin.
That’s not what I did.
You know, a friend of mine was gangbanged as a teenager by a stepdad and friends and from what she described, your little flame war is a mosquito bite. From what I can tell, you wanted to get noticed and you did. How you think this helps Native American issues or progressives, I don’t know, and frankly, I couldn’t care less.
Kudos for your honesty.
Now if we could just get the rest of the “indifferent majority” to admit that they don’t give a fuck about anyone who doesn’t fit in their big tent, well….maybe the rest of us could start coming up with some better strategies for survival.
be a bit of an irony alert here.
Using the word ‘gangbang’ was unintentionally offesive to someone.
Can we ever get to the point where language police take the time to assess the intent of the speaker before they jump down their throats?
I haven’t read the comments over there or even this whole thread. I’m not taking a position on what was said. I’m just pointing out that you’ve just been caught at your own game. Where is the acknowledgment that your language was offensive?
My story is true, but the irony was also intended. Technically, it was gang rape. Stark uses the term “gangbang” but the meaning is clearly gang rape. My point is clear, thank you BooMan for the acknowledgement.
Booman,
There is a difference, I think, and while I might be persuaded to concede that using the term “gangbang” metaphorically is at least borderline and perhaps even over the line, the difference is that “trail of tears” refers to a specific and unique historical event, whereas a “gangbang” refers to a specific crime that is committed on a daily (hourly?) basis.
However, and this is the more important point in my view, by placing the term in “scare quotes,” I attempted to indicate that my usage is indeed metaphorical, not literal. Call it lame if you will, but the acknowledgment is in the scare quotes. It demonstrates my awareness of the fact that I am taking what may be considered “dangerous” liberties.
If this term is to be used, it might have been more correct to spell it out and speak in terms of a “metaphorical gangbang.” Similarly, if the term “trail of tears” were qualified by explicitly pointing to its METAPHORICAL use–either through the use of scare quotes or the qualifier “metaphorical”– I wouldn’t find it offensive. That is, if I were to read “a metaphorical trail of tears,” I probably would not take offense because that qualifier would signal to me as reader that the writer is aware of the liberties s/he is taking with language in the attempt to make his/her point.
One of the things that became apparent in the melee was in fact that there were many–even Cindy herself–who really had no idea where the term “trail of tears” comes from. The same cannot be said of “gangbang”–we all know what a literal gangbang is, and, as I said, putting it in “scare quotes” as I did was an attempt to signal to my readers that I am using the term metaphorically.
I also use the term “holocaust” with re the genocide against Native Americans. But that is partially because I agree with Jewish scholars’ critique of the term “holocaust” (burnt sacrifice) with re the Nazi genocide, which I personally prefer (usually at least) to describe as the “shoah” or “the catastrophe” or what Paul Celan described as “that which happened”.
Holocaust, as I understand it, implies a “sacrifice to God”–and that wasn’t where the Nazis were coming from in their extermination of the Jews. It is, imo, where the white unsettlers were coming from in their “sacrifice” of American Indians in the quest to form “one nation under God”–kill the Savage and save the Man and all that, you know?
(As I’m sure everyone here is aware, there is an entire body of scholarship dealing with the distinctions between these terms, that is, between Holocaust/Shoah/Catastrophe, etc.; and there is an entire field of research dedicated to the subject of “comparative genocide”; I have also published on these subjects in numerous scholarly journals. Not without controversy, I might add. But that’s not surprising is it? 😉
I have no position on your Cindy Sheehan brouhaha because I haven’t taken the time to educate myself on the details.
I will say this (and it is not a policy here, just my personal opinion):
As is well known, I have been a critic of framing. And I am a critic of endeavors like trying to choose the best word to describe the Holocaust, and I am critic of people that get upset over such things.
That’s just me. I don’t like political correctness and I tend to blame the person who gets offended rather than the person who has caused offense. It probably goes back to my study of Buddhism, but that’s how I see it.
When it comes to Native Americans, there are a lot of hot button issues (like sports mascots, for one example) where people feel quite strongly. I respect the fact that people have real pain, and real grievances about such things. Yet, it is my personal opinion that:
To take offense is at unintended behavior is a bothersome trait…to me.
Hmm.
