Yesterday, we talked about the sanctity of human life. Today, Armando talked about the Alito nomination and his rabid advocacy of abolishing Roe during the Reagan years. That diary sparked a heated debate over the merits of overturning Roe.
It would seem that my adoption of the sanctity of human life would dovetail with the anti-abortion position. But that is not the case. It is a fact of life that we as a society value the woman over the fetus. Even the right-wing fundamentalists would do so. They would not advocate the death penalty for a woman who ended her pregnancy, even though they normally support the death penalty for murder. If you really think that the fetus is valued the same as a woman, then, by logical extension, you must advocate the death penalty or life imprisonment for a woman who ends her pregnancy. If you don’t, then you are not really pro-life and are being morally inconsistent.
Furthermore, the quality of life is just as important as whether or not there is really a life. An unwanted child will not have the same kind of advantages a wanted child will have. The parents will frequently blame the unwanted child for being born and thus interfering with the mother’s life. The parents will make many mean, unkind remarks that, while not rising to the level of sexual abuse, are nonetheless repeatedly demeaning and humiliating for the child.
This kind of treatment by the parents can stay with a person for their whole lives. They can remember mean and unkind remarks that happened over 25 years ago. They are much more likely to experience mental illness, epilepsy, depression, and all of the problems that go with it. Some will get depression so badly that they will get into a state of living death. They will lie in bed all day, not talk to you for weeks on end, and do nothing but relive all the humiliating experiences they have been through.
I have known people from personal experience that were like this. This personal experience shows me that every child who comes into this world should be wanted and loved. If the mother is honest with herself and decides that she cannot provide a warm loving environment for her potential child, then we should not pass moral judgment when she decides to terminate her pregnancy.
Furthermore, even if the fetus is a living being, it does not follow that we should make the mother into a machine and the fetus a parasite. By the same logic, if we should ever develop the technology to do so, we have to kidnap healthy normal people from the streets and make dying people into parasites and hook them up to the healthy live person. To dehumanize the mother and turn her into a machine does not uphold the sanctity of human life, because developing an ethic of human life requires you to consider quality issues as well.
But we cannot even begin to consider the fetus as a living being in the first place before the third trimester. That is because before the third trimester, the fetus does not even begin to have a cerebral cortex, the part of the brain that regulates reasoning, feeling pain, thoughts, and intelligence. That is what separates humans from non-humans. Therefore, it is a straw man to assert that a newborn baby can be killed off under this standard; the baby has a cerebral cortex, while the fetus does not. Therefore, because the mother is a living being and the fetus is not, then the mother’s welfare should be considered well before the fetus.
Many people will acknowledge this. They will grant the arguments raised above. But then they argue that we should let the people decide these questions and not the courts. But the problem is, their cure is worse than the disease. First of all, even if Americans are queasy about abortion or think Roe was wrongly decided, they have come out clearly against any judge who would overturn Roe vs. Wade. They have accepted Roe as the law of the land even when they do not agree with it. But even if that were not the case, that would still not justify this argument.
The sanctity of human life should not be decided by mob rule. Thus, just because 90% of all Whites support the lynching of Blacks does not justify the lynching of Blacks. The sanctity of human life must always come before the dictates of public opinion. Failure to do so will lead to mob rule and the tyranny of the majority. Tyranny of the Majority is bad because that is the kind of tyranny that was used to justify segregation and slavery in the South.
None of this means that I do not care about the moral and ethical problems that the anti-abortion people raise. I was anti-abortion once myself. But the way to solve this problem is not to overturn Roe and allow the banning of abortions. In fact, the right-wingers are defeating their own case; abortion rates are no lower in countries that prohibit or have severely restrictive laws against abortion. And the way to solve this problem is not to pass moral judgment on people who have them. If you don’t like abortion, then don’t have one and don’t marry someone who would.
What we have to do is to create a welcoming environment for any woman who gets pregnant for any reason and show support for her throughout her pregnancy. And if they decide to end it, we need to maintain that welcoming environment regardless of whether or not your personal feelings about abortion are.
