I got home tonight and discovered that Atrios and Armando had linked to my article about Daily Kos. I also discovered that Markos was under the impression I was pissed off at him and had no idea why. First, by way of disclosure. I know Atrios. I drank beers with him just last Tuesday. I’ve never met Armando but we have exchanged emails for a long time. I feel like I know him. I consider both of them my friends. They both know where I’m coming from. I don’t know Markos at all, and that may be why he doesn’t know where I’m coming from.
I am not pissed off at Markos. I am frustrated that every time something happens on Daily Kos that someone doesn’t like they take the issue over here to discuss it. People might expect me to enjoy this since it increases the traffic and profile of the site. But I don’t like it.
How would I feel if there was some site where I was routinely pilloried, and a friend of mine was the publisher? It wouldn’t feel good. It would be awkward. I might want my friend to stop publishing things that besmirched my reputation.
Daily Kos is a huge and influential blogsite. What goes on there is very important. It’s inevitable that major events there will be discussed. It’s inevitable that controversial statements by the front-pagers there will cause commentary, rebuttal, and ill-feelings. We all know the list:
Clark/Dean
The mercenaries
Ohio Fraud
Donna Brazile
Gannon/Guckert
The Pie Wars
The Hippies
The Conspiracists
My disillusionment was over voter fraud. It made me angry. It motivated me to create this site. Other members have come here for other reasons, often nursing some wounds. I’ve never banned anyone for discussing their grievances. I share some of them. What I have done is to point out that I am not really very happy with some of the more personal attacks. It makes me uncomfortable. It’s not what I want this site to be about, or be defined as. Yet, I don’t want to make a policy against criticizing Daily Kos. I really aim to allow as much free speech as possible, and try to control it through insisting on respectful discourse.
Armando acknowledeged that a lot of the critiques here have merit. But a lot of them are very harsh and some of them have very little merit. I wrote my diary to try to allow people to make their critiques so that maybe we could purge this division out of our system for a while. I frankly do not care whether Cindy Sheehan is put on a pedestal, or not, over at Daily Kos. What does that have to do with this site? It should have nothing to do with this site, and yet it spawned endless comments about how terrible Daily Kos is, and the crowd there is, and Markos is. You know what? That makes me uncomfortable. The Frog Pond is dedicated to electing democrats and exposing corruption and criminal activity. It’s about frog-marching the thieves out of the White House and Congress. That is what motivates me.
When Daily Kos turned the other cheek on the election it made me mad. I got over it by doing something about it. I didn’t write a bunch of stories about how betrayed I felt and try to drive a wedge between the sites. I started this site with some different rules that I thought would correct some of the things I didn’t like about Daily Kos.
In any case, I’m struggling to say that I am unhappy that this site has so often become an outlet for bashing Daily Kos at the same time that I am unwilling to really do anything other than bitch about it to prevent it from continuing.
I’m not mad at Markos, or at Daily Kos. I’m just frustrated.
It’s feedback vs backstabbing. Which may be why you are uncomfortable when you are forced to be a part of it, like someone sitting at lunch while another member of the table opens up on a coworker not at the table.
And it’s fruitless. I f it’s given over there, someone can at least learn form the feedback and even though they may react negatively at the first go, they may, in time, as we all often do, take it to heart. If it is offered over here, it comes to nothing. Doesn’t even make us feel good because of the guilt that comes along with the backstabbing.
Cool diary.
I’ll jump to the top of the thread to say it again:
You get from dKos (and from Booman’s, for that matter) what you put in it.
I put in wonky diaries, and I get wonky commentary back.
I sprinkle “4”s and recommends around, and that’s pretty much what I get back.
I am always polite with everybody, and everybody is polite with me.
I am always respectful of others’ opinions, and I think most are respectful of mine.
And it it the giant megaphone that everybody wants to have a shot at. So everybody tries to shout and to get attention. That’s the game. If you don’t like big bustling crowds, don’t go to dKos. But you can’t have the audience without having the people that make that audience. Don’t take everything personally, treat people like you expect to be treated, and only get involved in things that you actually want to be involved in.
People should know better
If you enter in a fight with (insert familiar FP or diary police name with abrasive ways), you know what to expect. I mean, if you are commenting in the kinds of diaries where these things take place, you must have been around dKos for a while…
So I have no sympathy to those that are hurt by insensitive comments when they are making the exact same kind of comments themselves. (name) is a solid adversary for these games, one could say…
If you think one is a bully, the best way to intereact with that bully is to be infailingly polite and provide arguments ONLY on substance, and never on form. This annoys the hell out of them, but they have no pretext to lash out at you. If they do, they are clearly in the wrong (and that will be noted, and rated, by others) – and you SHOULD NOT follow suit. There is no more scathing retort than a very polite and to the point one to insult and injurious stuff…
And if you don’t like these games – don’t play in them, for fuckssake.
And if you take these things too seriously, don’t bother.
Altogether, dKos is where everybody is, so you get every kind of behavior. You cannot avoid unprovoked insults, aggression or carelessness, but you sure as hell are responsible for how you respond to these, and how you interect with these people afterwards. If you get confrontational, don’t be surprised if confrontation continues. If you get prissy, don’t be surprised to get prissiness back. And if you know that some people are popular, do expect more than one person to react to what you say.
It’s the same here on Booman. Thankfully, Booman has enforced more strictly the rule “don’t be a prick”, thus the precedent has been set much more clearly than on dKos, but the advice holds true. Even if it’s not an explicit rule on dKos, it’s still a good rule.
You are responsible for what you write, and for how you react to what others write. You have a right to hold others to the same responsibility, but you don’t usually get people to be responsible by insulting them, taunting them or provoking them.
end of moralistic rant.
What do you think about the diary being removed? Do you think controversial or unpopular material should be taken down?
I think it was a stupid idea to delete it, whether it was the diarist or a front pager.
Lots of people wrote thoughtful stuff, and the record of those that wrote horrible stuff should stay. There was nothing (unless I missed it) that was so inflammatory or obviously hateful that it deserved the deletion of the full thread.
Did you happen to catch the mechanics of the deletion? I didn’t really get that in my reading of the record. At least I didn’t understand it.
The diarist can delete his/her diary at any time, and so can the people that have admin. rights – presumably all the front pagers and the IT staff.
Once done, it is irreversible.
Thanks my French friend. For the thoughts and the answers.
Hello BostonJoe.
First, thanks for the yellow feathers! (sent!)
I have stated repeatedly that I was not the one who deleted the diary. I have no reason to lie, and in fact, the people who were involved in conversations that led to the discovery of the deletion know damn well that I’m not lying (those conversations occured here) .
It is not what happened. Someone over there deleted it. And everyone who was in here the night it happened KNOWS that. What mattered to me was that there remain a public record of what actually went down over there: and it would not have been in my best interest to delete the diary.
Unfortunately, the fallout in my attempts to stop the flow of lies and “speculations” in this regard has been that I’ve had to send people OVER HERE to read the posts on that subject.
That has caused fallout and spill-over, and in my attempt to stop THAT, I have gone in there and deleted the rest of my diaries. But I didn’t delete the infamous trail of tears diary.
Needless to say, people out there suggesting that I would delete the diary in some hair-brained scheme to “divide the community” piss me off to no end. And they know that. God isn’t it great fun to work the bitch into a frenzy? Yo.
I saw the process while it was being deleted. I tried to post a comment (that means that the diary was still there), but the page would not open. I came to BT, and when I went back there, the diary was missing. So, first thing to dissappear were the comments, and then teh diary. I know that the diarist can delete the whole diary, BUT NOT THE COMMENTS, which can only bew trolled to oblivion.