We’ll just have to disagree, Booman: I’m a translator and editor by profession; it’s my job to pick apart language in an excruciatingly hair-splitting and painstaking way.
But with many of these issues, what is involved here is neither “nitpicking” nor engaging in “pc-bullshit” (I hate pc-bullshit, really, I do). What is involved here (to cite the subtitle of the book by Winona LaDuke which I am going to finally get around to reading in earnest just as soon as I finish this post) is “the power of naming and claiming.”
And the power of naming is one that has occupied and pre-occupied the minds of men and women the world over for MILLENIA, so I guess I can’t just dismiss it. It fascinates me in fact. Sorry.
Booman,
It may be an unintended behavior but isn’t it also a behavior that was caused by ignorance or unintended naivete to be kinder? In my opinion Cindy Sheehan has a responsibility whether she wants it or not to educate herself a bit more. Certainly she had to hear or read the reference to the Trail of Tears along the way somewhere in her life, otherwise it would’nt have been available to her vocabulary. I don’t know of any other reference to any other Trail of Tears. I think she should have known before she spoke. I understand the offensiveness of how she used it. If she is open to recieving accolades and endorsements from Native peoples then she should take the responsibility of knowing them and knowing of or about them and their history. I don’t think it’s too much to ask of her.
As to Stark using the term Gangbang, on this I completely agree with you. So now maybe we’ll see a diary by someone else who is hurt over the insensitive use of that term.
into this is dangerous for me because I haven’t even read Cindy’s post, let alone Stark’s response to it.
I think there is a difference between expecting her to understand (in advance) the possible offense her words might cause, and how she should react once she realized she has caused an offense.
Your standard is pretty high, in my opinion. I mean, I don’t know which particular event ‘trail of tears’ refers to. I also don’t use the term. But I don’t think it is some great failing of mine that I can’t put an exact event together with the term.
On the other hand, once you discover that you have caused an offense there are various ways of responding to it. I don’t know how she responded so I have no opinion on that. It appears many other people responded quite poorly to it.
As for the use of gangbang, I could care less. My only point is that Stark didn’t respond to the person that posted about its offensiveness, which is what I thought the whole issue was about. Seemed hypocritical to me, even though I don’t think Stark should feel the need to apologize for using the term.
For my money, no one can offend you unless you allow them to. This is never more true than when no offense was intended.
you were right, Booman, and I have responded, so thanks for calling me out on it.
Whether my explanation suffices remains to be seen.
I’d be more than open to a) adding a footnote explaining my metaphorical usage and the attempt to signal that awareness by using “scare quotes” or b) eliminating the term altogether and using something like “hate fest” or “collective frenzy of verbal abuse” whatever.
There is only one event linked to the T of T and Cindy having heard it somewhere had to have some sense of it’s meaning. Using the term was no great personal failing on her part but a failure of sensitivity. This is important and some things cannot be ignored or not felt as a matter of choice.
Well, I followed the Wiki link so I could educate myself about the Trail of Tears. Interestingly, it refers to a specific event affecting the Cherokees, even though there is some speculation that it originated earlier with a different tribe. And it has been used for other relocations, as well as synonym for the tragic fate of all Native Americans.
To me, I associated it with this latter sense. Not as something specific, but as shorthand for the whole experience of Native Americans.
I suppose the Bataan Death March has some similarities for a certain generation of Americans.
I don’t know.
As for some things that cannot be ignored as a matter of choice, I submit that you can learn to ignore them through training and effort. Some things should not be ignored. Some things should be faced down and repudiated in the strongest terms. Some things should be offensive. But you can learn not to take offense.
a. Attempt to overcome crippling sentiments such as taking offense at the remarks of others.
Not that it necessarily has any immediate bearing on this situation in particular, but I’m not a stranger to rape myself. I was raped by a stranger who broke into my home when I was in my twenties. It was one of the “defining” moments of my life.
And my own experience with gangrape in particular is this: my sister was gangraped by 4 black men when she was 13 yrs old. My sister basically disowned me or simply couldn’t handle the fact that I have such close ties to the black community (my partner is black and most of my friends, for the past 30 years or so have always been black).
My sister and I have had no contact whatsoever for the past 25 yrs or so, and this is largely because she cannot stand black people as a result of the fact that her rapists happened to have been black. Yeah. lousy attitude on her part, but what can I do. Nada.
