I’ll try to keep this short. In my mind, that one rule at Booman means that 1) we don’t personally attack other members of the blogosphere, and 2) we don’t issue accusations that could sully the other person’s reputation, particularly if the accuations are unsubstantiated.
BooMan and I are very easy-going about enforcement of the rule. My favored way is to write a personal note to the person — and I also do that if someone has written a comment that indicates they’re very upset about something.
BooMan always — always — communicates with people at length, both in comments and in e-mails before he takes any action.
There have been almost no bannings. They are a last resort.
More below:
In the instant case, there have been innumerable attempts at communication, some of them not very successful…. i.e., no reply was received or sometimes the reply was very cold or was very sarcastic.
That’s frustrating because, when I write to someone, I’m not trying to put them on the spot. I’m trying to understand, and to communicate with the person. When a private communication like that is rebuffed, it’s difficult to know what else to do.
In the instant case, the person has been informed many times — and in very clear language — that 1) it is not okay to call other people names, and 2) that it’s not okay to accuse other bloggers of being in cahoots to make a lot of money (“The ONLY REASON people are sucking up to that twit [Kos] is because he seems to have been given the reigns to pass out potlitical favors in terms of Blogads for the upcoming elections…”).
We wish that BooTrib made money! How we wish. And that’s a hurtful accusation that’s difficult to refute (i.e., it’s like “when did you stop beating your wife?”).
Anyway, when angry, accusatory conversations take over a blog, the atmosphere becomes unattractive to anyone who might like to join. It’s also very stressful. And, because the attacks focus on other bloggers, instead of our bigger issues such as Bushco, we get consumed by hatred of each other instead of trying to get along and get after Buscho.
I wouldn’t want to be around a blog like that. Nor would most people who mostly want to discuss politics and news.
BY THE WAY: I have left the door open. I did not slam the door. The first response I got was not very promising, but I’m willing to wait and to listen.
At this point, though, I can’t take into consideration what you are writing. I have to consider what she writes to me. That’s what will count. That’s the only way this will be worked out.
Lastly: We try. Sometimes we fail. Sometimes we constructively influence people’s style of communicating on the blog.
I realize that some people will always gravitate to the personal discussions, particularly those where they think someone’s been done wrong. And a very few people — but only a very few — gravitate to discussions that tumble into negativity. That’s human nature.
But, most of us tend to gravitate to the people who are the most constructive in terms of their political discourse and their rational, thoughtful responses to other bloggers here. We don’t gravitate to those who call others names. It’s not fair behavior, and it’s not helpful. It’s not adult or rational. We need to be as adult and as rational as we can be. We have incredibly important races coming up in ’06 and ’08. That is where our energy and time should be focused.
Thanks susan for putting this up. I do hope things work out in a way that’s advantageous to all of us here and doesn’t cause you/boo or anyone else any more stress.
This is the f-ing x-mas season so in the words of that world famous philosopher and renouned pundit-aka Rodney King-can’t we all just get along? Or was that Kato Kalin who said that..just kidding.
“can’t we all just get along? “
That’s all we want. There are loads of places to criticize specific people. The only people I’d like to see criticized here are those who are killing our soldiers and the Iraqi people, etc., etc.
(The stress has been awful, but it goes with the job, I guess. I just hope we can create a positive outcome. As I said above, it won’t come from what other people say in their comments here. It’ll be privately between the person and me / and BooMan.)
Happy happy!
I’m so sorry you were stressed, Susan. It should not be that way.
Sometimes “Don’t be a prick” just doesn’t cut it if you’re going to be going this route, i.e. determining what topics of discussion are or are not allowed.
I must confess to being rather disappointed, all in all…though I think I’ll get over it, since none of my own cliques reside here 😛
Susan..thanks for writing that you will not take into consideration what other write, only what she writes. That is the way it should be. It seems like enough is enough. This site must heal. I did not come to the Trib as a person that was a refugee or unhappy with dkos. I came very early on from an invitation from Booman who was excited about starting his own blog. Dkos was my first blog experience, I still blog over there and I like it over there. My worry after reading many of the comments on here and the other dairies is that it seems that the Booman Tribune is now made up of the majority of people who have left or where banned from Dkos looking for a better blog that they “Fit” into. I was here when Galiee was Banned. I thought this person one of the most offensive people I have ever come in contact with. I remember almost leaving here for good after about my 2 or 3 run in with Parker. I wish she had been banned months ago. I believe Booman and You should have the right to ban anyone you please. I am personally disgusted with the gang take over the booman attitude that I see around here. What I really don’t understand is why don’t some of these people that want a community that votes on everything Start their own BLOG? I don’t get it. It is almost like some people here waited for these days when they knew Booman was moving and wouldn’t be around to try and have a coup of the Booman Trib. I feel like I have been in a really bad, bad nighmare the last 2 days. Discontent ex-kossacks, that didn’t want the owner to lay down any rules or guidelines are running rampent here at Booman Trib. I have been trollrated more here the last 2 days than the last 13 months at Dkos. I now have Bootrib members troll rating me over at Dkos. What is happening here? If this Blog is to grow it must become something other than a place to house people that hate the other liberal blogs or have been banned or kicked out of other liberal blogs. I know you guys get great content in the diaries from some great diarists..but I fear if this keeps up it will become a place known for housing troubled liberal bloggers who will spend the rest of their lives looking for someplace to belong. This is so sad…I have really enjoyed the majority of the company here, the Froggy Bottom cafe is awesome. You and Booman are amazing writers, the latest front pagers are terrific. I just might not be ready for this kind of crazy talk and confrontation that I have experienced by some members the last couple of days. Sorry..but I feel like the host of a party has asked someone about 20 to quit smoking in their house..and they are now just chainsmoking and then putting out the cigs on the sofa and bed. “Time..thou must untangle this not I, it is to hard a knot for me to untie”. I hope it all works out. You are a Champ.
These have been my thoughts as well. We are dealing with some unsavory characters here.
Funny, that thought struck me too.
Don’t be absurd. A “coup” to “take over” this tiny corner of cyberspace? What are the plotters going to do, seize the servers through their coaxial cables?
It’s perfectly evident what’s going on here, and it’s all happening behind the scenes with furious emails going back and forth making increasingly strident demands.
Why not just put up a front page post admitting you’re going to ban anyone who posts any criticism of dKos and its front-pagers? That way people have no doubts as to what’s what, and can behave accordingly. Meantime, you can still feel free to put up posts claiming that the WTC was intentionally blown-up, and that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, et al. all knew about 9/11 in advance and allowed it to happen so they could launch the Iraq War.
Either you’re going to allow people full reign to speak their minds, or you’re going to impose restrictions on what they post here. You can’t possibly wrap that hammer in enough velvet to disguise what you’re hitting people with.
A coup to take over BooMan Trib! I’ll be LMAO about that all day.
Excuse me, not the coup, but the timing…
Could we all just get a life? :::walking away, shaking head in exasperation:::
If you actually think there are people sitting around devising methods of “seizing” this site in any way, shape, or form.
Yup.
AG
JJB,
You are my brother in spirit. Keep fighting the good fight to save the left before they end up becoming what the right has become.
That means giving criticism when its deserved. And sometimes it even means being a little shrill when you’re doing it.
Do you know how fucking asinine this sounds?!?
Get a grip, people!
What about this is so fucking hard to comprehend? Boo was moving, dKos went down, people came over here that aren’t usually here, some who wouldn’t come here except for their need to “take over” the blog with repeated diaries about where dKos had gone, most had NO intentions of staying, participating meaningfully or contributing to “community” in any way, and some of them shat on the doorstep on their way out. And this makes for some huge blogger consipracy?? Ohmifuckinggodde, this is pathetic.
HOW FULL OF YOURSELVES COULD YOU POSSIBLY BE!?
Brinn, all I meant was that it is interesting that all this shit went down while BooMan was moving, a very publicly known fact. I did not mean to suggest that it was a conspiracy, as I pointed out upthread (and of course, that was ignored).
And with this, I give up. Olive branch, meet the martini. 🙂
Not directed at you, personally, CabinGirl, just the whole notion of people with so little to live for, that they are sitting around plotting blog-coups is, well, asinine in the extreme, and that anyone would give this any credence at all, smack DAB in the middle of a debate about the ethics of banning someone BECAUSE THEY QUESTIONED THE MOVITVES OF FELLOW BLOGGERS, seems hypocritical at best.
Of course I could just be hopelessly naive about the behind-the-scenes machinations in the blogoshere, and if that is the case, I must say, ingorance is bliss — I want no part of it. I am just sick and fucking tired or double-standards.
I wonder if LSF will get the same “protections” (i.e., will the LSF-bashers be banned??) as dKos??
We shall see….
Well, some people really DO have that little to live for. I’ve seen people plot coups of Pern fandom groups.
But um…
…yeah. Back to my corner with my blanket. Wake me in a couple of days.
I went back thru your recent comments to find out who was troll-rating you and found only one person doing so and their member number is so high that they must have joined just in the last couple of days. Isn’t that odd? Your declarations of victimhood appear to be overstated, don’t you think?
You know what, cham? I have read a BUNCH of your comments about how awful we are here at BMT, and how you have gotten troll-rated, and disrespected and et. etc. I do not dispute ANY of that.
What I take SERIOUS issue with is you inability to distinguish between people who are regulars at BMT and those who either a) pop in when other bogs are down (which is what happened this weekend) or b) primarily post elsewhere and mostly just lurk around here.
I submit, after looking at the ONE incident where you asked someone to delete a diary, that it was the latter kind of folk who down-rated you and treated you badly. To hear you CONTINUALLY and REPEATEDLY brush the entire community with over-gernalizations, like gang-take-over and “the Booman Tribune is now made up of the majority of people who have left or where banned from Dkos” — do you have ANY evidence of this at all?
Anyway, these posts are leaving a really, really bad taste in my mouth, after totally agreeing with you initial reactions to the incident.
IS there something else that I don’t know about that you are talking about here? It seems that you had a goal (“I wish she were banned months ago”) and you reched it by any means necessary. That’s just MY take on this situation. Mostly, I sick and fucking tired of hearing about it.
Look thru his comments and ratings. Only one person down-rated him, only one, and it was a new member. Do you think I treated Cham badly by asking him/her not to be a Diary Cop? I was then accused of being a member of a kos-bashing gang and I hope you know that I am not.
Well, maybe I “should”, but I’m not going to dispute Cham’s take on it ….And, actually, that was my point, sjct, I meant that I wasn’t disputing the FEELINGS expressed, or that there was one person who was an asshole — I think the entire thing has been blown totally out of proportion through a number of different people’s actions. IT does seem to me that Cham had been on Parker’s ass for quite some time and that this incident was used to get her banned, but, hey, that’s just my take and it doesn’t matter one bit what I think about all of it.
In answer to your questions, no, of course not. If Cham is within bounds in asking respectfully for consideration of the diary deletion, then so are you in asking that we not start that kind of diary policing here. If one of them is out of bounds, then both should be — that is my point, I hate double standards and hypocrisy.
And just for the record, I could not care less if someone wants to spend their time bashing dKos, what difference does it make?? Their opinions on that subject don’t diminish them in my eyes in any way, I will engage in argument with them (or not) in the same way I choose to engage (or not) with people on any number of topics….
I agree with JB, this is tempest in a teapot stuff, if it weren’t given so much attention by the blog owners and front-pagers, it wouldn’t be nearly as big of an issue.
Case in point. I didn’t know there was an “issue”. Heck – I naively thought that Booman would return to this site, delighted with the genuine outpouring of kindness that’s been spreading like wildfire from ejmw’s diary.
I admit to being quite a bit more sensitive than most, and I accept that about myself. But that sensitivity made me understand how Martin has been feeling, and what prompted him to write those two FP diaries a couple weeks back. Members from DK and BT use broad brush strokes to denigrate the other site in question.
Wouldn’t it be vitalizing for a site proprietor (whether Martin or Markos or whomever) to have the ability to focus on building their respective sites, rather than following links around the Net in an effort to uphold their reputations in the face of disparaging allegations? Yes, maybe some of us need to “get a life”, but for many blog proprietors, that is their life.
Oh – to have all the badmouthing stop – from all sides. (Idealist that I am) It’s so damn unproductive and so unnecessary. Disputes for the sheer fun of having disputes. (And I still don’t know what this diary is about, but that’s okay)
Good day, “dear”!
fwiw, I don’t think it is the site proprietors so much as folks a few slots down in the blog-land hierarchy…
The whole “defending reputations” thing — I don’t know what to say about that — part of me understands it, I have been known to leap to people’s defense even when they didn’t want/ask for it, another part of me just wants to scream, “oh, get over yourselves!!” I do understand the view that says “if someone is going to purport to speak for me, they had damn well better listen to and respect and understand my opinion” — but I don’t worry about that too much, ’cause I can go ’round and speak for myself just fine! 😉
And, A., you can call me “dear” without the quotation marks, any time — I take it as a compliment! Hell, I’ve lived in Texas for 11 years, and I giggle about how I reacted when I first moved here to people calling me “hon” — it’s all good, no worries!
Just for the record, my use of the word “dear” was merely a continuation of our personal remarks after supersoling’s shout-out to you through my comment on ej’s diary.
No southern context whatsoever (although I’m quite familiar with the various uses of “hon” and “dear” in certain parts of the nation – and have myself engaged in those various uses from time to time) But this ain’t one of those times.
Completely innocuous. Nothing to read between the lines. Just a simple “dear” in an attempt to elicit a smile.
pointing out that, should the spirit move you, that you didn’t have to include the quotation marks and I would still understand!
😉
Ahhhh. It just seems that in recent weeks the meanings and alleged hidden agendas related to “quotation marks” have elevated to a level I had never before known existed. So I jus’ wanted to circle back to confirm our mutual understanding.
Dear to dear. :^)
First of all, I think you’re talking about me as the one who troll-rated you a few times. As a poster said below, yes, I am a new member.
New member or not, if I could undo what I did, I would. It was wrong and I apologize. It would have been wrong for an old member to do it.
It was supremely hypocritical of me too, given the fact that I’ve been complaining about being troll-rated off dailykos. I turned around and did the same to you. I hope you’ll accept my apology.
Hi. Although not a complete “undoing” one thing you could do to help is to go back and re-rate those comments you troll rated. We all do things we regret later at some point in life. No worries.