I know Stark DID NOT delete that diary.
Oh god, Cruz, if someone wanted to make a federal case out of it, we could go back and check the time when you were posting, compare it to the time (when I was probably posting over here). Everyone who was involved in that conversation as it went down knows, and everyone with half an objective brain can follow the threads and put two and two together.
Blah, blah, blah. So someone at dKos deleted the diary and won’t fess up, the country’s still at war, GWB is still in office and where’s the good news? Tomorrow’s another day.
(The comments do, btw, disappear with the diary–I learned that this AM when I went in and deleted the rest of mine.)
Simple: check what time I asked you if you had deleted the comments, and subtract 30 seconds. 😮
8:02 Cruz discovers deleted diary
8:05 Stark checks to see if it’s gone; yep
Where was Stark while the diary was being deleted?
Well she was posting in the thread Radical Injuns and Liberal Cowboys
7:58
http://www.boomantribune.com/comments/2005/11/25/10175/187/22#22
8:02 http://www.boomantribune.com/comments/2005/11/25/10175/187/23#23
Hummmmmmm. Are you sure you don’t have a clone???
How about an extra computer and a couple extra hands to type at the same time at both computers???
Hummmmmmmm. 🙂
Jesus Christ, Jerome! What the hell did I do to prompt this? I was making what I thought was a simple comment about communications efficiency and psychology. How does your “moralistic rant” connect to that? And how is your “rant” any less a trashing, emotionally, however erudite, than those provided with fewer words of Saxon derivation?
Correct link to Armando’s post
This “New Armando” thing really cracks me up.
He calls himself “New Armando”? Count on Armando to deal with criticism by trying to rebrand himself. At least he is trying hard to be less of a jerk, even if it is in his own self-absorbed, superficial way.
At least he’s not calling himself “§” or something…
Or the kossack formerly known as Armando.
I really like the “kinder, gentler” Armando. I hated all the over-the-top flaming stuff. But the guy has always had serious thoughts to share. So I like the new wrapper, and the effort to change.
Old Armando, new Armando, he’s most effective when he uses his passion along with his intelligence. Both are abundant.
I doubt I will ever spend much time at dKos again, it is a bit too huge for me, but I do appreciate Armando making the effort to significantly tone down his more hostile comments. His approach helped set the tone for other abusive posters, and hopefully his effort to change that tone will make for a better community. If he wants to be a major player in the party (and he does have the ability to do it) then he needs to treat others with more respect than he has in the past, and it is nice to see he finally recognizes that. I have never questioned his intelligence or writing ability, though I continue to disagree with his approach to agenda-building (which to me is too similar to the say-anything-to-court-the-rubes approach that republicans use).
I see far more than just “bash dKos” here on BooTrib. We have Blksista and Duranta keeping us informed about what’s REALLY happening in New Orleans (and for those who complain that Katrina is “old news”, there are thousands of displaced citizens who wish that were the case), discussion of Downing Street Memos, Floridagal letting us know what Jeb! is up to, and of course the fun topics like the Froggy Bottom Cafe and other entertainments.
In your earlier diary, someone made a good point — when something happens Over There, inevitably we get refugees, and they bring their scars over here with them. Many of them need to talk out the horrors in order to begin the process of healing. How many of us have had a traumatic experience, and have had “friends” tell us to get over it already before we were ready? One thing I learned in the grief seminar I attended not long after my mom died is that grief takes as long as it takes…you can’t rush it. And in a sense, grief is a dream being shattered…whether it’s the dream that your parents are going to live forever or the dream that there is a progressive Utopia called Daily Kos (or Booman Tribune or any other site in the blogosphere).
Okay, I’m rambling here…probably time to go to bed…
thank you. I thank you.
Scene 7
To each his own and viva la differance and all that shit.
Brian (not wanting to be a messiah): “You are all individuals…”
Crowd (in unison): “We are all individuals…”
Monty Python’s “Life Of Brian”
Maybe we could all join in for a chorus of “Always Look on the Brighter Side of Life” (while nailed to our crosses).
Some things in life are bad
They can really make you mad
Other things just make you swear and curse.
When you’re chewing on life’s gristle
Don’t grumble, give a whistle
And this’ll help things turn out for the best…
And…always look on the bright side of life…
Always look on the light side of life…
If life seems jolly rotten
There’s something you’ve forgotten
And that’s to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you’re feeling in the dumps
Don’t be silly chumps
Just purse your lips and whistle – that’s the thing.
And…always look on the bright side of life…
Always look on the light side of life…
For life is quite absurd
And death’s the final word
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin – give the audience a grin
Enjoy it – it’s your last chance anyhow.
So always look on the bright side of death
Just before you draw your terminal breath
Life’s a piece of shit
When you look at it
Life’s a laugh and death’s a joke, it’s true.
You’ll see it’s all a show
Keep ’em laughing as you go
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.
And always look on the bright side of life…
Always look on the right side of life…
(Come on guys, cheer up!)
Always look on the bright side of life…
Always look on the bright side of life…
(Worse things happen at sea, you know.)
Always look on the bright side of life…
(I mean – what have you got to lose?)
(You know, you come from nothing – you’re going back to nothing.
What have you lost? Nothing!)
Always look on the right side of life…
From Monty Python’s “Life of Brian”
words and music by Eric Idle
I started at Dkos over a year ago..I started here very early on. I am over at MLW. I check in with KO’s blog. I have some big issues with a front pager over at Dkos (not Armando or Kos). I have received low ratings over at Dkos by some front pagers here at the Trib. I have slammed Armando with a couple of very low ratings. I have troll rated a front pager there. Some of us have thicker skin than others. I guess I just realise that with all the UID’s over there when I see maybe fifty or a hundren or so Assholes making foolish remarks (ie: the latest Cindy Sheehan Trash talk)I rate them accordingly and move on. 1 amazing diariest makes up for a hundred and fifty bad ones to me. I understand the ratio and know that one persons opinion is not greater than another. Sometimes I get disappointed, other times I am inspired. Unless I am banned I plan on staying at all the blogs that I subscribe to. I do agree with Booman, a lot of the times when I see people here making comments like “The big Orange place” and sometimes much more negative..I ignore you if you write that. I don’t think you guys would like it if folks over there called Booman Trib names. I don’t think we all have to get along, however I do think we need to respect each other as we really all want the same thing as far as the big picture goes. I do think it’s time to stop using negative names to describe Dkos. Just remember…If it wasn’t for Kos, there would be no Booman Trib. Booman has made that clear. So if you respect Booman and all that he has built here…I think it’s time to cut out the childish behavior with the name calling. The people here don’t seem jealous, bitter or mean spirited…so if you don’t have anything nice or constructive to say about Dkos don’t say it. In the long run..it is not important or necessary. Markos and Dkos is not the enemy. Keep your eye on the ball and you will win the game. That is Chamonix’s 2 cents.
I don’t think you guys would like it if folks over there called Booman Trib names.
As I recall, there was more than a little of that in the aftermath of the Pie Fight.
I don’t think we all have to get along, however I do think we need to respect each other as we really all want the same thing as far as the big picture goes.
I don’t think that’s the case at all. Markos has made it quite clear that there are a number of issues that he considers expendable that others — including many folks here and elsewhere — consider indispensible, and they are not minor issues. There’s only room in Markos’ version of the Big Tent for people who focus on his priorities and politely STFU about anything else.
