I’m tired of Welshman, Librarian, and Polydactl slandering Jerome a Paris and me, in their witchhunt against Soj. Just look at the thread here.
If you are a masochist you can read the whole thing here link
For easier reading of this thread, start here.
Heady days those were (none / 1)
I wonder if working on the launch of a new website is like childbirth, in that you repress the memories that are most painful?
I doubt that you would argue that BT and ET were siamese twins, joined at the server and sharing some rather onerous database problems right after the launch.
Anyone can go back and look at content dating to the last week in May on ET, your Welcome Message on Sunday, June 12th and any number of message threads on Monday, June 13th that relate server crashes, missing comments, obliviated diaries and disappearing user accounts. The impact was most felt on BT, but certainly posed a problem for ET. To this day, there are comments in the ET archive that have no user associated with them.
My point is this…the dust up on BT regarding Soj did take place prior to the actual launch of ET, but both sites shared the same advertising. At some point on Thursday, June 9 the ad for Love in Romania was pulled from BT, but on Monday, June 13th the ad reappeared on BT and also the freshly launched ET. The ad stayed in the rotation, between the server crashes of that Monday for at least six hours that I am aware of.
That this ad was not cancelled permanently, but merely pulled says something, as does the fact that of the cadre of front-pagers mentioned in your Welcome Message, Soj got top billing. Top billing came after the stranger-than-life Soj diary advertising Love in Romania that is at the root of this controversy. Anyone who wishes to trip down fantasy lane can do so here…witness a diary by Soj so bizarre that it garnered a whopping 4 comments. It did much better at BT and of course, a week later the faithful followed to the permanent home of soj, ET.
A personal smear by me, I think not. No conspiracy here, just a request for you to refocus your passionate advocacy to your own diaries, and like my mother used to say “be careful who you lend your reputation to”.
Claws beat Skin Take Back America
by polydactyl on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 03:43:58 PM EST
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I just went back (none / 0)
and read my email exchanges with Keith on the night in question.
Without revealing private correspondence, I have satisfied myself 100% that I never ran a blogad for Soj’s dating site. As I told Keith, I had been contemplating offering her a free ad, as I gave to pastordan when he came aboard. Once I realized what kind of site it was I dropped that idea. It never ran, and you are lying.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:16:03 PM EST
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Come on, Booman (none / 0)
All this lying stuff is not what a discussion on a site is supposed to be about. Apart from the fact that what happened six months ago is totally irrelevant to your support of Soj today.
I think you are aware that you are introducing issues that are deliberately irrelevant.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:02:53 PM EST
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Without revealing private correspondence (none / 0)
How short is your memory? You just did upthread!
Chill out Booman, you are going way off track in this discussion. Do you agree with what Soj wrote about women? If not, why do you promote and cross link to the diary?
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:05:23 PM EST
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Where (none / 0)
are you getting this from? I do not recall running an ad for Soj’s site at all.
I could be wrong about that, but at least initially ET had no ads sold and was just running the BT feed. So, it is impossible that it would appear at one and not the other. But regardless, I have no recollection of running an ad for the site. I recall her putting the ad in the text of her diary. That diary was eventually deleted.
It never appeared at ET.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:06:27 PM EST
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As Booman reminded you (none / 0)
It was pulled when I objected to its contents, which in fairness to Booman, he semed genuinely unaware.
The objection now is not to past history but to you continuation of not rejecting this man having writing on women of this type on his site.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:14:41 PM EST
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The ad was provided free (none / 0)
..in exchange for Soj becoming a front-pager. And it did appear on ET, I’m afraid.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:00:37 PM EST
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How about you disown polydactl’s total lies? (none / 0)
I will now publish excerpts from two emails I sent to you. I will only redact portions that would reveal things you were saying to me (other than a general concern). I do this to prove polydactyl is a liar.
Jun 6, 2005 11:44 PM
and this:
I’m a little shocked by her dating/nuptial website. I agree we shouldn’t promote it. It seems out of character, and I am little confused by it.