I did not know that was possible. I will go do that. Thanks
You’re quite welcome. 🙂
I really appreciate the environment at Booman. Not too long ago I posted a diary that was somewhat critical of John Kerry. I knew from previous experience that I was inviting personal attack (I acknowledged as much in the post), but I felt strongly that this needed to be said. At another site where I cross-posted I was accused of being an agent of Karl Rove and much worse, even though I am clearly anything but a supporter of the Bush administration. The attacks were mean-spirited and beyond the pale.
The same thing might well have happened here, but the first time a comment like that was posted Booman stepped in and warned the poster that “we don’t do that here.”
People should feel free to say what they feel without being subjected to withering personal attacks that tend to miss the point and hijack the thread. Thanks Booman. Thans Susan.
jpol — I remember your Kerry thread, specifically because you and I adamantly disagreed on it and, although you obviously felt strongly (as did I), you were very nice about the whole thing. I really appreciated that discussion and it’s stayed in my mind. I hope I wasn’t obnoxious — I don’t remember being told off by Booman, at least! (maybe I should re-read before posting? …nah)
In any case, I almost threw you some twine in the other thread specifically for this incident, but I haven’t been around much lately so I wasn’t sure if you’d remember. I remember because I don’t mind arguments, but I hate fights. I think I’ve only been in two real disagreements over here — yours and one about Bono of all things — and I admired the way you handled yourself in that thread.
Also, ditto for your praise to Susan and Boo. Sorry things have been so stressful lately.
I appreciate this.
I expected to get some shit for that post, but the severity of many of the deeply personal and mean-spirited attacks really caught me off guard. Most of those were at the other site.
The fact that you and I can have a civil discussion while disagreeing about something just shows how unnecessary shrill name-calling is.
Despite all the debate going on about whether people should be free to act like “pricks” or not, I personally find the environment here much more satisfying because it rarely gets personal. Is that an environment we really want to change? I know I don’t.
Thanks for the kind words. We can disagree and still have respect for one another and call each other friend.
and I appreciate this post. I really do. This is what we needed to hear. That the door is still open and that you guys care (we know you do, but sometimes, in the written word and with stuff that happens and people finding out later it can seem arbitrary or people can start drawing their own conclusions and think that their speech will be stifled… or that they’ll just ‘disappear’ and no one will notice, or care).
I agree with everything you have written. As I said in the FBC, I disagree with 90% of what Parker writes in regards to dkos, but I do see where she is coming from & she has such a valuable voice on so many other issues I was very concerned it was being stifled because of her feelings about dkos or mydd or the easter bunny. It just sucked to lose her and I will stand up for people’s free expression of ideas until it literally hurts me. Then I walk away. But it seems to me that you guys are on the same wave length as well and I know how hard it is to stop things from spiraling out of control. It’s hard to make sure a community of so many are respectful to each other… because no one knows what the person who is sitting on the other side of the screen is really thinking or feeling, or what their motivations are… all we have are the written words.
We do what we can. We prod and poke and gently chide, but sometimes we need to say “there are rules, you don’t own the place and would you please stop vomiting on my bed”… or something like that. I hope Parker chooses to still participate and within the respectful bounds you guys have set up here. I would applaud that decision by her and by you for welcoming her back.
And now I’m going dancing in the cafe… 🙂
Parker’s been banned? Awww, crap. I guess I could have seen that coming, but she’s so much fun half of the time.
Wow. Maybe my three-day nap from here was too short. I’m going to get my stuffed animals and watch C-SPAN for a while longer, wake me up when we’re all friends again. I love this place and its regulars, so Peace everyone.
Thank you, Susan for your wise words. This blog has provided a home for all sorts of refugees over the last 6 months. I think that everyone has been made to feel welcome – many users have really put in an effort to make this a welcoming environment where (the rare) disagreements are worked out with respect.
The host has only set one rule. Why is it so incredibly hard for a few to abide by it…?
The few bannings I have seen earlier have not given second thought. But I must admit that I thought of this one on my way home from work tonight. I have often disagreed with parker (though, I don’t recall that we engaged in comments) -unnecessarily abrasive at times, but she has incredible knowledge and passion on many topics.
I hope she finds a way to convince you (management) that she is capable of living by just that one rule if given another try.
My view is biased. I am a free speech extremist, and I cannot claim to be any Ramsey Clark myself in the tact department, so with what face can I criticize someone else who is not, whether they are calling me names or someone else?
On the one hand, it is BooMan’s site, he is not bound by any amendments to Mr. Danger’s toilet paper, he can allow and disallow participation by anyone he chooses, he can allow or disallow discussion of any topic he chooses.
On the other hand, the sum of the parts is greater than the hole, and while BooMan may own it, it is the people who have created it, and who constitute it, and despite the many posters here who disagree with me, and are therefore wrong, it is, in my opinion, a more friendly spot for readers and thinkers than some of the larger blogs.
In the early days, I wrote a comment on the growth of blogs.
To expand on that, another aspect of growth that may be a challenge to blog owners is that growth and change does sometimes involve entities outside the blog.
BooMan Tribune may not be making money, but it is reasonable to suppose that at some point, this would be desired, and that could very well necessitate some difficult choices.
Because there is such a sense of community here, it is only natural that people would want to know when this occurs. I don’t see it as a question of refuting when wife-beating ceased, and I see no harm in some indication from BooMan on the question of whether there is an opportunity for the site to receive a benefit, and if that opportunity could be impacted by the content of comments.
It is true that not everyone would have the same opinion on that, but one of the things I admire about BooMan is that he is upfront about what he thinks, (even though he is dead wrong about most things), and I especially admire his disdain of framing.
I don’t always agree with Parker, but hers is a needed voice in the jihad on terrorism against women, and many other issues on which I do agree with her, and it is my hope that the aggrieved parties will be able to work things out.
You said it better than I could.
I am in agreement. I don’t even know what the controversey is about. A lot of what is going on around here in the past week or more has gone over my head. But I am a free speech extremist also. So banning, even for someone a bit prickly, would not be my hoped for solution.
could very well necessitate some difficult choices
Booman agrees with you.
I think his comments are very sensible.
What I don’t understand is why we are getting our knickers in a twist when somebody else brings up these issues.
Ugh, that link brought back bad memories. <_<
really, I am.
It’s ok ^_^
I agree with some of what Ductape Fatwa has written, so I shall confine my remarks to that with which I do not agree:
Booman Tribune is NOT a “community”.
In a “community”, all have a voice and there is group decision-making.
That is not an accurate description of Booman Tribune.
Here, the decisions about who gets to stay and who gets to go are made by one or two people.
This is private property, not a community. The notion that this blog, or any other, is a “community” is a dangerous fantasy that leads people to behave in inappropriate ways.
There was no public discussion of whether or not to ban Parker, or to give her a “time out”. I learned of Parker’s banning via a private email, and people here would not know of it if a couple of us hadn’t received those private emails and then posted the notice in a couple of diaries frontpaged by SusanHu.
I know, I know–“it’s Booman’s site and he can do whatever he wants and if you don’t like it, leave.” Been there, done that, had it printed on a T-shirt. That’s my bleedin’ point: this is PRIVATE PROPERTY, not COMMUNAL PROPERTY. Booman Tribune is NOT a community. Never has been.
Two things trouble me:
If this were truly a “community”, nobody would be above reproach or question.
“Community” has a variety of definitions, including:
Really depends on one’s definition as to whether Booman is a community or not.
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Have you ever had the experience of being part of a community where all are equal?
That would be quite something and I would really like to read about it. I am beginning to wonder if “democracy” is an ephemeral notion, like “heaven,” which many envision differently.
If you have been part of the kind of community you describe, how did it form? Is it ongoing? How long did it last? Why did it fall apart?
The point you make has really got me wondering about democracy and community. My questions are sincere.
This thread may not be the best place to respond, but please consider a diary.
Equal RIGHTS does not mean equal PARTICIPATION.
In theory, in the United States, everybody 18 years or older can participate equally in the political system by voting.
However, in practice, some people go above and beyond by being involved in organised groups (such as the ACLU), donating funds to various political/social causes, etc.
I don’t envision a “mobocracy” wherein every single matter would be given over to a vote of the entire community. Such a system would be unworkable in a community of any size.
Rather, I envision a representative democracy, in which people vote for those who will run the website. A legally-binding charter–call it a Constitution–would prevent the elected representatives from arbitrarily changing the rules to perpetuate or extend their own power.
What it would NOT be is one-person rule. The site founders would get things up and running, as the Founders of the US did, and once the website was on its feet, elections would be held and the site would be in the hands of “the people”.
Of course there are many questions to be answered, but the detail required is not available to us here, so I shall not explain further. I think you get the idea, don’t you?
What it would be? A government of laws, not men. It would be a system quite familiar to anyone who has lived in a representative democracy.
Would it always work perfectly?
No.
But, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, “Democracy is the worst form of government–except for all other forms of government.”
I just find it richly ironic that those in the liberal blogosphere continually advocate for greater democracy in the real world, but don’t practise it themselves.
A
Bollocks! “What would it be?” is what I meant to write above.
Writing without coffee the aid of I should not do. Apologise for mangling the language of English do I!
Really depends on one’s definition as to whether Booman is a community or not.
Quite so. It’s more accurate to say that the blogs aren’t democratic communities, they’re not democracies.
Sometimes the blog leadership fails, the worst aspects of human nature dominate and they become very petty and ugly.
Is this what the folks here want? Wouldn’t it be a good idea to discuss what went wrong? Because it’s clearly apparent that something went very wrong indeed.
OK, I know this is OT but it’s so good to “see” you! Where have you been or have I not been that observant?
I just knew there was a good reason for me to return to this diary…!!!
It’s good to see you too, Auntie Peachy:)
I’ve been occasionally posting on the blogs and reading Polling Report (it positively cheers me up), taking care of my father (who is 86 now and just had an operation) and one of my beloved sisters (who has also been ill), working on my career change (more and more I’m able to make my living writing and doing computer graphics which is good because my body’s getting too old for much physical work and it’s not as if retirement is an option. The cats are fine.
How are you doing?
You remind me of why I keep reading the blogs, because the folks I love keep writing on them.
As someone with an ill FIL (and hubby is an only child), I can most certainly sympathize. It can be draining, to say the least.
I’m doing OK. The hubby is fantastic, as always. I have a new SIL now who I’m just crazy about. Our fabulous nieces, and everyone else in the fam, are fine. The cats are good, too, esp. the brother cat in our brother-sister duo. He’s been a sick kitty w/ infections on top of his diabetes (no kidding) but now that he’s feeling better, he REALLY makes his presence known. It’s great to see.
And hooray that you’ve been able to do work on your own terms. Very, very cool.
Don’t want to hijack this more than I have so please feel free to drop me a line every now and again to techandscribeATgmailDOTcom. It’s just so good to see you!
AG
I’ll try again. (Sorry…hit the wrong button)
Yes.
I have run a (much) smaller forum…blog, call it what you will…for several years without banning ANYONE. Admittedly it is a forum about a professional specialty, and I HAVE banned spammers and scammers…Russian sex ads and the like…plus I have come on strongly enough to a couple of WAY off topic religious nuts (Not that “religion” is crazy or wrong…just stupid religion) that they have gone away to pray for divine guidance, but other than that…total freedom.
Say what you want about whatever you want in whatever manner you wish to express yourself, and let things fall where they may.
And it has WORKED.
It IS a community.
It takes no advertising…no paid ads, anyway, although various musicians post regularly to tell of their appearances, CDs, books, instruments for sale, etc…and it pays for its small self as far as I am concerned in increased sales of my own wares.
I too regret the lack of interconnectivity on the blogs regarding who stays and who goes, what’s allowed and what is not. But as these things get bigger, they necessarily get more expensive. And when money talks, it always seems as if SOMEONE has to walk.
For example…and this I NOT an anti-dKos statement that I am making here, simply a necessary reprint to make a point about blogs in general and BT in particular…when Susan stated as one of her points that:
I personally did not see that any accusations about “making a lot of money” were being leveled there.
Does anyone else hear that? (Please explain it to me if I am missing something. I did not take part in the original brouhaha.)
Here’s what I read.
Accusations of an attempt at accruing political power and position through the use of a blog?
Yes.
Accusations of sucking up to an owner of a blog that has quite considerable mainstream political media clout already?
Yes.
So what’s new? Do you think that is NOT happening over there? The owners are trying to help move the Democratic Party to a new center. A MAJORITY center. I think that their aim is too far to the right, myself, but I understand what they are doing, and I am in sympathy with their (conscious) motives. (I think…if I read them right.)
Susan…and I have seen this from her personally in other areas here…decided to read it another way (“…it’s not okay to accuse other bloggers of being in cahoots to make a lot of money.”), and the gavel fell.
GUILTY!!!
No trial, no jury of peers.
And I do not like the way that went down.
Sorry, Susan.
I think that you mis-read a great deal here. Booman, too.
AND…if you were NOT in a position of power, that fact wouldn’t bother me much at all. You write a lot of good stuff as well, but I believe that you are WAY overprotective. And overreactive, as well. If you were just another poster, I’d call you when I didn’t think you had it right. But you aren’t. So you have to be better than that. or the blog will suffer as a result of your overprotectivity.
That’s my take on it, anyway.
I know you mean well.
But you…and this blog…could stand to loosen up a little.
A little MORE.
Over and out…
AG
It might be my poor command of English, but here is what I’ve read:
For me
means that the poster accuses Booman and Susan of sucking up Kos (by asking to refrain from anti-kos comments) in order to obtain Blogads in the future.
Don’t you find this insulting?
I find this highly insulting!
M
It sounds to me like it is just about Kos and his power. He controls the dispersal blogads on dKos, and they help people to win elections. You want your people to win elections, you do not make an enemy of Kos.
Does BT even ADVERTISE on dKos?
Maybe…I never noticed.
AG
AG, have you ever clicked on the advertise liberally button to your left? It does not appear to me that Kos determines who places what ad where. YTou can check out dKos’ ad rates while you’re there.
BT hasn’t advertised on dKos, unless you count individual bloggers putting BT in their sig lines and crossposting.
No, I never had clicked on that button until just now.
But I do not connect what you are saying with the subject at hand. Maybe I am missing something.
Susanhu gave as one of her reasons for banning Parker one of Parker’s statements that said “The ONLY REASON people are sucking up to that twit [Kos] is because he seems to have been given the reigns to pass out potlitical favors in terms of Blogads for the upcoming elections.”
