I’m tired of Welshman, Librarian, and Polydactl slandering Jerome a Paris and me, in their witchhunt against Soj. Just look at the thread here.
If you are a masochist you can read the whole thing here link
For easier reading of this thread, start here.
Heady days those were (none / 1)
I wonder if working on the launch of a new website is like childbirth, in that you repress the memories that are most painful?
I doubt that you would argue that BT and ET were siamese twins, joined at the server and sharing some rather onerous database problems right after the launch.
Anyone can go back and look at content dating to the last week in May on ET, your Welcome Message on Sunday, June 12th and any number of message threads on Monday, June 13th that relate server crashes, missing comments, obliviated diaries and disappearing user accounts. The impact was most felt on BT, but certainly posed a problem for ET. To this day, there are comments in the ET archive that have no user associated with them.
My point is this…the dust up on BT regarding Soj did take place prior to the actual launch of ET, but both sites shared the same advertising. At some point on Thursday, June 9 the ad for Love in Romania was pulled from BT, but on Monday, June 13th the ad reappeared on BT and also the freshly launched ET. The ad stayed in the rotation, between the server crashes of that Monday for at least six hours that I am aware of.
That this ad was not cancelled permanently, but merely pulled says something, as does the fact that of the cadre of front-pagers mentioned in your Welcome Message, Soj got top billing. Top billing came after the stranger-than-life Soj diary advertising Love in Romania that is at the root of this controversy. Anyone who wishes to trip down fantasy lane can do so here…witness a diary by Soj so bizarre that it garnered a whopping 4 comments. It did much better at BT and of course, a week later the faithful followed to the permanent home of soj, ET.
A personal smear by me, I think not. No conspiracy here, just a request for you to refocus your passionate advocacy to your own diaries, and like my mother used to say “be careful who you lend your reputation to”.
Claws beat Skin Take Back America
by polydactyl on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 03:43:58 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
I just went back (none / 0)
and read my email exchanges with Keith on the night in question.
Without revealing private correspondence, I have satisfied myself 100% that I never ran a blogad for Soj’s dating site. As I told Keith, I had been contemplating offering her a free ad, as I gave to pastordan when he came aboard. Once I realized what kind of site it was I dropped that idea. It never ran, and you are lying.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:16:03 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
Come on, Booman (none / 0)
All this lying stuff is not what a discussion on a site is supposed to be about. Apart from the fact that what happened six months ago is totally irrelevant to your support of Soj today.
I think you are aware that you are introducing issues that are deliberately irrelevant.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:02:53 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
Without revealing private correspondence (none / 0)
How short is your memory? You just did upthread!
Chill out Booman, you are going way off track in this discussion. Do you agree with what Soj wrote about women? If not, why do you promote and cross link to the diary?
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:05:23 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
Where (none / 0)
are you getting this from? I do not recall running an ad for Soj’s site at all.
I could be wrong about that, but at least initially ET had no ads sold and was just running the BT feed. So, it is impossible that it would appear at one and not the other. But regardless, I have no recollection of running an ad for the site. I recall her putting the ad in the text of her diary. That diary was eventually deleted.
It never appeared at ET.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:06:27 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
As Booman reminded you (none / 0)
It was pulled when I objected to its contents, which in fairness to Booman, he semed genuinely unaware.
The objection now is not to past history but to you continuation of not rejecting this man having writing on women of this type on his site.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:14:41 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
The ad was provided free (none / 0)
..in exchange for Soj becoming a front-pager. And it did appear on ET, I’m afraid.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:00:37 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
How about you disown polydactl’s total lies? (none / 0)
I will now publish excerpts from two emails I sent to you. I will only redact portions that would reveal things you were saying to me (other than a general concern). I do this to prove polydactyl is a liar.
Jun 6, 2005 11:44 PM
and this:
I’m a little shocked by her dating/nuptial website. I agree we shouldn’t promote it. It seems out of character, and I am little confused by it.
Jun 7, 2005 1:29 AM
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:30:40 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
Booman (none / 1)
You have objected to the publishing of emails. I now note that you have lifted your objections. I will not bother to post my own to you asking you to give proper consideration to these matters.
You “blew off” my concerns on the diary that has now been removed from the site. Soj also posted his advertisement for his dating agency and explained that the posting of this had been discussed with you.
You seem to miss the point – deliberately or because it has not been repeated on here sufficiently. No matter how much evidence has been removed, these views on women remain on Flogging the Symian which is cross posted on the two Tribunes, which continues to be promoted by Soj and you and Jerome continue to promote the site. It is concerned with the present – not with what happened six months ago.
You do not accept our objections to these writings about women. Fair enough. But they are in the public realm and as such are open for comment, as are those who promote them.
As to the other issues, such as whether Soj has experience of being a law enforcement officer, these matter only if a particular knowledge and expertise is claimed by this front-pager on European Tribune. I know that you take torture seriously. I know that you would not accuse your own country of failing in this regard without proper consideration. If a front-page writer claims special knowledge in this area, surely you would want to know if this is correct? As these claims are made publicly, they can be discussed publicly. That is the nature of free speech.
Better that these matters are dealt with by the liberal blogosphere and not dealt with by the freepers.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:52:39 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
No (none / 0)
I do object to publishing private emails and I would never publish anything you wrote to me, no matter how innocuous. However, I feel free to publish my own writing, provided it does not betray any confidence. All that can be surmised from my excerpt is that you were concerned about the diary promoting the Love in Romania site. That is a publicly acknowledged fact. I redacted portions that would have let the reader know anything more specific about what you wrote me.
Now, your friend polydactl just published a fantasy sequence of events made up out of whole clothe, which suggest that I deleted a blogad, only to repost it later. In other words, I really didn’t object to the Love in Romania site.
In fact, I told you on the night of the 7th:
“I looked at the FAQ at your instigation, and I agree that it is too controversial to be a good fit.”
“I’m a little shocked by her dating/nuptial website. I agree we shouldn’t promote it. It seems out of character, and I am little confused by it.”
“You have registered your objection in the comments of her diary and told her directly, and convinced me that we should not offer her any free promotion at EuroTrib. No one can fairly associate you with the site.”
And you have the gall to complain about distortions on Soj’s part? You’re a disgrace. And so are your minions.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:10:55 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
Interesting point (none / 0)
You publish a private email to me but are selective in those that you choose and do not allow me to publish those that undermine your case.
Strange double standards on emails, Boo.
As to the strawman you are trying to create, simply respond to the question that is repeating until I think we must all be tired of by now: Do you support what Soj has written about women and if not why do you continue to promote Soj’s work?
Simple as that.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:15:26 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
What (none / 0)
could possibly undermine my point Keith?
My point is that I never ran an ad at European Tribune at all, ever. The only ‘ad’ that ran at Booman Tribune was the one contained within Soj’s own diary. It was never streamed at either site. I never deleted the diary with the ad, and couldn’t delete the blogad because it didn’t exist. It certainly did not reappear on ET on the 13th for six hours or for a second. That is a lie. Why are these lies being said about me? Why?
I frankly don’t care about your other argument. I already told you to take your opinion and shove it. This discussion is about your participation in a coordinated campaign of lies that have no other purpose than to discredit me and Jerome.
If you could do that by reference to the truth you would. Instead, you distract from the fact that you and your minions are lying through your teeth.
At this point I will take this to the management, since you clearly have no intention of correcting the record.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:21:22 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
Sorry Booman (none / 0)
But you have created all these strawmen yourself.
I am not sure what you mean by “my minions”. This is a very demeaning comment on a number of posters none of whom work for me and, as I do not own a blog, do not write for me. In fact, I think you would be surprised at the relationship between myself and the posters.
All that you are seeing is a shared concern about a front-pager on European Tribune. You have not addressed the issues but turned it into an incredible personal attack on all those who disagree with you. I am saddened, because both your site and your work on it deserves a better representation than you have given here.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:26:48 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
Wait a second (none / 0)
You have not disputed my accusations, nor have you corrected repeated inaccurate statements.
You said this to Jerome: “You initially agreed to his advertising it on your site and you responded on that basis on the now deleted thread on European Tribune.” Jerome was in the hospital that night. He agreed to nothing. There is not deleted thread at ET.
and this:
“To not deny what Soj has said or done and just to pretend that Soj did not promote the dating agency on European Tribune” Soj never promoting the dating agency on ET.
and this:
“Simply removing evidence of Soj pushing the desirabilty of Romanian women because of their povertyin order to make money,whilst supporting the writer of these miserable comments does not in itself remove your association especially as you continue to defend and promote this riter.” Jerome never removed anything.
and this:
“I have checked…you are right. The Love in Romania site has disappeared, just as the original thread on European Tribune disappeared. Does this not tell you something, Jerome?
It is like shredding papers and deleting tape recordings in the White House!” More lies. There was no thread at ET.
and this:
“My understanding is that Soj started the dating site with another bloke. Regardless, a deal was done with Booman that the site could be advertised on European Tribune by Soj, until I pointed out its content.” Regardless of what? You well know that I didn’t make a deal but a friendly offer, and that I rescinded it immediately when you pointed out the FAQ at her site.
and this:
“Your memory is wrong. The diary was written on European Tribune on its first day that it went live. Strangely, the day before the Pie fight on DKos. The advertisement was shown in the body of the diary. It was on this diary that I commented. The embarrassment of that diary led to its removal from European Tribune.” Complete fabrication. Total bullshit. You addressed this to Jerome, BTW, and it would be meaningless if you had accurately noted that ET didn’t even exist yet and the diary ran at BT.
and this, after I pointed out that ET didn’t exist and the diary could not have been posted there:
“It was removed. I have a partial copy if you would like me to post it. I’m glad you were only “tempted” :)” How can you have a partial copy of a diary that doesn’t exist? Where is it. Produce it.
and this:
“Polydactyl has posted the details of what appeared on the European Tribune site. I’m afraid that it was not as distanced as you recall (and it seems a very long time ago now so my own memory is not that good!).” Nothing appeared there. Polydactl is a complete liar, and so are you as should be evident to all by now.
and this:
“The ad was provided free…in exchange for Soj becoming a front-pager. And it did appear on ET, I’m afraid.” You know damn well I didn’t make an exchange. I made a friendly offer, the same I made to pastordan. There was no quid pro quo. You are a liar.
You should be banned.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:45:53 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
Why don’t you leave it, Booman? (none / 0)
The thread speaks for itself and it does rather speak volumes.
