I haven’t written a lot of diaries, mostly because people here have much more insight, expertise, and perception than I. Nevertheless, I think I’ll write this one up because it something I have personal experience with and the subject came up on another thread. I’m a SERE grad, and although the program, especially the Resistance Training Laboratory (RTL, or mock POW camp) is classified, I think that I can comment on what’s been going on in the news about the program and correct a lot of misperceptions on the objective of torture.
I went through in November ’87. Some of the best training I’ve ever had as one really learns about oneself. I mean really learns about oneself. I think the human ego quite naturally, for survival reasons, blocks out and denies mental weaknesses but with this training one is confronted by one’s psychological weaknesses, which is a good thing in order to be able to compensate for them. That is the object of the training.
I was a weapons sergeant in 7th Special Forces Group (Airborne) [before I went to college and switched to the Navy as a Naval intelligence officer] but when I went through SERE, I back-doored my in while still a young infantry buck-sergeant in the 82nd Airborne Division.
The training was tough for me, psychologically, which made it even more worthwhile in my opinion. It was a cold November and I was the first to visit the “People’s Pond” by the infamous “bearded one”, a former A-Team master sergeant from Vietnam who had his camp overrun by NVA. A very big guy, and I am relatively small (5’6) and at the time had a build like a swimmer. I was never a Rambo type, that’s not me genetically, but as every SF guy or SEAL will tell you, it’s the size of the heart that matters; if you really want that profession you can succeed, it’s all about will-power. In anycase, I was stupid and while wearing hospital pajamas, boots without laces, and a black canvas hood over my head, I rose my hand when they asked who would not sign their signiture for blankets. Since you are not supposed to sign anything, I rose my hand (assuming everyone else would also) and suddenly found myself jerked up and flung into the icy water of the “Peoples Pond”, then “de-loused” by having a water hose put up under my hood (and those hoods stay wet for the entire duration!). During my first interrogation, my wet clothes were taken from me and the female interrogator made a big deal and laughed about my shrunken genitalia (yea, why don’t YOU go take a swim, bitch!). Sorry, a little mysogeny coming out.
Funny thing is, I never gave them the information of our “mission” in the scenario. Not because I didn’t break (I did, and I still have an aversion to ice cold water to this day), but because of the sleep deprivation and overwhelming stimuli, I simply FORGOT! Yep, and afterwards they said how well I did, heh. I guarantee you, I would’ve told them if I had actually remembered!
Most people break in the training, everyone has a breaking point. The object is to bounce back like a basketball and resist and live to come home with honor. Too many POWs in North Korea and Vietnam were psychologically ruined because they broke but still believed that they were traitors and weak and they were not prepared to deal with it. They thought interrogations were of the Hogan’s Heroes type and if you gave more than name, rank, and serial number you were a traitor. That may have worked fine in WWII but our cold war communist adversaries were a totally different animal altogether.
That’s why the late Col. Nick Rowe and his friend who was also a POW with him, Dan Pitzer, started the SERE program at Ft. Bragg. The program, though classified, is based on his experiences as a 5-year POW.
If you are truly interested in the SERE program, I highly suggest Rowe’s book “Five Years to Freedom”. It’s all in there.
See, the point of this diary is not that torture is used to get information (forget 24 folks) but rather it is used to turn a person, exploit them and indoctrinate them. There is no such thing as brain-washing, you can’t wash someone’s brain of their thoughts, but you can indoctrinate, just watch “Outfoxed” again. The torturers of today know that, they don’t expect the “ticking bomb” scenario, they want to drive a wedge between the victim and the other detainees; to exploit, indoctrinate, and turn them.
See, I learned that physical pain is NOTHING (but I confess to not have a branding iron applied to my genitals but that attitude sure adds spice to the sex life). No, the PSYCHOLOGICAL pain is much worse. Not knowing if you are ever going home to friends and family is much worse than the physical pain because at a point, the brain shuts off the pain receivers, but the psychological rollercoaster remains. These people at GITMO are not trying to commit suicide because of the physical pain, it’s the psychological pain that’s driving them; and consider that suicide is a mortal sin in Islam as it is in Judeo/Christianity and you have the extent of this psychological pain.