Now I suppose that means that Parker believes that if Kos likes your act, he can let you run an ad for free (or at least for reduced rates) on dKos.
No?
AG
P.S. By the way…thanks for pointing out that ad. In their copy they say that left blogworld readers have “a median income of $75K, and a median age of 40,” Not sure how they got those figures…if it’s involved in advertising, it’s liable to be bullshit, as we all know…but that is exactly what I have been saying in my NEWSTRIKE posts. That the demographic here is a VERY desirable one for advertisers, and that if we organizedly boycotted media outlets that were playing propaganda games (And their sponsors. ALL of their sponsors.), we could have a really serious impact.
Even considering that if each of the people who frequent the 6 blogs listed there log on to one or another of them 4 times a day, seven days a week, that’s about 275,000 people. I think that the number is probably substantially higher.
If 275,000 to 500,000 people publicly boycotted say CBS News or the NY Times or Newsweak and all of their advertisers…275,000 to 500,000 prime advertising targets, the majority of whom are adults in charge of families…the media would notice.
BIG time.
Bet on it.
It had very little to do with Parker, and more to do with your comment suggesting that BT had advertised on dKos.
I didn’t realize that Parker might be thinking that Kos would give away his advertising slots (which I doubt), but I did realize that most people don’t have a clue about how the advertising works (and I’m no expert by any means).
I did not suggest “that BT had advertised on dKos.”
Back to the top.
Melanchthon wrote:
“The ONLY REASON people are sucking up to that twit [Kos] is because he seems to have been given the reigns to pass out potlitical favors in terms of Blogads for the upcoming elections”
means that the poster accuses Booman and Susan of sucking up Kos (by asking to refrain from anti-kos comments) in order to obtain Blogads in the future.
Then I wrote that I had not read it that way, and as almost a rhetorical question I asked “Does BT even ADVERTISE on dKos? Maybe…I never noticed.”
As in “No, why would they do that if they do not advertise there. Not as far as I have ever noticed, anyway.”
So that’s clear, at least.
Right?
And thank you for opening my eyes to the abvertising thing. I am generally so ANTI-advertisnng…having made my living for a few years performing advertising music in NYC (“Whadda buncha maroons!!!”, as Bugs Bunny would have said.) that I just pay the whole system no mind when at all possible other than to condemn it.
If Mohammed were alive now he would have included advertising with usury on his ban list. It is institutionalized, highly developed lying.
On every level past “I have goods. Come see.”
End of mini-thread. I think?
AG
Okay, logic problem. Your definition of community seems to be that it can only exist in a consensus decision making process. Many here don’t agree with that definition of community, meaning it’s not a consensus definition. So, by your own logic, it’s a fatally flawed definition of community, i.e. a non-communal one. As far as I can tell, you’re using exactly the tactics you claim to abhor to argue your position, i.e. my way of defining community is the only right way to do so, despite the fact that the community doesn’t agree with me. Now, you’re certainly welcome to make whatever assertions you want to about what you believe the word community means. But it would seem to me that until you truly address the idea that not everyone agrees with that definition, your argument lack a certain amount of intellectual honesty.
can’t argue with that logic. Outstanding stuff.
Someone in the neighborhood invites a bunch of us into his or her house. We are having a great conversation about politics or religion or whatever. If someone starts getting out of hand, ruining the conversation for the rest of the folks, the host has the perfect right (responsibility?) to tell the person that the behavior in question is not allowed in that house and if it does not stop, to ask the person to leave.
This does not mean there is not a community, just that folks have a right to set the rules in their own house. What we share is a community of ideas. As guests, we share them here at BT. And the hosts here have the same right to set house rules. It may mean that BT is not a commune, but it does not negate the continuing existence of the community.
I have to say that I have always admired Parker’s passion, and been glad for all the diaries she has written to make us more aware of the across-the-aisles war on women. Sometimes she’s a bit abrasive (and over-the-top), but I think it comes more from enthusiasm and passion. And she makes me think, even when it is uncomfortable to do so. And I loved her cafe last Wednesday.
I’m glad the door is still open.
We need to be as adult and as rational as we can be.
Then I suggest you stop responding to emailing tattletales with front page posts.
You are encouraging cliques here, the same type saying the same things that ruined Daily Kos.
Huh?
I have no idea what you’re talking about.
But, if you’re trying to assert that someone e-mailed me, that’s not true. (It’s really hard to be responsive to accusations that are unsubstantiated … unless you know about an e-mail I got that I don’t know about.)
or perhaps telephoned…by front pagers pitching a bitch in OTHER instances, have you not, Susan?
AG
If you didn’t “receive reports” via email–then how, pray tell, did you receive them? Owls from Hogwarts?
Now I wonder where we could find the Black Lodge.
First line in “We Don’t Do That Here”:
I’m getting reports that there’s some bashing of DKos or its front-pagers here.
I assumed these reports came via email.
Here’s how I see it. One poster’s friend posts a diary that was strongly criticized by others. That poster then puts up a rant about how wrong that was, and another argument ensued.
The next thing I see is your front-pager about bashing Kos. I have the impression that most of the reported Kos bashers were also the ones involved in the argument over the diary.
Seems to me there’s a group here that moved to take out posters they don’t like. And used you to do it.
Looks to me as if that group acted spitefully out of personal pique, just like Mean Girls, hence my reaction to your sentence about acting like adults.
Actually, the whole Kos issue sounds juvenile to me:
Sounds like a bunch of sixth-grade girls to me.
Believe me, I admire you, the Booman, and other fine contributors here; I visit every day I’m online.
So here is my advice.
First. Stay out of the overblown Kos issue. Politely brush off complaints from Kossacks — what, they don’t have enough to do with the hundreds of daily diaries there without combing the threads here for heresy? I personally wouldn’t answer for anyone but myself WRT Kos-bashing, and both you and BooMan have indicated you don’t encourage it.
Second. Stay out of the battles between posters here as much as you can. By stepping in, you add fuel to the fire and encourage it. And eventually, you’ll have to take action, with the only tool in your box the banning of posters. Depending on what type of site you’re trying to grow, and, of course, if you’re even trying to grow it, that’s a poor tool to use.
I appreciate your perspective on things, Mary, and your view MAY be the correct one. It may very well be that all this is petty, personal, and much ado about not much.
Allow me to interject a much different perspective, in which Parker’s banning is a small piece of a very large struggle for the soul of the liberal/progressive blogosphere–specifically, that one Markos Moulitsa of DailyKos is trying to set himself up as a “kingpin” and “power player” in that blogosphere–a man answerable to no one but himself.
Parker questioned the financial ties between Booman Tribune and DailyKos. These questions of finances arise from several facts:
1. The founding of Liberal Blog Advertising
Network, a group of 75 liberal sites organized by Markos Moulitsas of Daily Kos and Chris Bowers and Jerome Armstrong of MyDD under the guidance of BlogPAC, a political action committee that Moulitsas and
Armstrong began in 2004. It appears that the LBAN, like many a Markos-initiated scheme, is one designed to further his own financial well-being, a “one blog to rule them all” strategy that he has pursued from Day One.
2. The lack of transparency in the financing of blogs. Know what sends Markos and Armando into a blind, foaming-at-the-mouth panic? ANY questions about their finances–where the money comes from. That is why Mr. Moulitsa is lobbying hard for DailyKos to get a media exemption, so that he will not fall under proposed financial disclosure regulations for blogs that Senator Russ Feingold of Wisconsin (to name one person) prefers.
It’s all explained much better by Rogers Cadenhead here:
http://www.cadenhead.org/workbench/news/2806/my-due-diligence-liberal-ad-network
An excerpt:
Bowers personally invited me to join the network in May 2005, sending several e-mails until I agreed to become one of its founding members. I thought it was a good way to bring liberal blogs closer together and make some money in the 2006 election year, so I’ve been working on it for six months, running the network’s “Advertise Liberally” ad on the Retort 6.5 million times during that span and setting up a private blog for members.
Liberal Blog Advertising NetworkThe network has been experiencing a double super-secret flamewar since Bowers announced in mid-October that they were unilaterally changing the rules in a way that excludes several well-trafficked members, including the Retort, Raw Story and Smirking Chimp.
At this time next year, I planned to be sunning on the deck of a new yacht bought with political ad riches, thanks to our country’s lack of meaningful campaign finance reform. I saw myself picking up the New York Times, reading about the newly elected Democratic majority in both houses of Congress, the first day of Karl Rove’s prison term and the Texas Rangers’ victory in the World Series.
Instead, I’ve just given six months of effort and free ad space worth $2,200 to a liberal ad network that’s now my competition.
Some conservatives will have a field day with this, suggesting that liberal bloggers don’t know the business world because we’re up in our ivory towers smoking medicinal marijuana as we search for gay spotted owls who want to get married. But things could be worse for the liberal ad network — it could be Pajamas Media.
I think the moral of this story is simple: Practice due diligence before getting into business with Moulitsas, Armstrong and Bowers. A trait that makes them entertaining bloggers — a talent for getting into fights they don’t need to have — doesn’t translate well to making a network of weblogs advertiser friendly.
I realized this a few weeks ago when Moulitsas used the Daily Kos front page to threaten potential advertisers:
… campaigns should advertise on blogs to reach readers, not to “endorse” the publication. We’re bloggers. We’ll say things that are “controversial”. If campaigns don’t think they can weather such storms, then by all means they should NOT advertise on blogs.
Because every time a campaign freaks out at a blogger and pulls their ads, we’re going to raise a stink about it and inevitably make that campaign look bad. So they should think long and hard before putting money into a Blogad campaign.
My jaw dropped when I read this response to the Kaine gubernatorial campaign in Virginia, which pulled an ad from Steve Gilliard because of his provocative depiction of an African-American politician in blackface. The political situation for a Democrat in a tight race, days before the election, was less important than a blogger’s need to keep it real.
Moulitsas can afford to say crazy shit like that, because Democratic politicians view Daily Kos as an ATM machine and assembly line for grass-roots liberal activists. He charges $1,400 a week for ads and regularly sells 6-8 of them.
For the rest of the 75-minus-me members in the liberal ad network, “don’t pull an ad or we’ll hurt you” is a bit of a tough sell.
That’s a whole different can o’ worms, Shadowthief, IMO. I do think that’s why Parker drew so much attention, but that is pure speculation on my part.
My take on Kos remains the same as it was a year ago: he wants to make a living blogging and wants to become a power player in the Dem party. He uses the Daily Kos community to do that.
I choose not to support that, so I don’t go there to give him hits. Daily Kos = WalMart to me, except that I still care about what WalMart is up to and I could care less about what Kos does. Others have a different view. End of story.
I don’t really care about DKos, either, Mary…because Markos hasn’t an original thought in his head, and so long as the Democratic Party (and Markos) treat Democratic Party supporters as if they were human ATM machines, they will continue to fail. Anybody who treats folk as badly as Moulitsa does, and aspires to leadership, is doomed to failure.
In fact, I would submit that DailyKos has ALREADY failed. If the Republicans are ousted from power, it won’t be because of DailyKos, but rather in spite of it and Markos’ associates.
In other words, DailyKos isn’t organising for victory–it’s organising for Moulitsa to carve out some power and money for himself. I came to that conclusion a long time ago, and quit the place.
I suppose my complaints about Mr. Moulitsa–questioning his competency as well as his motives–may well generate more of those surreptitious emails that only the privileged few here read. I suppose that the above complaint may even get me banned from here. But what will be, will be.
You make good points. I think banning should be reserved for only people that are trying to destroy the site that they are posting on. Please don’t hamper discussion of issues. And one issue that will become more important is money’s influence on the blogsphere. That issue should never be off limits.
Your advise, the “First” and “Second” points, were right on target. Right on target.
I’m new here and so far it feels like nannies are always there in the background, making sure the children play nicely together.
To me, the best way to move the Left forward is to make sure that our arguments are solid, and the best way to do that is to have robust debate amongst ourselves so that when we debate right-wingers, we’ll be better prepared, and in less danger of saying something stupid and getting called on it.
Babying this community does a disservice to it.
Susan,
Are you sure you want to make the claim that you have not been emailed by someone? I’m pretty sure you were emailed by someone right after you emailed him first.
You are so right… so next time we’ll all be sure to pile on all the LSF’s who come here just to reco each others diaries & bring their war against dkos here… and all the ePluribus Media folk who do the same reco diaring thing… or were those not the “cliques” you were refering to?
… and yes, I was answering a prickish comment with one of my own. I am so sick of this shit. Grow up, we have real issues to fight over don’t we?
I don’t know anything about the email aspect of all this, but I agree with the general sentiment of your comment.
Have a 4.
AG
I just wanted to apologize to the Booman community in general for my part in yesterday’s heated discussion. I think this is one of the most terrific places on the internet, and I sincerely am sorry for any disruption my intrusion into the discussion yesterday caused.
I can see how my sashaying in from DK and imposing my feelings on a thread that had nothing to do with me caused a lot of problems. Sorry sorry sorry. I hope this usually quiet, peaceful and intelligent niche of the internet thrives, expands and flourishes.
Peace to all.
That’s really nice of you to say.
BY THE WAY: I have left the door open. I did not slam the door. The first response I got was not very promising, but I’m willing to wait and to listen.
She asked you a direct question. You said you had no response. Has this changed?
Lastly: We try. Sometimes we fail. Sometimes we constructively influence people’s style of communicating on the blog.
Parker will be out of town for a week, so I’ll look out for your bulletin on failure next week.
Why I keep seeing all these recommended diaries on this subject is beyond me.
Unless someone is grossly abusing other community members, and being consistently troll-rated for it, a banning seems out of line.
For clarification, I meant all these recommended diaries on community strife between here and DKos, and how saying this-and-that about so-and-so bothers such-and-such, etc…not necessarily on the subject of this specific individual’s banning.
Well, that would seem reasonable enough. I guess it all depends on how we define “reasonable.”
and a special thanks to SusanG for being oh so classy. There are already cliques here..I just hope in the future people here can respect each other and really try and not be prickish or pricklike to not only the Tribbers but also to some of us that belong to the Dkos community and also belong here. I hope the grudge match can cease. I think Diane101 suggested, that the folks who must continue to talk ill of Dkos find a different outlet to do it at. Stay here at the Trib, but perhaps start another venue of there own to blow off steam when need be. Even though I have had my differences with Parker in the past I hope she can take the high road, observe the “No Smoking sign” and rejoin the community here. Her’s is a voice like no other. Her diaries and passion are astounding. No place is perfect but we must strive to continue to Respect each other along with our Booman and our Outstanding Front pagers. I believe Susanhu lost her Mother last week, the least we can do is be a little more compassionate, instead of causing her stress, not only towards her but each other. Peace to all.