This exchange is not productive and should have ended many posts ago, as I suggested.
I repeat that both your writing and site is worth more than this, so I am sorry that you have extended a straight forward comment on a specific issue addressed to Jerome into such a protracted exchange on irrelevancies.
Please think about it. I am sure as adults we can agree to disagree without denigrating eachother.
I appreciated your comments on your viewpoint.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 08:00:06 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
Oh okay (none / 0)
you can slander Jerome with relentless lies and I am supposed to just leave it?
Look at you?
Look at all the lies you’ve told. Look at it, Keith.
How many more lies are posted at your site permanently? Huh?
How about you set the record straight and apologize to me and to Jerome and to the whole Daily Kos community? Then I’ll leave it. And you and Scooter Libby can slink off the stage into infamy.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 08:03:21 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This ]
* [new] The facts stand as written (none / 0)
I cannot keep responding to you endless posts, even though this thread disappeared a long time ago.
I am sure that you will see things differently on calmer reflection. I will carry no hard feelings.
Good night, Boo – for such it was here a long time ago. 😉
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 08:08:33 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
Okay. (none / 0)
“be careful who you lend your reputation to”
Soj got top billing because she was – and still is – a front pager on European Tribune, despite the advertising for that site. The issue was discussed then on BT, and we decided to go on with soj the blogger. Welshman was not happy about it, and pulled out. As I have said, I disagree, but I understand his position.
Our reputation is on the line, as bloggers. Always has been.
But now, we are 6 months later, and the topic seems not to be closed in his mind. To him, and apparently to the whole gang from NIT, we (well, me in particular) seem to have been permanently tainted by that episode, and thus not in a position to write anything about women, prostitution and related topics. He is somehow associating me with the worst potential aspects of an internet dating site, and pretty damn explicitly accuses me of condoning sex trafficking.
And he brings it up often. So I wonder why, and I additionally wonder what your role is in this.
All I can think up, to be honest, is an attempt to try to discredit the European Tribune, and get traffic to NIT.
In the long run, we’re all dead (Keynes)
Read more on the European Tribune – bringing dKos to Europe
by Jerome a Paris on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 04:39:14 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
Nope (none / 0)
It remains an issue whilst you continue to promote Soj and Soj continues to promote Soj in the way that he does.
You are only “tainted” by the episode because you continue the promotion and even on this thread you will not disown Soj’s comments on women.
I asked Susanhu and now I ask you – please explain the “he brings it up so often”.
Can you not understand, Jerome, that some of us find Soj’s comments on women deeply offensive?
As you are fully aware, NIT does not belong to me – please check URL ownership. It is owned by its members. It is not a site which attempts to compete with Daily Kos or European Tribune in any way, although new members are always welcome.
I suggest that this is more personalisation in an attempt to avoid the simple question of my post: why do you continue to promote Soj when being fuly aware of his writings on women and the nature of the business that he attempted to run but in which he and his partner failed?
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:11:39 PM EST
[ Parent | Reply to This | ]
The only credibility I question (none / 1)
is Soj’s. If you would reread my original post, I only questioned your motivation in this diary.
I don’t seek to discredit the EuroTrib, in fact, my concern is exactly the opposite: that you, Jerome as a diarist and ET as a venue are subject to the credibility of the front-pagers in particular.
As I mentioned upthread, while I find Soj’s attitude toward women unsavory, it is his injection of “expertise” into the PDB’s and diaries referring to his police work, that I find suspect. In a recent diary on torture at BT, Soj responds to some insinuations and questions concerning actual experience. To me, these things do not add up. And as to the posters who brought these questions, you will not find them at the NIT (with one exception).
Scattered amongst the diaries and comments, you can find statements interjected that are provocative, posters then egg soj on for more and all they get in return is a hyped fantasy. A good example is in one of Booman’s posts on anthrax:
Soj: It’s pretty darn obvious who took the damned anthrax (hello it’s on VIDEOTAPE) and it’s pretty darn obvious whose interests it served…
Followed by three responses that beg for his special info…tell us what you know that we don’t know….
Soj: I can’t touch this story because of my policy of not messing with a certain group. Read this….
Chorus of posters including Booman: Ooooh, the intrigue of it all. We have to get on this right away….
Soj: .. but I say proceed with caution. There’s a lot of heavyweights involved here. And you’ll have to do it with my help. I’m a little fish in a sea full of big sharks and they’d eat me for breakfast.
End of another fantastic story by soj. Simultaneously saying I can’t be involved, but you’ll need my help.
I’m not seeking to discredit ET, I am merely suggesting that falling lock, stock and barrel in league with someone who is not content to blog the news of the day without injecting personal fantasies, does put your reputation and that of ET on the line the longer it goes unacknowledged.
Claws beat Skin Take Back America
by polydactyl on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 05:57:00 PM EST
Can someone provide a coherent summary for those of us not in the habit of reading through a thread-dump without background info?
I won’t pretend that I understood much of what was being discussed in that thread. And I don’t read ET. But I always thought Soj was a woman.
What the hell? I linked back to Jerome’s diary….sorry I am confused. Booman give us a synopsis would you? I too always thought Soj was a woman and the dating site was legit? What have I missed here?
there was not a blog-ad related to the site soj promoted in one of her diaries. This occurred right after the Pie Wars if I remember correctly (within a day or two). The diary garnered a decent chunk of comments here with a delay of at least a half day until soj logged back in and responded. She put a disclaimer in the diary that she would delete if people felt it was offensive, and she ultimately deleted it.
Those are my memories of the episode, it was several months ago. Apparently some bloggers can’t confront people directly with their grievances and enjoy using the wide brush to slander others repeatedly.
If I’m not mistaken, polydactl has been posting here recently again. I haven’t seen Welshman around BMT since this kerfluffle, why does he feel compelled to still write about this site if he has zero to do with it?
You and Jerome are right to question motives, in my opinion.
That’s what I remember too…it was in a diary, not an ad, and when people expressed their discomfort/disapproval, it was soj that deleted it. It was precisely in the middle of the whole pie war thing.
Oh yeah, I remember that now. At least, I remember the name soj, the diary, and it getting deleted after drawing a lot of fire from people who’d been pie’d out. I’m pretty sure that, had there been an ad, there would’ve been a lot more uproar.
You have a good memory, Manny. Thank you for that.
It’s destructive and accomplishes zero.
my memory can certainly be destructive 😀
(i understood what you meant, just being snarky in a post-migrane stupor)
Stop that … you made me giggle out loud. Sometimes I need to make the subject of a new paragraph more clear. Duh.
Manny, my memory is basically the same. There was no LIR blogad on either BT or ET. I do recall Soj’s diary as I was laid up for a few days and in bed with a laptop with nothing better to do than to follow the unfolding pie war and fallout.
IIRC, Soj’s diary may even have been already posted and was in the recent box when the first refugee diaries started coming over. The argument over it occurred in one of those threads. I was reading “live” when it unfolded and some tempers were running high and a couple of commenters were getting a bit paranoid.
There were calls for immediate action and denuciations (is how I remember it). Booman seemed very fair and reasonable to me. Jerome and Soj were in Europe, unavailable in the wee hours.
There was never a blog-ad, only a link in soj’s signature line.
Once the issues were clear, Booman handled the case with his normal diplomacy. Welshman is being totally unreasonable and I am tempted to use foul language. It really is shameful. His and poly’s lies are totally exposed, yet they keep coming back as if nothing was said.
This is my recollection too (I can’t believe all this is still going on, lol).
I remember because the pie thing happened on the very day soj posted her diary and I remember thinking what absolutely terrible timing it all was. On the one hand, we had this iffy diary, with the diarist gone for the day and lots of controversy in that about the entire thing, and on the other hand we were inundated with angry pie people, posting diaries about objectification of women and all and the other topics – it was a fairly nightmarish wait for soj’s return.
If there had, in addition to the diary, also been a sidebar ad for LIR, that would have been sure to exacerbate things and have caused huge commentary as well. That didn’t happen because the only ad was in the diary and people didn’t catch sight of it til they opened the diary and read it.
And euro trib wasn’t open for business yet, cuz one of the things in the email posted by one of the participants in the commentary was a ‘cat out of the bag’ thing about eurotrib.
I agree.
It was in a diary and it was yanked.
End of story.
Also fucking pissed re: something else. One thing about this blog, is a person can feel free to vent, gripe, whatever….Thanks Booman…
Maybe there is something in the air–lol
I always say it’s the water. 😉
Probably both.
.
Excuse This Rant
On the issue of Soj’s diary related to her ad for Romanian partners, the discussion on the thread did become heated. In the end the diary was deleted. Welshman was a strong criticus of the advertisement.
I can’t grasp what the issue is for the personal attacks on Soj, unless strict a matter of revenge or to get at BooMan for the banning of Welshman. Memory is too short on fights or negative energy. Such a waste of good blogtime!
PS It’s passed 03:00 AM local time – must dive …
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼▼▼ READ MY DIARY
Thanks, Oui!
It’s just plain stupid. No ad was ever run on the sites. So there’s no issue … ManEegee points that out over in BooMan’s diary.
I don’t see why people have to go into other people’s diaries and launch off-topic attacks. It’s just mean-spirited.
As you saw, Welshman and another were still bringing this up the other day. I didn’t realize the history. I think most of it occurred when I took my break from blogging. Irksome.
I can’t grasp what the issue is for the personal attacks on Soj, unless strict a matter of revenge or to get at BooMan for the banning of Welshman.
I read the tail end of that diary last night and must admit I’m puzzled too. For various reasons (which I won’t go into) soj lost me as a reader a long time ago, when he was still reporting to be a cop in Macon, GA. But the conflict between Welshman and Jerome has been apparent for some time and it is this I don’t understand. I’ve no idea why Welshman has been riding Jerome’s ass so heavily and for months now.
It’s a shame because (quite frankly) I read Jerome’s diaries because the subject matter and ensuing threads are uniformly interesting and now the meta game has become tiresome. That particular thread could have been most interesting if it had not had 2 different pissing matches going on, both of which were extremely unpleasant to read and in a diary which I found unusually interesting.
It’s news to me that Boo banned Welshman. Why? And why is this conflict which appears to be centered at ET and here taking place on DKos?
Jerome, Welshman and I began a project that ultimately became European Tribune. For the project we recruited Soj and Sirocco to fill out the front-page team.
