Back up of the digital mat and jabbing: Liberal Street Fighter
Once, a few years ago, I was waiting to pay at a small little market near my old apartment. In front of me there was a guy paying, and then behind him a woman with two young boys. One about four, the older one about seven. This was a small market, and they were pushing and shoving and play fighting, oblivious to the world around them. A stockboy came in with a teetering stack of boxes on a two-wheeled cart, his arms shaking with the strain as he tried to ease past the two boys without hitting them. His mother paid no attention to the man’s plight, so I finally said, rather sharply, “boys, could you step aside so this man can do his job?”
The two boys reacted with shock … plainly no one had ever repremanded them, or deigned to instruct them that it is important to be polite and heedful of those around you. The stockboy looked at me gratefully as he rushed by, eager to drop his load in back, but the mother WAS NOT as appreciative. In fact, I got an earful about how I had no right to tell her little beasts to behave around others (I replied rather bluntly that SOMEBODY should).
In any event, for some reason I was reminded of this little conflict when I read A Man’s Right to Choose in the New York Times. Especially this:
The bottom line is that if we want to make fathers relevant, they need rights, too. If a father is willing to legally commit to raising a child with no help from the mother he should be able to obtain an injunction against the abortion of the fetus he helped create.
In other words, it’s all about US.
Too much of a leap? Well, so much of the debate about abortion, when men are involved, ends up in a plaintive “what about MY rights?”.
The narcissism so often on display in us men is instilled in us in many ways. We’re told we can grow up to be whatever we want to be. Many boys are deferred to in homes, especially an eldest son, and our every accomplishment is celebrated. Yes, I know this isn’t ALWAYS true, but compare it to the types of encouragement girls get, and one can see why so many boys act like the two I encountered in that market.
One of the reasons why initially pursuing the opposite sex is so stressful is that it is one of the first times in our lives where we have to hold ourselves out for approval, with the very real possibility of rejection. No safety net. It’s terrifying, especially when the hormonal stew of testosterone has completely highjacked our every waking thought.
What does this have to do with abortion? Bear with me. When we do share our affections with a woman, we try very hard to put out of our minds that we’ve just put our future at risk. No, I don’t mean this in the sex=death way of the right, or sex=sin, but rather that we can be held responsible if a child results. We joke about shotgun weddings, but it’s a whistling past the graveyard kind of joking when her period is kind of late. If she IS pregnant, far too many of us think:
About a decade ago, my girlfriend became pregnant. It wasn’t planned, but it wasn’t exactly unplanned either, in that we obviously knew how biology worked. I desperately wanted to keep the baby, but she wasn’t ready, and there were some minor medical concerns about the fetus, so she decided to terminate the pregnancy against my wishes. What right did I have to stop her? As it turned out, none. It was, indeed, a woman’s right to choose.
Not surprisingly, we broke up. And my desire for fatherhood was eventually fulfilled by two wonderful children. But every so often I think back to the fateful decision, and frustration boils up. I am particularly reminded of it now, as I counsel a friend who finds himself in a parallel – but reverse – situation: when he broke off his engagement, his girlfriend told him that she was pregnant and was going to have the child no matter what.
That is her right, of course, and nobody should be able to take that away. But when men and women engage in sexual relations both parties recognize the potential for creating life. If both parties willingly participate then shouldn’t both have a say in whether to keep a baby that results?
As little princes of our own little universes, there is an undeniable logic to those statements. It makes some sense to us that we still have a choice:
Today we can know who the real father is, thanks to DNA testing. This means that society can hold fathers responsible for the children they sire.
And this is exactly what is happening. A recent focus of social policy in general and welfare reform in particular has been responsible fatherhood. Efforts to collect child support from deadbeat dads have increased. So have efforts to bring those fathers within the sphere of their families.