I’m not looking for an argument, but I have to disagree.
To say a group is a clique is to claim that it is exclusive. And the BoomanTribune is not an exclusive community.
There are people who have formed friendships with each other. Some of us may feel closer to certain people than others. But that is a very different thing than a clique. Because everyone I know here is always happy to have a new friend join in.
The Froggy Bottom Cafe was invented specifically to make sure there is always a place for us to informally chat and To Welcome Newcomers. It replaced the Original Welcome Wagon (although Occasional Welcome Wagons are still posted). A lot of thought, committment and energy goes into keeping the Cafe open every day. We have rotating hosts whose job it is to welcome newcomers (as they reveal themselves) and bring them into the conversations.
Newcomers have always been welcomed here.
I had a great time at the dance tonight over at the Froggy bottom. I think you misunderstood my comment or felt I was directing it at the cafe folks. I was not. That place is the most positive, funloving, great vibes, creative place with not only the coolest people but the funnest people on the internet. Not to mention a techie was on hand to help me with my computer problems. Please take no offense.
Chamonix1, I didn’t take offense at all — it’s just that I’ve seen that c word several times the past few days and you just happened to use it at a time when I was prepared to discuss it.
And discuss it with someone I felt comfortable talking to because we’ve hung out together at the FBC.
That c word bothers me in a personal way because I am by nature shy and not outgoing so it’s easy for me to fall into the habit of talking only to people I know pretty well. Which could, if I let it lead to a cliqueish perspection of me. And that’s one reason hosting the cafe is important to me — it forces me out of that pattern.
And I appreciate your opinion that the FBC works on that level.
But, I still contend that the word clique doesn’t really apply here at the BoomanTribune. Because cliques are defined by exclusivity. And if there any exclusive groups operating here, I haven’t seen it.
Am I just that oblivious? I’m curious because you are not the only person to use the term. And I’m usually pretty sensitive to them (not in a good way).
That word bothers me too. It reminds me of junior high when all the popular girls hung out together and excluded the others. I agree with you that exclusivity is the key and I don’t see anyone being excluded here; everyone is encouraged to join in. Especially true in the FBC where newcomers are treated warmly and the regulars are excited to get to know them.
I am bothered by the perception that dissent is always prickish. Do we really want to be a bunch of ditto heads, preaching to the choir all the time? Or do we want healthy, substantive debate taking place? It seems that, like children, some of us are better at disagreeing with class and dignity than some others.
I hope she can take the high road, observe the “No Smoking sign”
I’m not optimistic. Parker is an activist, as far as I can tell. Her Circle of Concern/Circle of Influence is very telling, IMO. Many of you have mentioned that you are indeed part of her Circle of Influence — except for one thing — despite the fact that this is a member site of the liberal blogosphere, we cannot criticize or question.
Now that may be fine for you, and for others, but if you try suppressing the opinions — and that’s all they are — of an activist who considers the liberal blogosphere part of her Circle of Influence, then you are neutering her. And that’s what banning is: neutering.
All of you mention her passion in highly complimentary terms. Some of the things you don’t like come with the package. Either you accept the entire package or you reject it. It’s really that simple.
That along with the bits about neutering opinion are well worth highlighting. The message is clear: if you’re deemed “naughty” for god knows what reason, you will be neutered. And it isn’t just the person herself who is neutered: it’s the whole friggin’ blog that is neutered. It’s the chance to grow, the chance to confront alternative perspectives that is neutered. Personally I find that unacceptable, but I’m funny that way.
AG
Picking up and expounding on your point of the whole package.
If you give a party at your house and you have a guest that is intelligent and conversant on politics but becomes tiresome and rude and other guests were offended and leaving would you consider it appropriate or respectful of that guest to act in this manner and if you did not, would you not have every right to first ask the guest to tone it down and if that did not happen ask the guest to leave. And would you ask the guest to your next party, would you be willing to put up with the rudeness or whatever in order to hear said guests salient points.
In any case I cannot for the life of me figure out how it can be acceptable for someone to go to anothers home and behave in a way that is unacceptable to the host, and then continue that behavior after being asked to suspend, why would you even go if you could not be respectful and why should the host want you to stay.
Seems like it ruins the party for everyone.
Is the package static and cannot alter itself in any way to conform to the requests of the party giver.
Seems like this place is Boomans party and he should be respected…
life of me figure out how it can be acceptable for someone to go to anothers home and behave in a way that is unacceptable to the host
My perception only — this site’s primary id is that of a political site. I grew up in a very political household. When I was a kid, I remember political gatherings at the house that would get quite heated — always over the same things: direction of party; what is influencing whom; how to beat the enemy. I can recall my father getting so angry that he’d pound his fist on tables. Voices were raised and cigars were smoked well into the 2:00 am hour. A week later, they were at it again.
I don’t disagree with your comments about having an unpleasant guest at a party. I’m looking at this from the point-of-view of what constitutes political discourse. We all agree that beating the enemy is an acceptable topic. Some of the topics that are not permitted by the host of the party are normally part of political discourse, and with this action involving one of our members, a line has been drawn.
Is the package static?
Speaking for myself only, what I wonder is: to what extent should the package conform to community standards?
For example, if the package is abrasive in tone at times, perhaps one could find instances where the package hasn’t been treated too well, either. In this case, I think it’s very possible for all packages involved to shape-shift a little bit.
However, conforming to the extent that its fundamental shape is lost means the package is no longer the package. Again, political discourse does involve working through the issues within your Circle of Influence.
Was the problem political discourse or doing something the host specifically requested the guest not to do, guest did not comply..The host sets the standards he wants his guests to comply with, and I think a guest who does not comply, should not be forced upon the host no force himself, no matter how much anyone thinks the guest has to offer.
The guest is not the only one with pov’s and his/hers are no more important or brilliant than anyone else’s. We will all survive without hearing it. I for one would rather be at a party where people respected the requests of the host and would be uncomfortable with one who did not and I would leave the party.
As to shape shifting, the other guests at the party house did seem to do a bit of that, but that is really not the issue in this case, it’s about the request of the host, at his own party
My suggestion is that Booman should put this in a very large scrolling banner across the top of this site, displayed on every page in the largest font possible:
THIS IS PRIVATE PROPERTY, NOT A COMMUNITY.
I have no problem with people being asked to leave, or to take a time out–if it is a community decision.
It is never a community decision, it’s always done by Booman alone or by Booman in consultation with SusanHu.
So–in what sense are we a “community”? A community has joint obligations and rights. We are a “community” when this blog needs financial support, but it’s “private property” when an important decision needs to be made.
I have no problem with Booman Tribune being private property–in which case we do need to stop using the word “community”, unless one is being sarcastic or ironic.
So, what about making an experiment: start your own blog and try to build a community following your definition of it (joint obligations and rights, common decision-making, no specific power for the “owner”…).
I’ll gladly participate in it.
I’ve been thinking about an experiment along just those lines for some months, as a matter of fact.
Know what the model for such a community would be? The United States Constitution, complete with an explicit bill of rights and a separation of powers. It’s a system that works.
Something tells me, that if the owner-centric blogs continue on as they have (and I’m not writing about Booman Tribune now, but about the liberal blogosphere in general), I will have a flood of refugees at such a site.
Would the experiment succeed? Fail? Who knows. But it’ll be interesting to try.
Would the experiment succeed? Fail? Who knows. But it’ll be interesting to try
Please, do!
Please go ahead – the sooner the better.
Hm, the hostility to democracy in the blogosphere would be too funny if it weren’t so very sad.
I’m still waiting for that famous Americanism: “Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.”
I wonder–what if a group of people here all said they agreed with the statement that got Parker banned? Would they be banned, as well? How many people is SusanHu prepared to ban over that statement? Just one, as an example, or a few, as an example?
It doesn’t end with Parker, you know. Agree or disagree with Parker, it doesn’t end there.
No, it’s only just beginning.
I had a different sentiment last night (see my comment towards the top). This morning, having seen the concerted effort to disrupt ths blog – my feelings have changed…
I’ve missed the underlying debate here, but… I agree wholeheartedly that the “don’t let the door hit you in the ass” and the “we’re guests in someone’s home” arguments are out of place in a public forum. I do think there are instances where community standards must be enforced. I am sick of the spam that takes place regularly at the Huffington Post. I would support banning those who repeatedly violate that community standard.
The “don’t be a prick” community standard is subjective, like pornography. Perhaps the way to resolve any question is to have a cooling off period, and a detached, objective review before taking any action.
I am NOT against banning of disruptive people.
I AM against the process by which it is done–specifically, in which one or two people decide, for reasons of their own, to ban somebody without any public announcement or discussion, without any clear rules established beforehand, and without any due process either to contest the proposed banning or to appeal it.
This could, and should, be handled differently.
This procedure would include a standard method of complaint, arguments for and against the banning made by those parties who favour and oppose it (including the person who proposes the banning and the person whom they want banned), as well as a procedure for appeal. The banning decision would be made by a group of people who are not partisan in the matter.
Sound familiar? Confrontation of one’s accuser? Due process? Clear list of charges? Jury of your peers? Right of appeal? It’s all in the United States Constitution.
If it’s good enough for the United States of America, I say it’s good enough for Booman Tribune.
You said:” The United States Constitution, complete with an explicit bill of rights and a separation of powers. It’s a system that works.”
Well, “we the people” are only taken into account when they nned votes, or to collect taxes.
And, just like here there is one person who decides,(either by signing or vetoing the bills.)
Rules , Laws and Obligations exist whereever you go.
Actually, millions of people vote for President, for the members of Congress, and there is a separation of powers (which Bush has tried to demolish, but unsuccessfuly, as Mr. Fitzpatrick has shown)–so what’s this about “one person” making a decision?
The President of the United States is NOT a dictator. The people have rights–he has tried to take some of those rights away, and the people have resisted.
Here, there are no curbs on the authority of the sovereign.
First, that people vote for someone does not mean that it is not a dicatatorship. Saddam went to the ballot box, got 99% of the votes, and he is still a dictator
Similarly you could read Marx and find out that there is a thing called the dictatorship of the majority, that is the dictatorship of democracy (and that is what we are living here today)
Secondly, that Bush is not a dictator is your opinion. Mine is different. I truely think he is one.
As for the democratic process, it is very clear that congress can debate all they want to, the fact is still the same:The president can overturn that democratic decision with a stroke of his pen, regardless of how many people support that bill. He is the one that has the power to pass or not pass.
All I am trying to say that nothing in this world is perfect. You will always have one at the top, and a whole bunch below. You will always find rules, and laws. That is fact in every society, whether we like it or not.
You know what I think the community is unraveling,
It is not our God give right to come to a site (paid for and it does cost money to keep this blog running and Booman is the one who does that paying) and insist that the site conform to anyones own particular perspective. It is also not anyone’s God given right to participate in a blog anymore than one has a right to crash a party or be disrespectul to the host.
If anyone wants a site that everyone can do or say as they please then let them go to the pain, expense and trouble to put their own up and then make the rules they want or try this, make a site with no rules and see what happens. If you or anyone are willing to put up that money then you can do as you please but don’t expect someone else, say Booman to foot the bill and then not be allowed to make his own rules.
Community is what one makes, and we are and we can call it that or we can call it that without insisting we be management or voting rights.
So please all you disgruntled people start your own blogs.
Genie’s out of the bottle, now. So it goes.
Someone who is writing something I agree with 100%. I feel like I have gone crazy here. I feel like a coup is happening. I have been living it the past few days…being called a Moron..being ganged up upon by the gang. It’s like a horror movie. I came here from an invitation from Booman while at Dkos. I was not a refugee, not a disgruntled Kossack. Not someone who had been banned from other bloggs. Booman had a dream and I loved his diaries at Dkos and wanted to experience his dream with him. I have not experienced this kind of stuff (just mean angry bitter jealous people since high school.) YES…they should all start their own anti kos blog…they should just call it that…clearly Bushco is not the bad guy or enemy…some of us are..that is who they want to take out. I am disgusted by some of these people that have no respect for not only themselves, but for others. Thank you for being a voice that is up now that I can feel calmed by. You are a gem.
There is no coup happening. Yeah, I think you got a raw deal the last couple days, and it was beyond the pale. But coup? Hardly. Just a lot of bewildered folks who don’t quite understand the apparently newly revised groundrules. So it goes.
As for the anti-kos thing, I will say for what seems like the thousandth time: it strikes me as minimal at best – tempest in a teapot material. The best way to change that is simply to keep calling attention to it and make a BIG FUSS about it. I suspect that the handful who have made a big fuss over what was minimal will have succeeded in creating a crisis that didn’t previously exist, nor should have existed.
Oh well whatever nevermind.
but james…it seems that (if you took a poll) you would see that the vast majority of folks here have come from Dkos as refugees or have been banned or disillusioned by other liberal bloggs. I feel because I blog at dkos, and kindly asked someone to consider taking down their out of date diary that I was some sort of undercover evil kossack that had slipped through the cracks. Not only were people trolling me, but they were slamming 4’s on anyone who commented against me. Not that had nothing to do with my asking someone to consider taking down a diary..it had to do with it being something those “Evil Kossacks” do everyday. Any truly that was the furtherest thing from my mind. And I got hammered for about 24 hours..if that is not dkos bashing I don’t know what is? This had nothing to do with me and everything to do with hostile feelings with Dkos, their way of life and anger towards anyone who might blog there. Instantly I represented the worst of Dkos, I represented banning people, hating woman, pie ads, front page posters ….I was the anti christ. They didn’t even know who I was and I was instantly shat upon. Tried to run me out of town. Now these same people are willing to stand in front of a bus for their dear Parker. Perhaps if you look at it a little from my perspective you will understand where I am coming from. Dkos will always be an issue here, as the majority of the people here either left there unhappy or were banned..That is my take…maybe I am wrong.
I would like to offer you a second apology (see above post for the first) for being the one who called you a moron. I am really sorry I said that. I think there are times when insults are called for, but you certainly didn’t say anything to me that justified how I reacted.
My only defense is that I was run out of dailykos.com by a bunch of McCarthyists and it left a horrible taste in my mouth for that community. I took it out on you. I am very sorry.