As I explained in my comment to Booman, my use of the term “gangbang”–at least at the first instance of its appearance–was qualified by placing it in scare quotes to indicate my awareness of the difference between a literal gangbang and a metaphorical one.
Your experiences with rape make your using the term (scare quotes or not) more aggregious, IMO. Although now that I think about it, your use of the word “gangbang” seems more on target. A gangbang implies consent from all parties whereas a gang rape can have one or more unwilling participants. By your own admission you titled the reply post provocatively, because a “nice” post would have fallen off the list before anyone had a chance to read it. If you didn’t expect a pie fight, you’re hopelessly naive; if you did, then you invited the dKos community to your gangbang. But you meant gang rape, and we both know it.
Finally, how can you expect anyone else to accept your differentiation between metaphorical and literal translation of the term “gangbang” when your entire rant is based on Sheehan’s purportedly unintentional mingling of the literal and metaphorical “trail of tears?”
Full disclosure: I believe Cindy should stand down, or get help with PR, she makes too many mistakes that are tagged on Democrats. Additionally, pie fights annoy the shit out of me, otherwise I wouldn’t have butted in. This crap damages us all; but, ironically, your cause in particular.
actually, you should know enough by now about my relationship to language to know that if I had MEANT gangrape, that’s what I would have used. The use of “gangbang” was conscious (and also based on what I know about the “rape” of human individuals, the rape of the planet, the rape of language–if you want to know the truth, at this point I would describe this whole society as a “rapist” society), and again, if the scare quotes don’t do it for you–I’m sorry, in technical terms, scare quotes do signal irony and/or metaphorical use.
The fact is, and we all know it, the same awareness was not present in Cindy Sheehan’s use of the term ‘trail of tears.’
Maybe it was naive to not think about the shitstorm that was likely to ensue, but I honestly didn’t. Ooops. (it was also very late when I posted it, something like 1 AM, yaknow?)
I expected that post to be ignored just like every other one I’ve made over there. Again, surprise, surprise.
well, damn, Iamcoyote, I’m going to have to come in here and correct myself.
My philosophy with language: when in doubt, look it up.
“gang-bang”, according to Eric Partridge, Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English: One girl serving many males in succession; gang-bang occurs in “New Society,” 2 July 1963;
second meaning: “depraved sexual orgy between several pairs, or a violent multi-rape of one female; also in a humourous ironic sense of, say, a garden party or a vicarage fete”
According to Spears, Dictionary of Slang and Euphemism, gang-bang, 1. a real or fantasized sexual activity where one person is coited by a group of males serially 2. an activity similar to sense 1 where promiscuous copulation takes place in a group.
Looks to me, then, as if the term “gang-bang” may, by definition, also be applied in a metaphorical or ironic sense, so I wouldn’t have even needed the scare quotes as qualifiers.
My bad. All this time I was thinking your moniker was ironic.
Oh, and indeed it is.
But it also helps to know that I am bi-lingual (German/English) and, since I have what most people agree is about as close to native proficiency in German as it comes, bi-lingualism is definitely an element of linguistic play in just about everything I say or do.
Stark, in the German language, means “strong.”
I am also a compulsive dictionary reader, and particularly enjoy getting at the root of things–hence radical=root.
Now, as far as the raving is concerned. Haven’t figured that one out quite yet.
With a name like “i am coyote,” I’d have half expected you to be able to take some things less seriously than you do, too. Must say.
You poor, sad, silly thing. You think I drew my name out of a hat? I would take credit, but you done yourself in, babe.
Coyote. Did you notice that I quit using the term?
(It’s damn hard, btw, because “gangbang” really feels like the most appropriate one, but hey…. )
From Moore’s article:
This was also the head of the brave and honorable King Philip. Before his head adorned that post for 24 years he nearly drove the English back into the sea. I read a book called “King Philip’s War.” He had the Puritans shaking in their shoes. Someone in his family was murdered by the English I believe. He united several tribes in resistance. The Mohicans of NY had a stake in his demise as they sided with the British. They dealt Philip a serious defeat that began his downfall. The guy was amazing, he stood up and fought the good fight.
Make that the Iroqois I think the Mohicans were fiction. 🙂
Hi, Starkravinglunaticradical.