I see “the Orange place” called names and refered to all the time here and it is a “Cute” nickname I guess..I find it useless and pointless and nasty. It should stop. Sometimes misunderstanding people and what they write is a big problem. I would bet money that Markos does respect what Booman has done with creating the Booman Tribune. I have not seen him slam the Trib. If you have proof please provide a link. I am talking about the Booblog as a whole. Not individual stuff. The big picture. Cindy Sheehan may have used the wrong words in a sentence and she was practically hung on a cross and left for dead the other day. It was uncalled for. Needless and useless chatter insued. It was the biggest non fight and waste of time and energy. Cindy meant no harm and it could have been worked out instantly with an email or comment in her own diary. She didn’t need a personal diary title attack on her. Maybe right message, wrong messenger. I weigh the pro’s and con’s and try to not only look at details but also the big picture. The in fighting drives me NUTS. People that blog at Booman exclusively have a home..be happy..respect it and don’t be nasty or mean spirited about Dkos. Take the high road. It will only make the Booman Trib a better place and a classier place. And take mush stress off the booman.
Booman brought the subject up. Kos hasn’t earned respect from many people, so if you ask fo our opinion don’t be surprised if it isn’t a good one. Also this is the same sort of defense that the dlc uses, and it doesn’t stop kos from criticizing them. This is why I think he is dlc jr league.
I frankly find it disturbing that the principals at dKos spend so much time and energy watching what is said about them. You know what? Whether it dKos is discussed or praised or damned here or not, it’s going to be discussed or praised or damned somewhere, at least as long as it’s popular, and while it might occasionally be necessary to respond to an especially outrageous accusation that gets an unusual amount of attention, the extreme sensitivity of the dKos front-pagers to criticism reflects more on them than on their critics.
Personally, I flat-out dislike a number of major players at dKos for the simple reason that they are frequently offensive and inflammatory, deliberately and unapologetically. I’m not the only person who has recieved from the dKos crowd the unambiguous message that folks like me are at least embarrassments to the party, and at worst, the reason for the party’s poor fortunes. Are they expecting to be greeted with flowers for this?
Well, fuck it. They win. I’m sick of hearing about dKos, but at the same time, as the left-wing equivalent of Free Republic — snark intended — what happens over there is news in its own right, and I’m not willing to pretend that there isn’t an elephant in the room when it keeps stomping on the furniture. There’s about a million other things I could be doing right now other than worrying about Armando googling himself, and I think I’m going to go do a few of them. Unlike the swollen egos at dKos, I’m pretty sure the sun will rise at the appointed time without my personal intervention.
Clearly you do care or you wouldn’t be so hung up about it and an angry. Everyone has opinions, attitudes and personalities. Deal with it, work throught it or just ignore it. If the BooTrib is your resting place so be it. Just ignore dkos and forget about it. Christ…there are so many far rightwingnut freakshow blogs that are the defination of Evil…Dkos is not one of them. Appreciate Dkos for inspiring Booman to bring you the BoomanTribune and move ON.
To be fair you could ignore the complaints, at least if as you say everyone has opinions attitudes and personalities.
Most people get angry when they feel abused, that is natural.
No…that is the wrong way to look at it. The owner and host of this site is uncomfortable with it. There is not reason for it. The Booman Trib is an awesome place..it will only do better and succeed if you look at it the other way. There are to many awesome diaries here and diarist. There is no need to be wasting time dissing another blog. Especially another blog that begat the Booman Trib. This place is a great, more thoughtful, smaller blog. I see no reason for some of the memebers to continue to harbor resentment to Dkos. It will get them nowhere. Why is it worth it? what do you get out of it? It is like childhood games on the playgroung. Our gang or team against yours. This place is to classy for that kind of stuff. The family here is far to secure for this kind of behavior. It is a waste of air and energy.
he posted a front page article on it. eodetta didn’t. He obviously wants a discussion of the subject.
Very, very well put.
There are so many people here that I respect so highly, and I don’t want to piss them off, but I’ve been thinking this for a while now: Why talk about what goes on over there?
Please, please, please don’t be offended, but I really don’t care what goes on there. If I did, I’d go visit.
I know that when I first landed here, I had nothing nice to say about those other folks. But I thought to myself, I’m in a new place–why continue to re-live something so negative?
We shouldn’t be the anti-anyone site. We should be all about Boo Trib. Most of the time, we do just that. We have our own distinct culture here. That should be celebrated: We ask questions; type goofy stuff; share recipes and what we do with post-holiday leftovers; talk about pets & animals.
Oh yeah … and we discuss and analyze politics.
I know there are times when they come up, and I suppose it’s because they are a big site. OK. But going on and on about them takes away from what this site is, and worse, makes our host uncomfortable. So let’s continue to make THIS site–with its distinct culture, its intelligence, its thoughtfulness, its compassion, its humor, its goofiness (I mean that in the best way ‘cuz I’m probably the biggest offender–ya gotta laugh, ya know?)–even better than the day before.
Boo, is my check in the mail? I could use it.
:<)
Hmm. Go back and re-read. I am moving on. I thought I was pretty clear about that.
I’m going to hit the post button now, and then I’m going to log out and find something to do other than political blogs. Yes, I’m angry, and your STFU post in response to my response to the main STFU post, besides being ironic, is an example of why I’m angry.
I’m sick of the recurring STFU theme, but I can’t do anything about it, so I’m going to just swallow it and STFU, and find some hobby to fill my time where, if someone objects to something I say, they actually debate the point instead of telling me to STFU. Clear enough this time?
I am not trying to fight..I am just saying it seems like a waste of time..really..what do people get from it? aren’t there more important things to write about? So Kos says some dumbass things sometimes..so what. People that didn’t like it leaf. Just because others have chosen to say doens’t mean they agree with Kos on certain issues. I disagree with Harry Reid about A womans right to chose..and he is minority leader…but that doesn’t mean I am going to leave the party because I disagree with him. I disagree with everything Bush says or does but I am not leaving the US. that’s all. Just because I blog here and at Dkos doesn’t not make me the enemy or a bad guy.
and people write about alot of things. Most of the people complaining were banned for ideologies unacceptable to the last harrah blog. It is kind of stalinist. The front page posters their do underhanded stuff. I don’t agree with starks view on Sheehan, but she shouldn’t have had her post erased for god sakes.
You seem real hung up on on Kos is responsible for Booman. Sometimes trailblazers get far too much credit than they deserve. Fact: If it wasn’t them, it would have been someone else. Creating a blog is not finding a cure for cancer. It is not even trailblazing.
Before the internet as we know it there were ‘bulletin boards’. Those are the real godfathers to both booman and Kos et al. People were communicating on-line long before Markos.
As far as Kos being respected for what he did – he earns some respect for that one moment in time. After that it is a new playing board. The lack of respect that some have for him now he has earned on his own. The lack of respect that some have for him now is blow-back for the lack of respect he has shown towards his readership. As for Armando you can multiply my last sentence many many times – to his own admission.
I respect Booman’s discomfort at discussing Dkos or any other blog. But yet he recognizes that it is a legitimate discussion to have and I respect that also.
Blogs are an evolving medium and part of the process of that evolution is discussion of blog etiquette and how blogs should function from the owner on down. That discussion is legitimized by the fact that without those of us having the discussion there would be no blogs. Blogs are a community, a community where we discuss and help shape many issues just as you are trying to do.
It is up to each blog owner to impose their own rules or lack of rules in order to attract the type of audience they seek. In order to do that they must determine from fore-mentioned discussions what that audience they seek is looking for in a blog and shape their community accordingly. We are now having that discussion.
Unlike the swollen egos at dKos, I’m pretty sure the sun will rise at the appointed time without my personal intervention.
the “problem” would be solved by ceasing the multiple front-page entries on this topic. Life will go on.