NOBODY is arguing that we should let my friend who impregnated his girlfriend off the hook. If you play, you must pay. But if you pay, you should get some say. If a father is willing to legally commit to supporting and raising the child himself, why should a woman be able to end a pregnancy that she knew was a possibility of consensual sex? Why couldn’t I make the same claim – that I am going to keep the baby regardless of whether she wants it or not?
Well, you might argue that all the man provides is his seed in a moment of pleasure. The real work consists of carrying a child for nine months, with the attendant morning sickness, leg cramps, biological risks and so on.
But how many times have we heard that fatherhood is not about a moment, it is about being there for the lifetime of a child? If we extend that logic, those 40 weeks of pregnancy – as intense as they may be – are merely a small fraction of a lifetime commitment to that child.
Except, we DON’T still have a choice. We made our choice when we had sex, and it is a more profound choice that a “moment of pleasure”. That we often treat it as just that is a fault in us. We have surrendered our future to the choices of another person, if we wanted to be truly honest about it, the way women have been forced by custom, dogma, law and … well … physical force, to submit their futures to the vagaries of others for most of recorded history. We have chosen to be cast along by forces beyond our control. This terrifies men who were raised to believe that they could have the world when they were boys. When you get right down to it, men are bigger romantics that we like to admit. We LIKED be little princes, and we hope to grow up to be Prince Charming, completely in control of when we find the girl of our dreams, a girl who is saved by us and made our bride.
That is the crux of the problem men have with this entire question, if you’ll allow my broad brush and facile pop psychology. What about MY choice?
You made it bub, so be a man and live with the consequences.
I’m all for men having the right to keep the pregnancy going after the woman has decided to end it. He should go to the clinic with her and save the contents of her uterus, and if he is able to nurture it along for 7 or 8 months until it reaches viability more power to him.
As for the scene in the grocery store, I wonder how pissed the mother would have been if one of those boxes had fallen onto the kids’ heads. No doubt she’d have blamed you for not warning them to get out of the way.
That is exactly what I thought. If a guy can find a way to care for the fetus for 8 or 9 mos., have at it!
those 40 weeks of pregnancy – as intense as they may be – are merely a small fraction of a lifetime commitment to that child.
He act’s as though a woman’s body is just a factory
“But how many times have we heard that fatherhood is not about a moment, it is about being there for the lifetime of a child? If we extend that logic, those 40 weeks of pregnancy – as intense as they may be – are merely a small fraction of a lifetime commitment to that child.”
Then I suggest that all men who father a child be required to donate a kidney, thereby preserving the life of another, and putting their bodily sovereignty on the line in the same way a pregnant women does. As with pregnancy, the kidney donation may be a minor and temporary inconvenience, or contribute to life long health problems. It’s a crap shoot.
Not to mention making their feet change size permantley, so that they can no longer wear any of their favorite shoes.
I was mightily pissed off that no one told me about this — I thought the shoe thing was temporary, but no……and I’m the kind of person who had boots from 15 years ago, and they fit me just right.
bastids.
π
Problem is, most men don’t have “favorite shoes”–but just insinuate for a moment that it’ll impact the size of their jockstraps and well…. π
<duck>
but they have them — mostly one or two pairs at a time, i.e., the shoes they wear until they fall apart!
And on the subject of jock straps — last spring, I had to go get my son a cup ’cause he was going to start playing catcher… so off I go to Academy. After mcuh searching about, I finally ask an employee “I need to get a cup for a six year old, can you tell me where I would find a size small?” All they MAKE are extra-large, large, medium and regular…yes, REGULAR.
Yeesh — can’t have boys under the age of 10 thinking that their penis and testicles might be SMALL. It would be a tragedy….
ohmigod. I’d never had occasion to look into it, but that is funny as hell.
You know how they’ve started doing the “vanity sizes” with women (I haven’t changed in body size for the past 30 yrs.–I used to be a 5, now I’m a negative 2, petite).
So I guess with the cups it’s the other way around, eh?
haha.