I read your dKos diary, as well as Cindy’s initial one. I didn’t comment in either, and I think I recommended both.
OK, I’ll be more accurate – I didn’t read either diary completely. It was more like a deep scan/quick read. I have no excuse for that, except maybe that I just don’t always give deep diaries the complete time that they need and deserve.
I see key phrases and words and tone, then make up my mind if I agree or not.
As a result, I didn’t catch Cindy’s use of the expression, “Trail of Tears.” I did clearly get your message that it’s a powerful, painful, and very loaded phrase with specific connotations; as well as a sense of why that is so.
In the same vein, I did not read all of the comments in your diary, supportive and not.
This process, of understanding each other and our perspectives; of expressing ourselves honestly; of apologizing and rectifying, or trying to; is all very difficult and messy work – maybe even the hardest and messiest we’ll do.
And it’s not often satisfying.
I will always hope, though, that the difficulty and messiness are never used as an excuse to stop trying.
Thanks, RubDMC = Jerry
Btw, I’ve been meaning to ask…
How was the Wonderbread anyway?
It was great! Especially that crispy wrapper. Thanks for asking.
Literally. As Boston Joe on here likes to call himself an “accidental activist, ” consider that Miss Cindy is the accidental icon of a very small anti-crusade movement operating in an extremely hostile environment.
I think she is sincere, but I do not think that she is very sophisticated. She was propelled into the position she is now because her son was killed in the crusade, which she opposed. It is very possible that she did not know until yesterday exactly what “Trail of Tears” meant.
It is likely that even today, when she pulls a twenty dollar bill out of her wallet to pay for a sandwich, that she does not realize that every time an indigenous person looks at such a bill, he or she sees evidence that even today, the US chooses to honor the author of the Trail of Tears.
She is no doubt distressed that she made such a faux pas, and she will no doubt make more of them.
Those with more knowledge of her will, I am sure, correct me if I am wrong, but the sense of her that I get is that she is a very ordinary, very average lady, who has been thrust by the greed of warlords and her own conscience into a spotlight that she would not have chosen, and could not possibly have been prepared.
She looks, and sounds, like millions of moms of the US mainstream demographic, which in some ways is an advantage, it is impossible for many of her sisters to see her and not see themselves, but in a culture where icons and spokespeople are burdened with sometimes unrealistic expectations, it is also a disadvantage.
I haven’t seen the dkos diary but sometimes rational discussion is impossible over there. The point gets lost and the diarist becomes the subject of anger. I had that situation once with a diary where I made a mild observation about Howard Dean. It got a little ugly. Apparently your statements regarding Ms.Sheehan hit a nerve for some and produced the same result. I don’t find your comments troubling in any way but I do suspect that Ms.Sheehan used the term without thinking and did not to intend to offend.
Tried to go to “that other place” to see the posts, and there are none to be found. Wondering if I have been band or did they delete them??
Yep, it looks like they’ve deleted the diary. Damn, I was hoping to keep a public record of that. I knew I should have made a copy somehow. Anyone know how to retrieve it?
talk about re-writing history eh. I actually hadn’t gone back to the original diary since yesterday. Just got tired of getting bashed.
So now there is no public record of the debacle and they can really start getting inventive and interpretive with my words:
Did you catch this little exchange? I couldn’t believe it:
No I did not. I just don’t get that place any more. WTF? better yet let me splell it out:WHAT THE FUCK?? that is a place where censorship is not only approved but also encouraged.
From now on I will go there just to be trolled rated. They can ban me, or what ever. Lost respect for all of them
To see if there is anything you can do to get a copy I would contact Plutonium Page, since she seemed very cool about it.
By the way, I wrote a long comment for yu here, but this damm computer froze and had to restart it so lost everything.I will re-write it tomorrow.
Just go in and eradicate an unpopular person and their opinions.
And as far as a public record of their own despicable behavior: well isn’t it akin to taking the blue dress to the dry cleaners? lol.
At this point, I don’t know that it’s worth pursuing an attempt to get a public record.
I know at last count there were almost 600 comments in there, and only 20 at the most were mine.