That site launched on June 12th.
On June 6th, posted a diary about her new business venture. It was a dating site that looked to match up Romanian women with American men. I told Soj that I might give her some free advertising for the site at European Tribune. I did the same for pastordan when we launched BT. It makes the site look ‘sold’ when it has some ads on it, and it helps get the first advertisers to the site. It was an offer that would benefit both of us.
Keith looked at her dating site more closely than me and found it offensive. He sent me a private email about it at 11 at night. Soj was asleep, Jerome and his son were in the hospital. I instantly agreed not to offer free ads at ET, but Keith quit anyway when Jerome did not respond quickly enough. Again, he was at the hospital.
Since then Keith has been on a jihad to expose Soj’s identity. But today he and his minions launched an attack on Jerome filled with lies, including that:
etc.
all of it, and more, is false.
take a deep breath, relax and get back to moving.
And if you come across anything to go in the trash, feel free to imagine it as Welshman or any of the other folks that are troubling you. You don’t need that additional shit, not now, not ever…
It must have been in a diary as ManEE mentioned — I don’t recall seeing any sort of ad for Romanian romance or whatever. Wouldn’t have bothered me if it had; my problem at The Place That Shall Not Be Named had nothing to do with the ad, but rather the dismissive attitude taken by some at the site when people expressed their legitimate concerns. If I see an ad that offends me, I have no hesitation about complaining — I did send an email to ESPN regarding a series of beer commercials that I felt were demeaning, and I have not seen those commercials in quite some time (probably a case of the contract not being renewed, but hey, it’s a start). But “what’s past is prologue”, as Shakespeare or his understudy wrote; what good is it to keep rehashing something from many months ago? Let it rest, people, let it rest…
but after being called a liar repeatedly in Jerome’s diary, I feel compelled to share some correspondence of my own.
It is not to further enrage the already pissed Booman, who if one were to read all of my posts in the linked diary, you would find I was complimentary of ET, BT, Jerome, Booman and Susanhu.
I posted a reply to Booman as follows at dkos:
Understand that the only reason I would continue this discussion and post a private conversion is to clear my own reputation and to show that my recollection “was not a fantasy made of whole cloth”. I wrote the following on the 15th:
My post last night in essence was this…we have no control over Soj, how he does business or LIR directly and can just voice our collective displeasure, speak to the injustice of objectification and worse that happens all around the world.
(name witheld)’s request for suggestions on how to rectify the whole dust-up elicited a question from me which I included in the open post: Is BT dependent on Soj’s blogad for revenue or was this an ‘in kind’ donation of ad space in return for Soj’s frontpager status. There is a difference, although subtle between Soj paying for the ad or the ad running as payment to Soj. That was a question I would have liked answered. Either way, it reflects badly on BT, but doubly-badly if it were not pulled for fear of losing an author.
Third, I suggested that readers of all three sites by and large had the same interests in common and that I hoped that there could be reconciliation and the clarification of misunderstanding among the readership at BT.
Jerome, Booman and anyone else who would care to listen…listen to the tone of my posts upthread and look at their content and ask yourself if I was doing anything except trying to separate the work on ET and BT from the work of soj. I wish you had done this yourself at some earlier date.
I do not wish to further stir this anthill, but I really could not let a clear accusation of being a liar, go unresponded to.
Yes, I did see the nekkid grrrls next to BT’s ad on Soj’s site today
Is the ad in question from soj’s site or BooTrib? During those days I was logged into this site 20+ hours for a week, no joke, due to the influx of new members, and I have zero recollection of any ad at BooTrib or EuroTrib promoting LIR, only the diary which was deleted.
Soj’s Flogging the Simian site during May, maybe April too, and the ad ran into June. I bought that ad for $20 or something to help her out. It had the old frog as a logo. When she launched her site she gave herself a free ad for LIR, which then appeared next to mine.
so the ad for LIR at soj’s site is moot since this is BooTrib and not FTS.
I still stand by recollection that there wasn’t an ad for LIR here or EuroTrib.
I bought an ad at FTS long before i knew anything about LIR. The fact the ads were being shown together at FTS was meaningless, but made into an endorsement by me of LIR. If you look at polydactl’s email from the 15th it is already filled with every lie that is being repeated now.
This was a coordinated attempt by Keith to undermine ET through a disinformation campaign. It has been from the beginning. He sabotaged the project even before he left it. First he launched the International Tribune while we were developing ET, supposedly as a team. Then he mentioned the name of the site on Dkos before we registered the domain name and it was promptly bought up. That is why the URL is eurotrib and not europeantribune. He is behind the campaign to expose Soj’s identity. And I have suspicions that he or his allies have planted some of the info that makes soj look bad, and that they promulgating as evidence of her duplicity. I can’t prove it, but given the level of today’s dishonesty I am lending it new credence.
All in all, a totally reprehenible performance.
I am baffled by anyone not expecting adds like that (nekkid grrrls) to appear on a site called “flogging the simian” by a blogger with the name “SOJ”.
Am I the only one that is clued in to the corralation that can be drawn from the two names?
I like what Soj writes. No offense to anyone that may disagree. I can’t comment on the “dating site” since I never saw it.
Am I the only one that is clued in to the corralation that can be drawn from the two names?
Can you elaborate on that? What connection is there? I remember reading some of this kerfluffle when it happened, and saw a couple of not-very-nice comments, but I’d be interested in more explication.
Yeah, me too… I get the “Flogging the Simian” part (=”Spank the Monkey”? I’d guess), but I’m lost on the “SOJ” bit… Can’t for the life of me figure that out.
I remember like a year ago finding the Flogging the Simian website. I thought it was incredible and I admit that I chuckled at the name. 🙂
The only thing that ever bugged me about Soj was the constant complaining about being broke and needing money. Maybe that’s part of the reason for the mating site, probably alot more money in that than blogging for people who are appreciative enough to read it but not enough to help he/she pay the rent…
Anyway, whenever I’ve read Welshman stuff on dKos, it infuriated me. The guy is obviously a prick who’s jealous that nobody bothers to go to his site. He just seemed like a whiny, snivelling, spoiled brat…
I had a long answer typed out for this, but I am not sure it is my place to be discussing this. I am going to shut up and back out of this thread for the simple reason that it ain’t really my business.
Especially given soj’s public statements that s/he wants to keep their privacy. I wouldn’t want people making assumptions about me publicly without my knowledge given how little they know about me.
But with intensive therapy and medical supervision Manny has been able to cut back to 19.5 hours/day.
you are a rank liar.
While I now can see where you got your impression this happened, you go on to to say you recollect this ad, and that it appeared, disappeared, had some relationship to the server problem etc.
Bullshit.
No ad was ever entered into my blogad account for Soj’s website. Niether of them. It was never streamed here, or mirrored at BT. EVER. You are just making that up.
Moreover, the server crashed for over 6 hours, which meant that we had to do a restore that lost something like 200 new users. We lost all data from that period. But it had no effect on advertising. It had nothing to do with blogad’s server. That theory is retarded.
You are just lying.
My brain hurts. We have an attorney and respected blogger under a great deal of stress in LA, arguing with a philosopher and respected blogger under a great deal of stress in PA, in a pissing match in a public forum.
The saying in our family was: “testa dura”. “Hard head”.
So here’s the deal, and I want it in writing:
In lieu of the above recommended arbitration procedure, and given the wide range of comments by the community supporting both parties, removal – not deletion – of this diary will likewise serve the community interest.
So much rancor, so much ill-will. How to make a grown man cry? Wake up to this diary @ five o’clock in the morning. Bejeebus you two.
I have a headache after reading this and I’m not sure that I understand it. I don’t have any recollection of this incident. (which says more about me than anyting else.) Why it has taken all this time to come to this remains unclear. But BooMan, it’s your site, you pay the bills, end of story.
Here are all my ads from the time period. Any ad from Soj would have been with an amount of $0.00. As you can see there is indeed an ad for $0.00 submitted on June 6th. I show the expanded text for that ad after this:
blog-tech Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – This automatic notification is sent out to let you know that a new ad has been submitted to ‘Booman Tribune’. ID: 3249449 Duration: 1w Amount: $70.00 submit date … Jul 21
blog-tech Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – This automatic notification is sent out to let you know that a new ad has been submitted to ‘Booman Tribune’. ID: 3245480 Duration: 1w Amount: $85.00 submit date … Jul 11
blog-tech Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – This automatic notification is sent out to let you know that a new ad has been submitted to ‘Booman Tribune’. ID: 3244887 Duration: 1w Amount: $85.00 submit date … Jul 8
blog-tech Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – This automatic notification is sent out to let you know that a new ad has been submitted to ‘Booman Tribune’. ID: 3244646 Duration: 2w Amount: $145.00 submit date … Jul 7
blog-tech Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – This automatic notification is sent out to let you know that a new ad has been submitted to ‘Booman Tribune’. ID: 3244493 Duration: 2w Amount: $0.00 submit date … Jul 6
blog-tech (3) Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune * Hold until 07/01/05 * – This automatic notification is sent out to let you know that a new ad has been submitted to ‘Booman Tribune’. ID: 3243879 Duration: 1w Amount: $85.00 submit date … Jul 1
blog-tech (2) Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – This automatic notification is sent out to let you know that a new ad has been submitted to ‘Booman Tribune’. ID: 3243484 Duration: 1w Amount: $85.00 submit date … Jun 30
blog-tech Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – This automatic notification is sent out to let you know that a new ad has been submitted to ‘Booman Tribune’. ID: 3242553 Duration: 2w Amount: $160.00 submit date … Jun 27
a new ad has been submitted to ‘Booman Tribune’.
ID: 3244493
Duration: 2w
Amount: $0.00
submit date: 2005/07/06
Owner e-mail: admin@boomantribune.com
Ad title: ‘Starting an Organization? Do It Right’
Ad text:
——————-
BooMan’s attorney
——————-
adstrip management url (works once you have logged into your blogads account):
As all Tribbers can tell you, that was an ad I submitted for my attorney. Care to keep lying?
the blogads log you have posted is for June 27 through July 21 and not the period between June 6 and June 14. The first and second week of June are the one’s that are in question.
I stand by my recollection.