Ooh ooh, I have a cup story! I was taking my oldest son, Owen, to get a cup for Little League. He’s sitting beside me in the car and he seems unusually quiet so I ask him what’s bothering him. He says “um, how do they know what size cup you need?”…and being a girl I didn’t really know myself but I told him I’m sure there would be a chart or something on the package. He was mighty relieved and confessed that he thought they’d measure him at the store with something like one of those foot-measuring thingies.
So when he grows up you can tell him, Hey it ain’t like getting a mammogram or anything, huh? π
While we’re on the subject of pregnancy, can I rant a little about America’s abysmal lack of basic sex education ?
A co-worked was complaining that his wife never initiated sex anymore since their second child was born. This was the second child in less than a year.
No one had ever told him that we still live in the bodies of our hunter-gatherer ancestors. When a women bears children spaced closer than three years apart, her body goes into emergency survival mode. Having two babies who must be nursed and carried is life threatening; a third pregnancy would be disasterous, so her sex drive shuts down. Because having two babies puts all three of them at risk for starvation, she stores fat more efficiently; bitching at her to lose weight again after the second baby in the same way she did after the first is futile and cruel; her new physiology won’t let her. Her whole body is in red alert survival mode, so she’s jumpier and more fearful. We attribte these changes in temperment to overwork, stress and resentment. Those factors may play a part, but all the household help, love notes, and romantic dinners in the world won’t change her body’s response to the danger of having children too close together.
Mothers of the stone age had a far superior chance of surviving to successfully rear their children if the older ones were walking before more sibling were born.
Culture changes quickly compared to physical evolution, and we still have the adaptaions that helped the human race to thrive.
…and the brown freckles on my face and the insides of my thighs that never went away, and the stretch marks, and the lower back pain and weakness, and the BIG winner: life long incontinence ! Forty weeks my ass.
LOL. I lost most of my hair and so did my friend. I used to have thick wavy hair, but now I have thin stringy hair. Not to mention, I now get PMS in the worst way, and cramps. My back will never be the same. Not that I would change it for the world, but I had my baby because I really wanted to. I even gave him the courtesy of his opinion. He was out of work and depressed and it was not a good time. I told him if he felt he could not be a good dad at this time, that abortion was an option, though I wanted to have the child. He promised to be a good dad and help me out and be there. Before our daughter was 6 mos. old, and he had never lifted a finger to help, he got a girlfriend. We split up 2.5 years later and I haven’t gotten a check in years. As of today, we haven’t seen nor heard from him in over 2 years. Fuck, and I’m supposed to use my body as an incubator? I think not.
Your back problem is probably due to what happens to the rib cage in pregnancy. The ribs are pushed up and out and can even overlap each other and they don’t go back to normal. The musculature then has to restructure itself around the new posture which makes the healing process after delivery very long and the body is never the same.
I learned about this when I studied bodywork with the Cherokee Mystic I trained with. She taught us a technique, passed down through this lineage of Mystics that actually allows the rib cage to correct and straighten the posture to what it was like before pregnancy. Very amazing. It took me nearly 7 months to hook up with another practitioner friend of mine after I had my daughter, so that I could have this correction. The difference was astounding. The Cherokee appreciate that the impact on the body from bearing children is very profound.
That is so cool. I totally remember when my rib cage popped back in to place…it was a weird feeling and I have no doubt that it could effect the back. I don’t have too many problems now, but my back is a lot weaker than it was and far more prone to injury.
I am unable to have kids.. so im in no position to know your situation BUT.. I do Yoga and everyone one else around me that has had kids tell me that it makes a world of difference. Downward facing dog, Cobra, Cat are three exercises that are particularly effective at limbering and strengthening the back.
