Madman in the Marketplace’s most excellent diary has alerted me to the recent stirrings amongst the “Man’s Right to Choose” crowd. This deeply creepy movement has now found expression in one Dalton Conley. Unfortunately — or fortunately — his opinion is hidden behind “the wall” at the New York Times, but it’s stench is now wafting through the blogosphere. Says Conley: “If you play, you must pay. But if you pay, you should get some say.” In fairness to Conley, his call for equality does not go nearly as far as other proponents of “reproductive rights for men” I’ve encountered. For these “feminist” men, the message seems to be: Feminism is great. Equality and all that. Shaking off the shackles of thousands of years of oppression. Good for you! Now what’s in it for me?
The argument over a man’s inability to “choose” falls into two categories: 1) Men should be able to demand an abortion or be absolved from all responsibilities that ensue from the woman’s choice to carry to term, and 2) Men should be able to stop an abortion if they want to be fathers and are willing to assume the responsibility for child-rearing.
So, let’s look at the first supposition. I’m paraphrasing: If a woman wants to continue a disputed pregnancy, she should take responsibility for that choice and assume all of the risks and costs. Men should not be pursued for child-support to support children they do not want. To say otherwise, the argument goes, is anti-feminist, because women are fully capable beings and should not need to depend on men. Child-support laws favor women because they put men on the hook for fiscal support of a child they did not have a voice in keeping or aborting.
Wow! There is so much wrong with that, it’s hard to know where to begin. But here are my talking points:
- Child support laws do not favor women. They favor children. Their purpose is not to punish men for their mistakes or reward women for theirs, but to protect children from the mistakes of both.
- Feminist aspirations aside, women do not have the earning power of men, and mothers have the least earning power of all. This is what the Chicago Times recently called the “Mommy Wage Gap.” I wrote a whole diary on this.
- Both pregnancy and abortion exposes women to physical pain, damage, and risks for which there is no male equivalent. While legal, clinical abortion procedures minimize those risks, they still exist. Complications can result in infertility and even death.
- A woman can have a maximum of 2 surgical abortions before seriously risking her ability to carry a pregnancy to term in the future. Men can have an infinite number of their “products of conception” aborted with absolutely no risk to their health or virility.
- There is no legal barrier, nor should there be, to a man reappearing after years of physical and financial absence. He can simply change his mind and step into his child’s life. Many men actually come and go throughout their children’s lives, on their own terms. Is that fair?
- Abortion can absolve irresponsible men of the consequences of their indiscretions. For women, from the moment of conception, it’s ALL consequences. Going through abortion is a consequence. It ain’t like gettin’ a manicure!
- There is nothing fair or equitable in a man saying, “Hey, I want no part of this, so abort or you’re on your own.” It’s coercion. It’s a man using financial and emotional blackmail to control a woman’s reproductive choice, at a time when she is most vulnerable.
So to all those men out there who feel they got the shaft by not being able to choose abortion, I say, take it up with God, or nature, or whomever put the bulk of the procreative hardware in female bodies. If it were in my power to give you the right to have your insides sucked out with a vacuum tube, to cramp, to bleed, to risk infertility, for a shared error in judgment, when it came to sex, I would. Gladly. I would be delighted to heap upon you all the bliss of morning sickness. I would love to give you the hemorrhoids and the swollen, painful breasts. I would share it all in a abundance. But I’m afraid I don’t have that much power. You can say that nature has been either generous or unkind to women, but the bottom line is we don’t have a fraction of the options men do when it comes to pregnancy. So you can whine all you want to about how deprived you are by not having to face the same brutal, life-altering, fertility risking procedure, but some things can’t be equalized. Until you face the same emotional, medical, financial risks a woman does when faced with this glorious “choice,” your whining just sounds an awful lot like sexism. “Oh I can stay or go, pay medical bills or not, observe a woman’s pain or not, according to my whim, but she gets the right the choose abortion. Lucky bitch.” Such a strange notion of fairness these men have.
Now, to the second supposition, or what I like to call “womb envy.” As it takes two to create new life, should it not take two to decide whether or not to terminate that life? What right does a pro-choice woman have to terminate the pregnancy a pro-life man helped create? If a man is willing to assume the responsibility for the life he’s helped create, with or without her post-natal participation, should he not have the right to his own child?