Unfortunately the price does not display for this time period in my mail description, so I will display all ads, and then drill down for the time period: (to get this to display I have to do it in plain text. My apologies for how hard it is to read.
info (2) Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – … Energy Bill Now! adstrip management url (works once you have logged into your blogads account): http://www.blogads.com/benjocppnbousjcvofdpn … Jun 15
info Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune ** Hold until 06/13/2005 ** – … b></b> adstrip management url (works once you have logged into your blogads account): http://www.blogads.com … Jun 13
info Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – … at Amazon.com. adstrip management url (works once you have logged into your blogads account): http://www.blogads.com/benjocppnbousjcvofdpn … Jun 13
info Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – … Monday’ Ad text: adstrip management url (works once you have logged into your blogads account): http://www.blogads.com … Jun 11
info Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – … other own sins. adstrip management url (works once you have logged into your blogads account): http://www.blogads.com/benjocppnbousjcvofdpn … Jun 7
info Inbox New ad submitted to Booman Tribune – … spur them on. adstrip management url (works once you have logged into your blogads account): http://www.blogads.com/benjocppnbousjcvofdpn … May 25
————————————————
ID: 3240193
Duration: 1w
Amount: $90.00
submit date: 2005/06/15
Owner e-mail: dbell@foe.org
Ad title: ‘Doing the Nuclear Hustle ‘
Ad text:
——————-
Boogie down with Nuke Retro and all of those radioactive hits: the Chernobyl Hustle, Mutation Nation, and Melt It on Down!
Don’t let George Bush waste billions to bring back nuclear power.
Stop the Bush Energy Bill Now!
ID: 3239863
Duration: 1w
Amount: $50.00
submit date: 2005/06/13
Owner e-mail: busselle@gmail.com
Ad title: ‘We want you!’
** Please do not run this ad before 06/13/2005! **
Ad text:
——————-
<b>Attention job-seekers! </b>Looking for a way to really make a difference? Apply now for Deep Throat II. <br><br> If you like espionage, whistleblowing, and wiretaps, this is the position for you! <br><b><i> www.ThinkBlueDems.com</i><b></b></b>
ID: 3239739
Duration: 1w
Amount: $50.00
submit date: 2005/06/13
Owner e-mail: manticeye@direcway.com
Ad title: ‘A Film That Won’t Let You Forget’
Ad text:
——————-
"USA The Movie is emotionally intense, intellectually intriguing and profoundly disturbing in surprising and unconventional ways." Dion Dennis Ph.D. Exclusively at Amazon.com.
D: 3245480
Duration: 1w
Amount: $85.00
submit date: 2005/07/11
Owner e-mail: info@votelouise.com
Ad title: ‘Demand an Audit!’
Ad text:
——————-
Demand that Congress create a Truman Commission to audit all financial & military transactions related to the war in Iraq so we can finally learn how more than $9 billion has been lost or stolen there. <a href="http://www.votelouise.com/blogad1b">CLICK HERE</a>
ID: 3238922
Duration: 1m
Amount: $165.00
submit date: 2005/06/07
Owner e-mail: kittylover@gmail.com
Ad title: ‘Fish Wars on Cars’
Ad text:
——————-
Ring of Fire’s Darwin fish started the fish wars on cars more than a decade ago and now you have even more ways to poke fun at religious wingnuts with our new chrome fish emblems.
We also have Bush soap (washes away the lies of the Bushites) and Holy Soap to wash away those other own sins.
ID: 3236894
Duration: 2w
Amount: $0.00
submit date: 2005/05/25
Owner e-mail: patton@frontierpac.org
Ad title: ‘Join Frontier PAC’
Ad text:
——————-
Let’s <a href="http://frontierpac.org/blog.html">March That Donkey West</a>, with a serious values message for key voters in Western states.
It’s time for Western-state Democrats to fight on real populist issues–like <a href="http://frontierpac.org/energy.html">Energy Independence</a> and <a href="http://frontierpac.org/wage.html">Wal-Mart</a>. Help <a href="http://frontierpac.org/"><b>Frontier PAC</b></a> spur them on.
Jesus, I am having a hard time with this. This is the correct 6/11 ad. The Ad title is ‘Coming Monday’ and it was this that announced the Europeant Tribune launch:
This automatic notification is sent out to let you know that
a new ad has been submitted to ‘Booman Tribune’.
ID: 3239612
Duration: 1w
Amount: $0.00
submit date: 2005/06/11
Owner e-mail: admin@boomantribune.com
Ad title: ‘Coming Monday’
Ad text:
——————-
——————-
This isn’t in the spirit of this site. Or its one rule: “Dont’ be a prick.”
You’ve made your points. To continue to haranque Jerome on his highly worthwhile diaries at DKos is not only unproductive, it’s also distracting to the wider audience. While in the end, it’ll be you who probably is received with less favor, you’ll have drained the goodwill, the time, the energy of some very good people. is that a worthwhile endeavor? No.
Jerome’s diaries should not serve as a venue for those intent on haranquing him. To strangers reading the comments section, it’ll just make all of us look like a bunch of malcontents.
There was no ad. If you don’t like anything else about the issue, that is your right. But it is plain wrong to distract an audience for important diaries.
It’s so disappointing.
You are aware that you’re asking Boo to prove a negative, right? Kindly produce some evidence showing that the ad was actually run here. Be aware that you need to produce server logs, screenshots, and a copy of the actual ad image in order to do this. Perhaps in the future, you should avoid posting absurd accusations (does this qualify as libel?) without making sure you have enough proof to back up your claims.
I’ve stopped beating MY wife. Can YOU say the same?
but I did prove it. I showed every ad I ran in sequence and there is no ad for soj. Period.
And given the level of detail in his description, and in his email on the 15th of June, it is clear he has been lying since the beginning. Let’s ask why.
“I am actively supporting the owner (soj) of a sex site in a region where sex sites are basically used for human traffickeering”
That´s what Welshman is accusing me of. I am only saying that he is smearing me. Are you saying that there is some validity to his accusation?
The issue of soj posting on ET in June was decided publicly on BT after soj’s diary and subsequent explanations, which Booman and me chose to believe and Welshman chose not to. He dissociated himself from the site. Case closed.
But this is something else together. This is a pretty damn serious accusation to make, 5 momths after the spat and with no new information that I know of.
Take your stand – do you agree that there is any validity to the accusation that I am (we are) supporting sex slave rings by featuring soj on eurotrib?
that they have never once in this whole thing ever backed off an accusation when confronted with evidence that refutes them. If they were honestly mistaken they would say something like “oh, well, my recollection must be wrong, I stand corrected, however…”
their failure to engage in an honest rehashing of the events as they unfolded shows clearer than anything else what they are up to.
It’s disgusting.
SOJ wrote a diary that appeared on Booman about her Romanian dating site. There was never an ad on Booman. At least I never saw one, and I was on the site a lot when this happened.
Jeez- all this going on and I had no idea. Doesn’t matter really because BooMan has built up such a huge cache of credibility that anyone with common sense would dismiss these claims. Sounds like the accusers have no sense of honor.
Several people appear to be alleging that the absinthe lady is not Romanian at all.
Spot on as usual, DTF: I too have raised my eyebrows over the absinthe woman. But of course, that’s not selling sex, it’s using sex to sell absinthe… I think the ad says that she is what you and I will get if she is carefree and uninhibited while we are awake and energised… wonder if there’s any record of how many female users click on the ad?
the message of the ad is that ladies who wish to acquire an ample bosom should drink absinthe, and of course there are always a few internet wags who start rumors that this will enhance their prospects of being loved in Romania.
If anyone remembers seeing the LIR ad being run here just say so. If anyone remembers Soj posting about it at ET just say it. If anyone remembers Jerome saying that we should promote the site at ET just say it. If any of these allegations are remembered by anyone just say it.
Because they are all lies. And it is very ironic that this mafia would tell these lies about me and about Jerome when they are supposed to be protesting alleged lies by someone else.
It’s not my fault that Welshman’s site isn’t getting enough attention for his community. That is no reason to hijack Jerome’s diaries and tell lies about him.
You are absolutely right, Booman, as so many of us have already stated in comments all over this thread
It’s a pack of lies and despicable allegations, a thinly veiled smear campaign. I should be advocating diplomacy, but I believe that you should not back down. You’ve held your position very well.
You are absolutely right, Booman, as so many of us have already stated in comments all over this thread
It’s a pack of lies and despicable allegations, a thinly veiled smear campaign. I should be advocating diplomacy, but I believe that you should not back down. You’ve held your position very well.
Sorry for the double post.
Funny thing is … this one on ET is so much better. It took awhile to figure out what the hell the ad on BMT was selling.
Eh,
For what its worth, Boo, considering who you’re arguing with and where you’re doing it, its a waste of time to worry about it further.
It might be interesting to hear if The Blog Lord feels bad about what his users are saying about you for a change. Don’t feel bad if he doesn’t actually give a damn, tho.
And if anything good comes out of this, I hope its the confirmation that this community cares about Booman.
For all the silly scraps we do have over here, its comforting to recall how better it is here than elsewhere.
(and after this diary, can we please put to rest the “if it happened over there, don’t blog about it over here” line of thought. If something matters to a Booman Tribune member, let em post it. Like Booman just did. It’ll either get traction or get ignored — seems simple enough.)
What I wanna know is why did Jerome FP this story on BMT and not come back once to discuss it?
I got kind of distracted by the brouhaha in the dKos thread (and was at work).
This type of “explanation” is more an embarrasment than whatever embarrassed/pissed him off in the first place. I dont know who Soj is or really care, unless she is actually Milan Kundera or Count Dracula using a nom de plume.
Maybe Koss is right to stay above the fray and never(or infrequently) reply no matter what.
Speaking as an occassional reader/contributor- about the Absinthe ad–I dont G. a S. I see that much bosom somewhere just about every day of my life. Frankly, sex doesnt make me buy beer (although the close up promise of sex makes me DRINK beer)much less absinthe, my total knowledge of which comes from reading old stale Hemingway novels as a kid. Who cares? Soembody trying to make some money? Duh…
I read Vanity Fair, and its so overstuffed with advertising for shit that I would never buy that I cant never seem to find the two good articles per month they run. Everybody seems to accept a (clashing multiple)perfumed magazine that basically sucks AND they pay at the newsstand for it. At least blogs are free.
Relax Boo. Save your temper for 2006 and 2008 when it will really matter. Stay off that other site altogether is my advice, in opposition to Yaright above.. NEVER POST THERE, change BT from being a koss clone and branch out, is my advice. You have nothing to lose but your anger. You might even gain your own identity, and successfully separate yourself from the koss monster.