^_^
Thank you for your comment. (not) After finally being given the gift of our wonderful son based upon fertility treatments, we subsequently suddenly found ourselves fertile and my wife pregnant. By this time my wife had discovered that our one child was enough for her and that she did not want another. The pregnancy was terminated early on and I did offer any opposition. But if you think that a week goes by where I don’t shed a silent tear about that, you are sadly mistaken. Yes, she would have been the one to bear the burden of carrying the child and dealing with all the effects that childbirth would leave, some permanent. But don’t for a minute thing that I don’t bear a painful emotional scar. Don’t get me wrong, I’ve always been for choice, but in the wake of this incident I know how difficult that choice is. I find your words rather insensitive as a loving father and husband.
Should be: I did not offer any opposition. I can’t read any more of this thread now.
I’m sorry for the situation you and your wife endured and I certainly did not mean to pick at that scab.
My statement was in reply to the absurd and frightening assertion that men ought to have dominion over a woman’s body merely because he deposited some sperm there. My reply was flippant and a ridiculous pseudo-solution to the dilemma.
FWIW, below is an excert from my comment on another diary about life and abortion from yesterday:
See? My views are all over the place and they change on a case by case basis. I would never deny the right to make private medical and life-altering decisions to any woman. But life is a gift and I mourn it’s passing.
she would’ve sued the store and the minimum wage clerk for the injuries to her precious child…
The opinion writer in the Tmes is a turkey. Appalling.
Fatuous princeling himself.
I love the idea upthread, let HIM nurture the fetus…maybe his body has some crevice that will hold protect and give succor to the zygote embryo fetus… go for it big guy!
wouldn’t fit next to his big fat head.
check out the novel The Child Garden by Geoff Ryman. It’s future fiction about how life goes when technology has indeed become a kind of magic and reproduction as well as near immortality are everyday options. The implications that arise constitute a stunning tour de force, and developments in genetics and cloning since it was published (1980s?) only make it more prophetic. I read a lot of science fiction and science fantasy. This one would be among my top five of all time. Never made much of a splash for some reason, but it gets the highest possible recommendation from your truly.
Since the idea re the fetus is so appealing, why not read my comments directly above. I find this suggestion appalling.
My comment is a reaction to the tone (appalling as well, I used that word in my comment) of the op/ed piece. I assume yuu read it, or as it is TimesSelect the extracts in the diary…
I found the opinion piece offensive and that is writer is very uninformed, possibly purposefully. If he is ignorant his biases are intact.
My comment is not directed to you personally…
I wish I had a nickel for every appallingly offensive-to-all-women-in-general comment I have read in the perhaps 200 abortion diaries over 3 years reading the “liberal” blogs. Male after male does diaries on abortion and intone, pontificates and decides. Or they front page appalling ignorance and condescension…
Over and over the tone of those diaries, too many times running thru the whole damned thread, is that women cannot be trusted. To make decisions for themselves and their own health, to care for their own bodies, to care for the children already here …
Women are not trusted to have a private relationship with a physician. Over and over women get slammed in ”liberal” redressing of all the old hoary hatred.
And this too, women are not moral, that is barely below the surface.
That is always the bottom line, women cannot be trusted, so (how neat it all is!) men must decide the great issues of the day… the “important shit”. Whether to consider the health of women in abortion legistlation… just this week argued before the “Roberts” court.
My comment had nothing to do with you.
disclimer — there will be a million types and I have given up the shift key all together because my pinky is currently taped to my ring finger on my left hand….
so, then. what writers/”thinkers” like this dickhead fail to understand is that there is a whole big ass reality out there that isn’t going to fit in to their little categories.
when i found out i was pregnant with my eldest, there were 3 possibilities for who the father might haver been. since i was not in any kind of comitted relationship with any of them, and was actually dating another at that point (I was 9 weeks when I had it confirmed), i could have just VERY easily blown off the whole father thing. BUT i didn’t.
because i felt responsible to the potential father. I had decided to have the baby (many doubts and back and forths with myself and etc.) but in the end, I knew I could not live with myself if I didn’t at least try to make sure that the father/sperm donor had a choice in whther or not be involved –there were lots of embarassing moments and dealing with hostility “you just want money” and that kind of thing…talk about no good deed unpunished.