- Women are not incubators with legs.
- Can we please avoid the slippery slope to the dystopian realization of “The Handmaid’s Tale?”
- Last I heard the world was full of women who desire committed partnership and children, many of them frustrated by the over abundance of commitment-phobic men. Why not find one and PLAN a pregnancy?
- Here is a partial list of things men are at NO risk of experiencing as a result of women carrying their children: morning sickness, breast pain, hemorrhoids, painful leg swelling, back pain, rib-cage/skeletal distortion, gestational diabetes, obstetric cholestasis, preeclampsia, vaginal tearing, hypovolemic shock, death in childbirth, postpartum depression…
Dalton Conley tells us:
Judge Alito’s thinking about the role of men in reproductive decision-making is in keeping with how legal thinking needs to evolve in this age of readily available DNA testing. Nor is his position contrary to national sentiment: a majority of Americans feel that the husband should be notified about an abortion.
His only problem was not going far enough, relying only on the marriage contract to legitimate men’s claims to a role in the reproductive decision-making process.
No body of law can make equal what nature has made so disproportionate. From the point of conception, a man should not have equal say, because he does not face equal risks or consequences. With the Supreme Court in transition and Roe v. Wade hanging by a thread, now is a good time to really consider the meaning of “reproductive rights.” Such rights, at their best, can only ever grant us the decision making power over our own reproductive equipment, and their reproductive capability. They should grant us the right to use our reproductive equipment in a manner consistent with our choices. They should should protect us from being forcibly sterilized, but grant us the right to employ whatever birth control methods are medically safe. They should not grant us the right to exert control over anyone else’s reproductive equipment. And, cannot give us the right to escape the financial consequences of said use.
I will not and cannot speak to what people in the privacy of their relationships “should” do, or to the painful emotional realities for both men and women in the event of unplanned pregnancies. Certainly, it would be nice if all men and women could communicate openly, in the event of a pregnancy, and find some level of agreement. For that matter, in an ideal world men and women would not have sex with each other without knowing they are on the same page when it comes to such life altering decisions. But such things cannot be legislated in a pluralistic state.
Also flying on My Left Wing.
excellent!
TELL YOUR SENATORS, NO TO ALITO:
Save the Court Petition
AND WHILE YOU’RE AT IT, SIGN PLANNED PARENTHOOD’S ANTI-ALITO PETITION, TOO:
Planned Parenthood Petition
NARAL IS SHOOTING FOR 500,000 SIGNATURES, PLEASE ADD YOURS:
Naral Anti-Alito Petition
AND DON’T FORGET: URGE CONGRESS TO SUPPORT PLAN B:
Plan B Petition
Judy, please stop spamming this on every choice-related thread. If it’s really that important to you, post a diary about it, explaining why people should be interested in this particular set of action groups. If others agree, it’ll move up to the recommended list. If they don’t… Well, spamming in every choice-related thread won’t get you any more people, so you’ve lost nothing.
If one diary isn’t enough, maybe post weekly update diaries or something?
Coherent and convincing!
Recordkeeper laid things out so cogently and concisely that I don’t have much to add in the way of argument, except to add an additional statement of principle.
The principle in the abortion issue is control over one’s own body. Who controls it? You? The State? Your partner?
I submit that if you do not control your own body, all other “freedoms” are meaningless.
Men and women are not biologically equivalent–as if that point needed to be made! Men, for example, can father a child into their eighties (as the late actor Anthony Quinn did), but women have a much narrower window of opportunity to become biological mothers.
Men, on the other hand, tend to die younger than women. Women are much more likely to suffer from osteoporosis than men. The list goes on and on.
Is any of this fair? No. Nature doesn’t give a toss about “fair”–Nature is only concerned with getting the species perpetuated (and is willing to wipe out an entire species if it doesn’t adapt, or if it destroys its own habitat, as human beings are doing).