For too long, we have stigmatized women who have gotten pregnant out of wedlock. We have called them sluts or whores when they got pregnant and shunned them after they had their children. We need to create an environment of active support for women who have children regardless of whether they have them within or outside of wedlock. That means taking care of their children as they go back to work. That means chipping in to help pay medical expenses or bills. That could mean just checking in on them to make sure everything is OK. Many women, I suggest, would rather end their pregnancies than deal with the anger and slurs thrown their way.
Furthermore, we need to fight to get comprehensive sex education into the schools, open access to morning-after pills, and fight to end the practice of self-righteous pharmacists who think they have a direct hotline to God and would deny women emergency contraception as a result. Paradoxically, these practices would reduce the number of abortions in this country without us having to pass any kind of moral judgment on women who have unwanted pregnancies.
In addition, the debate about abortion has ignored other factors that might influence a woman’s decision to have an abortion. The first is the matter of universal health care. I suggest that many women feel that they have to choose between the prospective child and steady finances. When I was born, my parents had to look all over town for a hospital which they could afford. It cost almost everything they had for them to have a normal birth. And that was back before medical costs went rampant. Under universal health care, the woman will not have to make such a choice because their pregnancy will be paid for. The problem with our medical system is that we place a price on human life. HMO’s and insurance company people with no medical training or experience get to decide who gets to have a normal delivery with full coverage and who doesn’t. Putting in a National Health Service like the UK or Canada puts the hands of medical decisions back into the hands of doctors and patients.
The discussion about abortion also does not always take into account cases of rape, incest, or abusive relationships. I suggest many women decide to end their pregnancies because they do not want their prospective children to have to deal with the pain of having an abusive father. They have enough trouble coping with daily living without making things worse. We need to deal with the notion that it is somehow OK to view women as property. Many men have grown up thinking that beating women is somehow normal behavior. The problem is that thanks to No Child Left Behind, we have turned schools into testing factories and taken a cookie-cutter approach to children rather than treating each child as an individual. This also goes back to the need for a comprehensive sex-ed program; such programs would be very effective in helping children to see for themselves that abusive behavior is not normal.
It is an oversimplification to say that life begins with conception, say that therefore abortion is morally wrong, and then foreclose any meaningful discussion about this. We have to take into account that we value the woman as more important than the fetus, take into account quality of life issues, and go from there. If we fail to take into account the quality of life as well as the protection of life, then we might as well walk in a world where many people experience a state of living death.
TELL YOUR SENATORS, NO TO ALITO:
http://petition.savethecourt.org/fwd/campaigns/savethecourt/register/fc3c4e7fd9e7c7702f2d1c855b206fc
5
AND WHILE YOU’RE AT IT, SIGN PLANNED PARENTHOOD’S ANTI-ALITO PETITION, TOO:
http://www.ppaction.org/campaign/sc_round3_oppose2?rk=j1Al2BE1%5fzGQE
NARAL IS SHOOTING FOR 500,000 SIGNATURES, PLEASE ADD YOURS:
http://prochoiceaction.org/campaign/sen_scotus_alito_103105/forward
AND DON’T FORGET: URGE CONGRESS TO SUPPORT PLAN B:
http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/women_are_waiting/index.html
Judy, I made this post to you yesterday in another thread; perhaps you didn’t see it:
You can make smaller links by utilizing the features at tinyurl.com.
You can also use html like this:
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and just replace all the brackets [ and ] with greater and lesser than signs <and>, and then replace “website address you want to link to.com” with the right website address and “hotlink text” with a short description, and it will come out looking like the tinyurl link I made above. If you want to use html here at Booman make sure that right below the Post Comment box you choose “HTML formatted” instead of “Auto format” from the dropdown menu.
yes shes beginning to post them, not once, but twice, in all the reproductive rights threads too. she did exactly this same thing to a diary of mine earlier this week. she puts one at the top and one at the bottom and both posts are identical. she also does not participate in the threads and she’s blowing the margins.
I don’t know this poster either, I think she might be new but I haven’t bothered to check. I try not to be bitchy about what other folks get up to, I really do, but I just think the repro rights threads are so important right now that a little extra care from people to keep them intact is a very reasonable request.
Especially by someone who doesn’t bother to take part in the actual discussion. I could accept someone “blowing the margins” if they hung around to chat, but drive-by spamming pisses me off.
Who else is up for a zero-spree if this doesn’t stop?