So they just obliterated everything anyone in those comments had to say–and I actually suspect that the reason for so doing was not so much what I had said, but to erase the public record of the way they subjected me (and from what I hear also cindy sheehan) to abuse. I didn’t follow the thread very closely after the first few “fuck off” you fucking asshole” comments, but of course they were making those comments about me no matter where I went. Apparently (see comments up thread here) there was also a lot of Cindy bashing going on. I didn’t catch any of that. But if it was as bad as what they were doing to me, hell, I don’t blame them for removing it!
But the whole fiasco must have just turned into such an embarrassment for them–based on their collective bad behavior–that they had to remove it from the record. Sure wouldn’t dKos to become a candidate for Olbermann’s Oddball or for Jon Stewart or the Colbert report or anything now would we?
I deleted all my diaries there, and I am begging to be banned. go to Armando’s diary and watch waht I’m doing/ (BTW i did ask nicely!)
This is not Lol Cruz. I believed you were more thoughtful than this. What you are doing over there serves no purpose other than to bring discredit down on this place. Please stop.
OOPs. Hmm. I thought you were in on it, Supersoling.
If it does indeed bring bad blood over here, that I don’t think is good either (and not at all fair to BooMan because ultimately its HIS name) but if Cruz is doing it for his own sake, that’s another thing.
Anyway, I thought it was pretty funny.
Did you notice, Cruz, tho, I tried to make it harder on you by rating you up, and somehow, hmmm….I suddenly noticed, I had my TU status back, so I troll-rated you just for good measure.
You do know that I have picked up a cyberstalker over there who is culling my comments from here and posting them over there….
I think I’m gonna pull outta that one tho. I THOUGHT I’d finally gotten to get him/her to GIVE up….but nooooooo….man, what is it with some people?
Life is too short for that. I have better things to do with my time but cruz is a person that I have a high degree of respect for and I don’t think what he’s doing over there is funny at all. It serves zero purpose. They Don’t Care.
by asking nicely. go and look at my initial request. This place has nothing to do with it. Stark has nothing to do with it either.
If I didn’t do anything about it I could not look at myself in the mirror no longer. I lived many years with censorship, and I’ll be dammed if I allow it to happen and not do anything about it.
And you’ve known me for a short while here. I am nice and gentle, but I can also be a tough son of a gun.
OK, that’s another issue.
(I promise, I won’t even look, and if I do, I won’t, I repeat, I swear on my mother’s grave, I will NOT laugh. 😉
on another note Cruz, did I miss something? You say you lived for many years under censorship, where are you from?
Argentina. Survivor of a terrorist bombing, survivor of the death squads, Looked over my shoulder after death threats, and 4th generation genocide survivor. (I did include my mother’s Cherokee decent in it)
Like I said, tomorrow I will have to look at myself in the mirror, and if I did nothing I would not like what I saw.
and tomorrow I will take it with Kos
Holy shit, man. That’s heavy stuff.
Gotta let that sink in here for a while….
Carry on, bro (I presume?), carry on.
And do what you gotta do. If you need me to help or hinder, just let me know–I’ll stay out of it unless you ask otherwise.
And I’glad that you recouped your diary. It is a piece of art.
And I’m not done with the other place either. I will ask Kos and if no action is taken….I will continue until I get what I want.
Ok, look, BooMan is getting tired of it (see his newest diary).
For my part, here’s the deal:
The diary, with comments, has been recovered here thanks to Michael Doughney. My TU status has been restored.
I can live with that. There is no need to continue this battle on my account. I’m “over it.”
As for the stalker, well, it’s apparently one wacko and dKos certainly has no control over that, right?
I’m going to move on….especially since I really do want to get to that “action post” i.e., what can we DO to stop the ongoing abuse of NDNs in this country.
So, to everyone here: thanks for the moral support, thanks for the mojo, thanks for everything.
Thanks to BooMan, especially also for the Buddhist wisdom about not taking offense at everything.
Sorry I blew up the blog! 😉 It really, really was NOT my intent.
Shit, Cruz, wish you had an email posted somewhere here cause I’m trying to respect BooMan and Susan by seeking to “contain” this conflagration and keep it from spilling over here.
At any rate, i did want to tell you that you were the one who inspired me to go in and fight that shit.
Fuck it.
