I sometimes laugh, but most times I just want to cry when I hear or read that some so called Christians are whining, complaining and generally lying about this so called war on Christmas or a war to marginalize Christianity in American society. If Christians want to actually see what a marginalized population looks like, I highly recommend that they look to the indigenous peoples of the United States or any of the other 44 nations that make up the worlds nations that were created by exterminating the original or indigenous peoples who populated them.
Christians who whine they are oppressed or marginalized probably would not have survived as a culture if they had to deal with the types of oppression, genocide and outright destruction of their very culture, the way the Fourth World has had to deal with these very same issues over the last 150 years. There now is an organization called Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization that has approximately 50 different Nationalities representing occupied nations, indigenous peoples and oppressed minorities. Many Native Americans now refer to themselves as the First World / First Peoples.
More after the fold
Try as I might, I just can’t get behind the idea that American Christians are indeed being persecuted for their beliefs or their religion. I can however see and have been informed by many older and some who are now deceased First Peoples that they have and continue to be persecuted, discriminated against and in many cases prohibited or have been prohibited from practicing their spiritual beliefs. Then there is the economic discrimination and outright fraud that occurs when Native peoples try to work some kind of economic development on what is supposed to be their land.
Here the issue is not having nation-state status, so no other country, government entity or business/bank in the world will do work with them. Indigenous peoples have no embassies, diplomats, or business representatives. They have no legal standing to create business compacts, levy taxes to create revenue, enter into political alliances, or be involved in othere areas that involve a fully qualified government.
What few investors and corporate firms that can be enticed to come in and set up businesses (a casino or hotel, for example), it is almost always a gamble that most of the proceeds will stay in the indigenous community. What has been the norm, however, are business rip-offs and exploitation. (See Jack Abramoff)
In most cases no economic development can be created unless the indigenous people own the land, which is not the case for a significant population, because of unresolved legal battles or the land being held as a trust for them by some government entity. (Indian Trust) Because the land is held in trust, banks refuse to loan money on it, and their only recourse is to lease it to the very same government entity that is supposed to protect it and them. This has ensured generations of exploitation of both the land and the peoples who are trying to gain support from the land. The ongoing effort of indigenous peoples is the fight for sovereignty and the right to self-rule.
No other group of people in the United States has less control over their lives than First Peoples. No other group of people have been discriminated against, had genocide practiced against them and had the full power of the Christian/Catholic faith and the US government try to destroy their very culture. They attempted to eradicate the tribal nature of the indigenous peoples and acclimate them into American society as Americans. The churches and the government went so far as to try and eradicate the very languages of the indigenous peoples of North America.
Like I said earlier, sometimes I just want to laugh at these misguided, misinformed and culturally handicapped Christians who continue to whine, cry, protest and otherwise make a nuisance of themselves by declaring there is a war against Christians and Christmas. Most times I just want grab them and show them the damage that their religion has perpetuated upon an entire race of human beings who simply wanted to insure that their way of life and their culture would survive.
So the next time you hear some poor discriminated against Christian whine about their poor religion being marginalized, point them to a computer and tell them to search for genocide against indigenous peoples. When they can show you or myself that they have been subjected to the kinds of hatred, punishment and outright killing because of their beliefs, then I will have some mercy in my heart for them. Until such time, I hope the whiners will be continually slapped down with the truth of what constitutes marginalization, discrimination and genocide against a whole race and culture of people.
Your wisdom shines through every word, Ghost.
As if stealing a peoples’ homeland weren’t bad enough, the colonists need to convince themselves that that they have a right to do it. This seems to always create the same inferiority/superiority myth:
They don’t use the land properly; we will make it productive.
They are heathens; God is on our side.
They are savages; we are civilized.
Collective guilt ought to spur people to stop the oppression and start restitution, but self deception is easier, and you get to keep all the stuff.