Once again, could we please put this in a scrolling banner across the top of every page?
THIS IS PRIVATE PROPERTY, NOT A COMMUNITY.
It would save a lot of time.
I think you are right diane. Very sad.
Look at who rated this comment – draw your own conclusions.
they’re on to us!
Indeed, it’s been quite evident since the weekend (give or take a couple)…
Indeed, it’s been quite evident since the weekend (give or take a couple)…
Do you think you could take the time to be more clear about what the ‘it’ is in the above sentence? Because I’ve no notion what you’re talking about.
Hello.
That this in unproductive:
I’m getting reports that there’s some bashing of DKos or its front-pagers here.
gets a ‘4’ from me. And some appear to have to much time on their hands. HTH.
will i think you’re wrong.
and who are you by the way?
THE RATING POLICE?
It’s the Spanish Inquisition.
“nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!”
Community is what one makes
And that “one” would be Booman I take it? Since he’s footing the bills? He alone can insist that the site conform to his wishes, or those of his select committee. Because that IS what’s happening. Here’s a news flash. This site would not exist without its membership, and I expect far fewer of those bills would be paid without the content provided by the members and the page-views that sell the advertising. Without our eyeballs, it is a tree falling in an empty wood.
If this site is falling apart you can’t blame it on the membership, if the membership isn’t making the big decisions. Heavy hangs the head that wears the crown, and all that. So perhaps it would be a good idea to take a long hard look at what these weighty decisions have wrought.
Shadowthief is right. To call this a community and, in the same breath, announce that it’s members can conform to rules or vote with our feet is comical.
In the background, I can hear Lord Farquaat making his “perfect” pronouncements to protect his lovely Duloc. My four year old is watching “Shrek.” It’s a lovely instructional on the dangers of tyranny and the beauty of non-conformity. It’s about an ogre who is gruff and rude. A lot of people don’t like him and he lives in an exile that is both imposed and self-imposed because he doesn’t fit into a perfect world. The message of the movie is that he is valuable; that we all are no matter how odd or ugly or frightening we might appear. I recommend it.
Wait, are you comparing me to “Shrek”? Well, that’s the last time I send YOU a photograph of myself!
I wonder if the only way to remedy the money issue is for members to support the site? Taxes…small ones…citizen of sorts?
No taxation without representation. But I’d gladly pay a levy if I got a vote of some sort. Sign me up for that.
It’s a community that willfully accepts the rules that the owner asks us to respect. We also willfully accept and respect the right of the owner to enforce these few simple rules. Your argument that somehow a community has to be a pure construct according to YOUR rules is way over the top, imho.
According to YOUR rules, a community could never exist in a dictatorial country. I guess all those Chinese people have no communities. I guess any tribal system that confers the title of leader to the eldest son of the leader upon his death is not a community. I doubt that there have been any “communities” in existence, EVER on the face of our planet, if your definition is so rigid.
Now as to the topic at hand, the banning of an individual. It seems to me that if someone, anyone, repeatedly violates the rules of our community, we expect the leader(s) to take action. If they do not take action, they have broken the contract that they have made with us about the kind of community that we choose to participate in. At which point, I dare say, many of us who had valued the rules and the leaders of such a community would leave to find other communities where we might feel more comfortable with the rules and the leaders. Some of us might leave to become leaders of our own communities, with different rules.
As to the specific individual that was banned, I have no comment, as I have not followed the individual’s posts carefully enough to have a fully informed opinion. However, as a self-chosen member of this community, I have acceded the right to ban someone to the leaders that I am comfortable with. I have seen, heretofore, no pattern of abuse of power. That’s my opinion, I own it, and I’m sticking to it and to BT.
Communities come in many different flavors, not just the flavor you favor.
So you prefer to live in a dictatorship?
Not me. I’d rather not live in a community where I must bow my knee to another man. It’s not in my nature to kneel and kiss the ring of the sovereign.
My wife grew up in the old Soviet Union–and, ironically, the Communists worked to destroy any sense of community by stripping the people of any role in the decision-making of their community.
So to answer your rhetorical question–No, I do NOT consider a gathering of people a “community” when only one or two of them make all the decisions, and the others are expected to submit or depart.
This is particularly galling in light of the fact that so many here make financial contributions, as well as the considerable contribution of their valuable time writing diaries–both contributions sustain Booman Tribune and make it worthwhile.
No, I did not say that I would prefer to live in a dictatorship. That you insinuated such is just another example of your over the top commentary on this thread. I am simply pointing out that your particular definition of community is not the one that resides in any dictionary I’ve ever seen. It is of course your prerogative to highjack a word and bend it to your own cynical purposes, but that doesn’t mean that I will agree with your new self-made definition.
Acceding to a set of rules and choosing one blog-leader that suits my tastes among all the possible rules and blog-leaders is not giving my life over to dictatorship. I can leave if I want. That is not a dictatorship. Dictatorships don’t usually let you leave when you want to. They don’t even let you whine about the rules or the leaders.
If it’s so galling to you that people give money to support this site but don’t have voting rights on who to ban, then just don’t give any money and just leave. No one’s stopping you. It will help your personal health to just leave rather than have your soul tortured by the thought that BT is not perfect.
Leave, and don’t the door hit you on the ass on the way out! I was WONDERING when somebody was going to get around to saying that!
No, it’s not going to be that easy. I know you would like it to be, but the easy way is rarely the best way.
Once again, I would find it amusing, if it weren’t so very tragic, that people come to the “liberal” and “progressive” blogosphere complaining about Bush’s subversion of democracy (stealing two presidential elections, for example)–and then argue most vociferously against implementing even the rudiments of democracy IN the blogosphere.
You don’t do irony, do you, mate? You really don’t grasp the implications of what you’re saying.
Let me turn the tables on you: if YOU don’t like people advocating for change and complaining about what they do not like, then YOU should leave and go somewhere people don’t complain. When you find that earthly Eden, do remember to write to us and describe the place. As far as I know, it doesn’t exist and never has. Unless people are zombies, they have different opinions and therefore disagreements arise.
The question here is, who should settle these disagreements? One person, or should it be done in a more democratic fashion?
And by the way, a right of complaint without any rights to redress those grievances is absolutely meaningless, so don’t wave THAT in my face. I could be banned in the next five seconds without explanation or due process, and you damn well know it.
I’ve begun to realise that many people are frankly uncomfortable with freedom–that many people PREFER to live in a situation where things are arranged for them and they’re told what to do and how to behave, without any voice in the process. Quite a few of them have shown their true colours in these past few days on Booman Tribune.
You were not wondering when somebody will tell you you could leave, in fact you were almost begging for it…
One thing funny: did you notice that, for all your claims to be in a dictatorship, no one even downrated you…
Freedom of speech is not so bad here…
I’m not a fan of the rating system. It’s a tool for bullying.
It didn’t take Booman Tribune long to breed the same sort of atmosphere that ran so many people out of DailyKos. Here we have Melanchthon playing the role of Plutonium Page and other self-appointed “enforcers”, trying to intimidate me.
Well, you’re not doing a very good job. I’m a decorated veteran of the “pie wars” you know. I fended off a couple dozen of Markos’ online Ton Ton Macoutes with one hand whilst eating lemon meringue pie with the other. I’ll wait here while you go fetch some reinforcements. Oh, and bring me a fork–I’m hungry for pie.
Putting words into my mouth in order to achieve your own ends is much more dictatorial than anything about this blog. YOU said that I told you to leave. I did nothing of the sort. I said IF you are so galled, it might help your personal health to leave and start your own blog or find one that is to your liking.
I don’t buy that you are doing anything more here than shit-stirring. If you were serious about your proposal to change this blog, you could put up a diary in which you pose the question in a straightforward manner, as a possible means of improving BT. You could even have a poll, to see how many of us agree with you. If you get lots of support, I am sure Booman and the powers that be – that you are so actively slamming – would take notice. Instead, you insult everyone who disagrees with you and act as though you are god’s gift to BT.
Your pronouncements that those of us who are happy to participate in a non-perfect community are somehow defective is so arrogant it’s funny.
I think just as soon as you start paying the bills here and doing all the work that Boo and Susan do, then you can run this blog anyway you want to. If this is such a big freakin deal to you go out and buy your own blog space, buy your software, set it all up, keep upgrading servers to handle the growth. . .then By golly THEN you can run the darn thing any way you want to.
Seems pretty simple to me.
Can’t imagine why you wish to be a member here when it is so offensive to you how it is run.
We are at war.
Maybe that is the real point of contention here.
Somewhere, right now, someone’s brains are being splattered up against a stone wall because of the vast set of mistakes that America has made over the last several years.
Several decades in many senses.
And somewhere, right now, literally millions of peoples’ lives are being seriously negatively affected by the attitudes that are prevalent in this society.
Including sexism, which i gather was Parker’s main topic.
What was it old Barry Goldwater said?
Oh yes…
And moderation
in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
i was not politically aware enough at the time to really understand whether he was blowing smoke, saying something profound, or performing some typically American combination of the two, but the words stand very nicely by themselves.
“Moderation” on the left is what brought us to this precarious position in the first place.
Making believe that we are at a party somewhere at which everyone is supposed to make nice while outside killers and thieves steal our possessions and murder our neighbors.
In OUR NAME!!!
Sorry…this ain’t no party, diane101.
And trying to make believe that it IS a party is going to get us ALL killed.
Wake up.
AG
Arthur, I think you overestimate the importance of any blog, and especially this one, in the grand scheme of things and how it relates to the rest of the world.
For gosh sakes, how many people in the US or world read this site, read DK, or any blog for that matter, only a tiny, tiny percentage.
We are not the changers, we are the reflectors. If words written here or on any blog make any bit of difference in the larger US or World context, please show me. At best we can point out things others may read, sign petitions, take some action, but for the most part I think blogs are just a place to discuss issues and yes have a little fun too.
The party reference was used specifically to relate to the host, guest issue, and I think you know that.
We are just not all fighters in the sense you seem to want these blogs to be, the words of one person, or even many people are not changing anything in the grand scheme of things, so why can’t everyone just relax and let this be a place to discuss and reflect.
I continue to wonder why people who have views like you about blogs, do not start their own blogs where they can do as they please, and foot the bills and build the audience they wish to have.
Let me suggest Xanga, for free blog software that is a cut above eblogs, and has the opportunity for interaction..
I also wish to state here, in case anyone has thought this, I had nothing whatsoever to do with Parkers banning, sent no emails to anyone requesting such an action, never have ever suggested anyone to be banned from any site, nor have I ever suggested in any comment anyone should be banned. I personally apologized to Parker for over reacting, and I meant it and certainly would not want her banned over anything that went down with me.
I am a peacemaker not a banactivist.
Let me throw this out FWIW, why not call it a suspension, maybe have a 30 days suspension, or some such thing, and then give a second chance.
In bars they have the 86 rule, but usually allow the 86’d person to have another go at it, and then comes the dreaded, lifetime 86 for those who cannot conform to wishes of the host.
I do think Booman, needs to make a short, concise rule list, more than just ‘don’t be a prick’ and post it in a little box on the side panel. One persons Prick is another person’s Prince and that seems to be the problem.
Whew, now I gotta go to the cafe and take a break.
I am a peacemaker not a banactivist.
I like your style.
You write:
For gosh sakes, how many people in the US or world read this site, read DK, or any blog for that matter, only a tiny, tiny percentage.
And I do NOT think that I overestimate that importance..
In a shooting war, how many people actually hold the guns?
This is an INFO war, taking place at the very beginning of the Information Age. It can…and has to some degree already…stop a SHOOTING war, because the pen is mightier than the sword.
The keyboard is mightier than the automatic weapon.
We are at a tipping point in the history of mankind.
The right wing wants to tip backwards, into the exclusivity of influence and exoression controlled by the rich.
The left…literally millions of Tom Paines out here, pulling for a new democracy. A new FORM of democracy.
Infotocracy. (The word doesn’t scan well, but what the hell…)
The vast center…various degrees of neutral, as always.
Societies run on a vector system. All KINDS of forces pushing and pulling in all kinds of different ways. In four dimensions, including time. Left, right, up, down, back, forward (and let’s not forget good old stasis ) plus all possible permutations and combinations thereof.
And left blogworld has had this effect on BushCo.
It has literally ripped off the veil of secrecy that such autocratic systems need in order to do their work. Pushed over the rock so that all who care to see can witness the machinations of these lower animals.
Do you really think that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Delay and the rest of these parasites would be in the kind of trouble that they are in now if we hadn’t been there, crying “FIRE!!!” from the get-go?
I don’t.
Think about how long Vietnam ran, how many deaths on both sides it took before public opinion tipped against THAT imperialist adventure.
We have made things run 10 times faster.
And we are just getting started!!!
So no, I do not think that I overestimate our power.
Tom Paine World, if we do not allow ourselves to be co-opted.
Tom Paine World.
AG
P.S. Why do i not start my own blog?
Too busy. I’m a freelance musician.
Some days I have time, and I contribute whatever I can.
MANY days I do not.
Can’t run a blog that way.
Can’t hardly run a LIFE that way.
I think any changes made are not due to words written on blogs, but to action items taken, by petitions, or whatever, so in the sense that blogs drive that I would agree there is power.
But to assume that a comment/counter comment, a diary or a site, an individual writer or a blog owner has much more power than to inform and suggest action, I think is taking this over the top.
Yes we as individuals want change but we also have to live as well, we can’t be waging the war every minute, with everything we write or do.
There is much to be gained by gathering in a community and sharing whatever we wish, promoting thoughtful and personal discourse could improve not only a blog but the world as well.
Reaching out as one human to another, to people in other places and other cultures in other countries can benefit mankind just as much as fighting the bad guys. I choose the path of reaching out for the most part, there has to be the peacemaker’s or the warriors would fight forever.
Blogs are becoming powerful, they are virtual cites and the MSM and politicans are begining to read them. Political blogs the most powerful of all, we can’t be naive, money will become an issue as blogs grow. Power and money seem to always influence our views. That’s why I would rather we keep the issue in broad daylight. The questions should be: how can we keep the influence that is coming from destroying freespeech…tell me if I am wrong. This is more than a few people arguing.
Sorry. Basically repeated you up-thread. My take exactly.
Susan, thanks for continuing what I hope will be honest and respectful dialogue. I have been away for the past few days, but I’ve tried to go back and read through some of the threads that got heated.
