I am making this a diary because anyone who did not see Mr. Clark today should have the opportunity to read his remarks.
There is a lot of talk among Americans about patriotism, and values, but few good examples of either.
Americans should be very proud of Mr. Clark. As I said in a comment earlier today, he loves your country very much. Here is the transcript:
Meanwhile, of his many attorneys, advisers, and advocates, Saddam Hussein has only one who also happens to be for two years back in the ’60s attorney general of the United States. Ramsey Clark now joining me live from Baghdad.
Mr. Clark, we appreciate your time.
RAMSEY CLARK, FMR. U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: Well, nice to talk to you.
PHILLIPS: Well, as you can imagine, we’ve been following everything that you’ve had to say in that courtroom in Baghdad. We’ve also been talking to a number of your former colleagues about your participation in the Saddam Hussein trail. I guess, first of all, I want to ask you, why are you doing this?
CLARK: Well, I think the trial is of historic importance, and a fair trial is absolutely essential to truth and historic truth because we’re talking about history. It’s public justice. We’re talking about a former head of government. And to me, most important of all, peace.
The desperate need in Iraq is reconciliation. And if this trial isn’t seen as fair, it isn’t fair, in fact, it will irreconcilably divide the country. It’s bad enough now. But if it’s unfair, it is going to create greater anger and greater violence. And the Iraqis have had too much of that.
PHILLIPS: Well, sir, as you can imagine, there are a number of people coming forward saying, look, this is typical Ramsey Clark. If you look at his causes, his clients, his allies, they’ve included people like Moammar Gadhafi, Slobodan Milosevic, David Koresh, people that Americans sit back and think, wow, why would you ever want to support an individual like that? And now they see you, an American, a former leader in this country, supporting Saddam Hussein and thinking that you’re very unpatriotic.
Do you — what do you say to your critics?
CLARK: Well, I haven’t heard directly from them, but I would say that you do in life what you believe is right. And I think that if you’re going to have equal justice under law, it’s the cases where people have been demonized, where they’re hated and despised, that are most important, because that’s what really testing your system’s ability to provide a fair trial.
But in a case like this, involving Iraq, where I’ve spent a lot of my life over the last 10 or 15 years, it means peace itself. It means historic truth. And you can see how very difficult it is to hope for a fair trial.
I mean, just look at the passions in the country. Watch CNN any night and watch all the shooting and explosions and killing that’s going on. And you put into that, if it’s possible, an unfair trial, if you can complete it, if you can keep your defense lawyers alive.
One of my first goals is to try to get some protection for the defense lawyers. Two have been summarily executed. And you can’t have a trial where that’s the condition.
The court has protection. The prosecution has protection. The defense does not have protection, and they’ve got families here and they need protection. It really shouldn’t go forward until you have protection.
But anyway, a fair trial is essential to everything I believe in.
PHILLIPS: And sir, you mentioned just a moment ago that you have told me you have not heard from your critics. Just within the last half-hour, I had a chance to talk with former secretary of defense Frank Gaffney, also Jack Valenti, who you know well, who work would Lyndon Johnson, as did you. And I asked them both about what you are doing.
This is what Jack Valenti had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JACK VALENTI, FMR. LBJ AIDE: I don’t think anybody takes Ramsey seriously in this country, because you know whatever is the policy of any government, Democrat or Republican, Ramsey is going to be opposed to it. And after a while he debases the coin of credibility. He becomes more amusing than he is credible and a threat to anybody.
FRANK GAFFNEY, FMR. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: I agree with that, Jack. But I would say…
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIPS: What do you think about that, sir, with regard to former colleagues of yours saying that you don’t have any credibility?
CLARK: I didn’t recognize the voice, so I’m spared perhaps someone unpleasant feelings about…
PHILLIPS: It’s Jack Valenti, sir. It was Jack Valenti.
CLARK: But at least — oh, Jack Valenti.
PHILLIPS: Yes, sir.
CLARK: All right. He was not in the Department of Defense. I thought you said Department of Defense.
PHILLIPS: He was side by side with Frank Gaffney.
CLARK: Well, at last he can’t accuse me of being partisan if he says whether it’s a Democratic or Republican administration.
I believe if you really love your country, you can’t stand to see it doing something wrong. And you have every moral obligation to say so and to try to make it do right.
And I think our attack on Iraq was a war of aggression. It’s a violation of the U.N. charter, and it’s a supreme international crime, according to the Nuremberg Judgment. And those things matter to me.
PHILLIPS: Well, sir, let me ask you…
CLARK: It has caused enormous — enormous suffering here and death.
PHILLIPS: Well, let me ask you, do you think Saddam Hussein should still be running that country? Should he still be in charge of Iraq?
CLARK: Well, I say this, I don’t think George Bush has the right to decide that issue. You’ll remember with Aristide in Haiti this last — this last year, he said Aristide has to go. And look what’s happened to Haiti. Just blood in the streets, 8,000 U.N. forces there trying to maintain the peace because George Bush said Aristide’s got to go.
Well, we ought to take care of our own problems. We shouldn’t try to change regimes as they like to do. How many are they trying — are they threatening now with regime change?
The United States can be a positive force on earth, but it’s militarism is going to destroy the spirit of America. We spend more on the military than the rest of the world combined. And that’s a terrible tragedy for us and everybody else.
PHILLIPS: Sir, when is the last time you had the opportunity to speak to Saddam Hussein?
CLARK: Well, I was in court with him all day. And…
PHILLIPS: Did you talk with him?
CLARK: … we spoke briefly. Yes, briefly. We didn’t have a lot of time.
We had some time this morning before the court started — started. The court started late.
Then yesterday I flew in. Yesterday was Sunday, and I flew in, and we spent about four hours out at his cell out near the airport.
PHILLIPS: What did you say to him?
CLARK: If you’re going to represent someone…
PHILLIPS: What did you say to him, Mr. Clark?
CLARK: … you need to talk to him.
PHILLIPS: Sure, absolutely. What did you say to him? And what did he say to you?
CLARK: Well, four and a half hours, you got time for that?
PHILLIPS: I wish we did, because I’d sure love to know what took place in that conversation. Can you give me highlights?
CLARK: What a lawyer and clients talk about. I tried it tell him what I saw the important issues and strategies for the case.
First, we got to get protection for defense counselors or there’s not going to be a defense. They all will get killed.
You already had two out of — there were nine at the table today left, Iraqi defense lawyers, and another one wounded, and no protection. It’s pretty dangerous. A lot of people don’t like what they’re doing. So, you’ve got to get that protection.
Then you’ve got to show whether this court is legal or not. The court was created by the United States. It was created under the Bremer administration here.
The United States doesn’t have the power, the right to go to a foreign country and overthrow it and set up a court. War, by other means, to get its own enemies. Then you’ve got to determine whether it’s possible for that court to be independent.
Who’s paying for it, you know? How did it get there? Who chose it? How does it happen that the first investigative judge, chief investigative judge, is a nephew of Ahmed Chalabi, who was a CIA asset for years, if not now, and who’s a vowed enemy of the Saddam Hussein regime?
What kind of fairness is that? What’s the image of that? The United States was a part of that.
So those are the things that have to be talked about and looked into.
Thank you very much.
(bold mine)