It’s a damn shame, to put it mildly, that these techniques were developed by our Communist “enemies” and now we’re the ones using them. I recognized the techniques immediately when Abu Graib first broke. I wanted to blog about it but I signed a sensitive information disclosure agreement and I wouldn’t get the same kid gloves treatment as Uncle Karl.
Like I said, read the book, it’s all in there.
So, I haven’t revealed anything classified, just anecdotal and philosphical in regards to the purpose of torture post-WWII. So to you DIS types – screw you, revoke my clearance, I don’t care, I live in Europe and am now a member of a socialist party – go do something usefull like catching Bin Laden or something.
X-posted at Kos & Eurotrib
Damn folks, no argument?
C’mon, someone must have an opposing view! I can’t believe that I sent out a diary and have NO comments.
C’mon, argue with me, please!
Great diary. I’m sorry I missed it until now.
I’m not about to argue with you since you endured it and I didn’t but I do have some questions.
Do you think it was easier in some respect to endure that experience knowing that you probably wouldn’t die and it was a limited duration of training? I respect what you went through but what do you think?
I’ve noticed in reports that countries like US and Canada supplied questions for interrogations that concerned some business intelligence information. How much of the recent/current torture interrogations try to get that sort of thing?
I agree that the mental-physical break is a goal of the interrogater for various reasons. Do you think the information culled and used later is known to be bullshit that was said just to get the torture stopped? Also, much of what I’ve read discusses the role of the interrogater being a savior for the victim even after being the one to administer the procedures. It was said that it’s being the one to stop it produces a loyalty and gratitude of sorts as in many abuses. Is that part of what you were saying?
Once again, thanks for your service.
Hey Rumi,
Sorry, just saw your questions so I will try to answer them.
Yes, I am sure it was easier to endure because we knew it would be over. However, they vary the time in the RTL by 2 days or so. They try to simulate the uncertainty of when it’s over as best they can. Additionally, there is a graduation of sleep depravation working up to the POW phase, including a 4 day escape and evasion exercise. So basically you have no food or sleep before capture. I was actually hallucinating seeing naked women in the patterns of the concrete of my cell wall!
Again, they try to give you just a taste to prepare you for the event of capture…I can’t imagine the real thing and I don’t honestly know if I could survive, but others have.
As for the business intel, I have no clue. They were more interested in becoming your friend if you signed certain papers, etc.
I think every interrogator knows that the average Joe, Tommy, Ivan, Fritz, or Abdul doesn’t know shit! I mean, how much does the average soldier (organized military or ad hoc terrorist) actually know? Nothing! I am convinced even the 9/11 hijackers, except for the leaders, probably didn’t know it was a suicide operation. It is common standard operating procedure to compartamentalize information. So any torture is used for exploitation and propaganda purposes (bad cop/good cop, etc.)
Being a savior is a way to exploit, so yes, that is something commonly used and used to drive a wedge between captives to use against one another.
BTW, I always love reading your comments on various posts and I always welcome a good argument, so please feel free (I never flame, even trolls).
No, thank you Tracy. I atually thought of you and your husband while writing this. As your husband is an aviator, I know it is a requirement that he has the SERE training, and that is a good thing. I imagine he has his own version of events to narrate.
BTW, how IS your family, how is your son doing?
I have had some health problems that are now being taken care of. My son is in the middle of a growth spurt, which is always nice to witness because normally he is a peckish eater. My husband is still teaching. Just told me a funny story about a Canadian student who has was born in the U.S. but his parents are Canadian. He was serving in the Canadian military and wanted to something more exciting than NATO peace keeping so he joined our military even though his friends all told him he was nuts. My husband said that he now agrees with them and called home to ask that one day he just happened to show back up in Canada could our military come and get him.