After feeling stupid for even giving a shit about THAT, I decided that I had a responsibility to the eventual child to be able to tell him/her (him, as it turns out), that I had tried my best, so I went to the attorney general’s office for help in obtaining the DNA tests (they cost about $900 if you do it “privately”) — after giving the ag (cornyn at the time, go figure, eh) name, mailing addy and pager #, filing out paperowrk, i was called to court (with my 3 month old baby) to be told that they couldn’t serve any papers.
so, to wrap this up, i’m ALL about father’s/sperm donor’s rights, but only if they give a fucking shit — and there are many times, when they just DO NOT. 7 years later, i am quite content with they way things have turned out, but bottom line princes, is, you want the rights? take the responsibility.
…is that you give him that kind of right, that kind of entitlement. It’s yours to give, not his to take without your consent.
That’s a little detail many men seem to have trouble with. It’s right up there with “no.”
No kidding.
And what men need to understand is that, absent an emergency & a medical Power of Attorney or some such legal transfer involving the consent of the women, men are never entitled to rights over women’s bodies, no matter how much sperm they’ve deposited there. It’s not like pissing to mark territory, goddamnit.
most when i write about it this way, is that i almost invariably get some guy who says something along the lines of “well, if you hadn’t been sleeping with people in an uncommitted relationship … i mean, my GOD, you didn’t even know one of the men’s last name!! then you nev er would hav e been in this situation.
As most all of you know, I am passionately pro-choice, CHOICE dammit, that is what it about,…ah, shit, I can hardly type — here’s something I posted a while back….on one of floridagal’s excellent diaries
Beauty. that was so well said! (4.00 / 3)
Sometimes I feel like my life is all upside down and weird-ass…I finished my master’s degree when I was 23, for 8 years after, I worked jobs ranging from bouncer at a bar to waitressing at the resort where Dirty Dancing was filmed to convience store clerk to teaching English overseas. When I got back to the states I worked as a receptionist for a while and then got a gig teaching college in Kingsville, Texas. Opened up a retirement account, got health insurance, the whole deal. A year later my grandfather died and left me $40,000, I paid off my car (only had about 1300$ left on it) all of my credit cards (I only had two back then) and invested the rest of it (and did well with those investments too — in two years they made an average of 17%…)
ANYway, a long way of getting around to the part where I get pregnant at 32, single and unable to identify the father (I went to the two possibilities, one showed me medical records of a vascetmy and the other was hostile as hell to the idea of a paternity test). I had just stated my Ph.D. program the year before, tried looking for a full time job and went on interviews while visibly pregnant (yes, I was that naive….I felt terrible about having 7 interviews and no job, until I figured it out).
Here I am at 39, two kids and married now, almost done (just got to write that damned dissertation) with a Ph.D. and I am in the worst financial shape of my entire life.
I made my choice to have my elder son, I know myself well and knew if I had an abortion I would be living with that for the rest of my life, beating myself up etc., etc., and I felt that I had resources enough to cope, even without family around, but those who would FORCE that choice on others have only my deepest contempt, no one should be made to choose this. NO ONE.
I have no idea wht I would have done if abortion wasn’t even an option I was allowed to consider, I’m sure that I would have felt very very trapped and not in control of my own life and no one should be made to feel that way.
Damn. That was long!
π
by brinnainne on Mon Sep 19th, 2005 at 09:57:04 AM EST
Se having the ability to choose or not choose abortion can actually make for for STRONGER, BETTER families in the end. I’d never quite thought of it that way, but it makes exquisite sense once somebody spells it out like you just did. Shows how little the anti-abortion crowd really cares about “family values”. Thanks for the stimulating thought.
I don’t think I have ever been said to make “exquisite sense” before — thank you!