It’s worth noting that the view of First Peoples in the Americas as “savages” — or somewhat more politely, “primitive wanderers” — is based on an outdated understanding of the conditions prior to the arrival of European colonists. It’s pretty clear that there were several fairly advanced civilizations in the Americas, in many ways comparible to those in Europe. But diseases introduced by the arrival of Eurpopeans decimated those civilizations, and as settlers moved across the continents they encountered peoples who were essentially living in post-apocalyptic conditions.
How “civilized” would most Europe have looked at the time if the Black Death had claimed 90+% of the population instead of “only” ~~40%?
(I recommend Charles C. Mann’s 1491 for more information on pre-contact Americas.)
Hey ghost, thanks as always for the links. And I feel pretty dumb as I didn’t realize that most of the land wasn’t owned-no wonder the economic present and future is so bleak on reservations…I need to do more reading obviously.
As for so called Christians whining as you say about being marginalized…I truly do get so sick of hearing that-they don’t seem to have a clue into what constitutes actual discrimination and marginalization. I suspect also they don’t want to get a clue.
“And I feel pretty dumb as I didn’t realize that most of the land wasn’t owned”
Most of my native friends considered ownership of land as an alien concept…how can you own a rock [or a piece of land] when it was here before you and will be here after you? That makes sense to me, but thanks to Kant (another dead white guy of the Enlightenment as my mom says) we look at property and ownership as a divine right.
During my senior seminar on Kant I was known to mutter repeatedly, “Age of Reason, my ass.”
Oh, Immanuel Kant was a real pissant, who was very rarely sober…
The philospher’s song and the philospher’s soccer match. Fucking priceless! Ah, the days of intellegent TV that made you laugh!
😉
Highlands. But I’m not familiar enough with Highland culture to know if it was a genuine sense of the absurdity of owning creation, or simply a reaction to the painful reality of a handful of lords owning it all.
I think it is important, though, now that the concept of “ownership” has been established, to distinguish between COLLECTIVE ownership and individual ownership (i.e. private property).
All too often, the notion that “property ownership” is “alien” to Native conceptualization of the world is used as a way of denying the tribes sovereignty and land claims.
To me it is the difference between a sense of collective ownership (ownership more in the sense of “stewardship”) and the notion of private property.
The issue of rightful ownership of lands is a big one, and central to the whole sovereignty issue. It is not so much the notion of “ownership” that is alien to Native thought–it is the notion of PRIVATE property that is. Arguing that “ownership” is alien to Native thought just opens the door for those who would stand in the way of returning lands to which tribal entities still have claim, by the terms of treaties that have been unilaterally broken.
(to cite my favorite bumper sticker: You are on Indian land.–that applies to everyone in this hemisphere).
you make a good point and it is more sophisticated than what I attempted to say. I would concede to that.
First Nation peoples never felt they owned the land, they were given permission by Great Spirit to use the land to make their lives and the land a better place to live.
Only through the Anglo concept of ownership has the BIA, Office of the Interior and Justice Dept, been able to continuously steal away the rights of First Nation peoples.
I must say GDW, one thing I learned from my native friends, and this is off topic: is that when I hunt for food I always thank the spirit of the deer who gave its life for me to eat and bury a good portion of the meat in the ground. Now I am not sure why I should give a good hind quarter back to the earth but I do. My hunting friends think that I am crazy but I seem to remember this as something I should do. I also hunt for the venison that will fill my freezer for six months and not more.
we need to sustain ourselves and we grant Great Spirit an offering for the bounty that is provided.
I no longer hunt, yet whenever I see something that has been killed I offer a prayer for its spirit.
I have been very fortunate in having had some remarkable First Nation friends over the years. I am blessed by Great Spirit for having had the wisdom passed to me from such wonderful Human Beings.
Thanks JD for offering your own wisdom.
Wado
Gosh Ghost, I am not wise at all. If I were, I’d be a Buddha. No, I am just like every other human being trying to find that path, and I’ve found the yellow path has worked for me so far. But I am not wise in the least. Thank you for the clarification though, because I always feel that killing another sentient being will affect me but on the other hand one needs to eat. I mean, I don’t even kill insects, I just capture them in a glass and then release them outside the house. People think I’m nuts but after my reading of the Dalai Lama, I realize I could come back as one of those insects if my karma determines that.