My observations, for what they’re worth, are that the blogs are a mixture between political activism and community-building. In our case, the political activism is ofter borne out of a whole load of anger. Anger at the destruction of our country by the criminals in power, anger at war and needless killing, anger at torture, anger and frustration at seeing elected officials who are supposed to be on our side selling us out therefore causing us to be voiceless in our supposed democracy.
That anger can collide with the other side of our personalities–the nurturing side. That’s where the community building has come into play here at BMT. Many of us have gone out of our way to welcome new people and foster relationships.
I can totally see how cliques have formed here, I’m probably considered to be a member of one or three. What’s funny and ironic is that I don’t see that for myself. I love to engage across diaries and frontpage stories because there is a wealth of information to be found with each click (clique?) heh, sorry, can’t stop the snark.
Anywho, here’s my final point. Everyone has an opinion that is valued to me, even if it boils my blood. I understand that with respect to Parker, she has constantly allowed her passion and ahem..anger.. to consume her comments. Most of it gets directed at Kos, the DLC’ers, etc. but it flows towards a goal that I think we all share as progressives–equal rights for all under the law.
I hope she gets in contact with you and that discussion continues, I want to see her posting back here again; but I hope all of us will be more respectful about personal attacks. I have seen some ugly shit over the past few hours, and it breaks my heart, because I know it involves consuming anger that doesn’t reflect who the person is behind the screen.
I hope there will be olive branches in our future, I believe it’s possible.
(sorry for the diary-length comment, I needed to get it off my chest and this seemed like the best place without creating a new diary)
Peace to you all, we could use some more of it.
in this site.
in the liberal blogosphere.
I heard that!
It’s pretty simple. The atmosphere is quieter than it is on Big Orange. I still post — a lot — over on Daily Kos, but by the nature of that community, when they get their knickers in a twist, it’s a really big twist.
Over here there are still disagreements, but by and large people disagree without being disagreeable. So when we get into a kerfluffle, it’s magnified because the community here is so much smaller, and the arguments so much less frequent.
I’ve managed to miss the latest round of unpleasantness here. FSM willing, I’ll miss the others too. I really don’t want to get into infighting within the community. We have more important things to worry about, and when the miscreants are frog-marched out of the White House, maybe then we can get into it among ourselves.
Maybe.
I’ve often said that whatever ire towards Big Orange seemed rather minimal, and I have certainly thought, albeit perhaps rarely voiced the simple notion that continuing to make a big deal about something that is originally not a big deal will eventually be self-fulfilling. The community as it were gets shafted in the process.
[shruG]
Thank you Susan for this . I had no idea any of this happened until this morning. All the dustups this past week have all been luckily missed by me.
I know that I have gone over that fineline a couple of times here at the pond and boy have I ever deeply regretted it. I am one of those people that have a hard time not taking the bait. For my participation in those horrible arguements my deepest apologies to all that were offended or affected. I have been fortunate enough to have been able to bury thre hatchet with a couple of those people. For that I am very grateful.
This is a wonderful community and all any of us really want, imho is to be heard. Sometimes, unfortunately, we have to shout to be heard and that is not good. Manny hit it on the head for me. I can only speak for myself here but I know the deep despair I felt at losing the election to the Bush Cabal, then all the secrets and lies and manipulation over the past few years, a spineless party that is suppose to be our representatives makes me angry, frustrated and all out discouraged and sad. No wonder we blow up from time to time. It is my greatest hope that we can all find some common ground to work with so we can work together to kick these assholes out of the WH and congress. We have alot of hard work ahead of us but together I know in my heart we can do it. Allfor one and one for all.
much of the ire can be attributed to fear — the fear that dKos is increasingly being seen as The Voice of the liberal blogosphere, to the exclusion of the many diverse voices out there. With Markos completing his book and likely to be making the book tour scene, this is only going to increase: “BOOKplex welcomes Markos Moulitsas, founder of Daily Kos, the voice of Liberal America…”
How can we counter it? Not by railing against it — that just burns too much energy and raises a lot of negative vibes, both by the railers and those caught in the blast zone. Instead, we need to alert what little liberal media we have to stories of importance that are diaried here. I’ve been sending the occasional email to Keith Olbermann with links to diaries over here, and have considered adding some of the Air America hosts as well. It might especially be good to alert the “Majority Report” folks, since they have Markos on once a week, so they realize that dKos does not speak for the entire liberal community.
Many of us are older, with assorted health issues — I’d rather see us conserve our energy for the real battles ahead of us in 2006. Every time we burn energy by railing against each other, imagine Karl Rove chortling with glee…
Susan, this really isn’t that hard.
You’ve stated your position. Booman has stated it. Then you each have restated it. But you still seem confounded by the reaction.
So, perhaps what some folks are hearing and what you think you’re saying are two different things.
Fast forward in time
Now, this place used to be a wonderful place for discussion, simply because one could stick ones foot down ones throat one day, and apologize for it the next and move of in peace and friendship (SusanG’s remarks above are only the most recent, there have been many many others — alohaleezy and brinnaine, myself and rba, just to name a few).
It was cool we could be open and honest, and not have to over-censor ourselves — out of fear of being punished or lynched. It created an atmosphere where we could feel free to try out new political thoughts, explore them in a forgiving atmosphere, and learn.
We’ve never been given a real explanation for this recent rules change. The closest we’ve gotten is that it makes Boo feel uncomfortable to have folks be negative towards his friend, (the 2nd in command at a certain blog), or even toward that blog itself.
But the very request changes the dynamic of this place. And it concerns me that neither Susan nor Booman seem to get this implication. I get the sense that from their view, they are only making a very small request. They aren’t seeing it as actually redefining what this place is, and has been — not just to many of us, but to even the folks who are more than willing to accept (or even welcome) these new rules.
Nothing has been more divisive on this blog than these recent requests.
At least nothing I can recall. Name your criterion, and check out the evidence.
Yesterday’s frontpage diary really troubled me. We had some members actually forming up groups, ready to become the Booman Tribune version of the orange’s enforcer corp. We had members offering up suggestions of which members should be considered for banning first.
Wasn’t this pretty much how it went down at the place many of us came from?
This community is now being asked to accept the redefinition of rule #1 from “don’t be a prick to fellow members” to this new “don’t be a prick to anyone in the blogosphere”. I’m assuming its okay to slam Ann Coulter, so perhaps there is an implied “leftie” blogosphere. Tho I bet its okay to mock Ward Churchill, so its a bit vague on exactly which blogs in the blogosphere warrant special rights to be treated equally to actual participating members of this blog. Except the orange, of course. That’s been spelled out in bright letters.
Is Booman Tribune an actual blogging community, or is it a satellite of a larger organization? Are we going from start-up mode to bought-out mode — where instead of equals lead by a “first among equals” who looked out for us as a community, we’re now merely welcomed guests where we’re expected to defer to the host not just in common sense areas (don’t be a prick to your fellow member), but also “don’t do things which the owner doesn’t really like so much”?
So, the line has moved.
I figure most will accept it and fall into line. Its not much to ask, if it doesn’t require you to change your behavior. And if it only requires a little change, well, maybe its worth it to get along. And if it requires a bigger change, but you have so many friends here, well, being a Democrat teaches one to grin and bear it quite nicely.
And if some choose to walk right up to the edge of this vague line as their own Birmingham protest, so be it. And if others protest in stronger ways, that’s to be expected. Funny what people will do when conditions change from “doing what’s best for the community” to “sacrificing principles and beliefs to please another”.
Many of the protesters won’t last long. 2-3 weeks of frontpaged diaries says that someone is keeping notes on all this “dissension”, and taking it straight to the blog owner. Hopefully its as well documented and the evidence is as bulletproof as the evidence that will now be required of anyone who dares to speak ill of certain special-protected class blogs. But I doubt it, and thats a shame.
Because we haven’t been given a chance to see the evidence of the ‘wrongdoing’ going on around here. Nor have we as a community been given the opportunity to weigh in, and perhaps even come to the same conclusion ourselves.
Instead we are told “I’m the site owner” or “I’m speaking for the site owner”, and “this is how things are going to be”.
In the past, its been obvious that the actions of the blog owner have been taken with the best intentions for the community at heart.
This time, it just seems this is more of a personal call.
His blog, his rules. That certainly works.
And that’s how a certain other blog went downhill. One topic of discussion was disliked by the owner. And he made it known. And that in effect gave permission to the blog members to play vigilante, ‘enforcing the will of the blog owner’ or whatnot. And soon those that displeased the blog owner were forced out.
And then it happened to another topic, another group. Then when some wouldn’t be driven off, they were banned.
Is that the road all blogs are destined to take?
Is this the time that this blog starts down that path?
I expect a few reaction saying I’m worrying too much, or this will be different, or otherwise disparaging this line of thought. Thats fine. That’s what they said over there, too — in the beginning.
I wish you both (Boo and Susan) would reconsider this course of action. Do what’s right for this community.
Maybe its a decision that this is a community worth keeping whole, even if that puts some occasional strain on some personal friendships.
Or if what’s right for this community is a change in how things have operated until October, please come right out and spell it out for us, including the reason why the change is necessary and good for this community.
Either outcome is better for the community than the current state of things.
Democracy is fine out there in the real world–everybody should vote and the people should have their say–but in the blogosphere, the sites are run by a small clique.
Do I describe the situation incorrectly? When’s the last time anybody except the site owner and site management were consulted on anything?
Why can’t we have democracy, or at least group decision-making, in the liberal blogosphere? A nice start might be to form a committee that decides if somebody should be banned. One person I’d put on that committee would be–prepare yourself for a shock!–Ductape Fatwa. Another person would be Recordkeeper. Another person would be MilitaryTracy.
What do all of these people have in common? They have an open mind. They wouldn’t arbitrarily ban anybody, nor give them a time out, but I can envision them voting to temporarily or permanently ban somebody for bad behaviour IF they thought the evidence warranted it.
If we had such a committee to consider initial bannings, or to hear appeals of bannings, then I might very well begin to believe that BooTrib is truly a “community”. Until then, it’s not, and we shouldn’t label it so.
The price for participation might be greater financial support, of course. We cannot expect Booman or SusanHu to subsidise us, as neither is independently wealthy. As for me, I’d be more than willing to lend considerable financial aid–no strings attached!–to a site that at least practised some form of “glasnost”.
I expect a few reaction saying I’m worrying too much, or this will be different, or otherwise disparaging this line of thought.
Not from me. I started feeling uneasy when catnip left.
Over “creative differences”. Hm.
Ya right, Yaright.
GREAT take on what is going down here.
I saw it happen there, and now I am seeing it here.
Only I think Booman is smarter than that.
Jonathan Winters closing line to a sketch about an old tribal medicine man and his acolyte who gets fatally bitten by a poisonous snake while learning a certain ceremony.
“We learn by doing.”
Let us pray.
Let us LEARN.
And let us stay on the front of the wave.
That is always where the REAL action happens.
AG
Is this the time that this blog starts down that path?
I’m afraid it is.
This is an extraordinary, insightful summation of what is happening and how we got to this point.
I’m wearing my underwear on the outside so they can check if it’s clean. I don’t know what more I’m expected to do, really.
I’ve guest hosted a pretty large blog and had to deal with some similar issues. The fact is, though the best blogs are a community of sorts, there is still a host. And it is up to the host to determine what the rules of participation are.
My feeling was, when I was a guest host, some people came into my house, disrespected me, called me names and didn’t obey my very reasonable house rules – which were pretty much “don’t be a prick.”
In other words, if the host says, “Hey, cut that out. I’ve asked you not to do that. You’re still doing that. Hey, you’re disrespecting me. And as much as I like having y’all over here, I’m paying the rent and this is still my fucking house!“
Booman and Susan have asked, nicely and respectfully, that we try and maintain a certain civil tone here. That we don’t lash out, we don’t engage in personal attacks and name-calling. Maybe sometimes that line is a little gray. But my feeling is, if the site owner warns somebody – once. Twice. Hey, you’re crossing the line – and that person chooses to continue to disrespect the host –
Well, that’s the time for the guest to go find another party.
If Booman and SusanHu paid for the operation of this blog entirely out of their own pockets, and provided all of the content, then that would be try.
However, to say “this is Booman’s blog and his alone” denigrates the financial support and writing contributions of everyone else.
Do we not support this site by clicking on the blogads? By direct financial contribution? By purchasing items from the store?
Do we not provide free content for this site by writing our diaries and comments?
I keep hearing two refrains: “This is a community” and “This is Booman’s private party, if you don’t like it, leave.”
Well, which is it? It can’t be both.
My view: Booman provides a forum for our views. We, in turn, provide financial support for the site and free content that draws in readers.
I’ve withheld a greater amount of financial support because in order to support this site the way I have the ACLU or the Sierra Club or other organisations to which I lend considerable aid, I would require some voice in the decisions of the organisation.
I am a VOTING member of the Sierra Club, for example.
But, once again–democracy is fine “out there” in the real world (and we complain that Bush has subverted democracy in America)…but democracy here? Even a bit of it? Hell, no.
I don’t give a flying fuck in a rolling donut about Daily Kos. I am sick to death of its defenders, and I’m equally nauseated by its attackers. It is about the most boring fucking subject imaginable. I am tired of Kos’ little adhoc enforcers coming over here and whinging about inappropriate diaries and inappropriate comments, and I’m tired of the irrational, rabid attacks on anything vaguely Orange-colored.
It’s really, truly tedious.
“I don’t give a flying fuck in a rolling donut…” Damn, that’s funny!
:<)
Alright, so I was trying to go for a bit of OT levity. FWIW, I think the banning is a bit over the top, but I pretty much agree with Lisa–we are too concerned with the other site from both angles. I know how I came here but it’s not why I stay here. Ideas are shared; intelligent discourse; the best in snark … I LOVE that!
Let’s not give that, or any other place, more attention than it’s due–and that’s advice for all.
Alrighty then. I’m going over to Wilfred’s Syriana diary.
(Can you be a diary flack if it’s not your diary?)
Smooches.
I’d say I got that expression from my midwestern relatives, only they were more inclined to say “It beats a poke in the eye with a sharp stick.”
The banning was an over-reaction. My opinion. Nothing you can do to change that. Deal with it. Big Orange: irrelevant. Again, my opinion. Again, nothing you can do to change that. Again, deal with it.
While all that was going on, here are a few recent diaries that you might have missed.