I, for one, am tired of the constant Washington Post bashing on these sites, and the managing editors aren’t even my friends. Same thing goes — just stop reading it, and find another news source!
because with Woodward, they continue to enable this administration to the paper’s detriment. ‘Hubris,’ ‘how have the mighty fallen’ while trading off on past journalistic glories that have since faded in light of this latest sellout…this is worse than Watergate.
I find it really disturbing. Especially the lengths they’ll go to to make well-intentioned people – like Booman – feel bad about it. That strikes me as similar to some very unhealthy behaviour of some ex-acquaintances of mine.
Frankly, I fail to see what the problem is. If kos doesn’t have a problem, and really has listened to feedback, people will stop criticizing his site. If he hasn’t dealt with the significant structural and cultural problems he’s created, then people will keep doing so.
Asking people to ignore the elephant in the room is just stupid.
And frankly, having a blog that purports to represent the left, but whose central principles are intrinsically hostile to the left is a really damn big elephant.
Let me say this. Because I have said it before.
There is a cult of personality over there at DKos. Hey, it happens to the best and the worst of us. Kennedy. Mao. King. To a greater or a lesser extent, it’s grateful adulation. It’s a dream we all tend to wake up from, except for some others. You could say the same thing about true believers at Atrios’, Steve Gilliard’s, and the rest of the mainline blogs. These guys, in their view, can do no wrong. And sometimes, that’s good. Other times, that’s bad.
I was more a believer during the campaign and the election, when I really, truly needed to have faith and hope and I simply stumbled on DK one afternoon at the office. Now, I am not so much a believer in them, as I believe that our cause is just and that we need to save people’s lives when we win, not just consolidate power.
Now, this may piss off folks, but I think that Kos and Armando believe in some of the cult, too. Despite protestations to the contrary about modesty and humility. Ya know, some of that plays into the cult, too, whether it is genuine or fronting off.
Right: I may not have any solid proof about them, because frankly, I don’t know and have never met these cats personally. Maybe it would help if I did, but I doubt it. I don’t plan to go to the DK shebang in ’06, when previously I wanted to go like any other true believer. Yeah, it was Pie, but it was also Ohio. Shanikka was right and still, she got dogged for it. The reason is that there have been those times that I have not been impressed with them or with other Kossacks, and it’s not just because they have ‘three legs.’ This is what coalition politics truly is, when you don’t like the other person(s), but you have to hold your nose to unite with them out of shared, common goals and information.
And particularly, at those times when people get too exercised for their own good, I think everybody needs to take a pill–and come down off the clouds and <u>the pedestals</u> before real damage is done.
Just my two cents.
Exactly why I left! Check to see what’s up once in now and then, but am starting to not give a damn!
Whenever someone posts a journal about 9/11, voter fraud, ect., the same people come in with threats of being banned. However, I frequently join in those conversations, yet never get troll rated. They seem to back off if the comments remain intelligent after a few posts. I wonder if there realy as militant as they act. As long as it isn’t “pod people”, they usully make one or two comments then move on. I suspect they may not be anti-conspiracy, just anti-idiotic conspiracy. I see the logic behind that, not wanting the sight to become DU. If you keep it realistic, sighting what little mainstream coverage there is of said topics, they will leave you alone.
Of course, mabey I have lucky timing, or mabey my comments are far too intelligent for them to retort to. <snark>
I am not a regular here and have not been a regular at dKos for quite a while so let me inject some perspective.
In a former wave at dKos there were widespread claims that unwelcome speech was just being routinely being hidden (or Hidden). Yet when I wondered over to what I called Hidden Comment Land I generally found three things. One, a lot fewer comments were being hidden than you might think from the complaints. Two, most of them were from diaries and not the main page. And Three, almost all of them were content free screeds familiar to all of us who have been around since USENET newsgroups were the choice for people who have more mouth than brains. The rating system was not perfect but by and large it worked.
There is a recurring problem in the Blogosphere and it extends from Right to Left. I call it “smartest kid in the dorm” syndrome. A lot of people get used to being the go to it guy in their own world, whether the fourth floor of Brewster Hall or the print shop. They are just this more informed than everyone else that they get used to being able to lay down the law, “Well if Bill says so, after all he reads the NYT” or “Bill religiously listens to Rush, so he should know”. Then they decide they should adopt some outlandish screen name and just go out and set the whole Blog world straight. When challenged on how the newly minted Klingonophile actually knows what he claims he knows they lose it. In their minds they are “Bill, the most informed guy in the print shop”, the notion that they have to back what they say to people who could not distinguish them from fellow newbie XNerd is a foreign concept to them.
dKos is kind of foreign territory to me now. It’s like going back to your home town after a period of years and finding that you don’t recognize most inhabitants and most of the inhabitants you recognize don’t remember you. But back in the day we had a saying on dKos, I may even have made it up, who knows, but it went like so “This is dKos, you don’t get to just make shit up”.
In the blogsophere you are just a screenname and a series of posts and comments. For the most part you can check your real world gravitas at the door, particularly if you are using a screenname, because “PaterFamilias has spoken” doesn’t cut it.
Having recently discovered this site. And, its nice to see that there actually is a “booman.” I come here by way of my .rss newsfeed – and I’ve been attracted to several posts here for that reason.
Your frustrations should be expected – how does ANYONE deal with admin’ing a large open forum?!?!?
Cindy Sheehan is a great example. We all have a voice that needs to be heard, and we try and do it our own way. I didn’t personally realize how much respect I had for her until I read her post last night (x-posted to Common Dreams, and Yahoo even via HuffPost). Its genuine – if I don’t fully by into her spiel or her approach, it doesn’t matter. She alone is making global headlines and still keeping it real in the process.
All I wanna know is why BOOMAN?
Read:
http://www.boomantribune.com/special/about
Ugh. I remember the last round of this debate, Armando came over here and cyber-stalked people who weren’t crazy about Kos. Just recently a friend of mine posted a diary on a subject that had already been posted about, and these Kossack Diary Police were incredibly rude and hostile to her, in a completely unnecessary and counter-productive way. That’s why I don’t go there very often, and why I really don’t care about the place. It’s not worth my time. I wouldn’t even be talking about this now, except it’s 1:30 AM, my cat’s asleep on my thigh and I’m too lazy to evict her and go to sleep.
My advice to those who don’t like Kos, who feel injured things that have happened there, who don’t like the tone, is – DON’T GO THERE! Really! You don’t have to. There are plenty of other great sites with great comments and a more friendly, communal feel to them. This one, for example.
I’d just say, respect Booman’s wishes here. There are so many other things to talk about, beyond the Big Orange…and if you’re going to talk about it, don’t be a prick. You know?
And if you wanna go Rude Pundit on Kos’ ass, maybe you should think about starting your own blog. That’s the beauty of those internets…
excuse me…”injured BY…”
Some people have nothing better to do!
.
Before June you could swim a mile before meeting another frog in the pond, sure the site was expanding and the frogs had a good time at BooMan’s Place.
The June floods just opened a new entrance to a secondary pond of enthusiastic writers and knowledgable persons we all knew and we liked it.
Let’s just be grateful we received the manna from heaven, out of nowhere to make the pond grow into a more mature community. The present success of the site is due to all contributing their thoughts and feelings in diaries, comments and many just in readership.
What came forward in your latter diary Everyone Loves Daily Kos is the presence of many young frogs caring to come over and contribute their excellent comments. Another sighting which I personally admire are the first comment writers lately, this is the true excellence of BooMan’s Place to make many persons feel comfortable and become active.
Thanks to all frogs showing leadership throughout the pond’s existence. I personally have not seen, read and not pursued reading comments about dKos bashing ad hominum. I had just kinda healed until your diary showed up … when invited I do leave my comment.