So these men are complaining that they have no control over the course of the pregnancy once the process has begun? Tough stuff, mate. It’s not fair. Neither is it fair that the woman in question has to make the heart-wrenching decision of whether or not to have the child or terminate the pregnancy–because, speaking from my own experience, it’s damn difficult to raise a child when you have two well-educated, reasonably prosperous parents doing the job…I have trouble imagining the difficulty a single, perhaps not well-educated, poor mother will have doing so.
Perhaps we should puncture this myth of single mums driving Ferraris and buying Malibu beach houses with the fabulous child support the beleaguered fathers of their children are forced to pay:
The US Department of Health and Human Services estimates that 68% of child support cases had arrears owed in 2003 (a figure up from 53% in 1999)
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_support
And how much do custodial parents receive? (We should note that 84% of all child support payers are men):
According to Support Providers: 2002 [pdf], the average annual amount of financial support was $5,200, about 10 percent higher than the inflation-adjusted level of support in 1997 ($4,700).
About 60 percent of support paid ($24 billion) was exclusively for children under 21 who lived outside the household, averaging $4,200 for the prior 12 months.
About 2.1 million providers contributed support to people other than minor children, including parents (36 percent), adult children (27 percent), other relatives (23 percent) and spouses or ex-spouses (11 percent).
Other highlights:
* A large majority (84 percent) of child-support providers were men.
* About 6-in-10 child-support payers supported one child, about 3-in-10 made financial payments for two children and 1-in-10 supported three or more children.
* About two-thirds (67 percent) of child-support providers were non-Hispanic whites, about 16 percent were blacks, 2 percent were Asians and Pacific islanders and another 2 percent were American Indians and Alaska natives. About 14 percent were Hispanics (of any race).
* About half of people who provided child support were under 40 years old.
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/income_wealth/004012.html
Anybody who is raising children, or has raised them, will swiftly realise that $5,200 annually is a pitiful sum required to feed, clothe, and house one child. It allows for no luxuries whatsoever and not even all of the necessities. And that $5,200 is an AVERAGE amount, which tends to inflate the figure–theer are custodial parents receiving far less. Not to mention that the MAORITY of custodial payments are in arrears in the States!
Distills down to: Men control women’s bodies even when they decline to control their own.
Color me livid!
This is beautifully said, Recordkeeper. I tend to lose my temper when the subject comes up, so talking points are probably just the thing for me.
Have you read about the work of Dr. Sujoy Guha in Delhi? He has invented the perfect contraceptive for men. It involves an injection into the vas which will “stop sperm in their tracks before they can even start their journey to the egg.” Here’s a link to the Alternet story.
I’m very excited about this idea. According to Dr. Guha, the effects can last up to ten years, and are reversible with another injection. The question is – would any of our brave American men be willing to prove their courage by taking this shot? Testing is now underway in Toronto.
It’s a punchline without a joke. Men’s contraception options are always less invasive, less damaging, and more reversible than women’s. There’s a male pill in the works, endlessly, that has far fewer side effects than the female “pill.” Vasectomies are not only a far easier procedure, but they are more reversible than tubal ligation. But the responsibility tends to fall on women — even to carry condoms, these days.
We may have finally reached a point where men start to care about contraception — thanks to technology it is now much more difficult for a man to walk away from his children — they can run but it is very hard to hide. I’m looking forward to hearing the MRA’s who constantly rant about women “tricking” them into become fathers agitating for male contraception.
I’m looking forward to hearing the MRA’s who constantly rant about women “tricking” them into become fathers agitating for male contraception.
::crickets chirping::
And I’m looking even more forward to asking them why they aren’t agitating for it.
It probably won’t surprise you to learn that that’s one of my favorite responses to the whole “unfair” line. Another one is agitating for the artifical womb.
Seems to me that the reasonable answer to this problem is that every individual gets to control their own bodies, and every individual gets to have final say over who else uses their bodies in which ways. That’s fair policy. And while I agree that the biology isn’t fair, I also recognize that that’s exactly what technology is for.
It is horrifically unfair that I became disabled at age 29, but I have both a cane and a wheelchair for when I need them, which helps. Hopefully science will keep on keeping on and there will be better developments in the future. I fight for them and fund them when I can.