Cindy Sheehan at Uconn
Ramsey Clark Interview
CARTOON: Big Talkers on Campus
Gallup: Most Americans Favor Feingold/Murtha on Iraq!
Republicans Use Mind Control – Literally.
They’re worth visiting, commenting on, recommending, and so on. Or flog the same horse til it liquefies.
Thank you, THANK you, THANK YOU!
I’d give you 20 4’s if I could.
An interesting concept.
I’m oblivious to the controversies that are swirling here, having all my intellectual time sucked up by bending, cutting and gluing things that are more properly manipulated by communist slaves.
But I have some experience with “free speechers” in 3-dimensional as well as digital communities, and I must say, they do seem to love the forums where speech is the dominant activity. So far I’ve never found a free speech extremist in a machine shop or pumping bilges on a leaky sailing vessel in the black of night out of sight of land. Hurtling metal and bubbling icy water do have their way of bringing perspective to the mouth.
I also find extreme free speech rare in any culture old enough to have collided with the boundaries of its frontiers well before the present.
Maybe people are free speech extremists because, like anyone with any thin edge of advantage above the median, they prefer a world run organized around their fortunate talent.
I’ve never heard of a traditional culture that supports ‘extreme free speech.’ Help me out here anthropolists. What I do know from hard personal experience cross-checking every last detail of what I’ve been taught, is that in science, technology, the arts, labor and business, speech is a type of power. And like all powers, millennia of experience in the 3-D world shows around the globe that it is historically checked and balanced in a myriad of ways.
Although conservatives appeared on earth barely 6,000 years ago, the more complex liberals evolved over 5 or 6 million years, and in communities of rarely more than a few dozen. We seem to do well in communities of that size, be they physical or digital. When we get a few orders of magnitude larger, “logic” and “common sense” as we’ve evolved them breaks down, and sooner or later we are compelled to create “artificial” rules and systems to hold everything together.
Susan and Boo, fact is, we’re ugly sacks of mostly water, and beyond that, we’re very particular types of sacks. So don’t feel bad that you may find it necessary to do things that feel artificial or arbitrary to keep a thousand or ten thousand people together in a community when they’re built to live among barely dozens.
We’re all living in a sci-fi futuristic world here. You do the best you can, and the majority and best of us will figure it out. If someone’s badly disruptive, deal with them, then go outside and look at some clouds or babies or variable declarations or whatever excites you, and carry on.
Carry on. Love is coming to us all.
I don’t have time to write or participate much in these community blogs, but I do read a fair bit and have been following many of these controversies here and elsewhere.. and this:
“2) that it’s not okay to accuse other bloggers of being in cahoots to make a lot of money”
really bothers me. It reminds of Dubya saying: “How dare you question what’s in my heart!” Didn’t like it then, don’t like it now – not here, not from Armando and Kos, not anywhere.
Yes, it’s uncomfortable when people question motives, but to disallow any discussion of motive or transparency or access is moving in the wrong direction. And then to ban people for it? Wow. Just wow.
My take is that it is completely okay to question the structure of a site, who is funding it, etc. if you are doing so with more than just a gut feeling and not being a jerk about how you are asking the questions.
I have questioned Kos’ relationship with NDN and TimeWarner (specifically about the pie ad/ war)… but I don’t resort to name calling about it, I don’t automatically assume I have all the answers and I try to do so somewhat respectfully to both dkos and the site I am posting on.
I can understand how when a site is small having a peaceful, homogeneous atmosphere is really important. But BooTrib is much bigger now and it has communities within communities. We have loyal dems and adamant independents. If one of us gets our feelings hurt, we all have our like-minded friends who can comfort us. What we need to do is to not see disagreements as personal attacks and to not turn disagreements into personal attacks.
I come from a family of arguers; we like it; we thrive on it. We are sometimes bitches and pricks but here’s our rule about arguing: if you start arguing the person instead of the point, it’s time to shut up. If you can’t shut up, leave the room.
I’ve made this point elsewhere but I’ll repeat it here. We’ve been experiencing storm here at BooTrib and this worries some people but it doesn’t worry me. Storms have their own beauty, power, and purpose. Storms accomplish some very good things underneath all that turmoil — they knock down trees which opens up areas to light, they enrich dry soil, they cause fires that allow seeds to open and grow. If BooTrib want to grow and thrive, it needs storms. People like Parker is a walking storms and I believe we need them.
What Spiderleaf and AndiF said.
The last time I went to, er, that other place, a friend of mine had inadvertantly put up a diary on a topic that had already been diaried. She was absolutely pilloried, in a nasty, attacking, personal way. There was little attempt to educate her about what she did that “violated community standards” – it seemed like it was just an excuse to shred somebody.
To me, this is a way clearer violation of “community” than respectfully asking someone to refrain from personal attacks.
Well, I’m sad to see that Parker really was banned. Mind you, I disapprove of bannings anyway, unless they are for actual trolls, so I wouldn’t approve regardless. I’m even more sad that it came about due to her opinions on kos and company.
Maybe I didn’t interact with her enough (I just found out she was a ‘her’ yesterday), but while I didn’t always agree with her, like many others I appreciated her passion and singular ability to cut thru all the spin and BS and get to the core of a matter. In fact, because of that ability, I’ve had the experience of realizing that I was falling for spin in certain instances and needed to look at things from a different perspective (related to congress and legislation about women, not blogs). So now, even if I don’t agree with her, I try and listen carefully and look again to see what it is I’ve missed :). I hope things work out and that her voice is once again heard here. Galiel’s too, for that matter.
On the other issue of kos, anti-kos, my kos, your kos, everyone’s a kos-kos… ahem… I mean on the issue of people speaking against kos and armando and whoever else over there… while I understand the reasoning behind it (sort of), I think it’s an extremely unproductive and damaging thing to put on the front page and to always highlight… it never fails to infuriate some, offend others, and get people into their corners. The “if it’s a diary calling out a particular person, if you post it here, also post it there” thing is something that’s simple and easy to see the value of (except for those who can’t cross post ;). But all this… nah.
And I’m just not sure why it’s needed… and I’m pretty sure it also won’t work. Oh, it might for a short time… until the next flock of startled, angry, purged people come flying over to immediately write diaries about “And you know what? They did THIS!”
I think that’s mostly a function of being a familiar looking place, with many familiar looking names of people who will understand and sympathize.
But as we found out with the pie people, the community (and yes, I believe there is one) is pretty good at being self correcting. People were allowed their room to vent for a bit, and then they looked at everything else going on… the welcoming the committees and the excellent diaries and whatever else… and moved in to establish their place here (or went elsewhere, some of them) and to concentrate on building up their work here or the community or whatever. And all the “OH MY GOD! those people!” stuff died down and people moved on.
That’s happened pretty much every time, when it’s something that’s done through the community members. When it’s some sort of edict from The Top, then it becomes a huge issue and even more resentment is built up and people go on long rants on pet issues regarding blogs and communities, and others feel a whiff of oppression and supression of speech (some more than a whiff), and the vast majority have no clue what is going on because few ever noticed whatever tiny bit of ‘i hate kos and armando’ was going on for whatever brief time… but it’s still unsettling.
Anyway, I don’t know where I’m going with this… I need more coffee.
Best to stop typing now ;).
Just briefly, my own thoughts:
I think Scribe’s post “On Community Conflicts” is a wonderful post. What she describes is peer-to-peer management — something that the web is supposed to cultivate. This site is best described as an authoritarian management that emulates peer-to-peer most of the time.
Part of the problem, I think, is a limitation of the software. Scoop as configured here does not allow for much peer review beyond all this mojo silliness — which has become more of a stroking mechanism than any sort of group moderation tool. I don’t know what else is available out there, other modules, what not. Kuro5hin seems to have more tools, but they’re hardly a model of community, either.
I agree with shadowthief that, bottom line, you can’t have both a private site where the big boss decides and a democratic community site. Diane101 is more optimistic, but I think the inherent conflict between these two models is just too much to overcome in a site that deals with so much politics.
Not to “bash” Daily Kos, but look at the atmosphere there. There’s definitely a chill in the air. Say the wrong thing and you get bashed pretty thoroughly. Persist in expressing unapproved opinions and you can expect to be thrashed, perhaps banned — plus a few self-appointed goons will follow you to other sites to continue the beating. It’s not terribly common, but it’s vivid enough to stick in people’s minds. That is mob rule, with the tacit support of the big boss.
There’s less of that here. That’s a reflect on the people here. But now we’re confronting that question — is this a community or is this a private website? What seems to be the clear message from management is that this is a private site, just like Daily Kos is a private site. And when push comes to shove, that precludes any real sense of a true community.
Look at the Augusta, the private golf club infamous for its discriminatory policies. Even that organization, private though it may be, is run by a board. They have rules, policies. I would guess that their legal structure reflects their own little community of sorts. There are dos and don’ts, but presumably they are laid down in rules, decided upon according to procedures, rather than willy nilly by one fat old white man smoking a cigar next to the fireplace.
Look at a Town Hall meeting — a real one, not a fake, staged Bush emulation. In a real Town Hall meeting, imagine a citizen booted out for stating an unpopular political view. Imagine a citizen harrassed, beaten and lynched for saying unpopular things. It’s happened historically, I’m sure, but in a democratic society, citizens have rights and the rules are laid down, enforced and judged collectively.
When I look at blogs, though, I see places that are more like bars — places where people hang out, but always with the sign over the door, “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.” Bars have regulars, stars, clowns, bartenders and bouncers. And if the owner doesn’t like the way you look, out you go.
If you really stretch the definition of community, in some sense you could call a crowd in a bar a community. But it’s hardly the democratic community to which we aspire in real life.
As a “bar owner,” I don’t have a problem with this. This is a free country, too, and people can gather in whatever tavern they want. And tavern owners can set the rules as they see fit. I’ve noticed that the guests at the smaller bars tend to do a lot more pub crawling than the folks that go to the bigger establishments, like BMT or DK. The bigger places seem more insular. (I see a lot more traffic from a mention on a small site than I have from FP mentions on these big Scoop sites.)
But that’s just the way it is. Our “fault” is in expecting these private bars to be town halls. They aren’t. And unless they’re set up and structured to incorporate community decision making and community enforcement of community-defined rules, at best they can emulate a democratic community.
But every time the “firm hand” comes in and bounces a patron, that reminds everybody that this is not a community, and it’s not rules you don’t want to cross, it’s certain people who you don’t want to cross. And that’s a huge difference.
I lament Parker’s banning. To my eye, she’s been a strong, often rambunctious presence on the various large Scoop sites. But I’ve seen her get a lot worse than she gives. To me, banning her seems like a personal judgment and not a result of a rules transgression — especially since the rules seem to be ever changing.
And I suppose the reaction here is colored to some extent by the simultaneous, but afaik unrelated, banning picnic on DK.
Speaking for myself, as someone who is not a professional blogger but has a real life and real career requiring attention so I can eat and have a roof over my head, I already feel like I spend way too much time on political blogging for my own creature comfort level. I should be working more. But I can’t help it — how can I just drop my interest in politics when politics will never drop its interest in me? But with all this angsty drama inspired by what I consider overreactions and intolerance in what I had erroneously considered community sites, I wasted too much time on the politics of the sites talking about politics — and that’s just ridiculous.
So while I may try to pop in now and then, I will in the future endeavor to remember that this is a private bar and that opinions like mine are not all that welcome here. That message was made loud and clear on that other site by the enforcement squad.
Yet I have some affection for many people here, so this isn’t a GBCB comment, just a “I got some other things to attend to” wave.
I was going to be brief. Alas….
Be seeing you.
But every time the “firm hand” comes in and bounces a patron, that reminds everybody that this is not a community, and it’s not rules you don’t want to cross, it’s certain people who you don’t want to cross. And that’s a huge difference.
Is exactly right.
Damn, you’re good.
That’s what this is–a town hall meeting.
And those of us who don’t like the rules of the meeting are being asked to leave.
Very un-democratic…with a small “d”…don’t you think?
I wish I had written the analysis above. It’s the best one so far on this diary.
Which rules are you offended by
I’m unhappy with people being banned without clear standards for banning, without due process for banning, and without a right of appeal to a jury of one’s peers.
I am NOT commenting on the particulars of Parker’s case, nor saying that no one should be ever be banned from here. I’m questioning the procedures for doing so, and the rules upon which such exclusions are based.
when he gets back up and running that will clarify that. He is good at conducting such business.
I have a somewhat limited knowledge of all thats gone here at Booman due to the fact that I (like most of us I think) have to work occasionally and seem to miss a lot. But from my experience, I would take exception to the sweeping generalizations about a “firm hand” at the top. Others seem to imply that Boo and Susan do this kind of thing with no communication. This has not been my experience. Seems to me that they usually talk about what they can in an open forum and get lots of input from others. I know that at times, there has been content that someone has requested remain private (ie the Catnip situation) and they have honored that.
I don’t know what has gone on with Parker and so can’t comment on that. I do know that it seemed like she was posting on a previous thread after it had been declared by other posters that she had been banned (maybe my mistake, but for what its worth). I just wanted to say that over the last year I have developed some trust in Boo and Susan to air questions publicly when they can. Since there is so much that we don’t know – thats where I’ll leave it for now and not jump to conclusions.
My point is not whether this is a benevolent dictatorship or not, or whether the rulers are just or not. I’m just saying that everything happening here is just and right as long as we acknowledge that this is not a community but a private establishment. We are not members so much as patrons. And they reserve the right to refuse service to anyone.
–As I reserve the same rights on MediaGirl.
There’s nothing to stop BooMan from restructuring the decision making into something more democratic, so that a real community spirit can flourish. But I can tell you, that’s a helluva lot of work, and not just for BooMan and “staff” (for lack of a better word), but for all those who would volunteer to participate in that. Just forming a government can be a lot of work, even without the Bush Administration pulling the strings.
On MLW, Paul Rosenthal (?) proposed the new establishment of such a democratically governed site, and was categorically lambasted and I believe ended up deleting his own diary there.
But it would be an interesting project. I don’t know if Scoop’s feature set is up to it. CivicSpace might be, but damn that would be a lot of work just to set up the software, too.
Anyway, democracy is what we hope for, but with blogs we’re dealing with private enterprises, and we should remember that, is what I’m saying.