Thanks BooMan! Wish you all success because you deserve it and work hard at it.
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
I’m just getting back from Turkey Day. FSM am I fat. I ate a whole pie. Just getting my feet back on the ground, and I return to front page news of another “pie fight”-like event.
Tried to go back and understand the conflict. From Stark’s post, to Cindy’s response, to some new wave of Orange-Green discord that is front paged here, and apparently linked elsewhere.
And I am left being really dispirited. Disappointed. I walked out of here on Wednesday thinking that we had won the world. “Operation Yellow Feather” had united the progressive blogosphere to some extent. We were showing the true power of cooperative effort. The awesome activist tool these Internets are. And to come home to this. Ugh!
I don’t want to diary this. I’ll just run on a bit in commentary, since BooMan seems to want a place for us to talk about it.
I never wholly left “the orange place.” (BTW, I completely reject that “the orange place” is a pejorative term — it is a term of endearment to me, that recognizes the differences between dKos and the pond — and I’ve recently used the term in a diary there that was well received, so for those who think it is degrading to dKos, I have to disagree strongly, and say that we have enough people telling us what and what not to write on the right). If you want to have an impact on the world, while you are sitting at your keyboard in 2005, I don’t see how you can ignore dKos. I’ve had complaints. I feel more comfortable in the small town atmosphere of the Pond, so I write far more here. But I still read dKos, and still go there, and still post occasionally.
To be honest, I thought Stark’s diary made a good point in a pretty poor way. Cindy’s on our team. She may not be the most savvy person in the world when it comes to the use of language. I think she makes some errors that you would not get from a polished, life-long politician. But if you’ve looked in the woman’s eyes, and I have, then you probably sense that she is sincere in her cause. And we ought not to eat our own in this movement. I’m pretty certain Stark could have handled the criticism in a far less confrontational way. But, we get strong opinions in the progessosphere. So here we are.
The fact that the diary was removed is distressing to me. I value an open debate above all. That is one of the things I really like about BooMan’s site. You can get almost as off the wall as you want, and you won’t be censored. Not much peer pressure even. And that is a boon to creative thought in my view. And we’ve got to be creative to beat the bastards back, I think.
I’m also no fan of flame-wars. What is the point of people writing back and forth and troll rating one another? Seems counterproductive. A line from Napoleon Dynamite should be remembered, from Rex, of the Rex-Quondo Dojo — “Break the wrist, and walk away. Break the wrist, and walk away.”
And finally, I’m a little confused at BooMan’s front paged diaries. About this. It seemed like a forum to fan the flames, a bit. I don’t think that was the intent, but in hindsight, it seems pretty predictable that if you put up two front page diaries and ask folks to gripe (to be fair, I guess it is one to ask folks to gripe and one to ask folks not to gripe) then folks are going to gripe (or not gripe).
My major disappointment in this is the timing. I honestly thought that many of us in the Booman community were about to start building a multi-site coalition to be active. To have a voice. To make a better world. And we won’t march as well if we are shooting ourselves in the foot. I think we have to embrace our natural allies. Stand with them. Even if they make a slip of the lip, or seem less well-educated on issues that we know well.
So I’m asking that we let this pass. Reform ranks. March together. Let bygones, etc. Because Tampopo and Manny (and others) have an Alito Campaign in the oven, if I’m not mistaken. And I’ve got something bigger I want to roll out this week, and see if the creative powers here at the green place can help tune it up, and then help spread it to the world. The orange world. And the blue world. And the red world. And the black and the white. Because we’re gonna go to Michigan, and Pennsylvania, and North Dakota… and someone’s going to record all this screaming.
So there you are. A diary, within a comment, under a diary. We’ve got an enemy to fight. These bastards are torturing people. Killing people. Taking every bit of capital that isn’t tied down and giving it to their rich friends. This ship is going down. This planet if fucking choking. And we haven’t got time to be yelling at our comrades. And if I use another cliche, like the fat lady hasn’t sung, or we still have one more at bat, then I want someone to personally troll rate me, and explain that it was for the overuse of cliche.
I’m off for a little more R&R. Remember what Rummy said, as applied to the blogosphere: “We seek peace and justice with the websites we have, not with the websites we want.”
May his Noodly Appendage touch you all.
Good morning Joe,
I don’t blame you in the least for being disheartened or disappointed upon your return. What you and Manee and others achieved last week was nothing short of spectacular.
For what it’s worth, I’m still so damn impressed with everyone involved in Operation Yellow Feather. The creativity, the energy, the amazing level of collaboration, the cross-blog recommendations for diaries – it was all quite a sight to behold. It was also a wonderful example of how we CAN make a difference. When we unite. When we contribute our individual talents. When we listen to each other. When we work for common goals.
With your current team of engaged, united contributors, I foresee nothing but continued success with your endeavors. (And I’m not just blowing sunshine and rainbows in your direction to make you feel better. My comments are straight from the heart.)
Thanks again for your outstanding contributions and leadership – and please don’t let current events bring you down. You’ve set the gold standard for blog collaborations, and I wanted you to know that it hasn’t gone unnoticed.
I look forward to the next mission.
All my best, A
Thanks for the kudos, A. It wasn’t me though. Miniscule me. Mostly the infrastructure that exists within this community, tapped by Manny and others (people behind the scenes with lists, and such, who I don’t even know by screen name).
And I didn’t mean to sound down. I can’t wait for next week. Just a little surprised to see a war in the wake of victory. 🙂
I dunno, it seems to me the reason for this particular fight is Stark’s obsessive (and obnoxious) rant against Cindy Sheehan. Hey, it’s his right, but he didn’t like the result.
But not content to leave it at that, he came back here and posted a diary on it, just hoping for a dKos bashing. Which was successful. Also asking that if anyone wants to criticize him, go back to dKos to do it.
Stark is the genesis of this brouhaha.
This is your site, and it’s a nice one. But if you want the tenor to change, maybe you should talk to Stark.
As far as I can tell, he has a very appropriate screen name.
Stark’s diary is by no means the only one that has bashed Kos or the Orange Zone, or people who have posted diaries to the Orange Zone, as I sometimes call DK.
There should be criticism of Cindy Sheehan’s methods or statements even from progressives, as she is now a public intellectual/critic/activist. She needs to continue to grow.
As you may…
A few points, if you don’t mind.
Firstly, IIRC correctly stark is a woman.
Secondly, while you characterize her posting as obsessive (and obnoxious) (your words) I’ve tried to view them at as an opportunity to learn a little more about native american sensibilities. I’ve been doing this the past couple of days too, not here at Booman or Kos, but going onto the internet and reading about events such as the Trail of Tears and also early Cherokee events in Texas. I have to say I’ll never look at another 20 dollar bill, with the portrait of Jackson on it, the same way again. You see, in some small way, I now can imagine just a little better than I could before the indignation/anger at injustice that is so easily “seen” in starks diary. I suggest that whatever “personality issues” one might have with the messenger lets not ignore the message.
Thirdly, according to the following statement made by stark she was invited to post on this issue by a front pager here at boomantribune:
and I have seen no one disagree with that statement or refute it.
Fourthly, You mention that if anyone wants to critcize “him” (your reference to stark) you feel they should go back to dKos to do it.
Well im fine with that too, but let me point out that the proper place to criticize stark at dKos, the original diary, has mysteriously disappeared or been deleted. And according to the diaryist:
The issue certainly seems more complex to me than it might first appear.
Anywho, I hope no one characterizes my post as an attack on anyone as it’s not.