Not only do the anti folk not care about family values, they wouldn’t know one if it bit them in th ass! π
I loved it.. !
thank you for saying so — i would have written a new one, but this finger thing is just pissing me off — I don’t know what the hell I did to it, but it’s all swollen and ouchie…feels better today though ‘cuase I got some Tiger Balm and finally remembered the finer points of wrapping a sprained joint! π
thinking — NOT one, not even the nice, non-hotstile guy with the medical records of his vasecemy called ME back to see if there were any reprecussions from our having had sex…especially the yougest one (who I suspect IS actually the biodad) who gave me a fake phone number (I eye-rolled at that one when I tried to contact him, I mean for fuck’s sake either write your name and number down or don’t, but a fake one?! well, that’s what I get for being able to bag a 21 year old…)
Anyway, it got me to thinking about my own little princes, and what things I need to add to the “I don’t care what she says, use a condom, and make a valiant effort to think with your BIG head” and that is this:
One night stands happen, but even if you never want to hang out with or talk to the person again, a quick follow-up 6-8 weeks later might be a nice thing to do…
Is that a stupid thing to add?
I mean, really, why did I feel so responsible to THEM?? I suppose part of it was feeling like I didn’t want to be judged remiss by my own kid later in life, but really, I tried to put myself in their shoes, never knowing that I had a kid out there and felt that I should DO something….
but why? It’s a common enough joke, right?
Q: do you have any kids?
A: Not that I know of….heh heh heh
Do you think part of it may have come from growing up in a society that never stopped sending us messages, as females, whether it was through serious media or Saturday morning cartoons (between which there was an actual distinction when we were kids, lol), that we only exist to make babies, raise babies, and be responsible for everything connected to babies?
I mean, I know while I was being bombarded with messages about how if I wanted to have sex, then I’d have to deal with whatever “the consequences” were, I sure as hell never heard anything like, “And so does the man.” I never even heard anyone say to one of the boys that they have a responsibility to follow the hell up. Sure there were occasional positive messages about responsibility, but mostly, it seemed like what they were being told was, “Have fun and don’t get caught.”
Fwiw, Brin, I’d definitely tell my boys something like you’re considering if I had any.
Yeah, I think that’s a big part of it, Indy, since I am hyper-aware of these kinds of messages, I try to counteract them as much as possible with my boys and their construction of what “girls are”…. there will be a lot heart-to-hearts in upcoming years, eldest got honored in school as student of the month for compassion, so I think he’ll be able to empathize enough to be responsible with where, when and why he leaves sperm deposits! The younger is only 2, but he does anything adn everything his big bro does, so I have high confidence in him as well!! π
And thanks for the “fwiw”, from you to me, it’s worth quite a bit!
((hugs))
It’s a struggle for me raising three boys, 2 of whom are still teenagers, to balance out common sense advice about girls with a healthy dose of respect. I have told them to always use a condom (or conDEMn as Bush would say)even if she says she’s on the pill, but then I don’t want to give them the impression that all girls and women are lying, scheming shrews intent on trapping them into marriage. It’s always bothered me that I think of myself as a feminist but I’m trying not to raise my boys to be pussies! It’s hard to strike that balance! I have basically been flying by the seat of my pants, but I think I’m doing okay.
I am sure that you’re doing WAAAAY more than ok! I agree 113% about the balance — I am helped out by that immensely by their goddess/godde-parents’ daughters (12 and 14 now) who are like their sisters and were the first to get him (the elder) interested in baseball and are very stong and broach no BS young women….
And as far as flying by the seat of your pants — isn’t that the very definition of parenthood? π
You rock, you know that, right?
If that is not an appropriate question, just say, but if you are comfrtable talking about it — I’d really go for some insight into how to approach/deal with that as relates to boys!
My oldest son is married, so yeah on that count. The youngest one definitely not…he’s just a homebody and he’s never out of my sight. But the one that turned 18 yesterday is a mystery. He just broke up with his girlfriend of 2 years, and he told me several times that they hadn’t had sex, which I found hard to believe. But he really seemed to be sincere and I’m open enough with him that I would hope he’d be able to tell me if they were. It was in the context of one of my painfully honest talks with him where I guess it sounded like I assumed they were sexually active and he stopped me and said they weren’t. So I really don’t know.