The “firm hand” is in reference to remarks made in a previous conflagration involving appropriate behavior and criticism of certain parties. If it doesn’t resonate with you, I think that’s why.
thanks for your insight, mediagirl. as usual you’re spot on.
i wonder though, when you say this:
So while I may try to pop in now and then, I will in the future endeavor to remember that this is a private bar and that opinions like mine are not all that welcome here.
how many other bootribbers here see, as i clearly do, some of the excellent content of this site beginning to leak away?
half the women in this thread finds fault with parker and are glad she is gone. but hasn’t it occured to you naysayers how brilliant many of her diaries were?
how thought provoking?
with parker gone, and now mediagirl bowing out it seems, this site feels much less interesting…
It’s a big pond and I think it is quite ridiculous to not post something because some members might not want to hear it… while some members do… seems quite self-defeating to me actually.
So, if Media Girl decides not to post, that is her choice although I will miss her diaries.
how would her not posting at booman be self-defeating? i can easily see how it would be a site-loss to an extent, with a diaryist of mediagirls quality. she’s read all over, linked to by all other top women bloggers, she’s been linked to from the daou report, her posts are syndicated at feminist blogs and shes a news feed source for google news in regards to feminism. for someone of her caliber to stop posting at booman, well all i can assume is you really aren’t aware of how highly she is regarded in feminist circles.
Because she would be assuming that not everyone wants to read her work, or her ideas and that we all march in lock step over here… self-defeating might not be the best phrase for it, but it was all I had at the time. Perhaps a self-fulfilling prophecy about the site… if people stop posting because not everyone agrees with them then we lose valuable voices.
I really couldn’t care less how valuable her voice is in feminist circles. I’m a feminist myself but that doesn’t mean I go out searching for her voice in particular. I happen to like big community sites where I can get all my info at once and see disparate points of view. And if she’s gone from here, then others will step into the void… that’s the thing about BooTrib, we have TONS of feminists posting here, although not all of them focus on feminist issues solely.
I just think it’s ridiculous to stop posting and march off in a huff because not everyone agrees with everything you say all the time.
I really couldn’t care less how valuable her voice is in feminist circles. I’m a feminist myself but that doesn’t mean I go out searching for her voice in particular.
In the case of Media Girl I most certainly do. I’ve learned a great deal from reading her crystal clear and honest analysis. She’s an exceptionally bright woman and I’ve found her participation most helpful in both clarifying issues and in observing the way she interacts with others. She’s quite remarkable and of all the posters on lefty blogs my current pick for the person with the most leadership potential.
I just think it’s ridiculous to stop posting and march off in a huff because not everyone agrees with everything you say all the time.
I believe this is most unfair. I see no evidence of the sort of silly behavior you describe above in MG’s post.
we clearly disagree about how easily media girl can be replaced by any one of the “tons of feminists” at boo trib. to me, it’s not that easy to just replace one voice with another. and mediagirl, in particular, is quite unique.
but i suppose the difference between our viewpoints comes down to a disagreement about the relationship between writers and their audiences. some write for the glory of being read. the thrill of being at the center of the audience’s attention. in that case, its the audience that does a service to the writer by reading, and the audience can easily convey that benefit on any other writer it chooses. and if that’s your perspective, a writer who choses not to publish in a particular blog would be self defeating, losing audience and all.
but some women write not to garner the biggest possible audience, but in order to simply speak their truth. and writers who do that well, who are insightful and articulate, who are good at uncovering a truth that might not otherwise be seen, cannot be easily replaced by the next random “feminist” to step up to the plate. good writers are providing a service to the audience (not the other way around). they enlighten, they uncover, they move people. it seems to me in the long run its those writers who audiences pursue. if your community doesn’t nurture them, well its a lesser community. TONS minus two, is still less. and in the end sheer numbers alone mean very little, IMHO.
and that’s why I want her to keep posting and not self-censor here. Because she needs to be heard… widely, everywhere. And I don’t want her to take a break just because some people disagree with her message here… if that is even the case… so, like Ductape said below, post more, not less.
I remember when the California Angels front office folks believed that they could simply replace Nolan Ryan after their successful 1979 season with a couple 7-game winning pitchers. Their front office indeed tested out that idea. 1980 wasn’t a successful season for them. Ryan was indeed irreplaceable.
Sorry, if I came across as harsh, I do appreciate her voice and her stance on the issues and I’m glad she is out there in the blogosphere, I’m just getting sick and tired of how we keep fracturing ourselves off because some people who post on a big site don’t agree with everything other people have to say.
Her voice is welcome here, I don’t see anyone saying it wasn’t. And as for Parker, yes, I have respect for her posts on women’s issues, and zero respect for how she conducts herself in regards to dkos or mydd. I can have both points of view on an issue or a person… life is complex and we won’t always agree, but to self-censor when no one is censoring you is icky and wrong imo.
but to self-censor when no one is censoring you is icky and wrong imo.
Deciding to no longer put much energy into a blog isn’t necessarily self censorship.
true, but if you have something to say about an issue… say it and let us figure out if we agree or not… just because some people don’t want to hear it doesn’t mean others don’t and I’d rather hear more from people who have something to say than less… but that’s just me… I’d post more if people were trying to stifle the issues I cared passionately about.
My reduced participation, should it come to that (and I’m still trying to find the right balance of time usage in my day), would be because of official intolerance to certain kinds of expression with regards to progressive politics — such as not being able to say a critical thing about another site or a particular poster. Rules are one thing — necessary, even — but having to tip-toe around topics so as not to attract the attention of the axe is another.
While I don’t feel I deserve anything like the praise Colleen and dblhelix give me (though I do truly appreciate being appreciated), I’m not one to back down from debate, as long as it’s honestly offered. But it’s a long time since I’ve outgrown my daddy’s belt, and I prefer to discuss politics on the basis of egality, not authority.
I hope that clarifies.
I misspoke — it was Bayprairie who was overpraising. (Now please cease and desist, or I may be tempted to start believing it … if only for a few moments over a glass of wine.)
While I don’t feel I deserve anything like the praise Colleen and dblhelix give me
Oh, but you really do. I cannot say how many times I’ve read a comment or a diary and have been disturbed by some unexpressed point or flaw in reasoning only to find you there not only fleshing my half formed thought but adding to and expanding my vaguely formed ideas. I’ll admit that a big part of the reason I read blogs is for intellectual stimulation and, at least from my perspective, you seriously rock, MG.
You’re one of the more insightful and intelligent people I’ve ever met and a constant delight.
OK, I’ll stop now….
of course you deserve every word.
When you feel as you do right now, post more, not less.
And no one here has overpraised you, so cease these baseless accusations.
You’re very wise tonight.
I agree with Ductape… post more, not less now and let us peeps on the other side of the screen figure out who to listen to.
And I don’t think it’s a rule about not saying anything about a different blog, it’s arguing the issues vs. getting personal… but that’s just my take on it.
Parker was banned for breaking the rules. She never was very good at obeying the ‘don’t be a prick’ rule, but she always chilled out when reminded. But her attacks on Chris Bowers, Markos, Armando, and Jerome Armstrong earned her (first) a request that she provide evidence (I then followed up on my own with Chris, Armando, the Democracy Alliance and other bloggers). Parker never produced any evidence and I satisfied myself that her charges were 100% inaccurate, groundless, and amounted to nothing more than slander.
I told her this and she continued to post them. I asked for personal attacks to be cross-posted or not made. She was banned from MyDD and Daily Kos, so she could not cross-post. She continued to make the same charges anyway.
I finally asked the whole community to stop with the personal attacks. They didn’t stop. Susan made an appeal for them to stop and Parker launched another round of groundless attacks.
I have to draw the line. People have made Parker’s case a metaphor for something larger. It’s not. It’s about accusing Chris Bowers of having no personal integrity, or Markos of making a secret deal to attract and dispense advertising, of the NDN of throwing around money with strings attached, of Armando of having a financial interest that doesn’t even exist.
Like it or not, I am friends of these people. I don’t censor criticism of them, but I also cannot provide a forum for people to slander them. I asked nicely and repeatedly. My wishes were just ignored. That is the extent of the story.
that’s a load, and you know it.
I suggest you back that up. Or are we to expect another dose of sophistry?
Pray tell, elighten us as … innuendo is NOT my cup of tea.
Parker asked legitimate questions that should be asked in a public forum. You can’t have it both ways: private when you want to control the “conversation”, public when you want to drive traffic.
She was banned b/c she asked inconvenient questions.
If and when she wishes, I’ll post her rebuttal. I’ll let y’all know as soon as I can.
…as is your right … as I have said many times. I appreciate your enlightening me with a response.
The people of Booshire, a small hamlet on the edge of Sherwood Forrest known for its love of football, home to many a talented kicker, foregather around the community well in the center of their colorful, if somewhat untidy village. They are a somber lot today; there will be no turning back once they do what they’ve come to do.
One of their community has committed a grave Offense, insulting the Lord of Orange, a much larger and more powerful fiefdom, and a formidable football foe, that lies close enough to them to be dangerous. Things being what they are in gentle rural villages during these times when slathering beasts, gargantuan ogres, and woeful knights errant tromp all over the land, the desire to cast out carbunculous citizens — even the ones they enjoyed practicing their kicking skills against — from their midst comes easily to the breasts of Booshire’s own.
Today the decision is to excise a frequently foot-targeted carbuncle from their midst. This citizen has always been known for possessing a particular skill at returning kicks as good as got, whether in rough and tumble practice sessions on the playing fields of Booshire, or the far more serious and much bloodier competition grounds Out There.
The condemned is pushed forward to the combined sounds of hissing, the humidity of an occasional lunger, and the rough scraping of more than a few pairs of uncomfortable feet. No one dares look his neighbor in the eye for fear that he or she will find accusation there. Or even enmity.
Arrived at the edge of Sherwood Forrest, they strip away all the condemned’s possesession and thrust That Person out of Booshire into the deep dark woods with the admonishment never to return. One can barely imagine what fate has in store for the Banished One.
For a while the good people of Booshire are stunned and silent. They feel confused. They wonder at what they have done. They worry about their own futures. They turn away from one another, no longer willing to show the souls of themselves to their neighbors. They become more careful, more circumspect, more deferential. More cowed.
Suddenly, the small high voice of a child pipes up from somewhere in the gathering. “Who will we kick around now?”
And among a few, the question provokes a realization. Without a few good kicker-backers, their football team would lose a vital teammate — possibly the most important person on whom they honed their own kicking skills; the one who was often counted on to score the winning kick against their arch-rivals in football; the one who could always be counted on to score against their real enemies Out There. Without the Banished One, many felt, they might be doomed to lose the Big Game.
Whazzzup everybody? Even the smallest comments seem to be taken very personally, has the fact that we have had us a brawl on Booman gotten us all feeling defensive? Brawls are few on here granted but we are bound to have a few. Let it go friends. Alito is about to hit the SCOTUS. Tampopo and Manny and Joe need you………I need you and Damnit Janet who has an autistic son needs you. Spats may come and spats may go but we are all friends here……and Alito could stay forever. When he gets really sick they could Kryo freeze him and only thaw him out to make Nazi rulings…….this is serious people! The Alito Pop! Holy Fuck! Run for the hills!
Tracy my friend, I would appreciate it if you could find some wisdom for the new clique I am forming since you have such a way of cutting to the chase. 🙂
in Operation Yellow Feather! We are leaders here so let’s get back to leading the way! The twelve days of Justice are coming. I know that there are other people and places out there and I know that they aren’t the people who hang out here and the people who hang out here have a tendency to be grassroots shakers. Let us go do what we do best and start shaking em up! You guys are all lousy brawlers against each other anyhow, you are pathetic at spilling blood and that’s what I have always loved about all of you the most because believe me there is more than enough blood spilled in Iraq.
Love You All
OK.
I’ve got a complaint, and here it is.
“Don’t Be a Prick” is sexist.
I am serious here.
Now of course we all know what it means…to some degree.
But what if Booman had instead written “”Don’t Be a Cunt.”
UH OH!!!
We all know what THAT means, too.
But women would have been incensed.
And they would have been correct to be incensed.
However… “Don’t Be a Prick?”
Yawn.
It’s a new day.
Why not act like it?
AG
It says, “Don’t BE a prick”, not “Don’t HAVE a prick”.
I prefer the word “asshole” or “jerk” myself, but I wasn’t consulted on the wording of the rule.
Yeah…i was thinking about asshole as a good substitute.
After all…we all have one.
Those of us who are NOT one in toto excepted, of course.
AG
Don’t be a cunt.
See?
It’s different.
Why?
Sexism.
AG
*Don’t be a prick rule”. I only have a vagina so you know what that means…….I have penis envy sigh. At Booman Tribune though I could be a prick and everybody would say, “Hey, you’re being a prick.” and I would say “Yeah, okay, you noticed and now I’m going to put my prick away.” It keeps my penis envy at bay!
Tracy, that was great, I am so glad you are keeping your penis envy at bay.
On Arthurs comment tho, I tend to agree and have so stated more than once on this site, I think it should be changed, and if I were a man I would be offended just as I would if it were a perjorative for a female organ used. Of course in my perfect world there would be no profanity or pejorative used at all and I would occasionally have to be kicked out of my own perfect world.
I confess that I have said in the past to a man named Richard, “You really are a dick, you know.” I send my apologies out through the ethernet, to Richard, wherever you are.
…and now I’m going to put my prick away. …
Hay, is that some kind of a swipe at those of us who have trouble keeping it in our pants? 😉
Late to the “party”. Group hug, and let’s all take a moment for a time out to read my latest diary here:
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2005/12/5/10556/6757
There, isn’t that better now?
diary-flogging prick (isn’t that wonderfully appropriate) and don’t we love you for it.
Hay, who are you calling shameless?
errata: you are a shameful diary-flogging prick.
.
I stopped by to see where many community members had gone.
There are some 220 comments to Susan’s diary, which makes me envious for perhaps 10% of that number to any of my own writings. Perhaps it’s not content but topic and emotions that attract members to contribute. There should be a time and place where people can vent emotions, anger, joy and sorrow.
I do believe it is important for BooMan’s Place to get through adolescence by lots of communicating, not only with young persons, but also to make use of guidance from wise and trusted community members.
Sorry for not able to contribute much more than this comment, I missed most of the related diaries I guess. Is it time yet for cheesecake, or will most of the pie end up against the wall?
«« click on cheesecake to find summary of this diary »»
I have been busy though.
“Treason doth never prosper: what’s the reason?
For if it prosper, none dare call it treason.”
▼ ▼ ▼ MY DIARY
Oooh, can I have a slice of that? Breakfast of champions, you know…