Jun 7, 2005 1:29 AM
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:30:40 PM EST
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Booman (none / 1)
You have objected to the publishing of emails. I now note that you have lifted your objections. I will not bother to post my own to you asking you to give proper consideration to these matters.
You “blew off” my concerns on the diary that has now been removed from the site. Soj also posted his advertisement for his dating agency and explained that the posting of this had been discussed with you.
You seem to miss the point – deliberately or because it has not been repeated on here sufficiently. No matter how much evidence has been removed, these views on women remain on Flogging the Symian which is cross posted on the two Tribunes, which continues to be promoted by Soj and you and Jerome continue to promote the site. It is concerned with the present – not with what happened six months ago.
You do not accept our objections to these writings about women. Fair enough. But they are in the public realm and as such are open for comment, as are those who promote them.
As to the other issues, such as whether Soj has experience of being a law enforcement officer, these matter only if a particular knowledge and expertise is claimed by this front-pager on European Tribune. I know that you take torture seriously. I know that you would not accuse your own country of failing in this regard without proper consideration. If a front-page writer claims special knowledge in this area, surely you would want to know if this is correct? As these claims are made publicly, they can be discussed publicly. That is the nature of free speech.
Better that these matters are dealt with by the liberal blogosphere and not dealt with by the freepers.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:52:39 PM EST
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No (none / 0)
I do object to publishing private emails and I would never publish anything you wrote to me, no matter how innocuous. However, I feel free to publish my own writing, provided it does not betray any confidence. All that can be surmised from my excerpt is that you were concerned about the diary promoting the Love in Romania site. That is a publicly acknowledged fact. I redacted portions that would have let the reader know anything more specific about what you wrote me.
Now, your friend polydactl just published a fantasy sequence of events made up out of whole clothe, which suggest that I deleted a blogad, only to repost it later. In other words, I really didn’t object to the Love in Romania site.
In fact, I told you on the night of the 7th:
“I looked at the FAQ at your instigation, and I agree that it is too controversial to be a good fit.”
“I’m a little shocked by her dating/nuptial website. I agree we shouldn’t promote it. It seems out of character, and I am little confused by it.”
“You have registered your objection in the comments of her diary and told her directly, and convinced me that we should not offer her any free promotion at EuroTrib. No one can fairly associate you with the site.”
And you have the gall to complain about distortions on Soj’s part? You’re a disgrace. And so are your minions.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:10:55 PM EST
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Interesting point (none / 0)
You publish a private email to me but are selective in those that you choose and do not allow me to publish those that undermine your case.
Strange double standards on emails, Boo.
As to the strawman you are trying to create, simply respond to the question that is repeating until I think we must all be tired of by now: Do you support what Soj has written about women and if not why do you continue to promote Soj’s work?
Simple as that.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:15:26 PM EST
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What (none / 0)
could possibly undermine my point Keith?
My point is that I never ran an ad at European Tribune at all, ever. The only ‘ad’ that ran at Booman Tribune was the one contained within Soj’s own diary. It was never streamed at either site. I never deleted the diary with the ad, and couldn’t delete the blogad because it didn’t exist. It certainly did not reappear on ET on the 13th for six hours or for a second. That is a lie. Why are these lies being said about me? Why?
I frankly don’t care about your other argument. I already told you to take your opinion and shove it. This discussion is about your participation in a coordinated campaign of lies that have no other purpose than to discredit me and Jerome.
If you could do that by reference to the truth you would. Instead, you distract from the fact that you and your minions are lying through your teeth.
At this point I will take this to the management, since you clearly have no intention of correcting the record.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:21:22 PM EST
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Sorry Booman (none / 0)
But you have created all these strawmen yourself.
I am not sure what you mean by “my minions”. This is a very demeaning comment on a number of posters none of whom work for me and, as I do not own a blog, do not write for me. In fact, I think you would be surprised at the relationship between myself and the posters.