Dearest Boo – don’t be frustrated. You are a gentle soul who threw a party for the whole neighborhood. Some of the neighbors are at odds, and brought their feelings with them. As a wise man once said “Don’t let the bastards get you down.”
Remember:
We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
Built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
Say you don’t know me or recognize my face
Say you don’t care who goes to that kind of place
Knee deep in the hoopla sinking in your fight
Too many runaways eating up the night
Marconi plays the mamba, listen to the radio, don’t you remember
We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
Someone always playing corporation games
Who cares they’re always changing corporation names
We just want to dance here someone stole the stage
They call us irresponsible write us off the page
Marconi plays the mamba, listen to the radio, don’t you remember
We built this city, we built this city on rock and roll
your civility and good manners and good sense come through again, as always.
Democracy is a nice theory but up close in the real world it can be ugly.
We need folks with civility and good manners and good sense, so
thank you
thank you
thank you.
Keep up the good work.
Choose your friends wisely.
Here AND on dKos.
Not everything is what it seems.
And SOME things that once were one way…or at least appeared to be one way… are now another.
That’s the way of the world.
As the world turns.
HAMLET: And therefore as a stranger give it welcome.
There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
Shakespeare-Hamlet, Act I, scene V
Or…
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…it IS a duck.
Some people from dKos are angry at you for what is happening on your blog?
Some of your OWN people are messing with you in certain ways?
Some people that you know well at dKos adamantly refuse to (publicly, at least) deal with the irregularities that have occurred in voting and resgistration procedures here in Banana Republic America since the 2000 election?
Some people who are quite prominent on dKos routinely and viciously attack anyone who posts there who:
1-Disagrees with them.
and
2-Shows some talent as a communicator?
Check ’em out, Boo.
Frankly, I think that you ought to forget the whole thing.
If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…it IS a duck.
A LAME duck, now.
Yesterday’s blog, no matter HOW many people join.
Fuggedaboudit!!!
You bettah off here.
As are we all.
Let them dream of pundit heaven
While we live in this REAL “reality-based” world.
FUGGEDABOUDIT!!!
BT is evolution in action. You should be proud.
People there are “angry” at you?
Invite them over.
They should be angry at what they have let that blog become.
Really, Boo.
Check ’em out.
And…choose your friends wisely.
Not everything is what it seems.
And not everyone is who they seem to be.
Check ’em out.
AG
…and I don’t mean the conflicts of personalities, though that certainly happens here and elsewhere.
No, what I mean is the conflict between party and principle. That conflict is engaged at Daily Kos with the volume turned up to 11.
Some people in this thread say “form up the ranks” or some such sentiments. But the problem is that there are no ranks, because there is no unity of purpose.
As long as people vote their interests, there will be conflict with the party-first attitudes that seem to dominate Daily Kos.
People engage in it there, but the debate is bigger than Daily Kos. Personally I think such debate can only make the “left” stronger, not weaker, as many seem to claim. Because the left is based on morality and ideas, not gangbanger homie loyalties, and can take real spirited debate.
And this is only going to heat up as the elections approach.
I hear you saying you don’t want any of that debate here, if it’s engaged at Daily Kos. I can respect that. But you know, when it comes to politics, people get passionate, and my guess is that this will happen again and again. Because when it comes to “the left” what happens at Daily Kos sometimes is news itself.
BooMan, I’m writing this before I’ve read through all the comments, so I may be a mere echo here. YOU have provided a great place for all of us to be pretty much free to do what we want (except be pricks). Dkos provides many things but does not provide well for the serious discussion of that site. If these discussions were attempted over there, a falme war and/or large scale banning would result. I don’t like to see these discussions here either, they belong over there. But people feel powerless to do anything over there fearing the inevitable flame war. So you have been the unfortunate host of these discussions. Occasional comments about dkos are one thing, entire diaries are troubling and counterproductive.
anybody shopping for sex toys this holiday season?
i have my top 50 reviewed and ready to share
and if you ask me (which no one ever does – strange that) these silly wars wouldnt happen if more of us were having great sex…now get out there and get some.
Well, when are you putting up a diary with your list and reviews? Think of it as a public service announcement…
That I was more agreeable back in the day when I nicknamed my husband “mattress”…..hmmmmm
I took a break from BooTrib to wander over to Good Vibrations to make my wish list for the spouse…but will wait for your diary to submit it… 😉
Whatever! I like both sites.
I think of the Daily Kos’s power more in terms of getting out unknown stories than as a proliferator of progressive philosophy or campaign strategy. So… I guess ideological differences for me are more about learning and discussion than some of the accusations concerning the dkos turning into a slightly different DLC. Regardless, it’s great that so many minds can be in one hub.
I do like how Booman does engage in the comments though..
Dkos is a raucous, rowdy place were some very important conversation takes place on a daily basis. I generally prefer the community feel of Bootrib, but I check out dkos at least once a day to see what’s percolating. The pace is frenetic; you have to be almost obsessive to find the gems in the bazillions of diaries that flash by at the speed of light.
I think the trick of getting the most out of dkos is not taking anything there personally. When we get too full of ourselves, we become incapable of seeing the real issues and focus on such silliness as ‘pie wars’ and Armando’s personality. The real issues are bigger than life and should be easy to focus on, like torture, the decimation of the middle class, the corporatization of our government… or winning a few damn elections. Those are the reasons I keep going back to dkos, and will continue to do so.
Markos is indeed becoming a player in the Democratic community… I don’t have to agree with every damn word he’s ever uttered, and I don’t, I still support him.
I liked the old Booman Trib more than the new one, it was more thoughtful and less self-absorbed. Most blogs have waves of people joining, often the waves have a sort of charcter. It usually takes a while to get the new wave to learn to be polite, allow other viewpoints, and stop with the invective and pernicious labelling.
Boman, I for one am so sorry that you have to keep going through this….
I don’t know what the answer is, since you have tried so many times to get your point across, but it always comes up again.
How about a twist on the Las Vegas motto, “what happens at Kos, stays at Kos.” Period! A simple site rule and then a simple comment, we do not bash other sites here.
I am curious if kos bashers go to other sites to bash or just here….
Seems like members of this site should be attentive to the wishes of the site owner, who makes it possible to have this site.
I have been staying out of this Kos stuff for awhile now and rarely go to the site for one reason, it’s just too big for me, I like the spirit and writing on smaller sites.
Whatever reason you began the site, I was eager for it because I always liked your diaries. My coming over never had anything to do with frustration or a particular issue. It was quality writing. That’s what I meant to post in the earlier thread asking for suggestions. Keep up the quality and the people will come.
And here we have the crux of the problem maybe, I too came here for reasons that I wanted a smaller, nicer site, where maybe I could have a voice…I was just a squeak over there.
I got my voice here and it enabled me to start my own site, never would have happened if I had not come to Booman, not seen the incredible community spirit develop, which started on day one of this site.
I am grateful, appreciative and an admirer of Booman and therefore respect his wishes. It’s his house!
I followed Kos for years. Posted comments once and a while but not excessively (I have enough to do in my life.)
Over time I’ve found myself more and more disillusioned, especially with the bickering debates (rather parallel to my disillusionment with Democratic Underground.) And some of the attitudes of the staff and writers.
My reading to frustration ratio was becoming unacceptable. Then I recently stumbled upon this site. Much better ratio. 😉
Do I have issues with Daily Kos, oh yes. Would I spend my time talking about it? Not so much.
Instead it is much better that I think that I’ve found a place that I like and put it all behind me.
Seriously?
I think we’d all agree BooTrib is a great place all on its own. People choose to spend time here, create content here, support each other here.
Boo, you’ve got an awful lot to be thankful for here. The energy you and Susan have put into this place has really paid off.