As a more-or-less (and less all the time) Catholic (I’m the oldest of eight children and never, ever missed Mass for the first 15 years of my life. After that, pretty much never.), I spent a lot of years trying to understand my gut-level support of abortion.
Because, I don’t really feel comfortable with that third trimester thing. It seems “technical” and too close to the kind of thing that researchers could flip on at anytime. In a world where all to many people think everything just appeared 5,000 years ago — this trimester thing is just way too scientific for useful discussion.
But, if you think about it there is a very clear line.
When does a fetus become a baby? When does “it” become a person?
When the mother wants it. When the mother want’s that baby, then the fetus is magically transformed into a person. That’s the difference.
Some fetus’ are babies long before they exist.
For some, the instant they are known to exist.
Others, the acceptance takes some getting used to.
But if the woman does not want that fetus, if it isn’t welcome in her body then that fetus is the parasite you spoke of. And to make a woman carry that unwelcome parasite for 9 whole months, is an outrage. And why do we presume to think our opinion matters at all? Has anyone loved a fetus because society wanted her to?
Whose business is it for anyone else to judge whether her reasons for terminating the pregnancy are valid? She’s got something growing in her that she doesn’t want — and I think that she should have the right to stop growing it. At whatever point in the pregnancy that comes.
If the fetus is actually “viable” then deliver it and put it up for adoption. Otherwise, move on.
I normally avoid abortion discussions like the plague because I am totally ambivalent about my own feelings about it and it just gets too emotionally charged for me to deal with.
But I like your idea that the fetus becomes a baby when the mother wants it. I don’t think you are saying that our standing as human beings depends on others wanting us. I knowyou are speaking metaphorically about when the reality of the pregnancy really takes hold within the mother and she decides right then and there that it is a baby; her baby. With me that happenend the moment I found out I was pregnant. There was no one who was going to tell me that my five-week embryo was not my child.
I don’t view ending a pregnancy like removing a wart, but neither do I think women and girls who choose abortion are evil or wrong. I wish that there was completely unrestricted access to emergency contraception and RU 486 so that women could prevent an unwanted pregnancy or end it as soon as she found out. I become exponentially more uncomfortable with abortion the further the pregnancy progresses, but understand there is a need to wait through diagnostic testing, etc and that mid and late term abortions ought to be legal and available. That doesn’t mean I can’t be sad when they occur.
See? My views are all over the place and they change on a case by case basis. I would never deny the right to make private medical and life-altering decisions to any woman. But life is a gift and I mourn it’s passing.
katiebird, I think there’s something beautiful and honest about what you said. It resonates very deeply within me. Like Second Nature, my son was a “life” the moment I knew I was pregnant, and nobody could have convinced me otherwise. But if I had not wanted him and I would have been forced to have him I would have wanted to tear that fetus out of my body with my bare hands. I remember when I had a pregnancy that ended at 3 months and for several days I had to walk around with a dead fetus inside of me, until the hospital could do the “therapeutic abortion.” I’m not sure if this connection will be clear to anybody else, but as I went through that experience–over Christmas, no less–I thought with horror then of what it must be like for women forced to carry a pregnancy to term.
I have a sister-in-law who was forced to carry a dead fetus until her body delivered it.
It took 3 months. I don’t believe that she was ever a completely whole person again.
I have a friend of a friend story that is similar, she ended up going several states over to get the fetus out but…
…what is wrong with people?
I agree 100%. There is no empirical way to define the line before birth where a fetus stops being a fetus and becomes a baby person. The only metric that makes sense for deciding whether or not a woman can have an abortion is “what does she think is right?”.
Amen — that’s a very beautiful and honest way to phrase it. When a woman wants it.
When a woman is forced to bear a child she doesn’t want or can’t afford, the burden of carrying it during pregnancy and caring for it after birth is going to carry over, in conscious or subconscious resentment. And in times of stress (especially stress where the child’s birth and care is a factor) that resentment will fester, and it will come out, one way or another. Forcing a woman to carry and give birth to a child she doesn’t want can potentially ruin two lives.