All that you are seeing is a shared concern about a front-pager on European Tribune. You have not addressed the issues but turned it into an incredible personal attack on all those who disagree with you. I am saddened, because both your site and your work on it deserves a better representation than you have given here.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:26:48 PM EST
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Wait a second (none / 0)
You have not disputed my accusations, nor have you corrected repeated inaccurate statements.
You said this to Jerome: “You initially agreed to his advertising it on your site and you responded on that basis on the now deleted thread on European Tribune.” Jerome was in the hospital that night. He agreed to nothing. There is not deleted thread at ET.
and this:
“To not deny what Soj has said or done and just to pretend that Soj did not promote the dating agency on European Tribune” Soj never promoting the dating agency on ET.
and this:
“Simply removing evidence of Soj pushing the desirabilty of Romanian women because of their povertyin order to make money,whilst supporting the writer of these miserable comments does not in itself remove your association especially as you continue to defend and promote this riter.” Jerome never removed anything.
and this:
“I have checked…you are right. The Love in Romania site has disappeared, just as the original thread on European Tribune disappeared. Does this not tell you something, Jerome?
It is like shredding papers and deleting tape recordings in the White House!” More lies. There was no thread at ET.
and this:
“My understanding is that Soj started the dating site with another bloke. Regardless, a deal was done with Booman that the site could be advertised on European Tribune by Soj, until I pointed out its content.” Regardless of what? You well know that I didn’t make a deal but a friendly offer, and that I rescinded it immediately when you pointed out the FAQ at her site.
and this:
“Your memory is wrong. The diary was written on European Tribune on its first day that it went live. Strangely, the day before the Pie fight on DKos. The advertisement was shown in the body of the diary. It was on this diary that I commented. The embarrassment of that diary led to its removal from European Tribune.” Complete fabrication. Total bullshit. You addressed this to Jerome, BTW, and it would be meaningless if you had accurately noted that ET didn’t even exist yet and the diary ran at BT.
and this, after I pointed out that ET didn’t exist and the diary could not have been posted there:
“It was removed. I have a partial copy if you would like me to post it. I’m glad you were only “tempted” :)” How can you have a partial copy of a diary that doesn’t exist? Where is it. Produce it.
and this:
“Polydactyl has posted the details of what appeared on the European Tribune site. I’m afraid that it was not as distanced as you recall (and it seems a very long time ago now so my own memory is not that good!).” Nothing appeared there. Polydactl is a complete liar, and so are you as should be evident to all by now.
and this:
“The ad was provided free…in exchange for Soj becoming a front-pager. And it did appear on ET, I’m afraid.” You know damn well I didn’t make an exchange. I made a friendly offer, the same I made to pastordan. There was no quid pro quo. You are a liar.
You should be banned.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 07:45:53 PM EST
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Why don’t you leave it, Booman? (none / 0)
The thread speaks for itself and it does rather speak volumes.
This exchange is not productive and should have ended many posts ago, as I suggested.
I repeat that both your writing and site is worth more than this, so I am sorry that you have extended a straight forward comment on a specific issue addressed to Jerome into such a protracted exchange on irrelevancies.
Please think about it. I am sure as adults we can agree to disagree without denigrating eachother.
I appreciated your comments on your viewpoint.
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 08:00:06 PM EST
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Oh okay (none / 0)
you can slander Jerome with relentless lies and I am supposed to just leave it?
Look at you?
Look at all the lies you’ve told. Look at it, Keith.
How many more lies are posted at your site permanently? Huh?
How about you set the record straight and apologize to me and to Jerome and to the whole Daily Kos community? Then I’ll leave it. And you and Scooter Libby can slink off the stage into infamy.
Join European Tribune or Booman Tribune
by BooMan23 on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 08:03:21 PM EST
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* [new] The facts stand as written (none / 0)
I cannot keep responding to you endless posts, even though this thread disappeared a long time ago.
I am sure that you will see things differently on calmer reflection. I will carry no hard feelings.