So rather than repressing women with unfair policy, these MRA guys should — if they were intellectually honest, that is — be spending their time developing the replacement womb that could make the overwhleming majority of this argument evaporate the very second it’s proven to work.
people who say that abortions shouldn’t be allowed in the third trimester because the fetus might be viable if that means they have no problem with a pregnant woman removing the fetus from her body at 24 weeks and handing it to them.
Lois McMaster Bujold posits just such a technology in her Vorkosigan Saga – which, incidentally, dates from the early 1980s. She uses it as an “excuse” for a significantly more equitable galactic culture.
If you really want to, visit A Man’s Right to Choose, Take 3 over at Salon.com. There you will find an epidemic of puncturing-holes-in-condoms-to-trap-unsuspecting-males-who-have-no-power-because-women-have-all-the-
power entries.
Don’t forget to take a barf bag. And don’t say I didn’t warn you.
to read a more thoughtful discussion, you might want to try the one at Feministe.
especially:
How sad that this even needs to be said.
I’m honored that you found inspiration in my piece. Thanks so much for advancing the debate so wonderfully.
They can choose to keep their pants zipped. They can choose not to have sex with a woman. (I have never heard of a man being raped, have you?) If they don’t have sex with a woman, then she cannot become pregnant with “their” child. Bingo. It is as simple as that.
As to men who do want to have a child, they can try to find the women who want to have a child in committed relationship. I don’t think there is any shortage of those.
If they want to have control over the body of one particular woman, I think that they are out of luck, for all the reasons Recordkeeper elaborated.
That’s my opinion.
I have never heard of a man being raped
Men are raped. Substantially fewer men are raped than women, and substantially fewer men are raped by women than by other men, but it does happen. It probably happens more than statistics reflect, since men are socialized to not admit that they have been victimized, especially by women. But I don’t think it happens in numbers large enough to make it a relevant factor in abortion policy, so I certainly take your point.
especially here at Bootrib. Yes, I know that men are raped by men, especially in prison, which is a terrible thing and more should be done about it. These men suffer from the macho mystique as much as some women.
But men being raped by women? I remember my mother (who is a true blue democrat, and whom I agree with politically most of the time) announcing back in the seventies that women’s lib was foolish because men couldn’t get raped. But then how would she, or I, know this?
One of my old close friends was a victim, so it’s personal to me. He was very liberal about policy, though, and unabashedly pro-choice. And unsurprisingly, he was also much more supportive than average (imo) of cracking down on prosecuting rape and protecting victims, regardless of gender.
ever read Myra Breckenridge
😉
Am I not the rollicking and mischievous one?
Ductape Fatwa, you are rollicking! 😉
(My first ever use of an emoticon–is that what they are called?)
Another perspective on this is one that I would never have wondered about had I not known a woman to whom this happened. While I was in grad school, I met a fellow student who mentioned to me that she had just discovered she was pregnant. Although she had some doubts about having a baby during grad school, she was pleased. She dreaded, however, telling her husband. She went for counseling somewhere – I never knew where – and they told her she had to inform her husband.
She did. And he did not want her to have this child. He pressed the issue strongly, and her efforts to take control of her own situation were unsuccessful. In her words, he “delivered her to the clinic where she had an abortion”. She feared his abandonment or his physical violence if she did not comply
Since this happened, I’ve run across two other women put in similar situations, one who is otherwise a very strong professional in my own field. In her case, she did not want to be taken to court by the man who had impregnated her, and at the same time, she hoped that they would eventually marry.
Are these situations isolated incidents? Though they may be rare, I doubt they are as rare as some might think.
Perhaps the larger issue is whether a woman is required to inform a known or suspected impregnator that she is pregnant. However, I’m sure those who wish to force women to inform their husbands of an impending abortion have never considered the potential “cost” of a woman telling an unwilling spouse that she is pregnant.
I’ve known several women in that position.
Maybe a big boy like Conley should think twice before having unprotected intercourse with a woman who isn’t eager to become pregnant. Now he’s had a taste of the fear women used to live with prior to safe abortion, and he doesn’t like it. It seems odd that this fear still hasn’t become internalized more generally among men, as a little more of it might increase their own level of sexual responsibility.