Maybe you’re just taking that for granted. Because this is what you wrote (emphasis and order mine):
I’ve never met Armando but we have exchanged emails for a long time. I feel like I know him.
I don’t know Markos at all
And you have how many thousand boo-tribbers?
How do they rank compared to your friend (Atrios)?
How do they rank compared to your acquaintance (Armando)?
How do they rank compared to that pseudo-celebrity you really don’t even know?
You ‘discovered’? You mean Armando (A.) told you, right?
I guess your friend A. is entitled to have his opinions of the merits of your bloggers’ critiques. But why you would give any more weight to them vs say, the people here at your own blog is a bit beyond me…
Is this our (collective) blog? Or you and your friend’s blog, but we’re okay to use it, if we don’t offend your ‘friend’?
And why do you care so much that someone you don’t even know feels put-upon by members of your blog, who really are only referring to acts and patterns of that someone — in the exact same tone, manner, and with the same ‘respect’ that any public figure gets here? Heck, with generally far more respect than that same someone gives to anyone he criticizes?
Take that quote piece by piece:
Boo, you’ve brought this topic up before. Its almost a recurring theme. It bugs me that this bothers you at all — it makes me question what your bottom line is.
So what exactly are we talking about here?
You’re a publisher. I get that much. Unlike TBL and others, you somehow feel personally responsible for everything published on your blog?
I think what bothers me about this, Boo, is this sounds so much like Sulzberger protecting Judy Miller. I get that they’re friends. He’s a publisher, who admits Judy has made a few mistakes, too. But even tho she’s his friend, he doesn’t stop his reporters from covering what she did. Its news (unfortunately for him and Judy). But he makes it pretty clear he doesn’t want the other reporters to really say anything bad about Judy. Or to bring her up in related contexts. He defends her, while downplaying her faults. And the message is clear, he’d be much happier if everyone he publishes would just pipe down and follow suit.
My advice to you, Boo —
Anyone with kids in jr high (or memories of jr high) will recognize what kind of friend A. really is.
I can make my own determinations about who is a friend of mine and who is not.
I’m not going to respond to this point by point. But you should try to understand the human element here. I don’t mind if people disagree with me. But I don’t like it when people make groundless accusations about me. Someone once suggested that Markos and I were working in cahoots and that I was bought and sold by the DLC, and that we were really looking to destroy the webroots movement. I mean, that’s really insulting, as well as insane. What does it say about my character when someone makes such accusations? It’s that type of thing that bugs me when it is levelled at other bloggers. Chris Bowers is also a friend of mine. I’ve seen some really paranoid and hostile things written about him. Stuff he did not nothing to provoke.
It is part of the game that we are all going to come under some suspicion and that people are going to disagree with us. But I don’t have to like it. If I were publishing the NYT I could demand that people back up their character assassinations before I printed it. Here I have to decide whether to delete it. So far, I have not deleted it. I have not banned people. But that is a choice, and it is a choice to publish stuff that is critical of my friends rather than censor people. Can you not see why that makes me uncomfortable?
People have friends you know. It’s not a conspiracy.
Yes, I know.
And if your friends choose to make themselves public political figures, they’re going to be subjected to the same variety of scrutiny and speculation as any other public political figures.
You yourself refer to when your own speculation on election fraud was viewed by some of these same “friends” as conspiracy theory.
Heck, why do you keep making yourself feel bad about this stuff?
first of all, the public figure thing cuts two ways.
For instance, you are anonymous. If suddenly 40 diaries start floating around the ether all about how Yaright is a bad person, it might upset you but it won’t have any effect on you in real life.
Well, any who cares to know can discover my real name or Atrios’s or Kos’s, and others publish under their real name. When we get slammed it goes on the record. We have to accept that. But it does change things a bit.
On the other hand, since we are public figures, what we say and the decisions we make are legitimate topics of interest and discussion. It’s called publicity. And we all seek some of it to some extent.
Yet, when people make false accusations or assume the worst about us there are no safeguards to protect us like there would be at the NYT’s. So, that is why I find these threads difficult. Because they merge the legitimate with the loony, the fair with the unfair. And since I don’t know all the facts, I can’t very well determine where the line is. As I said, I am explaining my discomfort. I’m putting it on the table.
I really do feel bad about your discomfort.
And you’re right, those of you who have attached your real names to your blog id’s are a bit more ‘exposed’.
That means a lot.
That doesn’t mean that those of us who haven’t don’t have feelings, too.
You have bloggers here who have been 100% right on the facts, respectful in tone, and still been mercilessly excoriated by A., TBL, and other ‘named’ bloggers.
You have bloggers here who work very hard to make BooTrib the wonderful place it is. Some are refugees from past exoduses (forced, or voluntary). They have feelings too. And since they’ve chosen to give you their trust and make this blog their home, it creates a special relationship between you and them.
And two days in a row you’ve posted pieces which (unintentionally?) are telling them they are wrong to be mean to TBL, A., or the Orange Place.
Sure, a few folks have been a bit careless with their complaints, or brought this on themselves (Jerome’s theory), or in some way deserve these front-page posts.
But the vast majority of us have really done nothing wrong here. And from another point of view, you’re yelling at us. You’re saying you’re uncomfortable. Sure, we get that. But you’re implying its our fault that you’re uncomfortable.
I object to that. I just don’t get what most of us who hold very low opinions of A or TBL or the Big Orange have done that is so very wrong.
I get that you feel like you have to take sides in what you’re seeing as a fight between one set of friends (A, TBL, BO) and another (your own bloggers).
But its not us asking you to take sides. So please, while we understand your discomfort, remember that your own front page posts are causing our us discomfort, too.
We love this place. That’s why we’re here. We love you by extension. We don’t want you to feel uncomfortable. Please don’t make us feel uncomfortable, either.
who is TBL?
TBL = The Blog Lord (okay, so he does have a smidge of an ego issue), aka ruler of the Big Orange.
Why don’t I just use their ‘real’ names? Because they don’t speak for me, so I don’t give them free press, or up their google ranking, or endorse them in any way. They often support things that I fundamentally oppose, or discard my issues in a game of political ‘positioning’. I’m sorry I ever bothered to register over there, now that I’m forever counted as one of their 60,000 ‘supporters’.
You, or Susan, or even Boston Joe — I’d trust you guys to represent me. I’d gladly promote you in general, and trust that any ‘exposure’ that results which grants you more ‘access’ or political capital would be spent in a way I’d approve of.
Tho you are freaking me out abit with these two frontpage posts…
Bunk….
Atrios’s or Kos’s, and others publish under their real name.
They get PAID to do what they do (influence), commentors to do not… although Chris Bowers did put up a notice looking for anyone who wanted to be paid to blog.
They are active political operatives engaged in trying to funnel money to certain politicians and active in trying to twart certain issues and ideologies in the Democratic party.
If you only knew what you were talking about.
I wish you could spend a few hours talking to Chris Bowers and you would stop this total nonsense. I’m really sick of it Parker. You think you have it all figured out but you don’t know shit.
I was thinking of how in the early days you wrote a lot of “vision for the site” type diaries, plus the ones asking for our input, and those diaries are the ones that pulled us all together…perhaps you should consider doing those types of diaries more often.
But for today I have put up an “I Remember when” diary to talk about the early days so maybe it will remind us of why we like it here so much…please make an appearance on that diary and tell us what you remember…
To many of us, you are a real person, with real feelings and more than that someone we would call friend. Hugs friend!!!
The rest is commentary.
Go and blog!