Can’t hurt to repeat a good quote here:
In the Indian community there has always been the acknowledgement that living cannot be postponed. Particularly among the Sioux Indians, anything that has an identity calls men and societies to it. “It is a good day to die,” Crazy Horse used to call as he rode out into battle. People accepted his challenge and followed him because he called into question their highest memories of themselves. If there is a sense, then, in which a person can have a vocation, it is to ride into one’s community with a challenge to its presuppositions, presuppositions which one cherishes and from which one’s identity is received.
If vocation is to exist in today’s world it must certainly involve a heady willingness to struggle for both long and short term goals and at times simply for the joy of getting one’s nose bloodied while blackening the other guy’s eye. I would conclude that vocation has nothing to do with jobs, divine callings, political platforms, or wisdom and knowledge of the world. It is the solitary acknowledgement that the question of man’s life and identity is to let the bastards know you’ve been there and that it is always a good day to die. We are therefore able to live. –Vine DeLoria, Jr., PhD
I love it when words can go straight through my soul.
It is a terrible thing to live with fear, and when you finally do, then you can start living a true life. Every day is a good time to die and to live.
Sorry if I took so long to catch up with these comments, but this darn computer is giving me problems and I am trying to fix it. Tomorrow I will be out probably for a while.
I will check for my e-mail on my info page and will reset it if it is missing.
By the way, I liked how you fought back 🙂
Heh. You were with me in spirit all the way! lol.
Checked out your diaries btw. The email addy is there now.
Btw, if, in your efforts to clear your family name, you ever need a German translator, don’t hesitate to let me know. Be happy to help out.
Ciao ciao….Daily Show’s back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I finally got my computer going!!
Finding out that stuff really placed me in the shoes of those who find out that their ancestors messed up real bad. Nasty feeling.
I am waiting for my father’s service history, and then I will write 2nd generation survivor. Then after that one I will write mine.
Finding out that my paternal grandfather is Jewish wont change this atheist. And, I want to use it to slam Kissinger. (Jew lived under nazi ocupation, son fought the Germans, says that it is ok to kill grandson 🙂
It makes for a pretty interseting story. Finally mom’s side.
Thank’s for the offer and I probably will take it .
Fascism certainly makes for interesting life histories, doesn’t it?
Ugh.
Titled “The People And It’s Repressors”, Osvaldo Bayer wrote about how people don’t give up, how they begin to build on their own initiative, about the spontaneity of the masses, but he begins describing an invitation he had from some of his students to go to school to “discuss some issues”. There he saw some Mapuches, ( must read!)who were showing some of their handcrafts and also a book: Indigenous Voices Of Patagonia. Written by a Danish journalist. She not only brings her impressions; she also has documents. And it reads: “With the arrival of the white men to our lands, begins the most violent process of disarticulation of the harmony of men with nature. Together with the pests and diseases came values and principles unknown to our people: greed; individualism; the accumulation of power and riches at the cost of the suffering of the many. By the hand of the sword they imposed unknown gods and languages that nothing had to do with the Cosmo vision of the original people.
With a Remington, the cross, and alcohol in their hands, thousands of Mapuches were massacred; they destroyed and set fire to our teepees. They took our women and children as trophies for the rich families; they set a price for the tits and ears of our brothers and sisters. Our people were condemned to go to the rocky mountain ranges while our territory was in the hand of the conquistador. Then, he describes how would it have been the meeting, which never took place. Then says: We understand that just like in nature, with diversity there is strength; in the union and respect of what is different lays the future, but not based on lies and amnesia.
Celebrating the 500 years of the Conquista, the Spanish government said that what drove the Spanish was their desire of “distance”. Yet, Eduardo Galeano, who counted Columbus’ documents points out that the word gold is in it 159 times while the word god only 35.It was the desire of gold and not god.
I was translating this article when my computer froze and lost it all. I was telling you that coincidently I did not celebrate “Happy Thanksgiving” and that after learning the real meaning of it I would never again celebrate it. If anything, I will mourn “Thanksgiving” from now on. These are hegemonic terms and we should get rid of them.
Now, I would like to know if the reaction you had with your diary was in part because you touched in a subject/ celebration that they are not will to touch, question or change?
And just like I “celebrate” the Day of the Americas (October 12th) by recognizing it as “Genocide Day”, I will now use a different definition for “Thanksgiving”.
“I would like to know if the reaction you had with your diary” I meant: “the reaction TO yoour diary”
Well since you do check, I still owe you that translation.