I appreciate your complement but I just don’t feel like I really have wisdom to share, I wish i did though.
is not cognizant of their own wisdom, they simply live life to the best of their ability and to its fullest.
I have a feeling that it may be a bit like the way people are before they break a bone for the first time. YOu always hear people say “I think i broke my bone” when in fact it’s usually a sprain. But as most people who really have broken bones can attest, when ytou break somethign you can tell!
Marginalization works in much the same way. If your just feeling put out because your not getting your way (you in general sense here!) you can whine, and simper, and pout, and cry I think I’m marginilized! However, ask many LGBT people, people of color, Atheist, etc etc, and they will be able to tell you forcefully that they know.
And be prepared to get an earful
And the most disgusting thing is, GDW, is that what I’ve seen in my state of South Dakota is no better than some of the most impovershed places in Latin America I’ve been to. Ah, well, it seems the Anglos and Spanish have done the same thing to all the indiginous peoples of all of the Americas, but in a country as rich as the US – THERE IS NO EXCUSE!
I try hard to resist the jackass tendencies in my nature, I really do, but this is always the kind of thing that makes me want to build a lion pit out in the side yard just to make the difference between “persecuted” and “not persecuted” as crystal clear as possible for the whining class.
You’d be doing them a favor.
One of the cornerstone beliefs of fundamentalism is that persecution is proof of righteousness.
If they are NOT being shunned, decried and abused, they fear their commitment to god isn’t strong enough.
Manufacturing slights, grievences, and persecution when you’re virtually a state sponsored religion is necessary to maintain the facade of Christian martyrdom.
Because proselytising is also a tenet, we secular humanists are stiffling the free exercise of their religion if we don’t let them force their flavor of Christianity on the rest of us.
No one is preventing them from saying, “Merry Christmas” as often as they like, but that’s not enough; they want to make all of us say it.
You’d be doing them a favor.
My lion pit would be strictly for symbolic purposes, it’s not a lion pit I’d actually use. Do I look like a Republican to you? 😉
More seriously, of course I take your point and I agree. Apparently, my simple existence as a queer person is something many of them consider to be a grave offense, and the fact that I refuse to be shamed about it is something they label as a disrespect for their faith. Which, as far as I’m concerned, is batshit insane.
Be very careful, Indy.
This sounds like the ultimate fundie two-fer; wrestle a vile, disgusting, but attractive homo into the lion pit where both are devoured, thus ridding the world of filth in an act of strangely erotic Christian martyrdom.
ooooooooo….
Heh, I have the wrong structure for the sort of homoerotic imagery those types seem to prefer — my boobs would mess up the clean lines. See: Ashcroft, John for further information on boobophobia. 😉
Rewind……………
OK, Great Christian Patriarch nobly gives his life in the act of “converting” the proud, tastefully draped Lesbian beauty……….. no, no, I can’t go on.
Let’s coldcock him, heave him in the pit, and have the lioness pee on his leg.
… you are KILLING me because I just can’t stop laughing. First with “jackass tendencies” (I thought I was the only one) and then with “boobophobia”–it’s a wonder I haven’t spit wine out all over the keyboard.
Sorry for the mental image. This is a serious subject so I shouldn’t even be laughing, but still.
Carry on!
I’m glad I could make you laugh. 🙂
I use humor as a defense mechanism, really, so the more stressed out I am about a thing, the more likely I am to start cracking jokes. I certainly hope I haven’t unintentionally offended anyone, because I’m not making light of the topic either, at all. It’s just a way to lighten the tension around what I totally recognize is a real serious thing.
I know a wee bit about that. The hubby & I laughed during a serious moment in Syriana, but only because it was familiar.
There’s this scene when Bennett Holiday (Jeffrey Wright) rises to introduce himself at a big corporate meeting, and everyone (they’re all white except for Holiday) looks around as if to say, WTF is he doing here?
I know that scene because I’ve lived that scene. If you’ve been the fly in the buttermilk–and the buttermilk doesn’t expect you to look a fly–it can be uncomfortable for a minute.