Besides, I thought you were moving this weekend and offline?
Dude, it might be time to look into that new 12 step program for internet addiction…..
I dont know who Soj is or really care
Hence, you should not have commented.
doesn’t even know who HE is but that doesn’t stop him from commenting….
😉
but it’s really difficult when suddenly all this drivel and invective appears. The “I have a real life, so that’s why I came here to call you all loser clones” approach doesn’t work for me. Funny that.
Maybe I’d better take my own advice and stop commenting for today.
I’m going to the cafe, want to join me?
You’re the best. Thanks.
It appears that you should seek help as well. Good luck to you.
* backs away slowly *
TOO LATE! You have been caught.
And as long as you are here, can I point you over here where Man Eegee is trying to get your attention?
Just look for the people talking about you behind your back in the comments… (lol jk… But seriously, go look damnit!)
Boo, you have been about as transparent as it is possible to be in this situation. How many times, how much data do you have to haul out, how many of us (including me) have to say, there was no ad?
I was reading the Trib here very closely at that point, trying to get a fix on how to spend my limited time. I saw Soj’s diary with her own reference to her business, and found it strangely inconsistent with her blogging persona and writing. But this was clearly not a BT or ET ad, or I would never have spent a minute here afterward.
I think this folks have gotten all of the time they deserve and a lot that they do not!
I’m glad I missed all this drama when it originally occured, except of course I’d be able to remember what happened and nowpost a scathing riposte to the crusading dissemblers.
My sense here is that I see nothing in the referred to posts by the purported Welshman, (I hope my own Welsh ancestors are blissfully unaware of this brouhaha), or the dactyl person that provides evidence of their accusations. Nothing!
I do see many comments supporting Booman’s and Jerome’s position.
So, since I believe in the principle of innocence until guilt is proven, I’d say to the accusers; “If you aren’t presenting verifiable evidence to back up your claims, shut the fuck up and take your shabby vitriol somewhere else.
I read every word (I think) of the debate/dispute.
There Was No Ad.
There was a diary. By soj. When s/he returned, s/he made several hurt/angry comments about the bru-ha-ha and then deleted the diary.
No Ad.
I can claim to be the first person on this site to have (albeit very diplomatically) questioned Soj about LIR. Given my understanding of Soj’s world view from her diaries and Flogging the Simian, I was completely taken aback when she diaried at BT that she had started LIR. It also made me wonder if she was a he.
IIRC I was one of the first few commenters on her LIR diary. Others were offering congratulations. So I proceeded very tactfully. Others waded in with much blunter (and judgemental) remarks.
I cannot recall any blogads. I do recall the ad embedded in Soj’s diary, and on her own blog.
Frankly, I have found Soj’s behaviour a bit curious. Her disappearance (with farewells) and then reappearance within days is the major example (apart from LIR). But I am willing to see and accept a reasonable explanation for this in that she needs to lie low and doesn’t want her identity revealed. I am particularly saddened if it was/is Welshman that she feared.
Many members of this community and the wider left blogosphere are probably not what they first appear. Some may be living a fantasy life, and others conceal their identity due to the mismatch between their politics and their employment or country of residence.
What matters most to me is that Soj is a great writer and provides a valuable service which distills information that most of us would otherwise not receive.
So I’m going to keep right on reading Soj’s great work, rather than paying attention to the personal attacks against her.
BooMan, I have incredible respect and admiration for you and your site. Please do not annihilate me for this post!
To qualify myself a bit, I’m a lawyer in my 50s. I’m also an Internet pioneer, since I launched a web site in 1995 that is now by far the number one site in its field. I was the designer, system programmer, president, everything. I sold it in 1999.
I have actually spent the last 90 minutes reading the long thread you linked above, all the way through, following most of the internal links.
Here are my conclusions:
–And here the officious intermeddler departs. You brought this up, BooMan!
–Arminius, great hero of the ancient Germans.
There are two aspects to this:
The first is about Soj. Is Soj a man, or a woman. She never says explicitly. Yet, if you correspond with Soj, read her daily, look at the language, there are many hints that she is female. Almost everyone assumes she is female. You are an exception. On the other hand, Welshman’s researchers have found a few pieces of evidence that can lead one to believe otherwise. Other than the picture at Soj’s site, Soj has never claimed to be a woman. So it is a non-issue for me.
She has also claimed other things, including that she worked at the DHS. That may be true or it may not be. I don’t know. I also don’t much care.
Some people seem to care a tremendous amount, but they really only care about either a) a competition with European Tribune, or b) they don’t like the Loving in Romania site and want to do anything they can to expose the person behind it.
That is all this is. You can see for yourself what they did yesterday. They pretended to be criticizing Soj, but were in fact systematically rewriting history to undermine Jerome’s credibility to write about women’s issues. To do this they tried to implicate him in supporting the Loving in Romania site, promoting it long after it was deleted, and then covering it up by selected deletions. None of it was true. And they knew it wasn’t true. It was done to tear Jerome down and for no other reason. Do not be deceived that this was about Soj. It was not.
Yes, I completely agree with your bottom line here. I guess that makes me complicit in agreeing at all with some of their comments. Sorry.
In particular, I agree that their ultimate result was to undermine Jerome’s fine diary against prostitution. Why would they do that, especially since they claim to be speaking mainly from a fury against prostitution. It was a hall of mirrors.
Thank you for your civil reply.
This is a mysterious event. The more I read, the more I felt I didn’t really understand what was going on. The more I felt like that, the more I read. Maybe it would have been better for me not to have commented. Sorry.
your points were fair.
They do have some points. They feel (however genuinely is disputable) that we should take their evidence as conclusive and that we should kick Soj off or ET. And if we don’t then we have no credibility to write about women’s issues or rights.
However, that is not all they argued. Instead they argued that we had supported her dating site and didn’t care about it and they created a false chronology of events thinking we would be too lazy to dispute it.
Why would they do that if it was only about the truth and about a defunct dating site? They wouldn’t.
This was an attack on Jerome and nothing else, and I won’t stand for it.
And for the record, Armando told Welshman to stop this nonsense. So, put that in the Big Armnado’s column. He’s a stand up guy and he knows bullshit when he sees it, even if he can’t be expected to know all the details here.
I have often dumped on Armando, but you’re right, he was definitely calling bullshit here, and correctly.
Thank you again for your civil reply. I feel like I’m in a civilized and beautiful area of DKOS-land, before the pandemic, or something like that.
For what it’s worth, one reason I have some sympathy for Welshman’s diatribes, despite my disapproval of the way he has made them, is that I’m an immigration lawyer who has represented many desperate women from eastern Europe. I had a prospective client one time, an extremely erudite double-Ph.D. woman professor in her 40s from southern Russia, who married a 60 year old American cab driver with bad teeth, no education, and a serious drinking problem who happened to be the first American man she ran into after getting her first visa to travel to the United States. And in the process, she abandoned a husband and children in Russia. That was the worst I’ve seen, but I’ve seen many, many permutations on that theme.
Naturally it is true that people fall in love and marry, and many eastern European women find true love with American husbands. I’ve represented many such couples, and some of them have become my dearest friends.
But it is also true that desperate eastern European women (I’m concentrating on that region here, but this is also true for other parts of the world, of course) will often do ANYTHING to get to the United States.
There have recently been some cases where American men married eastern European women, pledged to support them as part of the immigration procedures, the women got their green cards and immediately left their American husbands, and then sued for permanent financial support, and courts held that the men had signed solemn contracts and were on the hook! Search on “Stump v. Stump.”
Sorry if this goes off-topic. I mean this to say that I agree with the criticism of Soj’s dating site. I think it is jevil to offer desparate eastern European women for sale to American men, not only for the women but also for the men.
But as I said, I completely agree with you, BooMan, on your bottom line. Thank you for letting me have this forum to speak.
jevil = just plain evil
He he
claim she was selling anyone and they are delusional. The rest of your post I fully understand.
does this have to do with Jerome’s posting about prostitution? Seriously. This is so goddamn lame and ridiculous it’s offensive.
I remember Soj’s post. I remember going “huh?” at the time. But I also know a little about what women, or men, in the eastern bloc countries are going through and if by chance one of them happens to meet a guy online from America, or anywhere else in the world, takes a fancy to them and decides to pursue a future how is that ANYONE’s goddamn business? For fucks sake, was Soj offering these women to the highest bidder? NO. It’s a site like any other.
Was it in poor taste perhaps? Maybe, to each his or her own. BooMan wasn’t comfortable with it and decided against offering her/ him the space to advertise. End of story. Did that mean Soj stopped participating in ET? ummm… no. So making slanderous accusations against Jerome, Boo and Soj is fucking pathetic.
For what it’s worth, I do remember the ad running on the site for like a day. But then again, I could have seen it at FTS or in Soj’s diary since I didn’t take a goddamn screenshot of the site at the time. And even if it did… SO FUCKING WHAT. Boo decided it wasn’t his cup of tea and didn’t continue (or start since my memory is a bit fuzzy and I certainly can’t prove it did run). That is integrity folks. And that is why so many people here have jumped to Boo & Jerome’s defense. Because he does care. And he does seek input.
You know why the absinthe ad is still running… because we as a community answered Boo’s question about if it offended us and said.. meh, it’s typical advertising, she ain’t spread eagle on a car or anything and you need to make a living… so thanks for asking, but go for it. Jeebus freakin’ Buddha, if only most other blog owners would seek that kind of feedback and respect it.
So back to my point… how the fuck does this have anything to do with Jerome’s concerns about women? It doesn’t.
And show me one posting where Soj disrespects women. I’ve been reading his/ her blog for over a year and she/ he is a truth seeker. You doubt her street creds assholes? Go for it. Put yourself on the line like she has and then come back and talk. Have you read her posts on Jack Idema? Or torture? Fuck you.
And yeah Welshman, I remember your hurt feelings when Jerome got on the reco list with his take on the EU elections and how you called him “elitist” & just had to have your diary up there to prove how much the French sucked (which was your whole point if I recall correctly… but hey, you can prove me wrong with some actual FACTS vs. slander as you are doing to Soj) … perhaps this whole episode shows more about your character than you intended.
and I want to reiterate this post for the record. I am going to fix a couple of my typos for clarity:
You have not disputed my accusations, nor have you corrected repeated inaccurate statements.