Contrary to what the pro-lifers/anti-abortionists seem to believe, very, very few abortions occur in the third trimester (even before the “partial-birth” abortion ban). And when they do, they’re usually personal tragedies — something has gone wrong. The fetus may have died in utero, or has been diagnosed as having a serious defect. Or perhaps the mother’s health or life is at serious risk if she continues. Even so, this should be her choice to make. She’s the one who has to endure the physical stress of induced labor to expel a dead fetus (if medical abortion is not available to her), or the emotional agony and grief of giving birth to a child that only survives a few minutes, or whose life is at risk if she forgoes chemotherapy in order to carry the child to term. And she deserves support for her very difficult decision, not condemnation because her personal tragedy doesn’t occur until much later in the gestation process. (This is something of a personal issue for me, as my sister had to make that choice in her second trimester, even though she did want a second child. If she had not been able legally to make that choice, her health would have been put at serious risk, possibly her life as well, for a fetus that would not have survived to term anyway.)
I agree with all that you say. Within your comment lies the essence of choice.
Logically, I think that abortion rights are about bodily integrity, not personhood. It wouldn’t matter if the fetus was a person, it has no more inherent right to its mother’s body than to its father’s body or anyone else’s body. This is an objective argument.
Subjectively, that is emotionally, I feel much like Second Nature does about it. I have helped take care of my friends after they’ve had abortions that I’m reasonably sure I could not have personally justified having. And I have mourned at the same time as being a good friend, because being a good friend in my book means you do the work to strike that balance.
But bodily integrity is a critical right in a free society and it must not be surrendered to the state. This is also a central underlying principle for why I oppose things like sodomy laws, the draft, and the idiotic war on drugs, and support things like the right to choose to die. The state should have an extremely compelling reason to muck around inside of our bodies, and the burden should be on the state to prove why it needs access, not on the citizenry to prove why it has a right to bodily integrity.
Which is why I didn’t say anything about where on that scale I fall. And won’t. It just doesn’t matter.
It’s taken me a long time to feel comfortable talking about my personal emotions about it. In my case, I think this was because I hadn’t worked them all the way out, and it made me feel too exposed. Some time in the past few years, though, some “logic” of why I have the emotions I do just kinda gelled in my mind, if that makes sense, and now talking about the whole subject is much less frightening for me.
I am so sorry about what happened to your sister-in-law. How horrific.
I agree with you about bodily integrity. And I agree people should be allowed to choose to die. If they wish.
But I don’t agree with making euthanasia legal. It’s because of how screwed up our culture is, and how it values some people at next to nothing for the most screwed up of reasons. The old. The ill. The poor. The non-white.
We’ve seen what families do to their unwanted and unvalued relatives, and we’ve seen what communities do to their unwanted and unvalued members. I don’t want to open the doors for that to branch out into encouraging people to just go die and stop being a burden on the world. Because you know it would happen.
IMO every single person should have the right to decide when to stop living. Of course having laws protecting that right would possibly open doors to abuse, but it is up to society to lessen that possibility. Don’t tell me I have to continue living when life becomes unbearable to me just to ensure that no one else abuses that right.
In a lot of cases you don’t. Just because it is not legal for a doctor to kill you, doesn’t mean you can’t do for yourself if that is what you want. If you can swallow you can take pills. If you can grip with your hand you can fire a gun. And so on.
Well, if I was in a position where I was still technically alive but couldn’t take my own life I would want a family member or friend to be able to give me pills or some other benevolent way of ending my life without ending up in prison. I should not have to blow my head off to end my life.
Yes. Most people would want that. I agree with you myself.
I just don’t want people bullied into dying, and I think that is what would happen.
I share your concerns about folks being bullied into dying. I am disabled with chronic illness, in fact, so it’s a very personal issue to me. But the possibility of a few people abusing a freedom is no reason to restrict the freedom from everyone, imo; it’s a reason to think it out, move carefully, and enact good policy that ensures our freedoms at the same time as it does its best to protect against abuses.
Thanks for the comment.
I don’t accept that it would be just a few people. That is the problem. To illustrate, I could easily turn that statement around and say “The possibility of a few people living with pain for a while is no reason to risk allowing others to be bullied into dying.” I am saying that, not because I would want to use that in an argument, especially with you (you are always so gracious and careful to avoid flame wars) but to point out that I don’t think minimizing this concern is the way to go.
It’s not even just people whose relatives would pressure them, although I’m sure that would happen. It’s our whole culture. This goes back to some things that were touched on in the racism diary yesterday, and have been elsewhere on this site.