And sometimes, you gotta laugh.
it depresses and pisses me off to hear these folks whine about “persecution” in the United States.
There are many places in the world where being a Christian can get you thrown in jail…or worse. For these folks to complain as they sit in their temperature-controlled churches, or drive off to brunch in their SUVs, or ignore the homeless family living out of their car in the mall parking lot really bugs me.
The history of Christianity has been filled with persecution…but has also been filled with stories of courage, faith and hope. If these Christians were faced with real persecution, how would they measure up?
Just my $0.02, of course…
Too many of ’em will whine about persecution as they kick the crap out of gays, burn crosses in front of black folks’ homes, burn mosques and synagogues, or at least knowingly nod and smile when they hear about such misdeeds. Yeah, real persecuted.
Christianity is an imperialistic faith. Christians are in fact commanded by Jesus to preach to the world, which makes it easy for some sects to take it as a mandate to convert.
This behavior is certainly responsible for some of the problem.
the sky’s change, and night becomes day, and day as night,
the sun will rise from the west,
the waters will run backwards,
the moon will hide,
all men will be weakened,
and learn to depend on each other, that are left,
only after that time,
will we be,
Mitakuye Oyasin
Wado My Friends
Thanks for this post. It is truly amazing how a group that makes up most of the population can somehow be the subject of a “war”. O’Reilly take note.
in a functional society.
What’s wrong with America is bigger than the entire Bush family, believe it or not.
You have to understand their perspective. Back when I was a kid (in the 50’s), Christians had the unfettered right to force their religious beliefs on anyone in both the public private spheres as they had no obligation to even recognize that there were other beliefs to be considered. Now that right has been somewhat abridged because they have forced to acquiesce to the legitimacy of other beliefs, which is the locus of their complaint of persecution.
This whole ‘war on Christmas’ thing is a barrel of bullshit. The christian extremists think religious freedom means that they have license to force their belief system down the throats of non-christians everywhere. It is contrived, disingenuous, and about as righteous as gang rape.
Ghostdancer, your descriptions of real religious suppression and genocide of indigenous people, when set next to the ridiculous “war on christianity”, puts everything in crystal clear perspective.
Thanks GDW for putting things in perspective. Personally, I find it ironic and disgusting for the white christian population of North American to suggest (let alone claim) that they are somehow disadvantaged, when their European culture has exploited native peoples ALL OVER THE WORLD to make them the richest culture controlling the most resources anywhere in history. Now comes a time when out of nothing more than a concession to other cultures, they could yield some of their arrogance to say something inclusive like Happy Holidays and they’re in a blue snit. What losers.
Thanks for reminding us of the First Nations/First Peoples in this country. There are people similarly situated throughout the world and I’ll just bet they’re all under the wheel of a culture of European origin.
I don’t have the source here with me to quote exactly, but there was a line in WTMWK? that went something like, “These Christians are mistaking people disagreeing with them for persecution.” Or something like that. Pretty common observation now, but back when I read that, it was like “Bingo!”
In fact, even more ironic than American Christians claiming discrimination is the fact that they are so vocally opposed to giving people “special treatment” because of their sexual orientation, race, gender, etc. and yet that is EXACTLY what they want.
when the only tool you have is a persecution complex, you tend to see every problem as a lion
First Nations. They are still struggling to settle land claims from colonial times. Theirs is a culture that was almost wiped out using every means possible and still it survived “on the margins” as you say. These are truly courageous people.
And yet, the former Lt. Governor Gordom of BC (supposedly representing the queen) made a speech saying that when the first explorers “discovered” BC, there was no one here, there was nothing here. You can imagine the outcry, especially from people who can trace their ancestry to the ice age, 15,000 years ago (and possibly before.)
Good slapdown ‘ghostdancer.’
It seems to me like Emperor Dobson and the rest of the right-wing fundamentalists are straining at gnats and swallowing camels. It is amazing how they strain at gnats like the so-called war on Christmas, while they swallow camels like the woman who was taken off life support against her will because she couldn’t pay her medical expenses.