You know what surprises me? I completely have a double standard about my daughter though. When I realized she was sexually active she was already in college, but it really bothered me because it felt like she had crossed some threshold where she’d never be mine again. Weird, I know.
Thank you for saying what you did about your daughter because I have been feeling so weird about my reaction to my oldest daughter who just went to college. She told me she wanted to go on the pill, assured me it was just for extra protection and she’d still use condoms.
On the one hand I was really glad we have a good and open relationship and she was comfortable talking to me about it. And certainly glad she’s sensible and taking care of herself. And yet – there was this weird lump in my throat and I wanted to cry. Not because I disapproved, so I couldn’t figure out the sadness. Crossing a threshold was a good way of putting it — and coming on top of just sending her out into the big bad world, and on the other side of the planet no less, maybe it was too much for my mommy emotions to take!
Right on sister! I posted my above rant before finishing with the comments and then I see yours. Hell, I was married for five years, for Goddess’ sake and he still didn’t give a damn. Ugh.
I know many a fine man, so I am not putting men down here generally, but Brinnainne’s story and my own are only the tip of the iceberg. We haven’t even discussed how hard it is to keep a job while pregnant, nor the woefully inadequate leave periods after birth, nor the inability to get promoted if you are of child bearing capacity, nor of the social stigma of being a single mom, nor of the difficulty of finding mates when being a single mom, etc.
I had to go and blog about it.
wow, I’m honored.
I read that op-ed and it made me very, very angry.
Very cool, media girl! I need reminding to get over to your place more often!
yeah mediagirl makes short work of MRA trolls, either online or in the New York Times.
No person has the right to confiscate a womans body for nine months against her will.
Here’s an excerpt from ABOUT THIS BOOK at random house.
I bet he’s pitching another another book.
Is this supposed to be something positive about him? Who the hell wrote this review, I want to throttle them too!
for the part about the princes in the store. In my experience the princesses are fully co-equal to their royal brothers. Good to know that the juvenile royal court is held in stores besides Wholefoods.
I actually have talking points on this one, having endured a lengthy debate on this on another board. I will quote myself:
I have more. I’ll have to dig for them, but that’s a good start.
from Amanda over at Pandagon:
hit wrong button:
I have the solution to this stupid debate figured out.
Men can force abortions on women who don’t want them if they agree to have their testicles removed at the same time.
I think a law like that should probably create the legal ownership of someone else’s body that the men advocating forced abortions seem to want while also creating a situation where they’ll have to consider the implications of what that really means.
Note to self: make sure brain completely in gear before blogging…
I read the quote wrong…but when you think about it, “pro-choice” HAS to mean supporting a woman’s decision to bear a child, and if the man doesn’t like it, well he should’ve thought of that before the event…
Maybe this needs to be stressed more, to counter the “pro-choice=pro-abortion” canard…
What i can’t understand is….
even if the mother exercises her right to choose it doesn’t mean they wont have any babies ever. So he could have talked to her seriously about having a baby after the abortion. It didnt have to be THAT fetus!!
was anyone else a bit confused about this? (sorry you didnt choose to carry that particular fetus to term.. marriage TERMINATED.. hasta la vista)
I love that term. “Little Princes”. That describes so many people I encounter in so many situations. Virtually every conservative I’ve ever met, for starters…
I read this “opinion” in the NYTimes this morning and it just reduced me to incoherent sputtering rage.
You put your finger on it – it’s the sense of entitlement and the inability to see how getting what you think you are entitled to might cost someone else. All that really matters is getting what I want.
I’ve also been known to call it “arrogant self-centeredness.” Little princes. I have a feeling that I’ll be using that phrase in the future.