Good night, Boo – for such it was here a long time ago. 😉
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 08:08:33 PM EST
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Okay. (none / 0)
“be careful who you lend your reputation to”
Soj got top billing because she was – and still is – a front pager on European Tribune, despite the advertising for that site. The issue was discussed then on BT, and we decided to go on with soj the blogger. Welshman was not happy about it, and pulled out. As I have said, I disagree, but I understand his position.
Our reputation is on the line, as bloggers. Always has been.
But now, we are 6 months later, and the topic seems not to be closed in his mind. To him, and apparently to the whole gang from NIT, we (well, me in particular) seem to have been permanently tainted by that episode, and thus not in a position to write anything about women, prostitution and related topics. He is somehow associating me with the worst potential aspects of an internet dating site, and pretty damn explicitly accuses me of condoning sex trafficking.
And he brings it up often. So I wonder why, and I additionally wonder what your role is in this.
All I can think up, to be honest, is an attempt to try to discredit the European Tribune, and get traffic to NIT.
In the long run, we’re all dead (Keynes)
Read more on the European Tribune – bringing dKos to Europe
by Jerome a Paris on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 04:39:14 PM EST
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Nope (none / 0)
It remains an issue whilst you continue to promote Soj and Soj continues to promote Soj in the way that he does.
You are only “tainted” by the episode because you continue the promotion and even on this thread you will not disown Soj’s comments on women.
I asked Susanhu and now I ask you – please explain the “he brings it up so often”.
Can you not understand, Jerome, that some of us find Soj’s comments on women deeply offensive?
As you are fully aware, NIT does not belong to me – please check URL ownership. It is owned by its members. It is not a site which attempts to compete with Daily Kos or European Tribune in any way, although new members are always welcome.
I suggest that this is more personalisation in an attempt to avoid the simple question of my post: why do you continue to promote Soj when being fuly aware of his writings on women and the nature of the business that he attempted to run but in which he and his partner failed?
New International Times, the place where Kossacks and the world meet.
by Welshman on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 06:11:39 PM EST
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The only credibility I question (none / 1)
is Soj’s. If you would reread my original post, I only questioned your motivation in this diary.
I don’t seek to discredit the EuroTrib, in fact, my concern is exactly the opposite: that you, Jerome as a diarist and ET as a venue are subject to the credibility of the front-pagers in particular.
As I mentioned upthread, while I find Soj’s attitude toward women unsavory, it is his injection of “expertise” into the PDB’s and diaries referring to his police work, that I find suspect. In a recent diary on torture at BT, Soj responds to some insinuations and questions concerning actual experience. To me, these things do not add up. And as to the posters who brought these questions, you will not find them at the NIT (with one exception).
Scattered amongst the diaries and comments, you can find statements interjected that are provocative, posters then egg soj on for more and all they get in return is a hyped fantasy. A good example is in one of Booman’s posts on anthrax:
Soj: It’s pretty darn obvious who took the damned anthrax (hello it’s on VIDEOTAPE) and it’s pretty darn obvious whose interests it served…
Followed by three responses that beg for his special info…tell us what you know that we don’t know….
Soj: I can’t touch this story because of my policy of not messing with a certain group. Read this….
Chorus of posters including Booman: Ooooh, the intrigue of it all. We have to get on this right away….
Soj: .. but I say proceed with caution. There’s a lot of heavyweights involved here. And you’ll have to do it with my help. I’m a little fish in a sea full of big sharks and they’d eat me for breakfast.
End of another fantastic story by soj. Simultaneously saying I can’t be involved, but you’ll need my help.
I’m not seeking to discredit ET, I am merely suggesting that falling lock, stock and barrel in league with someone who is not content to blog the news of the day without injecting personal fantasies, does put your reputation and that of ET on the line the longer it goes unacknowledged.
Claws beat Skin Take Back America
by polydactyl on Thu Dec 01, 2005 at 05:57:00 PM EST