This is just about the only aspect of reproduction in which men get a worse deal than women, so we might call it “balance” — although it doesn’t even come close to resetting the scale. Unprotected sex is much more likely to give her an STD than him, is much more likely to be forced on her than on him, and the list goes on.
We might feel bad for a guy “trapped” by a pregnancy, even though only a minority of such men use condoms, which tends to blunt my sympathy for them somewhat — especially when they turn around and verbally attack their partners.
Perhaps it sounds as though I am judging a man who fails to use contraception more harshly than a woman, but a man knows full well that taking responsibility at this point is his only chance to avoid parenthood, whereas a woman knows that she can abort a pregnancy if she feels that she must.
Then again, a man can vanish . . . as so very many do. In which case, we can also feel bad for a woman whose partner bailed on her at 28 weeks, after persuading her not to have an abortion by promising that he would “be there for her.”
But the real life bottom line is that both partners do not share the risk of death and disability that all pregnancies impose on women. This is the reason that parental consent laws must be waived when there is such a risk for minors. Whenever the burden of risk falls on a particular side of an equation then it is up to that side to accept or not that risk. Women may choose to accept that burden by consulting with their partners, but in the case of potential harm to them — be it physical, mental or even financial — if they disclose their decision to terminate a pregnancy, it is unjust to force that burden upon them by public policy.
I have two sons (one by marriage, one the usual way). For years now, I have drilled into my older boy’s head the very simple fact that if he ever impregnates a woman, the fate of that pregnancy is not in his hands, but the responsibility for it surely is. If he gets a girlfriend pregnant while he is still in school, and if she chooses to have the baby, we will require him to work at whatever jobs he can find to earn sufficient money to support his child. If this slows down his education or limits his career options, tough shit. OTOH, even if he feels ready for marriage/fatherhood, if the woman chooses to abort, again tough shit for him. He would be expected to pay for the abortion and provide any other related support or help. Her body, her choice — but his responsibility for the consequences of his own actions.
I don’t know how parents might actually ENFORCE this ideology on adult sons, but we sure as hell would try. This whole “men’s reproductive choice” discourse is really nothing more than the same old overprotected and overindulged momma’s-boy thinking that we’ve known all along.
If the rest of society would hold men to their responsibilities as fathers and providers — where applicable, where needed and welcomed, not as some regime of masculine ownership but as actual FATHERS of real children — then this entire conversation would be moot. Of course, it goes without saying that one essential ingredient in this formula for raising responsible sons is that they need substantive, consistent, practical education about sex, sexuality, and contraception.
When I hear a “men’s rights” talking point, my usual response is that I’m not a strong supporter of “dead beat dad” laws, and refer to the study of cause of death Mass. women where pregnancy was a risk factor for murder. I’m not in favor of something that makes it more likely for my sisters to get harmed, and which is also being used as an excuse for more male control.
The more I read about Bu$hCo., and corrupt government in general … “Government is with the consent of the governed” & all that, and the governments say they have a responsibility to protect their people. But what’s really happening is you’ve got different subsets of moneyed elite in conpetition for control of tax revenue and the power to make laws to make rich people richer. And the poor pay protection money (everything’s more expensive when you’re poor).
Why the emphasis on child support? Govt doesn’t want to pay for welfare, it would rather spend money on wars or other reasons to make more profits for the businesses owned by friends of the administration. Anything they can do to foist off responsibility to others helps the bottom line.
Yes, fathers should be more responsible. So should governments.
“If men had babies, abortion would be a sacrament.”
That was 33 years ago. I still think that’s the most pertinent comment I’ve ever heard on the subject.
TELL YOUR SENATORS, NO TO ALITO:
Save the Court Petition
AND WHILE YOU’RE AT IT, SIGN PLANNED PARENTHOOD’S ANTI-ALITO PETITION, TOO:
Planned Parenthood Petition
NARAL IS SHOOTING FOR 500,000 SIGNATURES, PLEASE ADD YOURS:
Naral Anti-Alito Petition
AND DON’T FORGET: URGE CONGRESS TO SUPPORT PLAN B:
Plan B Petition
called vasectomies. Wonder if Scalito is against them too. (?)