You said this to Jerome: “You initially agreed to his advertising it on your site and you responded on that basis on the now deleted thread on European Tribune.” Jerome was in the hospital that night. He agreed to nothing. There is no deleted thread at ET.
and this:
“To not deny what Soj has said or done and just to pretend that Soj did not promote the dating agency on European Tribune” Soj never promoted the dating agency on ET.
and this:
“Simply removing evidence of Soj pushing the desirabilty of Romanian women because of their povertyin order to make money,whilst supporting the writer of these miserable comments does not in itself remove your association especially as you continue to defend and promote this riter.” Jerome never removed anything.
and this:
“I have checked…you are right. The Love in Romania site has disappeared, just as the original thread on European Tribune disappeared. Does this not tell you something, Jerome?
It is like shredding papers and deleting tape recordings in the White House!” More lies. There was no thread at ET.
and this:
“My understanding is that Soj started the dating site with another bloke. Regardless, a deal was done with Booman that the site could be advertised on European Tribune by Soj, until I pointed out its content.” Regardless of what? You well know that I didn’t make a deal but a friendly offer, and that I rescinded it immediately when you pointed out the FAQ at her site.
and this:
“Your memory is wrong. The diary was written on European Tribune on its first day that it went live. Strangely, the day before the Pie fight on DKos. The advertisement was shown in the body of the diary. It was on this diary that I commented. The embarrassment of that diary led to its removal from European Tribune.” Complete fabrication. Total bullshit. You addressed this to Jerome, BTW, and it would be meaningless if you had accurately noted that ET didn’t even exist yet and the diary ran at BT.
and this, after I pointed out that ET didn’t exist and the diary could not have been posted there:
“It was removed. I have a partial copy if you would like me to post it. I’m glad you were only “tempted” :)” How can you have a partial copy of a diary that doesn’t exist? Where is it. Produce it.
and this:
“Polydactyl has posted the details of what appeared on the European Tribune site. I’m afraid that it was not as distanced as you recall (and it seems a very long time ago now so my own memory is not that good!).” Nothing appeared there. Polydactl is a complete liar, and so are you as should be evident to all by now.
and this:
“The ad was provided free…in exchange for Soj becoming a front-pager. And it did appear on ET, I’m afraid.” You know damn well I didn’t make an exchange. I made a friendly offer, the same I made to pastordan. There was no quid pro quo. You are a liar.
You should be banned.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:45:53 PM EST
for the whole time.And I never get into these things,BUT–
Let me say,that I have been reading Soj since her original diaries at kos,if she is a him ,so what? Good writer/researcher.
Did see the rather rude post by Welshman in Jerome’s diary–off topic and personal, I do not like that at all.
I saw the link in soj’s original diary, there was NO AD.
The LIR site is reprehensible and tacky. Don’t know what on earth spurred that idea,and to link to it on a liberal blog,was sure to ignite a firestorm. Stupid at best.
There was quite a brouhaha at NIT at the time.
But to bring all this up now-and to keep beating it into the ground all over the place,I truly don’t get it.
Jerome’s and Booman’s integrity are both impeccable,as are their support for women and women’s rights.
The END.
I am travelling today and only have a few momemts on the computer, so here´s the thing:
Welshman has been semi-stalking me on my dkos diaries, “speaking truth to power” as he puts it, accusing me of being an interested party when I write about wind (or France or Europe), making snide remarks, and bringing up regularly the soj thing. It’s annoying, but I can take it.
Yesterday, he basically wrote that I should not write about women and prostitution because I had no credibility on the topic because I was actively supporting the owner (soj) of a sex site in a region where sex sites are basically used for human traffickeering – said owner being a mythomaniac with a troubled past and dubious friends. This was, of course, a friendly warning so that my credibility, and that of ET, would not be lost to that sorry character.
I replied politely to him that I disagreed; his New International Times gang (polydactyl, Librairian and another name which escapes me right now) then added more stuff about soj, not of it conclusive in anyway, but accompanied by increasingly shrill accusations.
That´s when I started calling it a smear and others came in to fight that smear.
I suspect that Welshman is simply jealous of the success of ET and of the attention I garner on dKos. Tough. He was part of the team at ET and left og his own volition. He could have been welcomed back in for a bit of time, until he started basically stalking him. Now I will ignore him or consider alternative action if he starts again posting such hateful stuff.
As to my positions on women and prostitution, I think my writing (and editorial choices) speaks for itself and I will stqnd by that.
As to soj, she is a valuable contributor to ET through her posts and I have no comment to make on the rest of her life, about which I know almost nothing.
Thanks to all those that have supported us in this needless, but painful, spat.
First I’ll take exception to the New International Times ‘gang’. While currently not a regular poster there, I was during the time of this entire debaucle. I was also at dKos during the same time.
I have watching this appalling snit go on for a long time. The flame wars that periodically go on means that all 3 have taken this damn thing too far.
To publicly call each liars – well isn’t that where the troll ratings get tossed in? The entire premise is to not get into personal attacks. Perhaps the British royal family has it right….ignore it, it will go away. To quote Tom Clancy in some book…”if it’s not written down it didn’t happen.”
Let it go…move on…enjoy your successes.
Time for me to walk away from all bogging for a few days while this latest flame war settles down. This is so old…and is now an inside story that has to be explained to so many newbies. It is now an ongoing rehash.
Nobody wins this fight…everyone looks like kids saying “he started it”.
Sorry – you all have pissed me off this time.
Boo’s stated repeatedly here that he’d be more than glad to drop it if these people would stop lying about him. They refuse to. The ball’s in their court, they are the ones at fault. They’re also doing nothing but smearing, by asking Boo to prove a negative, which is logically impossible.
Respectfully – when these things come up my recommendation is to make a succinct comment – that this is old history and politely decline the argument – without rehashing the details.
I’ve expressed my differences with Welshman on this at N.I.T. both in comments and private messages – many months ago. I lurk at E.T. not enough hours in the day and Jerome and Oui both post here. I lurk at N.I.T. again not enough hours in the day. I lurk and occasionally post at dKos. There is a lot of cross-over between the sites by posters and commenters.
These diaries have gone on and on…someone in a chat asked me about it last night…I told them to walk away from the diary. Don’t touch it with a 100 foot poll.
There are 4 sides to this story: Jerome’s, Booman’s, Welshman’s, and the truth. They are all correct and they are all wrong.
Respectfully – Jerome or Booman should state a single disagreement in the comments, reiterate that this is an old pissing match, and respectfully decline to re-engage.
Ah, so Booman and Jerome should shut up and let their detractors continue to smear their reputations unhindered? Because that works so well. Just look at what it did for President Kerry! Oh wait…
Bullshit. Produce a single piece of proof that Booman and Jerome (whose stories agree 100%) are lying. I haven’t seen a single piece of evidence in the liars’ favour. Just waving your hands and saying “Oh, well, we’ll never know if Booman was at fault” is nothing more than an attempt to get him to stop defending himself and mire the issue without resolution. With the net effect, of course, of leaving his reputation besmirched.
Booman’s produced substantial evidence showing that Welshman and his lackies are lying. Welshman and his lackies haven’t produced a single piece of evidence. No screenshots. No server logs. Not even a copy of the ad in question. Just nebulous accusations that it was there and Booman deleted all evidence – including, apparently, the memories of many of his readers.
The reputation that is currently occuring in the blogosphere by those that have not delved into the details is that this is a “flame war”. The reputations that are going to impact all three are (1) their ongoing diaries and comments and blogs and (2) that they can’t stand each other and that flame wars follow them.
I’ve stated my position on this argument. It is obvious that there are different perceptions here and we are not going to agree.
Respectfully decline to further engage.
But, the blog ad is really a side show to the central point that was addressed. Memory may be faulty on a number of things and it is probably wisest to leave those things alone. But let’s not misrepresent the central thrust of Welshman’s argument, which is that soj is a featured writer, and he has written things, which are extant, that are arguably very degrading to women. (I’ll own the statement. I find them degrading.) I’m not going to take sides in this internal feud between Booman, Jerome, and Welshman. There is a lot happening there that I don’t think is any of my business, but I do need to take a stand for accuracy. Welshman’s point, as I understood it, had to do with a front page writer who has a very dodgy history when it comes to respect for women.
That´s what Welshman is accusing me of. I am only saying that he is smearing me. Are you saying that there is some validity to that accusation?
As you say, the low level warfare and sniping is best ignored, and I have never raised it publicly. But this is something else together. This is a pretty damn serious accusation to me make.
Take your stand – do you agree that there is any validity to the accusation that I am (we are) supporting sex slave ringgs by featuring soj on eurotrib?
When the original diary by Soj appeared I was outraged and offended. In checking further into Soj’s web site, there was insufficient information as to credibility of the writer. Subsequent reading of Soj’s work has equally offended me and I know longer read any his/her diaries.
There were a lot of accusations on all sides and then the diary disappeared. No further information was forthcoming from Soj either defending or refuting the discussions.
My positions:
(1) Welshman needs to let this go – and I have told him so privately and publicly. He still retains the right to make his comments known on his blog and whereever he chooses to make them. When he makes comments similar to the one you highlighted, he needs to provide facts, not assertions.
(2) European Tribune and you can have anyone as front pagers or participants, and you retain editorial control. Not everyone agrees with all diaries. It is not the purpose of blogs to confirm or deny credibility of information, but to provide a forum for information.
(3) Booman is a respected leader in the blogosphere. His loyalty to the blog participants and partners / friends is one of the things that brings many of us here. He has the same rights to editorial control as I mentioned for E.T.
(4) Since almost all of us came from DailyKos, the diaries there are the source of the cross-fire. Lots of collateral damage comes out of this.
(5) Since Soj is at the center of the controversy and has not chosen to participate my perception is there is some accuracy to the Welshman’s assertions. My perception: Soj is playing the blogosphere – and has remained silent throughout. Having lots of friends in the law enforcement business my perceptions are tainted by a presumption that by letting you and Booman defend the work, without input, there is some level of guilt by Soj.
So I’m saying:
– Let Soj defend the original accusation with facts and links.
– Let Soj take the heat and step up to take you and Booman out of the middle.
– Let the pissing match on DailyKos go on without you. Tell Welshman to provide facts with links and let the blogosphere decide.
So…if you feel I am taking sides, feel free to ban me from any sites…Booman or E.T. If Welshman is reading this…he is also free to ban me from his site.