You know how poor people in this country are made to feel they are worthless? that it is their fault they are poor? that they don’t deserve a good life, proper medical care, a good job, enough food to eat… because they haven’t done enough of the right things to earn them? Poor people buy into that.
I think what we would begin to see is poor people with chronic illnesses that have never been properly treated, concluding that their life sucks, they are worthless anyway, and they don’t deserve to live. So they go over to the euthanasia clinic on the corner and get it taken care of. No more problem.
If that happens, that person will have been bullied into dying just as much as the elderly woman whose children want her inheritance and who keep hinting maybe her quality of life just isn’t there anymore…
It’s not that I disagree with the principles articulated, or the right of people to die if they want to. I firmly agree with both those things. I just think we can’t afford to try to put this policy into place until we fix some of the sick, twisted, fucked up things that go on in this country. Until we have national health care, for a start.
I have a hard time following your logic, furryjester, and I hope you know I’m only saying that to be direct and honest with you, not any weird passive aggressive crap.
I mean, no one here was arguing that a euthanasia policy should just be put into place in a vacuum, yet your concerns all seem to revolve around the notion of legalizing euthanasia without any other policy changes. I certainly wouldn’t recommend that, as it violates my preferred “careful movement” MO.
I think everything is inter-related, and I completely agree that the pressures which concern you are societal, broad, and deeply embedded. Which is exactly why I prefer my careful movement MO. It lets us move toward “fixing” problems without getting stuck stagnant or moving recklessly and ensuring the needless death and suffering of a shitload of people. So whenever I say, for example, that I oppose the war on drugs, that does not mean that I think we should just legalize all drugs and not do anything else. There’s a good deal of additional new policy that would have to be worked out and accompany that. Same with right-to-die laws. There would be the same old issues to deal with that we already have, and there would be new issues, and we’d need extensive policy and social supports to deal with them.
But imo we should always be moving toward responsible freedom, period. I will always advocate that, and that is where I will always come down on policy. It’s one of the few universals in which I believe.
Some policy changes, such as in our health care system, would make me more comfortable with implementing right to die laws. Also if we were closer, as a nation, to valuing people as they should be valued.
It sounds like we agree on a lot.
I’d say: every single person should have the right to decide when to stop living or to keep living, without coercion. Such coercion, if part of an established pattern of racism, sexism, or any other form of general hostility, should be tantamount to murder (for coercion to die) or torture (for coercion to keep living).
Personally, I feel that the “life” arguement is something of a strawman. If one were truly convinced that “life” begins at conception, why wouldn’t we consider a newborn baby to be 9 months old? That we count the years of life from the moment of birth reflects just how transparent the idea is.
Just as the Bible says that Adam lived when God breathed into him the “breath of life” so a fetus is not “alive” until it partakes of the “breath of life”.
ALL THE MORE REASON TO TELL YOUR SENATORS, NO TO ALITO:
http://petition.savethecourt.org/fwd/campaigns/savethecourt/register/fc3c4e7fd9e7c7702f2d1c855b206fc
5
AND WHILE YOU’RE AT IT, SIGN PLANNED PARENTHOOD’S ANTI-ALITO PETITION, TOO:
http://www.ppaction.org/campaign/sc_round3_oppose2?rk=j1Al2BE1%5fzGQE
NARAL IS SHOOTING FOR 500,000 SIGNATURES, PLEASE ADD YOURS:
http://prochoiceaction.org/campaign/sen_scotus_alito_103105/forward
AND DON’T FORGET: URGE CONGRESS TO SUPPORT PLAN B:
http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/women_are_waiting/index.html
Judy, I gave you a “2”, for the reasons mentioned by posters above. I respect what you’re trying to accomplish, but the way in which you are approaching your cause has become counterproductive (to both your cause, and the discussions at hand).
And yes, I may seem like a hypocrite, as I haven’t participated in these discussions in writing, but I’ve been participating by reading and learning. Your posts have become disruptive to the process.
Given your passion with this issue, I’d be genuinely interested in your experiences – and how you became involved in this cause. Until then, I respectfully request that you discontinue the drive by posts.
Peace
(Duh!) (Meaning: I agree.)