You created a blog in the Kos family where people can really discuss things and we have little toleration for bullies. If you have a conspiracy theory, go ahead and toss it up there and someone may want to discuss it or they may not. Booman has become what you desire for the nation…….a real Democracy. We talk about all things here, some more than others.
Really! I for one would LOVE to read it!
People change and it makes forgiveness possible.
I respect Armando for his courageous stand against the invasion of Iraq from the time Bush began the drum beats to war.
Mr. Praline: Um…now look…now look, mate, I’ve definitely ‘ad enough of this. That parrot is definitely deceased, and when I purchased it not ‘alf an hour ago, you assured me that its total lack of movement was due to it bein’ tired and shagged out following a prolonged squawk.
Owner: Well, he’s…he’s, ah…probably pining for the fjords.
Mr. Praline: PININ’ for the FJORDS?!?!?!? What kind of talk is that?, look, why did he fall flat on his back the moment I got ‘im home?
Owner: The Norwegian Blue prefers keepin’ on it’s back! Remarkable bird, id’nit, squire? Lovely plumage!
Mr. Praline: Look, I took the liberty of examining that parrot when I got it home, and I discovered the only reason that it had been sitting on its perch in the
first place was that it had been NAILED there.
(pause)
Owner: Well, o’course it was nailed there! If I hadn’t nailed that bird down, it would have nuzzled up to those bars, bent ’em apart with its beak, and
VOOM! Feeweeweewee!
Mr. Praline: “VOOM”?!? Mate, this bird wouldn’t “voom” if you put four million volts through it! ‘E’s bleedin’ demised!
Owner: No no! ‘E’s pining!
Mr. Praline: ‘E’s not pinin’! ‘E’s passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! ‘E’s expired and gone to meet ‘is maker! ‘E’s a stiff! Bereft of life, ‘e
rests in peace! If you hadn’t nailed ‘im to the perch ‘e’d be pushing up the daisies! ‘Is metabolic processes are now ‘istory! ‘E’s off the twig! ‘E’s kicked the
bucket, ‘e’s shuffled off ‘is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin’ choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
Seems to me you’re doing more to perpetuate the sniping than anybody, since you’re the only one talking about it on the front page.
Gotta say, I’m starting to get really sick of all the self-aggrandizing navel gazing among the blogs. All the proprietors want to have the same respect and privileges as “mainstream” pundits and journalists, yet want different standards applied. BT and all its brethren and sistern are constantly filled with (well-deserved) bashing of media ranging from Fox and the Wash. Times to the NYT, CNN, PBS, and WP. And that’s how it should be. If Kos, BT, and the rest want to be public media, then it shouldn’t even be a question as to whether they’re acceptable targets for questioning, snark, and every other kind of attack, fair or not, accurate or not. If you’re going to stand for a free press, then you take everything that comes with it.
I congratulate you on resisting the impulse to censor that which upsets you. In doing so you HAVE stood up for free discussion. OTOH, I have to point out that the first I knew of the current intramural tensions was by way of YOUR frontpage posts. Without them I’d have remained blissfully ignorant of the tiny tremor shaking the foundations of blogland. Presumably there were diaries fanning the flames somewhere that promised nothing worth my time to read. Frankly, if I had the slightest interest in stuff like whether Kos and Armando and Atrios like you or not, and vice-versa, and anybody else they might or might not like, I’d just start watching All My Children or something and get the full treatment. In the meantime, may one remind you that email still works?
This is going to sound flippant, but it is not meant to be.
Can we please focus on the 2006 mid-terms? I appreciate that “stuff” from Kos keeps leaking into Boo’s pond and that he feels frustrated. I appreciate that people need to rant about the mean-spirited behavior in Orangeland.
Sadly, all of this will not win an election next November. Sadly, all of this will not frog march one SOB out of office.
I want to suggest that the anger that some feel towards Dk be re-focused on getting a few progressives (non DLC-types). I know that many are already doing this, so let’s help the others find their place. This community has inspired many to travel, to find their non-internet voices and that is the beauty of this place.
I have an idea of how you can minimize the behavior that you see as problematic, and the cool thing is that you don’t have to do a thing. That’s right: not one thing.
There’s a simple principle that comes from psychological research on learning. We know that behaviors can be extinguished if they are not reinforced. Why do we write? At least in part because of the perception that there is an audience (perhaps that’s not the only reason, but for now that’s what I’ll focus on). BooMan considers those occasional diaries and comments that diss the Orange Blog problematic. By calling attention to those diaries and comments, one is unwittingly reinforcing the behaviors. One way to deal with that would be to get punitive – troll rating commenters, mass purges and such – but that only suppresses the behaviors temporarily. The best thing to do – just ignore it. Really. Don’t write front page stories lamenting the presumed Big Orange bashing. See a diary that looks like it might be Big Orange bashing? Just don’t read it. Don’t recommend. Don’t reply to anti-Kos comments. Take away the payoff and you drastically reduce the behavior.
All that said, I think that much of the concern about Big Orange bashing is little more than a tempest in a teapot – I’ve seen precious few instances of genuine trash talk – though then again I admit that I don’t really go looking for them either.
Don’t respond to what you see as problematic. It’ll go away in time. As a parent, I’ve used the above principle to extinguish behaviors such as temper tantrums – and yes it takes the patience of a frikken saint sometimes to stay the course. But it works, and I don’t have to come across as a prick to my kids.
I created my messageboard for people who feel marginalized unjustly by the mainstream Democratic blogs and messageboards like DU, and Dailykos. That would include prochoice people, people who believe in two states in Israel and Palestine and actually want the Democratic party to act like it, instead of playing lip service to “two states”, and people who are against the war, or people who would like single payer “national health insurance. I won’t triangulate you out of the equation like kos, and you are free to bitch about messageboard marginalization on other boards. Invite your friends as well.
When they marginalize you for your opinion. They marginalize those opinions, not just you and you have a right to be angry about it. They know they are marginalizing you. If you are too leftwing for kos and you get banned you opinions are too marginal and unimportant to address in the Democratic Party. This is the attitude the mainstream kossacks have, and they share it with the dlc. They only way to defeat this is to create a huge Democratic messageboard with many posters that doesn’t marginalize those opinions.
Booman doesn’t marginalize opinions. This is true, but he doesn’t want to talk about the marginalization of opinion on mainstream blogs either. Now I disagreed with Stark on Cindy, but she in no way deserved to have her post erased.
Express yourself and make your self important at the stray roots message board. Quit giving people who would marginalize you credentials in the Democratic Party, by making their blogs big. Click my signiture to join.
earlier thread, Kos is grew out of a desire to provide a strategic and tactical challenge of the Beltway Dems as they were constituted in 2002-2003. And it has succeeded dramatically in doing so. But it was not fundamentally a leftist ideological challenge. It could have taken on the appearance for a while because of Markos’s decision to stridently challenge conventional wisdom vis-a-vis the Iraq War. But Markos’s (and the site’s) goals are not radical in an ideological sense. I think it is this dissonance that has driven the disillusionment and anger of people who feel betrayed. Kos hasn’t “sold out”: its just that as circumstances changed, and time moved on, the alliance of convenience between lefties and Kos’s institutional challenge were frayed as Kos’s positions came more and more to reflect conventional widom inside the Democratic Party, a development that Markos’s site in good measure facilitated.
Ben P
Booman,
You know, as I posted somewhere here today, I “disappeared” myself from over there to keep the overflow from poisoning this place.
Then Jerome goes over there and posts my wtfypb diary in a “stark bashing” thread over there? Wtf?
Talk about responsibiliy. Sheesh.
I really would appreciate people refraining from providing “curier” service for me. Must be apparent by now that I’m perfectly capable of attracting all the attention I need/want from that site.