I am an active participants in some areas and an observer in others. As I asserted in an earlier comment, no one wins with the continuing engagement of this fight.
State your case, ask for facts, and then walk away.
Your position would be fair, but “insufficient information” does not cut it. Do you support, or not, the accusation that I support sex rings?
I mean – your summary is fair.
You need to take a stqnd on whether Welshman´s word are a smear or not.
I have stated my position in my comment and feel I have insufficient information.
I respectfully decline to take sides.
Please feel free to take whatever action you feel is necessary to my user access at European Tribune. Login name is the same there.
See my response just below to brinnainne. You ARE taking sides.
need to take a stand??
I am going to keep asking you this.
Here’s Welshman’s comment that started this whole flap. Read it for yourself, but see the following extracts:
Then in the next comment (in response to my calm, reasoned, response) he added this:
and then (again in response to my own reply):
Through innuendo, conflation of unrelated facts, and outright factual errors (if not lies), he is saying that I am condoning sex trafficking. Maybe you will not see it that way, but to me that was just the last straw in a long list of snide attacks in my dKos diaries, most of which I have ignored or tried to respond to politely.
Now, all I am asking from SallyCat and others is simply: “I have seen no evidence that you are supporting or tolerating or condoning any sex trade”. I am not asking her to say I am not doing it, just that nothing shows that I am. Refusing this means that she – and others – are giving credence to that slur, and thus perpetuating it.
If I may say so, this is exactly the kind of moral relativism that we have seen with despair in the US media with regards to allegations that Kerry faked his injuries or did not deserve his decorations: it’s just a “he said, she said” story, in which we should not take part
Welshman says: Jerome condones prostitution.
I say: Welshman is smearing me.
Sally Cat says: silly boys arguing about who started it.
Sally Cat is complicit in the smear in refusing to say that there is no reason whatsoever to believe it.
Jerome, this is beneath you. You have taken a number of statements out of context and cobbled them together, which we are supposed to accept form an unspoken accusation. Then you have the effrontery to accuse Welshman of “innuendo, conflation of unrelated facts?” Pot calling the kettle what, now? What here is factually inaccurate? You do not explain, as if making the assertion is enough. What lies, exactly? You’re going to have to connect the mysterious dots of this “accusation” better than this, if I’m to accept that you have been so accused.
I heard what you said about soj. I disagree with you about the intent in Welshman’s words, having been on the receiving end of too many of his comments in recent months. He is too smart and too good a writer not to know what he is doing, so I am definitely taking it personally.
At this point, I choose to disengage from this debate. Jerome, I have continued to this point solely out of my respect for you and Booman.
Based on the concluding statements of your comment, I shall have to rethink where I stand on my personal, not professional, respect for your writings.
That’s all I wanted to read. I have ne beef with your point 3. Sorry to have dragged you unwittingly into this.
It is too sad that it has come to the point, that without an assertion of support such as I wrote, we are therefore taking sides. The comment is quotable – in whole only.
I feel as though I have signed one of those Republican oaths…and need a hot, soapy shower to get clean.
It got personal and now it has changed the dynamics…and personally I do not necessarily think for the better.
I don’t feel especially proud of myself with this whole episode, but I did not want this particular spat to go unnoticed. And neither did Martin.
All I can add is “This too shall pass”
Don’t sweat the small stuff Booman. And in the big picture this is small stuff. You’ve got more important things to worry about.
Take care.
Boo and Jerome,
I can’t say it any better than Steven D, so I’ll just echo his comment.
I read the diaries early last night over at Big Orange and here and my heart sunk, and I decided to just let it rest overnight before saying something.
Sorry for your agita, but hopefully you’ve taken some comfort at the way we collectively called “bullshit” when you were unfairly maligned. Also (and forgive me if this isn’t the right time or place to say it) it just goes to show how easy it is for that “benzene” we were just discussing the other day to end up in the pond. 🙁
Boo, sending you best wishes for inner peace; you’ve got enough to deal with right now. Just let the negativity go; don’t let it corrode your heart. And give the real Boo a scratch behind the ears and a dog biscuit for all of us. Might be a good day to give it all a rest and take him for a long hike around the East and West River Drive loop (Now there’s something I really miss about Philly!). It does wonders to clear the mind of bullshit. 🙂
step one is done. All my wife’s stuff has left the building. I’m taking a little break now before I begin end-stage packing and cleaning.
I just want to clarify something though. Yes, this whole thing got started at DailyKos, but it is not a DailyKos fallout thing. This is fallout from the very creation of ET. It all goes back to the night that Soj posted that diary. What this is is Welshman trying to exact revenge for disagreements that we had behind the scenes that predated Soj’s diary. So the benzene is flowing not from Kos’s site, but from the New International Times. Since Jerome doesn’t post there and Welshman is banned from here, he chooses to stalk Jerome’s diaries the only place he can. It isn’t always about Soj. It’s often just snide comments. But that is all this is. And that is why I never bothered to engage him over Soj. He’s dishonest.
of you to avoid mentioning my name in all of this. But anyone who actually reads the thread will see that I made several comments regarding soj’s credibility. I stand by every one of them. I recommend that people read the entire thread, at least from Welshman’s comments forward, because what’s been said here does not accurately reflect the discussion that occurred.
As far as I recall, you confined your assertions to Soj and Soj’s actions, and did not make intentionally false allegations that were intended to destroy Jerome’s credibility. What I am pissed about is the lying about Jerome, which, of course, by its very nature, involved lies about me.
Again, Welshman’s actions have virtually nothing to do with Soj and almost everything to do with his insane desire to harm Jerome.
Absolutely true. I have no opinion on your internal disagreements. I don’t really understand what is going on between you. I like you all very much, and I don’t think this is any of my business. My concerns are entirely about soj’s credibility.
have an opinion over polydactl’s fake chronology?
And let’s be clear about something. No one remembers seeing the ad here or at ET except Welshman, Polydactl, and perhaps other members of NIT. Is there something about the brains of NIT members that makes them remember ads being posted days later then removed, etc.? No.
So, once you realize that they were spreading these lies within days of the pie fight, as they say this site booming, and the launch of ET, which was their direct rival, you begin to understand what is going on.
And when you go find things in google caches about Soj on Yahoo groups, etc., it makes one wonder whether it is Soj who put them there.
They have been on a jihad for months to uncover her true identity. Why? When Soj quit blogging because of these intrusions, they had a celebration at NIT. We, however, were saddened to lose such an eloquent voice and talent.
</rant>
I don’t have an opinion on the chronology. I’m not a terribly visual person, so I don’t trust my own memory of visual details. I’m one of those people who would have no idea what color a person’s tie was when they turned their back. Visual details aren’t my long suit. I remember seeing the ad more than I wanted to, but I can’t be more specific than that.
From where I was sitting, though, it looked to me like Welshman’s upset and disassociation from both sites was over soj’s writings on the Love in Romania site. I was here for that diary and the ensuing debate and Welshman struck me as genuinely upset at the way these Romanian women were being marketed by weight, attractiveness, and compliant nature. It was upsetting to me as well.
I’ve looked at New International Times, and it doesn’t strike me as being in competition with European Tribune. One is a blog taking ad revenue. The other is a message board and really just a gathering place. It doesn’t look like a business venture that would be any kind of genuine competition for European Tribune. I joined it a while back. I looked it over. It’s a little cumbersome to use, like most message boards. As far as them celebrating soj’s departure, I would take from that that they don’t like soj. I don’t think it’s based on any kind of competition.
Soj’s resignation was due to the intrusion of a family member with a 14 year old grudge, according to his writing. I don’t think it was because of their google searches, unless you know something I don’t. I’m just going by the public record.
In all honesty, Booman, I have to come down on the side of the folks at NIT, as far as their distrust of soj. Soj does not strike me as credible. I said so on that deleted diary, and I’m saying it now. That a person writes a good story is not proof of integrity. In fact, it can demonstrate the opposite. Again, Stephen Glass comes to mind. I’m afraid this soj business is going to be ultimately very damaging to the lefty blogosphere. To be honest, having observed this from the Love in Romania episode forward, it’s like watching a train wreck in slow motion.
that way from the outside. And I will stipulate one thing in Welshman’s favor. He was deeply troubled by the Loving in Romania site. However, having said that, he demanded that I publicly disown Soj from the site within hours, in the dead of night, while Soj was asleep and while Jerome was taking his son to the hospital. When I asked him to wait til morning, he drafted a long diary that revealed what was supposed to be secret, the launch of ET, and his disassociation from it. Either this, or another post he made a dKos caused (I firmly believe) the URL for europeantribune.com to be swiftly bought up by some enterprising individual. Oh, and this is after he launched NIT, using the excuse that we were taking too long to launch ET, which was entirely his fault for constantly throwing roadblocks in our consensus building and contractual negotiations. And then once he had lost us our URL, launched his own EuroKossack site, delayed our launch for 2 months, he publicly quit, questioned our character and tried to discredit Soj to the point that we (he hoped) would be left with only Jerome and Sirocco at launch. He then began accusing Soj of white slavery at NIT, engaging in wild speculations about sexual deviancy, went on a 6 month coordinated search to find Soj’s identity, and then began stalking Jerome’s diaries at DKos.
So, maybe that fills in the back picture.
I sometimes wonder if the bigwigs in the liberal blogosphere realise that their interpersonal relationships/business arrangements have taken on the complexity (not to mention the absurdity) of a Marx Brothers film?
It’s not personal, Sonny. It’s strictly business.–Michael Corleone, “The Godfather, Part I.”
Vivian Orkin: Oh, oh. Th-this is my friend Libby. She thinks you’re a genius. Libby just did a definitive cinematic study of Gummo Marx. She did!
Dick Lobel: Interestingly, he’s the one Marx brother that never made any movies.–“Stardust Memories”, a film by Woody Allen
“I am actively supporting the owner (soj) of a sex site in a region where sex sites are basically used for human traffickeering”
That´s what Welshman is accusing me of. I am only saying that he is smearing me. Are you saying that there is some validity to that accusation?
Soj´s life is a topic of obvious controversy. But this is something else together. This is a pretty damn serious accusation to me make.
Take your stand – do you agree that there is any validity to the accusation that I am (we are) supporting sex slave rings by featuring soj on eurotrib?
Jerome — I haven’t commented on this at all, here, there or anywhere, but this is the third time I have read this same comment, and I have to ask:
Where is the actual QUOTE of the accusation?
WHY is it important to you that we all “take a stand”?
And, most importantly to my mind (iif you pick only one questions to answer, plese let it be this one), do YOU think you are supporting sex slaves rings by featuring soj on ET?
Take your stand…
For heavens sakes you are beginning to sound like Armando… I beg of you… please do not lower yourself to that base level…
Jerome, please don’t order me about. It is up to me to determine what issues I choose to take a “stand” on. I will not take responsibility for another person’s words. What Welshman says and believes is up to him.
I will only take responsibility for my own words and beliefs and I have stated them. I don’t find soj credible. I find his words demeaning to women. I find his subterfuge about sex/gender manipulative. I found the “Love in Romania” site disturbing for it’s language and depiction of women. I find his claims of a law enforcement background overblown and misleading, and disrespectful to people who really wear the uniform. And I think his association with your site will ultimately damage you. Believe it or not, my concern in this is for you, and for anyone else who is invested in him emotionally or financially.
I am trying to convey. Jerome and I know as much as anyone else about Soj. We are aware of the controversy. We both have decided to stick with Soj. It’s our risk, and I am glad that you are concerned for us in taking those risks. Okay. Duly noted. I have zero problem with what you are saying.
I could write quite a defense of Soj if I wanted to. But this is not really about Soj. If I debate Soj I am playing into their schemes.
Okay? Two things.
Whether Soj is a man or a woman, a former intellgence officer or a former police clerk, she is not a slave trader. If we thought she was a slave trader we would have nothing to do with her. Obviously.
Second, this whole false chronology has been going on quietly for 6 months. The intent is to make us out as not only supporting slave trading but supporting her dating site. We immediately disasscociated ourselves from her dating site. They keep saying we didn’t.
So, all we are asking is that you see this slander for what it is.
I’m glad to know that you understand my concerns, and clearly have considered these issues. As far as the “false chronology” is concerned, I can’t really speak to that. I view the dispute between you and Welshman as a third-party observer and I don’t want to get into the thick of it. I honestly do hold all three of you in high regard. From the slice of this I’ve been unable to avoid, I can see mixture of truth and misperception in every one of your positions. That’s what happens when personalities collide and tempers flare. I’m in no position to call any of this slanderous. That’s a legal term and that’s outside my bailiwick.
I have no desire to force you into a dispute you want no part of. I do find it somewhat mystifying that my documented list of Welshman’s distortions and lies makes so little impression on you. And especially his non-responsiveness to my list. But don’t worry about it. To each his own.
It’s not that your account makes no impression. It’s that I don’t think I’m in a position to view it in a full, fair context. This is a conflagration. In order for me to form a judgment on all of this, I would need to see accounts from every party involved, hear point-counterpoint, and review the data that all of the comments relate to, in order to determine their veracity. That’s a lot of background work just to come to a fair conclusion on something that really is not my business.
Will it be held against me if I choose not to be informed of all this and rather trust you and others to be doing the right thing?
There won’t be a test on all of this in the near future will there?
“I have seen nothing that justifies saying that you support a sex trade ring” would be fair enough.
I’ll tell you what, Jerome. You show me a direct quote of Welshman accusing you of supporting a “sex trade ring,” and provide me with a link to it, and I’ll articulate an opinion on that accusation. Because if he made such a statement, I missed it.
I wrote about it upthread:
http://www.boomantribune.com/comments/2005/12/1/202253/705/119
Then I shall respond to it upthread.
“Take a stand”?
Choose sides?
You act as if there’s only two sides to this–Welshman’s and yours.
How about I vote for “none of the above”?
I suppose this will be the next edict:
Esposito: From this day on, the official language of San Marcos will be Swedish. Silence! In addition to that, all citizens will be required to change their underwear every half-hour. Underwear will be worn on the outside so we can check. Furthermore, all children under 16 years old are now… 16 years old!
Fielding Mellish: What’s the Spanish word for straitjacket?
–from “Bananas”, a film by Woody Allen
Oh, please.
I read the thread on DKos, the one here, and there are so many issues to be sorted out I can’t even begin to do so–if I had the ambition to untangle the Gordian Knot of relations betwixt you, Welshman, and Booman.
Want to know something? I don’t give a shit about this private feud between you, Booman, and Welshman.
The original issue–whether or not SoJ is a misogynistic con artist who is CURRENTLY playing everybody for fools–has been entirely lost in what I see as a private argument between you, Welshman, and Booman.
And you ask–no, DEMAND–that the rest of us choose sides.
Well, I’m not choosing any side. A plague on both your houses. Go take your private fight somewhere else.
This is as predictable as the sunrise: the only sure way to really get VIBs (Very Important Bloggers) hot and bothered is to criticise them.
You are operating under the mistaken assumption that I, Shadowthief, have some vested interest in helping you protect your reputation.
I assure I do not. I don’t care if you’ve been falsely accused of pilfering the Queen’s best silver from Buckingham Palace. The issue of your reputation simply isn’t important to me.
It’s obviously important to you. So go defend it. But save yourself the bother of demanding that the rest of us choose up sides, because I, as well as some others here, have exercised our option of staying out of it altogether. You’ve no right to demand loyalty nor obedience from any of us, yet that is what you have done–hence I quoted the delusional dictator Esposito from Mr. Allen’s film to illustrate the absurdity of the situation.
Is that clear enough? I hope so, because I’m tired of this fight, and I’m tired of listening to you.
I’ve managed to miss all of this drama up until now, for which I am quite thankful. So I don’t really know what all the details might be or what have you.
I have a few comments anyway, sort of to everybody more than just to BooMan.
First off, whether Soj is male or female is probably the least important aspect of this whole thing, IMO. Really, who the hell cares? Does it actually make a difference in how offensive or inoffensive his/her posts are? And if that’s true, frankly, it says more about the reader’s perceptions than the author’s…
It’s the internet. I could be a six foot tall genetically modified talking potato for all any of you know, and you’d still only have my writing to go from in forming an opinion of me. With very few exceptions, I try to avoid this need to “know” the people I occasionally read here or elsewhere. Because no matter what they’re like in real life, I’m not going to find out from reading their posts on a damned blog.
I have never personally been offended by Soj, but I’m really damned hard to offend, so I won’t claim that he/she isn’t offensive on occasion. At any rate, connections to questionable dating services do not a sexist make, necessarily, as far as I’m concerned — it’s just not that simple. Neither does, for example, defense of pornography or pseudo-pornography in ads. If you want to get into that whole can of worms, I suggest you google “feminist porn wars” and/or “feminism sex work” and read all sides of those neverending arguments. You’ll find it’s a much more complicated issue than “good” or “bad”.
And BooMan, I understand your frustration at feeling that you & Jerome are being unfairly maligned, but really, I’d just try to let it go. The internet seems to me to work to magnify every piddly, nitpicky dustup into a major conflict that can go on for weeks or longer. If you feel you’ve set the record straight to the best of your ability, that’s the best you can do.
if the “ad” or “business” in question was offensive — I have no idea, having missed this whole damned thing — and it was removed, then that’s all that needed to happen.
Just wanted to state that, for the record.
I knew you were a potato…
…I could see it in your eyes.
(No, I’m not trying to butter you up, either.)
Bada-boom! ;-D
As a part-time member of NIT, I can’t verify the accusations made by Welshman and others. I don’t intend to disprove anyone.
What I do distinctly remember was a diary written by Soj (long since deleted) which advertised her LIR site. While I frankly thought it was annoying that a diary would be used to advertise, it wasn’t my business. And I certainly did not believe that Soj was engaged in any sort of sexual trafficking.
What I believed at the time, and what I wrote at NIT, was that Soj should have alleviated those concerns by responding to them. I didn’t realize then that she was unavailable to comment. For that I am sorry.
I can’t be much more substantiative than that, but I am trying to be respectful on this extremely touchy issue.
🙁
Nothing good will come out of this, I am certain.
The Complaint and Argument has ZERO, NADA, NOTHING to do with SOJ. Soj was used by Welshman as a tool to get back at Booman and Jerome. THE END. It isn’t about Sex or intrigue. It is about someone trying to bring someone else down. I was here for the entire thing..Soj’s website, her dairy about it and the NON-ADS that were NOT taken out. Soj did something and Welshman tried to exploit it and use it to harm Jerome and Booman. Seems like Welshman was a bad egg long before Soj even had an idea about a Romaian website. Seems like he tried to delay the launch of the ET for his own gain. I remember it all from reading about it on Dkos and then here. Booman has tried to show Proof and once he did that..he got no response. I would beware of Welshman…Doe had a lot of followers too.
I have a copy of the diary in question so I’m not just relying on memory.
There was an ad embedded in soj’s original diary. It was a picture called “romad.jpg” that linked directly to his/her “dating” business. Now, since this was just a linked .jpg, Booman may not have considered this an “ad,” but it (and the diary as a whole) clearly served that purpose, even if he never accounted for it.
It’s also possible the ad ran on the front page. I recall that it did for a day or two, but I have no proof, so I’ll err on the side of caution. All we know is that an ad ran within the original diary.
The business mentioned in the ad is clearly unethical. Anybody who thinks that setting up Romanian women with wealthy non-Romanian men who can buy their time and affection is not associated with prostitution or exploitation of those women in some form is deluding themselves. Whether Soj is among the deluded or actively put people on, his/her connection raises many questions and casts a long shadow on those who would defend him/her.
I also doubt a lot of Soj’ supposed personal story, but there’s no evidence there, so nothing more should be said. I can and will speak only for myself: this whole affair is a major reason that I avoid reading and posting on this site–and I’m not alone. That may anger you, but it’s reality. Those of you who denounce people who raise concerns are avoiding responsibility for your own words. You’re responsible for your own support of a shady business proposition, and nothing anyone can say absolves you of that responsibility.
It deeply dismays me, and confirms my worst suspicions, when people like Booman and Jerome that I otherwise respect respond to these concerns not with respect, but by denial and claiming that the people involved have ulterior motives. Though I can’t speak for him, I have talked to Welshman, and it seems he left the EuroTrib project in part because he didn’t want to be associated with the unsavory aspects of Soj’s personal life and business. If Jerome and Booman disagree, fine, but for them then to claim that Welshman, Librarian, and Polydactyl are conspiring and making things up out of jealousy is absurd. It diminishes them both.
I hope that Booman can take responsibility for his part in this, and stop blaming others. I hope Jerome and others do the same.